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Author Topic: Romania-Moldova-Ukraine-Ruthenia-Russia: Competing Claims, Church and State  (Read 11476 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« on: September 01, 2010, 07:46:15 PM »

But it is certainly not about comprehension. It's just that our dear brother Isa Al-Misry, being frustrated because of what he, an oddball, a half-Norvegian and half-Arab, and a former Evangelical Protestant, percieves as some kind of assault on his "tue Orthodoxy" from what he thinks are "Greek Philetists" (and other Philetists), pulls his half-witted "knowledge" of "history" (and just what THAT is...?), to "prove" that all "nationalism" is BAAAAAAD.  
O.K.  Thanks Heorhij.  Funnily that would explain the multitudinous and disjointed attacks on Ukrainians (i.e. well Russians want this part of Ukraine,  Romanians this part, Khrushchev - the only thing in common to any of this being the poster's negativity to things Ukrainian).  I almost thought he actually had something personal to explain his behavior or his anti-Ukrainian comments.
 Smiley

Although your ad hominem attacks against me personally have explained all Smiley, I'm going to nonetheless going to reply anyways.

Btw, Ukraine has Northern Bucovina, and the Romanians want it back, along with other territory that Khrushchev gave Ukraine.
I am not sure whether you are just misinformed, or whether you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts, but Romania has clearly stated that it has no territorial claims to Ukraine. (What many Romanian politicians do want, is to annex Moldova). Romanians in Ukraine have guaranteed minority rights, and both countries are fine with the current situation. (And so are Ukrainian Romanians themselves, because they make quite some money with smuggling Vodka and other things).
Ialmisry is just misinformed, probably: Romany and Ukraine have signed a "Basic Treaty" (Tratatul de baza romano-ucrainian) more than a decade ago (IIRC) by which all territorial claims were officially put to rest, except maybe, for the Snakes' Island.
He is "misinformed" in many other claims he is making, beginning from showing pictures from cartoonish Bolshevik propaganda and calling them "history."
ALL of Ukraine is within the canonically recognized boundaries of the Patriarchate of All Rus'
Can you give proof for this statement, please?
Really, I do not understand how people completely underlated to the question have so much contempt for Ukraine...
Yes.  Me too. Statements by some here like Romanians want Bukovyna "back" (sic) are not only factually incorrect but seem only to be aimed at denigrating Ukrainians and/or the Ukrainian state.  They are also absolutely unrelated to the OP as well.  Ukrainians, like many European nations in Eastern Europe, had to undergo "nation-building" so to speak without benefit of a state for some time.  This is true for many nations in Eastern Europe.  It doesn't matter to some however.  I am kinda still new here but am slightly surprised at the animosity of some posters to things Ukrainian, and find it hard to reconcile with Christian virtue or love.
I'm pressed for time right now, but since we're all h-bent on "being informed," I'll stop holding back, when I get back.  
I look forward to seeing more cartoons from the Bolshevik propaganda archives (like the storming of the Winter Palace by heroically-looking masses armed with rifles) and you calling them "history."  police

Well there was plenty of propoganda about Romania Mare "Greater Romania" when I was there in '93, when anything to do with borders or Ukrainians/Russians/Communists (many Romanians do not distinguish) brought up Northern Bucovina.  The Party by that name (Romania Mare) joined the government in that year, but left in '95, two years before the Romania-Ukraine treaty mentioned above was finalized.  Yet in 2000 Corneliu Vadim Tudor, its candidate for President, came in second with a third of the vote in the second round and a fifth of the seats of parliament, where it was the second largest party (he has fallen since then, a decline that settled in in part with leaving the Identity, Tradition, Sovereignty (ITS) group (leading to its demise) in the European Parliament, over remarks Il Duci's granddaugher Alessandra Mussolini made calling all Romanians (who see themselves as siblings of the Italians) criminals.

I have a map like this I got in '93:

except it had cultural attractions, landmarks, etc. marked instead of administrative divisions, in a cartoonish way: the Serpents Island, for instance, is exagerated. (Yes, that dispute went to the International Court of Justice, for the oil and gas underneath it (Russia is not the only oil and gas empire Roll Eyes) in 2009.  There is a hanging threat by Romania to sue Ukraine for sanctions over the Bystroye Channel near the Danube Delta. Both of Ukraine's claims are based on the unratified (by either side) treaty forced on Romania-then occupied by Soviet troops-in 1948). On the right is Historic Moldavia (i.e. the one the irrendentists want) in yellow, with the border written by Khrushchev in black.

The objects of your posts I've linked lie in the Hotin, Cernauti, and Storojineti districts for the most part., what Ukraine administers as the Chernivtsi oblast.  Hotin, as may be noticed, is part of Bessarabia, i.e. the Republic of Moldova of today, as are the Cetatea Alba and Izmail districts (which Ukraine administers as part of the Odessa oblast), at least before the Soviet Union took them and gave them to Ukraine.

And then there is Transnistria,
the base that the Soviet Union formed to claim the rest of Bessarabia: the Moldavian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Respublic (of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic), with its captial at the "temporarily occupied city of Kishinev" (Chişinău, where in 1917 the imperial governor turned over legal power to the Provissional Government of Bessarabia when Kerensky took power in Petrograd. A year later, after a failed Bolshevik coup and the Ukrainian declaration of independence, the National Assembly in Chişinău formed the independent Moldavian Democratic Republic. A few months later it procleimed its re-union with the Kingdom of Romania).

I include the map on the right to make Heorhij happy with Bolshevik propaganda: it shows the Soviet Unions' "claims" on Bessarbia in white. Bucovina, north or otherwise, let alone Herta, isn't shown: being occupied by Austria's Kaisser and not Russia's Czar, the U.S.S.R. made no claim until it took it, taking advantage of the  Molotov-Ribbentrop pact to even expand further on Soviet claims, which Ukraine now inherits.  Rather zealously.

This last region/republic may prove determinative, given Romanian-Republic of Moldova relations, the constitution of Romania declaring it a "unitary and indivisible National State" whose "national sovereignty shall reside within the Romanian people" "the common and indivisible homeland of all its citizens" and whose "territory...is inalienable," the constitution of the Republic of Moldavia descriibing it as a "unitary and indivisible state"  whose "territory is inalienable" "the common and indivisible motherland of all her citizens," and Ukraine's constituional beginning with "The sovereignty of Ukraine extends throughout its entire territory. Ukraine is a unitary state. The territory of Ukraine within its present border is indivisible and inviolable," and then declaring "The territorial structure of Ukraine is based on the principles of unity and indivisibility of the state territory" and "Ukraine is composed of...Odessa Oblast...Chernivtsi Oblast..."-all perhaps making this region determinative on the question raised on Ukraine and Romanian irredentism.

to be cont....
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 07:54:11 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2010, 08:06:11 PM »

But it is certainly not about comprehension. It's just that our dear brother Isa Al-Misry, being frustrated because of what he, an oddball, a half-Norvegian and half-Arab, and a former Evangelical Protestant, percieves as some kind of assault on his "tue Orthodoxy" from what he thinks are "Greek Philetists" (and other Philetists), pulls his half-witted "knowledge" of "history" (and just what THAT is...?), to "prove" that all "nationalism" is BAAAAAAD.  
O.K.  Thanks Heorhij.  Funnily that would explain the multitudinous and disjointed attacks on Ukrainians (i.e. well Russians want this part of Ukraine,  Romanians this part, Khrushchev - the only thing in common to any of this being the poster's negativity to things Ukrainian).  I almost thought he actually had something personal to explain his behavior or his anti-Ukrainian comments.
 Smiley

Although your ad hominem attacks against me personally have explained all Smiley, I'm going to nonetheless going to reply anyways.

Btw, Ukraine has Northern Bucovina, and the Romanians want it back, along with other territory that Khrushchev gave Ukraine.
I am not sure whether you are just misinformed, or whether you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts, but Romania has clearly stated that it has no territorial claims to Ukraine. (What many Romanian politicians do want, is to annex Moldova). Romanians in Ukraine have guaranteed minority rights, and both countries are fine with the current situation. (And so are Ukrainian Romanians themselves, because they make quite some money with smuggling Vodka and other things).
Ialmisry is just misinformed, probably: Romany and Ukraine have signed a "Basic Treaty" (Tratatul de baza romano-ucrainian) more than a decade ago (IIRC) by which all territorial claims were officially put to rest, except maybe, for the Snakes' Island.
He is "misinformed" in many other claims he is making, beginning from showing pictures from cartoonish Bolshevik propaganda and calling them "history."
ALL of Ukraine is within the canonically recognized boundaries of the Patriarchate of All Rus'
Can you give proof for this statement, please?
Really, I do not understand how people completely underlated to the question have so much contempt for Ukraine...
Yes.  Me too. Statements by some here like Romanians want Bukovyna "back" (sic) are not only factually incorrect but seem only to be aimed at denigrating Ukrainians and/or the Ukrainian state.  They are also absolutely unrelated to the OP as well.  Ukrainians, like many European nations in Eastern Europe, had to undergo "nation-building" so to speak without benefit of a state for some time.  This is true for many nations in Eastern Europe.  It doesn't matter to some however.  I am kinda still new here but am slightly surprised at the animosity of some posters to things Ukrainian, and find it hard to reconcile with Christian virtue or love.
I'm pressed for time right now, but since we're all h-bent on "being informed," I'll stop holding back, when I get back.  
I look forward to seeing more cartoons from the Bolshevik propaganda archives (like the storming of the Winter Palace by heroically-looking masses armed with rifles) and you calling them "history."  police

Well there was plenty of propoganda about Romania Mare "Greater Romania" when I was there in '93, when anything to do with borders or Ukrainians/Russians/Communists (many Romanians do not distinguish) brought up Northern Bucovina.  The Party by that name (Romania Mare) joined the government in that year, but left in '95, two years before the Romania-Ukraine treaty mentioned above was finalized.  Yet in 2000 Corneliu Vadim Tudor, its candidate for President, came in second with a third of the vote in the second round and a fifth of the seats of parliament, where it was the second largest party (he has fallen since then, a decline that settled in in part with leaving the Identity, Tradition, Sovereignty (ITS) group (leading to its demise) in the European Parliament, over remarks Il Duci's granddaugher Alessandra Mussolini made calling all Romanians (who see themselves as siblings of the Italians) criminals.

I have a map like this I got in '93:

except it had cultural attractions, landmarks, etc. marked instead of administrative divisions, in a cartoonish way: the Serpents Island, for instance, is exagerated. (Yes, that dispute went to the International Court of Justice, for the oil and gas underneath it (Russia is not the only oil and gas empire Roll Eyes) in 2009.  There is a hanging threat by Romania to sue Ukraine for sanctions over the Bystroye Channel near the Danube Delta. Both of Ukraine's claims are based on the unratified (by either side) treaty forced on Romania-then occupied by Soviet troops-in 1948). On the right is Historic Moldavia (i.e. the one the irrendentists want) in yellow, with the border written by Khrushchev in black.

The objects of your posts I've linked lie in the Hotin, Cernauti, and Storojineti districts for the most part., what Ukraine administers as the Chernivtsi oblast.  Hotin, as may be noticed, is part of Bessarabia, i.e. the Republic of Moldova of today, as are the Cetatea Alba and Izmail districts (which Ukraine administers as part of the Odessa oblast), at least before the Soviet Union took them and gave them to Ukraine.

And then there is Transnistria,
the base that the Soviet Union formed to claim the rest of Bessarabia: the Moldavian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Respublic (of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic), with its captial at the "temporarily occupied city of Kishinev" (Chişinău, where in 1917 the imperial governor turned over legal power to the Provissional Government of Bessarabia when Kerensky took power in Petrograd. A year later, after a failed Bolshevik coup and the Ukrainian declaration of independence, the National Assembly in Chişinău formed the independent Moldavian Democratic Republic. A few months later it procleimed its re-union with the Kingdom of Romania).

I include the map on the right to make Heorhij happy with Bolshevik propaganda: it shows the Soviet Unions' "claims" on Bessarbia in white. Bucovina, north or otherwise, let alone Herta, isn't shown: being occupied by Austria's Kaisser and not Russia's Czar, the U.S.S.R. made no claim until it took it, taking advantage of the  Molotov-Ribbentrop pact to even expand further on Soviet claims, which Ukraine now inherits.  Rather zealously.

This last region/republic may prove determinative, given Romanian-Republic of Moldova relations, the constitution of Romania declaring it a "unitary and indivisible National State" whose "national sovereignty shall reside within the Romanian people" "the common and indivisible homeland of all its citizens" and whose "territory...is inalienable," the constitution of the Republic of Moldavia descriibing it as a "unitary and indivisible state"  whose "territory is inalienable" "the common and indivisible motherland of all her citizens," and Ukraine's constituional beginning with "The sovereignty of Ukraine extends throughout its entire territory. Ukraine is a unitary state. The territory of Ukraine within its present border is indivisible and inviolable," and then declaring "The territorial structure of Ukraine is based on the principles of unity and indivisibility of the state territory" and "Ukraine is composed of...Odessa Oblast...Chernivtsi Oblast..."-all perhaps making this region determinative on the question raised on Ukraine and Romanian irredentism.

to be cont....
Thanks for your detailed discussion on this.
How does one sort out the competing claims of the Romanian Orthodox Church versus the Russian Orthodox Church in Bessarabia today?
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« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2010, 10:25:43 PM »

ialmisry,

Perhaps you can comment on whether the Rusyns want to be independent of Ukraine. I was under the impression that they do not consider themselves Ukrainians and do not want to be under Ukraine either politically or ecclesiastically. Thanks.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2010, 10:56:36 PM »

to be cont....
Thanks for your detailed discussion on this.
How does one sort out the competing claims of the Romanian Orthodox Church versus the Russian Orthodox Church in Bessarabia today?
There's some more details I should add, but to give an idea of an answer to your question, much depends on where Moldova goes.  If it goes into union with Romania (a fourth of its citizens have taken Romanian citizenship, and the number is rising), it would be reunited to the Church of Romania, or rather the Bucharest's Metropolia of Bessarabia (which is there already, more on that) would become the sole canonical Church.  That would be easier if Moldova would give up its claim to Transnistria. It would also make it easier for Kiev to get autocephaly, as Moldova has no connection to Russia. That, however, gets into what Moscow wants.  Moldova, however, not bordering Russia and not having a large Slavic population outside of Transnistria, and, if uniting with Romania, would be a member of the EU and NATO, Moldova has some cards Ukraine does not have to play: for one thing, overnight the Russian Army would become an occupying force in a NATO country.

Or Moldova could continue to maintain its independence.  Isolated on the one side by Ukraine and Russia, and the EU/NATO Romania on its other side, I don't think that is any more tenable than East Germany proved to be, and I think North Korea will prove to be.

As for the Russians, there is not much reason for Moscow to continue its presence, except the Turish Orthodox Gagauz

may prefer Moscow over Bucharest.

Btw, Romania (the country) has a diocese of the Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate in it. Similar provisions could be made with Moscow or Kiev (the Slavic population is almost even divided).
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ialmisry
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« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2010, 11:13:30 PM »

ialmisry,

Perhaps you can comment on whether the Rusyns want to be independent of Ukraine. I was under the impression that they do not consider themselves Ukrainians and do not want to be under Ukraine either politically or ecclesiastically. Thanks.

On the parent thread I touched on this:
So it's been like this for how long now? Nearly 1000 years? Perhaps the Ecumenical Patriarch can address the issue when he convenes the great council he has been planning. What about the people of Ukraine? Perhaps they should petition the Ecumenical Patriarch so that the matter of autocephaly for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church can be addressed at the great council when it is finally held?

I am not sure if I understand the purpose of the letter from Fr. Peter. Surely he knows his letter will change nothing and can only serve to incite more divisive sentiment. It is good to know some of the details of the history, but the matter should be brought to the EP, and perhaps not so much to Patriarch Kyrill.

Perhaps. But maybe sometimes it is better to be divisive than to be pretending that there is peace (Jeremiah 8:11). And if Fr. V. is right and it is true that HH +KIRILL is paying to HAH, then bringing this matter to HAH is useless - the only thing that can be of some use is just disseminating of this information among the Orthodox faithful of the world...

What is the name of that Ruthenian bishop/priest who is fighting a similar battle for Carpatho-Russia against Kiev?

I don't know. How can such "battle" be possible if the Patriarchy of Kyiv is still not even recognized?
before the recent regime change in Kiev.

The priest's name is Fr. Dmitry Sidor
Ukraine`s minority seeks autonomy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGE9aTIP9jI&NR=1
Will Andy Warhols people survive in Ukraine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW6TFUoHuZs&feature=related
where Rusyn refugees from Ukraine who have fled to Hungary.

In Ukraine's independence referendum 92% of Zakarpatia Oblast (the core of Ruthenia in Ukraine) voted yes, but they also voted 78% for autonomy. Kiev used the yes for independence and ignored the autonomy vote. (In constrast, the Crimean Autonomous Republic voted 54% for independence).  The Rusyns/Ruthenians/Carpato-Russians and the related Hutsul, Lemko etc. deserve their own treatment, which Lord willing I'l get to.  They can, if Ukraine get very high handed, provide an excuse for Russia to keep its influence.
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« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2010, 11:43:40 PM »

Isa...please correct some confusions i have. you seem to have your fingers on pulse on most of  problems everywhere.....You really Payed Attention In School.... Grin
Rysyns are they russian speaking people ,or is it a related language to russian....By the videos i was watching they seem to prefer Russia over Ukrania...
Will russia give them the autonomy there seeking...If Ukrainia keeps trying to smother them out of existence......... Huh
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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2010, 12:05:32 AM »

ialmisry,

Perhaps you can comment on whether the Rusyns want to be independent of Ukraine. I was under the impression that they do not consider themselves Ukrainians and do not want to be under Ukraine either politically or ecclesiastically. Thanks.

It depends, the Orthodox Rusyns tend to be russophiles and look to Moscow, the Greek Catholic Rusyns have no problem identifying as Ukrainian citizens of Rusyn ethnicity and look to Kyiv poltically while remaining independent ecclesiastically from the UGCC.
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« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2010, 12:10:54 AM »

Do you know the % of Rusyns in that area that are Orthodox vs Greek Catholic?

ialmisry,

Perhaps you can comment on whether the Rusyns want to be independent of Ukraine. I was under the impression that they do not consider themselves Ukrainians and do not want to be under Ukraine either politically or ecclesiastically. Thanks.

It depends, the Orthodox Rusyns tend to be russophiles and look to Moscow, the Greek Catholic Rusyns have no problem identifying as Ukrainian citizens of Rusyn ethnicity and look to Kyiv poltically while remaining independent ecclesiastically from the UGCC.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2010, 12:15:19 AM »

Isa...please correct some confusions i have. you seem to have your fingers on pulse on most of  problems everywhere.....You really Payed Attention In School.... Grin
Rysyns are they russian speaking people ,or is it a related language to russian....By the videos i was watching they seem to prefer Russia over Ukrania...
Will russia give them the autonomy there seeking...If Ukrainia keeps trying to smother them out of existence......... Huh
Rusyn is a group of dialects (in that no standard has been agreed on) related to Ukrainian and Russian, being East Slavic. A dialect is spoken in Serbia (green on this map):


If I had to describe it, it is dialects close to Ukrainian which use Russian as its model.

When I first heard it, I told the priest at the Church (which called themselves Carpatho-Russian, and were VERY Russophile.  Not anti-Ukrainian, but had no association/affinity with Ukraine (then "the" Ukraine to them), "so, you are Ukrainian?" "Well," the priest told me "the Ukrainians were on one side of the mountain, and we were on the other side of the mountain." "Yes," I continued,"and every Sunday you both went to Church and thanked God for the mountain."  He said "yeah, that's about it."

Even the most Russophile Rusyn, seeing themselves as Russian, nonetheless see themselves as a distinct people, related to but not identical to the Russians in Moscow or St. Petersburg. Sort of like the South in the US.

As for autonomy, I hope Russia learned its lesson:
An interesting lesson:
Quote
The Russian government sought recommendations in order to better solidify Russian rule should Galicia be retaken by Russian forces and annexed to Russia once again. Experts' conclusions varied. Aleksi Gerovsky suggested using positive methods of encouraging the Russian language and culture rather than repressive ones against Ukrainian-language institutions, and land and economic reform that would benefit Ukrainian peasants at the expense of Polish landlords and Jewish businessmen whose loyalty the tsarist authorities doubted anyways. It was felt that such reforms would undercut Ukrainophiles' appeals among the peasantry and would engender among Ukrainians a feeling that the Russians were their economic liberators. V. Svatkovskii, a spy based in Switzerland, felt that symbolically uniting Galicia with Ukrainians in the Russian Empire and playing upon anti-Polish sentiments rather than land reform would best gain Galicians' loyalty. Mikhail Tyshkevich, a prominent landowner in Kiev region, felt that making concessions on national rather than land reform issues would be helpful. He suggested that the tsar's son Aleksei be declared "Hetman of Little Russia," that portraits of him wearing a traditional Ukrainian costume be distributed in Ukraine, and that the Russian government ought to publish an official newspaper in the Ukrainian language. While all manifestations of political separatism ought to be stamped out, Ukrainian national aspirations should be supported. In Tyshkevich's words, "punish Mazepa but don't persecute Khmelnytsky." Such concessions on cultural matters, Tyshkevich felt, would create enough loyalty among the people to make economic reofrms unnecessary. After having sent a telegram to the tsar declaring his loyalty to him, Nickolas II responded with a message thanking him, "and also the group of Ukrainian gathered in Switzerland, for the feelings expressed." This had been the first time that the tsar had used the word "Ukrainians" rather than Little Russians.
Drawing on these recommendations, the Russian government determined that in the future while the Russsian language would remain the official Ukrainian would be permitted on a regional basis. The new administration was to composed of strictly military personnel who would not be concerned with religious matters nor have a Russian nationalistic orientation. When easternmost part of Galicia was briefly recaptured by the Russians in 1916, however, the Russians found that the region was economically devastated by the Russian scorched-earth policy during the previous retreat, as well as by the war, and that the population had become quite hostile towards the Russians and loyal towards the Austrians. Ukrainian and Polish schools were allowed to remain open and calls from Russian nationalistic circles within Russia to shut them down were ignored by the occupation authorities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_occupation_of_Eastern_Galicia,_1914-1915#Policies_toward_local_nationalities
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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2010, 12:23:22 AM »

I am a little bit more familiar with rusyns and russians but i must admit ignorance as i am not overly familiar with this area. What is the difference between ukrainians and russians? They have different languages? were they the same people at one time ? or did they develop from different tribes akin to anglos vs franks?
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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2010, 12:27:44 AM »

Isa...please correct some confusions i have. you seem to have your fingers on pulse on most of  problems everywhere.....You really Payed Attention In School.... Grin
Rysyns are they russian speaking people ,or is it a related language to russian....By the videos i was watching they seem to prefer Russia over Ukrania...
Will russia give them the autonomy there seeking...If Ukrainia keeps trying to smother them out of existence......... Huh
Rusyn is a group of dialects (in that no standard has been agreed on) related to Ukrainian and Russian, being East Slavic. A dialect is spoken in Serbia (green on this map):


If I had to describe it, it is dialects close to Ukrainian which use Russian as its model.

When I first heard it, I told the priest at the Church (which called themselves Carpatho-Russian, and were VERY Russophile.  Not anti-Ukrainian, but had no association/affinity with Ukraine (then "the" Ukraine to them), "so, you are Ukrainian?" "Well," the priest told me "the Ukrainians were on one side of the mountain, and we were on the other side of the mountain." "Yes," I continued,"and every Sunday you both went to Church and thanked God for the mountain."  He said "yeah, that's about it."

Even the most Russophile Rusyn, seeing themselves as Russian, nonetheless see themselves as a distinct people, related to but not identical to the Russians in Moscow or St. Petersburg. Sort of like the South in the US.

As for autonomy, I hope Russia learned its lesson:
An interesting lesson:
Quote
The Russian government sought recommendations in order to better solidify Russian rule should Galicia be retaken by Russian forces and annexed to Russia once again. Experts' conclusions varied. Aleksi Gerovsky suggested using positive methods of encouraging the Russian language and culture rather than repressive ones against Ukrainian-language institutions, and land and economic reform that would benefit Ukrainian peasants at the expense of Polish landlords and Jewish businessmen whose loyalty the tsarist authorities doubted anyways. It was felt that such reforms would undercut Ukrainophiles' appeals among the peasantry and would engender among Ukrainians a feeling that the Russians were their economic liberators. V. Svatkovskii, a spy based in Switzerland, felt that symbolically uniting Galicia with Ukrainians in the Russian Empire and playing upon anti-Polish sentiments rather than land reform would best gain Galicians' loyalty. Mikhail Tyshkevich, a prominent landowner in Kiev region, felt that making concessions on national rather than land reform issues would be helpful. He suggested that the tsar's son Aleksei be declared "Hetman of Little Russia," that portraits of him wearing a traditional Ukrainian costume be distributed in Ukraine, and that the Russian government ought to publish an official newspaper in the Ukrainian language. While all manifestations of political separatism ought to be stamped out, Ukrainian national aspirations should be supported. In Tyshkevich's words, "punish Mazepa but don't persecute Khmelnytsky." Such concessions on cultural matters, Tyshkevich felt, would create enough loyalty among the people to make economic reofrms unnecessary. After having sent a telegram to the tsar declaring his loyalty to him, Nickolas II responded with a message thanking him, "and also the group of Ukrainian gathered in Switzerland, for the feelings expressed." This had been the first time that the tsar had used the word "Ukrainians" rather than Little Russians.
Drawing on these recommendations, the Russian government determined that in the future while the Russsian language would remain the official Ukrainian would be permitted on a regional basis. The new administration was to composed of strictly military personnel who would not be concerned with religious matters nor have a Russian nationalistic orientation. When easternmost part of Galicia was briefly recaptured by the Russians in 1916, however, the Russians found that the region was economically devastated by the Russian scorched-earth policy during the previous retreat, as well as by the war, and that the population had become quite hostile towards the Russians and loyal towards the Austrians. Ukrainian and Polish schools were allowed to remain open and calls from Russian nationalistic circles within Russia to shut them down were ignored by the occupation authorities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_occupation_of_Eastern_Galicia,_1914-1915#Policies_toward_local_nationalities

Thanks Again....
 Isa it helped....The Odd sounding serbian I just attributed  It to  just a serbian version of macidonijan..... Grin
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2010, 12:37:03 AM »

I am a little bit more familiar with rusyns and russians but i must admit ignorance as i am not overly familiar with this area. What is the difference between ukrainians and russians? They have different languages? were they the same people at one time ? or did they develop from different tribes akin to anglos vs franks?
LOL.

Get some popcorn and sit back. Or maybe you may want to open a thread on the boldface.
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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2010, 12:48:12 AM »

Oh boy. I withdraw my questions. Not looking for fireworks.
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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2010, 12:56:02 AM »

Do you know the % of Rusyns in that area that are Orthodox vs Greek Catholic?

ialmisry,

Perhaps you can comment on whether the Rusyns want to be independent of Ukraine. I was under the impression that they do not consider themselves Ukrainians and do not want to be under Ukraine either politically or ecclesiastically. Thanks.

It depends, the Orthodox Rusyns tend to be russophiles and look to Moscow, the Greek Catholic Rusyns have no problem identifying as Ukrainian citizens of Rusyn ethnicity and look to Kyiv poltically while remaining independent ecclesiastically from the UGCC.

I think 70% Orthodox and 30% Greek Catholic.
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« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2010, 01:10:03 AM »

Thanks Deacon Lance. Perhaps I can ask you another question. I noticed in the recent numbers released that the Ruthenian Metropolia has 2 eparchies in europe. Have these always been part of the Ruthenian Metropolia as I would imagine they must predate immigration to America?

Do you know the % of Rusyns in that area that are Orthodox vs Greek Catholic?

ialmisry,

Perhaps you can comment on whether the Rusyns want to be independent of Ukraine. I was under the impression that they do not consider themselves Ukrainians and do not want to be under Ukraine either politically or ecclesiastically. Thanks.

It depends, the Orthodox Rusyns tend to be russophiles and look to Moscow, the Greek Catholic Rusyns have no problem identifying as Ukrainian citizens of Rusyn ethnicity and look to Kyiv poltically while remaining independent ecclesiastically from the UGCC.

I think 70% Orthodox and 30% Greek Catholic.
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« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2010, 01:22:33 AM »

Isa can we Serbs Give the credit to the Rusyn for the Great Love We Srbs Have For Russian ,The Rusyn Influence On Us....Just a Thought that crossed my Mind....Arn't there some sorbians People in Ukrainia and Russia that are related to us Serbs......
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« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2010, 04:51:21 AM »

Perhaps you can comment on whether the Rusyns want to be independent of Ukraine. I was under the impression that they do not consider themselves Ukrainians and do not want to be under Ukraine either politically or ecclesiastically. Thanks.
Well, there are Greek Catholic Rusyns and Orthodox Rusyns. The Orthodox ones want to remain under the MP, as far as I see. Both groups seem to agree on remaining within Ukraine, but they would like to obtain autonomy, like Crimea. There are only fringe groups who want independence, or who do not consider themselves Ukrainian.
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« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2010, 09:07:18 AM »

Isa can we Serbs Give the credit to the Rusyn for the Great Love We Srbs Have For Russian ,The Rusyn Influence On Us....Just a Thought that crossed my Mind....Arn't there some sorbians People in Ukrainia and Russia that are related to us Serbs......

No, the Serbs and Russia did that.  For instance, when the Ottomans conquored the rest of the Serbs and "abolished" the Patriarchate of Pec, Russia enabled Montenegro to continue on as a autocephalous Church.  I have to say, the Serbs are among the most loyal and grateful people I have come across in history.

No, the Sorbs are in Germany and Poland, but yes, they are related, as they stayed with part of the Serbs came from before the migraions (in green here):
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« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2010, 10:13:19 AM »

Thanks Isa.....Will we serbs ever reunite with the sorbs one day in the future or have we been sererated from them for to long of a time for that ever to happen.....I know that some of them embraced protestantisim and Catholicism are there any orthodox or eastern catholic sorbs .......Is the sorbs name the Original name for us before it changed to serbs in the balkan...

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« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2010, 11:18:14 AM »

Oh boy. I withdraw my questions. Not looking for fireworks.

Without any fireworks: yes, Ukrainians and Russians are two different nations, like Norwegians and Swedes, or like Spanish and Portuguese. Yes, their languages are different even though they are close (but Slovakian seems to be even closer to Ukrainian than Russian is, and yet no one would argue that Slovakian and Ukrainian are two separate languages). When a large part of Ukraine became a part of the Russian Empire, many Ukrainians, especially urban folks, were Russified. In 1876, the Tzar's government even issued a decree saying that not only the Ukrainian language but even "any separate Small Russia dialect" did not exist; that people who thought that they were speaking this "Small Russian dialect" merely did not have a good command in the Russian language, which must be the sole language of both "Great Russians" and "Small Russians." Nevertheless, the Ukrainian language survived. It cannot be killed, just like the people's soul and spirit cannot be killed...
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« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2010, 11:23:17 AM »

Rysyns are they russian speaking people ,or is it a related language to russian....By the videos i was watching they seem to prefer Russia over Ukrania...

Their language is very similar to Ukrainian and very far from modern spoken Russian. I bet you that if a Rusyn listened to people speaking somewhere in Ryazan' or Nizhniy Novgorod, he would not understand a thing, and if Rusyns would try to speak to these people, these folks would not understand a thing.

On the other hand, my father-in-law's mother always called herself a Rusynka and never a Ukrainka (she did not even know very well what this "Ukrainian" means, because she grew up in what was back then Poland). However, the language she spoke was quite understandable to me, who grew up in Kyiv and studied only a literary Ukrainian language at school. It did have some dialectismns, but overall it was the Ukrainian language.
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« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2010, 01:24:14 PM »

Rysyns are they russian speaking people ,or is it a related language to russian....By the videos i was watching they seem to prefer Russia over Ukrania...

Their language is very similar to Ukrainian and very far from modern spoken Russian. I bet you that if a Rusyn listened to people speaking somewhere in Ryazan' or Nizhniy Novgorod, he would not understand a thing, and if Rusyns would try to speak to these people, these folks would not understand a thing.

On the other hand, my father-in-law's mother always called herself a Rusynka and never a Ukrainka (she did not even know very well what this "Ukrainian" means, because she grew up in what was back then Poland). However, the language she spoke was quite understandable to me, who grew up in Kyiv and studied only a literary Ukrainian language at school. It did have some dialectismns, but overall it was the Ukrainian language.

The Wikipedia article on what lies at the base of Rusyn leaves much to be desired:

Quote
Iazychie (Ukrainian: Язичіє, Yazychiye) was an artificial language invented in nineteenth century by Ukrainian Russophiles to provide support for the theory that Ukrainian was a dialect of Russian. Iazychie was used in their publications in East Galicia until twentieth century, when it was replaced with Russian. The language was an artificial mixture of Russian and Church Slavonic with Ukrainian pronunciation and regionalisms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazychie

Since all standard language are largely "artificial," Iazychie is not distinguished by that.  Only perhaps in contrast with Balachka or Surzhyk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balachka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surzhyk
does it make more sense.

The bio on one of their more well known poets does a better job of describing the mentality of the language, and its people:
Quote
Oleksandr Dukhnovych supported education and cultural revival of Carpathian Ruthenians. He saw his role as a defender of Ruthenian culture against Magyarization. In 1850 Dukhnovych established the first Ruthenian cultural association, the Prešov Literary Society. The society under his guidance published a series of books. His most famous patriotic poem Ia rusyn byl, ies'm i budu (I Was, Am, and Will Be a Ruthenian) was published as part of an anthology in 1851. This poem would later become the national anthem of Carpatho-Ruthenians. Dukhnovych also published a number of pedagogical and religious books, elementary school textbook and a Grammar. His most famous scholarly works were The History of the Eparchy of Prjašev (1877), originally published in Latin and later translated in Russian and English, and a History of Carpathian Ruthenians (1853).

Dukhnovych also actively participated in the Moscophile (Russophile) (Москвофільство) movement in Western Ukraine at the end of the 19th century. Even though Dukhnovych wrote in the local language he did not believe it to be a separate language nor did he wish to contribute to a creation of a literary language of Carpathian Ruthenians. Instead Dukhnovych wrote his scholarly works in a peculiar dialect called iazychie made of Russian, Church-Slavonic and local Ukrainian.  He also believed Ruthenians to be one people with Russians and therefore advocated for closer cultural ties with Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksandr_Dukhnovych

On  a more detailed analysis.
http://books.google.com/books?id=XoT3hxJZ2lsC&pg=PA234&lpg=PA234&dq=Iazychie&source=bl&ots=77KuEW60Z-&sig=6nfR3dcdgizQFMxie_uV1uCuJOw&hl=en&ei=oMZ_TLvSL8OVnAfC0qyUAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Iazychie&f=false
Straddling borders: literature and identity in Subcarpathian Rus' By Elaine Rusinko
Diglossia and power: language policies and practice in the 19th century ... By Rosita Rindler Schjerve
http://books.google.com/books?id=JOTFCTYSjicC&pg=PA149&dq=Iazychie&hl=en&ei=n8h_TPKgH8b-ngenyqR5&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Iazychie&f=false

The Rusyns differ from the Hutsul, evidently, in that the latter identify themselves as Ukrainians (so I read, I've never met one), whereas the Rusyns identify with a Greater Russian identity for the most part (being part of a Greater Russia, but not "Great Russian").

Mutual intelligibility is not determinative:the consensus on a standard does..  Chinese "dialects"can't understand each other, and I can't understand a word a Moroccan says. But all the Chinese (the Han at least) speak one language, and I and the Moroccan Arab speak one language. On the other hand, Croatian and Serbian speakers in one village, and Urdu and Hindi speakers in one village might be said to speak the same dialect but speaking two languages. The Hindi speaker, for instance, will write down in Devangeri, the Urdu in Arabic script, although the Devangari has characters for the sounds introduced via Urdu from Arabic, and the Arabic script has diacritics for the sounds from Sanskrit in the Indic base of Urdu.

One language/dialect may establish itself as the standard (like Parisian for French, and Castellano for Spanish), or developed from a prestigeous base with cultivation from other "dialects," like the Queen's English and Hochdeutsch.

Had the Kievan recension, adopted by Moscow, of Church Slavonic had been developed into a standard for Russian and Ukrainian, they may have remained one language. The Russians and Ukrainians abandoned Church Slavonic at roughly the same time, and went in different directions,
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« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2010, 01:43:49 PM »

Stashko, the Sorbs/Wends are a West-Slavic people; their two languages (Upper Sorbian and Lower Sorbian) are closely related to Czech and Polish.  Historically, they were Roman Catholic, but after the Reformation, some became Lutheran; am emigrant group of them in the U.S. helped found the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.

The Serbs are a Southern Slavic people; their language has, by now, devolved into several mutually intelligible dialects (Serbian, Croatioan, Montenegrin, etc.), and all these are distinct from the West-Slavic languages.

The root srb- means "speak," and goes back to a time when isolated tribes believed themselves to be the only peoples who had proper language (this also holds for the root slav-, btw.; howbeit, that word acquired a different etymology).
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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2010, 01:56:01 PM »

Mutual intelligibility is not determinative:the consensus on a standard does..  Chinese "dialects"can't understand each other, and I can't understand a word a Moroccan says. But all the Chinese (the Han at least) speak one language, and I and the Moroccan Arab speak one language.
That is not at all scientific. You also oversimplify a lot. Mutual intellegibility does play a great role in defining a language. You should take into consideration that many languages don't even have a standard, and many serious linguists will tell you that Croatian and Serbian are two different standards of the same language. Also, dialect continuums play a great role. For example, the dialect spoken in eastern Moravia is closer to the Slovak standard than to the Czech standard.

As for Morocco, having lived there and personally knowing several Moroccan linguists, let me tell you first of all that the majority of Moroccan speak Tamazight (Berber) as their native language. There is disagreement whether there is one Moroccan Berber language with three dialects, or whether there are three Berber languages in Morocco. The king favours the first version and he has founded a royal institute to create one standard for the whole country.
The "Arabic" spoken in Morocco is usually called "darija", and is considered by linguists to be a separate creole language on Arabic base, but with heavy Berber and French influence. Standard Arabic (fus7a) is taught in schools and used for some administrative purposes. Several newspapers also use standard Arabic, but the most popular one, "Al Massae", uses a mix of Fus7a and Darija. Some other newspapers use French, which is also the language of business, private schools, etc.
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« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2010, 01:58:06 PM »

As for the Sorbs, the RCC is reducing the number of priests in Sorbian villages in Germany, because there is a lack of young priests anyway, and it is even more difficult to find ones that speak Sorbian. I think this would be a wonderful oppurtunity to start an Orthodox mission there, for a Serbian or Russian, learning Sorbian shouldn't be so difficult...
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« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2010, 03:01:57 PM »

Mutual intelligibility is not determinative:the consensus on a standard does..  Chinese "dialects"can't understand each other, and I can't understand a word a Moroccan says. But all the Chinese (the Han at least) speak one language, and I and the Moroccan Arab speak one language.
That is not at all scientific.

Au contraire. It is based on study of several languages, over several millenium, across several world civilizations.

You also oversimplify a lot. Mutual intellegibility does play a great role in defining a language.

Beyond language family, I can't think of a single instance of mutual intelligbiliy being determinative in defining a language.  Can you?

You should take into consideration that many languages don't even have a standard,

I'm aware of that, and already taken that into consideration: my premise stands.

and many serious linguists will tell you that Croatian and Serbian are two different standards of the same language.

When I was in Yugoslavia in 1987, a soldier was taken aback when I asked him what nationality he was. He was a Croat, but he said that didn't matter, as it was one country. We were on a train at Bosnia, and when we passed the border, he laughed and pointed it out with a dismissive wave of the hand. Of course, a year later, they were killing each other over that "non-existent" border.

Serious linguists? Sounds like a coroner doing the job of a fitness trainer.  At the height of Serb-Croatian, as a pluricentric language, Serbian and Croatian still showed more differences beyond just the alphabet.

One could claim that Bokmal Norwegian and Danish are two standards of the same language (the designation as such "Danish-Norwegian" lost by only 5 votes in the parliament), but that wouldn't prove as useful as seeing them as related languages. So too Serbian and Croatian (and talking with the Bosnians I know, maybe Bosnian at some date).


Also, dialect continuums play a great role. For example, the dialect spoken in eastern Moravia is closer to the Slovak standard than to the Czech standard.

But the eastern Moravian emulates what is said in Prague rather than what is said in Bratislava. Oddly enough, I never heard the argument that Slovak and Czech were two standards  of the same language until after the dissolution of Czechoslovakia. Oddly enough, I also didn't see the same feeling of a common nationality in Czechoslovakia that I did in Yugoslavia.

As for Morocco, having lived there and personally knowing several Moroccan linguists, let me tell you first of all that the majority of Moroccan speak Tamazight (Berber) as their native language.
I'm aware of that: that's why I said "Moroccan Arab."

There is disagreement whether there is one Moroccan Berber language with three dialects, or whether there are three Berber languages in Moroc co. The king favours the first version and he has founded a royal institute to create one standard for the whole country.

I have neither the knowledge nor interest (not being Berber nor in Morocco) to get involved deeply in that fight. I take the Berbers like the Copts: some consider themselves Arabs, and I'm fine with that. Most do not, and I'm fine with that too, although I do not support Arabs telling the Copts that they are Arabs when the Copts don't see it that way.  It does seem a question on whether the Berbers are a signle people or a related group of peoples. Like the Amerindians in the Americas.

The "Arabic" spoken in Morocco is usually called "darija", and is considered by linguists to be a separate creole language on Arabic base, but with heavy Berber and French influence.

We all have our 9aamiyyah "Collloquial." That doesn't single Morocco out.  Calling it (or most Arabic colloquials) a creole is a bit much. The only real Arabic creoles are the ones in the Sudan.

Standard Arabic (fus7a) is taught in schools and used for some administrative purposes. Several newspapers also use standard Arabic, but the most popular one, "Al Massae", uses a mix of Fus7a and Darija.

That mixing is common in all the Arabic press. It's how localisms enter into the standard.  It is way over done in Egypt.

Some other newspapers use French, which is also the language of business, private schools, etc.
oui, at independence there was a dearth of the educated competent in Arabic, because of the Évolué basis of the French education system. At one point a law had to be put in place to require a civil servant demonstrate compentency in Arabic (i.e. fuS7aa). Most could do French.
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« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2010, 03:51:17 PM »

Quote
As for the Sorbs, the RCC is reducing the number of priests in Sorbian villages in Germany, because there is a lack of young priests anyway, and it is even more difficult to find ones that speak Sorbian. I think this would be a wonderful oppurtunity to start an Orthodox mission there, for a Serbian or Russian, learning Sorbian shouldn't be so difficult...

There are only some 630,000 Sorbs left in Germany.  Their territory within historic Lusatia (SE Saxony) has been steadily reduced, and both standard versions of Sorbian are regarded as endangered languages.
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« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2010, 06:16:19 PM »

Rysyns are they russian speaking people ,or is it a related language to russian....By the videos i was watching they seem to prefer Russia over Ukrania...

Their language is very similar to Ukrainian and very far from modern spoken Russian. I bet you that if a Rusyn listened to people speaking somewhere in Ryazan' or Nizhniy Novgorod, he would not understand a thing, and if Rusyns would try to speak to these people, these folks would not understand a thing.

On the other hand, my father-in-law's mother always called herself a Rusynka and never a Ukrainka (she did not even know very well what this "Ukrainian" means, because she grew up in what was back then Poland). However, the language she spoke was quite understandable to me, who grew up in Kyiv and studied only a literary Ukrainian language at school. It did have some dialectismns, but overall it was the Ukrainian language.

The Wikipedia article on what lies at the base of Rusyn leaves much to be desired:

Quote
Iazychie (Ukrainian: Язичіє, Yazychiye) was an artificial language invented in nineteenth century by Ukrainian Russophiles to provide support for the theory that Ukrainian was a dialect of Russian. Iazychie was used in their publications in East Galicia until twentieth century, when it was replaced with Russian. The language was an artificial mixture of Russian and Church Slavonic with Ukrainian pronunciation and regionalisms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazychie

Since all standard language are largely "artificial," Iazychie is not distinguished by that.  Only perhaps in contrast with Balachka or Surzhyk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balachka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surzhyk
does it make more sense.

The bio on one of their more well known poets does a better job of describing the mentality of the language, and its people:
Quote
Oleksandr Dukhnovych supported education and cultural revival of Carpathian Ruthenians. He saw his role as a defender of Ruthenian culture against Magyarization. In 1850 Dukhnovych established the first Ruthenian cultural association, the Prešov Literary Society. The society under his guidance published a series of books. His most famous patriotic poem Ia rusyn byl, ies'm i budu (I Was, Am, and Will Be a Ruthenian) was published as part of an anthology in 1851. This poem would later become the national anthem of Carpatho-Ruthenians. Dukhnovych also published a number of pedagogical and religious books, elementary school textbook and a Grammar. His most famous scholarly works were The History of the Eparchy of Prjašev (1877), originally published in Latin and later translated in Russian and English, and a History of Carpathian Ruthenians (1853).

Dukhnovych also actively participated in the Moscophile (Russophile) (Москвофільство) movement in Western Ukraine at the end of the 19th century. Even though Dukhnovych wrote in the local language he did not believe it to be a separate language nor did he wish to contribute to a creation of a literary language of Carpathian Ruthenians. Instead Dukhnovych wrote his scholarly works in a peculiar dialect called iazychie made of Russian, Church-Slavonic and local Ukrainian.  He also believed Ruthenians to be one people with Russians and therefore advocated for closer cultural ties with Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksandr_Dukhnovych

On  a more detailed analysis.
http://books.google.com/books?id=XoT3hxJZ2lsC&pg=PA234&lpg=PA234&dq=Iazychie&source=bl&ots=77KuEW60Z-&sig=6nfR3dcdgizQFMxie_uV1uCuJOw&hl=en&ei=oMZ_TLvSL8OVnAfC0qyUAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Iazychie&f=false
Straddling borders: literature and identity in Subcarpathian Rus' By Elaine Rusinko
Diglossia and power: language policies and practice in the 19th century ... By Rosita Rindler Schjerve
http://books.google.com/books?id=JOTFCTYSjicC&pg=PA149&dq=Iazychie&hl=en&ei=n8h_TPKgH8b-ngenyqR5&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Iazychie&f=false

The Rusyns differ from the Hutsul, evidently, in that the latter identify themselves as Ukrainians (so I read, I've never met one), whereas the Rusyns identify with a Greater Russian identity for the most part (being part of a Greater Russia, but not "Great Russian").

Mutual intelligibility is not determinative:the consensus on a standard does..  Chinese "dialects"can't understand each other, and I can't understand a word a Moroccan says. But all the Chinese (the Han at least) speak one language, and I and the Moroccan Arab speak one language. On the other hand, Croatian and Serbian speakers in one village, and Urdu and Hindi speakers in one village might be said to speak the same dialect but speaking two languages. The Hindi speaker, for instance, will write down in Devangeri, the Urdu in Arabic script, although the Devangari has characters for the sounds introduced via Urdu from Arabic, and the Arabic script has diacritics for the sounds from Sanskrit in the Indic base of Urdu.

One language/dialect may establish itself as the standard (like Parisian for French, and Castellano for Spanish), or developed from a prestigeous base with cultivation from other "dialects," like the Queen's English and Hochdeutsch.

Had the Kievan recension, adopted by Moscow, of Church Slavonic had been developed into a standard for Russian and Ukrainian, they may have remained one language. The Russians and Ukrainians abandoned Church Slavonic at roughly the same time, and went in different directions,
I think it is debatable as to whether or not Serbian and Croatian are two languages or two dialects. There are a lot of linguists who say the latter, which seems to be right to me.
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« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2010, 06:49:23 PM »

The U-tube video the show the Sorbs in Germany Protesting ....here's a video of sorbian woman singing, give me one egg......http://www.youtube.com/v/Km_-Rl44Z6s?fs=1&hl=en_US

Sorbian,
Protest video.....http://www.youtube.com/v/qGsZyIYB9zU?fs=1&hl=en_US
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« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2010, 09:43:13 PM »

Stashko, the Sorbs/Wends are a West-Slavic people; their two languages (Upper Sorbian and Lower Sorbian) are closely related to Czech and Polish.  Historically, they were Roman Catholic, but after the Reformation, some became Lutheran; am emigrant group of them in the U.S. helped found the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.


I don't know about this.  While the bulk of the Germans that came to the US and founded the LCMS were from Saxony, I have never heard of them being Sorbian.  The Sorbs from Saxony mostly settled in Texas, whereas the Germans who founded the LCMS settled in Perry County, Mo.  I lived right across the river from Perry County during my teen years, and my father is an LCMS pastor.  We still had German services once a month in the area, and they were in German, not any Slavic dialect.  In addition, the ROCOR priest that baptized me is the son of a Lutheran theologian from the St. Louis Seminary (LCMS).  His family is also German, as are a good number of people in his parish.  My Grandmother is from Saxony, and was raised Lutheran.  I don't remember any mention of Sorbs or any other nationality, and our family tree was traced back to the 1700's.  Where could I read about this Sorbian influence on the LCMS.  I find it very interesting.
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« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2010, 01:56:43 AM »

Yes, the largest Sorbian population outside historic Lusatia is in Texas.  While the founders of the LCMS were, obviously, from Missouri, the Sorbian Lutherans in Texas were of great help getting the denomination established outside Missouri; Concordia University in Austin, a LCMS institution, was founded by Sorbs.
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« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2010, 09:39:34 AM »

Yes, the largest Sorbian population outside historic Lusatia is in Texas.  While the founders of the LCMS were, obviously, from Missouri, the Sorbian Lutherans in Texas were of great help getting the denomination established outside Missouri; Concordia University in Austin, a LCMS institution, was founded by Sorbs.

Thank you!  This explains some things I have wondered about.
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« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2010, 05:23:47 AM »

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As for the Sorbs, the RCC is reducing the number of priests in Sorbian villages in Germany, because there is a lack of young priests anyway, and it is even more difficult to find ones that speak Sorbian. I think this would be a wonderful oppurtunity to start an Orthodox mission there, for a Serbian or Russian, learning Sorbian shouldn't be so difficult...

There are only some 630,000 Sorbs left in Germany.  Their territory within historic Lusatia (SE Saxony) has been steadily reduced, and both standard versions of Sorbian are regarded as endangered languages.
Incorrect, there are only about 50.000 Serbolusatians.
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« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2010, 01:10:34 AM »

Going over some old unposted posts, I was reminded of this
At Europe's Borders: Medieval Towns in the Romanian Principalities By Laurențiu Rădvan
http://books.google.com/books?id=0xNYmFwyCdkC&pg=PA376&dq=targ+medieval+town&hl=en&ei=agHiTOzrI8u4ngfK-IjDDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=targ%20medieval%20town&f=false

which deals with the origins of the cities of Moldavia. Why that is of importance here is that between the Muslim/pagan Mongols and Tartars ravishing the country, the Kings of Poland trying to own the legacy of the Rus' for the Vatican's purposes, and the "Apostolic" King of Hungary trying to do the same, the only places where Orthodox bishops were at liberty to establish their sees and exercise their jurisdiction, the basics of forming the Holy Synod of an autonomous then an Autocephalous Church.
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« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2010, 01:43:50 AM »

I just came across this, an ecclesiastical map of Romania after reunification and before the dismemberment:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ro/thumb/a/af/Organizarea_Bisericii_Ortodoxe_Rom%C3%A2ne_1938.svg/800px-Organizarea_Bisericii_Ortodoxe_Rom%C3%A2ne_1938.svg.png
And today
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« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2010, 02:55:48 AM »

I just came across this, an ecclesiastical map of Romania after reunification and before the dismemberment:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ro/thumb/a/af/Organizarea_Bisericii_Ortodoxe_Rom%C3%A2ne_1938.svg/800px-Organizarea_Bisericii_Ortodoxe_Rom%C3%A2ne_1938.svg.png
And today

The problem is that the Russians have been claiming Bessarabia. Even recently, I heard about tensions between the Russian Orthodox and the Romanian Orthodox in Moldavia.
Also, 25 years ago, before the "revolution," the newscasts from Moldavia which were in the Romanian language, Romanian was spoken with a Russian accent, and even written in the cyrillic alphabet, I think.
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« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2010, 03:54:49 AM »

The problem is that the Russians have been claiming Bessarabia. Even recently, I heard about tensions between the Russian Orthodox and the Romanian Orthodox in Moldavia.
Also, 25 years ago, before the "revolution," the newscasts from Moldavia which were in the Romanian language, Romanian was spoken with a Russian accent, and even written in the cyrillic alphabet, I think.

The problem with the Russian claims is that Basarabia didn't ever belong to Russia before 1812.
The use of cyrillic alphabet wasn't something of choice after all. It was something imposed by an occupying country. And the Russian accent can be explained by the Russian influence.
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« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2010, 09:28:27 AM »

Also, 25 years ago, before the "revolution," the newscasts from Moldavia which were in the Romanian language, Romanian was spoken with a Russian accent, and even written in the cyrillic alphabet, I think.

The accent in the Republic of Moldova has always been more or less the same as on the other side of the border in Romanian cities like Iasi and Botosani. What gives someone away as being from the Republic of Moldova is not their accent, but rather their vocabulary and certain Russian calques, e.g. dati sa vorbim pe romaneste! (where the exhortative particle is copied from Russian davaj) for standard Romanian hai sa vorbim pe romaneste!.
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« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2010, 09:54:43 AM »

The problem is that the Russians have been claiming Bessarabia. Even recently, I heard about tensions between the Russian Orthodox and the Romanian Orthodox in Moldavia.
Also, 25 years ago, before the "revolution," the newscasts from Moldavia which were in the Romanian language, Romanian was spoken with a Russian accent, and even written in the cyrillic alphabet, I think.

The problem with the Russian claims is that Basarabia didn't ever belong to Russia before 1812.
The area of the future Moldavia was joined at various points to Rus'.  It seems the episcopate of Moldavia originated from the Kingdom of Halych.

Looking at the map, I notice the difference between the Metropolis of Bucovina in 1938 where it had part of the territory taken from Moscow/St. Petersburg-Bucovina being one of the Autocephalous Churches which united to form the BOR, and today, where it has been rejoined to its Mother (then autonomous) Metropolis of Moldavia.

Quote
The use of cyrillic alphabet wasn't something of choice after all. It was something imposed by an occupying country. And the Russian accent can be explained by the Russian influence.
Cyrillic, however, had been out only for a decade or so-Bessarabia didn't switch to Latin like the Kingdom of Romania, and did so only when it joined the Kingdom, only to be taken by the Soviets about 2 decades later.

I've never met anyone from West of the Prut, so I can't tell if it is a Moldavian accent or a Bessarabian one, but they do have a distinct manner of speech which does sound Russian.

But then I thought Romanian sounded like Italian with a Russian accent the first time I heard it, something that displeased my exwife no end.
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« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2010, 12:05:52 PM »

I was reminded of this:
St. Vladimir/Volodymyr's father, Svyatoslav, the first of the Rurikids to bear a Slavic name, evidently was Slavicized growing up and reiging in Novgorod.  When he took power in 945, the Rus', Norse/Slav and inbetween, covered the area in the red:

The orange indicates his realm of cities, Gradiriki, at his death in 972.  Moscow lies on the borderland of the red line, and Sviatoslav made the local Slav tribe the Vyatichi  vassals in 966: by the time of the reign of his son Volodymyr/Vladimir they populated the basin on the Moskva (which may mean "dark," "turbid" or even "bear river." Shortly after subjugating the Vyatichi, he established his capital at Pereyaslavets, a slavic grad of the Turkic Bulgars in the Romanian/Vlach area of the Danube (it is now in Romania).
To which we might add:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Galicia-Volhynia_Principality
The far south city of the dark blue (the Kingdom of Halych-Volhynia, called by the Vatican in Latin Regnum Russiae "the Kingdom of Russia") is Rădăuți, a nucleus of the formation of both Moldavia and Bucovina.

And then the Second Bulgarian Empire, created by Romanian Vlachs with the Slavisized Bulgars and South Slavs.

This is during these centuries that Church Slavonic became the liturgical and state language of Romania, although Balkan Latin remained the vernacular.
For comparison, this is the three main principalities at the First Union


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« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2010, 12:43:32 PM »

^the Romanian principalities at the time of the formation of Moldavia
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« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2010, 04:10:38 PM »

Also, 25 years ago, before the "revolution," the newscasts from Moldavia which were in the Romanian language, Romanian was spoken with a Russian accent, and even written in the cyrillic alphabet, I think.

The accent in the Republic of Moldova has always been more or less the same as on the other side of the border in Romanian cities like Iasi and Botosani. What gives someone away as being from the Republic of Moldova is not their accent, but rather their vocabulary and certain Russian calques, e.g. dati sa vorbim pe romaneste! (where the exhortative particle is copied from Russian davaj) for standard Romanian hai sa vorbim pe romaneste!.
To me, the Romanian newscasts from Chisinev sounded  different from those from Iasi.
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« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2010, 04:12:08 PM »

The problem is that the Russians have been claiming Bessarabia. Even recently, I heard about tensions between the Russian Orthodox and the Romanian Orthodox in Moldavia.
Also, 25 years ago, before the "revolution," the newscasts from Moldavia which were in the Romanian language, Romanian was spoken with a Russian accent, and even written in the cyrillic alphabet, I think.

The problem with the Russian claims is that Basarabia didn't ever belong to Russia before 1812.
The use of cyrillic alphabet wasn't something of choice after all. It was something imposed by an occupying country. And the Russian accent can be explained by the Russian influence.
I thought that the Ruissians had been there from 1711, when they were at war with the Austrian empire and the Turks?
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« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2010, 04:57:13 PM »

The problem is that the Russians have been claiming Bessarabia. Even recently, I heard about tensions between the Russian Orthodox and the Romanian Orthodox in Moldavia.
Also, 25 years ago, before the "revolution," the newscasts from Moldavia which were in the Romanian language, Romanian was spoken with a Russian accent, and even written in the cyrillic alphabet, I think.

The problem with the Russian claims is that Basarabia didn't ever belong to Russia before 1812.
The use of cyrillic alphabet wasn't something of choice after all. It was something imposed by an occupying country. And the Russian accent can be explained by the Russian influence.
I thought that the Ruissians had been there from 1711, when they were at war with the Austrian empire and the Turks?

No.
Quote
The main event of the conflict was the ill-prepared Pruth Campaign of 1711, during which Russian troops under command of Peter the Great and Boris Sheremetev attempted to invade Moldavia with the aid of Moldavian ruler Dimitrie Cantemir but were surrounded and defeated by the Ottoman troops under Grand Vizier Baltacı Mehmet Pasha, in a decisive battle at Stănileşti (started on July 18, 1711).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruth_Campaign
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« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2010, 12:48:42 AM »

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But all the Chinese (the Han at least) speak one language
As one who is learning Mandarin, I must disagree, there are many Chinese languages that are different. Cantonese, Mandarin, Wu, etc are not dialects of Chinese, they are completely separate languages. These languages then have dialects composing them. They do, however, thanks to Qin Shi Huang, all use the same character system, so they can all communicate through writing.
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