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Author Topic: Ukrainian Orthodoxy  (Read 7418 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2010, 09:57:58 PM »

I'd quote how often you bring up Russians being "Ugro-Finns"

In 988, of course. But since then, the population of "Rossiya" has received a lot of Rus'

like all the Rurikids. Including SS Volodymyr, Boris and Hlib and Yaraslav the Wise.

Quote
(=/=Ukrainian and Belarussian) genes.

Fixed that for you. No Ukrainains nor Belarussians (nor Russians for that matter) to have genes in 988. Just Norsified Ugro-Finn Rus' being Slavicized by their Slavic subjects.

Since you brought them up, I've noticed that Ukrainians who predicate their identify on {trying) destroying the Russians' having hit upon trying to recruit the Belorussians to their cause.  So far all Belorussians I know or have heard of want no part in it.  The only thing ever approaching it was a pamphlet put out by the Belarus in Chicago in submission to the Vatican at the celebration of the Millenium Baptism of Rus': it disowned any connection to St. Volodymyr/Vladimir (I could put in Uladzimi/er, but I don't know if it is appropriate in this context).

As for 988




Oh dear. Is that the Vyatichi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyatich
I see, those West Slavs turned East Slavs to populate Vladimir-Suzdal, including the Moscow basin, building those Slavic grads, like Moskva? Not to mention all those Slav Krivichs and Ilmen Slavs (who, like the Vyatichi, were related to West Slavs, in this case the Polabians/Wends, the ancestors of the Sorbs) in what was Rus', here in its heyday, now Russia?

Yes, I know that doesn't fit in the U"O"C-KP world view.

Quote
Please stop obfuscating the topic.

What topic would that be? The KP propaganda tried to impune Moscow's roots in a misdirected attempt to counter its policies. I just responded.

Thus it is not I who has obfuscated.  Language is passed on by the tongue and ear, not the genitals, and Faith comes from preaching, not copulation.  Why the U"O"C-KP feels compeled to malign the Fino-Ugric peoples with some sort of Slavic master race nonssense, and even more ludicrous, believes this is going to help the Ukrianian Orthodox cause...

Quote
You really look professional, you know. Don't blow your cover. Smiley
Yes. Accusing as a Soviet agent everyone not in U"O"C-KP lock step...it's worked so well.  That's why everyone in the Orthodox world is clamoring to ally with Filoret against Moscow.

Btw, is there a policy on refering to canonically deposed bishops by their former or purported titles?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 10:12:54 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2010, 05:02:10 AM »

All of this history is irrelevant. In 1000, our Slavic ancestors were still in tribal phase.
I like how Ialmisry colors history. (sarcasm) In 1600, there was no such thing as ukrainian/polish nationalism.
No in 1600, 1800 AD no one in Belarus and Ukraine felt threathened by the existence of nonbelievers in their neighborhood. In 1850, in the western gubernias of the Russian Empire, which is now called Belarus and central Ukraine, there were 10.300.000 million inhabitants of which 61,7% Orthodox, 28% Roman Catholic,  Jews 6% and Protestants 4%. But then came Bolshevism and Banderism and destroyed our quaint paradise.
The problem in Ukraine today is not about the dregowicze, krywiczanie, and etc but Banderism, UPA-OUN.

The face of the problems in Ukraine, Stepana Bandera.
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« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2010, 08:10:12 AM »

"And these earthly countries and families are the playthings of this our temporary life and scene. For our country is whatever each may have first occupied, either as tyrant, or in misfortune; and in this we are all alike strangers and pilgrims, however much we may play with names." - St. Gregory the Theologian

Amen. IMHO mixing faith with nationalism/patriotism (not necessarily equivalent to ethnicity) creates a toxic stew that only benefits the enemies of truth.
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« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2010, 09:52:02 AM »

"And these earthly countries and families are the playthings of this our temporary life and scene. For our country is whatever each may have first occupied, either as tyrant, or in misfortune; and in this we are all alike strangers and pilgrims, however much we may play with names." - St. Gregory the Theologian

Amen. IMHO mixing faith with nationalism/patriotism (not necessarily equivalent to ethnicity) creates a toxic stew that only benefits the enemies of truth.

This is perfectly true!  This is at the root of most Church related problems these days...and not just in Ukraine.

However, once again, why is it okay for everyone else to have their "national" Church, except Ukraine?

Why is Iaslamry so against Ukraine?

Why can everyone be a Romanian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc...but, so many are up in arms against Ukrainian Orthodox?

That's what I cannot understand.

I would not attend a non-canonical Church.  Therefore, I would not be found in a KP parish (although I have visited them on occasion). 

However, I await the day that Ukraine has a canonical Church.

Won't all the naysayers be surprised when it comes to pass?  Just like Communism fell without a drop of blood being shed in Ukraine, so, will her Church be restored.

Lord, have mercy and bless my homeland!

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« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2010, 10:01:00 AM »

"And these earthly countries and families are the playthings of this our temporary life and scene. For our country is whatever each may have first occupied, either as tyrant, or in misfortune; and in this we are all alike strangers and pilgrims, however much we may play with names." - St. Gregory the Theologian

Amen. IMHO mixing faith with nationalism/patriotism (not necessarily equivalent to ethnicity) creates a toxic stew that only benefits the enemies of truth.

This is perfectly true!  This is at the root of most Church related problems these days...and not just in Ukraine.

However, once again, why is it okay for everyone else to have their "national" Church, except Ukraine?

Why is Iaslamry so against Ukraine?

Why can everyone be a Romanian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc...but, so many are up in arms against Ukrainian Orthodox?

That's what I cannot understand.

I would not attend a non-canonical Church.  Therefore, I would not be found in a KP parish (although I have visited them on occasion).  

However, I await the day that Ukraine has a canonical autocephalous (my addition - mike) Church.

Won't all the naysayers be surprised when it comes to pass?  Just like Communism fell without a drop of blood being shed in Ukraine, so, will her Church be restored.

Lord, have mercy and bless my homeland!



LizaSymonenko, don't you understand that everyone here except from Heorhij, cossack 316 and stashko agrees with you (especially with the parts I've bolded)?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 10:02:11 AM by mike » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2010, 10:36:12 AM »


Smiley

Thanks for making that clear to me, Mike.

I guess all the rhetoric spewed against Ukraine, and that Ukrainians are really Russians over and over, had clouded my vision.

Honestly.

I am relieved that the majority are with me in praying for a canonical autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church!

I love you all! 

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« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2010, 11:02:34 AM »


Smiley

Thanks for making that clear to me, Mike.

I guess all the rhetoric spewed against Ukraine, and that Ukrainians are really Russians over and over, had clouded my vision.

Honestly.

I am relieved that the majority are with me in praying for a canonical autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church!

I love you all! 


Since you understand it clearly or he clarified it for you,Can You Please explain it to me what mike posted ..He Mentioned me and a few other , i didn't understand ,what he ment by it..., Huh
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« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2010, 11:49:09 AM »

All of this history is irrelevant. In 1000, our Slavic ancestors were still in tribal phase.
I like how Ialmisry colors history. (sarcasm) In 1600, there was no such thing as ukrainian/polish nationalism.
No in 1600, 1800 AD no one in Belarus and Ukraine felt threathened by the existence of nonbelievers in their neighborhood. In 1850, in the western gubernias of the Russian Empire, which is now called Belarus and central Ukraine, there were 10.300.000 million inhabitants of which 61,7% Orthodox, 28% Roman Catholic,  Jews 6% and Protestants 4%. But then came Bolshevism and Banderism and destroyed our quaint paradise.
The problem in Ukraine today is not about the dregowicze, krywiczanie, and etc but Banderism, UPA-OUN.

The face of the problems in Ukraine, Stepana Bandera.

Beg to differ. OUN stands for "Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists," a political party active in the 1920-s - 1940-s, acting mostly on those Ukrainian lands that were ceded to Poland in 1921 (the "Curzon Treaty"). OUN's political platform was based on the idea that the survival and the prosperity of the independent, sovereign, free Ukrainian state is one most noble and important goal of life of a Ukrainian person. Stepan Bandera was one of the leaders of OUN (other notable leaders were Andriy Mel'nyk and Yaroslaw Stets'ko). Bandera and Mel'nyk were arrested by Nazis in 1941 and spent the rest of the WWII in Nazi concentration camps. Bandera was later assassinated by a Soviet agent in West Germany.

UPA stands for "Ukrayins'ka Povstans'ka Armiya" (Ukrainian Insurgent Army), the OUN's military wing organized in 1942 in Ukrainian lands then occupied by the German army. Its goal was to fight the German occupiers by destroying their infrastructure, communications etc., and by dealing swift blows to the occupiers' police and anti-guerilla forces. UPA fought under a red and black flag and a slogan, "Za Volyu i Krashche Zhyttya" ("For Freedom and Better Life"). In 1944, UPA counted over 100,000 men and women, being one of the biggest (if not the biggest) anti-Hitler guerilla armies in the world. Roman Shukhevych was UPA Comander-in-Chief till 1950.

Neither OUN nor UPA were "criminal," as some try to prove today. In 1943-4, when the German army began its retreat from Ukraine and when the lands formerly occupied by Germany became the prey of Stalin's genocidal regime, UPA heroically fought against Stalin's special secret police, NKVD. That fight continued well in to the 1950-s (which would be, of course, impossible if the undergound fighters did not receive a colossal help of the local Ukrainian population). Shukhevych was ambushed and killed in 1950, and then Vasyl' Kuk became the Commander-In-Chief, till approximately 1955-56 when the last UPA fighter groups were destroyed by the overwhelming force of the NKVD and the Soviet Army.

Unfortunately, some local criminal elements robbed and killed people under the guise of "UPA," and special Strybky troops were organized and trained by the NKVD to impersonate UPA fighters, hence the horrible libel that UPA were killers of innocent Jews and/or Poles. Just one "wonderful" example of how skilful the Soviets were in libeling UPA and how easily people bought their lies. In 1944 or 45, Polish sources published a photograph showing dead chidren hanging from a tree. The "explanation" under that photograph was that the UPA fighters were hanging Polish children on trees and calling these trees "an alley to Ukrainian Independence." Later, in the 1960-s, POLISH doctors-psychiatrists showed that this photograph was actually taken from a psychiatric journal published in the 1920-s, and the dead children on the photograph were not Polish, actually victims of paranoid schizophreniac.

Like one old Canadian Ukrainian friend of mine said, "if one could line up all forgeries done by the NKVD/KGB about OUN and UPA, the line would definitely go all the way to the Moon, or maybe even to Mars."
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« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2010, 11:53:47 AM »

LS -However, once again, why is it okay for everyone else to have their "national" Church, except Ukraine?

I don’t think that they do.  Even though I am a citizen of the United States, I vehemently oppose the creation of an “American Orthodox Church”, and even have little use for the OCA.

LS-Why is Iaslamry so against Ukraine?

He is not, and nothing that he has written can be taken as such by a reasonable person.

LS-Why can everyone be a Romanian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc...but, so many are up in arms against Ukrainian Orthodox?

Again, we are not against a Ukrainian Orthodox Church.  Some, like me, actually support the idea and hope that it happens soon.  What do not like is schism and having deposed clergy make up their own church, regardless of how many supposedly agree with them.

LS-I would not attend a non-canonical Church.  Therefore, I would not be found in a KP parish (although I have visited them on occasion).

That is because you are a true daughter of the Orthodox Church.

LS-However, I await the day that Ukraine has a canonical Church.

Me too!  With emphasis on “canonical”.

LS-Won't all the naysayers be surprised when it comes to pass?  Just like Communism fell without a drop of blood being shed in Ukraine, so, will her Church be restored.

There will be no surprise for me.  I do disagree that “her Church will be restored” because it already exists.  All those who are in communion with the Church are the Body of Christ regardless of what national moniker they want to put in front.  What I do believe will happen is that the Ukrainian people will get to govern their own affairs while still remaining in communion with the rest of the Orthodox world.

LS-Lord, have mercy and bless my homeland!

Amen!
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« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2010, 12:41:33 PM »

All of this history is irrelevant. In 1000, our Slavic ancestors were still in tribal phase.

No.  By that time (1000) the Slavs had plenty of grads

developed into cities, polities centered on them (the Norse called Kievan Rus' "the Realm of Cities" Gardariki), and states.  The Slavs had already slavicized the First Bulgarian Empire and its Czars. Kievan Rus' already had developed appanage principaliities with a center at Kiev. Mieszko I and Boleslaw I had formed the Polish State, following the establishment of the Kingdom of Bohemia, itself following the uniting of Slavic tribes into Greater Moravia in the 9th century, itself following the tribal confederation of the Frank Samo (623-658). A sign of this is the adoption of the Germanic term for king, *kuningaz, which became kǔningǔ amongst the Slavs.

Quote
I like how Ialmisry colors history. (sarcasm) In 1600, there was no such thing as ukrainian/polish nationalism.

By 1600 Polish nationalism was developed, along with Polonization, epitomized by the Union of Lubin (1569), secular precursor (at least for the Ruthenians) of the infamous "Union" of Brest (1595-6). 1697, when Polish replaced Ruthenian as the official language of Lithuania, marks a cut off. But that was just another nail in the coffin of a Ukrainian-Ruthenian-Polish common nationalism, a coffin brought out by St. Peter Movila's failure (though through no lack of trying) to form an Orthodox identity in the Polish Crown Lands-which contributed to the success of a seperate Ukrainian indentity-and the failure of the Treay of Hadiach to unite the szlachta and Cossaks-which led to both the seperate Ukrainian identity and the union with Russia.

Quote
No in 1600, 1800 AD no one in Belarus and Ukraine felt threathened by the existence of nonbelievers in their neighborhood.

The Treaties of Hadiach and Pereyaslav show otherwise: Hadiach voided the "Union" of Brest, Pereyaslav united the Cossaks to the Orthodox Czar against the Vatican's agent, the King of Poland.

Quote
In 1850, in the western gubernias of the Russian Empire, which is now called Belarus

It is called Belarus because it is Belarus.



Quote
and central Ukraine,

That is because it is in the center of Ukraine.


Quote
there were 10.300.000 million inhabitants of which 61,7% Orthodox, 28% Roman Catholic,  Jews 6% and Protestants 4%.

In 1897 the Czar ruled 11,467,994 adherents to the Vatican and 7,931,307 speakers of Polish (the number, it is claimed, is underrepresented) and  1,210,510 speakers of Lithuanian. I'm not sure Orthodox Poles existed at the time (someone correct me if I am wrong, but with specific facts please), and the Lithanian ones had been mostly obliterated by the Poles during the Commonwealth. Since they were mostly in what of present day Poland in Lithania was under the Czar, and the number of Belorussians (mostly in Belorussia) was 5,885,547, that doesn't leave enough for over 3 million in subjegation to the Vatican in Belorus and Central Ukraine.  Were are you getting your "figures"?

Quote
But then came Bolshevism and Banderism and destroyed our quaint paradise.

The Czar destroyed that Polonizers paradise: when, for instance, the Latin Poles pushed the "beatification" of Josaphat, the Ruthenians refused to pay for it, maintained a silence over the event in Rome, and increasingly turned to the Czar. The Romanians and Serbs did their part in Bukowina and Karlovcsi giving what cover it could to the return to Orthodoxy of the East Slavs, as the Poles were building their Union of Lublin Mound to dominate Lviv.

Quote
The problem in Ukraine today is not about the dregowicze, krywiczanie, and etc but Banderism, UPA-OUN.

The face of the problems in Ukraine, Stepana Bandera.
No, there is another rogue gallery:

The last belongs here mostly for making the first two possible.  A disloyal son of Lithuania, he epitomizes why the Lithuanians are no fonder of the memory of the Commonwealth than the Ukrainians.
Some would like to add

but he solved Ukraine's Polish problems for Kiev. And left a monument to Polish arrogance

in place of a monument of Polish Orthodoxy

Dziekuja Dmowki, Grabski and Pilsudski.
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« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2010, 01:02:49 PM »



Beg to differ. OUN stands for "Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists," a political party active in the 1920-s - 1940-s, acting mostly on those Ukrainian lands that were ceded to Poland in 1921 (the "Curzon Treaty"). OUN's political platform was based on the idea that the survival and the prosperity of the independent, sovereign, free Ukrainian state is one most noble and important goal of life of a Ukrainian person. Stepan Bandera was one of the leaders of OUN (other notable leaders were Andriy Mel'nyk and Yaroslaw Stets'ko). Bandera and Mel'nyk were arrested by Nazis in 1941 and spent the rest of the WWII in Nazi concentration camps. Bandera was later assassinated by a Soviet agent in West Germany.

UPA stands for "Ukrayins'ka Povstans'ka Armiya" (Ukrainian Insurgent Army), the OUN's military wing organized in 1942 in Ukrainian lands then occupied by the German army. Its goal was to fight the German occupiers by destroying their infrastructure, communications etc., and by dealing swift blows to the occupiers' police and anti-guerilla forces. UPA fought under a red and black flag and a slogan, "Za Volyu i Krashche Zhyttya" ("For Freedom and Better Life"). In 1944, UPA counted over 100,000 men and women, being one of the biggest (if not the biggest) anti-Hitler guerilla armies in the world. Roman Shukhevych was UPA Comander-in-Chief till 1950.

Neither OUN nor UPA were "criminal," as some try to prove today. In 1943-4, when the German army began its retreat from Ukraine and when the lands formerly occupied by Germany became the prey of Stalin's genocidal regime, UPA heroically fought against Stalin's special secret police, NKVD. That fight continued well in to the 1950-s (which would be, of course, impossible if the undergound fighters did not receive a colossal help of the local Ukrainian population). Shukhevych was ambushed and killed in 1950, and then Vasyl' Kuk became the Commander-In-Chief, till approximately 1955-56 when the last UPA fighter groups were destroyed by the overwhelming force of the NKVD and the Soviet Army.

Unfortunately, some local criminal elements robbed and killed people under the guise of "UPA," and special Strybky troops were organized and trained by the NKVD to impersonate UPA fighters, hence the horrible libel that UPA were killers of innocent Jews and/or Poles. Just one "wonderful" example of how skilful the Soviets were in libeling UPA and how easily people bought their lies. In 1944 or 45, Polish sources published a photograph showing dead chidren hanging from a tree.
Like one old Canadian Ukrainian friend of mine said, "if one could line up all forgeries done by the NKVD/KGB about OUN and UPA, the line would definitely go all the way to the Moon, or maybe even to Mars."
The people who survived the raids of UPA also beg to differ. I acknowledge the fact that I would like my Polish historic viewpoint to agree with yours, that I want peace between us Slavic Christian brothers but it remains true that UPA caused a severe schism and rupture between Poles and Ukrainians.

The only proof I have are the devastated churches, cemeteries and forced exodus of Poles from territories they had lived for hundreds of years. All that is left are tears.
My neighbour from across the road was forced to run away from ukrainian nationalists in 1943. We call her pani Stasia. She was then a child, living in her familial village on Podole. She grew up in a traditional religious peasant family. One summer day, her father had information that the UPA was near. He then walked to the parish church to see if the local community was organising resistance. He never came back because along the way the UPA murdered him. Then pani Stasia's mother with 5 of her children were forced to migrate from the place where she was born into the great unknown. They did not know where they going, they didn't have any guide but somehow they survived. Pani Stasia says that the Mother of God lead her family to safety and that their constant prayers saved them from wysyłka to Siberia or death from the reżuńs of UPA. Pani Stasia can barely walk now, she has buried her husband and very few know about her secret. Perhaps it is fate that I, a 22 year old, learned of this. In Poland, we say  that if we forget those who died in the Ukraine or were sent to the lagiers in Siberia, then may God forget about us.

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« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2010, 01:39:13 PM »

ialmasry:
First, you put Stalin and Piłsudski,Grabski and Dmowski in one bag.... You are paranoid if you think that there is a connexion between Stalin and those three.
Please, you put Piłsudski and Dmowski into the same bag? Are you insane? They represent two different Polish worldviews. Roman Dmowski wanted Poland's border to be on the Curzon line. Dmowski's endencja movement was very pro-Russian. He wanted all the Polish lands united within the Russian Empire. On the other hand, Piłsudski wanted Poland to become the leader of the Intermarium between the Germanies and Russia. His method of gaining this was the confederation of Central European states. From its beginnings, Piłsudski wanted Ukrainian and Belarussian states but the Soviets destroyed the grassroots movements in Kyiv and Mińsk.
 Conservatives in Poland are divided into adherents of Dmowski and proponents of Piłsudski. The two groups "excommunicate" each other and call the other side "heretics".   

Nationalism is a 19th century invention. Ialmasry, your historiographical data is accurate but you seem to not have ever studied the history of ideas, of political ideologies.

I think ialmasry was once a Marxist. He sees a battle of classes of people emerging where they do not exist. 

PS. What does the economist Stanisław GRABSKI have to do with this affair? What does the fact that he redenominated the hyperinflating Polish currency have to do with Orthodoxy and Ukraine?
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« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2010, 02:47:27 PM »

My neighbour from across the road was forced to run away from ukrainian nationalists in 1943. We call her pani Stasia. She was then a child, living in her familial village on Podole. She grew up in a traditional religious peasant family. One summer day, her father had information that the UPA was near. He then walked to the parish church to see if the local community was organising resistance. He never came back because along the way the UPA murdered him. Then pani Stasia's mother with 5 of her children were forced to migrate from the place where she was born into the great unknown. They did not know where they going, they didn't have any guide but somehow they survived. Pani Stasia says that the Mother of God lead her family to safety and that their constant prayers saved them from wysyłka to Siberia or death from the reżuńs of UPA. Pani Stasia can barely walk now, she has buried her husband and very few know about her secret. Perhaps it is fate that I, a 22 year old, learned of this. In Poland, we say  that if we forget those who died in the Ukraine or were sent to the lagiers in Siberia, then may God forget about us.

Dear synLeszka,

First of all, I am terribly sorry to hear about the atrocities you described.

I heard stories like yours, but I absolutely refuse to believe that people who did this were UPA fighters. Most likely, they were Strybky (members of special killer squads trained by Stalin's NKVD and impersonating UPA). The thing is, UPA was an *ARMY* with a typical wartime army's iron discipline. Any person who would make an attempt on a civilian's life was to be court-marchalled. It usually meant swift trial and execution by a firing squad.

UPA, indeed, had skirmishes with the Polish guerilla army, AK (Armia Krajowa). But never, never did a UPA fighter or a "bojivka" deliberately kill civilians, be they Polish or Jewish or Russian.

BTW, some people who fought in UPA "bojivky" (fighting groups) were ethnic Jews. Many were Orthodox Ukrainians (the Canadian friend of mine whom I mentioned in my previous post is Orthodox and he fought in a UPA "bojivka" side-by-side with Ukrainian Eastern Rite Catholics against our common enemy, Stalin's genocidal regime).

I have friends in Kyiv who personally knew Vasyl' Kuk, the last UPA Commander-In-Chief (he survived the Gulag and died of natural causes in 2007). I have a book by him, where he descibes in all detail how UPA really operated and how Stalin's henchmen organized the libel of truly global proportions to discredit them.

I also read memoirs of children of UPA fighters, with hundreds of pages of authentic documents attached.

No. Whoever massacred innocent civilians were NOT UPA.
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« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2010, 02:47:28 PM »

"And these earthly countries and families are the playthings of this our temporary life and scene. For our country is whatever each may have first occupied, either as tyrant, or in misfortune; and in this we are all alike strangers and pilgrims, however much we may play with names." - St. Gregory the Theologian

Amen. IMHO mixing faith with nationalism/patriotism (not necessarily equivalent to ethnicity) creates a toxic stew that only benefits the enemies of truth.

This is perfectly true!  This is at the root of most Church related problems these days...and not just in Ukraine.

However, once again, why is it okay for everyone else to have their "national" Church, except Ukraine?

Why is Iaslamry so against Ukraine?

Why can everyone be a Romanian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc...but, so many are up in arms against Ukrainian Orthodox?

That's what I cannot understand.

I would not attend a non-canonical Church.  Therefore, I would not be found in a KP parish (although I have visited them on occasion).  

However, I await the day that Ukraine has a canonical autocephalous (my addition - mike) Church.

Won't all the naysayers be surprised when it comes to pass?  Just like Communism fell without a drop of blood being shed in Ukraine, so, will her Church be restored.

Lord, have mercy and bless my homeland!



LizaSymonenko, don't you understand that everyone here except from Heorhij, cossack 316 and stashko agrees with you (especially with the parts I've bolded)?

I agree with pani Liza.
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« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2010, 02:47:29 PM »

For those who read Ukrainian, a great testimony of an UPA fighter here: http://www2.maidan.org.ua/n/free/1283708930

I might translate a bit later, if folks are interested.
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« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2010, 02:53:37 PM »



Beg to differ. OUN stands for "Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists," a political party active in the 1920-s - 1940-s, acting mostly on those Ukrainian lands that were ceded to Poland in 1921 (the "Curzon Treaty"). OUN's political platform was based on the idea that the survival and the prosperity of the independent, sovereign, free Ukrainian state is one most noble and important goal of life of a Ukrainian person. Stepan Bandera was one of the leaders of OUN (other notable leaders were Andriy Mel'nyk and Yaroslaw Stets'ko). Bandera and Mel'nyk were arrested by Nazis in 1941 and spent the rest of the WWII in Nazi concentration camps. Bandera was later assassinated by a Soviet agent in West Germany.

UPA stands for "Ukrayins'ka Povstans'ka Armiya" (Ukrainian Insurgent Army), the OUN's military wing organized in 1942 in Ukrainian lands then occupied by the German army. Its goal was to fight the German occupiers by destroying their infrastructure, communications etc., and by dealing swift blows to the occupiers' police and anti-guerilla forces. UPA fought under a red and black flag and a slogan, "Za Volyu i Krashche Zhyttya" ("For Freedom and Better Life"). In 1944, UPA counted over 100,000 men and women, being one of the biggest (if not the biggest) anti-Hitler guerilla armies in the world. Roman Shukhevych was UPA Comander-in-Chief till 1950.

Neither OUN nor UPA were "criminal," as some try to prove today. In 1943-4, when the German army began its retreat from Ukraine and when the lands formerly occupied by Germany became the prey of Stalin's genocidal regime, UPA heroically fought against Stalin's special secret police, NKVD. That fight continued well in to the 1950-s (which would be, of course, impossible if the undergound fighters did not receive a colossal help of the local Ukrainian population). Shukhevych was ambushed and killed in 1950, and then Vasyl' Kuk became the Commander-In-Chief, till approximately 1955-56 when the last UPA fighter groups were destroyed by the overwhelming force of the NKVD and the Soviet Army.

Unfortunately, some local criminal elements robbed and killed people under the guise of "UPA," and special Strybky troops were organized and trained by the NKVD to impersonate UPA fighters, hence the horrible libel that UPA were killers of innocent Jews and/or Poles. Just one "wonderful" example of how skilful the Soviets were in libeling UPA and how easily people bought their lies. In 1944 or 45, Polish sources published a photograph showing dead chidren hanging from a tree.
Like one old Canadian Ukrainian friend of mine said, "if one could line up all forgeries done by the NKVD/KGB about OUN and UPA, the line would definitely go all the way to the Moon, or maybe even to Mars."
The people who survived the raids of UPA also beg to differ. I acknowledge the fact that I would like my Polish historic viewpoint to agree with yours, that I want peace between us Slavic Christian brothers but it remains true that UPA caused a severe schism and rupture between Poles and Ukrainians.
Because the occupiers have been driven out?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Bev%C3%B6lkerungsverteilung_Ostmitteleuropa_um_1918.jpg

The only proof I have are the devastated churches, cemeteries and forced exodus of Poles from territories they had lived for hundreds of years.
So centuries of oppression and persecusion came to nought.

All that is left are tears.

Cry us a river.

My neighbour from across the road was forced to run away from ukrainian nationalists in 1943. We call her pani Stasia. She was then a child, living in her familial village on Podole.
Which Podole?
She grew up in a traditional religious peasant family.

Which was what?
One summer day, her father had information that the UPA was near. He then walked to the parish church to see if the local community was organising resistance. He never came back because along the way the UPA murdered him. Then pani Stasia's mother with 5 of her children were forced to migrate from the place where she was born into the great unknown. They did not know where they going, they didn't have any guide but somehow they survived. Pani Stasia says that the Mother of God lead her family to safety and that their constant prayers saved them from wysyłka to Siberia or death from the reżuńs of UPA. Pani Stasia can barely walk now, she has buried her husband and very few know about her secret. Perhaps it is fate that I, a 22 year old, learned of this. In Poland, we say  that if we forget those who died in the Ukraine or were sent to the lagiers in Siberia, then may God forget about us.
The Ukrainians (some at least) and Belorusssians haven't forgotten what a "joy" the Second Republic was.
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« Reply #61 on: September 06, 2010, 04:12:23 PM »

ialmasry:
First, you put Stalin and Piłsudski,Grabski and Dmowski in one bag.... You are paranoid if you think that there is a connexion between Stalin and those three.
You're right: Stalin made less pretense to humanity.

Please, you put Piłsudski and Dmowski into the same bag? Are you insane? They represent two different Polish worldviews.
Two sides of the same coin.


 Roman Dmowski wanted Poland's border to be on the Curzon line. Dmowski's endencja movement was very pro-Russian. He wanted all the Polish lands united within the Russian Empire. On the other hand, Piłsudski wanted Poland to become the leader of the Intermarium between the Germanies and Russia. His method of gaining this was the confederation of Central European states.
And what was in it for the Ukrainians? In particular his opposition to the Polish Minority Treaty/Little Treaty of Versailles?

 From its beginnings, Piłsudski wanted Ukrainian and Belarussian states but the Soviets destroyed the grassroots movements in Kyiv and Mińsk.
Destroyed? Hardly.

Conservatives in Poland are divided into adherents of Dmowski and proponents of Piłsudski. The two groups "excommunicate" each other and call the other side "heretics".

Yes, the Vatican and  the Calvinists excommunicated each other and called each heretics, but managed to unite to edge out (by the "Union" of Brest) out of the Warsaw Confederation.


Nationalism is a 19th century invention. Ialmasry, your historiographical data is accurate but you seem to not have ever studied the history of ideas, of political ideologies.

Enough to know that nations predate the French Revolution. For instance, a good case study is Iran.

"The Idea of Iran: an essay on its origin." Gheraldo Gnoli
http://books.google.com/books?id=3X8yAAAAIAAJ&q=history+of+the+idea+of+iran&dq=history+of+the+idea+of+iran&hl=en&ei=AUaFTKuqD8i9ngef1OSgAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ

I think ialmasry was once a Marxist.

No, but I was once a capitalist. Btw, Marxist allegedly don't believe in nationalisms.

He sees a battle of classes of people emerging where they do not exist.

Now who's the Marxist? The szlachta may be a class, and the Ukrainians and Ruthenians mostly peasants, but the Ostrogski family, true sons of Prince St. Volodymyr brought to nought the ravings of Marxists: the Ostrogskis defended Orthodoxy and the Rus' tradition, althought they were, besides Rurikids, also Piasts.

PS. What does the economist Stanisław GRABSKI have to do with this affair? What does the fact that he redenominated the hyperinflating Polish currency have to do with Orthodoxy and Ukraine?

He was Minister of Religious Beliefs and Public Education and author of the notorius Lex Grabski
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN030010586X&id=xSpEynLxJ1MC&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=stanislaw+grabski&sig=5kSKOnXipwsTitk7w_hotRTooPQ#v=onepage&q=stanislaw%20grabski&f=false
The reconstruction of nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999 By Timothy Snyder

Edited for tags - mike.
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« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2010, 09:53:36 AM »

I do not want to participate in this debate because I have said my two pence and it is enough.
You are paranoid and that's it. You are a demagogue and that's it.
Why does an Arab/American care so much about Slavic history? You know nothing about us. What is the sense of stirring up conflicts where they do not exist. Why does a discussion between Slavs about Slavic history have to have interference by someone who is a complete outsider. Perhaps if you tried humbly to learn something about some peoples you do not know much about I would understand you.

You say that you know what Bialorusins and Ukrainians think about Poland. Have you been in these countries and talked to the people?

Supposedly, you place devout Orthodox against Polish Roman Catholics. There are accounts of Orthodox priests protecting Roman Catholic churches from the Ukrainian peasants, who in the name of Soviet progress wanted to destroy the churches and other monuments. In one case, there was an Orthodox priest who said that if in this village, you take apart the Polish roadside cross, then I will excommunicate all of you. The villagers then decided not to carry out this operation and left the cross intact. Now, why would an Orthodox parish priest protect the last sign of Polish settlement in this area? The roadside cross is considered to be the line of demarcation between Poles and other nations. Rusins and Germans traditionally don't build roadside crosses.
  I think he was not as intelligent as you are, and did not realise that the Poles are faithless, graceless heretics who deserve to be done away with. You alluded to this in your glorification of the "solving of the Polish question in Western Ukraine:" Ad hominem removed  Your comixture of dialectic Soviet historical theory with Orthodox fanaticism are at best a devilish brew.
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« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2010, 10:46:09 AM »

I do not want to participate in this debate because I have said my two pence and it is enough.

It's two cents in the states, and it's not backed by gold either.

You are paranoid and that's it. You are a demagogue and that's it.
Well, how  can I argue with such a reasoned defense. Roll Eyes

Why does an Arab/American care so much about Slavic history?
Why not? I should, and do, care about all Orthodox.

You know nothing about us.
Who's "us"?

What is the sense of stirring up conflicts where they do not exist.
What about dealing with conflict where it exists?

Don't trip over that lump in the rug.
Why does a discussion between Slavs about Slavic history have to have interference by someone who is a complete outsider.
WWI. WWII.

Perhaps if you tried humbly to learn something about some peoples you do not know much about I would understand you.
You mean rubber stamp your version of evens. No thank you. That's not humility, it's abdication.

You say that you know what Bialorusins
Belarussians
and Ukrainians think about Poland. Have you been in these countries and talked to the people?

No.

But I have been to Poland.

Supposedly, you place devout Orthodox against Polish Roman Catholics.

Did we lose the devout Polish Orthodox somewhere?

There are accounts of Orthodox priests protecting Roman Catholic churches from the Ukrainian peasants, who in the name of Soviet progress wanted to destroy the churches and other monuments. In one case, there was an Orthodox priest who said that if in this village, you take apart the Polish roadside cross, then I will excommunicate all of you. The villagers then decided not to carry out this operation and left the cross intact. Now, why would an Orthodox parish priest protect the last sign of Polish settlement in this area? The roadside cross is considered to be the line of demarcation between Poles and other nations. Rusins and Germans traditionally don't build roadside crosses.
Do Lemkos count?

http://uzar.wordpress.com/category/history/

I think he was not as intelligent as you are, and did not realise that the Poles are faithless, graceless heretics who deserve to be done away with.
They ARE?! Thanks for the information.

You alluded to this in your glorification of the "solving of the Polish question in Western Ukraine:"

No, I did not. The question was the border. I said nothing about the Polish minority upon which Warsaw based its expansionism.

You truly are a wretched soul.  Your comixture of dialectic Soviet historical theory with Orthodox fanaticism are at best a devilish brew.
do you always stir your brew with your axe, in between grindings, that is?
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« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2010, 11:07:24 AM »


Enough.

Can you all just step back and take a look at yourselves?

Why must folks belittle others so crudely?

Disgusting!

For those of us who claim to be Orthodox, it's high time we behaved as such.

Christ NEVER spoke so rudely.  He preached to love one another.  To be nice.  To be kind. 

The way folks on this forum act, completely contradict what they claim to support - Orthodoxy.

This type of attitude and behavior would never win souls over to Orthodoxy, it would make people turn and run.
Thank God the disciples never acted like this in their attempts at spreading the Word.



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don't even go there!


« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2010, 11:16:13 AM »

*Amen*, Liza!!!
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« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2010, 11:51:43 AM »

FYI, I pray for a CANNONICAL Ukrainian Orthodox Church. I realize that the UOCKP is not cannonically recognized, but I believe one day it will. I understand there are opponents of Patriarch Filaret and that is fine and good. If anyone knows how a church becomes "cannonical" please let me know. The UOCKP has the same sacraments, rules, liturgies as a cannonical church.

My understanding it the only thing that makes the UOCKP uncannonical is that MP, EP and the others do not recognize it. I do not want my church to go under the EP nor for it to reunite with the UOCMP which is a branch of Russian Orthodoxy. I am rare in that I am a 2nd generation Ukrainian who has visited often and is extemely proud of his country and horrified the way this world fights over it. I find it horrifying that people compare that UPA to the SS, the UOCKP to crazy Protestants, the holodomor as crazy Uki nationalism and anti-russian propoganda. (I'm not necessarily refering to just people on this board)

I just want the world to leave us alone, recognize our autocephally as an "equal" church and brothers and sisters in Christ. I am done commenting on the Ukrainian church, the Russian attrocities commited historically against the Ukrainians, the hypocrisy of the politics of religion, etc. Slava Isusu Christu.


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« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2010, 12:13:02 PM »

Please forgive my foolishness - as I know little about the history of the Ukraine - though thankfully you have given a hopefully good picture of this history. 

My prayer for the Father to make us ONE as He and His Blessed Son are ONE. 

This is and will remain my prayer - let His will be done in all things.  He has promised to restore all things to His Glory - and so be it, amen.  One day my hope is that we will be in agreement in His Peace. 
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« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2010, 12:39:15 PM »

I quite frankly don't know what to make of this entire discussion. Look at this thread? I mean we claim as Orthodox Christians that we are "the one true Church" and yet we're digging up ancient vendettas and cultural blood feuds from 1000 years ago (or whenever) and use that to validate our in group/out group mentality  within the Church. I've succumbed to it in the past myself, I know how easy it is, but I just kept asking myself as I've been reading thing, "who cares?!" How does ANY of this make me, or anyone else a better Christian? I'm not directing this at any one person, not in the least. But only at a spirit of "dialogue" that is anything but. unfortunately this seems to be the way most Christians throughout most of Church history have dealt with any problems, demonize the "other" and it begins from the top down. human beings learn by example and when we see our church leaders act in this way, well we're going to do it ourselves. It just makes me sad that this is just reality. I hope everyone can take a step back and just take a breather before continuing on myself included. I'm not posting this as a Moderator, but as a fellow Orthodox Christian, and that's all. (at the moment anyway) It's just too bad Church politics and secular politics have mingled and turned Christian against Christian all over some ethnic or cultural identity. I guess that's human nature, and it what it is. But it still makes me sad.


NP
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« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2010, 02:28:51 PM »

I quite frankly don't know what to make of this entire discussion. Look at this thread? I mean we claim as Orthodox Christians that we are "the one true Church" and yet we're digging up ancient vendettas and cultural blood feuds from 1000 years ago (or whenever) and use that to validate our in group/out group mentality  within the Church. I've succumbed to it in the past myself, I know how easy it is, but I just kept asking myself as I've been reading thing, "who cares?!" How does ANY of this make me, or anyone else a better Christian? I'm not directing this at any one person, not in the least. But only at a spirit of "dialogue" that is anything but. unfortunately this seems to be the way most Christians throughout most of Church history have dealt with any problems, demonize the "other" and it begins from the top down. human beings learn by example and when we see our church leaders act in this way, well we're going to do it ourselves. It just makes me sad that this is just reality. I hope everyone can take a step back and just take a breather before continuing on myself included. I'm not posting this as a Moderator, but as a fellow Orthodox Christian, and that's all. (at the moment anyway) It's just too bad Church politics and secular politics have mingled and turned Christian against Christian all over some ethnic or cultural identity. I guess that's human nature, and it what it is. But it still makes me sad.


NP

Dear NP,

The situation is, again, like this:

-- IN UKRAINE, SEVERAL MILLION ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS CANNOT ATTEND CHURCH, BECAUSE IT HOLDS, TO A VERY LARGE EXTENT, A VIEW ON UKRAINE THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THESE PEOPLE'S PATRIOTIC FEELINGS.

That's all there is to it, I guess.
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« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2010, 02:30:59 PM »

Dear NP,

The situation is, again, like this:

-- IN UKRAINE, SEVERAL MILLION ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS CANNOT ATTEND CHURCH, BECAUSE IT some members of Her HOLDS, TO A VERY LARGE EXTENT, A VIEW ON UKRAINE THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THESE PEOPLE'S PATRIOTIC FEELINGS.

That's all there is to it, I guess.
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« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2010, 02:44:35 PM »

I'm really starting to find nationalism in church organization to be unwise, because borders are constantly shifting and changing, and this makes any setup a temporary one, even if for a thousand years.

I'm not so concerned about a "united" church in the USA if it's anything like this Ukraine debate. If this is what t is all about, then I say to hell with "national" churches. Just submit to your bishop and pursue a life of holiness.

A Macedonian church, a Ukrainian church, blah and blah. Let's all just keep dividing up until there's no unified front left, and the wolves from without can come in without any opposition and strip our bones bear. If it happens, we'll deserve it.

The Church which I have just joined is whole and complete, and She has everything She needs in the Eucharist and the liturgy. Glory to God for all things!
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« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2010, 03:13:45 PM »

Dear NP,

The situation is, again, like this:

-- IN UKRAINE, SEVERAL MILLION ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS CANNOT ATTEND CHURCH, BECAUSE IT some members of Her HOLDS, TO A VERY LARGE EXTENT, A VIEW ON UKRAINE THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THESE PEOPLE'S PATRIOTIC FEELINGS.

That's all there is to it, I guess.

I agree, Mike! But for many people who live in Ukraine, these "SOME" are all that they directly interact with. For example, if you live in Odesa or the Odesa Oblast', where the Archbishop (+AFATHANGEL) is a rabid Ukrainophobe, pretty much every parish is politicized and anti-Ukrainian. So what can people do? They cannot change the bishop, and they are not always willing to move to another place.

BTW, even in my home city of Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine, there is only ONE UOC parish where one hears the Ukrainian language regularly, and it is in the Vynohradar district (extremely far, perhaps even father than, say, Yonkers from manhattan).
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« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2010, 04:47:52 PM »

I'm really starting to find nationalism in church organization to be unwise, because borders are constantly shifting and changing, and this makes any setup a temporary one, even if for a thousand years.

I'm not so concerned about a "united" church in the USA if it's anything like this Ukraine debate. If this is what t is all about, then I say to hell with "national" churches. Just submit to your bishop and pursue a life of holiness.

A Macedonian church, a Ukrainian church, blah and blah. Let's all just keep dividing up until there's no unified front left, and the wolves from without can come in without any opposition and strip our bones bear. If it happens, we'll deserve it.

The Church which I have just joined is whole and complete, and She has everything She needs in the Eucharist and the liturgy. Glory to God for all things!

Alveus, but you do not live in a country that became independent only 19 years ago and where the everyday life is greatly influenced by the struggle between those who want to keep it independent and those who want to make it back into a "province" that it used to be for centuries.

You guys have to live in Ukraine for at least a few months, and get to know what life is over there. Othewise your judgment is very abstract, it is not based on realities.
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« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2010, 04:40:05 AM »

I want to apologise for my retort.
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« Reply #75 on: September 08, 2010, 07:30:00 AM »

Alveus, but you do not live in a country that became independent only 19 years ago and where the everyday life is greatly influenced by the struggle between those who want to keep it independent and those who want to make it back into a "province" that it used to be for centuries.

That's a political matter. What is its spiritual significance?
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« Reply #76 on: September 08, 2010, 08:55:47 AM »

Alveus, but you do not live in a country that became independent only 19 years ago and where the everyday life is greatly influenced by the struggle between those who want to keep it independent and those who want to make it back into a "province" that it used to be for centuries.

That's a political matter. What is its spiritual significance?
Poland is in a similar situation. It is hard to explain to someone who is from a stable society such as in Great Britain and the USA.
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« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2010, 12:00:30 PM »

Alveus, but you do not live in a country that became independent only 19 years ago and where the everyday life is greatly influenced by the struggle between those who want to keep it independent and those who want to make it back into a "province" that it used to be for centuries.

That's a political matter. What is its spiritual significance?

1 Timothy 5:8: "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than unbeliever." In Ukraine, quite a lot of people view their Ukrainian nation as their extended family or "household," which is being assaulted, occupied by maraudeurs who want to destroy it completely. I myself share this sentiment. I want to "provide" for my Ukrainian "household" in every way I can. By joining a church jurisdiction whose hierarchs teach that the "spiritual center" of Ukrainians is in Moscow and that every person who thinks otherwise is a "bad' 'nationalist," I would perhaps aid to those who are directly or indirectly on the side of the maraudeurs, "Ukrainophages."
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« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2010, 12:17:52 PM »

I do not want to participate in this debate because I have said my two pence and it is enough.
You are paranoid and that's it. You are a demagogue and that's it.
Why does an Arab/American care so much about Slavic history? You know nothing about us. What is the sense of stirring up conflicts where they do not exist. Why does a discussion between Slavs about Slavic history have to have interference by someone who is a complete outsider. Perhaps if you tried humbly to learn something about some peoples you do not know much about I would understand you.

You say that you know what Bialorusins and Ukrainians think about Poland. Have you been in these countries and talked to the people?

Supposedly, you place devout Orthodox against Polish Roman Catholics. There are accounts of Orthodox priests protecting Roman Catholic churches from the Ukrainian peasants, who in the name of Soviet progress wanted to destroy the churches and other monuments. In one case, there was an Orthodox priest who said that if in this village, you take apart the Polish roadside cross, then I will excommunicate all of you. The villagers then decided not to carry out this operation and left the cross intact. Now, why would an Orthodox parish priest protect the last sign of Polish settlement in this area? The roadside cross is considered to be the line of demarcation between Poles and other nations. Rusins and Germans traditionally don't build roadside crosses.
  I think he was not as intelligent as you are, and did not realise that the Poles are faithless, graceless heretics who deserve to be done away with. You alluded to this in your glorification of the "solving of the Polish question in Western Ukraine:" Ad hominem removed  Your comixture of dialectic Soviet historical theory with Orthodox fanaticism are at best a devilish brew.
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I agree and support everything Isa has posted thus far. Before you question my background, I'm 1/4 Ukrainian, 1/4 Polish, and 1/2 Carpatho-Russian (Slovakian). So can I get involved? If so, I will just have Isa submit his posts to me and I will post them. Will it give them legitimacy if I do that?

-Nick
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« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2010, 12:43:41 PM »

That was uncalled for.

synLeszka already apologized.

Snarky remarks are uncalled for.
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« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2010, 05:44:33 PM »

Dear NP,

The situation is, again, like this:

-- IN UKRAINE, SEVERAL MILLION ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS CANNOT ATTEND CHURCH, BECAUSE IT HOLDS, TO A VERY LARGE EXTENT, A VIEW ON UKRAINE THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THESE PEOPLE'S PATRIOTIC FEELINGS.

That's all there is to it, I guess.

Well, like I said my post wasn't directed at one side or the other. I just don't know enough to "take sides" as it were. I was only reflecting on the fact that our Church is torn asunder by politics, culture, and a thirst for power and that regardless who is at fault, the whole situation is very, very sad. I also find telling entire Churches that they are "un-canonical" for reasons other than heresy (like political reasons) is seriously problematic and not in accord with the historic teaching of the Church. But I just don't know enough about the history to make an informed opinion. Again not taking sides here, just saying the whole situation is terrible, particularly for every day people affected by this.

NP

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« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2010, 05:23:05 AM »

Dear NP,

The situation is, again, like this:

-- IN UKRAINE, SEVERAL MILLION ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS CANNOT ATTEND CHURCH, BECAUSE IT HOLDS, TO A VERY LARGE EXTENT, A VIEW ON UKRAINE THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THESE PEOPLE'S PATRIOTIC FEELINGS.

That's all there is to it, I guess.

Well, like I said my post wasn't directed at one side or the other. I just don't know enough to "take sides" as it were. I was only reflecting on the fact that our Church is torn asunder by politics, culture, and a thirst for power and that regardless who is at fault, the whole situation is very, very sad. I also find telling entire Churches that they are "un-canonical" for reasons other than heresy (like political reasons) is seriously problematic and not in accord with the historic teaching of the Church. But I just don't know enough about the history to make an informed opinion. Again not taking sides here, just saying the whole situation is terrible, particularly for every day people affected by this.

NP



Dear NP,

You are so right. To take sides, one needs to know the true history of Ukraine. But the trouble is, the history that the outside world wishes to know about Ukraine simply does not exist. The collection of "facts" one can learn about Ukraine, if this one is not Ukrainian, has been so severely tampered with, soiled, contaminated by the forces that strove to eliminate Ukraine as such - or, same thing, to make it a province of some other, greater, larger, more "important" empire.

Ukraine is at the crossroads of the two civilizations, the Western and the Eastern/Eursian. What "history" of Ukraine to perceive as true, lies pretty much within an individual, within his/her values. Best wishes for your journey to make a choice of yours, if you ever wish to make any.
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« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2010, 10:01:59 AM »

That was uncalled for.

synLeszka already apologized.

Snarky remarks are uncalled for.

Those weren't snarky remarks, they were honest questions in response to the post. But then again, I suppose that us anti-ukrainians are not capable of asking questions, we must be attacking Ukraine in some way, shape, or form.

-Nick
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« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2010, 10:25:23 AM »

That was uncalled for.

synLeszka already apologized.

Snarky remarks are uncalled for.

Those weren't snarky remarks, they were honest questions in response to the post. But then again, I suppose that us anti-ukrainians are not capable of asking questions, we must be attacking Ukraine in some way, shape, or form.

-Nick

Again...you are trying to get a rise out of folks and get an argument going.  Why?

This is what you said:

I agree and support everything Isa has posted thus far. Before you question my background, I'm 1/4 Ukrainian, 1/4 Polish, and 1/2 Carpatho-Russian (Slovakian). So can I get involved? If so, I will just have Isa submit his posts to me and I will post them. Will it give them legitimacy if I do that?

-Nick


Maybe, it's just my "pro-Ukrainian" stance...but, it seems to me that when you are making an assumption that because of your ethnicity someone won't allow you to post, or that your opinion doesn't matter...that's uncalled for. 

If you were referring to the remark by synLeszka, that person already apologized.  What do you want from them?

Where's the Orthodox behavior?

I truly am sorry that you are "anti" Ukrainian, as you said.  It's too bad.

As a true Orthodox, we should not be anti anyone. 



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« Reply #84 on: September 09, 2010, 11:06:56 AM »

Well I admit I am anti-ignorance and anti-soviet. I hope that doesn't make me unchristian.
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« Reply #85 on: September 09, 2010, 11:15:17 AM »


Being anti-evil is one thing.

However, when you are anti a nationality, an ethnicity, a peoples....that is entirely different.

Even if a Ukrainian has done someone wrong, disliking the entire nation because of that one person's actions, is un-Christian.
You shouldn't even dislike that one person, but, forgive them and pray for them.

Hating the country and being anti-Ukrainian is just really immature.

I love how some folks pick and choose which "parts" of Orthodoxy they support and adhere to.

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« Reply #86 on: September 09, 2010, 11:44:35 AM »

Dear NP,

The situation is, again, like this:

-- IN UKRAINE, SEVERAL MILLION ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS CANNOT ATTEND CHURCH, BECAUSE IT HOLDS, TO A VERY LARGE EXTENT, A VIEW ON UKRAINE THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THESE PEOPLE'S PATRIOTIC FEELINGS.

That's all there is to it, I guess.

Well, like I said my post wasn't directed at one side or the other. I just don't know enough to "take sides" as it were. I was only reflecting on the fact that our Church is torn asunder by politics, culture, and a thirst for power and that regardless who is at fault, the whole situation is very, very sad. I also find telling entire Churches that they are "un-canonical" for reasons other than heresy (like political reasons) is seriously problematic and not in accord with the historic teaching of the Church. But I just don't know enough about the history to make an informed opinion. Again not taking sides here, just saying the whole situation is terrible, particularly for every day people affected by this.

NP



Dear NP,

You are so right. To take sides, one needs to know the true history of Ukraine. But the trouble is, the history that the outside world wishes to know about Ukraine simply does not exist. The collection of "facts" one can learn about Ukraine, if this one is not Ukrainian,

because we know that no Ukrainian, at least not one of the U"O"C-KP persuasion, would not tamper with, soil, contaminate said collection of "facts" with the forces that strive to create Ukraine as such.  Just ask a Ruthenian/Rusyn/Carpato-Russian/Rusyn

Quote
has been so severely tampered with, soiled, contaminated by the forces that strove to eliminate Ukraine as such - or, same thing, to make it a province of some other, greater, larger, more "important" empire.

Like the Vatican?

Quote
Ukraine is at the crossroads of the two civilizations, the Western and the Eastern/Eursian.

Eurasian? Never heard of that civilization. As for the Western/Eastern divide in European Civilization

Ukraine lies East of it. (you can ignore the dribble written on the map and in the linked post
http://www.hunreal.com/european-cultural-divides/
as it is that, dribble. He seems never to heard of the papal states and the Inquisition.  Popular culture is du jour, culture is not).

Quote
What "history" of Ukraine to perceive as true, lies pretty much within an individual, within his/her values. Best wishes for your journey to make a choice of yours, if you ever wish to make any.
Not exactly that idiosyncratic, but definitely influencing.  Everyone views from a POV.
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« Reply #87 on: September 09, 2010, 12:06:21 PM »

That was uncalled for.

synLeszka already apologized.

Snarky remarks are uncalled for.

Those weren't snarky remarks, they were honest questions in response to the post. But then again, I suppose that us anti-ukrainians are not capable of asking questions, we must be attacking Ukraine in some way, shape, or form.

-Nick
Since you seem to be good at misinterpreting my comments, I will add sarcasm tags for you when they apply.

Again...you are trying to get a rise out of folks and get an argument going.  Why?

I am not trying to get an argument going about anything. I was merely responding to synLeszka's post as I quoted in my original post. You are the one who interpreted my remarks as snarky, to which I gave you a response. Maybe if I had laid it out like this you could understand it better:
Those weren't snarky remarks, they were honest questions in response to the post.

[SARCASM]But then again, I suppose that us anti-ukrainians are not capable of asking questions, we must be attacking Ukraine in some way, shape, or form.[/SARCASM]

This is what you said:

I agree and support everything Isa has posted thus far. Before you question my background, I'm 1/4 Ukrainian, 1/4 Polish, and 1/2 Carpatho-Russian (Slovakian). So can I get involved? If so, I will just have Isa submit his posts to me and I will post them. Will it give them legitimacy if I do that?

-Nick


Maybe, it's just my "pro-Ukrainian" stance...but, it seems to me that when you are making an assumption that because of your ethnicity someone won't allow you to post, or that your opinion doesn't matter...that's uncalled for. 

So what's the difference between what I said and what I responded to, mine is uncalled for but the other comment is not?

Quote
Why does an Arab/American care so much about Slavic history? You know nothing about us. What is the sense of stirring up conflicts where they do not exist. Why does a discussion between Slavs about Slavic history have to have interference by someone who is a complete outsider. Perhaps if you tried humbly to learn something about some peoples you do not know much about I would understand you.

Seems to be an assumption was made here that because a person was Arab/American they can't care about slavic history and are merely outsiders interfering in Slavs and Slavic history. [SARCASM]But then again, synLeszka apologized so its all ok now.[/SARCASM] The illustration of my ethnic background was to illustrate that whether the information would come from Isa (who is not a slav) or from myself (who is a slav) doesn't make the information any less accurate or change it in any way shape or form as was implied by synLeszka

If you were referring to the remark by synLeszka, that person already apologized.  What do you want from them?

I was referring to synLeszka, your participation was not required. Yes the poster apologized, it doesn't mean that their way of thinking has changed or that it won't happen again.

Where's the Orthodox behavior?

[SARCASM] I left it at the door when I decided to become a nationalistic loud mouthed American[/SARCASM]

I truly am sorry that you are "anti" Ukrainian, as you said.  It's too bad.

Anti-Ukrainian was your term from another thread, not one I invented, try again.

As a true Orthodox, we should not be anti anyone. 

Thank you, I will be sure to model my behavior after yours.


-Nick





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« Reply #88 on: September 11, 2010, 02:23:00 AM »

With all due respect, saying that Russians aren't slavs is like saying that Jews have no connection to Judea or Judah; or that Germans are Aryans in a way slavs aren't; or that the Native Americans are the Lost Tribes of Israel.

Considering their danger to cause people to have a sense of superiority/inferiority or ethnic strife, these kinds of racial ideas should come stamped "For entertainment purposes only".
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« Reply #89 on: September 11, 2010, 06:42:35 AM »

I want to clarify my stance. I am for Ukrainian statehood and independence from the Russian Federation. I believe that the Ukrainian people are a brotherly people to us Poles, who share with us a common belief in Christ. I do not support in any way the claims of Moscow, that Poland and Ukraine are little midget nations which should listen subserviently and obediently to Moscow. My blood boils when I hear about what Putin and his ideologists say about central Europe. Example typical Russian Putinist ideologian Karaganov's rhetoric: If Russia becomes more democratic and rich, then you (Poles in this context) will fear us even more. Russia will always threathen you. If we stop being a threat, then we will quit being Russian, we will stop being a strong, free, and happy people. Taken from an interview in the Polish Gazeta Wyborcza in May 2008
.
Karaganov in a discussion explained that the ideal situation for Russia would be a return to the era of Otto von Bismarck. Then someone pointed out that this ime was not the best for Poles, Lithuanians or Ukrainians. Karaganov then replied, that if we start   talking about the interests of small nations, someone will always suffer. With the liquidation of small nations, keeping within Karaganov's thought,the peace between the empires will bring about an era of tranquility and peace, prosperity will grow and Europe will be a stable place.
I have to add that I support Ukraine but not UPA. You will have your viewpoint and I will have mine. The discussion is needed but the historiography and mythology of the Ukrainian nationalist movement needs to be reassessed.
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