OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 20, 2014, 01:02:36 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Ukrainian Orthodoxy  (Read 7256 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,849



WWW
« on: September 02, 2010, 04:22:23 PM »


I’m going to give it one more try.

I am NOT a historian, nor a theologian, however, this is how I understand it.  If I’ve got my facts wrong, please try to kindly educate me.  Don’t belittle me.  I get enough of that from non-Orthodox.

Please put aside all your prejudices and preconceived notions.  Open your hearts, your minds and your souls.
Give this subject some actual thought, don’t just tow the party line.

Ukraine, just like every other nation on this planet has had its name, politics, language, faith, geographic boundaries, etc. change over the years.  I am not trying to prove “who” or which peoples constitute Ukraine.  I am concerned for those who say they are Ukrainian.

St. Andrew the First Called, walked upon the land which today is known as Ukraine.  He erected a Cross on a hill (in today’s city of Kyiv) and prophesied that a great Christian city would one day arise around that Cross. 

In 988 Prince Volodymyr had all of what was then known as Rus baptized into the Orthodox Faith.  This occurred in the lands where Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine, is situated today.  Orthodoxy was brought to Ukraine from Constantinople (not Moscow).  Moscow had yet to be established.

From 988 to 1686 the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was in the canonical jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Constantinople.

Ukraine had its own distinct Orthodox Church on its lands from that day forward, with a number of metropolitans to lead the Church.

Orthodoxy spread from Kyiv to all neighboring lands and peoples, however, it’s center remained Kyiv.

Prince Volodymyr’s son, Yaroslav I the Wise, helped to fortify and build the city of Kyiv into the greatest and largest city of it’s time.  However, when he passed away in 1054 his sons squabbled over the land and eventually were defeated by the Mongols.

In the mid-15th century the Moscow metropoly broke with Kyiv and eventually constituted itself as a patriarchate, separate from Ukraine and Rus, in 1598. Ukraine/ Rus continued without Moscow in the mix, electing their own metropolitans, etc.   On all occasions the Patriarch of Constantinople ratified these elections.  Therefore, they must have recognized Ukraine/Rus as a separate entity from Moscow. 

However, as always in the world of man, politics comes in to play…and Russia wanted power over the land, the people and the Church.  The Muscovite influence over Ukraine grew. 

In 1686 the Kyiv metropoly was placed under the Patriarch of Moscow.  Why?  Why was Ukraine handed over?  Ukrainians did not ask nor wish for this to happen.  They petitioned, and argued and pleaded to no avail.  Tell me it wasn’t political.

Why had the Constantinople Patriarchate renounced it’s right to the Ukrainian Church?  From 988-1686 the Ukrainian Church had been canonical (Canon 25, 5th Ecumenical Council) under the jurisdiction of the Constantinople Patriarchate.  This transfer was unlawful and I pray that God forgive all those involved in it….for pity the Shepherd who intentionally loses his sheep, and the shepherd who steals another’s flock.

How was Moscow allowed to separate from RUS/Ukraine which was under Constantinople at the time to form the MP, and yet Ukraine/Rus could not?

I won’t bore you will the entire history of Ukraine, because the central point here is not Ukrainian geo-political existence, but, the existence of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

It is historically recorded that the Ecumenical Church of Constantinople in 1924 publicly and officially proclaimed the joining of the Ukrainian Church to the Church of Moscow to be an uncanonical act; similarly, the Ukrainian Church itself struggled ceaselessly against this coercion, that is the Russian czarate, ceased to belong to the Church of Moscow (Canon37 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council).  Canon 8 of the Third Ecumenical Council clearly concerning this states:

"If anyone has violently taken and subjected (a Diocese), he shall give it up; lest the Canons of the Fathers be transgressed; or the vanities of the wordly honour be brought in under the pretext of sacred office; or we lose, without knowing it, little by little, the liberity which Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Delieverer of men, hath given us by His own Blood."

Besides this, Patriarch +TIKHON in 1920, officially approved the autocephalous governing of the Ukrainian Church, recognizing that this was essential for the well-being of the Church and in accordance to the demands of the whole Ukrainian Nation as well as the Clergy and the Episcopate.

He confirmed this a second time in his document Number 145 dated March 24, 1924. Because of this, the Ukrainian Church today is under no canonical dependence to the Church of Moscow.

As for Ukraine having the right to have its own Church, according to the Apostolic Canon 34, each nation has the right to its own autocephalous Church.  In addition, according to Canon 17 of the Fourth and Canon 38 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council, each Church must accomodate itself to new state boundries.
Therefore, why are all of you against Ukraine having her own Church?

I am not actually in favor of the UOC-KP as it stands today.  I know that Ukraine can do much better for a Patriarch than this man.  For if he truly wanted what was best for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church he would have stepped down and allowed for another Patriarch to be elected.  His pride is hurting the entire effort of the UOC.  P. Bartholomew would have long ago recognized the Ukrainian Church, if P. Filaret would have cooperated.

However, while  I do not personally support P. Filaret, I do support the efforts of Ukraine to have an autonomous Ukrainian Church!

I realize we are not there, yet, and what is going on in my homeland is NOT the favorable, desirable or even the correct way to go about this.  There are Church canons and rules to adhere to, however, these rules should always be adhered to, not only when it suits the political purposes of certain powers.

Now…go ahead and rip me to shreds with your fancy talk and myriads of arguments.  I can take it. 

God has not forsaken Ukraine.  He has always blessed her lands and her people.  Ukraine has given birth to numerous saints, miracles and faithful.

I know that God will restore the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, in His own time, appointing a man who is worthy to lead His flock.

I  can wait.

However, I will fight to defend Ukraine’s right to have religious freedom to the end. 

I am convinced that Ukraine is worthy and that the devil is threatened by her, and therefore, is dividing her faithful, in order to destroy Christ's Church.  We are all in that mix because of all our silly squabbling.  We are not trying to figure out an amicable solution.  We are simply trying to beat each other in to the ground.  Shameful. 

I support all Orthodox everywhere...and will do what I can to help any Orthodox person, nation or Church until my death.

I love you all!  I truly do.

God bless you.  Peace.

Liza



Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2010, 05:53:25 PM »


I’m going to give it one more try.

I am NOT a historian, nor a theologian, however, this is how I understand it.  If I’ve got my facts wrong, please try to kindly educate me.  Don’t belittle me.  I get enough of that from non-Orthodox.

Please put aside all your prejudices and preconceived notions.  Open your hearts, your minds and your souls.
Give this subject some actual thought, don’t just tow the party line.

Ukraine, just like every other nation on this planet has had its name, politics, language, faith, geographic boundaries, etc. change over the years.  I am not trying to prove “who” or which peoples constitute Ukraine.  I am concerned for those who say they are Ukrainian.

Skimming through your post, you might also keep in mind those who say they not Ukrainian, those who say the Ukrainians are not, and those who claim those you call Ukrainian as their own. It helps to sort through all the claims, and evaluate them.

Quote
St. Andrew the First Called, walked upon the land which today is known as Ukraine.  He erected a Cross on a hill (in today’s city of Kyiv) and prophesied that a great Christian city would one day arise around that Cross.  

In 988 Prince Volodymyr had all of what was then known as Rus baptized into the Orthodox Faith.  This occurred in the lands where Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine, is situated today.  Orthodoxy was brought to Ukraine from Constantinople (not Moscow).  Moscow had yet to be established.


In this, Moscow and its establishment is irrelevant.  Though you call him Volodymyr, and hence Ukrainian, the Russians call him Vladimir, and claim him as Russian. Here he is on the Millenium of Russia monument in Novgorod, Russia, erected by the Czar in 1862 for the millenium of Rurik's (Volodymyr/Vladimir's great-grandfather, on the right, on the same monument) arrrival there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_of_Russia
The name is significant Тысячелетие России, not Руси, so of Russian, not Rus'. In other words, no distinction was made between the state Rurik founded, and the one that Czar Alexander I ruled in that day, not from Moscow (where he was crowned) but from St. Petersburg.  The fact that the Czar ruled from St. Petersburg and not from Moscow is an important point.  I'm not advocated here (not yet at least) that it was correct. Just stating how the Czar and those in line with his world thining saw things.

To make a comparison, if the Confederate States of America had succeeded, there would be a problem over George Washington, as both the USA and CSA would claim him as the founding father.

Quote
From 988 to 1686 the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was in the canonical jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Constantinople.

There was no Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Or Russian Orthodox Church, or Belorussian Orthdoox Church, or Ruthenian/Rusyn/Carpatho-Russian Church, or Lithuanian Orthodox Church (Lithuania also is involved in your questions). There was the Rus' Orthodox Church. It ceased to be under Constantinople's jurisdicion in 1448, when Constantinople went into schism and heresy and many of those in his jurisdiction (for instance, the Moldavians) refused to follow him into submission to the Vatican.  The Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus', Isodore, was expelled by St. Vladimir's Great(10x)-grand son Basil II, who wasn't in the dark when it came to the True Faith. Isodore was succeeded as Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus' by St. Jonah, who actually had been the nominee before Isodore but was unable to reach Constantinople for the Patriarch's blessing in time.

Quote
Ukraine had its own distinct Orthodox Church on its lands from that day forward, with a number of metropolitans to lead the Church.

Distinct from what? The Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, etc. yes. Distinct from the Russians, Belorussians, Ruthenians-not so much at this time.

Quote
Orthodoxy spread from Kyiv to all neighboring lands and peoples, however, it’s center remained Kyiv.

until 1299. In that year St. Met. Maximus (a Greek, btw) translated to Vladimir.  The Mongol-Tartars had left Kiev in ruins in 1240, as you note below.

Quote
Prince Volodymyr’s son, Yaroslav I the Wise, helped to fortify and build the city of Kyiv into the greatest and largest city of it’s time.  However, when he passed away in 1054 his sons squabbled over the land and eventually were defeated by the Mongols.

In the mid-15th century the Moscow metropoly broke with Kyiv and eventually constituted itself as a patriarchate, separate from Ukraine and Rus, in 1598.

Moscow broke with Constantinople, not Kiev, in the mid-15th century.  Met. St. Peter of Kiev and All Rus' had translated the see to there in 1325.  Part of the deal for Constantinople and the other Patriarchates to elevate Moscow into a Patriarchate was the transfer of Kiev with the rest of the Church under the Polish-Lithuanian crown back to Constantinople.

A comparison may be had with the Tomos of Autocephaly for the OCA: by it the Orthodox Church of Japan was re-attached under the direct jurisdiction of Moscow.

I have to run: I'll try to continue later. Lord willing.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 05:55:02 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2010, 06:12:22 PM »

May God grant it, Liza! And may wise and spiritual leaders be provided to lovingly care for the flock!
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2010, 06:51:20 PM »

The name is significant Тысячелетие России, not Руси, so of Russian, not Rus'.

It's called theft, or hijacking. Mmm. Not very moral. There was simply no Россия in 988. There was Rus', Русь, which is today's Ukraine and Belarus'.
Logged

Love never fails.
cossack 316
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian orthodox Church
Posts: 143


« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2010, 07:15:18 PM »

ialmisry, I have 3 questions for you, yes or no answers.

1. Should Ukraine have her own independent orthodox church sperate from the Russians and Greeks?

2. Have the Ukrainian been persecuted by the Soviets more than the Russians?

3. Should countries like Romania, Serbia, ect that have their own independent churches , should reliquish their auntomy and join either the EP or the MP?

Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2010, 07:24:48 PM »

The name is significant Тысячелетие России, not Руси, so of Russian, not Rus'.

It's called theft, or hijacking.

It's called inheritance.


Quote
Mmm. Not very moral.

Inheritance is quite moral.

Quote
There was simply no Россия in 988.

There was Ρωσία and الروس.

[/quote]There was Rus', Русь, which is today's Ukraine and Belarus'.
[/quote]

and Russia.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2010, 07:27:47 PM »

ialmisry, I have 3 questions for you, yes or no answers.

1. Should Ukraine have her own independent orthodox church sperate from the Russians and Greeks?

2. Have the Ukrainian been persecuted by the Soviets more than the Russians?

3. Should countries like Romania, Serbia, ect that have their own independent churches , should reliquish their auntomy and join either the EP or the MP?


Yes. Don't know. No.
Your point?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,849



WWW
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2010, 07:35:37 PM »


You can call him Vladimir, Volodya, Wally, I really don't care.
There is also a statue of this man, whom I call Prince Volodymyr, standing in Ukraine, by the Dnipro River, where all those people were actually baptized.

What's your point?
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
cossack 316
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian orthodox Church
Posts: 143


« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2010, 08:08:28 PM »

My point is to see if you are in fact anti Ukrainian as most of your points have illustrated and see whether you are a Russophile. If you don't know about the holodomor, well then I'm done discussing anything with you. People that deny the holodomor was anything but a caluclated plan by Stalin and the Soviets to wipe out the Ukrainian identity is the same as those that deny the holocaust. Iasmisry, I know from your past postings that you are well versed in eastern european history. I personally think you are a russophile and you have done nothing but defend the Russians/Soviets on everything they have done and attacked Ukrainians as being nationalistic.

May god have mercy on your soul.
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,849



WWW
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2010, 08:14:38 PM »


Cossack, my "what's your point" wasn't aimed at you, but, at Ialmisry concerning his comment about the Russian statute to St. Volodymyr.

So, now...are you talking to me or Ialmisry?

I do hope you aren't accusing me of being a Russophile!   Wink

Nor would I ever deny Holomomor...as my own family lived through it.  Neither would I ever defend the Soviets, as they murdered many of my family members and exiled others to misery and torture in Siberia.

So...I hope you aren't aiming those accusations at me....although I do hope that God will have mercy on my soul.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,849



WWW
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2010, 08:22:24 PM »

The name is significant Тысячелетие России, not Руси, so of Russian, not Rus'.

It's called theft, or hijacking.

It's called inheritance.


Who died and left the inheritance?  Doesn't someone have to die for someone else to inherit their goods?  Ukraine is certainly not dead.

As for your "Тысячелетие России, not Руси, so of Russian, not Rus" what's the source?  Let me guess Russian media?  Yup, the Russians would have claimed a millennium of Russia.  You know what?  In Ukraine they also celebrated, and I'll bet you they called it something else.

I celebrated right here in the USA.  I called it 1,000 years of Christianity in Ukraine.

Shall we take a vote and see who called it what the most?

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2010, 10:09:56 PM »

My point is to see if you are in fact anti Ukrainian as most of your points have illustrated
Roll Eyes
and see whether you are a Russophile.
I'm am a Russophile.  I've never denied that. Btw, you don't have to anti-Ukrainian to be Russophile or vice versa.

If you don't know about the holodomor,

Sure I know. We've discuessed it before. But you didn't ask about the Holodomor in your post.

Quote
well then I'm done discussing anything with you. People that deny the holodomor was anything but a caluclated plan by Stalin and the Soviets to wipe out the Ukrainian identity is the same as those that deny the holocaust.

And the Holodomor has what to do with a canonical autocephalous Church in Ukraine? If you can't demostrate the connection, you can comment here:
Looking at a map that documents it:
You would have to show a radical language/ethnicity change.

Btw, I don't back down when Zionists play the Holocaust card either. And I had choice words when Kitty Dukakis put her two cents in the matter, but repeating them here might bump this into politics.

Iasmisry, I know from your past postings that you are well versed in eastern european history. I personally think you are a russophile

You don't have to think it. It's not a secret. Nor a crime. Nor a sin.

and you have done nothing but defend the Russians/Soviets

Are you saying Russians=Soviets?

on everything they have done and attacked Ukrainians as being nationalistic.
Then you are reading selectively. Or not reading.

May gGod have mercy on your soul.
Хай береже Тебе Бог!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 10:11:20 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2010, 10:30:25 PM »

The name is significant Тысячелетие России, not Руси, so of Russian, not Rus'.

It's called theft, or hijacking.

It's called inheritance.


Quote
Mmm. Not very moral.

Inheritance is quite moral.

Quote
There was simply no Россия in 988.

There was Ρωσία and الروس.

Explain? Sources? Meaning?

Quote
There was Rus', Русь, which is today's Ukraine and Belarus'.

and Russia.

Where was Russia?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 10:32:57 PM by Heorhij » Logged

Love never fails.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2010, 10:40:57 PM »

The name is significant Тысячелетие России, not Руси, so of Russian, not Rus'.

It's called theft, or hijacking.

It's called inheritance.


Who died and left the inheritance?

Kievan Rus'

Quote
  Doesn't someone have to die for someone else to inherit their goods?  Ukraine is certainly not dead.

Wasn't born yet either in the days of either St. Volodymyr/Vladimir or Rurik. Not in the form of its existence today.

Quote
As for your "Тысячелетие России, not Руси, so of Russian, not Rus" what's the source?  Let me guess Russian media? 

The name of the statue. Actually monument: at the time one of the complaints was that it had too many statues.

Quote
Yup, the Russians would have claimed a millennium of Russia.  You know what?  In Ukraine they also celebrated, and I'll bet you they called it something else.

I'd have to see documentation on what they called it.

Quote
I celebrated right here in the USA.

In 1862? You look good for being nearly two hundred years old!

Quote
I called it 1,000 years of Christianity in Ukraine.

If you did, you differ from the traditional date by a century (actually, there were Chrisitians in present day Ukraine/the Rus' before St. Volodymyr/Vladimir, but I don't think that is what you had in mind).

In 1988 we did celebrate the Millenium of the Baptism of Rus' here in Chicago (us being the Russians, Serbs, Greeks, etc. The Ukrainians celebrated the next week).

Quote
Shall we take a vote and see who called it what the most?
Given the number of Russians and Ukrainians, do you really want to?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2010, 10:41:07 PM »

Pani Lizo and others who are interested,

I don't think there is any point in discussing this. Ialmisry will keep bombarding you with absolutely fake "sources" (including images, quotes from various encyclopedias, etc.) that all, without one single exception, were either directly or indirectly produced by "Moskvofiles," i.e. "historians" who never knew the first thing about any real history but were either directly on Moscow's payroll, or under the influence of those who were.

Ialmisry keeps asking me, "where is my paycheck from Moscow."

Isa, I don't know - maybe you have it and maybe you are depositing it (or, rather, them) to your bank account? Why are you asking, in the first place?

I despise this. I despise "historians" wo keep eating my country, my nation. Threats removed.

I can't agree with you. Spitting at someone certainly is a physical abuse and threatening to do it is not allowed here. You had already been informed about is. There is one thing that can be done with it - you have been put under 40-day-long moderation - mike.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 04:05:32 AM by mike » Logged

Love never fails.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2010, 10:43:37 PM »

There was simply no Россия in 988.

There was Ρωσία and الروس.

Explain? Sources? Meaning?

Rus' then, Russia now.

There was Rus', Русь, which is today's Ukraine and Belarus'.


and Russia.

Where was Russia?
Next to Ukraine and Belarus. Where it has always been.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 10:46:26 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2010, 10:53:48 PM »

ialmisry, I have 3 questions for you, yes or no answers.

1. Should Ukraine have her own independent orthodox church sperate from the Russians and Greeks?

2. Have the Ukrainian been persecuted by the Soviets more than the Russians?

3. Should countries like Romania, Serbia, ect that have their own independent churches , should reliquish their auntomy and join either the EP or the MP?


Yes. Don't know. No.
Your point?

Just to make sure, my yes to 1. was to an autocephalous Ukrainian Church in the diptychs of the Orthodox Churches.  You already have an independent Ukrainian church seperate from the Russians and Greeks. That's why it is in schism.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,849



WWW
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2010, 11:01:16 PM »

Sadly Heorhij has a point...even though as a witness he actually did NOT spit at anyone...so, nobody needs to get overly offended.
It was just a speck of spittle that escaped his lips in all the excitement.  

Ialmisry, I feel sad for you.

You always play the devil's advocate.  Like I said...the devil is threatened by Ukraine and will do whatever, use whomever, to destroy her.

As I stated in my OP, I am not a historian nor do I wish to be.

I know that today, in 2010, I am a Ukrainian.  There is a land known as Ukraine.  According to the canons of the Church that land has a right to an autonomous Orthodox Church.  

Regardless, I know you will disagree.

However, I am interested why you didn't have a reply or a counter argument to the canonicity or lack thereof, when the EP handed over UOC to the MP in 1686.  

I refer to this portion of my post:

It is historically recorded that the Ecumenical Church of Constantinople in 1924 publicly and officially proclaimed the joining of the Ukrainian Church to the Church of Moscow to be an uncanonical act; similarly, the Ukrainian Church itself struggled ceaselessly against this coercion, that is the Russian czarate, ceased to belong to the Church of Moscow (Canon37 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council).  Canon 8 of the Third Ecumenical Council clearly concerning this states:

"If anyone has violently taken and subjected (a Diocese), he shall give it up; lest the Canons of the Fathers be transgressed; or the vanities of the wordly honour be brought in under the pretext of sacred office; or we lose, without knowing it, little by little, the liberity which Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Delieverer of men, hath given us by His own Blood."

Besides this, Patriarch +TIKHON in 1920, officially approved the autocephalous governing of the Ukrainian Church, recognizing that this was essential for the well-being of the Church and in accordance to the demands of the whole Ukrainian Nation as well as the Clergy and the Episcopate.

He confirmed this a second time in his document Number 145 dated March 24, 1924. Because of this, the Ukrainian Church today is under no canonical dependence to the Church of Moscow.

As for Ukraine having the right to have its own Church, according to the Apostolic Canon 34, each nation has the right to its own autocephalous Church.  In addition, according to Canon 17 of the Fourth and Canon 38 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council, each Church must accomodate itself to new state boundries.



« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 11:07:58 PM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2010, 11:09:22 PM »


You can call him Vladimir, Volodya, Wally, I really don't care.
There is also a statue of this man, whom I call Prince Volodymyr, standing in Ukraine, by the Dnipro River, where all those people were actually baptized.

What's your point?

In 988 Prince Volodymyr had all of what was then known as Rus baptized into the Orthodox Faith.  This occurred in the lands where Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine, is situated today.  Orthodoxy was brought to Ukraine from Constantinople (not Moscow).  Moscow had yet to be established.


In this, Moscow and its establishment is irrelevant.  Though you call him Volodymyr, and hence Ukrainian, the Russians call him Vladimir, and claim him as Russian.

Btw, St. Volodymyr/Vladimir was baptized in Kerson, in Ukraine since 1954 curtesy of Stalin in the 300 year commemoration of the Treaty of Pereyaslav, where the Cossaks swore fealty to the Czar of All the Russias. A gift to Ukraine extorted by the Soviets from Russia.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2010, 11:22:39 PM »

Just wondering, when you say he "had all of Rus baptized", how was this done?  By decree, by force, or ... ?  I'm assuming no one was given a choice?
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2010, 11:24:35 PM »


You can call him Vladimir, Volodya, Wally, I really don't care.
There is also a statue of this man, whom I call Prince Volodymyr, standing in Ukraine, by the Dnipro River, where all those people were actually baptized.

What's your point?

In 988 Prince Volodymyr had all of what was then known as Rus baptized into the Orthodox Faith.  This occurred in the lands where Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine, is situated today.  Orthodoxy was brought to Ukraine from Constantinople (not Moscow).  Moscow had yet to be established.


In this, Moscow and its establishment is irrelevant.  Though you call him Volodymyr, and hence Ukrainian, the Russians call him Vladimir, and claim him as Russian.

Btw, St. Volodymyr/Vladimir was baptized in Kerson, in Ukraine since 1954 curtesy of Stalin in the 300 year commemoration of the Treaty of Pereyaslav, where the Cossaks swore fealty to the Czar of All the Russias. A gift to Ukraine extorted by the Soviets from Russia.

Yes. And Charlemaigne's capital was in Aachen, present day Germany. And the whole "world" "knows" that he was a Frankish (=French) king. So, the ambassador of France should come to Germany and say, "Look, guys, why are you so stubborn. You do not exist. Your so-called "nation" is just a part of the Great France. Your spiritual center is in Paris. Your so-called "German" language is just a dialect of French. And please do not argue. In your churches, you will pray for our French saints. In fact, your so-called "German" saints never existed. Or if they did, who cares. On January 33rd, you will be celebrating the Day of all Saints Who Shone in the Land of the French." And please, keep your so-called "German language" to yourselves. It's an abomination to God if you use it in Church."
Logged

Love never fails.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2010, 03:20:10 AM »

Sadly Heorhij has a point...even though as a witness he actually did NOT spit at anyone...so, nobody needs to get overly offended.
It was just a speck of spittle that escaped his lips in all the excitement.  

Ialmisry, I feel sad for you.

You always play the devil's advocate.

LOL. Is that a comment on me, or Russia? Anyways, no. I just call them as I see them.

 Like I said...the devil is threatened by Ukraine and will do whatever, use whomever, to destroy her.
How is the devil more threatened by Ukraine than by Holy Mother Russia, God protected Antioch or any other land or Orthodox Church? Is the devil scared of Filoret, or Met. Volodymyr?

As I stated in my OP, I am not a historian nor do I wish to be.

I know that today, in 2010, I am a Ukrainian.  There is a land known as Ukraine.  According to the canons of the Church that land has a right to an autonomous Orthodox Church.  

Regardless, I know you will disagree.

However, I am interested why you didn't have a reply or a counter argument to the canonicity or lack thereof, when the EP handed over UOC to the MP in 1686.  

In the mid-15th century the Moscow metropoly broke with Kyiv and eventually constituted itself as a patriarchate, separate from Ukraine and Rus, in 1598.
Moscow broke with Constantinople, not Kiev, in the mid-15th century.  Met. St. Peter of Kiev and All Rus' had translated the see to there in 1325.  Part of the deal for Constantinople and the other Patriarchates to elevate Moscow into a Patriarchate was the transfer of Kiev with the rest of the Church under the Polish-Lithuanian crown back to Constantinople.

A comparison may be had with the Tomos of Autocephaly for the OCA: by it the Orthodox Church of Japan was re-attached under the direct jurisdiction of Moscow.

I have to run: I'll try to continue later. Lord willing.


I refer to this portion of my post:

I'lll pick up where I left off, getting to the portion you refer to.

Ukraine/ Rus continued without Moscow in the mix, electing their own metropolitans, etc.

No. Isodore ran off to Rome to become a cardinal (and a Latin one at that).  The Vatican appointed Gregory I the Bulgarian as Metropolitan of Kiev, Galicia and All Rus', and he was confirmed by the "Patriarch of Constantinople" Gregory III, who supported the Emperor in forcing the "Union" of Florence (EP Metrophanes II dying within the day of signing it. God forgive him) on New Rome, until Gregory abandoned his see and fled to Old Rome, where he wrote polemics against St.Mark of Ephesus. The Orthodox, following St. Mark, igonred "EP" Gregory and his appointed "Metropolitan of Kiev, Galicia and All Rus'" Gregory, and instead St. Jonah succeeded as Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus'. Met. Gregory went to Lithuania, which was under in league with the Vatican and was preening itself as the successor state to Kievan Rus': hence the "the Grand Duchy of Lithuania" (and not kingdom. Btw, its official language was Ruthenian), like "the Grand Duchy of Moscow."

Met. Gregory went off to Lithuania, and when he comemorated the pope of Rome with the EP, the Orthodox refused to have him.  In 1469 he repented, went to Constantinople (which had returned to Orthodoxy) and was appointed Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus'. Met. St. Jonah, however, had hand picked his successor Met. Theodosius, blessed by the Metropolitan of Caesarea Philippi on behalf of the EP in 1464. Met. Theodosius in turn hand picked his successor Met. Philip, who arranged the marriage of the niece of the last Emperor of New Rome to the Grand Duke and successor of St. Volodymyr/Vladimir as Grand Prince of All Rus' at Moscow while banning the legates who came from the Vatican with her from setting foot in Moscow. He and his predecessors had fought Met. Gregory and Lithuania and the attempt of the Vatican to encrouch on the Rus'. Hence when the EP called on Moscow to recognize Met. Gregory as Metropolitan of All Rus', they balked, affirmed their autocephaly, and banned both Met. Gregory and any bishop associated with him from entering the Grand Duchy of Moscow.  Across the border, the Orthodox didn't trust Met. Gregory and refused to accept him.  When Lithuania appointed Met. Misael to succeed him (who flirted with the idea of submitting to the Vatican), Constantinople refused to confirm him, and in 1480 appointed a (Great) Russian Spyridon, a subject of Lithuania, as Metropolitan of Kiev.  He proved too popular with the Orthodox population in hte Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and the Grand Duke expelled him to Moscow, after arresting and imprisoning him for two years as "a Turkish spy" because of his pro-Constantinople stance. The Grand Duke of Lithuania, however, saw to counter Moscow in the race to succeed Kievan Rus' he had to win over his Orthodox subjects and let them, 1481 onward, elect their own Metropolitans with a legate of the EP confirming on the spot. How canonical that was, since the Rus' had been autocephalous by then for a generation, is questionable (the Met. Daniel tried Maxim the Greek in 1531 for not recognizing the Metropolitan and spying for Turkey) until 1589, when EP Joachim came to Moscow begging alms and elevated the see to Patriarch (thinking he would be appointed to it), when the relationship of Moscow, Kiev and Constantinople was regularized. Constantiople did start to make a distintion between Minor (the Rus' controlled by Lithuania) and Major (the Grand Duke/Czar of All Rus') Rus', viewing the fomer as de jure and the latter de facto until 1589
http://books.google.com/books?id=2cP0wc_E6yEC&pg=PA86&dq=Orthodox+Metropolitan+of+Lithuania&hl=en&ei=nXCATJbHJtPsngfO0tGxAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Orthodox%20Metropolitan%20of%20Lithuania&f=false
The Orthodox Church in the history of Russia By Dimitry Pospielovsky
http://books.google.com/books?id=hFVEOVpoHLsC&pg=PA292&dq=Orthodox+Metropolitan+of+Lithuania&hl=en&ei=nXCATJbHJtPsngfO0tGxAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA
The Orthodox Church in the Byzantine Empire By J. M. Hussey, Andrew Louth
http://books.google.com/books?id=xSpEynLxJ1MC&pg=PA18&dq=Orthodox+Metropolitan+of+Lithuania&hl=en&ei=nXCATJbHJtPsngfO0tGxAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Orthodox%20Metropolitan%20of%20Lithuania&f=false
The reconstruction of nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999 By Timothy Snyder
http://books.google.com/books?id=teyNhL3AuGEC&pg=PA389&dq=Orthodox+Metropolitan+of+Lithuania&hl=en&ei=nXCATJbHJtPsngfO0tGxAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Orthodox%20Metropolitan%20of%20Lithuania&f=false
Russian travelers to Constantinople in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries By George P. Majeska


On all occasions the Patriarch of Constantinople ratified these elections.  Therefore, they must have recognized Ukraine/Rus as a separate entity from Moscow.
As shown by the attempt to get Moscow to recognize Met. Gregory shows that they did not see Moscow as a seperate entity from Rus'. And it was between Moscow and Lithuania, there being no seperate entity as Ukraine at the time.  Although the EP's legate did ratify the elections in Lithuania 1481-1589 before that latter date no ratification of his autority to do so had been made by the autocephalous Metropolitan of All Rus'.

However, as always in the world of man, politics comes in to play…

That is how Rome, Constantinople, Kiev and Lithuania got their position.

and Russia wanted power over the land, the people and the Church.

Nothing that Poland nor Lithuania didn't want, as the Union of Brest showed in 1598 and thereafter.

The Muscovite influence over Ukraine grew.

After 1547 it was no longer the Grand Duchy of Moscow and All Rus', but the Tsardom of Moscow and All Rus' Its influence grew as Poland drove it into the Orthdoxo Czar's camp.

In 1686 the Kyiv metropoly was placed under the Patriarch of Moscow.  Why?


Kiev had been reunited with Moscow, who was able to defend it against the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and its Union of Brest.

Why was Ukraine handed over?

The Treaty of Hadiach of 1658 failed to gain support, so the idea of a Commonwealth of Three Nations fell flat, because the Sejm refused to countenance a Księstwo Ruskie "Ruthenian/Russian Duchy" and the Cossaks refused to give in to the szlachta, choosing the Czar instead, a decision sealed by the losses of the Commonweatlh to the Czardom.

Ukrainians did not ask nor wish for this to happen.  They petitioned, and argued and pleaded to no avail.

When it came in 1686, they accepted it without protest.
http://books.google.com/books?id=l5uiWHgRphQC&pg=PA156&dq=Gedeon+Sviatopolk-Chetvertynsky&hl=en&ei=j4qATNX7FsKCnQeUvYVq&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Gedeon%20Sviatopolk-Chetvertynsky&f=false

Tell me it wasn’t political.

When the EP's exarch sided with Poland-Lithuania in 1658, and the Cossacks with the Czar, the conclusion was foregone. The PoM appointed the Archbishop of Chernihiv as the temporary Metropolitan of the Left Bank, and waited and persuaded until the choice was made in Moscow's favor over Poland, Latinization and the Vatican.

Why had the Constantinople Patriarchate renounced it’s right to the Ukrainian Church?


It didn't want Poland handing it over to Old Rome.

From 988-1686 the Ukrainian Church

You mean All Rus'?

had been canonical (Canon 25, 5th Ecumenical Council)

The Fifth Council issued no canons. Are you thinking of the Pentheke/Quinsext Council of Trullo?
Quote
25. In addition to all the others we renew the Canon which prescribes that the rural or district parishes belonging to each church are to remain immutably assigned to the Bishops holding them, and especially in the case of those who managed to hold them for a period of thirty years without resorting to force. But if within thirty years there has been, or should be, any dispute about them, those who claim to have been wronged shall be permitted to bring the matter before the Synod of the province.
(c. XVII of the 4th; c. CXXVIII, CXXIX, CXXX of Carthage.)
Interpretation.
The present Canon renews c. XVII of the 4th, which it quotes verbatim, though not all of it, but only a part of it; wherefore see also the Interpretation of it there.

under the jurisdiction of the Constantinople Patriarchate.

Not so 1448-1589.

This transfer was unlawful

It was lawful, canonical and prudent.

and I pray that God forgive all those involved in it….for pity the Shepherd who intentionally loses his sheep, and the shepherd who steals another’s flock.

You mean the Vatican.

How was Moscow allowed to separate from RUS/Ukraine

Rus' =/= Ukraine.

Moscow didn't separate. The Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus' became Patriarch of Moscow, just as the Patriarch of Antioch now lives in Damascus.  It is no more a separation as the Metropolitna of North America going from Sitka to SF to NYC to now Washington is a seperation. Its a translation.

which was under Constantinople at the time to form the MP,

Constantiople went into heresy. The Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus' at Moscow held fast to Orthodoxy and became autocephalous, and then was elevated after a century+ to the Patriarchate of Moscow, Kiev going back (like the OCA giving Japan back in the Tomos of its Autocephaly) under Constantinople at the time.

and yet Ukraine/Rus could not?

The bishop of Moscow was the Patriarch of All Rus', and autocephalous.  The Exarch of Kiev, Galicia and All Minor Rus' (Constantinople's term) was not.

I won’t bore you will the entire history of Ukraine, because the central point here is not Ukrainian geo-political existence, but, the existence of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

In the canonical sense as you are describing it, it existed only 1589-1686.

I now proceed to your referenced points.


It is historically recorded that the Ecumenical Church of Constantinople in 1924 publicly and officially proclaimed the joining of the Ukrainian Church to the Church of Moscow to be an uncanonical act;
;

Constantantiople had in 1924 had recognized the Zombie a/k/a "Living Church" in Russia and its deposition of Patriarch St. Tikhon. The preceding EP was Met/Archb/EP/Pope Meletius. Do I need to say more on that, except that Constantinople was wrong (and pandering to the Polish government busy gobbling up Ukraine).  The EP could have recognized (but not canonically) the Ukrainian Church: it had representatives in Constantinople pushing for just that.

similarly, the Ukrainian Church itself struggled ceaselessly against this coercion, that is the Russian czarate, ceased to belong to the Church of Moscow (Canon37 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council).
Canon 37 of Trullo
Quote
37. Since at various times there have been inroads of barbarians, and many cities have as a result become subject to the iniquitous, so that the President of such a city has been unable after ordination to take possession of his own throne and to be installed therein in sacerdotal state, and thus to act and employ himself in accordance with the prevailing custom of bestowing ordinations and to do everything that pertains to a Bishop, we, being determined to safeguard the rights of the priesthood to honor and respect, and being nowise disposed to consent to any curtailment of ecclesiastical rights or to allow the heathen influence to be exercised over those so ordained, and on account of the cause recited above since they are unable to gain possession of their own thrones, we have seen fit to concur in decreeing that no prejudice shall result therefrom to prevent them from bestowing ordinations canonically upon various Clergymen, and from employing the authority of the presidency in accordance with the same definition; and that any and all administration advanced by them shall be sure and duly established. For the definition of economy shall not be restricted or limited by the circumstances of necessity or be circumscribed as touching its rigor.
(Ap. c. XXXVI; c. XVIII of Ancyra; cc. XVII, XVIII of Antioch.)
Interpretation.
The present Canon decrees that inasmuch as some prelates after being duly ordained have been unable to go to their thrones and eparchies, owing to the fact that their thrones have been captured by incursions of barbarians, for this reason, maintaining the respect and honor due to the prelacy, and being unwilling to let the fact of capture by barbarians become an obstacle to thwart ecclesiastical rights, we decree that those who have been thus ordained, and owing to the occasion and fear of barbarians have been unable to seat themselves upon their thrones, shall not be prejudiced as to their right to perform ordinations of various clergymen within their eparchy, even though they are far away from it (and see the Footnote to c. XVI of Antioch), as the Canons prescribe, and to have the honor and authority of the presidency in accordance with the same definition, or, more plainly speaking, according as their eparchy has been defined to be the first, say, or the second, the third, and so on; and anything they may do by virtue of any prelatical right, or, in other words, as prelates, is to be firm and legal. For although rigor, meaning the theoretical possibility of their going to their thrones and doing such things, has been lessened by the necessity of the time and of barbarians, yet the definition of economy, or more plainly speaking the right to do these things on their same throne even though far away from it, shall not be lessened on that account. Read also Ap. c. XXXVI.
If the Poles had won after 1658, it would be relevant. Rendering it irrelevant is why the Metropolia of Kiev went over to Moscow.

Canon 8 of the Third Ecumenical Council clearly concerning this states:"If anyone has violently taken and subjected (a Diocese), he shall give it up; lest the Canons of the Fathers be transgressed; or the vanities of the wordly honour be brought in under the pretext of sacred office; or we lose, without knowing it, little by little, the liberity which Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Delieverer of men, hath given us by His own Blood."

Since the Metropolia of Kiev was not taken by force, this has no application, in particular after 3 centuries. Btw, when it was issued the Church had 5 autocephalous Churches, the Patriarchates and the Archdiocese of Cypus were not independent 5 subject to the Emperor of the Romans.  Armenia was the only independent autocephalous Church at the time.

Besides this, Patriarch +TIKHON in 1920, officially approved the autocephalous governing of the Ukrainian Church, recognizing that this was essential for the well-being of the Church and in accordance to the demands of the whole Ukrainian Nation as well as the Clergy and the Episcopate.
If Patriarch St. Tikhon did this, it might be settled. Since it is not:what are you basing this on?

He confirmed this a second time in his document Number 145 dated March 24, 1924.

Do you have the text/link.

Because of this, the Ukrainian Church today is under no canonical dependence to the Church of Moscow.

Since all the canonical Orthodox Churches say otherwise, I'd have to see the ukaze.

As for Ukraine having the right to have its own Church, according to the Apostolic Canon 34, each nation has the right to its own autocephalous Church.

That is a common misinterpretation of the canon. It says nothing about autocephaly.

Quote
34. It behoves the Bishops of every nation to know the one among them who is the premier or chief, and to recognise him as their head, and to refrain from doing anything superfluous without his advice and approval: but, instead, each of them should do only whatever is necessitated by his own parish and by the territories under him. But let not even such a one do anything without the advice and consent and approval of all. For thus will there be concord, and God will be glorified through the Lord in Holy Spirit, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
(cc. VI, VII of the 1st; cc. II, III of the 2nd; c. VIII of the 3rd; o. XXVIII of the 4th; cc. XXXVI, XXXIX of the 6th; c. IX of Antioch.).
Interpretation.
Just as, when the head is unwell and fails to function properly, the other members of the body also are ill disposed or even utterly useless, so and in like manner it may be said that if the one acting as head in the Church does not honor her fitly, all the rest of the body of the Church will be out of order and unable to function. It is for this reason that the present Canon ordains that all bishops of every province ought to know who is the chief among them, i.e., the metropolitan; and ought to regard him as their head, and not to do anything unnecessary without consulting him, as respecting, that is to say, anything that does not pertain to the parishes of their bishoprics, but, extending beyond these limits, have to do with the common condition of the whole province, as, for instance, do questions concerning the dogmas, matters involving adjustments and corrections of common mistakes, the installation and ordination of prelates, and other similar things. Instead, they are to meet with the metropolitan and confer with him in regard to such common matters, and decide in common on what appears to them the best thing to be done. Each of the bishops should do by himself, without consulting his metropolitan, only those things that are confined to the limits and boundaries of his bishopric and to the territories that are subject thereto. But just as bishops should do nothing of common interest without consulting the metropolitan, so and in like manner a metropolitan ought not to do anything of such common interest alone and by himself without consulting all his bishops. For in this way there will be concord and love, both between bishops and metropolitans and between clergymen and laymen. The outcome of this concord and love will be that God the Father will be glorified through His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, who acquainted men with the name of His Father and laid down the law requiring love, when He said: "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one for another" (John 13:35). And He will be glorified in His Holy Spirit, which through Its grace has united us in one spiritual association. That is the same as saying that as a result of this concord the Holy Trinity — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit — will be glorified, in accordance with the voice of the Gospel which says: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and may glorify your Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 5:16).
Concord.
Almost identically the same things are seen to be ordained also in c. IX of Antioch. That is why c. VI of the First Ecumenical Council commands that the ancient customs are to hold; those, that is to say, which had been prevalent in accordance with this Ap. c.; so that the patriarch of Alexandria had control of affairs in Egypt and Libya and Pentapolis, since such was also the custom in connection with the patriarch of Rome too. Likewise the patriarch of Antioch had control of his own provinces; and, in general, the same privileges were preserved to every Church and Metropolis, so that every metropolitan should have control over the provinces subject to him. Canon VII of the same Council ordains that the patriarch of Aelia, i.e., of Jerusalem, is to have the observance of the ancient honor and the dignity of his own Metropolis, Canon III of the 2nd commands that the patriarch of Constantinople is to have the highest honor. Canon VIII of the 3rd, too, demands that the rights belonging to each province be free from constraint and impurity again even as in the beginning, according to the old custom, and especially as respects those of Cyprus. In addition, c. XXXIX of the 6th confirms the same c. VIII of the 3rd.


In addition, according to Canon 17 of the Fourth
The clause about appeal to Constantinople is relevant here, but the Phanar neither has the basis or moral authority (given its activities in North America, Greece, Antioch, etc.) to do anything about it. The final clause is the basis on which to state Ukraine's case.
Quote
17. As touching rural parishes, or country parishes, in any province, they shall remain in the undisputed possession of the bishops now holding them, and especially if they have held them in their possession and have managed them without coercion for thirty years or more. But if during a period of thirty years there has arisen or should arise some dispute concerning them, those claiming to have been unjustly treated shall be permitted to complain to the Synod of the province. But if anyone has been unjustly treated by his own Metropolitan, let him complain to the Exarch of the diocese, or let him have his case tried before the throne of Constantinople, according as he may choose. If, on the other hand, any city has been rebuilt by imperial authority, or has been built anew again, pursuant to civil and public formalities, let the order of the ecclesiastical parishes be followed.
(Ap. c. LXXIV; c. VI of the 1st; cc. IX, XXI of the 4th; cc. XIV, XV of Antioch; cc. VIII, XII, XIV, XV, XVI, XXVII, XXVIII, XXXVI, LXXXVII, XCVI, CV, CXV, CXVIII, CXXVIII, CXXIX, CXXX, CXXXVII, CXXXVIII, and CXXXIX; cc. XXV and XXXVIII of the 6th.)
Interpretation.
Rural parishes are small parishes which are situated in outlying and distant parts of the country, and being inhabited by few human beings they used to be called monoecia (which word meant, in Greek, "lone habitations"). Country parishes, on the other hand, are parishes which were near cultivated fields and villages, and had a greater number of inhabitants. So it is these parishes in every province that the present Canon commands to remain inalienable and indetachable from the bishops to whom they belong, and especially if they have belonged to them and been under their authority for as many as thirty years in good faith and without coercion, that is to say, without their being forced to submit to it and without their being grabbed up on an unjust or unfair pretext. But if during the course of the thirty years there had arisen any dispute concerning them, or if after the enactment of the present Canon there should arise any dispute concerning them, those who claim to have been unjustly treated in regard thereto are given permission to have their dispute considered by the Synod of the province. If, again, anyone should claim to have been unjustly treated in regard thereto by his Metropolitan, let him refer his case to the Exarch and chief head of the diocese (whose function, however, was abolished or fell into desuetude after this Fourth Ec. C. was held, as we said in Footnote to c. IX of the present C.), or to the Bishop of Constantinople, as previously stated. If, on the other hand, there has heretofore been built any city by imperial authority, or if any be so built hereafter, then the neighboring bishop shall not try to subject it to his own authority and claim it as a parish of his own, since the order of the parishes of that church have to follow the civil laws and ordinances which may be decreed by the emperor in regard to the newly-built city, not vice versa.
Note that, after dividing this Canon into two sections, the Sixth Ec. C. incorporated in its own c. XXV that part of this present canon which ends with the words "complain to the Synod of the province," while it incorporates the words following these to the end in its own c. XXXVIII. Note also that c.CXXIX of Carthage prescribes that if any bishop succeeds in converting any region of heretics to Orthodoxy and holding it for three years straight, without its being reclaimed by the one who ought to have reclaimed it, it shall no longer be subject to being reclaimed by him. The same Council’s c. CXXVIII declares that heretics converted to the catholic unity shall be subject to that throne to which the catholic union of Orthodox Christians situated therein had been subject of old. In addition, c. CXXX says that in case anyone deems any laity belonging to another to be wrongly held by him and appropriates it as his own, not by virtue of letters of the bishop possessing it, or at the request of the Council or Synod, but by despotism and assault, he shall lose that laity, even though it really were his, and even though he assert that he had letters from the chief head. Read also the Interpretations of Ap. c. LXXIV, of c. VI of the First Ec. C., and c. IX of the present Fourth Ec. C.

and Canon 38 of the Sixth Ecumenical Council, each Church must accomodate itself to new state boundries.

The argument stands on this:
Quote
38. We too retain the Canon which was laid down by our Fathers and which reads as follows: If any city has been rebuilt by imperial authority, or has been built anew again, pursuant to civil and public formalities, let the order of the ecclesiastical parishes be followed.
(c. XVII of the 4th.) (The present Canon is included in c. XVII of the 4th, and see the Interpretation of it there.)
You do realize that that is a political argument, no?

And the rest of your OP:

Therefore, why are all of you against Ukraine having her own Church?

I'll have to let those against Ukraine having a canonical autocephalous Church.

I am not actually in favor of the UOC-KP as it stands today.  I know that Ukraine can do much better for a Patriarch than this man.  For if he truly wanted what was best for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church he would have stepped down and allowed for another Patriarch to be elected.  His pride is hurting the entire effort of the UOC.

Indeed!

 P. Bartholomew would have long ago recognized the Ukrainian Church, if P. Filaret would have cooperated.
EP Bartholomew has no say in the matter.

However, while  I do not personally support P. Filaret, I do support the efforts of Ukraine to have an autonomous Ukrainian Church!

I support autocephaly.

I realize we are not there, yet, and what is going on in my homeland is NOT the favorable, desirable or even the correct way to go about this.  There are Church canons and rules to adhere to, however, these rules should always be adhered to, not only when it suits the political purposes of certain powers.

Now…go ahead and rip me to shreds with your fancy talk and myriads of arguments.  I can take it.  

God has not forsaken Ukraine.  He has always blessed her lands and her people.  Ukraine has given birth to numerous saints, miracles and faithful.

I know that God will restore the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, in His own time, appointing a man who is worthy to lead His flock.

I  can wait.

However, I will fight to defend Ukraine’s right to have religious freedom to the end.  

I am convinced that Ukraine is worthy and that the devil is threatened by her, and therefore, is dividing her faithful, in order to destroy Christ's Church.  We are all in that mix because of all our silly squabbling.  We are not trying to figure out an amicable solution.  We are simply trying to beat each other in to the ground.  Shameful.  

I support all Orthodox everywhere...and will do what I can to help any Orthodox person, nation or Church until my death.

I love you all!  I truly do.

God bless you.  Peace.

Liza
I have nothing to add to that.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 03:24:56 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,253



« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2010, 09:27:40 AM »


You can call him Vladimir, Volodya, Wally, I really don't care.
There is also a statue of this man, whom I call Prince Volodymyr, standing in Ukraine, by the Dnipro River, where all those people were actually baptized.

What's your point?

In 988 Prince Volodymyr had all of what was then known as Rus baptized into the Orthodox Faith.  This occurred in the lands where Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine, is situated today.  Orthodoxy was brought to Ukraine from Constantinople (not Moscow).  Moscow had yet to be established.


In this, Moscow and its establishment is irrelevant.  Though you call him Volodymyr, and hence Ukrainian, the Russians call him Vladimir, and claim him as Russian.

Btw, St. Volodymyr/Vladimir was baptized in Kerson, in Ukraine since 1954 curtesy of Stalin in the 300 year commemoration of the Treaty of Pereyaslav, where the Cossaks swore fealty to the Czar of All the Russias. A gift to Ukraine extorted by the Soviets from Russia.

Yes. And Charlemaigne's capital was in Aachen, present day Germany. And the whole "world" "knows" that he was a Frankish (=French) king. So, the ambassador of France should come to Germany and say, "Look, guys, why are you so stubborn. You do not exist. Your so-called "nation" is just a part of the Great France. Your spiritual center is in Paris. Your so-called "German" language is just a dialect of French. And please do not argue. In your churches, you will pray for our French saints. In fact, your so-called "German" saints never existed. Or if they did, who cares. On January 33rd, you will be celebrating the Day of all Saints Who Shone in the Land of the French." And please, keep your so-called "German language" to yourselves. It's an abomination to God if you use it in Church."

Actually, I think the Germans and the French had this discussion on at least three occasions.  I don't think the French got very far.  In fact, they say the Champs-Élysées is lined with trees because the Germans like marching in the shade.  Given the number of times that the piece of land called Ukraine has been governed by someone else (including Germans), comparing Ukraine with Germany is not a good comparison.  Has Ukraine historically ever thrown off an invader without Russian assistance?  Without Russia, there would be no Ukraine.  It would just be either the eastern most province of Poland or the northern most province of Turkey.  Being a southern province of Russia is what made Ukraine what it is today. 

Also, all civilized people know that God only hears prayers in German, and we should ignore all historians and other people who are on someone's payroll (take your pick) that say otherwise.  Yes, we will ignore all of the World's historians for at least the last several hundred years and have a mathematician tell us how the history REALLY was.  Now I just have to find a Nationalist German mathematician who was not hung at Nuremberg.
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,849



WWW
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2010, 10:13:11 AM »

Sadly Heorhij has a point...even though as a witness he actually did NOT spit at anyone...so, nobody needs to get overly offended.
It was just a speck of spittle that escaped his lips in all the excitement. 

Ialmisry, I feel sad for you.

You always play the devil's advocate.

LOL. Is that a comment on me, or Russia? Anyways, no. I just call them as I see them.

  Like I said...the devil is threatened by Ukraine and will do whatever, use whomever, to destroy her.
How is the devil more threatened by Ukraine than by Holy Mother Russia, God protected Antioch or any other land or Orthodox Church? Is the devil scared of Filoret, or Met. Volodymyr?

The comment was to you, who plays the devil's advocate.  Not Russia.

...and I am impressed, and a bit concerned that you seem to know what exactly the devil is threatened by. 

You think so highly of Russia, that you think it constitutes all of Orthodoxy.

Don't forget to put Christ at the head of His own Church, not Russia.


Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2010, 11:03:35 AM »

Sadly Heorhij has a point...even though as a witness he actually did NOT spit at anyone...so, nobody needs to get overly offended.
It was just a speck of spittle that escaped his lips in all the excitement.  

Ialmisry, I feel sad for you.

You always play the devil's advocate.

LOL. Is that a comment on me, or Russia? Anyways, no. I just call them as I see them.

 Like I said...the devil is threatened by Ukraine and will do whatever, use whomever, to destroy her.
How is the devil more threatened by Ukraine than by Holy Mother Russia, God protected Antioch or any other land or Orthodox Church? Is the devil scared of Filoret, or Met. Volodymyr?

The comment was to you, who plays the devil's advocate.  Not Russia.

...and I am impressed, and a bit concerned that you seem to know what exactly the devil is threatened by.

I do? I ended every sentence with a question mark.

You think so highly of Russia, that you think it constitutes all of Orthodoxy.

If I did, the ROCOR Cathedral is down the street I could join, and I wouldn't be in support of Ukrainian autocephaly.

Don't forget to put Christ at the head of His own Church, not Russia.
Wouldn't dream of it.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 11:05:10 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2010, 11:48:01 AM »


You can call him Vladimir, Volodya, Wally, I really don't care.
There is also a statue of this man, whom I call Prince Volodymyr, standing in Ukraine, by the Dnipro River, where all those people were actually baptized.

What's your point?

In 988 Prince Volodymyr had all of what was then known as Rus baptized into the Orthodox Faith.  This occurred in the lands where Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine, is situated today.  Orthodoxy was brought to Ukraine from Constantinople (not Moscow).  Moscow had yet to be established.


In this, Moscow and its establishment is irrelevant.  Though you call him Volodymyr, and hence Ukrainian, the Russians call him Vladimir, and claim him as Russian.

Btw, St. Volodymyr/Vladimir was baptized in Kerson, in Ukraine since 1954 curtesy of Stalin in the 300 year commemoration of the Treaty of Pereyaslav, where the Cossaks swore fealty to the Czar of All the Russias. A gift to Ukraine extorted by the Soviets from Russia.

Yes. And Charlemaigne's capital was in Aachen, present day Germany. And the whole "world" "knows" that he was a Frankish (=French) king. So, the ambassador of France should come to Germany and say, "Look, guys, why are you so stubborn. You do not exist. Your so-called "nation" is just a part of the Great France. Your spiritual center is in Paris. Your so-called "German" language is just a dialect of French. And please do not argue. In your churches, you will pray for our French saints. In fact, your so-called "German" saints never existed. Or if they did, who cares. On January 33rd, you will be celebrating the Day of all Saints Who Shone in the Land of the French." And please, keep your so-called "German language" to yourselves. It's an abomination to God if you use it in Church."

Actually, I think the Germans and the French had this discussion on at least three occasions.  I don't think the French got very far.  In fact, they say the Champs-Élysées is lined with trees because the Germans like marching in the shade.  Given the number of times that the piece of land called Ukraine has been governed by someone else (including Germans), comparing Ukraine with Germany is not a good comparison.  Has Ukraine historically ever thrown off an invader without Russian assistance?  Without Russia, there would be no Ukraine.  It would just be either the eastern most province of Poland

Notice who is on the bottom.



Quote
or the northern most province of Turkey.


Quote
Being a southern province of Russia is what made Ukraine what it is today.

Yes and no.  It the Treaty of Hadiach had stood, the rest of Ukraine would have been Polonized like West Galicia.  If the Khanate of Crimea stood and Hetman Bohdan's son Yurii Khmelnytsky remained in tribute to the Ottoman Sultan, it could have ended up like Romania. Or Albania.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 11:49:23 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
cossack 316
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian orthodox Church
Posts: 143


« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2010, 04:53:39 PM »

1924 Tomos of Ecumenical Patriarchate



A Tomos of Autocephaly (self-government) was issued by the Ecumenical Patriarch +GREGORIOS VII to the Orthodox Church of Poland which was headed by Metropolitan +DIONISIJ (Valedynsky). Due to the political circumstances (and territorial partitions) between the First and Second World Wars, most of the ancient Kyivan Metropolitanate was located within Poland. In this Tomos, the previous transfer of the Kyivan Church to the jurisdiction of Moscow (1685) was declared uncanonical and the independence of the Kyivan Metropolitanate (The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church) was fully restored.


PATRIARCHAL AND SYNODICALLY CANONICAL TOMOS


The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, November 13, 1924, concerning the declaration of the Orthodox Church in Poland as an Autocephalic Church.



+GREGORIOS VII, by the grace of God Archbishop of Constantinople -the New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch



The Holy Orthodox Church in the God-Protected Polish State, endowed with an autonomous system and administration and proving its firmness in faith, zealousness by charitable works has requested our Holy Apostolic and Ecumenical Patriarchal See to bless and confirm its autocephalous administrative system, considering that in the new circumstances of political life, only such a system can satisfy and guarantee its needs.

Examining this request with love, taking into consideration the structions of the holy canons, which have established that the system of church affairs should correspond with the political and community forms (IV Ecumenical Council, canon 17, VI Ecumenical Council, canon 38), as well as the reasoning of Photius: "It is acceptable that laws which relate to church affairs, and especially parish matters, should correspond with political and administrative changes", from another point of view, bowing before the demands of canonical obligations, which impose upon our Holy Ecumenical See concern for Orthodox Churches, who are in need; considering also the fact, which is not contradicted by history (for it is recorded that the first separation from our See of the Kyivan Metropolia and the Orthodox Metropolia of Lithuania and Poland, dependent upon it, as well as their incorporation within the Holy Moscovite Church was accomplished contrary to canon law, as also all that which was agreed upon regarding the full church autonomy of the Kyivan Metropolitan, who at the time had the title Exarch of the Ecumenical See), We and our Holy Metropolitans, Our beloved brothers and co-workers in the Holy Spirit, considered it our obligation to give ear to the request presented to Us by the Holy Orthodox Church in Poland and to give Our blessing and approval to its autocephalous and independent administration.



As a consequence of this conciliar decision, following the guidance of the Holy Spirit, We have decided: to recognize an autocephalic administration for the Orthodox Church in Poland and give our blessings to this, so that from this day on It may be governed as a spiritual Sister, and decided Its affairs independently and in an autocephalic manner, according to the regulations and unlimited rights of other Holy Autocephalic Orthodox Churches, recognizing as its Supreme Church Authority, the Holy Synod, composed of orthodox canonical bishops in Poland, whose president shall at all times be the Blessed Metropolitan of Warsaw and of all Poland. To preserve and canonically maintain united with Our Holy Apostolic Ecumenical Patriarchal See, as well as with all other Autocephalic Orthodox Churches, We mention here the obligations which every Metropolitan of Warsaw and of all Poland will have: ie. to inform, according to the regulations of the Holy Orthodox, of his election and enthronization by an enthronization letter Our Great Christian Church as well as all other Autocephalous Orthodox Sister-Churches: To retain everything related to a firm maintenance of the Faith and Orthodox piety, as well as all that is commanded by the holy canons and regulations of the Orthodox Church; to also commemorate in accordance with regulations in the Diptychs the name of the Ecumenical Patriarch and other Patriarchs as well as the Hierarchs of other Autocephalic Churches.

In addition to this we decree, that the Autocephalous Orthodox Sister-Church in Poland must obtain its Holy Myrh (oil) from Our Great Christian Church. We advise at this time, that in matters concerning church order and in matters of a more general nature, which are beyond the jurisdictional limits of every Autocephalous Church acting individually, that the Blessed Metropolitan of Warsaw and of all Poland to apply to Our Holy Ecumenical Patriarchal See, through whose mediation union with every Orthodox Church, "... rightly teaching the word of truth" and request authoritive opinions and help from Sister-Churches.

Having carefully reviewed and considered all this at canonical meetings of the Holy Synod on the sixth and eleventh of November, 1924, We have entrusted, after the approval of the Synod, this Synodical and Patriarchal Tomos, accurately and unalteredly copied, as it is recorded in the Codex of Our Great Christian Church, to the Blessed +DIONISIJ, Our beloved brother and co-worker in Christ, Metropolitan of Warsaw and of all Poland and President of the Holy Synod of the Autocephalic Orthodox Church in Poland.



May the Lord God strengthen unto the ages, by the grace and merits of the First Great and Supreme Pastor, Christ our God, the Autocephalous Sister-Church in Poland, so fortunately organized, may He raise and increase everything in it to the glory of His Holy Name, for the benefit of Its pious flock and for the joy of all Autocephalous Orthodox Sister Churches.

In the year of Our Lord 1924, November 13th.

The Patriarch of Constantinople, +GREGORIOS VII (Approved).
The Metropolitan of Kiza, +KALYNYK
The Metropolitan of Sardia and Pisidia, +HERMAN
The Metropolitan of Nicea, BASIL
The Metropolitan of Chaldea, +JOAKIM
The Metropolitan of Philadelphia, +PHOTIUS
The Metropolitan of Derkos, +CONSTANTINE
The Metropolitan of Syliria, +EUGENE
The Metropolitan of Brus, +NICODEMOUS
The Metropolitan of Rodopolia, +CYRIL
The Metropolitan of the Princes Islands, +AHAFANAHEL
The Metropolitan of Neocesarea, +AMBROSIOS
The Metropolitan of Anea, +THOMAS

The Ecumenical Patriarchate, November 13, 1924
Chancellor HERMAN, Metropolitan of Sardia

source: www.en.uockp.net - mike
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 03:11:42 PM by mike » Logged
cossack 316
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian orthodox Church
Posts: 143


« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2010, 04:57:45 PM »

When Ukraine itself became independent in 1991 Metropolitan Filaret of the UOC in Ukraine, under the Moscow Patriarch led the bishops of Ukraine in an attempt to obtain official approval for autocephaly from Moscow. The bishops were dissuaded and Metropolitan Filaret was pressured to resign his see. He agreed to do so upon returning to Ukraine. Instead he entered into a quick unity agreement with Metropolitan Anthony (Masendych), whom Patriarch Mstyslav left in charge of the UAOC, and so in 1992 was formed the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate) with Patriarch Mstyslav as the leader of all ukrainian orthodox faithful throughout the world.. The rest of Metropolitan Filaret's bishops who previously signed the documents to leave the Moscow Patriarchate were pressured and forced to call a Sobor in Kharkiv and elected Metropolitan Volodymyr (Sabodan) of Novgorod, Russia, to be the new primate of Moscow's Church in Ukraine.  The UOC (Kyivan Patriarchate) is the third largest orthodox church in the world.
Logged
cossack 316
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian orthodox Church
Posts: 143


« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2010, 04:58:17 PM »

I. A TIMELINE OF ORTHODOXY IN UKRAINE


Apostolic Age: Andrew the Apostle, negotiating the Dnipro River, prophesied that a great city would be built upon the site of what is now known as Kyiv and that God would cause many Churches to rise upon the hills of the city.

c.

860 - Cyrillic alphabet formulated by Greek brothers, Saints Cyril and Methodius.



955 - Saints Ol’ha & Volodymyr’s grandmother, accepted Orthodox baptism from the Greeks, perhaps in Constantinople.



988 - Baptism of the inhabitants of Rus’-Ukraine in the Dnipro River by Orthodox clergy from Constantinople.



988-1240 - Many churches are built and monasteries established, including: the Church of the Tithes, Monastery of the Dormition, Cathedral of St. Sophia, St. Michael’s Monastery.



1015 - First saints of Ukrainian Church, Ss. Boris & Hlib, are martyred.



1051 - First native Ukrainian, Metropolitan Ilarion, is enthroned as Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Rus’ - head of the Ukrainian Church.



1147 - Metropolitan Klym is enthroned as Metropolitan of Kyiv; Ukraine’s canonical dependence upon Constantinople diminishes. Moscow is established and settled by Prince Yuri Dolgoruky.



1240 - Mongols destroy Kyiv.

1415 - Moscow Church formally separated from Kyivan Metropolitanate. By 1448, Moscow metropolitans bear the title “Metropolitan of Moscow.” The Kyivan Metropolitans continue to be accorded the title “Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Rus’. Total and complete separation is achieved in 1458.



1453 - Fall of Constantinople to the Turks. The Church of Ukraine further separated from the Church of Constantinople and enjoys de facto autocephaly [self-government]. Metropolitan of Kyiv serves according to the order reserved for heads of independent Churches.



1581 - Printing of the first complete Orthodox Bible in the Ukrainian language - Ostrih Bible.



1596 - Union of Brest is forged wherein a portion of the Ukrainian Church, under Polish repression and domination, accepts union with the See of Rome, thereby creating the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.



1640’s - St. Petro Mohyla, Metropolitan of Kyiv, writes Orthodox Confession of Faith, the first Orthodox dogmatic theology textbook; he also compiles the Great Trebnyk [collection of blessings and lesser services of the Church], some of which is in the Ukrainian language.



1654 - Treaty of Pereyaslev between Ukraine and Moscow; Ukrainian Hetman Bohdan Khelnystkyj is forced, by severe repression of Ukrainians living within the Polish kingdom, to turn to Moscow for assistance. This and subsequent treaties are used by Moscow as a pretext for interference in Ukrainian political and Church life.



 
II. MOSCOW LITERALLY "PURCHASES" THE KYIVAN METROPOLITINATE FROM CONSTANTINOPLE


1685 - Moscow purchases jurisdiction over the Kyivan Metropolitanate from the Patriarch of Constantinople for 120 sable furs and 200 pieces of gold; decrees issued by Patriarch Dionisios IV of Constantinople, safeguarding the autonomy of the Kyivan Church are, over time, increasingly ignored by Moscow.  Patriarch Dionisios is eventually removed for his actions.



1721 - Kyivan Metropolitanate is forcefully reduced to the status of an Eparchy within the reorganized Russian Orthodox Holy Synod.



1800’s - Kyivan [Ukrainian] Church ceases to exist, except in the underground. Russian hierarchs rule Ukrainian eparchies. Ukrainian religious intelligentsia are forced, due to lack of opportunities for education and advancement in Ukraine, to serve in Moscow or are subjected to arrest.



1863 - Ukrainian language is banned within the Russian Empire.


III. UKRAINIAN AUTOCEPHALOUS CHURCH - LYPSKIVSKYJ

 
1921 - Sobor of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Kyiv ordains Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkivskyj as head of the UAOC. Persecutions from the Soviet government and Moscow's Russian Orthodox Church deter the UAOC from permanently establishing ecclesiastical order for an extended period of time.



1924 - A Tomos was issued by His All-Holiness Gregorios VII Haddad, Ecumenical Patriarch, re-establishing the historic Kyivan-Rus’ (Ukrainian) Metropolitanate as an Autocephalous Church, placing the responsibility of establishing a new Synod of Bishops upon His Beatitude, the Metropolitan Archbishop of Warsaw, Dionisij Valedynskyj.

Since in the past there never existed a Polish Orthodox Metropolinate, the autocephaly of the Polish Orthodox Church was recognized on the grounds that actually support recognition of a Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church.

Relative to the existence of the autocephalous Orthodox Churches outside their homelands, the 37-th Rule of the VI-th Ecumenical Council states that the bishops who become exiled, as a result of the occupation of their canonical territories by the barbarians (foreigners), should retain their ecclesiastical powers and authority over their exiled flocks. 

In practice this rule was applied in the VII-th century when Saracens occupied Cyprus. Then the hierarchy, clergy, and a great number of believers of the Cypriote Autocephalous Orthodox Church was given refuge in Hellespont and allowed to function as an independent entity.

1924 - Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkiwskyj  sends Metropolitan Ioan (John) Theodorovich to head the Eparchy of The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church in North America, an integral part of The church of Ukraine.

1927 - Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkiwskyj is placed under house arrest.  A Sobor of the UAOC, chooses Metropolitan Mykola Boretskyj to head the UAOC.

1937 - Metropolitan Vasyl Lypkiwskyj is shot to death by the NKVD.


IV. UKRAINIAN AUTOCEPHALOUS ORTHODOX CHURCH - SIKORSKY


1932 - One more bishop, Ukrainian by origin, Archbishop Polikarp Sikorsky was ordained who was later granted the title Bishop of Lutsk, and Archbishop Olexiy Hromadsky became head of the whole Volyn Eparchy. Under his leadership Poland - occupied Ukrainian Church began to build up its national life and became practically independent.



1941 - The Sobor of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church. The participants in the Sobor/Synod, many of whom were Russian-oriented, decided to keep the Ukrainian Church in German-occupied Ukraine in canonical dependence upon the Moscow Patriarchate. Archbishop Oleksiy was declared by the synod to be Metropolitan of this church which came to be known as the "Autonomous Church".

Autumn, 1941 - Metropolitan Feofil Buldovsky of Kharkiv, who was ordained in 1923 as a bishop of the Moscow Patriarchate, joined the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church. In 1942 he became head of the UAOC in Left-Bank (Eastern) Ukraine. Poor health prevented Metropolitan Feofil from fleeing Ukraine when the Bolsheviks retook Ukraine from the Germans in 1944.

December 24, 1941 - Metropolitan Dionisij Valedynskyj [of the Polish Orthodox Church - Ecumenical Patriarchate, who's primary ordaining bishop in 1913 was Gregorious IV, Patriarch of Antioch, successor in the apostolic lineage of St. Peter] designated Bishop Polikarp Sikorsky [consecrated in 1932 by Metropolitan Dionisij] temporary administrator of German-occupied Ukrainian lands and granted him the title of Archbishop of Lutsk and Kovel.



February 9-10, 1942 - Metropolitan Dionisij blesses the meeting of the Ukrainian Episcopate in Pinsk (Byelorussia) at the First Synod of Bishops of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) which restores canonical ties and unity with the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. During this historical meeting, Archimandrite Nikanor Abramovych (February 9) and Archimandrite Ihor Huba (February 10) are ordained by Archbishop Polikarp Sikorsky, Archbishop Olexander Inozemtsev and Bishop (later Metropolitan of Warsaw) Yuri Korenastov. Mitropolit Dionisij assigns them to serve as joint vicars of Archbishop Polikarp with responsibilities in Kyiv.



May 9- 17, 1942 - The ordination of the following new Bishops of the UAOC, with the permission of Mitropolit Dionisij, occurred in the Cathedral of St. Andrew in Kiev under the presidencies of the Vicars of the Mitropolit, Archbishops Nikanor and Ihor:



Bishop Fotij Tymoshchuk to rule Chernihiv (May 9);

Bishop Manuyil Tarnavsky to rule Bilotserkiv (May 10);

Bishop Mychayil Khoroshy to rule Yelysavetrad (May 12);

Bishop (1st Patriarch) Mstyslav Skrypnyk to rule Pereyaslav (May 14);

Bishop Sylvester Hayevsky to rule Lubny (May 16); and,

Bishop Hryhorij Ohijchuk to rule Zhytomyr (May 17).



Soon after, Metropolitan Dionisij and Archbishops Oleksander and Polikarp approved all the actions of the Sobor/Synod.



1942-43 - The following bishops were ordained:


Bishop Hennadij Shyprykevych to rule Dnipropetrovske (May 24)

Bishop Volodymyr Malets' to rule Cherkasy (June 23);

Bishop Platon Artemyuk to rule Rivne (August 2);

Bishop Vyacheslav Lisytsky to rule Dubno (September 13); and

Bishop Serhij Okhotenko to rule Melitopol (August 1, 1943).



October 8, 1942 - Archbishop Nikanor and Bishop (later Patriarch) Mstyslav of the UAOC and Metropolitan Oleksiy (Hromadsky) of the Autonomous Church sign an Act of Union at the Pochaev Lavra. However, German occupation authorities and pro-Russian hierarchs of the Autonomous Church forced Metropolitan Oleksiy to remove his signature. Metropolitan Oleksiy was shot to death in Volynia on May 7, 1943.


V. AFTER WORLD WAR II


1944 - After World War II, many of the bishops of the UAOC fled to the West, via Germany, some eventually reaching the United States, where they headed various jurisdictions of the UAOC. The UAOC in Ukraine is liquidated by the Soviets with the assistance of the Patriarchate of Moscow. Any UAOC hierarchs or clergy remaining in Ukraine who refused to join the Russian Church were executed or sent to concentration camps. In the next several years, the same action is taken against the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Western Ukraine and Transcarpathia.



1950 - the resettlement of UAOC hierarchs, clergy and faithful in Western Europe, North and South America and in Australia.



1950-1991 - period of growth for The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church in The USA under Metropolitan Mstyslav 

1988 - Celebration of the Millenium of the Baptism of Rus’-Ukraine and the establishment of the Ukrainian Church by Orthodox Ukrainians throughout the free world. The focus of the Moscow Patriarchate’s celebration is in Moscow [founded 1147].



1989 - [August] Third 20th-century rebirth of the UAOC. The church of Ss. Peter and Paul in L’viv is the first parish to leave the Moscow Patriarchate. [October] Bishop Ioan [Bodnarchuk] of Zhytomyr, responding to appeals from the UAOC, resigned his position within the Moscow Patriarchate in order to lead the UAOC.



1990 - [June] A Sobor (Church Council) held in Kyiv elected Metropolitan Mstyslav (Skrypnyk), one of the "second UAOC formation" Bishops who was primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA and the Diaspora, as Patriarch of Kyiv. However when Ukraine itself became independent in 1991 Metropolitan Filaret of the UOC in Ukraine, under the Moscow Patriarch led the bishops of Ukraine in an attempt to obtain official approval for autocephaly from Moscow. The bishops were dissuaded and Metropolitan Filaret was pressured to resign his see. He agreed to do so upon returning to Ukraine. Instead he entered into a quick unity agreement with Metropolitan Anthony (Masendych), whom Patriarch Mstyslav left in charge of the UAOC, and so in 1992 was formed the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate) with Patriarch Mstyslav as the leader of all ukrainian orthodox faithful throughout the world.. The rest of Metropolitan Filaret's bishops who previously signed the documents to leave the Moscow Patriarchate were pressured and forced to call a Sobor in Kharkiv and elected Metropolitan Volodymyr (Sabodan) of Novgorod, Russia, to be the new primate of Moscow's Church in Ukraine.  The UOC (Kyivan Patriarchate) is the third largest orthodox church in the world. It is currently headed by His Holiness Patriarch Filaret and its numbers and prestige are on the rise.



1993 - [June] Repose of Patriarch Mstyslav and election of Patriarch Volodymyr Romaniuk as Ukraine's second Patriarch.



1995 - Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA enters into communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople under Bartholemew I, Ecumencal Patriarch, distancing themselves from the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church and the Tomos of Autocephaly granted in 1924. Effectively allowing the UAOC in the diaspora to relinquish its independence which was paid for with thousands of lives, both clergy and faithful.  They allowed the Ecumenical Patriarchate to issue them new Greek Bishophoric Sees and are under the direct control of the Ecumenical Patriarch and have no relation to Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine.

 



source: www.en.uockp.net - mike
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 03:12:04 PM by mike » Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2010, 07:03:34 PM »

Ukraine WILL have her own autocephalous Orthodox Church.

It WILL happen, sooner or later, no matter what Moscow wants and no matter how much Moskvophile Ukrainophobic propaganda is pouring out into the world, deceiving people, and no matter how much paid and unpaid agents of the Kremlin help it spread.

ALL autocephalies have always stuggled for their autocephaly, and many got lambasted with spiteful names like "schismatics," "immature," "putting their nationalism in front of their religion," etc. That is a regular thing, because high-positioned prelates fight for their "turf." (Plus, in the case of Ukraine, it's also a crumbling Eurasian Empire trying to strangle its ideologic rival, a young European-, Western-leaning national state.) But that tends to pass.

Ukraine is no exception. Again, Ukraine WILL have her own autocephalous Orthodox Church. Right now, we all have two choices: support what will most certainly happen, or immerse ourselves in lies, prejudices, and demagoguery.
Logged

Love never fails.
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2010, 07:03:34 PM »


You can call him Vladimir, Volodya, Wally, I really don't care.
There is also a statue of this man, whom I call Prince Volodymyr, standing in Ukraine, by the Dnipro River, where all those people were actually baptized.

What's your point?

In 988 Prince Volodymyr had all of what was then known as Rus baptized into the Orthodox Faith.  This occurred in the lands where Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine, is situated today.  Orthodoxy was brought to Ukraine from Constantinople (not Moscow).  Moscow had yet to be established.


In this, Moscow and its establishment is irrelevant.  Though you call him Volodymyr, and hence Ukrainian, the Russians call him Vladimir, and claim him as Russian.

Btw, St. Volodymyr/Vladimir was baptized in Kerson, in Ukraine since 1954 curtesy of Stalin in the 300 year commemoration of the Treaty of Pereyaslav, where the Cossaks swore fealty to the Czar of All the Russias. A gift to Ukraine extorted by the Soviets from Russia.

Yes. And Charlemaigne's capital was in Aachen, present day Germany. And the whole "world" "knows" that he was a Frankish (=French) king. So, the ambassador of France should come to Germany and say, "Look, guys, why are you so stubborn. You do not exist. Your so-called "nation" is just a part of the Great France. Your spiritual center is in Paris. Your so-called "German" language is just a dialect of French. And please do not argue. In your churches, you will pray for our French saints. In fact, your so-called "German" saints never existed. Or if they did, who cares. On January 33rd, you will be celebrating the Day of all Saints Who Shone in the Land of the French." And please, keep your so-called "German language" to yourselves. It's an abomination to God if you use it in Church."

Actually, I think the Germans and the French had this discussion on at least three occasions.  I don't think the French got very far.  In fact, they say the Champs-Élysées is lined with trees because the Germans like marching in the shade.  Given the number of times that the piece of land called Ukraine has been governed by someone else (including Germans), comparing Ukraine with Germany is not a good comparison.  Has Ukraine historically ever thrown off an invader without Russian assistance?  Without Russia, there would be no Ukraine.  It would just be either the eastern most province of Poland or the northern most province of Turkey.  Being a southern province of Russia is what made Ukraine what it is today. 

Also, all civilized people know that God only hears prayers in German, and we should ignore all historians and other people who are on someone's payroll (take your pick) that say otherwise.  Yes, we will ignore all of the World's historians for at least the last several hundred years and have a mathematician tell us how the history REALLY was.  Now I just have to find a Nationalist German mathematician who was not hung at Nuremberg.

I appreciate the sarcasm, but somehow if one publicly says that French are actually German and their spiritual center is in Aachen, you and all others will most certainly say that the person is a lunatic. However, when Patr. +KIRILL comes to Kyiv and says that Ukrainians are actually Russian and their spiritual center is in Moscow, you do not say that. Instead, let's pull out gazillion "arguments" and images, the way Isa does it, and keep "proving" that black is actually white, that war is peace, that the moon is made of green cheese and that we just should all remain Orthodox.  Kiss
Logged

Love never fails.
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2010, 07:03:34 PM »

The bogus story that "without Russia, there would be no Ukraine" is a classical "thought virus" Moscow wants everybody to believe. Moscow is portrayed as the "liberator" of Ukrainians from the Polish "yoke." In fact, in 1654, when Bohdan Khmel'nyts'kyj made a deal with Tzar Aleksey Mikhailovich, Ukraine had already been an independent state for six years. The deal with the Tzar was perceived by Ukrainians as merely a tactic military alliance.
Logged

Love never fails.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2010, 08:59:18 PM »

1924 Tomos of Ecumenical Patriarchate



A Tomos of Autocephaly (self-government) was issued by the Ecumenical Patriarch +GREGORIOS VII to the Orthodox Church of Poland which was headed by Metropolitan +DIONISIJ (Valedynsky). Due to the political circumstances (and territorial partitions) between the First and Second World Wars, most of the ancient Kyivan Metropolitanate was located within Poland. In this Tomos, the previous transfer of the Kyivan Church to the jurisdiction of Moscow (1685) was declared uncanonical and the independence of the Kyivan Metropolitanate (The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church) was fully restored.
The Metropolia of Kiev was never autocephalous and independent until the Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus', resident at Moscow, became autocephalous in 1448. Neither the schismatic Metropolia after that date to 1589, nor the Exarchate after that date till 1686 was independent or autocephalous.  You cannot restore, fully or partially, what never was.

Due to the political circumstances (and territorial partitions) between the  Khmelnytsky Uprising and Russo-Turkish War, almost all of the ancient  Metropolitanate of Kiev was located within Russia., headed by Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus', now the Patriarch of Moscow and All Rus'.

There is a canon of limitations: 30 years. And even if that was waived, there is no basis for Constantinople's jurisdiction to void the reunion of the ancient Church of the Rus' in 1685.  The indictment against Constantinople (expressed by St. John Maximovich of Shanghai and SF):
Quote
Historical Background
The primacy among Orthodox Churches is possessed by the Church of the New Rome, Constantinople, which is headed by a Patriarch who has the title of Ecumenical, and therefore is itself called the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which territorially reached the culmination of its development at the end of the 18th century. At that time there was included in it the whole of Asia Minor, the whole Balkan Peninsula (except for Montenegro), together with the adjoining islands, since the other independent Churches in the Balkan Peninsula had been abolished and had become part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The Ecumenical Patriarch had received from the Turkish Sultan, even before the taking of Constantinople by the Turks, the title of Millet Bash, that is, the head of the people, and he was considered the head of the whole Orthodox population of the Turkish Empire. This, however, did not prevent the Turkish government from removing patriarchs for any reason whatever and calling for new elections, at the same time collecting a large tax from the newly elected patriarch. Apparently the latter circumstance had a great significance in the changing of patriarchs by the Turks, and therefore it often happened that they again allowed on the Patriarchal Throne a patriarch whom they had removed, after the death of one or several of his successors. Thus, many patriarchs occupied their see several times, and each accession was accompanied by the collection of a special tax from them by the Turks.

In order to make up the sum which he paid on his accession to the Patriarchal Throne, a patriarch made a collection from the metropolitans subordinate to him, and they, in their turn, collected from the clergy subordinate to them. This manner of making up its finances left an imprint on the whole order of the Patriarchate’s life. In the Patriarchate there was likewise evident the Greek “Great Idea,” that is, the attempt to restore Byzantium, at first in a cultural, but later also in a political sense. For this reason in all important; posts there were assigned people loyal to this idea, and for the most part Greeks from the part of Constantinople called the Phanar, where also the Patriarchate was located. Almost always the episcopal sees were filled by Greeks, even though in the Balkan Peninsula the population was primarily Slavic.

The "Self-Aggrandizement of Constantinople"
Such an outward abasement of the hierarch of the city of St. Constantine, which was once the capital of the ecumene, has not caused reverence toward him to be shaken among Orthodox Christians, who revere the See of Sts. Chrysostom and Gregory the Theologian. From the height of this See the successor of Sts. John and Gregory could spiritually guide the whole Orthodox world, if only he possessed their firmness in the defense of righteousness and truth and the breadth of views of the recent Patriarch Joachim III. However, to the general decline of the Ecumenical Patriarchate there has been joined the direction of its activity after the Great War. The Ecumenical Patriarchate has desired to make up for the loss of dioceses which have left its jurisdiction, and likewise the loss of its political significance within the boundaries of Turkey, by submitting to itself areas where up to now there has been no Orthodox hierarchy, and likewise the Churches of those states where the government is not Orthodox. Thus, on April 5, 1922, Patriarch Meletius designated an Exarch of Western and Central Europe with the title of Metropolitan of Thyateira with residency in London; on March 4, 1923, the same Patriarch consecrated the Czech Archimandrite Sabbatius Archbishop of Prague and All Czechoslovakia; on April 15, 1924, a Metropolia of Hungary and All Central Europe was founded with a See in Budapest, even though there was already a Serbian bishop there. In America an Archbishopric was established under the Ecumenical Throne, then in 1924 a Diocese was established in Australia with a See in Sydney. In 1938 India was made subordinate to the Archbishop of Australia.

At the same time there has proceeded the subjection of separate parts of the Russian Orthodox Church which have been torn away from Russia. Thus, on June 9, 1923, the Ecumenical Patriarch accepted into his jurisdiction the Diocese of Finland as an autonomous Finnish Church; on August 23, 1923, the Estonian Church was made subject in the same way, on November 13, 1924, Patriarch Gregory VII recognized the autocephaly of the Polish Church under the supervision of the Ecumenical Patriarchate—that is, rather autonomy. In March, 1936, the Ecumenical Patriarch accepted Latvia into his jurisdiction. Not limiting himself to the acceptance into his jurisdiction of Churches in regions which had fallen away from the borders of Russia, Patriarch Photius accepted into his jurisdiction Metropolitan Eulogius in Western Europe together with the parishes subordinate to him, and on February 28, 1937, an Archbishop of the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarch in America consecrated Bishop Theodore-Bogdan Shpilko for a Ukrainian Church in North America.

Thus, the Ecumenical Patriarch has become actually “ecumenical” [universal] in the breadth of the territory which is theoretically subject to him. Almost the whole earthly globe, apart from the small territories of the three Patriarchates and the territory of Soviet Russia, according to the idea of the Patriarchate’s leaders, enters into the composition of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Increasing without limit their desires to submit to themselves parts of Russia, the Patriarchs of Constantinople have even begun to declare the uncanonicity of the annexation of Kiev to the Moscow Patriarchate, and to declare that the previously existing southern Russian Metropolia of Kiev should be subject to the Throne of Constantinople. Such a point of view is not only clearly expressed in the Tomos of November 13, 1924, in connection with the separation of the Polish Church, but is also quite thoroughly promoted by the Patriarchs. Thus, the Vicar of Metropolitan Eulogius in Paris, who was consecrated with the permission of the Ecumenical Patriarch, has assumed the title of Chersonese; that is to say, Chersonese, which is now in the territory of Russia, is subject to the Ecumenical Patriarch. The next logical step for the Ecumenical Patriarchate would be to declare the whole of Russia as being under the jurisdiction of Constantinople.

However, the actual spiritual might and even the actual boundaries of authority by far do not correspond to such a self-aggrandizement of Constantinople. Not to mention the fact that almost everywhere the authority of the Patriarch is quite illusory and consists for the most part in the confirmation of bishops who have been elected to various places or the sending of such from Constantinople, many lands which Constantinople considers subject to itself do not have any flock at all under its jurisdiction.

The Decline of Moral Authority
The moral authority of the Patriarchs of Constantinople has likewise fallen very low in view of their extreme instability in ecclesiastical matters. Thus, Patriarch Meletius IV arranged a “Pan-Orthodox Congress,” with representatives of various churches, which decreed the introduction of the New Calendar. This decree, recognized only by a part of the Church, introduced a frightful schism among Orthodox Christians. Patriarch Gregory VII recognized the decree of the council of the Living Church concerning the deposing of Patriarch [St Tikhon.], whom not long before this the Synod of Constantinople had declared a “confessor,” and then he entered into communion with the “Renovationists” in Russia, which continues up to now.

In sum, the Ecumenical Patriarchate, in theory embracing almost the whole universe and in fact extending its authority only over several dioceses, and in other places having only a higher superficial supervision and receiving certain revenues for this, persecuted by the government at home and not supported by any governmental authority abroad: having lost its significance as a pillar of truth and having itself become a source of division, and at the same time being possessed by an exorbitant love of power—represents a pitiful spectacle which recalls the worst periods in the history of the See of Constantinople.
http://www.aoiusa.org/2009/09/the-decline-of-the-patriarchate-of-constantinople/

On other canonical oddities of Constantinople at the time:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22981.0.html

Somewhere we have further indictment that while the Phanar claimed to give Poland autocephaly, it refused to recognize Albania's, allegedly because Albania's Orthodox did not constitute the majroity of the citizenry.


Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2010, 09:01:36 PM »

Ukraine WILL have her own autocephalous Orthodox Church.

It WILL happen, sooner or later, no matter what Moscow wants and no matter how much Moskvophile Ukrainophobic propaganda is pouring out into the world, deceiving people, and no matter how much paid and unpaid agents of the Kremlin help it spread.

ALL autocephalies have always stuggled for their autocephaly, and many got lambasted with spiteful names like "schismatics," "immature," "putting their nationalism in front of their religion," etc. That is a regular thing, because high-positioned prelates fight for their "turf." (Plus, in the case of Ukraine, it's also a crumbling Eurasian Empire trying to strangle its ideologic rival, a young European-, Western-leaning national state.) But that tends to pass.

Ukraine is no exception. Again, Ukraine WILL have her own autocephalous Orthodox Church. Right now, we all have two choices: support what will most certainly happen, or immerse ourselves in lies, prejudices, and demagoguery.
LOL. you manage to choose both.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2010, 09:04:37 PM »


You can call him Vladimir, Volodya, Wally, I really don't care.
There is also a statue of this man, whom I call Prince Volodymyr, standing in Ukraine, by the Dnipro River, where all those people were actually baptized.

What's your point?

In 988 Prince Volodymyr had all of what was then known as Rus baptized into the Orthodox Faith.  This occurred in the lands where Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine, is situated today.  Orthodoxy was brought to Ukraine from Constantinople (not Moscow).  Moscow had yet to be established.


In this, Moscow and its establishment is irrelevant.  Though you call him Volodymyr, and hence Ukrainian, the Russians call him Vladimir, and claim him as Russian.

Btw, St. Volodymyr/Vladimir was baptized in Kerson, in Ukraine since 1954 curtesy of Stalin in the 300 year commemoration of the Treaty of Pereyaslav, where the Cossaks swore fealty to the Czar of All the Russias. A gift to Ukraine extorted by the Soviets from Russia.

Yes. And Charlemaigne's capital was in Aachen, present day Germany. And the whole "world" "knows" that he was a Frankish (=French) king. So, the ambassador of France should come to Germany and say, "Look, guys, why are you so stubborn. You do not exist. Your so-called "nation" is just a part of the Great France. Your spiritual center is in Paris. Your so-called "German" language is just a dialect of French. And please do not argue. In your churches, you will pray for our French saints. In fact, your so-called "German" saints never existed. Or if they did, who cares. On January 33rd, you will be celebrating the Day of all Saints Who Shone in the Land of the French." And please, keep your so-called "German language" to yourselves. It's an abomination to God if you use it in Church."

Actually, I think the Germans and the French had this discussion on at least three occasions.  I don't think the French got very far.  In fact, they say the Champs-Élysées is lined with trees because the Germans like marching in the shade.  Given the number of times that the piece of land called Ukraine has been governed by someone else (including Germans), comparing Ukraine with Germany is not a good comparison.  Has Ukraine historically ever thrown off an invader without Russian assistance?  Without Russia, there would be no Ukraine.  It would just be either the eastern most province of Poland or the northern most province of Turkey.  Being a southern province of Russia is what made Ukraine what it is today. 

Also, all civilized people know that God only hears prayers in German, and we should ignore all historians and other people who are on someone's payroll (take your pick) that say otherwise.  Yes, we will ignore all of the World's historians for at least the last several hundred years and have a mathematician tell us how the history REALLY was.  Now I just have to find a Nationalist German mathematician who was not hung at Nuremberg.

I appreciate the sarcasm, but somehow if one publicly says that French are actually German and their spiritual center is in Aachen, you and all others will most certainly say that the person is a lunatic. However, when Patr. +KIRILL comes to Kyiv and says that Ukrainians are actually Russian and their spiritual center is in Moscow, you do not say that.

For one thing, many in Ukraine agree with him.

Quote
Instead, let's pull out gazillion "arguments" and images, the way Isa does it, and keep "proving" that black is actually white, that war is peace, that the moon is made of green cheese and that we just should all remain Orthodox.  Kiss
It's not my fault that you have no facts to present.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,849



WWW
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2010, 09:59:15 PM »


With all due respect Ialmisry, why are you so anti-Ukrainian?
Don't say you aren't because you are.  You always so eager to put all things Ukrainian down.

..it's not just your "facts" but, the way you present them.

You attitude always seems a bit arrogant and demeaning.

I find that curious, because you propone to be such a devout Orthodox, as I am sure you are having read many of your previous posts.

However, when it comes to things Ukrainian, or anything the least bit threatening or negative towards Russia, you get so defensive and abusive.

I'm just curious why? 

As the Russophile you claim to be, why do you belong to the Church of Antioch, not MP?

I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from, so I can better relate to your position.

Thanks.




Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2010, 02:45:52 AM »

Ukraine WILL have her own autocephalous Orthodox Church.

It WILL happen, sooner or later, no matter what Moscow wants and no matter how much Moskvophile Ukrainophobic propaganda is pouring out into the world, deceiving people, and no matter how much paid and unpaid agents of the Kremlin help it spread.

ALL autocephalies have always stuggled for their autocephaly, and many got lambasted with spiteful names like "schismatics," "immature," "putting their nationalism in front of their religion," etc. That is a regular thing, because high-positioned prelates fight for their "turf." (Plus, in the case of Ukraine, it's also a crumbling Eurasian Empire trying to strangle its ideologic rival, a young European-, Western-leaning national state.) But that tends to pass.

Ukraine is no exception. Again, Ukraine WILL have her own autocephalous Orthodox Church. Right now, we all have two choices: support what will most certainly happen, or immerse ourselves in lies, prejudices, and demagoguery.
LOL. you manage to choose both.

No. It is not a lie that Ukrainians aren't Russians. It is not a lie that Ukraine is a nation that has been separate from the nation formed by Ugro-Finnish tribes under the reign of Yuriy Dolgorukiy, and then by the bloody murderer and thief prince Andrey "the Lover of God" and then by a succession of rulers all the way to Sophia-Augusta-Frederica von Anghalt-zu-Zerbst (the purest Rurikid, of course Smiley)). It is not a lie that the Kyiv Orthodox Metropoly was considered a "mother church" to Eastern Slavic peoples until Nikita Alekseev bought the "mothership" for the Moscow Patriarchy in 1686 for 300 sobol skins. It is not a lie that St. Petersburg stands on bones of tens of thousands Ukrainian Cossacks who were treacherously disarmed, enslaved, and worked to death. It is not a lie that in 1709, a holy man named Ivan Mazepa desperately tried to save his Motherland, Ukraine, from the Antichrist who liquidated Patriarchy altogether and instituted the position of the "Ober-Procuror of the Most Holy Synod," i.e. officially subjugated the entire clergy of his lands to himself (a drunkard and a blasphemer who presided over the "All-Drunk Archpriestly Councils," gorging himself on booze and engaging in the vilest, most pervert orgies being dressed as a Bishop of the Church) through his satraps. It is not a lie that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church survived through all the years of Antichrist's domination, and through the years of all the little antichrists that followed, being free from Sergianism and inspiring the Ukrainian people to be what they really are.

Lies and demagoguery is what YOU are so deeply immersed in, Isa. You use the sources of "truth" that have been tampered with for centuries - by the Antichrist and his henchmen, by the German whore and her brownnosers, by the bald syphyltic whose mummy still lies in the "Mausoleum" on the Red Square," by the "Kremlin Mountaneer" who killed millions of my extended family members by slow and painful death of starvation. People like you are doing the devil's work.
Logged

Love never fails.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2010, 05:00:01 AM »

cossack 316: Can you give sources for the extracks in replies #26 and #28? You have three days.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 05:00:22 AM by mike » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2010, 02:03:18 PM »

Speaking of Ukrainian Orthodoxy, it is impossible to omit one great historical figure, Het'man Ivan Stepanovych Mazepa, 1639-1709 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mazepa). He was the 9th Het'man (the commander-in-chief of the Cossack army and de facto the elected head of the Ukrainian state) since Ukraine gained her independence in 1648. Unfortunately, the "history" polluted by torrents of "Rurikid"-Anhaldt-Zerbst-etc. propaganda portray him as a treacherous careerist, who at first, allegedly, was "for Russia," but then became a "traitor" and secretly, behind the back of Tzar Peter I, conspired with the Swedish king Charles XII to destroy "Holy Rusia."

In fact, Mazepa was a European. In his youth, he traveled abroad and studied in Polish and German schools. He composed poems in Latin at the age of 12. He was fluent in several live European languages, in adition to his native Ukrainian, Old Church Slavonic, and Latin. And, while being a European and a citizen of the world in his heart, he loved his native country, Rus'-Ukraine, and he was a very devout Orthodox. (Perhaps the latter can be partially explained by the huge influence that his mother, Maryna Mokievs'ka, had on him all his life; she became a nun after her husband died, and Mazepa regularly visited her in her monastery where she continuously explained the Orthodox faith to him and inspired him to grow in faith.) Mazepa contributed an enormous amount of his personal money (probably hundreds of millions of dollars, modern equivalent) for construction and reconstruction of churches, monasteries, and Orthodox seminaries throughout the left bank of the Dnipro river (the right bank was, back then, a Polish territory). He also supervised and financed a complete reconstruction and expansion of the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy in Kyiv.

Mazepa and a number of his close associates (notably Pylyp Orlyk) secretly began to seek a military alliance with Sweden in ~1707-8, because they were outraged by the fact that what meant to be an "alliance" with Moscow by Ukrainians in 1654 turned into brutal, cruel oppression of the Ukrainian people by the Eurasian despoty of the insane epileptic who proclaimed himself "emperor" of a new state that he called "Rossiya" ("Russia"). Becuse Mazepa was a commander of a significant military force, Peter the "Great" wanted to keep him tamed, and showered him with signs of "respect" (for example, Mazepa was the first Cavalier of the Order of St. Andrew The First-Called). In return, Peter demanded that Mazepa allowed him to use Ukrainian Cossacs, who were under Mazepa's command, for construction work in Kyiv (the Pechers'k fortress) and then in the mouth of the Neva river where the insane "emperor" began to build his new capital, St. Petersburg. It eventually dawned on Mazepa that the Cossacs used in these construction projects were enslaved and worked literally to death: St. Petersburg for Ukrainians was not any better than Auschwitz in the 1940-s for Jews. So, Mazepa and his close friends recalled that a long time ago, in 1657, Het'man Bohdan Khmel'nyts'kyj had written a letter to the Swedish king, cursing the ill-fated decision to become allies with Moscow in 1954 and asking the Swedish souvereign to consider Ukraine as an ally in the war against Moscow. Mazepa and Orlyk wrote a similar letter and got a positive response.

In fall 1708, when the Swedish army was marching through the Het'man's lands (Swedes were at that time at war with Peter), Mazepa openly declared that he was joining them with an army of 3,000 loyal Cossacs under the command of Colonel Kost' (or Kistka) Hordienko (real name lord Wiliam Ashbliss, an ethnic Scot who settled in Ukraine and became a popular Cossack field commander). Peter was outraged and ordered the Cossack capital, Baturyn, to be demolished and burned to the ground. The entire garrson and thousands of innocent civilians in Baturyn, including women and children, were killed (chopped into pieces, burned alive, drowned, hanged, strangled or beaten to death). Roman Ivanychuk, a Ukrainian author, wrote a very gruesome account of this massacre of Ukrainians in his novel, titled, "The Horde," written in the 1970-s - 1980-s.

In June 1709,  the Swedish army and the Cossacks under Kistka Hordienko's command met with the Muscovite army, which outnumbered the joint Swedish-Cossack force about 10:1. The battle was blooy, and victorious for the Horde.

We lost then, but we never forgot our holy Knight, and we took up arms again in 1917-1920, and in the 1940-s, and we finally won our independence from the Horde in 1991.

Now, many people in Ukraine who are Orthodox want Ivan Mazepa to be canonized. Of course, there is a frenzied resistance to this idea from the Horde and its hierarchs.

One more reason for us - patriotic Ukrainians - to want our own autonomous Orthodox jurisdiction...
Logged

Love never fails.
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2010, 10:35:53 PM »

Later, after the defeat of the Ukrainian Cossack army on the Poltava field in 1709, the Ukrainian Orthodoxy came to its long and dark night. Occasionally, wonderful personalities emerged on the dark skyline of the Horde domination; St. John of Tobol'sk (Ivan Maxymovych), St. Paisius Velychkovs'kyj, and many others still shone. But the world ouside of the robbed, humiliated, subjugated, raped Ukraine knew very little about her and grew to know less and less. "Parvenue" European expatriants like Sophia-Frederica-Augusta von Anhaldt-zu-Zerbst, who, by sheer chance and by plots of Western sovereigns like the Prussian King Frederick the Great, became the Empress of Holy "Russia" from Koenigsberg to Chukotka, and who were well-versed in European languages, contributed a lot to convince the "world," terribly ignorant about what was going in to the east of the Dvina river, that the "Russia" they reigned was the heir to ancient Slavic chronicles, and that these "Cossaques" were but a bunch of rebels who ought to be brought to order and loyalty to the Empire. In 1775, Sophia-F.-A.-vA.-zZ's army, recruited by mandatory orders from Koenigsberg to Chukotka, which overpowered the voluntary assembled Cossacks 10:1, seized and demolished the Sich, the capital and the main fortress of the Ukrainian heroes-knights who tried all they could, to their last breath, to protect their Orthodox faith and their roots from the empire of spiritual midgets, libertines, and whores.

We eventually won in 1991. 

Logged

Love never fails.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2010, 08:25:52 AM »

Since racial/racist "arguments" play such a role in the views of some on this this topic, I thought this might give some context:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Genetic_relations_of_European_nations.jpg
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2010, 10:19:55 AM »

Since racial/racist "arguments" play such a role in the views of some on this this topic

Only in your imagination.
Logged

Love never fails.
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2010, 10:51:16 AM »

"And these earthly countries and families are the playthings of this our temporary life and scene. For our country is whatever each may have first occupied, either as tyrant, or in misfortune; and in this we are all alike strangers and pilgrims, however much we may play with names." - St. Gregory the Theologian
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2010, 11:05:17 AM »

Since racial/racist "arguments" play such a role in the views of some on this this topic

Only in your imagination.
I'd quote how often you bring up Russians being "Ugro-Finns" and 'ergo' having nothing to do with the Rus' (who came across the Gulf of Finland), but I don't have the time, and you do it frequent enough that even the casual reader with see it.

You pride yourself on having to accept science.  Genetics is a science.
Quote
It was found that Rurik was of the Finno-Ugrian descent (haplogroup N1c1, earlier known as N3a, probably beginning with the following markers : 14 23 14 11 11 13 11 12 10 14 14 30 18 9 9). However, from some historical sources it comes out that he was born in Sweden on the Roslagen seashore (north of Stockholm).
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=results

The homeland of the Rus' and Rurik is in red
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2010, 07:00:49 PM »

I'd quote how often you bring up Russians being "Ugro-Finns"

In 988, of course. But since then, the population of "Rossiya" has received a lot of Rus' (=Ukrainian and Belarussian) genes.

Please stop obfuscating the topic. You really look professional, you know. Don't blow your cover. Smiley
Logged

Love never fails.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2010, 09:57:58 PM »

I'd quote how often you bring up Russians being "Ugro-Finns"

In 988, of course. But since then, the population of "Rossiya" has received a lot of Rus'

like all the Rurikids. Including SS Volodymyr, Boris and Hlib and Yaraslav the Wise.

Quote
(=/=Ukrainian and Belarussian) genes.

Fixed that for you. No Ukrainains nor Belarussians (nor Russians for that matter) to have genes in 988. Just Norsified Ugro-Finn Rus' being Slavicized by their Slavic subjects.

Since you brought them up, I've noticed that Ukrainians who predicate their identify on {trying) destroying the Russians' having hit upon trying to recruit the Belorussians to their cause.  So far all Belorussians I know or have heard of want no part in it.  The only thing ever approaching it was a pamphlet put out by the Belarus in Chicago in submission to the Vatican at the celebration of the Millenium Baptism of Rus': it disowned any connection to St. Volodymyr/Vladimir (I could put in Uladzimi/er, but I don't know if it is appropriate in this context).

As for 988




Oh dear. Is that the Vyatichi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyatich
I see, those West Slavs turned East Slavs to populate Vladimir-Suzdal, including the Moscow basin, building those Slavic grads, like Moskva? Not to mention all those Slav Krivichs and Ilmen Slavs (who, like the Vyatichi, were related to West Slavs, in this case the Polabians/Wends, the ancestors of the Sorbs) in what was Rus', here in its heyday, now Russia?

Yes, I know that doesn't fit in the U"O"C-KP world view.

Quote
Please stop obfuscating the topic.

What topic would that be? The KP propaganda tried to impune Moscow's roots in a misdirected attempt to counter its policies. I just responded.

Thus it is not I who has obfuscated.  Language is passed on by the tongue and ear, not the genitals, and Faith comes from preaching, not copulation.  Why the U"O"C-KP feels compeled to malign the Fino-Ugric peoples with some sort of Slavic master race nonssense, and even more ludicrous, believes this is going to help the Ukrianian Orthodox cause...

Quote
You really look professional, you know. Don't blow your cover. Smiley
Yes. Accusing as a Soviet agent everyone not in U"O"C-KP lock step...it's worked so well.  That's why everyone in the Orthodox world is clamoring to ally with Filoret against Moscow.

Btw, is there a policy on refering to canonically deposed bishops by their former or purported titles?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 10:12:54 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2010, 05:02:10 AM »

All of this history is irrelevant. In 1000, our Slavic ancestors were still in tribal phase.
I like how Ialmisry colors history. (sarcasm) In 1600, there was no such thing as ukrainian/polish nationalism.
No in 1600, 1800 AD no one in Belarus and Ukraine felt threathened by the existence of nonbelievers in their neighborhood. In 1850, in the western gubernias of the Russian Empire, which is now called Belarus and central Ukraine, there were 10.300.000 million inhabitants of which 61,7% Orthodox, 28% Roman Catholic,  Jews 6% and Protestants 4%. But then came Bolshevism and Banderism and destroyed our quaint paradise.
The problem in Ukraine today is not about the dregowicze, krywiczanie, and etc but Banderism, UPA-OUN.

The face of the problems in Ukraine, Stepana Bandera.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,205


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2010, 08:10:12 AM »

"And these earthly countries and families are the playthings of this our temporary life and scene. For our country is whatever each may have first occupied, either as tyrant, or in misfortune; and in this we are all alike strangers and pilgrims, however much we may play with names." - St. Gregory the Theologian

Amen. IMHO mixing faith with nationalism/patriotism (not necessarily equivalent to ethnicity) creates a toxic stew that only benefits the enemies of truth.
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,849



WWW
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2010, 09:52:02 AM »

"And these earthly countries and families are the playthings of this our temporary life and scene. For our country is whatever each may have first occupied, either as tyrant, or in misfortune; and in this we are all alike strangers and pilgrims, however much we may play with names." - St. Gregory the Theologian

Amen. IMHO mixing faith with nationalism/patriotism (not necessarily equivalent to ethnicity) creates a toxic stew that only benefits the enemies of truth.

This is perfectly true!  This is at the root of most Church related problems these days...and not just in Ukraine.

However, once again, why is it okay for everyone else to have their "national" Church, except Ukraine?

Why is Iaslamry so against Ukraine?

Why can everyone be a Romanian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc...but, so many are up in arms against Ukrainian Orthodox?

That's what I cannot understand.

I would not attend a non-canonical Church.  Therefore, I would not be found in a KP parish (although I have visited them on occasion). 

However, I await the day that Ukraine has a canonical Church.

Won't all the naysayers be surprised when it comes to pass?  Just like Communism fell without a drop of blood being shed in Ukraine, so, will her Church be restored.

Lord, have mercy and bless my homeland!

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2010, 10:01:00 AM »

"And these earthly countries and families are the playthings of this our temporary life and scene. For our country is whatever each may have first occupied, either as tyrant, or in misfortune; and in this we are all alike strangers and pilgrims, however much we may play with names." - St. Gregory the Theologian

Amen. IMHO mixing faith with nationalism/patriotism (not necessarily equivalent to ethnicity) creates a toxic stew that only benefits the enemies of truth.

This is perfectly true!  This is at the root of most Church related problems these days...and not just in Ukraine.

However, once again, why is it okay for everyone else to have their "national" Church, except Ukraine?

Why is Iaslamry so against Ukraine?

Why can everyone be a Romanian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc...but, so many are up in arms against Ukrainian Orthodox?

That's what I cannot understand.

I would not attend a non-canonical Church.  Therefore, I would not be found in a KP parish (although I have visited them on occasion).  

However, I await the day that Ukraine has a canonical autocephalous (my addition - mike) Church.

Won't all the naysayers be surprised when it comes to pass?  Just like Communism fell without a drop of blood being shed in Ukraine, so, will her Church be restored.

Lord, have mercy and bless my homeland!



LizaSymonenko, don't you understand that everyone here except from Heorhij, cossack 316 and stashko agrees with you (especially with the parts I've bolded)?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 10:02:11 AM by mike » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,849



WWW
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2010, 10:36:12 AM »


Smiley

Thanks for making that clear to me, Mike.

I guess all the rhetoric spewed against Ukraine, and that Ukrainians are really Russians over and over, had clouded my vision.

Honestly.

I am relieved that the majority are with me in praying for a canonical autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church!

I love you all! 

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #51 on: September 06, 2010, 11:02:34 AM »


Smiley

Thanks for making that clear to me, Mike.

I guess all the rhetoric spewed against Ukraine, and that Ukrainians are really Russians over and over, had clouded my vision.

Honestly.

I am relieved that the majority are with me in praying for a canonical autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church!

I love you all! 


Since you understand it clearly or he clarified it for you,Can You Please explain it to me what mike posted ..He Mentioned me and a few other , i didn't understand ,what he ment by it..., Huh
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2010, 11:49:09 AM »

All of this history is irrelevant. In 1000, our Slavic ancestors were still in tribal phase.
I like how Ialmisry colors history. (sarcasm) In 1600, there was no such thing as ukrainian/polish nationalism.
No in 1600, 1800 AD no one in Belarus and Ukraine felt threathened by the existence of nonbelievers in their neighborhood. In 1850, in the western gubernias of the Russian Empire, which is now called Belarus and central Ukraine, there were 10.300.000 million inhabitants of which 61,7% Orthodox, 28% Roman Catholic,  Jews 6% and Protestants 4%. But then came Bolshevism and Banderism and destroyed our quaint paradise.
The problem in Ukraine today is not about the dregowicze, krywiczanie, and etc but Banderism, UPA-OUN.

The face of the problems in Ukraine, Stepana Bandera.

Beg to differ. OUN stands for "Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists," a political party active in the 1920-s - 1940-s, acting mostly on those Ukrainian lands that were ceded to Poland in 1921 (the "Curzon Treaty"). OUN's political platform was based on the idea that the survival and the prosperity of the independent, sovereign, free Ukrainian state is one most noble and important goal of life of a Ukrainian person. Stepan Bandera was one of the leaders of OUN (other notable leaders were Andriy Mel'nyk and Yaroslaw Stets'ko). Bandera and Mel'nyk were arrested by Nazis in 1941 and spent the rest of the WWII in Nazi concentration camps. Bandera was later assassinated by a Soviet agent in West Germany.

UPA stands for "Ukrayins'ka Povstans'ka Armiya" (Ukrainian Insurgent Army), the OUN's military wing organized in 1942 in Ukrainian lands then occupied by the German army. Its goal was to fight the German occupiers by destroying their infrastructure, communications etc., and by dealing swift blows to the occupiers' police and anti-guerilla forces. UPA fought under a red and black flag and a slogan, "Za Volyu i Krashche Zhyttya" ("For Freedom and Better Life"). In 1944, UPA counted over 100,000 men and women, being one of the biggest (if not the biggest) anti-Hitler guerilla armies in the world. Roman Shukhevych was UPA Comander-in-Chief till 1950.

Neither OUN nor UPA were "criminal," as some try to prove today. In 1943-4, when the German army began its retreat from Ukraine and when the lands formerly occupied by Germany became the prey of Stalin's genocidal regime, UPA heroically fought against Stalin's special secret police, NKVD. That fight continued well in to the 1950-s (which would be, of course, impossible if the undergound fighters did not receive a colossal help of the local Ukrainian population). Shukhevych was ambushed and killed in 1950, and then Vasyl' Kuk became the Commander-In-Chief, till approximately 1955-56 when the last UPA fighter groups were destroyed by the overwhelming force of the NKVD and the Soviet Army.

Unfortunately, some local criminal elements robbed and killed people under the guise of "UPA," and special Strybky troops were organized and trained by the NKVD to impersonate UPA fighters, hence the horrible libel that UPA were killers of innocent Jews and/or Poles. Just one "wonderful" example of how skilful the Soviets were in libeling UPA and how easily people bought their lies. In 1944 or 45, Polish sources published a photograph showing dead chidren hanging from a tree. The "explanation" under that photograph was that the UPA fighters were hanging Polish children on trees and calling these trees "an alley to Ukrainian Independence." Later, in the 1960-s, POLISH doctors-psychiatrists showed that this photograph was actually taken from a psychiatric journal published in the 1920-s, and the dead children on the photograph were not Polish, actually victims of paranoid schizophreniac.

Like one old Canadian Ukrainian friend of mine said, "if one could line up all forgeries done by the NKVD/KGB about OUN and UPA, the line would definitely go all the way to the Moon, or maybe even to Mars."
Logged

Love never fails.
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,253



« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2010, 11:53:47 AM »

LS -However, once again, why is it okay for everyone else to have their "national" Church, except Ukraine?

I don’t think that they do.  Even though I am a citizen of the United States, I vehemently oppose the creation of an “American Orthodox Church”, and even have little use for the OCA.

LS-Why is Iaslamry so against Ukraine?

He is not, and nothing that he has written can be taken as such by a reasonable person.

LS-Why can everyone be a Romanian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc...but, so many are up in arms against Ukrainian Orthodox?

Again, we are not against a Ukrainian Orthodox Church.  Some, like me, actually support the idea and hope that it happens soon.  What do not like is schism and having deposed clergy make up their own church, regardless of how many supposedly agree with them.

LS-I would not attend a non-canonical Church.  Therefore, I would not be found in a KP parish (although I have visited them on occasion).

That is because you are a true daughter of the Orthodox Church.

LS-However, I await the day that Ukraine has a canonical Church.

Me too!  With emphasis on “canonical”.

LS-Won't all the naysayers be surprised when it comes to pass?  Just like Communism fell without a drop of blood being shed in Ukraine, so, will her Church be restored.

There will be no surprise for me.  I do disagree that “her Church will be restored” because it already exists.  All those who are in communion with the Church are the Body of Christ regardless of what national moniker they want to put in front.  What I do believe will happen is that the Ukrainian people will get to govern their own affairs while still remaining in communion with the rest of the Orthodox world.

LS-Lord, have mercy and bless my homeland!

Amen!
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2010, 12:41:33 PM »

All of this history is irrelevant. In 1000, our Slavic ancestors were still in tribal phase.

No.  By that time (1000) the Slavs had plenty of grads

developed into cities, polities centered on them (the Norse called Kievan Rus' "the Realm of Cities" Gardariki), and states.  The Slavs had already slavicized the First Bulgarian Empire and its Czars. Kievan Rus' already had developed appanage principaliities with a center at Kiev. Mieszko I and Boleslaw I had formed the Polish State, following the establishment of the Kingdom of Bohemia, itself following the uniting of Slavic tribes into Greater Moravia in the 9th century, itself following the tribal confederation of the Frank Samo (623-658). A sign of this is the adoption of the Germanic term for king, *kuningaz, which became kǔningǔ amongst the Slavs.

Quote
I like how Ialmisry colors history. (sarcasm) In 1600, there was no such thing as ukrainian/polish nationalism.

By 1600 Polish nationalism was developed, along with Polonization, epitomized by the Union of Lubin (1569), secular precursor (at least for the Ruthenians) of the infamous "Union" of Brest (1595-6). 1697, when Polish replaced Ruthenian as the official language of Lithuania, marks a cut off. But that was just another nail in the coffin of a Ukrainian-Ruthenian-Polish common nationalism, a coffin brought out by St. Peter Movila's failure (though through no lack of trying) to form an Orthodox identity in the Polish Crown Lands-which contributed to the success of a seperate Ukrainian indentity-and the failure of the Treay of Hadiach to unite the szlachta and Cossaks-which led to both the seperate Ukrainian identity and the union with Russia.

Quote
No in 1600, 1800 AD no one in Belarus and Ukraine felt threathened by the existence of nonbelievers in their neighborhood.

The Treaties of Hadiach and Pereyaslav show otherwise: Hadiach voided the "Union" of Brest, Pereyaslav united the Cossaks to the Orthodox Czar against the Vatican's agent, the King of Poland.

Quote
In 1850, in the western gubernias of the Russian Empire, which is now called Belarus

It is called Belarus because it is Belarus.



Quote
and central Ukraine,

That is because it is in the center of Ukraine.


Quote
there were 10.300.000 million inhabitants of which 61,7% Orthodox, 28% Roman Catholic,  Jews 6% and Protestants 4%.

In 1897 the Czar ruled 11,467,994 adherents to the Vatican and 7,931,307 speakers of Polish (the number, it is claimed, is underrepresented) and  1,210,510 speakers of Lithuanian. I'm not sure Orthodox Poles existed at the time (someone correct me if I am wrong, but with specific facts please), and the Lithanian ones had been mostly obliterated by the Poles during the Commonwealth. Since they were mostly in what of present day Poland in Lithania was under the Czar, and the number of Belorussians (mostly in Belorussia) was 5,885,547, that doesn't leave enough for over 3 million in subjegation to the Vatican in Belorus and Central Ukraine.  Were are you getting your "figures"?

Quote
But then came Bolshevism and Banderism and destroyed our quaint paradise.

The Czar destroyed that Polonizers paradise: when, for instance, the Latin Poles pushed the "beatification" of Josaphat, the Ruthenians refused to pay for it, maintained a silence over the event in Rome, and increasingly turned to the Czar. The Romanians and Serbs did their part in Bukowina and Karlovcsi giving what cover it could to the return to Orthodoxy of the East Slavs, as the Poles were building their Union of Lublin Mound to dominate Lviv.

Quote
The problem in Ukraine today is not about the dregowicze, krywiczanie, and etc but Banderism, UPA-OUN.

The face of the problems in Ukraine, Stepana Bandera.
No, there is another rogue gallery:

The last belongs here mostly for making the first two possible.  A disloyal son of Lithuania, he epitomizes why the Lithuanians are no fonder of the memory of the Commonwealth than the Ukrainians.
Some would like to add

but he solved Ukraine's Polish problems for Kiev. And left a monument to Polish arrogance

in place of a monument of Polish Orthodoxy

Dziekuja Dmowki, Grabski and Pilsudski.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2010, 01:02:49 PM »



Beg to differ. OUN stands for "Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists," a political party active in the 1920-s - 1940-s, acting mostly on those Ukrainian lands that were ceded to Poland in 1921 (the "Curzon Treaty"). OUN's political platform was based on the idea that the survival and the prosperity of the independent, sovereign, free Ukrainian state is one most noble and important goal of life of a Ukrainian person. Stepan Bandera was one of the leaders of OUN (other notable leaders were Andriy Mel'nyk and Yaroslaw Stets'ko). Bandera and Mel'nyk were arrested by Nazis in 1941 and spent the rest of the WWII in Nazi concentration camps. Bandera was later assassinated by a Soviet agent in West Germany.

UPA stands for "Ukrayins'ka Povstans'ka Armiya" (Ukrainian Insurgent Army), the OUN's military wing organized in 1942 in Ukrainian lands then occupied by the German army. Its goal was to fight the German occupiers by destroying their infrastructure, communications etc., and by dealing swift blows to the occupiers' police and anti-guerilla forces. UPA fought under a red and black flag and a slogan, "Za Volyu i Krashche Zhyttya" ("For Freedom and Better Life"). In 1944, UPA counted over 100,000 men and women, being one of the biggest (if not the biggest) anti-Hitler guerilla armies in the world. Roman Shukhevych was UPA Comander-in-Chief till 1950.

Neither OUN nor UPA were "criminal," as some try to prove today. In 1943-4, when the German army began its retreat from Ukraine and when the lands formerly occupied by Germany became the prey of Stalin's genocidal regime, UPA heroically fought against Stalin's special secret police, NKVD. That fight continued well in to the 1950-s (which would be, of course, impossible if the undergound fighters did not receive a colossal help of the local Ukrainian population). Shukhevych was ambushed and killed in 1950, and then Vasyl' Kuk became the Commander-In-Chief, till approximately 1955-56 when the last UPA fighter groups were destroyed by the overwhelming force of the NKVD and the Soviet Army.

Unfortunately, some local criminal elements robbed and killed people under the guise of "UPA," and special Strybky troops were organized and trained by the NKVD to impersonate UPA fighters, hence the horrible libel that UPA were killers of innocent Jews and/or Poles. Just one "wonderful" example of how skilful the Soviets were in libeling UPA and how easily people bought their lies. In 1944 or 45, Polish sources published a photograph showing dead chidren hanging from a tree.
Like one old Canadian Ukrainian friend of mine said, "if one could line up all forgeries done by the NKVD/KGB about OUN and UPA, the line would definitely go all the way to the Moon, or maybe even to Mars."
The people who survived the raids of UPA also beg to differ. I acknowledge the fact that I would like my Polish historic viewpoint to agree with yours, that I want peace between us Slavic Christian brothers but it remains true that UPA caused a severe schism and rupture between Poles and Ukrainians.

The only proof I have are the devastated churches, cemeteries and forced exodus of Poles from territories they had lived for hundreds of years. All that is left are tears.
My neighbour from across the road was forced to run away from ukrainian nationalists in 1943. We call her pani Stasia. She was then a child, living in her familial village on Podole. She grew up in a traditional religious peasant family. One summer day, her father had information that the UPA was near. He then walked to the parish church to see if the local community was organising resistance. He never came back because along the way the UPA murdered him. Then pani Stasia's mother with 5 of her children were forced to migrate from the place where she was born into the great unknown. They did not know where they going, they didn't have any guide but somehow they survived. Pani Stasia says that the Mother of God lead her family to safety and that their constant prayers saved them from wysyłka to Siberia or death from the reżuńs of UPA. Pani Stasia can barely walk now, she has buried her husband and very few know about her secret. Perhaps it is fate that I, a 22 year old, learned of this. In Poland, we say  that if we forget those who died in the Ukraine or were sent to the lagiers in Siberia, then may God forget about us.

Logged
synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2010, 01:39:13 PM »

ialmasry:
First, you put Stalin and Piłsudski,Grabski and Dmowski in one bag.... You are paranoid if you think that there is a connexion between Stalin and those three.
Please, you put Piłsudski and Dmowski into the same bag? Are you insane? They represent two different Polish worldviews. Roman Dmowski wanted Poland's border to be on the Curzon line. Dmowski's endencja movement was very pro-Russian. He wanted all the Polish lands united within the Russian Empire. On the other hand, Piłsudski wanted Poland to become the leader of the Intermarium between the Germanies and Russia. His method of gaining this was the confederation of Central European states. From its beginnings, Piłsudski wanted Ukrainian and Belarussian states but the Soviets destroyed the grassroots movements in Kyiv and Mińsk.
 Conservatives in Poland are divided into adherents of Dmowski and proponents of Piłsudski. The two groups "excommunicate" each other and call the other side "heretics".   

Nationalism is a 19th century invention. Ialmasry, your historiographical data is accurate but you seem to not have ever studied the history of ideas, of political ideologies.

I think ialmasry was once a Marxist. He sees a battle of classes of people emerging where they do not exist. 

PS. What does the economist Stanisław GRABSKI have to do with this affair? What does the fact that he redenominated the hyperinflating Polish currency have to do with Orthodoxy and Ukraine?
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2010, 02:47:27 PM »

My neighbour from across the road was forced to run away from ukrainian nationalists in 1943. We call her pani Stasia. She was then a child, living in her familial village on Podole. She grew up in a traditional religious peasant family. One summer day, her father had information that the UPA was near. He then walked to the parish church to see if the local community was organising resistance. He never came back because along the way the UPA murdered him. Then pani Stasia's mother with 5 of her children were forced to migrate from the place where she was born into the great unknown. They did not know where they going, they didn't have any guide but somehow they survived. Pani Stasia says that the Mother of God lead her family to safety and that their constant prayers saved them from wysyłka to Siberia or death from the reżuńs of UPA. Pani Stasia can barely walk now, she has buried her husband and very few know about her secret. Perhaps it is fate that I, a 22 year old, learned of this. In Poland, we say  that if we forget those who died in the Ukraine or were sent to the lagiers in Siberia, then may God forget about us.

Dear synLeszka,

First of all, I am terribly sorry to hear about the atrocities you described.

I heard stories like yours, but I absolutely refuse to believe that people who did this were UPA fighters. Most likely, they were Strybky (members of special killer squads trained by Stalin's NKVD and impersonating UPA). The thing is, UPA was an *ARMY* with a typical wartime army's iron discipline. Any person who would make an attempt on a civilian's life was to be court-marchalled. It usually meant swift trial and execution by a firing squad.

UPA, indeed, had skirmishes with the Polish guerilla army, AK (Armia Krajowa). But never, never did a UPA fighter or a "bojivka" deliberately kill civilians, be they Polish or Jewish or Russian.

BTW, some people who fought in UPA "bojivky" (fighting groups) were ethnic Jews. Many were Orthodox Ukrainians (the Canadian friend of mine whom I mentioned in my previous post is Orthodox and he fought in a UPA "bojivka" side-by-side with Ukrainian Eastern Rite Catholics against our common enemy, Stalin's genocidal regime).

I have friends in Kyiv who personally knew Vasyl' Kuk, the last UPA Commander-In-Chief (he survived the Gulag and died of natural causes in 2007). I have a book by him, where he descibes in all detail how UPA really operated and how Stalin's henchmen organized the libel of truly global proportions to discredit them.

I also read memoirs of children of UPA fighters, with hundreds of pages of authentic documents attached.

No. Whoever massacred innocent civilians were NOT UPA.
Logged

Love never fails.
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2010, 02:47:28 PM »

"And these earthly countries and families are the playthings of this our temporary life and scene. For our country is whatever each may have first occupied, either as tyrant, or in misfortune; and in this we are all alike strangers and pilgrims, however much we may play with names." - St. Gregory the Theologian

Amen. IMHO mixing faith with nationalism/patriotism (not necessarily equivalent to ethnicity) creates a toxic stew that only benefits the enemies of truth.

This is perfectly true!  This is at the root of most Church related problems these days...and not just in Ukraine.

However, once again, why is it okay for everyone else to have their "national" Church, except Ukraine?

Why is Iaslamry so against Ukraine?

Why can everyone be a Romanian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc...but, so many are up in arms against Ukrainian Orthodox?

That's what I cannot understand.

I would not attend a non-canonical Church.  Therefore, I would not be found in a KP parish (although I have visited them on occasion).  

However, I await the day that Ukraine has a canonical autocephalous (my addition - mike) Church.

Won't all the naysayers be surprised when it comes to pass?  Just like Communism fell without a drop of blood being shed in Ukraine, so, will her Church be restored.

Lord, have mercy and bless my homeland!



LizaSymonenko, don't you understand that everyone here except from Heorhij, cossack 316 and stashko agrees with you (especially with the parts I've bolded)?

I agree with pani Liza.
Logged

Love never fails.
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2010, 02:47:29 PM »

For those who read Ukrainian, a great testimony of an UPA fighter here: http://www2.maidan.org.ua/n/free/1283708930

I might translate a bit later, if folks are interested.
Logged

Love never fails.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2010, 02:53:37 PM »



Beg to differ. OUN stands for "Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists," a political party active in the 1920-s - 1940-s, acting mostly on those Ukrainian lands that were ceded to Poland in 1921 (the "Curzon Treaty"). OUN's political platform was based on the idea that the survival and the prosperity of the independent, sovereign, free Ukrainian state is one most noble and important goal of life of a Ukrainian person. Stepan Bandera was one of the leaders of OUN (other notable leaders were Andriy Mel'nyk and Yaroslaw Stets'ko). Bandera and Mel'nyk were arrested by Nazis in 1941 and spent the rest of the WWII in Nazi concentration camps. Bandera was later assassinated by a Soviet agent in West Germany.

UPA stands for "Ukrayins'ka Povstans'ka Armiya" (Ukrainian Insurgent Army), the OUN's military wing organized in 1942 in Ukrainian lands then occupied by the German army. Its goal was to fight the German occupiers by destroying their infrastructure, communications etc., and by dealing swift blows to the occupiers' police and anti-guerilla forces. UPA fought under a red and black flag and a slogan, "Za Volyu i Krashche Zhyttya" ("For Freedom and Better Life"). In 1944, UPA counted over 100,000 men and women, being one of the biggest (if not the biggest) anti-Hitler guerilla armies in the world. Roman Shukhevych was UPA Comander-in-Chief till 1950.

Neither OUN nor UPA were "criminal," as some try to prove today. In 1943-4, when the German army began its retreat from Ukraine and when the lands formerly occupied by Germany became the prey of Stalin's genocidal regime, UPA heroically fought against Stalin's special secret police, NKVD. That fight continued well in to the 1950-s (which would be, of course, impossible if the undergound fighters did not receive a colossal help of the local Ukrainian population). Shukhevych was ambushed and killed in 1950, and then Vasyl' Kuk became the Commander-In-Chief, till approximately 1955-56 when the last UPA fighter groups were destroyed by the overwhelming force of the NKVD and the Soviet Army.

Unfortunately, some local criminal elements robbed and killed people under the guise of "UPA," and special Strybky troops were organized and trained by the NKVD to impersonate UPA fighters, hence the horrible libel that UPA were killers of innocent Jews and/or Poles. Just one "wonderful" example of how skilful the Soviets were in libeling UPA and how easily people bought their lies. In 1944 or 45, Polish sources published a photograph showing dead chidren hanging from a tree.
Like one old Canadian Ukrainian friend of mine said, "if one could line up all forgeries done by the NKVD/KGB about OUN and UPA, the line would definitely go all the way to the Moon, or maybe even to Mars."
The people who survived the raids of UPA also beg to differ. I acknowledge the fact that I would like my Polish historic viewpoint to agree with yours, that I want peace between us Slavic Christian brothers but it remains true that UPA caused a severe schism and rupture between Poles and Ukrainians.
Because the occupiers have been driven out?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Bev%C3%B6lkerungsverteilung_Ostmitteleuropa_um_1918.jpg

The only proof I have are the devastated churches, cemeteries and forced exodus of Poles from territories they had lived for hundreds of years.
So centuries of oppression and persecusion came to nought.

All that is left are tears.

Cry us a river.

My neighbour from across the road was forced to run away from ukrainian nationalists in 1943. We call her pani Stasia. She was then a child, living in her familial village on Podole.
Which Podole?
She grew up in a traditional religious peasant family.

Which was what?
One summer day, her father had information that the UPA was near. He then walked to the parish church to see if the local community was organising resistance. He never came back because along the way the UPA murdered him. Then pani Stasia's mother with 5 of her children were forced to migrate from the place where she was born into the great unknown. They did not know where they going, they didn't have any guide but somehow they survived. Pani Stasia says that the Mother of God lead her family to safety and that their constant prayers saved them from wysyłka to Siberia or death from the reżuńs of UPA. Pani Stasia can barely walk now, she has buried her husband and very few know about her secret. Perhaps it is fate that I, a 22 year old, learned of this. In Poland, we say  that if we forget those who died in the Ukraine or were sent to the lagiers in Siberia, then may God forget about us.
The Ukrainians (some at least) and Belorusssians haven't forgotten what a "joy" the Second Republic was.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 02:56:31 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #61 on: September 06, 2010, 04:12:23 PM »

ialmasry:
First, you put Stalin and Piłsudski,Grabski and Dmowski in one bag.... You are paranoid if you think that there is a connexion between Stalin and those three.
You're right: Stalin made less pretense to humanity.

Please, you put Piłsudski and Dmowski into the same bag? Are you insane? They represent two different Polish worldviews.
Two sides of the same coin.


 Roman Dmowski wanted Poland's border to be on the Curzon line. Dmowski's endencja movement was very pro-Russian. He wanted all the Polish lands united within the Russian Empire. On the other hand, Piłsudski wanted Poland to become the leader of the Intermarium between the Germanies and Russia. His method of gaining this was the confederation of Central European states.
And what was in it for the Ukrainians? In particular his opposition to the Polish Minority Treaty/Little Treaty of Versailles?

 From its beginnings, Piłsudski wanted Ukrainian and Belarussian states but the Soviets destroyed the grassroots movements in Kyiv and Mińsk.
Destroyed? Hardly.

Conservatives in Poland are divided into adherents of Dmowski and proponents of Piłsudski. The two groups "excommunicate" each other and call the other side "heretics".

Yes, the Vatican and  the Calvinists excommunicated each other and called each heretics, but managed to unite to edge out (by the "Union" of Brest) out of the Warsaw Confederation.


Nationalism is a 19th century invention. Ialmasry, your historiographical data is accurate but you seem to not have ever studied the history of ideas, of political ideologies.

Enough to know that nations predate the French Revolution. For instance, a good case study is Iran.

"The Idea of Iran: an essay on its origin." Gheraldo Gnoli
http://books.google.com/books?id=3X8yAAAAIAAJ&q=history+of+the+idea+of+iran&dq=history+of+the+idea+of+iran&hl=en&ei=AUaFTKuqD8i9ngef1OSgAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ

I think ialmasry was once a Marxist.

No, but I was once a capitalist. Btw, Marxist allegedly don't believe in nationalisms.

He sees a battle of classes of people emerging where they do not exist.

Now who's the Marxist? The szlachta may be a class, and the Ukrainians and Ruthenians mostly peasants, but the Ostrogski family, true sons of Prince St. Volodymyr brought to nought the ravings of Marxists: the Ostrogskis defended Orthodoxy and the Rus' tradition, althought they were, besides Rurikids, also Piasts.

PS. What does the economist Stanisław GRABSKI have to do with this affair? What does the fact that he redenominated the hyperinflating Polish currency have to do with Orthodoxy and Ukraine?

He was Minister of Religious Beliefs and Public Education and author of the notorius Lex Grabski
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN030010586X&id=xSpEynLxJ1MC&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=stanislaw+grabski&sig=5kSKOnXipwsTitk7w_hotRTooPQ#v=onepage&q=stanislaw%20grabski&f=false
The reconstruction of nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999 By Timothy Snyder

Edited for tags - mike.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 04:18:12 PM by mike » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2010, 09:53:36 AM »

I do not want to participate in this debate because I have said my two pence and it is enough.
You are paranoid and that's it. You are a demagogue and that's it.
Why does an Arab/American care so much about Slavic history? You know nothing about us. What is the sense of stirring up conflicts where they do not exist. Why does a discussion between Slavs about Slavic history have to have interference by someone who is a complete outsider. Perhaps if you tried humbly to learn something about some peoples you do not know much about I would understand you.

You say that you know what Bialorusins and Ukrainians think about Poland. Have you been in these countries and talked to the people?

Supposedly, you place devout Orthodox against Polish Roman Catholics. There are accounts of Orthodox priests protecting Roman Catholic churches from the Ukrainian peasants, who in the name of Soviet progress wanted to destroy the churches and other monuments. In one case, there was an Orthodox priest who said that if in this village, you take apart the Polish roadside cross, then I will excommunicate all of you. The villagers then decided not to carry out this operation and left the cross intact. Now, why would an Orthodox parish priest protect the last sign of Polish settlement in this area? The roadside cross is considered to be the line of demarcation between Poles and other nations. Rusins and Germans traditionally don't build roadside crosses.
  I think he was not as intelligent as you are, and did not realise that the Poles are faithless, graceless heretics who deserve to be done away with. You alluded to this in your glorification of the "solving of the Polish question in Western Ukraine:" Ad hominem removed  Your comixture of dialectic Soviet historical theory with Orthodox fanaticism are at best a devilish brew.
2-week warning for ad hominem.  Please don't refer to people as "wretched souls."  PM Fr. Chris if you feel this warning is in error.

- Fr. George, Global Moderator
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 11:51:00 AM by Fr. George » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2010, 10:46:09 AM »

I do not want to participate in this debate because I have said my two pence and it is enough.

It's two cents in the states, and it's not backed by gold either.

You are paranoid and that's it. You are a demagogue and that's it.
Well, how  can I argue with such a reasoned defense. Roll Eyes

Why does an Arab/American care so much about Slavic history?
Why not? I should, and do, care about all Orthodox.

You know nothing about us.
Who's "us"?

What is the sense of stirring up conflicts where they do not exist.
What about dealing with conflict where it exists?

Don't trip over that lump in the rug.
Why does a discussion between Slavs about Slavic history have to have interference by someone who is a complete outsider.
WWI. WWII.

Perhaps if you tried humbly to learn something about some peoples you do not know much about I would understand you.
You mean rubber stamp your version of evens. No thank you. That's not humility, it's abdication.

You say that you know what Bialorusins
Belarussians
and Ukrainians think about Poland. Have you been in these countries and talked to the people?

No.

But I have been to Poland.

Supposedly, you place devout Orthodox against Polish Roman Catholics.

Did we lose the devout Polish Orthodox somewhere?

There are accounts of Orthodox priests protecting Roman Catholic churches from the Ukrainian peasants, who in the name of Soviet progress wanted to destroy the churches and other monuments. In one case, there was an Orthodox priest who said that if in this village, you take apart the Polish roadside cross, then I will excommunicate all of you. The villagers then decided not to carry out this operation and left the cross intact. Now, why would an Orthodox parish priest protect the last sign of Polish settlement in this area? The roadside cross is considered to be the line of demarcation between Poles and other nations. Rusins and Germans traditionally don't build roadside crosses.
Do Lemkos count?

http://uzar.wordpress.com/category/history/

I think he was not as intelligent as you are, and did not realise that the Poles are faithless, graceless heretics who deserve to be done away with.
They ARE?! Thanks for the information.

You alluded to this in your glorification of the "solving of the Polish question in Western Ukraine:"

No, I did not. The question was the border. I said nothing about the Polish minority upon which Warsaw based its expansionism.

You truly are a wretched soul.  Your comixture of dialectic Soviet historical theory with Orthodox fanaticism are at best a devilish brew.
do you always stir your brew with your axe, in between grindings, that is?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,849



WWW
« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2010, 11:07:24 AM »


Enough.

Can you all just step back and take a look at yourselves?

Why must folks belittle others so crudely?

Disgusting!

For those of us who claim to be Orthodox, it's high time we behaved as such.

Christ NEVER spoke so rudely.  He preached to love one another.  To be nice.  To be kind. 

The way folks on this forum act, completely contradict what they claim to support - Orthodoxy.

This type of attitude and behavior would never win souls over to Orthodoxy, it would make people turn and run.
Thank God the disciples never acted like this in their attempts at spreading the Word.



Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2010, 11:16:13 AM »

*Amen*, Liza!!!
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
cossack 316
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian orthodox Church
Posts: 143


« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2010, 11:51:43 AM »

FYI, I pray for a CANNONICAL Ukrainian Orthodox Church. I realize that the UOCKP is not cannonically recognized, but I believe one day it will. I understand there are opponents of Patriarch Filaret and that is fine and good. If anyone knows how a church becomes "cannonical" please let me know. The UOCKP has the same sacraments, rules, liturgies as a cannonical church.

My understanding it the only thing that makes the UOCKP uncannonical is that MP, EP and the others do not recognize it. I do not want my church to go under the EP nor for it to reunite with the UOCMP which is a branch of Russian Orthodoxy. I am rare in that I am a 2nd generation Ukrainian who has visited often and is extemely proud of his country and horrified the way this world fights over it. I find it horrifying that people compare that UPA to the SS, the UOCKP to crazy Protestants, the holodomor as crazy Uki nationalism and anti-russian propoganda. (I'm not necessarily refering to just people on this board)

I just want the world to leave us alone, recognize our autocephally as an "equal" church and brothers and sisters in Christ. I am done commenting on the Ukrainian church, the Russian attrocities commited historically against the Ukrainians, the hypocrisy of the politics of religion, etc. Slava Isusu Christu.


Logged
quietmorning
QuietMorning
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,892


May my Dad's Memory be Eternal.


WWW
« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2010, 12:13:02 PM »

Please forgive my foolishness - as I know little about the history of the Ukraine - though thankfully you have given a hopefully good picture of this history. 

My prayer for the Father to make us ONE as He and His Blessed Son are ONE. 

This is and will remain my prayer - let His will be done in all things.  He has promised to restore all things to His Glory - and so be it, amen.  One day my hope is that we will be in agreement in His Peace. 
Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2010, 12:39:15 PM »

I quite frankly don't know what to make of this entire discussion. Look at this thread? I mean we claim as Orthodox Christians that we are "the one true Church" and yet we're digging up ancient vendettas and cultural blood feuds from 1000 years ago (or whenever) and use that to validate our in group/out group mentality  within the Church. I've succumbed to it in the past myself, I know how easy it is, but I just kept asking myself as I've been reading thing, "who cares?!" How does ANY of this make me, or anyone else a better Christian? I'm not directing this at any one person, not in the least. But only at a spirit of "dialogue" that is anything but. unfortunately this seems to be the way most Christians throughout most of Church history have dealt with any problems, demonize the "other" and it begins from the top down. human beings learn by example and when we see our church leaders act in this way, well we're going to do it ourselves. It just makes me sad that this is just reality. I hope everyone can take a step back and just take a breather before continuing on myself included. I'm not posting this as a Moderator, but as a fellow Orthodox Christian, and that's all. (at the moment anyway) It's just too bad Church politics and secular politics have mingled and turned Christian against Christian all over some ethnic or cultural identity. I guess that's human nature, and it what it is. But it still makes me sad.


NP
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2010, 02:28:51 PM »

I quite frankly don't know what to make of this entire discussion. Look at this thread? I mean we claim as Orthodox Christians that we are "the one true Church" and yet we're digging up ancient vendettas and cultural blood feuds from 1000 years ago (or whenever) and use that to validate our in group/out group mentality  within the Church. I've succumbed to it in the past myself, I know how easy it is, but I just kept asking myself as I've been reading thing, "who cares?!" How does ANY of this make me, or anyone else a better Christian? I'm not directing this at any one person, not in the least. But only at a spirit of "dialogue" that is anything but. unfortunately this seems to be the way most Christians throughout most of Church history have dealt with any problems, demonize the "other" and it begins from the top down. human beings learn by example and when we see our church leaders act in this way, well we're going to do it ourselves. It just makes me sad that this is just reality. I hope everyone can take a step back and just take a breather before continuing on myself included. I'm not posting this as a Moderator, but as a fellow Orthodox Christian, and that's all. (at the moment anyway) It's just too bad Church politics and secular politics have mingled and turned Christian against Christian all over some ethnic or cultural identity. I guess that's human nature, and it what it is. But it still makes me sad.


NP

Dear NP,

The situation is, again, like this:

-- IN UKRAINE, SEVERAL MILLION ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS CANNOT ATTEND CHURCH, BECAUSE IT HOLDS, TO A VERY LARGE EXTENT, A VIEW ON UKRAINE THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THESE PEOPLE'S PATRIOTIC FEELINGS.

That's all there is to it, I guess.
Logged

Love never fails.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2010, 02:30:59 PM »

Dear NP,

The situation is, again, like this:

-- IN UKRAINE, SEVERAL MILLION ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS CANNOT ATTEND CHURCH, BECAUSE IT some members of Her HOLDS, TO A VERY LARGE EXTENT, A VIEW ON UKRAINE THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THESE PEOPLE'S PATRIOTIC FEELINGS.

That's all there is to it, I guess.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,823



« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2010, 02:44:35 PM »

I'm really starting to find nationalism in church organization to be unwise, because borders are constantly shifting and changing, and this makes any setup a temporary one, even if for a thousand years.

I'm not so concerned about a "united" church in the USA if it's anything like this Ukraine debate. If this is what t is all about, then I say to hell with "national" churches. Just submit to your bishop and pursue a life of holiness.

A Macedonian church, a Ukrainian church, blah and blah. Let's all just keep dividing up until there's no unified front left, and the wolves from without can come in without any opposition and strip our bones bear. If it happens, we'll deserve it.

The Church which I have just joined is whole and complete, and She has everything She needs in the Eucharist and the liturgy. Glory to God for all things!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 02:45:37 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2010, 03:13:45 PM »

Dear NP,

The situation is, again, like this:

-- IN UKRAINE, SEVERAL MILLION ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS CANNOT ATTEND CHURCH, BECAUSE IT some members of Her HOLDS, TO A VERY LARGE EXTENT, A VIEW ON UKRAINE THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THESE PEOPLE'S PATRIOTIC FEELINGS.

That's all there is to it, I guess.

I agree, Mike! But for many people who live in Ukraine, these "SOME" are all that they directly interact with. For example, if you live in Odesa or the Odesa Oblast', where the Archbishop (+AFATHANGEL) is a rabid Ukrainophobe, pretty much every parish is politicized and anti-Ukrainian. So what can people do? They cannot change the bishop, and they are not always willing to move to another place.

BTW, even in my home city of Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine, there is only ONE UOC parish where one hears the Ukrainian language regularly, and it is in the Vynohradar district (extremely far, perhaps even father than, say, Yonkers from manhattan).
Logged

Love never fails.
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2010, 04:47:52 PM »

I'm really starting to find nationalism in church organization to be unwise, because borders are constantly shifting and changing, and this makes any setup a temporary one, even if for a thousand years.

I'm not so concerned about a "united" church in the USA if it's anything like this Ukraine debate. If this is what t is all about, then I say to hell with "national" churches. Just submit to your bishop and pursue a life of holiness.

A Macedonian church, a Ukrainian church, blah and blah. Let's all just keep dividing up until there's no unified front left, and the wolves from without can come in without any opposition and strip our bones bear. If it happens, we'll deserve it.

The Church which I have just joined is whole and complete, and She has everything She needs in the Eucharist and the liturgy. Glory to God for all things!

Alveus, but you do not live in a country that became independent only 19 years ago and where the everyday life is greatly influenced by the struggle between those who want to keep it independent and those who want to make it back into a "province" that it used to be for centuries.

You guys have to live in Ukraine for at least a few months, and get to know what life is over there. Othewise your judgment is very abstract, it is not based on realities.
Logged

Love never fails.
synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #74 on: September 08, 2010, 04:40:05 AM »

I want to apologise for my retort.
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania)
Posts: 6,861


"My god is greater."


« Reply #75 on: September 08, 2010, 07:30:00 AM »

Alveus, but you do not live in a country that became independent only 19 years ago and where the everyday life is greatly influenced by the struggle between those who want to keep it independent and those who want to make it back into a "province" that it used to be for centuries.

That's a political matter. What is its spiritual significance?
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake

Quote from: Byron
Just ignore iconotools delusions. He is the biggest multiculturalist globalist there is due to his unfortunate background.
synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #76 on: September 08, 2010, 08:55:47 AM »

Alveus, but you do not live in a country that became independent only 19 years ago and where the everyday life is greatly influenced by the struggle between those who want to keep it independent and those who want to make it back into a "province" that it used to be for centuries.

That's a political matter. What is its spiritual significance?
Poland is in a similar situation. It is hard to explain to someone who is from a stable society such as in Great Britain and the USA.
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2010, 12:00:30 PM »

Alveus, but you do not live in a country that became independent only 19 years ago and where the everyday life is greatly influenced by the struggle between those who want to keep it independent and those who want to make it back into a "province" that it used to be for centuries.

That's a political matter. What is its spiritual significance?

1 Timothy 5:8: "But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than unbeliever." In Ukraine, quite a lot of people view their Ukrainian nation as their extended family or "household," which is being assaulted, occupied by maraudeurs who want to destroy it completely. I myself share this sentiment. I want to "provide" for my Ukrainian "household" in every way I can. By joining a church jurisdiction whose hierarchs teach that the "spiritual center" of Ukrainians is in Moscow and that every person who thinks otherwise is a "bad' 'nationalist," I would perhaps aid to those who are directly or indirectly on the side of the maraudeurs, "Ukrainophages."
Logged

Love never fails.
admiralnick
Cardinal, Editor for Photogalleries
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,880


« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2010, 12:17:52 PM »

I do not want to participate in this debate because I have said my two pence and it is enough.
You are paranoid and that's it. You are a demagogue and that's it.
Why does an Arab/American care so much about Slavic history? You know nothing about us. What is the sense of stirring up conflicts where they do not exist. Why does a discussion between Slavs about Slavic history have to have interference by someone who is a complete outsider. Perhaps if you tried humbly to learn something about some peoples you do not know much about I would understand you.

You say that you know what Bialorusins and Ukrainians think about Poland. Have you been in these countries and talked to the people?

Supposedly, you place devout Orthodox against Polish Roman Catholics. There are accounts of Orthodox priests protecting Roman Catholic churches from the Ukrainian peasants, who in the name of Soviet progress wanted to destroy the churches and other monuments. In one case, there was an Orthodox priest who said that if in this village, you take apart the Polish roadside cross, then I will excommunicate all of you. The villagers then decided not to carry out this operation and left the cross intact. Now, why would an Orthodox parish priest protect the last sign of Polish settlement in this area? The roadside cross is considered to be the line of demarcation between Poles and other nations. Rusins and Germans traditionally don't build roadside crosses.
  I think he was not as intelligent as you are, and did not realise that the Poles are faithless, graceless heretics who deserve to be done away with. You alluded to this in your glorification of the "solving of the Polish question in Western Ukraine:" Ad hominem removed  Your comixture of dialectic Soviet historical theory with Orthodox fanaticism are at best a devilish brew.
2-week warning for ad hominem.  Please don't refer to people as "wretched souls."  PM Fr. Chris if you feel this warning is in error.

- Fr. George, Global Moderator

I agree and support everything Isa has posted thus far. Before you question my background, I'm 1/4 Ukrainian, 1/4 Polish, and 1/2 Carpatho-Russian (Slovakian). So can I get involved? If so, I will just have Isa submit his posts to me and I will post them. Will it give them legitimacy if I do that?

-Nick
Logged

The ORIGINAL: "NULL"
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,849



WWW
« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2010, 12:43:41 PM »

That was uncalled for.

synLeszka already apologized.

Snarky remarks are uncalled for.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 12:44:03 PM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2010, 05:44:33 PM »

Dear NP,

The situation is, again, like this:

-- IN UKRAINE, SEVERAL MILLION ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS CANNOT ATTEND CHURCH, BECAUSE IT HOLDS, TO A VERY LARGE EXTENT, A VIEW ON UKRAINE THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THESE PEOPLE'S PATRIOTIC FEELINGS.

That's all there is to it, I guess.

Well, like I said my post wasn't directed at one side or the other. I just don't know enough to "take sides" as it were. I was only reflecting on the fact that our Church is torn asunder by politics, culture, and a thirst for power and that regardless who is at fault, the whole situation is very, very sad. I also find telling entire Churches that they are "un-canonical" for reasons other than heresy (like political reasons) is seriously problematic and not in accord with the historic teaching of the Church. But I just don't know enough about the history to make an informed opinion. Again not taking sides here, just saying the whole situation is terrible, particularly for every day people affected by this.

NP

Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2010, 05:23:05 AM »

Dear NP,

The situation is, again, like this:

-- IN UKRAINE, SEVERAL MILLION ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS CANNOT ATTEND CHURCH, BECAUSE IT HOLDS, TO A VERY LARGE EXTENT, A VIEW ON UKRAINE THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THESE PEOPLE'S PATRIOTIC FEELINGS.

That's all there is to it, I guess.

Well, like I said my post wasn't directed at one side or the other. I just don't know enough to "take sides" as it were. I was only reflecting on the fact that our Church is torn asunder by politics, culture, and a thirst for power and that regardless who is at fault, the whole situation is very, very sad. I also find telling entire Churches that they are "un-canonical" for reasons other than heresy (like political reasons) is seriously problematic and not in accord with the historic teaching of the Church. But I just don't know enough about the history to make an informed opinion. Again not taking sides here, just saying the whole situation is terrible, particularly for every day people affected by this.

NP



Dear NP,

You are so right. To take sides, one needs to know the true history of Ukraine. But the trouble is, the history that the outside world wishes to know about Ukraine simply does not exist. The collection of "facts" one can learn about Ukraine, if this one is not Ukrainian, has been so severely tampered with, soiled, contaminated by the forces that strove to eliminate Ukraine as such - or, same thing, to make it a province of some other, greater, larger, more "important" empire.

Ukraine is at the crossroads of the two civilizations, the Western and the Eastern/Eursian. What "history" of Ukraine to perceive as true, lies pretty much within an individual, within his/her values. Best wishes for your journey to make a choice of yours, if you ever wish to make any.
Logged

Love never fails.
admiralnick
Cardinal, Editor for Photogalleries
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,880


« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2010, 10:01:59 AM »

That was uncalled for.

synLeszka already apologized.

Snarky remarks are uncalled for.

Those weren't snarky remarks, they were honest questions in response to the post. But then again, I suppose that us anti-ukrainians are not capable of asking questions, we must be attacking Ukraine in some way, shape, or form.

-Nick
Logged

The ORIGINAL: "NULL"
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,849



WWW
« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2010, 10:25:23 AM »

That was uncalled for.

synLeszka already apologized.

Snarky remarks are uncalled for.

Those weren't snarky remarks, they were honest questions in response to the post. But then again, I suppose that us anti-ukrainians are not capable of asking questions, we must be attacking Ukraine in some way, shape, or form.

-Nick

Again...you are trying to get a rise out of folks and get an argument going.  Why?

This is what you said:

I agree and support everything Isa has posted thus far. Before you question my background, I'm 1/4 Ukrainian, 1/4 Polish, and 1/2 Carpatho-Russian (Slovakian). So can I get involved? If so, I will just have Isa submit his posts to me and I will post them. Will it give them legitimacy if I do that?

-Nick


Maybe, it's just my "pro-Ukrainian" stance...but, it seems to me that when you are making an assumption that because of your ethnicity someone won't allow you to post, or that your opinion doesn't matter...that's uncalled for. 

If you were referring to the remark by synLeszka, that person already apologized.  What do you want from them?

Where's the Orthodox behavior?

I truly am sorry that you are "anti" Ukrainian, as you said.  It's too bad.

As a true Orthodox, we should not be anti anyone. 



Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
cossack 316
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian orthodox Church
Posts: 143


« Reply #84 on: September 09, 2010, 11:06:56 AM »

Well I admit I am anti-ignorance and anti-soviet. I hope that doesn't make me unchristian.
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,849



WWW
« Reply #85 on: September 09, 2010, 11:15:17 AM »


Being anti-evil is one thing.

However, when you are anti a nationality, an ethnicity, a peoples....that is entirely different.

Even if a Ukrainian has done someone wrong, disliking the entire nation because of that one person's actions, is un-Christian.
You shouldn't even dislike that one person, but, forgive them and pray for them.

Hating the country and being anti-Ukrainian is just really immature.

I love how some folks pick and choose which "parts" of Orthodoxy they support and adhere to.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #86 on: September 09, 2010, 11:44:35 AM »

Dear NP,

The situation is, again, like this:

-- IN UKRAINE, SEVERAL MILLION ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS CANNOT ATTEND CHURCH, BECAUSE IT HOLDS, TO A VERY LARGE EXTENT, A VIEW ON UKRAINE THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH THESE PEOPLE'S PATRIOTIC FEELINGS.

That's all there is to it, I guess.

Well, like I said my post wasn't directed at one side or the other. I just don't know enough to "take sides" as it were. I was only reflecting on the fact that our Church is torn asunder by politics, culture, and a thirst for power and that regardless who is at fault, the whole situation is very, very sad. I also find telling entire Churches that they are "un-canonical" for reasons other than heresy (like political reasons) is seriously problematic and not in accord with the historic teaching of the Church. But I just don't know enough about the history to make an informed opinion. Again not taking sides here, just saying the whole situation is terrible, particularly for every day people affected by this.

NP



Dear NP,

You are so right. To take sides, one needs to know the true history of Ukraine. But the trouble is, the history that the outside world wishes to know about Ukraine simply does not exist. The collection of "facts" one can learn about Ukraine, if this one is not Ukrainian,

because we know that no Ukrainian, at least not one of the U"O"C-KP persuasion, would not tamper with, soil, contaminate said collection of "facts" with the forces that strive to create Ukraine as such.  Just ask a Ruthenian/Rusyn/Carpato-Russian/Rusyn

Quote
has been so severely tampered with, soiled, contaminated by the forces that strove to eliminate Ukraine as such - or, same thing, to make it a province of some other, greater, larger, more "important" empire.

Like the Vatican?

Quote
Ukraine is at the crossroads of the two civilizations, the Western and the Eastern/Eursian.

Eurasian? Never heard of that civilization. As for the Western/Eastern divide in European Civilization

Ukraine lies East of it. (you can ignore the dribble written on the map and in the linked post
http://www.hunreal.com/european-cultural-divides/
as it is that, dribble. He seems never to heard of the papal states and the Inquisition.  Popular culture is du jour, culture is not).

Quote
What "history" of Ukraine to perceive as true, lies pretty much within an individual, within his/her values. Best wishes for your journey to make a choice of yours, if you ever wish to make any.
Not exactly that idiosyncratic, but definitely influencing.  Everyone views from a POV.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
admiralnick
Cardinal, Editor for Photogalleries
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,880


« Reply #87 on: September 09, 2010, 12:06:21 PM »

That was uncalled for.

synLeszka already apologized.

Snarky remarks are uncalled for.

Those weren't snarky remarks, they were honest questions in response to the post. But then again, I suppose that us anti-ukrainians are not capable of asking questions, we must be attacking Ukraine in some way, shape, or form.

-Nick
Since you seem to be good at misinterpreting my comments, I will add sarcasm tags for you when they apply.

Again...you are trying to get a rise out of folks and get an argument going.  Why?

I am not trying to get an argument going about anything. I was merely responding to synLeszka's post as I quoted in my original post. You are the one who interpreted my remarks as snarky, to which I gave you a response. Maybe if I had laid it out like this you could understand it better:
Those weren't snarky remarks, they were honest questions in response to the post.

[SARCASM]But then again, I suppose that us anti-ukrainians are not capable of asking questions, we must be attacking Ukraine in some way, shape, or form.[/SARCASM]

This is what you said:

I agree and support everything Isa has posted thus far. Before you question my background, I'm 1/4 Ukrainian, 1/4 Polish, and 1/2 Carpatho-Russian (Slovakian). So can I get involved? If so, I will just have Isa submit his posts to me and I will post them. Will it give them legitimacy if I do that?

-Nick


Maybe, it's just my "pro-Ukrainian" stance...but, it seems to me that when you are making an assumption that because of your ethnicity someone won't allow you to post, or that your opinion doesn't matter...that's uncalled for. 

So what's the difference between what I said and what I responded to, mine is uncalled for but the other comment is not?

Quote
Why does an Arab/American care so much about Slavic history? You know nothing about us. What is the sense of stirring up conflicts where they do not exist. Why does a discussion between Slavs about Slavic history have to have interference by someone who is a complete outsider. Perhaps if you tried humbly to learn something about some peoples you do not know much about I would understand you.

Seems to be an assumption was made here that because a person was Arab/American they can't care about slavic history and are merely outsiders interfering in Slavs and Slavic history. [SARCASM]But then again, synLeszka apologized so its all ok now.[/SARCASM] The illustration of my ethnic background was to illustrate that whether the information would come from Isa (who is not a slav) or from myself (who is a slav) doesn't make the information any less accurate or change it in any way shape or form as was implied by synLeszka

If you were referring to the remark by synLeszka, that person already apologized.  What do you want from them?

I was referring to synLeszka, your participation was not required. Yes the poster apologized, it doesn't mean that their way of thinking has changed or that it won't happen again.

Where's the Orthodox behavior?

[SARCASM] I left it at the door when I decided to become a nationalistic loud mouthed American[/SARCASM]

I truly am sorry that you are "anti" Ukrainian, as you said.  It's too bad.

Anti-Ukrainian was your term from another thread, not one I invented, try again.

As a true Orthodox, we should not be anti anyone. 

Thank you, I will be sure to model my behavior after yours.


-Nick





Logged

The ORIGINAL: "NULL"
rakovsky
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 4,206



WWW
« Reply #88 on: September 11, 2010, 02:23:00 AM »

With all due respect, saying that Russians aren't slavs is like saying that Jews have no connection to Judea or Judah; or that Germans are Aryans in a way slavs aren't; or that the Native Americans are the Lost Tribes of Israel.

Considering their danger to cause people to have a sense of superiority/inferiority or ethnic strife, these kinds of racial ideas should come stamped "For entertainment purposes only".
Logged
synLeszka
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 532


« Reply #89 on: September 11, 2010, 06:42:35 AM »

I want to clarify my stance. I am for Ukrainian statehood and independence from the Russian Federation. I believe that the Ukrainian people are a brotherly people to us Poles, who share with us a common belief in Christ. I do not support in any way the claims of Moscow, that Poland and Ukraine are little midget nations which should listen subserviently and obediently to Moscow. My blood boils when I hear about what Putin and his ideologists say about central Europe. Example typical Russian Putinist ideologian Karaganov's rhetoric: If Russia becomes more democratic and rich, then you (Poles in this context) will fear us even more. Russia will always threathen you. If we stop being a threat, then we will quit being Russian, we will stop being a strong, free, and happy people. Taken from an interview in the Polish Gazeta Wyborcza in May 2008
.
Karaganov in a discussion explained that the ideal situation for Russia would be a return to the era of Otto von Bismarck. Then someone pointed out that this ime was not the best for Poles, Lithuanians or Ukrainians. Karaganov then replied, that if we start   talking about the interests of small nations, someone will always suffer. With the liquidation of small nations, keeping within Karaganov's thought,the peace between the empires will bring about an era of tranquility and peace, prosperity will grow and Europe will be a stable place.
I have to add that I support Ukraine but not UPA. You will have your viewpoint and I will have mine. The discussion is needed but the historiography and mythology of the Ukrainian nationalist movement needs to be reassessed.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 06:45:13 AM by synLeszka » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #90 on: September 11, 2010, 07:16:35 AM »

The discussion is needed but the historiography and mythology of the Ukrainian and Polish nationalist movements needs to be reassessed.

I agree.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,333



« Reply #91 on: September 11, 2010, 08:34:20 AM »

I want to clarify my stance. I am for Ukrainian statehood and independence from the Russian Federation. I believe that the Ukrainian people are a brotherly people to us Poles, who share with us a common belief in Christ. I do not support in any way the claims of Moscow, that Poland and Ukraine are little midget nations which should listen subserviently and obediently to Moscow. My blood boils when I hear about what Putin and his ideologists say about central Europe. Example typical Russian Putinist ideologian Karaganov's rhetoric: If Russia becomes more democratic and rich, then you (Poles in this context) will fear us even more. Russia will always threathen you. If we stop being a threat, then we will quit being Russian, we will stop being a strong, free, and happy people. Taken from an interview in the Polish Gazeta Wyborcza in May 2008
.
Karaganov in a discussion explained that the ideal situation for Russia would be a return to the era of Otto von Bismarck. Then someone pointed out that this ime was not the best for Poles, Lithuanians or Ukrainians. Karaganov then replied, that if we start   talking about the interests of small nations, someone will always suffer. With the liquidation of small nations, keeping within Karaganov's thought,the peace between the empires will bring about an era of tranquility and peace, prosperity will grow and Europe will be a stable place.
I have to add that I support Ukraine but not UPA. You will have your viewpoint and I will have mine. The discussion is needed but the historiography and mythology of the Ukrainian nationalist movement needs to be reassessed.
Who is Karaganov?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Tags: Ukraine Ukrainian Orthodox Church 
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.46 seconds with 119 queries.