Topic: Rusyn, Ruthenian, ACROD

[cossack 316]

As a second generation Ukrainian American, I was unfamiliar with the Rusyn until a few years ago. The ACROD, are their liturgies different from a Ukrainian Orthodox liturgy? If they are, how are they different? Does the choir sing in melodies more like Ukrainian Catholics than Ukrainian Orthodox? My understanding is the the Rusyn people come from the part of Ukraine that borders present day Slovakia. Is the language/alphabet different than Ukrainian? 

[Michael L]

As a second generation Ukrainian American, I was unfamiliar with the Rusyn until a few years ago. The ACROD, are their liturgies different from a Ukrainian Orthodox liturgy? If they are, how are they different? Does the choir sing in melodies more like Ukrainian Catholics than Ukrainian Orthodox? My understanding is the the Rusyn people come from the part of Ukraine that borders present day Slovakia. Is the language/alphabet different than Ukrainian? 

I believe the Rusyn language is closer to Russian than Modern Ukrainian and does use the cyrillic alphabet. The liturgies used in ACROD is not the same as the UOC, and is different than the UGC liturgy as far as the music goes. The Ruysn use a form of plain chant known as prostopinije. Tou can hear it here: http://www.acrod.org/multimedia/audio/liturgicalmusic

[Heorhij]

As a second generation Ukrainian American, I was unfamiliar with the Rusyn until a few years ago. The ACROD, are their liturgies different from a Ukrainian Orthodox liturgy? If they are, how are they different? Does the choir sing in melodies more like Ukrainian Catholics than Ukrainian Orthodox? My understanding is the the Rusyn people come from the part of Ukraine that borders present day Slovakia. Is the language/alphabet different than Ukrainian? 

I believe the Rusyn language is closer to Russian than Modern Ukrainian and does use the cyrillic alphabet. The liturgies used in ACROD is not the same as the UOC, and is different than the UGC liturgy as far as the music goes. The Ruysn use a form of plain chant known as prostopinije. Tou can hear it here: http://www.acrod.org/multimedia/audio/liturgicalmusic

Do you know the Rusyn language?

[ICXCNIKA]

I am a member of an ACROD group on FB and i stated on there that I would be interested in learning Rusyn. I got 3 different responses. One told me to learn Russian, another Ukrainian, and another Slovak and they all swore that each was the most similar to rusyn. needless to say I still have no idea how to learn rusyn.

[Michael L]

I believe the Rusyn language is closer to Russian than Modern Ukrainian and does use the cyrillic alphabet. The liturgies used in ACROD is not the same as the UOC, and is different than the UGC liturgy as far as the music goes. The Ruysn use a form of plain chant known as prostopinije. Tou can hear it here: http://www.acrod.org/multimedia/audio/liturgicalmusic

Do you know the Rusyn language?

NO I do not. In my Byzantine catholic days I read up on it. Here is the alphabet and some vocabulary...http://www.puluka.com/home/assets/documents/RusynLessons.pdf

[Heorhij]

I believe the Rusyn language is closer to Russian than Modern Ukrainian and does use the cyrillic alphabet. The liturgies used in ACROD is not the same as the UOC, and is different than the UGC liturgy as far as the music goes. The Ruysn use a form of plain chant known as prostopinije. Tou can hear it here: http://www.acrod.org/multimedia/audio/liturgicalmusic

Do you know the Rusyn language?

NO I do not. In my Byzantine catholic days I read up on it. Here is the alphabet and some vocabulary...http://www.puluka.com/home/assets/documents/RusynLessons.pdf

Why are you then saying with such confidence that Rusyn is closer to Russian than to Ukrainian? The Ukrainian and Russian languages happen to be two "equally first" languages, I speak them both with absolute fluency of a natural speaker. And when I hear Rusyn speaking their language, I find it a lot closer to Ukrainian than to modern spoken Russian...

[Heorhij]

I am a member of an ACROD group on FB and i stated on there that I would be interested in learning Rusyn. I got 3 different responses. One told me to learn Russian, another Ukrainian, and another Slovak and they all swore that each was the most similar to rusyn. needless to say I still have no idea how to learn rusyn.

That's because Rusyns traditionally lived in the "corner" where they were exposed to influences of Ukrainian, Russian, Slovak and Hungarian languages. But still the language they speak sounds to me (a native Ukrainian AND Russian speaker) closer to Ukrainian than to Russian. Vasyl' Stefanyk and Josyf Yuriy Fed'kovych both wrote in a Carpato-Rusyn dialect, but when I studied in my Soviet school, we stuidied them in the course of the Ukrainian literature, not Russian literature.

[Schultz]

I believe the Rusyn language is closer to Russian than Modern Ukrainian and does use the cyrillic alphabet. The liturgies used in ACROD is not the same as the UOC, and is different than the UGC liturgy as far as the music goes. The Ruysn use a form of plain chant known as prostopinije. Tou can hear it here: http://www.acrod.org/multimedia/audio/liturgicalmusic

Do you know the Rusyn language?

NO I do not. In my Byzantine catholic days I read up on it. Here is the alphabet and some vocabulary...http://www.puluka.com/home/assets/documents/RusynLessons.pdf

Why are you then saying with such confidence that Rusyn is closer to Russian than to Ukrainian? The Ukrainian and Russian languages happen to be two "equally first" languages, I speak them both with absolute fluency of a natural speaker. And when I hear Rusyn speaking their language, I find it a lot closer to Ukrainian than to modern spoken Russian...

I don't think Michael L said anything "with confidence," as he prepended his statement with "I believe..." which is generally accepted to be an opinion.  I don't know the Rusyn language, either, but I've certainly read Rusyn sources and heard from born-Rusyn speakers the same thing.  I'm asking you as a friend to please don't make this a pro-Ukie/anti-Ruskie thing.

I also think it sounds more like Slovak than Ukrainian OR Russian, but that's just me and probably has more to do with sounds than actual syntax.

[Michael L]

I believe the Rusyn language is closer to Russian than Modern Ukrainian and does use the cyrillic alphabet. The liturgies used in ACROD is not the same as the UOC, and is different than the UGC liturgy as far as the music goes. The Ruysn use a form of plain chant known as prostopinije. Tou can hear it here: http://www.acrod.org/multimedia/audio/liturgicalmusic

Do you know the Rusyn language?

NO I do not. In my Byzantine catholic days I read up on it. Here is the alphabet and some vocabulary...http://www.puluka.com/home/assets/documents/RusynLessons.pdf

Why are you then saying with such confidence that Rusyn is closer to Russian than to Ukrainian? The Ukrainian and Russian languages happen to be two "equally first" languages, I speak them both with absolute fluency of a natural speaker. And when I hear Rusyn speaking their language, I find it a lot closer to Ukrainian than to modern spoken Russian...

I don't think Michael L said anything "with confidence," as he prepended his statement with "I believe..." which is generally accepted to be an opinion.  I don't know the Rusyn language, either, but I've certainly read Rusyn sources and heard from born-Rusyn speakers the same thing.  I'm asking you as a friend to please don't make this a pro-Ukie/anti-Ruskie thing.

I also think it sounds more like Slovak than Ukrainian OR Russian, but that's just me and probably has more to do with sounds than actual syntax.

Thanks Schultz! You answered Heorhij exactly as I would have.

Heorhij, please do not drag me into any territory wars. I study Russian but I am not the linguist that you are and certainly am not exhorting any expertise in Rusyn.

[podkarpatska]

I believe the Rusyn language is closer to Russian than Modern Ukrainian and does use the cyrillic alphabet. The liturgies used in ACROD is not the same as the UOC, and is different than the UGC liturgy as far as the music goes. The Ruysn use a form of plain chant known as prostopinije. Tou can hear it here: http://www.acrod.org/multimedia/audio/liturgicalmusic

Do you know the Rusyn language?

NO I do not. In my Byzantine catholic days I read up on it. Here is the alphabet and some vocabulary...http://www.puluka.com/home/assets/documents/RusynLessons.pdf

Why are you then saying with such confidence that Rusyn is closer to Russian than to Ukrainian? The Ukrainian and Russian languages happen to be two "equally first" languages, I speak them both with absolute fluency of a natural speaker. And when I hear Rusyn speaking their language, I find it a lot closer to Ukrainian than to modern spoken Russian...

The Rusyns, never having a homogeneous 'homeland' tend to speak a variety of dialects. For example, my parents' families were from villages near Presov in what is now the Slovak Republic. The Slovak influence on their dialect was perceptible to those whose families came from near Uzhorod, whose dialect was more heavily influenced by formal Ukrainian. For those Rusyns whose villages abutted Hungary, the Magyar influence is quite obvious on their speech patterns and dialect. (It was a long standing family joke that Metropolitan Nicholas of ACROD (whose mother's family came from the Transcarpathian region, which includes Uzhorod) would always jokingly refer to my dad as being Slovak, while my dad would reciprocate by calling the Metropolitan a Ukrainian! Then they would break into a hearty round of Rusyn folk songs or religious "prostopenije" mnohaja lita (many years)! One thing that did unite the Rusyns, regardless of the county of their origin or dialect, and which differentiates them from both the liturgical practices of either the UGCC or the Ukrainian Orthodox was their Liturgical practices. Since the Rusyns were isolated in the high Carpathian regions, they were cut off by both geography and politics from the Nikonian reforms, the reforms of St.Peter Mohyla and other changes in Constantinopolitan practice post-1453. A fairly non-controversial explanation of this was published on line by the American Byzantine Catholic eparchy and may be found at: http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/Typikon.html

[Deacon Lance]

My priest speaks Rusyn fluently and states he can understand Ukrainian no problem, Russian is much harder although he can get by, Slovak is harder than Ukrainian but easier than Russian.

[Deacon Lance]

As a second generation Ukrainian American, I was unfamiliar with the Rusyn until a few years ago. The ACROD, are their liturgies different from a Ukrainian Orthodox liturgy? If they are, how are they different? Does the choir sing in melodies more like Ukrainian Catholics than Ukrainian Orthodox? My understanding is the the Rusyn people come from the part of Ukraine that borders present day Slovakia. Is the language/alphabet different than Ukrainian? 

ACROD, as well as Ukrainian, Ruthenian, Slovak, Croatian, and Hungarian Catholic Churches all share the Ruthenian Recension Liturgy.  The Ukrainian, Polish and Czechoslovak Orthodox should share it but I think they use the Nikonian Liturgy.
ACROD Divine Liturgy and Great Vespers:
http://www.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/divineliturgy
http://www.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/gvespers

ACROD does not use choirs, the entire congregation sings the Prostopinje chant unique to the Rusyns, Catholic and Orthodox.

[stanley123]

What would be the differences, if there are any, between Rusyn and Ruthenian?
thanks.

[Schultz]

What would be the differences, if there are any, between Rusyn and Ruthenian?
thanks.

None.  Ruthenian is merely the Latin equivalent of Rusyn.

[Sloga]

There's a population of rusyns in Vojvodina where my mom is from. I find it much easier to read and understand that rusyn than Russian or Ukrainian. That said, I'm aware that the Rusyn language in Serbia is Pannonian Rusyn and its a tad different from the one up in Slovakia because it has more south-slavic elements in it, so that could explain that.

on a side note, I always figured my moms late dad was actually of Slovak origin, but now I'm wondering if he was a Rusyn...

[stashko]

There's a population of rusyns in Vojvodina where my mom is from. I find it much easier to read and understand that rusyn than Russian or Ukrainian. That said, I'm aware that the Rusyn language in Serbia is Pannonian Rusyn and its a tad different from the one up in Slovakia because it has more south-slavic elements in it, so that could explain that.

on a side note, I always figured my moms late dad was actually of Slovak origin, but now I'm wondering if he was a Rusyn...

Sloga Zdravo....

Are the any Sorbians living in Serbija....I just read about them  recently....I never Even Knew they existed till now....

[Sloga]

There's a population of rusyns in Vojvodina where my mom is from. I find it much easier to read and understand that rusyn than Russian or Ukrainian. That said, I'm aware that the Rusyn language in Serbia is Pannonian Rusyn and its a tad different from the one up in Slovakia because it has more south-slavic elements in it, so that could explain that.

on a side note, I always figured my moms late dad was actually of Slovak origin, but now I'm wondering if he was a Rusyn...

Sloga Zdravo....

Are the any Sorbians living in Serbija....I just read about them  recently....I never Even Knew they existed till now....

no. The Sorbi are a fellow slavic ethnic group located in Germany. The similarity in names is merely a coincidence in us Serbs and them Sorbs keeping the original proto-slavic term Srb, which probably meant man. The Sorbs were apart of the Western Slavic expansion, us Serbs apart of the South obviosly.

Theres a rather unverified claim by some historians that modern day Serbs are a result of Lusitian/Sorb migrations down south led by the Nepoznati Knez (Unknown Archont) to modern day Serbia where they mixed with the slavs there. I'd stick with the former explanation though

[podkarpatska]

As a second generation Ukrainian American, I was unfamiliar with the Rusyn until a few years ago. The ACROD, are their liturgies different from a Ukrainian Orthodox liturgy? If they are, how are they different? Does the choir sing in melodies more like Ukrainian Catholics than Ukrainian Orthodox? My understanding is the the Rusyn people come from the part of Ukraine that borders present day Slovakia. Is the language/alphabet different than Ukrainian?  

ACROD, as well as Ukrainian, Ruthenian, Slovak, Croatian, and Hungarian Catholic Churches all share the Ruthenian Recension Liturgy.  The Ukrainian, Polish and Czechoslovak Orthodox should share it but I think they use the Nikonian Liturgy.
ACROD Divine Liturgy and Great Vespers:
http://www.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/divineliturgy
http://www.acrod.org/prayercorner/textsresources/gvespers

ACROD does not use choirs, the entire congregation sings the Prostopinje chant unique to the Rusyns, Catholic and Orthodox.

In many of our ACROD parishes there is a mix of choral and Prostopenije chant. It is my understanding that in many larger parishes in  Austria-Hungary, such as Presov and Uzhorod, choirs had been established within the Rusyn Greek Catholic church by the late 19th century.  The choral tradition in the States dates back to the early 20th century when many of the larger parishes (which were Greek Catholic at that time and have been Orthodox since the late 1930's and early 1940's) such as St. Michael's in Binghamton, NY, St. John's in Perth Amboy, NJ and St. John's in Bridgeport, CT were able to obtain trained choral masters who left Europe following the first World War  who were trained in Uzhorod or L'viv (and even St. Petersburg) before coming to the states. This was also true within the Byzantine Catholic Church. in America.  The choir from Holy Ghost in Philadelphia comes to mind for one as well as that of Prof. Kahanik in Passaic, NJ to name a few.

[mike]

ACROD, as well as Ukrainian, Ruthenian, Slovak, Croatian, and Hungarian Catholic Churches all share the Ruthenian Recension Liturgy.  The Ukrainian, Polish and Czechoslovak Orthodox should share it but I think they use the Nikonian Liturgy.

Why should the Polish Church use it?

[podkarpatska]

I am a member of an ACROD group on FB and i stated on there that I would be interested in learning Rusyn. I got 3 different responses. One told me to learn Russian, another Ukrainian, and another Slovak and they all swore that each was the most similar to rusyn. needless to say I still have no idea how to learn rusyn.

Literary Rusyn was first transcribed in the 19th century by Father Alexander Duchnovych, a Greek Catholic priest (of partial high Russian aristocratic lineage)  and a man regarded as the 'father of the Rusyn national movement' of the era. He is the author of the national hymn of the Rusyn peoples - 'Ja rusyn byl.'  http://rdsa.tripod.com/peoplewithout.html His transcriptions have a bias towards literary Russian of the time and were not readily understandable by the average Rusyn - most of whom were not literate in Europe of that era, but who became literate in the Americas. (It has been hypothesized that the rapid Russification of many Rusyn immigrants to America in the early 20th century came about as a result of the form of the literary language and the ease which Russian speakers had in becoming understandable in 'po nasemu.' (Argument for another day though......) )

Rusyns from what is known as Transcarpathia, now part of the nation of Ukraine speak a dialect of Rusyn which more closely resembles modern Ukrainian, albeit with certain distinct idiomatic expressions and pronunciations. It can be a bit jarring to one native to formal Ukrainian as the accents often mirror a more Russified tone than does modern Ukrainian.

Rusyns from what is now Slovakia speak a mixture of Transcarpathian Rusyn and Slovak, the further west from the Tatras one ventures, the greater the Slovak influence. (This  sub-dialect is called phonetically 'hutoratci' - not sure about spelling....)

Rusyns from America and Canada speak English. Most of our parents gave up trying to figure out all of this stuff long ago.

All Rusyns will drink a fair amount, toast each other, sing the same songs, toast some more and start a fight about who speaks proper 'po nasemu.' This is true in Europe and in North America.

All dialects avoid the Magyar influence under penalty of explusion from the local 'Russian Club'.

I am sure this didn't help, but believe it of not, I am no really not speaking totally tongue in cheek.

[podkarpatska]

ACROD, as well as Ukrainian, Ruthenian, Slovak, Croatian, and Hungarian Catholic Churches all share the Ruthenian Recension Liturgy.  The Ukrainian, Polish and Czechoslovak Orthodox should share it but I think they use the Nikonian Liturgy.

Why should the Polish Church use it?

Because at the time St. Peter Molyla, the Orthodox Metropolitan of Halych, Kiev and All-Rus transcribed this in the 17th century, the Orthodox bishops of what is now Poland were under his omophorion - not that of Moscow. I don't think this is really a big issue or a big deal given how the shifting sands of history influenced the subsequent developments within each of these churches.