Sleeper, why do respond with ad hominem attacks on me? Do you not care about the people you offend who are supposed to be your brothers in the One True Church?!
My anger is not towards you but the arguments you make for the Western Rite as it exists in AOA and the Modernist/Liberal ideas behind several of them.
Such passionate opinions! You'd think the Antiochian Archdiocese would've chose you to form the Western Rite Commission!
Why do you think I am "passionate"? It is because the view you've imposed on the True Faith cannot include me as I have no Eastern or Western Mind. Why do say "I should know what you mean" when it comes to Racial/Cultural arguments? It is vulgar racialism to state that Liturgies are products of culture that are better for one culture or another. You should be more open to what I am saying being the in the Western Rite which the Roman Catholics successfully spread BEFORE Vatican II all over the world to different cultures and races on all populated continents! They spread the Tridentine Latin Mass to Africans and Chinese! One of the most prominent young members of SSPX, Traditionalist Roman Catholics, in the Kansas City Area is a Chinese-American! Frankly I have grown up in the "West" and I the feeling that other Rites are "too foreign" is simply superficiality at best and xenophobia at it's worst.
Oh, I had no idea you had the gift of clairvoyance! Your ability to know the thoughts and motives of every Anglican and Roman Catholic convert is truly astonishing. Truly though, this exposes your lack of understanding in to what really went into the Antiochian Western Rites. Best to not speak of things you aren't aware of.
Oh, and I had no idea that you knew all of the people in the Western Rite and verified that I am completely mistaken in my argument!
How am I not aware of any of this? You don't even know me.
When did I say that it was everyone in the Western Rite who I was describing?!
I have several family members and friends who became Traditionalist Roman Catholics because they want the "good Ol' Latin Mass" again.
Several of the people who got the Western Rite going were Anglo-Catholics who were nostalgic for the old days and after being dismayed at the course Anglicanism took during the Twentieth Century and studying and drawing closer to Orthodoxy converted but wanted the Anglican Mass they were comfortable with! This is common knowledge not me making things up!
Also I have corresponded with many in the Western Rite over the past five years and was friends for several years with a former member of St.Augustines in Denver! He moved to Iowa City, IA to and taught at the University of IA attending the mission parish, St.Raphael of Brooklyn, that I did for several years. He told me that he and many others were partially motivated by a desire for the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II but also were interested in Orthodoxy and wanted the Tridentine Mass with the ld Rubrics but served in English.
Again, I'm so thrilled that we've finally found someone who knows what the "real Western Orthodox Rites" are; please, email Met. PHILIP and let him know so his sheep stop using non-Orthodox rites! And please, say a prayer to St. Tikhon letting him know he was out of his mind in even considering the Anglican communion service!
This is just plain rude!
Met.Philip is not the most reputable bishop in terms of professing the Orthodox Faith or being familiar with the history of the Church in the West before the Schism, and has historically been more interested in "modernizing" the American AOA and amassing more and more converts by not requiring them to renounce and denounce their former heresies and profess the Orthodox Church as the One, True, Ark outside of which their is no Salvation.
Yes, the heretical Latins. And "the West" is not a race. It's a culture, and if you know anything about rites, you'd know that culture is what produced them.
Saying that culture produced the Rites is not True or Orthodox. The Churches guided by God the Holy Spirit developed the differences between the Rites guided by God not by the culture of the people. The differences developed as means to better convert and transform the people/culture. Read the Fathers, such as St.Basil, you would know that the Liturgy is of Apostolic origin and much about the Rites/Celebration of the Mysteries were intentionally cloaked in Silence so that the cultures and common people could not alter and corrupt them according to their passions.
Heretical Latins did alter the rubrics and rites of the West.
Where were all the pews and kneelers before the 16th Century? Prostrations and bows were always a part of the Church in the West before the Great Schism of 1054 and even after the Latin Heresy for hundreds of years.
Ideally, every culture would have their own indigenous rite.
This is an insane idea! There is nothing specifically Greek about the Greek Rite nor does it express their culture! What elements of pre-Christian Hellenic culture can you find in the Greek Rite other than language? What is Western, culturally, about the Mass of St.Gregory the Great?
Cultures do not need indigenous rites! This is a heretical idea from the Vatican II spirit of reform.
Because there is nothing magical about 1054 and you can feel free to compare the rites yourself; what I say is indeed true. There is not one element of the approved Antiochian liturgies that does not find its roots in the pre-Schism West, thanks be to God.
And it's funny that you mention rubrics, because that is one of the main reasons we don't
use the ancient rites; it's not clear what they were.
They express our Orthodox Faith not our culture! The Liturgy was given by God for the Church. Man must conform himself to God NOT the other way around. We do not fashion and mold the Liturgy according to our needs! Whatever condescenions the Church allows to the people, such as liturgical reforms, is under the guidance of God the Holy Spirit. The West, the Latins/Roman Catholics, ceased to be the Church so whatever lilturgical changes were made were not guided by the Holy Spirit and couldn't be said to have come from God nor could they be legitimate for Orthodox Christians.
I think Fr. John Meyendorff says it well, "Orthodox must witness to the authentic catholicity of the Church, its mission to all, its responsibility for saving the world, and its ability to assume and bless whatever is worth saving, especially when that assumption leads to the salvation of many."
I totally agree with this! But what many Orthodox disagree with is how much and what, if any, of the Western Rites of the early Twentieth Century should be/can be assumed into the Church?
You cannot save people if they do not truly convert to the Church and disavow heresy and a way of life and worshipping that are expressions of that former heresy.
Additionally Fr.Meyendorff was not a truly Orthodox Theologian and even fellow Ecumenist theologian Romanides has proven his theology to at times be blatantly false and often more in line with the theology of the Roman Catholic Church post-Vatican II.
Brother I don't know how old you are, how long you've been Orthodox, etc.
You can clearly see my age in my profile. I'm 27, I'm a Father & Husband whose been Orthodox for almost seven years. None of what I wrote previously was rude or ad hominem against you!
Please at the very least extend me the same courtesy.
I am a father & husband so I don't forsee that I will be able to keep up with the back and forth posting everyday but before I duck out for possibly a few days or more let me just request a few things.
Pray for me and my family as I pray for yours, with no condescension nor anger nor dislike.
If you ever move to an area where there are only Eastern Rite Churches will you still attend Church with the same piety and devotion for Christ? It may take time for you but I really think you would be surprised to find that with time you will no longer find it foreign to bow and kiss icons and make prostrations.
It would take an essay for me to really respond to the ideas that you hold/have been taught, Sleeper, about the Liturgy and culture. I can't point to any book or essay off the top of my head but please stay open to the views and arguments of people you disagree with and recognize yourself as Orthodox and dedicate yourself to having an Orthodox Mindset. If the Western Mind is anything today it is certainly not Orthodox!
Lastly, I want to recommend this excellent book which shows that the Novus Ordo Mass being the work of liberal reform not any kind of legitimate traditional reform.The Problem of the Liturgical Reform: A Theological and Liturgical Study
by Bishop Fellayhttp://www.sspx.org/books/problem%20of%20the%20liturgical%20reform.pdf
I'm sorry I didn't address all arguments and people posting.
I will try to later but I can forsee coming back and finding thirty new posts!