Author Topic: Papal reform of the liturgy  (Read 1955 times)

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Offline lubeltri

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Papal reform of the liturgy
« on: September 01, 2010, 03:16:51 PM »
Ialmisry:
Quote
So we can conveniently ignore what the pope at the Vatican said in his "ecumenical council" Vatican II?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

So the RCC is conciliar, except when a Supreme Pontiff says otherwise, and he speaks infallibly ex cathedra at a ecumenical council, unless another pope issues a motu propriu saying otherwise.

Oh! The inscrutable mystery and wonders of the gift of papal infallibility, and its power of confusion!

Your attempt to mock the Catholic Church would be more effective if you were better informed. The reform called for by the Council (in 1963) was not the Pauline reform of 1970.  SC was in harmony with tradition but the 1970 creation of a new rite was not. They are not the same.

Also, an ecumenical council cannot throw out objective liturgical tradition, and Vatican II did not.

As for papal infallibility, it has nothing to do with it.  

Perhaps you are the one full of "confusion" here.

Also some advice---misinformed mockery and snark is not a very good way to convince the Catholics on this forum of the superiority of your faith or your church. Forgive me for saying so, but the tone of your posts in general lead me to believe that you have little interest in constructive or charitable dialogue.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 03:23:16 PM by lubeltri »

Offline wynd

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2010, 03:34:43 PM »
As for papal infallibility, it has nothing to do with it.

What about universal jurisdiction? Liturgy is not a matter of dogma, but the pope definitely has the power to rewrite the Mass any way he pleases, right? Or am I off base.

Offline Aindriú

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2010, 05:17:35 PM »
As for papal infallibility, it has nothing to do with it.

What about universal jurisdiction? Liturgy is not a matter of dogma, but the pope definitely has the power to rewrite the Mass any way he pleases, right? Or am I off base.

The Pope does not create new dogma out of thin air, or rewrite old ones. His role is to make clarifications when one is needed and keep the church pointed in the right direction.

I'm going to need this.

Offline stanley123

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2010, 07:41:49 PM »
Ialmisry:
Quote
So we can conveniently ignore what the pope at the Vatican said in his "ecumenical council" Vatican II?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

So the RCC is conciliar, except when a Supreme Pontiff says otherwise, and he speaks infallibly ex cathedra at a ecumenical council, unless another pope issues a motu propriu saying otherwise.

Oh! The inscrutable mystery and wonders of the gift of papal infallibility, and its power of confusion!

Your attempt to mock the Catholic Church would be more effective if you were better informed. The reform called for by the Council (in 1963) was not the Pauline reform of 1970.  SC was in harmony with tradition but the 1970 creation of a new rite was not. They are not the same.

Also, an ecumenical council cannot throw out objective liturgical tradition, and Vatican II did not.

As for papal infallibility, it has nothing to do with it.  

Perhaps you are the one full of "confusion" here.

Also some advice---misinformed mockery and snark is not a very good way to convince the Catholics on this forum of the superiority of your faith or your church. Forgive me for saying so, but the tone of your posts in general lead me to believe that you have little interest in constructive or charitable dialogue.
I think that this might be  a question of interest to the Orthodox Christian:
Does the Roman Pope have the right to impose a new or reformed liturgy under his power of supreme universal  jurisidiction?

Online The young fogey

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2010, 09:41:05 PM »
Hmm.

First, ialmisry is confusing things by equating ex cathedra with motu proprios. Ecumenical council-plus-Pope and Pope ex cathedra define doctrine. Motu proprios and liturgical rules are about discipline. Also, Vatican II was a 'pastoral' council, which means although Rome says it's ecumenical, it didn't define any doctrine.

It seems the Pope, with the claim of universal jurisdiction, can change the liturgy as seemed to happen with the Novus Ordo and, in a much smaller way, the Tridentine Mass in 1570, which was only a slight edit of the mediæval Mass with lots of loopholes (local uses older than 200 years were exempt).

Which leads to the other point: throughout most of history the Popes didn't treat the liturgy like something they could change on a whim. Quite the opposite. Standard RC operating procedure on this was like the Orthodox. It was local and changed very slowly. (The Tridentine Mass and Byzantine Liturgy evolved the same way and at the same time, the Middle Ages.) Pope Pius IX, the man who called the council that defined papal infallibility, Vatican I, when asked to add St Joseph to the Roman Canon (anaphora) (which Pope John XXIII did about 100 years later but anyway), said something like: 'I can't. I'm only the Pope.' That seems the true mind and heart of the RCC on the matter.
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Offline stanley123

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2010, 11:18:33 PM »
Standard RC operating procedure on this was like the Orthodox. It was local and changed very slowly.
The New Mass seems to be a radical break with the preVatican II Tridentine Mass and it was imposed on the Latin Church. Mariachi Masses, Halloween Masses, dancing girl Masses, Folk Masses, Guitar Masses, Cowboy Masses, Lesbian and Gay Masses, Puppet Masses, etc. None of thsi was seen before. Many of those who wanted to stay with the Tridentine Mass were excommunicated.
Also, it does not answer the possible fears of the Orthodox Church on the question of the supreme universal jurisdiciton of the Roman Pontiff. If the Pope of Rome has the power of supreme universal jurisdiction, then would he not have the authority to impose a liturgy of his choosing on the whole Church? Does he have this authority or not?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2010, 11:39:51 PM »
Ialmisry:
Quote
So we can conveniently ignore what the pope at the Vatican said in his "ecumenical council" Vatican II?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

So the RCC is conciliar, except when a Supreme Pontiff says otherwise, and he speaks infallibly ex cathedra at a ecumenical council, unless another pope issues a motu propriu saying otherwise.

Oh! The inscrutable mystery and wonders of the gift of papal infallibility, and its power of confusion!

Your attempt to mock the Catholic Church would be more effective if you were better informed. The reform called for by the Council (in 1963) was not the Pauline reform of 1970.  SC was in harmony with tradition but the 1970 creation of a new rite was not. They are not the same.

Also, an ecumenical council cannot throw out objective liturgical tradition, and Vatican II did not.

As for papal infallibility, it has nothing to do with it.  

Perhaps you are the one full of "confusion" here.

Also some advice---misinformed mockery and snark is not a very good way to convince the Catholics on this forum of the superiority of your faith or your church. Forgive me for saying so, but the tone of your posts in general lead me to believe that you have little interest in constructive or charitable dialogue.

If it us a question of strength, He is the strong one. If it is a matter of justice, who dares to summon Him to court?-Job 9:19

I could quote your canons, your council's decisions, your "apostolic constitutions," etc. etc. etc. or my posts quoting such matters, and I might, when I'm not so tired nor interested in other matters. But in the meantime...a simple question:

You yourself say that your Supreme Pontiff Pope Paul created a new rite, and threw out liturgical tradition. OK, you are you to say?  Who are the traditionalist bishops to say?  Who would a council of bishops be to say?  In short, how would anyone judge the Vatican and call His Holiness on his obvious error?  What canon would he be judged guilty of breaking, and what canonical court could be convened under your code to have him render account?

You may counter, God would not let His church sink into error, but you just said infallibility has nothing to do with it.

And you have had a good run with these Pope Bendict XVI and Pope John Paul II of Rome, but we know that there have been plenty of successions of "bad popse." What if Cardinal Martini emerged as pope in 2005 (as allegedly almost happened)?

Of course, recalling the suppression of the ancient Greek liturgy in Magna Graecia in Southern Italy, leading up to 1054, we know that the Vatican has, and does, suppress liturgies...Fr. Toth and Archb. Ireland...Latinization

etc.

Charity doesn't require me sipping the kool aid.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 11:50:11 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2010, 11:43:06 PM »
As for papal infallibility, it has nothing to do with it.

What about universal jurisdiction? Liturgy is not a matter of dogma, but the pope definitely has the power to rewrite the Mass any way he pleases, right? Or am I off base.

The Pope does not create new dogma out of thin air, or rewrite old ones.

He just "develops" doctrine.

Quote
His role is to make clarifications when one is needed and keep the church pointed in the right direction.

So the story says. However the debacle coming out of the 60's that the Vatican is just now emerging from says something else. The fish rotted from the head down.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2010, 11:54:22 PM »
Hmm.

First, ialmisry is confusing things by equating ex cathedra with motu proprios.

No, I did not.

Quote
Ecumenical council-plus-Pope and Pope ex cathedra define doctrine. Motu proprios and liturgical rules are about discipline.

I'm aware of that. I'm also aware of the rather confusing language of Lumen Gentium on the matter.

Quote
Also, Vatican II was a 'pastoral' council, which means although Rome says it's ecumenical, it didn't define any doctrine.
For a council that supposedly didn't define anything, it sure changed a lot of things.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2010, 12:32:09 AM »
Ialmisry:
Quote
So we can conveniently ignore what the pope at the Vatican said in his "ecumenical council" Vatican II?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

So the RCC is conciliar, except when a Supreme Pontiff says otherwise, and he speaks infallibly ex cathedra at a ecumenical council, unless another pope issues a motu propriu saying otherwise.

Oh! The inscrutable mystery and wonders of the gift of papal infallibility, and its power of confusion!

Your attempt to mock the Catholic Church would be more effective if you were better informed. The reform called for by the Council (in 1963) was not the Pauline reform of 1970.  SC was in harmony with tradition but the 1970 creation of a new rite was not. They are not the same.

Also, an ecumenical council cannot throw out objective liturgical tradition, and Vatican II did not.

As for papal infallibility, it has nothing to do with it.  

Perhaps you are the one full of "confusion" here.

Also some advice---misinformed mockery and snark is not a very good way to convince the Catholics on this forum of the superiority of your faith or your church. Forgive me for saying so, but the tone of your posts in general lead me to believe that you have little interest in constructive or charitable dialogue.

If it us a question of strength, He is the strong one. If it is a matter of justice, who dares to summon Him to court?-Job 9:19

I could quote your canons, your council's decisions, your "apostolic constitutions," etc. etc. etc. or my posts quoting such matters, and I might, when I'm not so tired nor interested in other matters. But in the meantime...a simple question:

You yourself say that your Supreme Pontiff Pope Paul created a new rite, and threw out liturgical tradition. OK, you are you to say?  Who are the traditionalist bishops to say?  Who would a council of bishops be to say?  In short, how would anyone judge the Vatican and call His Holiness on his obvious error?  What canon would he be judged guilty of breaking, and what canonical court could be convened under your code to have him render account?

You may counter, God would not let His church sink into error, but you just said infallibility has nothing to do with it.

And you have had a good run with these Pope Bendict XVI and Pope John Paul II of Rome, but we know that there have been plenty of successions of "bad popse." What if Cardinal Martini emerged as pope in 2005 (as allegedly almost happened)?

Of course, recalling the suppression of the ancient Greek liturgy in Magna Graecia in Southern Italy, leading up to 1054, we know that the Vatican has, and does, suppress liturgies...Fr. Toth and Archb. Ireland...Latinization

etc.

Charity doesn't require me sipping the kool aid.
That church in your post is a Latinized Melkite Church in Wisconsin
http://www.melkite.org/latin.htm
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2010, 12:46:14 AM »
Here's how the church looks now after the latinizations had been reversed










http://www.melkite.org/parishinfo.html
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 12:52:43 AM by ChristusDominus »
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Online The young fogey

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2010, 06:22:35 AM »
For a council that supposedly didn't define anything, it sure changed a lot of things.

True.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2010, 07:11:05 AM »
Liturgical changes can have an impact on the lives of both priests and faithful.

While Fr Gabriel (Bunge) had been a Byzantine Rite priestmonk for many years at the monastery of Chevetogne, when he moved to his hermitage in the Canton of Ticino he found himself in an Ambrosian-rite parish and he celebrated according to that rite.  But the changes to the traditional Ambrosian Rite did not sit well on his soul and he made a decision to return to the Byzantine Rite.    By God's grace this brought him into holy Orthodoxy.

See the current thread about his reception into Russian Orthodoxy last week.

Online The young fogey

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2010, 08:14:18 AM »
Thanks for the background on that news story. I'd heard - and once briefly saw a modern Ambrosian Rite altar missal - that the Ambrosian Rite, the rite of the RC Archdiocese of Milan (very similar to the Roman Rite, traditionally in Latin like it, but not the Roman Rite), was Novus Ordofied about 40 years ago so now it's essentially the NO with a few remaining quirks like six Sundays of Advent like the Byzantine Rite.

Another 'high-church' Greek Catholic 'doxes on principle. I think I understand.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2010, 11:06:07 AM »
Fortunately Summorum Pontificum has cleared the way for the other traditional Latin rites. The traditional Ambrosian rite (with its beautiful chant) is now being celebrated in Milan, and I was fortunate to assist at a wonderful Bragan-rite Mass last year. Other rites are also making a comeback in Europe and America, including the Dominican rite and the Carmelite rite.

Of course, the traditional Roman rite is making steady strides, while the new Roman rite slowly but steadily improves.

These tradition-minded trends will continue after Benedict passes on, and the Holy Father knows this. He is patiently tilling the ground for a coming harvest, prudently weeding when he can while also waiting for biology to take out some of the most stubborn weeds.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 11:08:23 AM by lubeltri »

Offline ag_vn

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2010, 11:30:40 AM »
Isn't the traditional Ambrosian rite celebrated in one parish only in Milan?

Online The young fogey

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2010, 11:43:53 AM »
Isn't the traditional Ambrosian rite celebrated in one parish only in Milan?

You're thinking of the Mozarabic Rite, another Latin non-Roman rite, which got its name from its origins in Moorish-occupied Spain. AFAIK it's still only used in one church in Toledo, Spain, but there may be revivals/exhibitions in others.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 12:13:49 PM by The young fogey »
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Offline ag_vn

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2010, 12:22:56 PM »
Isn't the traditional Ambrosian rite celebrated in one parish only in Milan?

You're thinking of the Mozarabic Rite, another Latin non-Roman rite, which got its name from its origins in Moorish-occupied Spain. AFAIK it's still only used in one church in Toledo, Spain, but there may be revivals/exhibitions in others.

Yes, I know about the Mozarabic rite, but I meant the traditional Ambrosian rite in its form before the changes followed the Second Vatican Council. I've read somewhere that it is celebrated in only one parish in Milan, after Summorum Pontificum.

Online The young fogey

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2010, 12:51:35 PM »
That sounds about right.
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Online The young fogey

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2010, 03:32:52 PM »
I don't know if you can download it but you can read it online. (If your Latin's up to it.) Gratias tibi ago.
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Offline Schultz

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2010, 03:38:21 PM »
I don't know if you can download it but you can read it online. (If your Latin's up to it.) Gratias tibi ago.

it's downloadable as a pdf.  the link is in the upper right section of the viewer's screen.
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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2010, 03:45:12 PM »
Thank you!
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Papal reform of the liturgy
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2010, 05:57:29 PM »
Last year I was blessed to hear Ambrosian chant at St. Paul's parish in Cambridge, Mass., sung by a schola from Milan.

There is a priest in Providence, Rhode Island, who has faculties to celebrate the Rite of Braga (Portugal), which he does sometimes.

The Dominican rite is regularly celebrated in about half a dozen places in the US. It was never reformed after the council because the order decided to drop their liturgical tradition wholesale and adopt the Novus Ordo. But the Dominican liturgy is slowly coming back. Friars in both the Eastern and Western Provinces are allowed to celebrate the Dominican Mass, and the Eastern Province this summer voted to have the rite taught to all friars in formation. I also noticed when I visited last year that the friars at the Eastern Province headquarters in Washington are now praying the Dominican rite Compline.

Brick by brick, as Fr. Z says :-). There are 4 or 5 weekly traditional Roman rite Masses around Boston now, up from only one 4 years ago.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 06:02:50 PM by lubeltri »