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Author Topic: Western Rite ROCOR?  (Read 10587 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2010, 10:39:19 PM »

All these so called Western rite Orthodox Churches Are schisms Just waiting to Happen...
Why Is Holy Orthodoxy Doing this ....I'm totally Against western rite Orthodox Churches....
These so called western rite didn't work for the people then ,so why revive  these failed rites...

Rome Got rid Of it's so called Older rites and went modern and it still didn't work Scandals were hidden under the old rites ...scandals everywhere and revealed after they introduced the new rite..,and England Has its own rite ,like that did it a Lotta Good ,Look whats happening to the church of England...

              Why oh why revive dead rites ,they should remain buried.....Because By there Fruits you Shall Know them ....
                                                      In My Book all western rites produce nothing but Bad Fruit....



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« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2010, 10:41:40 PM »

I have met people of western traditions that were interested in Orthodoxy, but found the Eastern liturgy a bit too foreign.

How do you think the Filipinos or Mayans felt when they first encountered the Latin mass?
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« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2010, 10:47:53 PM »

stashko, isn't your own Serbian Orthodox church on the brink of schism?  People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Cheesy
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« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2010, 10:53:58 PM »

stashko, isn't your own Serbian Orthodox church on the brink of schism?  People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Cheesy

If it ever comes to that , Ill  stick, with non ecumenism  Serbian Group....That's all ...I don't mind if they spit....I really don't...If it will cure the Cancer of Ecumenism....So be it...
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« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2010, 10:57:31 PM »

I have met people of western traditions that were interested in Orthodoxy, but found the Eastern liturgy a bit too foreign.

How do you think the Filipinos or Mayans felt when they first encountered the Latin mass?
First off, the Filipinos had no Mass neither did the Mayans nor the Aztecs. They were not Christianized yet so they had nothing to compare it to. The Aztecs were into human sacrifice so I think the Latin Mass was God sent. I speak for myself since I was born in that part of the world. I am glad the conquistadores brought Catholicism to the New World.

Your question baffles me because you are speaking of pagans encountering a Christian liturgical rite. I was speaking of Christians of a western tradition encountering the Byzantine Rite.

 

« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 11:09:11 PM by ChristusDominus » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2010, 11:02:13 PM »

All these so called Western rite Orthodox Churches Are schisms Just waiting to Happen...
Why Is Holy Orthodoxy Doing this ....I'm totally Against western rite Orthodox Churches....
These so called western rites didn't work for the people then ,so why revive  these failed rites...

Rome Got rid Of it's so called Older rites and went modern and it still didn't work Scandals were hidden under the old rites ...scandals everywhere and revealed after they introduced the new rite..,and England Has its own rite ,like that did it a Lotta Good ,Look whats happening to the church of England...

              Why oh why revive dead rites ,they should remain buried.....Because By there Fruits you Shall Know them ....
                                                      In My Book all western rites produce nothing but Bad Fruit....


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« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2010, 11:09:37 PM »

stashko, isn't your own Serbian Orthodox church on the brink of schism?  People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Cheesy

The Serbian Church has been under stress because of ecumenism for 40 years.  One has only to recall the tension between Saint Justin Popovich and Patriarch German on this matter.  With the Serbian Church there have been and still are, bishops who want to be involved with ecumenical dialogue and bishops who do not.  This is an ongoing tension within the Serbian Synod.

Whether it will lead to schism is a moot point.  I believe the Serbian bishops are too astute to allow that to happen.  They would be horrified at splitting the flock of Saint Sava.  Without a doubt his prayers and his fatherly guidance are with them.  They also have the prayers of Saint Justin supporting them all from heaven.  Although he was emphatically opposed to ecumenism he refused, again and again, to go into schism at the times when some of his disciples urged him to.  He saw schism as a great evil.
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« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2010, 12:13:05 AM »

Lenexa, I meant no harm my friend.  I didn't think you'd take sarcasm personally, so I genuinely apologize.  We clearly don't see eye to eye on this, and I won't bother addressing all your points as you're busy and won't likely be able to read through my replies.  But you quite honestly have some gross misunderstandings of what the Antiochian Western Rite is all about, so I would also encourage you to do further research, if you feel so inclined.  But I'm just curious, what has the Novus Ordo Mass to do with our conversation?

Converts need to take great care to fully convert no matter what rite they participate in.  Rites do not determine Orthodoxy.

Iconodule, nobody "sat down" and determined anything.  In St. Tikhon's time, people genuinely wanted to become Orthodox, but the Orthodox parishes that existed were in no position to bring them in.  They weren't service manuals in English until 1906, but even then, how widespread could they have been?  You would turn away people from the Ark of Salvation simply because of your Eastern Rite puritanism?  Glory be to God that St. Tikhon was not an Orthodox fundamentalist and had a proper understanding of the role and nature of a liturgical rite.  His prayers have been answered.

Stashko, I'm new here so I haven't seen you post yet, but I can already tell I'm going to like you.  Fundamentalism is always entertaining!
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« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2010, 12:43:34 AM »

All these so called Western rite Orthodox Churches Are schisms Just waiting to Happen...
Why Is Holy Orthodoxy Doing this ....I'm totally Against western rite Orthodox Churches....
These so called western rite didn't work for the people then ,so why revive  these failed rites...

Rome Got rid Of it's so called Older rites and went modern and it still didn't work Scandals were hidden under the old rites ...scandals everywhere and revealed after they introduced the new rite..,and England Has its own rite ,like that did it a Lotta Good ,Look whats happening to the church of England...

              Why oh why revive dead rites ,they should remain buried.....Because By there Fruits you Shall Know them ....
                                                      In My Book all western rites produce nothing but Bad Fruit....



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« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2010, 01:17:17 AM »


If you don't like my post ,Ignore them .......I have my opinions ,you may not like them  , Get over it ....... Grin


All these so called Western rite Orthodox Churches Are schisms Just waiting to Happen...
Why Is Holy Orthodoxy Doing this ....I'm totally Against western rite Orthodox Churches....
These so called western rite didn't work for the people then ,so why revive  these failed rites...

Rome Got rid Of it's so called Older rites and went modern and it still didn't work Scandals were hidden under the old rites ...scandals everywhere and revealed after they introduced the new rite..,and England Has its own rite ,like that did it a Lotta Good ,Look whats happening to the church of England...

              Why oh why revive dead rites ,they should remain buried.....Because By there Fruits you Shall Know them ....
                                                      In My Book all western rites produce nothing but Bad Fruit....



Not stashko again!


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« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2010, 01:25:01 AM »

All these so called Western rite Orthodox Churches Are schisms Just waiting to Happen...
Why Is Holy Orthodoxy Doing this ....I'm totally Against western rite Orthodox Churches....
These so called western rite didn't work for the people then ,so why revive  these failed rites...

Rome Got rid Of it's so called Older rites and went modern and it still didn't work Scandals were hidden under the old rites ...scandals everywhere and revealed after they introduced the new rite..,and England Has its own rite ,like that did it a Lotta Good ,Look whats happening to the church of England...

              Why oh why revive dead rites ,they should remain buried.....Because By there Fruits you Shall Know them ....
                                                      In My Book all western rites produce nothing but Bad Fruit....



Not stashko again!


Good idea.
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« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2010, 01:25:24 AM »

If you don't like my post ,Ignore them .......I have my opinions ,you may not like them  , Get over it ....... Grin





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« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2010, 01:26:14 AM »

Fundamentalism is always entertaining!

Nothing wrong with sticking to the fundamental elements of the faith. The issue is when these get confused with non-fundamentals.
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« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2010, 01:29:16 AM »

laugh  laugh  laugh
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« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2010, 01:29:54 AM »

Awww, those were so perfect, why'd you take them down?
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« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2010, 06:35:06 AM »

I have met people of western traditions that were interested in Orthodoxy, but found the Eastern liturgy a bit too foreign.

How do you think the Filipinos or Mayans felt when they first encountered the Latin mass?
First off, the Filipinos had no Mass neither did the Mayans nor the Aztecs. They were not Christianized yet so they had nothing to compare it to. The Aztecs were into human sacrifice so I think the Latin Mass was God sent. I speak for myself since I was born in that part of the world. I am glad the conquistadores brought Catholicism to the New World.

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.
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« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2010, 09:16:28 AM »

I have met people of western traditions that were interested in Orthodoxy, but found the Eastern liturgy a bit too foreign.

How do you think the Filipinos or Mayans felt when they first encountered the Latin mass?
First off, the Filipinos had no Mass neither did the Mayans nor the Aztecs. They were not Christianized yet so they had nothing to compare it to. The Aztecs were into human sacrifice so I think the Latin Mass was God sent. I speak for myself since I was born in that part of the world. I am glad the conquistadores brought Catholicism to the New World.

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.

Except they are worshiping the same God. Who would want to be apart of a church that proclaims cultural superiority? I think I've heard of groups like that.
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« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2010, 09:57:24 AM »

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.

First of all, Orthodoxy doesn't have a rite, it has several.  Secondly, the Western rites of Christendom were Orthodox for over 1,000 years.  They were as Orthodox as anything in the East was or is.  They too were expressions of "the true faith."  And Western Christians who know that Orthodoxy is the Mother Church simply want to worship according to the tradition that nurtured the saints of the West, which happens to be their own cultural and spiritual heritage.  It's really that simple.

If anyone turned away from Orthodoxy because of it's foreign rites, then that is the fault of Orthodox Churches for not recognizing their true catholicity and rejecting their own tradition and heritage (as stashko enjoys doing).  Anyone who turned away did so because they knew their own heritage was part of the Mother Church for over 70% of Her life and there wasn't any reason why they shouldn't be allowed to continue to use them, once any falsities were corrected or removed.

Anyone seriously interested in joining Orthodoxy would join the Eastern Rite if that's what was available in their area, otherwise, they really aren't truthful.  But you cannot insist that everyone who sees the beauty in Orthodoxy reclaiming such a rich heritage of its past is somehow only doing so because they don't like the Eastern Rite.  That's absurd.  I can tell you flat out that if I had to relocate and all that was there was a Ukrainian Church that didn't even use English, that's where I'd be.  And any other Western Rite parishioner I know would do the same.

The motive behind the Western Rite is not a reaction to the Eastern Rite, it is a desire to redeem the Orthodoxy that is already present in their own heritage.  Why do so many insist on fighting that?  I believe it breaks Christ's heart.
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« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2010, 11:00:15 AM »

Just wondering, are there any WRO churches in Southern CA, or plans for any?
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« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2010, 11:12:03 AM »

Just wondering, are there any WRO churches in Southern CA, or plans for any?

Yes, there is one: http://www.stmichaelwhittier.org
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« Reply #65 on: October 22, 2010, 12:50:28 PM »

I have met people of western traditions that were interested in Orthodoxy, but found the Eastern liturgy a bit too foreign.

How do you think the Filipinos or Mayans felt when they first encountered the Latin mass?
First off, the Filipinos had no Mass neither did the Mayans nor the Aztecs. They were not Christianized yet so they had nothing to compare it to. The Aztecs were into human sacrifice so I think the Latin Mass was God sent. I speak for myself since I was born in that part of the world. I am glad the conquistadores brought Catholicism to the New World.

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.

Except they are worshiping the same God. Who would want to be apart of a church that proclaims cultural superiority? I think I've heard of groups like that.

No one is proclaiming "cultural superiority." The Byzantine rite is not culturally superior to the various Western rites. It just happens to be living, while they are dead.
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« Reply #66 on: October 22, 2010, 12:52:54 PM »

I have met people of western traditions that were interested in Orthodoxy, but found the Eastern liturgy a bit too foreign.

How do you think the Filipinos or Mayans felt when they first encountered the Latin mass?
First off, the Filipinos had no Mass neither did the Mayans nor the Aztecs. They were not Christianized yet so they had nothing to compare it to. The Aztecs were into human sacrifice so I think the Latin Mass was God sent. I speak for myself since I was born in that part of the world. I am glad the conquistadores brought Catholicism to the New World.

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.

Except they are worshiping the same God. Who would want to be apart of a church that proclaims cultural superiority? I think I've heard of groups like that.

No one is proclaiming "cultural superiority." The Byzantine rite is not culturally superior to the various Western rites. It just happens to be living, while they are dead.

How so?
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« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2010, 12:58:28 PM »

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.

First of all, Orthodoxy doesn't have a rite, it has several.  Secondly, the Western rites of Christendom were Orthodox for over 1,000 years.  They were as Orthodox as anything in the East was or is.  They too were expressions of "the true faith."  And Western Christians who know that Orthodoxy is the Mother Church simply want to worship according to the tradition that nurtured the saints of the West, which happens to be their own cultural and spiritual heritage.  It's really that simple.

Unless you are about 1000 years old and were part of the Orthodox Church in the West, it is not your heritage. This is just fantasy roleplaying. The "West" of today is simply not the West of the first millenium.

Quote
Anyone seriously interested in joining Orthodoxy would join the Eastern Rite if that's what was available in their area, otherwise, they really aren't truthful.

Exactly.

Quote
But you cannot insist that everyone who sees the beauty in Orthodoxy reclaiming such a rich heritage of its past is somehow only doing so because they don't like the Eastern Rite.

Yes, there are other reasons too- phyletism, cultural chauvinism, pride, a consumer's sense of entitlement ("I am an American so I should have access to x number of options"), reading too many Arthurian legends, playing too much D&D, etc. There seems to be a sense among some Orthodox (AKA the "knowbetterdox") that, just because you can dig something up in your academic research, that you are thereby entitled to experiment with it in your local parish.

Quote
The motive behind the Western Rite is not a reaction to the Eastern Rite, it is a desire to redeem the Orthodoxy that is already present in their own heritage.  

Just because one of your ancestors hundreds of years ago may have been Western Orthodox doesn't make it your heritage. My father and many of my ancestors were Roman Catholic but, having never been raised RC, I can't claim RCism is my heritage.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 01:09:05 PM by Iconodule » Logged

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« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2010, 01:00:10 PM »

I have met people of western traditions that were interested in Orthodoxy, but found the Eastern liturgy a bit too foreign.

How do you think the Filipinos or Mayans felt when they first encountered the Latin mass?
First off, the Filipinos had no Mass neither did the Mayans nor the Aztecs. They were not Christianized yet so they had nothing to compare it to. The Aztecs were into human sacrifice so I think the Latin Mass was God sent. I speak for myself since I was born in that part of the world. I am glad the conquistadores brought Catholicism to the New World.

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.

Except they are worshiping the same God. Who would want to be apart of a church that proclaims cultural superiority? I think I've heard of groups like that.

No one is proclaiming "cultural superiority." The Byzantine rite is not culturally superior to the various Western rites. It just happens to be living, while they are dead.

How so?

Because no one uses the old Western Rites anymore. A modern reconstruction based on Cranmer doesn't count.
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« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2010, 01:10:10 PM »

Because no one uses the old Western Rites anymore. A modern reconstruction based on Cranmer doesn't count.

Does Sarum count? Does Mt. Royal (based mostly on old Roman and Lyon rites) count?
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« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2010, 01:13:34 PM »

I have met people of western traditions that were interested in Orthodoxy, but found the Eastern liturgy a bit too foreign.

How do you think the Filipinos or Mayans felt when they first encountered the Latin mass?
First off, the Filipinos had no Mass neither did the Mayans nor the Aztecs. They were not Christianized yet so they had nothing to compare it to. The Aztecs were into human sacrifice so I think the Latin Mass was God sent. I speak for myself since I was born in that part of the world. I am glad the conquistadores brought Catholicism to the New World.

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.

Except they are worshiping the same God. Who would want to be apart of a church that proclaims cultural superiority? I think I've heard of groups like that.

No one is proclaiming "cultural superiority." The Byzantine rite is not culturally superior to the various Western rites. It just happens to be living, while they are dead.

How so?

Because no one uses the old Western Rites anymore. A modern reconstruction based on Cranmer doesn't count.

Fortunately, that's a fallacy. Many are still used. Despite your desires, Western Rites are a valid method of worshiping God.
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« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2010, 01:17:39 PM »

I have met people of western traditions that were interested in Orthodoxy, but found the Eastern liturgy a bit too foreign.

How do you think the Filipinos or Mayans felt when they first encountered the Latin mass?
First off, the Filipinos had no Mass neither did the Mayans nor the Aztecs. They were not Christianized yet so they had nothing to compare it to. The Aztecs were into human sacrifice so I think the Latin Mass was God sent. I speak for myself since I was born in that part of the world. I am glad the conquistadores brought Catholicism to the New World.

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.

Except they are worshiping the same God. Who would want to be apart of a church that proclaims cultural superiority? I think I've heard of groups like that.

No one is proclaiming "cultural superiority." The Byzantine rite is not culturally superior to the various Western rites. It just happens to be living, while they are dead.

How so?

Because no one uses the old Western Rites anymore. A modern reconstruction based on Cranmer doesn't count.

Does the Holy Spirit come down and sanctify the Holy Gifts at a Western Rite Orthodox liturgy? If so, then what's the question?
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« Reply #72 on: October 22, 2010, 01:32:08 PM »

I have met people of western traditions that were interested in Orthodoxy, but found the Eastern liturgy a bit too foreign.

How do you think the Filipinos or Mayans felt when they first encountered the Latin mass?
First off, the Filipinos had no Mass neither did the Mayans nor the Aztecs. They were not Christianized yet so they had nothing to compare it to. The Aztecs were into human sacrifice so I think the Latin Mass was God sent. I speak for myself since I was born in that part of the world. I am glad the conquistadores brought Catholicism to the New World.

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.

Except they are worshiping the same God. Who would want to be apart of a church that proclaims cultural superiority? I think I've heard of groups like that.

No one is proclaiming "cultural superiority." The Byzantine rite is not culturally superior to the various Western rites. It just happens to be living, while they are dead.

How so?

Because no one uses the old Western Rites anymore. A modern reconstruction based on Cranmer doesn't count.

Does the Holy Spirit come down and sanctify the Holy Gifts at a Western Rite Orthodox liturgy? If so, then what's the question?

This is the same attitude that brought clown masses and liturgical dancers to the RCC.
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« Reply #73 on: October 22, 2010, 01:33:06 PM »

I have met people of western traditions that were interested in Orthodoxy, but found the Eastern liturgy a bit too foreign.

How do you think the Filipinos or Mayans felt when they first encountered the Latin mass?
First off, the Filipinos had no Mass neither did the Mayans nor the Aztecs. They were not Christianized yet so they had nothing to compare it to. The Aztecs were into human sacrifice so I think the Latin Mass was God sent. I speak for myself since I was born in that part of the world. I am glad the conquistadores brought Catholicism to the New World.

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.

Except they are worshiping the same God. Who would want to be apart of a church that proclaims cultural superiority? I think I've heard of groups like that.

No one is proclaiming "cultural superiority." The Byzantine rite is not culturally superior to the various Western rites. It just happens to be living, while they are dead.

How so?

Because no one uses the old Western Rites anymore. A modern reconstruction based on Cranmer doesn't count.

Does the Holy Spirit come down and sanctify the Holy Gifts at a Western Rite Orthodox liturgy? If so, then what's the question?

This is the same attitude that brought clown masses and liturgical dancers to the RCC.

Riiiiiightt....

See, your real opinion is this. That is, you think nothing, but Byzantine culture can properly and reverently worship God. Liturgical dancers is a huge leap from using Latin.
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« Reply #74 on: October 22, 2010, 01:37:52 PM »

I have met people of western traditions that were interested in Orthodoxy, but found the Eastern liturgy a bit too foreign.

How do you think the Filipinos or Mayans felt when they first encountered the Latin mass?
First off, the Filipinos had no Mass neither did the Mayans nor the Aztecs. They were not Christianized yet so they had nothing to compare it to. The Aztecs were into human sacrifice so I think the Latin Mass was God sent. I speak for myself since I was born in that part of the world. I am glad the conquistadores brought Catholicism to the New World.

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.

Except they are worshiping the same God. Who would want to be apart of a church that proclaims cultural superiority? I think I've heard of groups like that.

No one is proclaiming "cultural superiority." The Byzantine rite is not culturally superior to the various Western rites. It just happens to be living, while they are dead.

How so?

Because no one uses the old Western Rites anymore. A modern reconstruction based on Cranmer doesn't count.

Does the Holy Spirit come down and sanctify the Holy Gifts at a Western Rite Orthodox liturgy? If so, then what's the question?

This is the same attitude that brought clown masses and liturgical dancers to the RCC.

Riiiiiightt....

See, your real opinion is this. That is, you think nothing, but Byzantine culture can properly and reverently worship God. Liturgical dancers is a huge leap from using Latin.

Strawman. I'm not referring to Latin or even Western rites. I'm referring to this attitude, "as long as the rite meets some minimal criteria for being 'valid', there's nothing to worry about." You had earlier voiced this notion with your "a Rite is just a glass" spiel.
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« Reply #75 on: October 22, 2010, 01:48:12 PM »

I have met people of western traditions that were interested in Orthodoxy, but found the Eastern liturgy a bit too foreign.

How do you think the Filipinos or Mayans felt when they first encountered the Latin mass?
First off, the Filipinos had no Mass neither did the Mayans nor the Aztecs. They were not Christianized yet so they had nothing to compare it to. The Aztecs were into human sacrifice so I think the Latin Mass was God sent. I speak for myself since I was born in that part of the world. I am glad the conquistadores brought Catholicism to the New World.

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.

Except they are worshiping the same God. Who would want to be apart of a church that proclaims cultural superiority? I think I've heard of groups like that.

No one is proclaiming "cultural superiority." The Byzantine rite is not culturally superior to the various Western rites. It just happens to be living, while they are dead.

How so?

Because no one uses the old Western Rites anymore. A modern reconstruction based on Cranmer doesn't count.

Fortunately, that's a fallacy. Many are still used. Despite your desires, Western Rites are a valid method of worshiping God.

Do these new rites come from a living transmission? No. It's nice to think about what the Western Orthodox did back in ye olden tymes, but the Church is not a LARP club.
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« Reply #76 on: October 22, 2010, 01:48:54 PM »

This is the same attitude that brought clown masses and liturgical dancers to the RCC.

Riiiiiightt....

See, your real opinion is this. That is, you think nothing, but Byzantine culture can properly and reverently worship God. Liturgical dancers is a huge leap from using Latin.

Strawman. I'm not referring to Latin or even Western rites. I'm referring to this attitude, "as long as the rite meets some minimal criteria for being 'valid', there's nothing to worry about."

We're talking about Western Rites here, it's in the name of the thread.

What is your minimum criteria? There's one for everything. Is it the Euchatist? Is it the prayers? The Chant/Music? The prostrations? The eastern food on Pascha?

You had earlier voiced this notion with your "a Rite is just a glass" spiel.

Correct, the Rite is just the glass. But if nothing is in it, then it's invalid! That's why the Novus Ordo Mass is being rewritten and rejected. Since you enjoy bringing up clown masses, but refuse to acknowledge that EVERYONE realizes this.
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« Reply #77 on: October 22, 2010, 01:52:42 PM »

Because no one uses the old Western Rites anymore. A modern reconstruction based on Cranmer doesn't count.

Fortunately, that's a fallacy. Many are still used. Despite your desires, Western Rites are a valid method of worshiping God.


Do these new rites come from a living transmission? No.

Yes. There may be some talk about liturgical archaeology, but in many cases, even Rite such as the Sarum Rite, it is still practiced so some extent.

It's nice to think about what the Western Orthodox did back in ye olden tymes, but the Church is not a LARP club.

For someone who insists that the Byzantine Rite is the only way, because it's ancient, that's a joke of a comment.

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« Reply #78 on: October 22, 2010, 01:58:00 PM »

We're talking about Western Rites here, it's in the name of the thread.

And I was responding to a specific comment that wasn't specifically connected to WR.

Quote
What is your minimum criteria?

I'm not the one dealing with minimum criteria here and talking about the rite as a "glass." Orthodoxy isn't about minimal criteria. God willing, we will always have beautiful, reverent rites, whether Western, Eastern, or other.  

Quote
Correct, the Rite is just the glass. But if nothing is in it, then it's invalid! That's why the Novus Ordo Mass is being rewritten and rejected.

That's wishful thinking- maybe you've been hanging around SSPX folks. Been to a mainstream RC mass lately? Sorry, no mainstream RC authority is going to recognize the NO as invalid.
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« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2010, 02:00:15 PM »

Yes. There may be some talk about liturgical archaeology, but in many cases, even Rite such as the Sarum Rite, it is still practiced so some extent.

Until recently, only by heretics, ie, severed, dead, and rotten branches. And in heavily modified forms.

Quote
For someone who insists that the Byzantine Rite is the only way, because it's ancient, that's a joke of a comment.

Another strawman? Really?
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« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2010, 02:03:39 PM »

We're talking about Western Rites here, it's in the name of the thread.

And I was responding to a specific comment that wasn't specifically connected to WR.

Quote
What is your minimum criteria?

I'm not the one dealing with minimum criteria here and talking about the rite as a "glass." Orthodoxy isn't about minimal criteria. God willing, we will always have beautiful, reverent rites, whether Western, Eastern, or other.  

Bull. If you have a problem with Western Rite, there is something in particular that's your cut off. Is is the language? Is it the length?

Other direction: What about the "Americanization" of the Byzantine Rite? When is it too different for you to be considered valid? The language? The prostrations? The music?

Quote
Correct, the Rite is just the glass. But if nothing is in it, then it's invalid! That's why the Novus Ordo Mass is being rewritten and rejected.

That's wishful thinking- maybe you've been hanging around SSPX folks. Been to a mainstream RC mass lately? Sorry, no mainstream RC authority is going to recognize the NO as invalid.

They don't have to call it invalid without making it clear of their intentions, when they are reinventing the wheel with the NO.

http://www.usccb.org/romanmissal/
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« Reply #81 on: October 22, 2010, 02:07:27 PM »

Yes. There may be some talk about liturgical archaeology, but in many cases, even Rite such as the Sarum Rite, it is still practiced so some extent.

Until recently, only by heretics, ie, severed, dead, and rotten branches. And in heavily modified forms.

Heretics is a very broad term coming from an Orthodox. Both the RC and the Anglicans still use Sarum Rite. Both of which, I'm sure, you'll call a heretic. Then again, only the West uses the Western Rites.. but they're all heretics... you sly dog you.



Quote
For someone who insists that the Byzantine Rite is the only way, because it's ancient, that's a joke of a comment.

Another strawman? Really?

You tell me. You like to call every other Rite besides your beloved Byzantine Rite invalid, purely because they're not Eastern, or use wafers, or whatever your reason is.
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« Reply #82 on: October 22, 2010, 02:13:12 PM »

We're talking about Western Rites here, it's in the name of the thread.

And I was responding to a specific comment that wasn't specifically connected to WR.

Quote
What is your minimum criteria?

I'm not the one dealing with minimum criteria here and talking about the rite as a "glass." Orthodoxy isn't about minimal criteria. God willing, we will always have beautiful, reverent rites, whether Western, Eastern, or other.  

Bull. If you have a problem with Western Rite, there is something in particular that's your cut off.

Nope. My "problems" are exactly the ones I named. It is possible for someone to take a stand for something other than his personal preferences and tastes, believe it or not. I actually find the Tridentine mass to be beautiful. I love many Western composers of sacred music- Palestrina, Desprez, Ockeghem, Tallis, etc. But they aren't Orthodox and there's no good reason to use them in an Orthodox parish.

Quote
Other direction: What about the "Americanization" of the Byzantine Rite? When is it too different for you to be considered valid? The language? The prostrations? The music?

What are you asking me to compare it with? On these particulars, there are already many variations in the "old countries." They're all fine to me, since they are organic outgrowths of a living tradition.  

Quote
They don't have to call it invalid without making it clear of their intentions, when they are reinventing the wheel with the NO.

So the RCC is now saying/ implying that several generations of RC's have been living with invalid masses and have never received the Eucharist? Please.
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« Reply #83 on: October 22, 2010, 02:15:12 PM »

You tell me. You like to call every other Rite besides your beloved Byzantine Rite invalid, purely because they're not Eastern, or use wafers, or whatever your reason is.

Please show me where I have ever said the WR is invalid. Please also show me where I have critiqued WR for the simple fact that it's "not Eastern", or asserted the superiority of the Eastern rite because it's "ancient". Where have I mentioned wafers?
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« Reply #84 on: October 22, 2010, 02:18:16 PM »

We're talking about Western Rites here, it's in the name of the thread.

And I was responding to a specific comment that wasn't specifically connected to WR.

Quote
What is your minimum criteria?

I'm not the one dealing with minimum criteria here and talking about the rite as a "glass." Orthodoxy isn't about minimal criteria. God willing, we will always have beautiful, reverent rites, whether Western, Eastern, or other.  

Bull. If you have a problem with Western Rite, there is something in particular that's your cut off.

Nope. My "problems" are exactly the ones I named. It is possible for someone to take a stand for something other than his personal preferences and tastes, believe it or not. I actually find the Tridentine mass to be beautiful. I love many Western composers of sacred music- Palestrina, Desprez, Ockeghem, Tallis, etc. But they aren't Orthodox and there's no good reason to use them in an Orthodox parish.

You're killing me, Smalls. You're using very broad terminology.

Why are they not Orthodox?

Quote
Other direction: What about the "Americanization" of the Byzantine Rite? When is it too different for you to be considered valid? The language? The prostrations? The music?

What are you asking me to compare it with? On these particulars, there are already many variations in the "old countries." They're all fine to me, since they are organic outgrowths of a living tradition.  

I'm desperately trying to find out what makes something Orthodox, and what is not, for you.

Quote
They don't have to call it invalid without making it clear of their intentions, when they are reinventing the wheel with the NO.

So the RCC is now saying/ implying that several generations of RC's have been living with invalid masses and have never received the Eucharist? Please.

Say whatever you will of it, but they are changing the Mass for a reason.
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« Reply #85 on: October 22, 2010, 02:24:52 PM »

You tell me. You like to call every other Rite besides your beloved Byzantine Rite invalid, purely because they're not Eastern, or use wafers, or whatever your reason is.

Please show me where I have ever said the WR is invalid. Please also show me where I have critiqued WR for the simple fact that it's "not Eastern", or asserted the superiority of the Eastern rite because it's "ancient". Where have I mentioned wafers?


Nope. My "problems" are exactly the ones I named. It is possible for someone to take a stand for something other than his personal preferences and tastes, believe it or not. I actually find the Tridentine mass to be beautiful. I love many Western composers of sacred music- Palestrina, Desprez, Ockeghem, Tallis, etc. But they aren't Orthodox and there's no good reason to use them in an Orthodox parish.

I don't know what you consider "not Orthodox", but in normal speak, that means invalid.

Does the Holy Spirit come down and sanctify the Holy Gifts at a Western Rite Orthodox liturgy? If so, then what's the question?
This is the same attitude that brought clown masses and liturgical dancers to the RCC.

If you think keeping the Western Rites will constitute a clown mass, then I'd call that invalid.

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.

If switching to the Byzantine Rite is switching to the "true faith", then keeping their old Rite would be keeping the "heretic faith".
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« Reply #86 on: October 22, 2010, 02:30:25 PM »

I don't know what you consider "not Orthodox", but in normal speak, that means invalid.

Excuse me, what do the Roman Catholic, post-schism composers that I listed have to do with Orthodoxy?

Quote
If you think keeping the Western Rites will constitute a clown mass, then I'd call that invalid.

Thankfully, I said no such thing.

Quote
If switching to the Byzantine Rite is switching to the "true faith"...

Thankfully, I said no such thing.
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« Reply #87 on: October 22, 2010, 02:33:43 PM »

Well, despite all my posts, I still am unable to get a reason for the Western Rites as being un-Orthodox. So, I'm left with what I think your true motives are. Have fun.
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« Reply #88 on: October 22, 2010, 02:38:18 PM »

Well, despite all my posts, I still am unable to get a reason for the Western Rites as being un-Orthodox.

Neither can I. I think the Orthodox Western Rites are really Orthodox.
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« Reply #89 on: October 22, 2010, 03:06:16 PM »

I have met people of western traditions that were interested in Orthodoxy, but found the Eastern liturgy a bit too foreign.

How do you think the Filipinos or Mayans felt when they first encountered the Latin mass?
First off, the Filipinos had no Mass neither did the Mayans nor the Aztecs. They were not Christianized yet so they had nothing to compare it to. The Aztecs were into human sacrifice so I think the Latin Mass was God sent. I speak for myself since I was born in that part of the world. I am glad the conquistadores brought Catholicism to the New World.

If these pagans could accept a completely foreign religion, including its foreign mass, then Western Christians have no excuse for rejecting Orthodox Christianity because its rite seems "foreign."  They are not just encountering a new rite but the true faith. If they are willing to turn away from the true faith because of their cultural hang-ups, then they're no better than pagans rejecting the Gospel.

Except they are worshiping the same God. Who would want to be apart of a church that proclaims cultural superiority? I think I've heard of groups like that.

No one is proclaiming "cultural superiority." The Byzantine rite is not culturally superior to the various Western rites. It just happens to be living, while they are dead.

How so?

Because no one uses the old Western Rites anymore. A modern reconstruction based on Cranmer doesn't count.

Does the Holy Spirit come down and sanctify the Holy Gifts at a Western Rite Orthodox liturgy? If so, then what's the question?

This is the same attitude that brought clown masses and liturgical dancers to the RCC.

That's hardly the case. It has been that criterion that has confirmed something's Orthodoxy. For example, when some people thought the New Calendar meant grace was lost, they saw the Holy Spirit come down  at a New Calendar liturgy.

There's a lot about the Western Rite in general that I have issues with, but, really, I don't have an issue with having a Western Rite at all. It's part of the heritage of the Orthodox Church. One can argue over how it's done, but the rites themselves, in the general sense, are Orthodox. What worked for Sts. Leo and Gregory and Benedict then still works now. There's no reason why, to be Orthodox, people have to follow the Costantinopolitan Rite. That's not how we did things for the first 1500 years of our history.
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