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Author Topic: Would the Pope Be Infallible If He Became Orthodox?  (Read 22050 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2010, 10:25:42 AM »

If he did become Eastern Orthodox, he would most likely have to renounce the false teaching of an infallible human during his chrismation.

Ergo, the answer would be "No", from the Eastern Orthodox perspective.
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« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2010, 11:06:15 AM »


Last I heard the man who sits as the RC Pope is a "man", right?

How can a mere man be infallible?  I could never understand that concept.  What pride and self-arrogance to assume that a human can know it all and make no mistakes.

...and as for fearing that some day soon the Orthodox Church will "rejoin" the RC.

Well, the RC split off from Orthodoxy because of their pride and the gall to think they were infallible!

Orthodoxy is complete and has no need to "join" anyone.  However, our doors are open, and if they choose to enter through them, anyone can come and join us!

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« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2010, 11:23:33 AM »

Resist the urge...  Resist the urge...  Don't want to have to separate you two again. police

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« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2010, 11:26:30 AM »

How can a mere man be infallible?  I could never understand that concept.  What pride and self-arrogance to assume that a human can know it all and make no mistakes.

To be fair, that's not what Papal Infallibility means. The modern RC's have defined it so narrowly that it is basically meaningless now, ie the Pope is infallible except when he's not.
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« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2010, 01:43:23 PM »


Last I heard the man who sits as the RC Pope is a "man", right?

How can a mere man be infallible?  I could never understand that concept.  What pride and self-arrogance to assume that a human can know it all and make no mistakes.

...and as for fearing that some day soon the Orthodox Church will "rejoin" the RC.

Well, the RC split off from Orthodoxy because of their pride and the gall to think they were infallible!

Orthodoxy is complete and has no need to "join" anyone.  However, our doors are open, and if they choose to enter through them, anyone can come and join us!

Wink




Was it pride and arrogance that made the authors of scripture infallible when they wrote the scripture? No, it was the Holy Spirit.

What pride and arrogance it must take for non-Catholics to limit the power of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2010, 01:44:23 PM »

How can a mere man be infallible?  I could never understand that concept.  What pride and self-arrogance to assume that a human can know it all and make no mistakes.

To be fair, that's not what Papal Infallibility means.
True
The modern RC's have defined it so narrowly that it is basically meaningless now, ie the Pope is infallible except when he's not.
false
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« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2010, 01:45:32 PM »

Sincerely, if the Bishop of Rome were to speak ex-cathedra that the "Orthodox church is the true Church", and confess the Creed sans the Filioque; what then could be said?  It is an interesting scenario no matter which way you lean, is it not?
No, because if he became Eastern Orthodox, he would no longer be Catholic, and a non-Catholic cannot be the Pope. Therefore the ex-pope would not be infallible anymore.
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« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2010, 01:46:14 PM »


There is nothing in Catholic dogma that states that the best words possible will always be used when the Church defines doctrine.

Phew!  That's a major worry, when the Popes are not very competent with the Latin language!!

And especially because Mary tells us that the only way for the Popes to express Catholic teaching with any exactitude is in the Latin Language!   Sad
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« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2010, 05:42:46 PM »

I think its pretty easy to tell. When the Pope says something along the lines of "I solemnly declare, define, etc..." or "All Catholic must believe..." He is speaking ex cathedra.

The argument you are providing sounds alot like when we Catholics accuse EOs about not being clear on dogma.

Dear Papist,

I hope you don't think I'm repeating this question, but as Iconodule said, I'm beginning to feel as if this doctrine of Papal infallibility is no different than believing in episcopal or conciliar infallibility, that they're infallible only when they profess correct doctrine.  Then there's really no need to debate or discuss infallibility anyway.

Nevertheless, you said "All Catholics must believe"...what if, as an official decree, assuming ex cathedra, the Pope declares that "All Catholics must believe" something that goes against true Orthodox beliefs?
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« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2010, 06:16:35 PM »

The modern RC's have defined it so narrowly that it is basically meaningless now, ie the Pope is infallible except when he's not.
false

Could you please address the issue and explain why what he says is false?
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« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2010, 07:03:34 PM »


seem to me to hide the fact that you are terrified that there will be union in your lifetime
 

I think you have unrealistic hopes for union and perhaps the terror is more on your side where you fear that it will not come about in the quick timeframe you wish.

I think that last Friday's reception of Fr Gabriel (Bunge) into Orthodoxy shows that he, like me, sees little hope of union within our lifetime.  If he did he would have remained with the Roman Catholic Church.

It's all right, Peter.  I will have this to say and then I'll fold on this thread.

Father Ambrose:

There is no error in the Catholic Church.  There is nothing that needs to be altered in her doctrinal teachings.  She teaches the truth without fail.

There are jurisdictional concerns that she will have to concede and it is my firm belief that she will do so.

She will, in charity and faith,  find a way to resume communion with the least disruption possible to Orthodoxy, regardless of how difficult that might be for other Catholics to accept.  Do not let me fool you or anyone else.  My love for Orthodoxy is not shared among all Catholics.  Any resumption of communion will not be looked upon with favor by those Catholics who already dissent from the truths that Orthodoxy upholds in common with the Catholic Church.  Union may signal more formal schism within the Catholic Church though I pray not, and hope not.

There are many things for which the members of the Catholic Church must do penance, and since many of the truly guilty parties are dead, then it falls to faithful Catholics now living to seek reparations while we are alive and that means prayer, fasting and alms giving.  There are more people than just myself who are aware of these things and who are doing just what I suggest needs to be done.  But the circumstance of that need is not unique among either Catholic or Orthodox, one to the exclusion of the other.

This does not suit you.  I am well aware of that.  And you will do all that you can where you can to make the Catholic Church look as ugly and stupid and faithless as you can make it, but what you do not yet realize is that you struggle in vain.  This is all much bigger than you and your biases.

In Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit

Mary

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« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2010, 07:03:34 PM »


Last I heard the man who sits as the RC Pope is a "man", right?

How can a mere man be infallible?  I could never understand that concept.  What pride and self-arrogance to assume that a human can know it all and make no mistakes.

...and as for fearing that some day soon the Orthodox Church will "rejoin" the RC.

Well, the RC split off from Orthodoxy because of their pride and the gall to think they were infallible!

Orthodoxy is complete and has no need to "join" anyone.  However, our doors are open, and if they choose to enter through them, anyone can come and join us!

Wink


There is no teaching in the Catholic Church that says a mere man is infallible.  There is a teaching that says that the Pope by virtue of the Petrine Office teaches with the infallible voice of the Church, and when he professes to teach with the infallible voice of the Church, his teaching is protected from error by the power of the Holy Spirit.

That is quite a different thing from what you have said here.

Also if there is a resumption of communion, there will be no subsuming of anyone anywhere.  There would be an agreement concerning the issue of primacy in the hierarchy of the Church and jurisdictional issues.  And that would be sufficient IF the hierarchs are mutually agreed and call for resumption of communion based on a common core faith...and each would be free to express things as they deem meet.

Mary
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« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2010, 07:03:35 PM »

Catholics never seem clear about when their Pope is speaking ex catheda. When a past Pope has taught something they are uncomfortable with , it's not him speaking ex catheda. If the present Pope pronounces something they won't like, then it wont be ex cathedra... Very confusing.

If the current Pope vests and goes out on the balcony and reads from a signed statement that he is rejoining his fellow Bishops from the Orthodox Church, it would be pretty darn official from where i sit. No?

Nonetheless he would have become a schismatic by the very decision to do so before making the proclamation and thus he would not be the Pope when making the proclamation.

The teaching is that an heretical Pope cannot be deposed and he remains Pope BUT the Holy Spirit will protect him from making any formal heretical proclamations.

Therefore by definition, if the Pope were to declare Orthodoxy to be the true Church it can only be by the allowance of the Holy Spirit.

There is a significant difference between the Pope adopting erroneous theological teachings and him changing his view on who is the Church.
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« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2010, 07:03:35 PM »


Last I heard the man who sits as the RC Pope is a "man", right?

How can a mere man be infallible?  I could never understand that concept.  What pride and self-arrogance to assume that a human can know it all and make no mistakes.

It would appear to be within the realm of possibility if it is the work of the Holy Spirit preventing him from erring rather than his own wisdom.
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« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2010, 07:03:35 PM »

Was it pride and arrogance that made the authors of scripture infallible when they wrote the scripture?

Were they really infallible? Or was it more so the Church was infallible in its choice of which of these books to recognize?
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« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2010, 07:03:35 PM »

Nevertheless, you said "All Catholics must believe"...what if, as an official decree, assuming ex cathedra, the Pope declares that "All Catholics must believe" something that goes against true Orthodox beliefs?

I don't think that they think it would be possible.
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« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2010, 07:03:35 PM »

I think its pretty easy to tell. When the Pope says something along the lines of "I solemnly declare, define, etc..." or "All Catholic must believe..." He is speaking ex cathedra.

The argument you are providing sounds alot like when we Catholics accuse EOs about not being clear on dogma.

Dear Papist,

I hope you don't think I'm repeating this question, but as Iconodule said, I'm beginning to feel as if this doctrine of Papal infallibility is no different than believing in episcopal or conciliar infallibility, that they're infallible only when they profess correct doctrine.  Then there's really no need to debate or discuss infallibility anyway.

Nevertheless, you said "All Catholics must believe"...what if, as an official decree, assuming ex cathedra, the Pope declares that "All Catholics must believe" something that goes against true Orthodox beliefs?

Come on outside the box and try this one:

If two-thirds of the bishops of the Catholic Church came together in a synod and declared that it is time the Church began to ordain women.  Finally after all these centuries the sitting pope gets fed up with the nonsense, calls together his faithful remnant and composes a dogmatic constitution stating essentially that women are not proper matter for the sacrament of orders...period!!  Arguments over.  Dissenting bishops yield or go into schism.

Is the pope wrong because he has no personal infallibility above and beyond one, two, three bishops or a clear majority of bishops?

M.
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« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2010, 08:09:46 PM »

I think its pretty easy to tell. When the Pope says something along the lines of "I solemnly declare, define, etc..." or "All Catholic must believe..." He is speaking ex cathedra.

The argument you are providing sounds alot like when we Catholics accuse EOs about not being clear on dogma.

Dear Papist,

I hope you don't think I'm repeating this question, but as Iconodule said, I'm beginning to feel as if this doctrine of Papal infallibility is no different than believing in episcopal or conciliar infallibility, that they're infallible only when they profess correct doctrine.  Then there's really no need to debate or discuss infallibility anyway.

Nevertheless, you said "All Catholics must believe"...what if, as an official decree, assuming ex cathedra, the Pope declares that "All Catholics must believe" something that goes against true Orthodox beliefs?
That wouldn't happen because the Pope is infallible when spaking ex cathedra.
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« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2010, 08:40:20 PM »

I think its pretty easy to tell. When the Pope says something along the lines of "I solemnly declare, define, etc..." or "All Catholic must believe..." He is speaking ex cathedra.

The argument you are providing sounds alot like when we Catholics accuse EOs about not being clear on dogma.

Dear Papist,

I hope you don't think I'm repeating this question, but as Iconodule said, I'm beginning to feel as if this doctrine of Papal infallibility is no different than believing in episcopal or conciliar infallibility, that they're infallible only when they profess correct doctrine.  Then there's really no need to debate or discuss infallibility anyway.

Nevertheless, you said "All Catholics must believe"...what if, as an official decree, assuming ex cathedra, the Pope declares that "All Catholics must believe" something that goes against true Orthodox beliefs?
That wouldn't happen because the Pope is infallible when spaking ex cathedra.

Okay, I see now where it makes a difference.

Can this be said only for the Pope of Rome?  Or also for councils or a major See?
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« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2010, 09:07:10 PM »

If the Bishop of Rome is Apostolic how come he made changes to the previous 'infallible doctrines'?
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« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2010, 09:14:04 PM »

If the Bishop of Rome is Apostolic how come he made changes to the previous 'infallible doctrines'?
He didn't.
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« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2010, 09:18:34 PM »

He did. Here is a short list of the post-Schism reforms the Papacy made:
1) Immaculate Conception
2) Purgatory
3) Let us not forget Universal Jurisdiction
4) Individual (Papal) Infallibility
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« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2010, 09:22:22 PM »

He did. Here is a short list of the post-Schism reforms the Papacy made:
1) Immaculate Conception
2) Purgatory
3) Let us not forget Universal Jurisdiction
4) Individual (Papal) Infallibility
Just because they were not dogmatically defined until a certain point doesn't mean that the Church did not hold these beliefs before their dogmatic definition.
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« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2010, 09:22:34 PM »

Sincerely, if the Bishop of Rome were to speak ex-cathedra that the "Orthodox church is the true Church", and confess the Creed sans the Filioque; what then could be said?  It is an interesting scenario no matter which way you lean, is it not?

It's impossible. A person who had become convinced that the "Eastern Orthodox Church" is the Church would logically cease to be the Pope, and therefore could not make said proclamation ex cathedra.
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« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2010, 09:37:31 PM »

He did. Here is a short list of the post-Schism reforms the Papacy made:
1) Immaculate Conception
2) Purgatory
3) Let us not forget Universal Jurisdiction
4) Individual (Papal) Infallibility
Just because they were not dogmatically defined until a certain point doesn't mean that the Church did not hold these beliefs before their dogmatic definition.
If they were known and accepted beforehand they would be part of Other ancient Christian cannons. They aren't part of them so these ideas must be post schism
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« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2010, 10:22:29 PM »

If the Bishop of Rome is Apostolic how come he made changes to the previous 'infallible doctrines'?
He didn't.

But..at the Vatican One council there were great divisions among leading Bishops over these innovations. Several Bishops argued just as we have, that these idea's were not heard of previously.
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« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2010, 10:36:04 PM »

I highly recommend that the Orthodox read this:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=39:the-vatican-dogma&catid=14:articles&Itemid=2

It is a long read, but absolutely worth it. 
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« Reply #72 on: September 04, 2010, 01:16:26 AM »

I highly recommend that the Orthodox read this:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=39:the-vatican-dogma&catid=14:articles&Itemid=2

It is a long read, but absolutely worth it. 

Thank you for this.  I had it and I lost it and now you have found it again!   Smiley
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« Reply #73 on: September 04, 2010, 01:56:02 AM »

Also if there is a resumption of communion, there will be no subsuming of anyone anywhere.  There would be an agreement concerning the issue of primacy in the hierarchy of the Church...


When the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church eventually return to Orthodox, and we pray that they will since the Lord desires the unity of His worshippers, it will be the end of the peculiar institution which has come to be known as the papacy.   It will simply become defunct.   It will be of interest to historians as a fascinating time in the Church of the West but as the centuries and millennia roll by the papacy will become only a footnote in the history of Christianity.
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« Reply #74 on: September 04, 2010, 04:36:04 AM »

Fr. Gabriel Bunge OSB, a renowned Benedictine hermit and master of Patristic thought, was received into the Russian Orthodox Church a few days ago.

Praise God!!  Another Lev Gillet.

When will the Holy Father follow suit?
Well, if he were to do so, he would no longer be a member of the Catholic Communion and, thus, would no longer be the Pope.
Yes, as things stand now, I would agree with Papist.
However, I can imagine that by making use of the concept of development of doctrine, there might be a way of rewording a couple of RC teachings,  so that they would be acceptable to the E. Orthodox Church and then the Pope could become E. Orthodox and yet remain RC at the same time. Could this happen in the actual real world? Well,  as we know, there have been Greek Popes in the past. So let us suppose that a Catholic Melkite bishop were to become Pope of Rome and he were to subscribe to a Zoghby type initiative which was acceptable to both RC and EO. As you know the original 1995 Zoghby initiative said:
1.   I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches.
2.   I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation.

If then, both RC and EO were to agree on accepting the authority of the Pope of Rome, as it was before the separation, then, perhaps things could move more quickly in the attempt to reunify the Church.
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« Reply #75 on: September 04, 2010, 09:41:32 AM »

[size=10py]There would be an agreement concerning the issue of primacy in the hierarchy of the Church and jurisdictional issues.  And that would be sufficient IF the hierarchs are mutually agreed and call for resumption of communion based on a common core faith...[/size]

I am slightly surprised that your circle of Orthodox priest and theologian friends have not pointed out that this is incorrect.  This brings into focus the not insignificant difference in the understanding of the locus of authority in our two Churches.   It will not be a decision for the hierarchs but for the fullness of the entire Church.

If I may refer to the Patriarch of Constantinople....

"The words of Patriarch Bartholomew must not escape our attention, namely that the conscience of the Ecclesia has "greater authority even than that of an Ecumenical Synod" [xxix];

and for this reason he characterised as depredatory and void even Synods that had satisfied all the criteria and had been formed as Ecumenical (cf. Ferrara-Florence):

"Above the authority of the laws and holy canons one finds the moral jurisdiction of the entire fold (pleroma) of the Ecclesia, which is judicial.


"The words of Ecumenical Patriarch Demetrios sum up our ecclesiastical tradition:

"The final judgment on the results of the conducted dialogues and on the associated actions that are carried out is placed in the hands of the Churches, as governing and adjudicating instruments of divine inspiration, but also in the hands of the faithful lay people of God.  The latter, using their infallible criterion of their collective faith and at the same time their own conscience, on one hand accept the actions liked by God and on the other reject the ungodly concoctions" [xxxi].

http://www.eastern-orthodoxy.com/Co-prayers2.pdf




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« Reply #76 on: September 04, 2010, 12:02:45 PM »

The absurd Zoghby initiative to me is a glaring emblem of the chaos that lurks underneath the supposed unity guaranteed by the Pope. To say "I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation" is akin to saying "I am a law-abiding citizen of the United States, according to the Articles of Confederation." This initiative is a fantasy, it is nonsensical, and it is rebellious. The fact that the Melkite Synod could endorse such a statement and not face any discipline for it from Rome indicates that the Catholic communion is very much a choose-your-own-adventure communion as long as you swear loyalty to the Pope. 
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« Reply #77 on: September 04, 2010, 01:12:43 PM »

[size=10py]There would be an agreement concerning the issue of primacy in the hierarchy of the Church and jurisdictional issues.  And that would be sufficient IF the hierarchs are mutually agreed and call for resumption of communion based on a common core faith...[/size]

I am slightly surprised that your circle of Orthodox priest and theologian friends have not pointed out that this is incorrect.  This brings into focus the not insignificant difference in the understanding of the locus of authority in our two Churches.   It will not be a decision for the hierarchs but for the fullness of the entire Church.

From what I am hearing "on the street" from members of ROCOR the resumption of communion between the ROC and ROCOR is not fully received even yet.  I am sure it will be but there are still many grumblings to be heard and some do not accept the communion in their hearts.  These things seem to take time and gentle shepherding.  I was very impressed watching that process when it first became public news.

But I don't remember a popular vote.

Mary
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« Reply #78 on: September 04, 2010, 01:26:24 PM »

Reply #55 by ElijahMaria seals the deal for me. The Roman Catholic Church pays nothing more than lipservice to Orthodoxy.  Eastern Catholicism is just a scheme to get us in and destroy our Holy Orthodoxy.  Ultimately, Latin theology prevails.  Really, Eastern Catholicism is orthopraxy and heterodoxy.  Outwardly it all looks very similar, but inwardly it is infected by Latin theology.  Ultimately it exists with the understanding that Latin theology is always superior and must be bowed to when it contradicts Orthodox theology.  If this is the type of union you are expecting, the Orthodox enslaving themselves to Rome, it will never happen.  If this type of union occurs, it will not be true communion.  It will *look* like the Orthodox Church has united herself to Rome, but it will be a false church.  The true Church of Christ would never unite herself in such a manner. Pure blasphemy.  The Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Period.  Any Orthodox Christian that believes otherwise is an enemy of the Church. 
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« Reply #79 on: September 04, 2010, 07:35:25 PM »

Reply #55 by ElijahMaria seals the deal for me. The Roman Catholic Church pays nothing more than lipservice to Orthodoxy.  Eastern Catholicism is just a scheme to get us in and destroy our Holy Orthodoxy.  Ultimately, Latin theology prevails.  Really, Eastern Catholicism is orthopraxy and heterodoxy.  Outwardly it all looks very similar, but inwardly it is infected by Latin theology.  Ultimately it exists with the understanding that Latin theology is always superior and must be bowed to when it contradicts Orthodox theology.  If this is the type of union you are expecting, the Orthodox enslaving themselves to Rome, it will never happen.  If this type of union occurs, it will not be true communion.  It will *look* like the Orthodox Church has united herself to Rome, but it will be a false church.  The true Church of Christ would never unite herself in such a manner. Pure blasphemy.  The Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Period.  Any Orthodox Christian that believes otherwise is an enemy of the Church. 
I would not be in favor of the enslavement of the Orthodox Church to Rome. Was it that way before 1054? Why not go with the pre-1054 model?
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« Reply #80 on: September 04, 2010, 08:00:58 PM »

As dramatic as this sounds, I think Archbishop Nicetas words still ring true:

Quote
We do not deny to the Roman Church the primacy amongst the five sister patriarchates; and we recognize her right to the most honorable seat at an ecumenical council. But she has separated herself from us by her own deeds, when through pride she assumed a monarchy which does not belong to her office. How shall we accept decrees from her that have been issued without consulting us and even without our knowledge? If the Roman Pontiff, seated on the lofty throne of his glory, wishes to thunder at us and, so to speak, hurl his mandates at us from on high; and if he wishes to judge us and even to rule us and our churches, not by consulting with us, but at his own arbitrary pleasure; then what kind of brotherhood, or even what kind of parenthood can this be? We would be the slaves, not the sons, of such a church. And the Roman seat would not be the pious mother of sons but a hard and imperious mistress of slaves.

Rome ultimately wants us to submit.  We are told we can keep our theology and practices and all that jazz, but at the same time we are being told that Roman teaching is the correct teaching and we are the ones in error.  How can we keep our theology while simultaneously being told that we are in error or that are theology is underdeveloped?  It doesn't make any sense to me.  It seems like a poor attempt at slight of hand.  Actually, it probably isn't a poor attempt, as many are falling for it. :-/

I feel like the Romans are being deceptive.  Father Ambrose is trying to get some answers (not in the best and nicest of ways *IMO*, but I can't really blame him) and all he gets is the runaround.  I understand his frustration.  I have been quietly following ElijahMaria's responses for a while now, with the sincere desire to come to a mutual understanding, and it has proven fruitless.  I have been watching her responses to questions asked of her with the sincere hope that she'll give a satisfying answer and I am continually let down.  The conclusions I have drawn is that 1) either Roman Catholic teaching is extremely esoteric and is only truly known by the privileged few or 2) there is some sort of deception going on. 

Of course I might be wrong in my perception, but these are my honest feelings.  I harbor no ill will towards anyone. 

John

P.S. To clarify and be fair to ElijahMaria, I have never spoken to her directly.  I have been satisfied with the questions asked of her here publically by other members, which is the reason why I haven't engaged her one-on-one.  My comments only relate to what she has stated publically here on the forum. 
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« Reply #81 on: September 04, 2010, 08:10:04 PM »

[size=10py]There would be an agreement concerning the issue of primacy in the hierarchy of the Church and jurisdictional issues.  And that would be sufficient IF the hierarchs are mutually agreed and call for resumption of communion based on a common core faith...[/size]

I am slightly surprised that your circle of Orthodox priest and theologian friends have not pointed out that this is incorrect.  This brings into focus the not insignificant difference in the understanding of the locus of authority in our two Churches.   It will not be a decision for the hierarchs but for the fullness of the entire Church.

From what I am hearing "on the street" from members of ROCOR the resumption of communion between the ROC and ROCOR is not fully received even yet.  I am sure it will be but there are still many grumblings to be heard and some do not accept the communion in their hearts.  These things seem to take time and gentle shepherding.  I was very impressed watching that process when it first became public news.

But I don't remember a popular vote.

In that case, you do not remember the process.

In the first place, assemblies were held on the diocesan level which included the priests of the diocese and the Starostas (lay Presidents of the parishes) often with some additional layperson for each parish.

Then there was a massive assembly in San Francisco which comprised delegates from all the dioceses around the world, both priests and laypeople, as well as the abbots of monasteries and monks and nuns.   All those who wished to speak were given a chance to do so.

Then they voted.  The voting was positive and in favour of the union.

I am sure there are still articles on the Net speaking of this process.... I'll go and look.


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« Reply #82 on: September 04, 2010, 10:35:51 PM »

However, I can imagine that by making use of the concept of development of doctrine, there might be a way of rewording a couple of RC teachings,  so that they would be acceptable to the E. Orthodox Church and then the Pope could become E. Orthodox and yet remain RC at the same time.

What do you mean "the Pope could become E. Orthodox"? Do you mean leave the Roman communion and join the Byzantine communion?

Could this happen in the actual real world? Well,  as we know, there have been Greek Popes in the past. So let us suppose that a Catholic Melkite bishop were to become Pope of Rome and he were to subscribe to a Zoghby type initiative which was acceptable to both RC and EO. As you know the original 1995 Zoghby initiative said:
1.   I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches.
2.   I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation.

If then, both RC and EO were to agree on accepting the authority of the Pope of Rome, as it was before the separation, then, perhaps things could move more quickly in the attempt to reunify the Church.

If the Roman dogmas were rephrased in a way that was acceptable to the Byzantines, then it would become clear that the core substance of them was orthodox all along, and as a consequence that the Byzantines broke from the Roman church without giving its doctrines proper analysis (essentially a form of schism). As a consequence, it would essentially be the Byzantines joining the Roman communion; there would be no one "becoming Eastern Orthodox".
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« Reply #83 on: September 04, 2010, 10:35:51 PM »

Reply #55 by ElijahMaria seals the deal for me. The Roman Catholic Church pays nothing more than lipservice to Orthodoxy.  Eastern Catholicism is just a scheme to get us in and destroy our Holy Orthodoxy.  Ultimately, Latin theology prevails.  Really, Eastern Catholicism is orthopraxy and heterodoxy.  Outwardly it all looks very similar, but inwardly it is infected by Latin theology.  Ultimately it exists with the understanding that Latin theology is always superior and must be bowed to when it contradicts Orthodox theology.  If this is the type of union you are expecting, the Orthodox enslaving themselves to Rome, it will never happen.  If this type of union occurs, it will not be true communion.  It will *look* like the Orthodox Church has united herself to Rome, but it will be a false church.  The true Church of Christ would never unite herself in such a manner. Pure blasphemy.  The Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  Period.  Any Orthodox Christian that believes otherwise is an enemy of the Church. 
I would not be in favor of the enslavement of the Orthodox Church to Rome. Was it that way before 1054? Why not go with the pre-1054 model?

You could, but it could only be done in recognition that one party deviated from that model and thus was outside the Church and thus must rejoin it.
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« Reply #84 on: September 04, 2010, 10:35:52 PM »

Quote
We do not deny to the Roman Church the primacy amongst the five sister patriarchates; and we recognize her right to the most honorable seat at an ecumenical council. But she has separated herself from us by her own deeds, when through pride she assumed a monarchy which does not belong to her office. How shall we accept decrees from her that have been issued without consulting us and even without our knowledge? If the Roman Pontiff, seated on the lofty throne of his glory, wishes to thunder at us and, so to speak, hurl his mandates at us from on high; and if he wishes to judge us and even to rule us and our churches, not by consulting with us, but at his own arbitrary pleasure; then what kind of brotherhood, or even what kind of parenthood can this be? We would be the slaves, not the sons, of such a church. And the Roman seat would not be the pious mother of sons but a hard and imperious mistress of slaves.

The first sentence does not appear consistent with the rest of the paragraph. If all of the rest is true, then the only logical conclusion is to deny the Roman church primacy and to deny a right to the most honorable seat.
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« Reply #85 on: September 05, 2010, 02:36:38 AM »


Father Ambrose is trying to get some answers (not in the best and nicest of ways *IMO*, but I can't really blame him) and all he gets is the runaround.  I understand his frustration.  . 

I confess to being brought up in a form of Christianity in Serbia which is not as
passive as you Russians. I remember Mati Fevronia attacking a communist
with a milking pail when he made a derogatory remark about the value of
monastic life, and I have been on the streets of Cacak with the Dean of the
area when he punched a Jehovah's Witness on the nose after he had made nasty
remarks about Orthodoxy and the God worshipped by the Serbs.

So yes, I am contaminated by such experiences and do not have the innate
passivity and irenicism which animates the Russian soul. Couple that with
an Irish background where the Irish monks thoroughly enjoyed making war on
one another's monasteries and I am, I fear, quite incorrigible..

Do you know that the Irish (when Orthodox) did not immerse the right arm of a
baby boy in the baptismal font.  They kept it out and kept it unbaptized because
it would be needed to wield a sword.

Hmonk Ambrose

"Raiding and Warring in Monastic Ireland "
http://www.deremilitari.org/fitzpatrick.htm

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« Reply #86 on: September 05, 2010, 02:44:58 AM »

Back to the OP..... it would be nice if when the Pope becomes Orthodox he stays infallible long enough to decide on the question of toll houses.
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« Reply #87 on: September 05, 2010, 02:54:56 AM »

Quote
Do you know that the Irish (when Orthodox) did not immerse the right arm of a baby boy in the baptismal font.  They kept it out and kept it unbaptized because it would be needed to wield a sword.

What if the lad turned out to be left-handed?  Wink Tongue laugh laugh
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« Reply #88 on: September 05, 2010, 02:56:23 AM »

Quote
Do you know that the Irish (when Orthodox) did not immerse the right arm of a baby boy in the baptismal font.  They kept it out and kept it unbaptized because it would be needed to wield a sword.

What if the lad turned out to be left-handed?  Wink Tongue laugh laugh

Probably they gave him to the Druids.   laugh
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« Reply #89 on: September 05, 2010, 07:46:51 AM »

When there was any unsettling and missunderstanding in the early Church people pled to the authority of the Patriarch of Rome.. He was the one who clarified the conflicts in theology through the "cathedra" of Peter.. Peter who was urged by Christ to strengthen his brethren and to lead and feed His flock.. In the same manner the bishop of Rome in the early Church completed and made the declaration of Orthodoxy clear and whole.. He represented "the Rock" and nectar of the Orthodox faith.. So the papal infaibility can be invoked only when dealing with heresy.. So if the Pope will become Orthodox he can still be regarded in a way a source of infaibillity.. But we have greater things to ponder than this.. I don`t think that the times we are in are waiting for the Pope to become Orthodox..
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