Author Topic: Icons with Crowns  (Read 3964 times)

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Offline CatholicLife

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Icons with Crowns
« on: September 04, 2010, 05:36:19 PM »
Is it true that an icon can not depict the Blessed Virgin Mary wearing a crown? If the answer is no ,then what about these? ???





Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2010, 06:11:07 PM »
They are Roman Catholic embellishments which are not a part of the Orthodox iconographic tradition, so they technically shouldn't be made. However, just because these exist does not mean that they should not be venerated. I would just say that iconographers should be more aware of these rules, and it seems today that most iconographers are much more informed than before.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2010, 06:21:46 PM »
Quote
Is it true that an icon can not depict the Blessed Virgin Mary wearing a crown? If the answer is no ,then what about these?

Who told you that? Barsanuphius Jones perhaps?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 06:23:11 PM by augustin717 »

Offline Ionnis

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2010, 06:25:14 PM »
In my parish, if I recall correctly, all the Icons of the Mother of God (minus the Joy of All Who Sorrow icon) depict Our Lady with a crown.  I don't see the issue with it.  It's not like the crown is theologically incorrect.  The Mother of God is Queen, no? 
"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2010, 06:58:25 PM »
Who told you that? Barsanuphius Jones perhaps?

I was told this by a priest, I think. Why, is it incorrect?

Offline augustin717

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2010, 07:06:36 PM »
Who told you that? Barsanuphius Jones perhaps?

I was told this by a priest, I think. Why, is it incorrect?
It's a non-issue IMHO.

Offline Paisius

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2010, 10:32:43 PM »
It's a non-issue IMHO.

Romania has spoken, the case is closed!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 10:33:04 PM by Paisius »

Offline augustin717

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2010, 10:56:30 PM »
Paisius Jones?

Offline Ionnis

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2010, 11:03:20 PM »
*grabs popcorn*
"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope

Offline Paisius

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2010, 11:12:43 PM »

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2010, 04:49:29 AM »





Selam
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2010, 05:32:39 AM »
I was told this by a priest, I think. Why, is it incorrect?

I tend to agree with augustin717 that it's a non-issue really. Did that priest explain why he thinks that it's somehow wrong to depict crowns in icons?
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Offline LBK

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2010, 06:49:50 AM »
The practice of "crowning" icons of the Mother of God is from Roman Catholic tradition. The painting of icons in Russian, Romanian, Ukrainian or other Orthodox tradition where there was strong Roman Catholic influence in earlier centuries is not surprising.

Having said that, there are a few icons which do not follow proper Orthodox canons, but which have been regarded as miraculous, such as the Derzhavnaya (the Mother of God enthroned, with the Christ-child in her lap).

I can say without hesitation that the image provided by Gebre Menfes Kidus would be completely unacceptable to Eastern Orthodox, as it depicts God the Father in human form, which is contrary to Orthodox canon and Holy Tradition. The crowning of the Virgin in this image, as well as the depictin of God the Father in human form, is nothing more than the Roman Catholic influence on religious images on the OO church.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 06:55:42 AM by LBK »
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Offline mike

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2010, 07:03:16 AM »
Maybe because icon coronation is a Catholic devotion?

Well, there are plenty of Orthodox icons that in some point of history were taken away by Catholics and coronated. Crowns later became arts of their appearance.
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2010, 07:16:58 AM »
The practice of "crowning" icons of the Mother of God is from Roman Catholic tradition. The painting of icons in Russian, Romanian, Ukrainian or other Orthodox tradition where there was strong Roman Catholic influence in earlier centuries is not surprising.

Having said that, there are a few icons which do not follow proper Orthodox canons, but which have been regarded as miraculous, such as the Derzhavnaya (the Mother of God enthroned, with the Christ-child in her lap).

I can say without hesitation that the image provided by Gebre Menfes Kidus would be completely unacceptable to Eastern Orthodox, as it depicts God the Father in human form, which is contrary to Orthodox canon and Holy Tradition. The crowning of the Virgin in this image, as well as the depictin of God the Father in human form, is nothing more than the Roman Catholic influence on religious images on the OO church.


I can assure you that while our Ethiopian Orthodox icons may not be acceptable to EO's, they certainly are not influenced by Roman Catholicism. Do you really think that our non-Chalcedonian Churches would follow the lead of the schismatics that came after us? It is far more likely that Roman Catholics copied us, not the other way around! Considering the demonic assults on our Church by the Italians and their papacy, it is quite ludicrous to assume that our Church desires to mimic Roman iconography.


Selam
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 07:19:32 AM by Gebre Menfes Kidus »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2010, 07:24:46 AM »
Maybe because icon coronation is a Catholic devotion?

Well, there are plenty of Orthodox icons that in some point of history were taken away by Catholics and coronated. Crowns later became arts of their appearance.

Crowning icons of the Mother of God (which almost always includes crowning the Christ-child she holds) is definitely a Roman Catholic practice. The Orthodox in border regions in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, and other regions bordering Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, and other empires or nations predominantly Roman Catholic couldn't help being influenced by the RC in past centuries. It is from these influences that "crowned" icons of the Mother of God and, often, her Child, arose. Before the 17thC, an Orthodox icon of the Virgin or her Child did not exist.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 07:34:22 AM by LBK »
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2010, 11:11:06 AM »
Do you really think that our non-Chalcedonian Churches would follow the lead of the schismatics that came after us?

 Where do all the pictures of Christ as a blue-eyed white man come from?

Offline synLeszka

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2010, 02:37:41 PM »
It's kinda of ironic because I thought of this when I finished walking the 200 km pilgrimage to Jasna Gora -Czestochowa. When I was on pilgrimage I prayed for the unity of Catholic and Orthodox Churches. My thoughts wandered back to this forum. The flame wars here discouraged me but in the end I decided that I will pray for this cause because it is just.
Back to the topic at hand:
The question is not whether the norm of some archaic code allows this but what is the meaning of this practice. In defining the litis contestanionis of the question, the controversy in this case is not the iconographers' code what is the place of the devotion to the Mother of God, the Virgin Mary in the Church.

The Church divides itself in faithful servants of the Mother of God and faithful servants of the Antichrist. Those who denigrate the Virgin Mother of God's dignity are the servants of the Antichrist.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 02:38:55 PM by synLeszka »

Offline stashko

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2010, 12:55:37 AM »
It's kinda of ironic because I thought of this when I finished walking the 200 km pilgrimage to Jasna Gora -Czestochowa. When I was on pilgrimage I prayed for the unity of Catholic and Orthodox Churches. My thoughts wandered back to this forum. The flame wars here discouraged me but in the end I decided that I will pray for this cause because it is just.
Back to the topic at hand:
The question is not whether the norm of some archaic code allows this but what is the meaning of this practice. In defining the litis contestanionis of the question, the controversy in this case is not the iconographers' code what is the place of the devotion to the Mother of God, the Virgin Mary in the Church.

The Church divides itself in faithful servants of the Mother of God and faithful servants of the Antichrist. Those who denigrate the Virgin Mother of God's dignity are the servants of the Antichrist.

Don't you  in poland follow a questionable Divine mercy apparition....When will the catholics in poland ,France,Portugal medjugorije ,or where ever the talking apparitions appeared stop accepting there guidance ignore them and rebuke them...And accept what we  received from the Holy Fathers faith once delivered unto salvation...We don't want spooks phantoms specters ghost, demons,or what ever giving us alternative ways to salvation that will lead us astay to damnation...Unknown to the holy Fathers faith once delivered... ;D
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 01:03:22 AM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline synLeszka

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2010, 04:24:39 AM »
Don't you  in poland follow a questionable Divine mercy apparition....When will the catholics in poland ,France,Portugal medjugorije ,or where ever the talking apparitions appeared stop accepting there guidance ignore them and rebuke them...And accept what we  received from the Holy Fathers faith once delivered unto salvation...We don't want spooks phantoms specters ghost, demons,or what ever giving us alternative ways to salvation that will lead us astay to damnation...Unknown to the holy Fathers faith once delivered... ;D
Our belief in the Mother of God, the Virgin Mary is older than these aforementioned apparitions.
The two most popular icons of the Mother God which are venerated in Catholic Poland are also venerated by Orthodox. These icons are the Bogurodzica from Jasna Góra and the Ostrobramska  Mother of God. These icons are a huge part of our national religious heritage, the copies of these icons have followed us when Poles moved West and East.  

Ostrobramska icon
http://sklep.cerkiew.pl/product_info.php?cPath=40_44_47_55&products_id=325
Jasnogórska/ Częstochowska Bogurodzica
http://sklep.cerkiew.pl/product_info.php?products_id=2249
A miracle is a break within the time continuum. It is an event which destroys all our rational routines and logical actions. It is a time when the grace of God acts directly and causes mayhem to our orderly, rational, logical schemes of thought. In the Gospels, there is an account of the healing of a lunatic, whose demons asked Christ if they could go into the swine. Christ allowed them to enter into the swine. After this, the demented swine herd  ran over a precipice. The local villagers then asked Christ to leave their country and never come back. You display a similar attitude.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 04:27:57 AM by synLeszka »

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2010, 06:31:34 AM »
It's kinda of ironic because I thought of this when I finished walking the 200 km pilgrimage to Jasna Gora -Czestochowa. When I was on pilgrimage I prayed for the unity of Catholic and Orthodox Churches. My thoughts wandered back to this forum. The flame wars here discouraged me but in the end I decided that I will pray for this cause because it is just.
Back to the topic at hand:
The question is not whether the norm of some archaic code allows this but what is the meaning of this practice. In defining the litis contestanionis of the question, the controversy in this case is not the iconographers' code what is the place of the devotion to the Mother of God, the Virgin Mary in the Church.

The Church divides itself in faithful servants of the Mother of God and faithful servants of the Antichrist. Those who denigrate the Virgin Mother of God's dignity are the servants of the Antichrist.

Don't you  in poland follow a questionable Divine mercy apparition....When will the catholics in poland ,France,Portugal medjugorije ,or where ever the talking apparitions appeared stop accepting there guidance ignore them and rebuke them...And accept what we  received from the Holy Fathers faith once delivered unto salvation...We don't want spooks phantoms specters ghost, demons,or what ever giving us alternative ways to salvation that will lead us astay to damnation...Unknown to the holy Fathers faith once delivered... ;D

This kind of trash talk against aspects of legitimate Catholic spirituality and devotions should be barred from this part of the Forum.  Keep it to some other section.   Unless this is the real reason for having this section of the Forum?....I would hate to think so but this kind of post happens all too frequently and is not really ever stopped, in such a way that it becomes apparent to all members that it is not appropriate behavior on the Catholic section of the Forum.

M.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2010, 07:45:29 AM »
Do you really think that our non-Chalcedonian Churches would follow the lead of the schismatics that came after us?

 Where do all the pictures of Christ as a blue-eyed white man come from?



Gifts from Europeans which are graciously accepted. Our Church is not racist. But in creating her own iconography, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is not seeking to emulate Catholic tradition.


Selam
""Love is a dangerous thing. It will crush you if you trust it. But without it you can never be whole. Love crucifies, but love saves. We will either be saved together with love, or damned alone without it."    Selam, +GMK+

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2010, 08:53:35 AM »
Don't you  in poland follow a questionable Divine mercy apparition....When will the catholics in poland ,France,Portugal medjugorije ,or where ever the talking apparitions appeared stop accepting there guidance ignore them and rebuke them...And accept what we  received from the Holy Fathers faith once delivered unto salvation...We don't want spooks phantoms specters ghost, demons,or what ever giving us alternative ways to salvation that will lead us astay to damnation...Unknown to the holy Fathers faith once delivered... ;D
Our belief in the Mother of God, the Virgin Mary is older than these aforementioned apparitions.
The two most popular icons of the Mother God which are venerated in Catholic Poland are also venerated by Orthodox. These icons are the Bogurodzica from Jasna Góra and the Ostrobramska  Mother of God. These icons are a huge part of our national religious heritage, the copies of these icons have followed us when Poles moved West and East.  

Ostrobramska icon
http://sklep.cerkiew.pl/product_info.php?cPath=40_44_47_55&products_id=325
Jasnogórska/ Częstochowska Bogurodzica
http://sklep.cerkiew.pl/product_info.php?products_id=2249
A miracle is a break within the time continuum. It is an event which destroys all our rational routines and logical actions. It is a time when the grace of God acts directly and causes mayhem to our orderly, rational, logical schemes of thought. In the Gospels, there is an account of the healing of a lunatic, whose demons asked Christ if they could go into the swine. Christ allowed them to enter into the swine. After this, the demented swine herd  ran over a precipice. The local villagers then asked Christ to leave their country and never come back. You display a similar attitude.


You put my limited response to Stashko to shame. 

Very nicely done!!

Mary

Offline theistgal

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2010, 01:47:20 PM »
hmm ... it was the Divine Mercy Chaplet (based on Blessed Faustina's vision) which first introduced me, albeit indirectly, to the Divine Liturgy ... I'd never before heard that "Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal" prayer and wanted to find out more.

And interesting that Blessed Faustina knew of it.  Wonder if she ever attended a DL in Poland?
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Offline mike

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2010, 03:15:21 PM »

And interesting that Blessed Faustina knew of it.  Wonder if she ever attended a DL in Poland?

Maybe Michał Sopoćko told her about the schismatics he encountered in Białystok?
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Icons with Crowns
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2010, 03:40:25 PM »
(shrug) If so, he told her in an approving way, since she obviously knew and loved the prayer.

I have read some of the excerpts from her diary - she seems to have been a very well-grounded young woman with a deep love for Christ. Whatever the deal was with her vision of Christ, I don't think it's helpful to simply dismiss it as "spooks" (stashko, I'm lookin' at you! ;D ).
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)