OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 21, 2014, 08:14:30 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: St. Origen  (Read 5579 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« on: August 31, 2010, 09:39:31 PM »

When will Origen be recognized as a Saint?

Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2010, 10:02:10 PM »

In all likelihood, never.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
jckstraw72
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,174



« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2010, 10:19:37 PM »

never
Logged
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2010, 10:29:42 PM »

He accepted the heresy of apokatastasis and so therefore can not become a saint. However, he did say much that is used to represent the antiquity of orthodox theology (both catholic and EO).
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 10:30:01 PM by Azurestone » Logged


I'm going to need this.
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2010, 11:27:40 PM »

Canon 11 from Constantinople II

Quote
If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris, Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, together with their impious, godless writings, and all the other heretics already condemned and anathematized by the holy catholic and apostolic Church, and by the aforementioned four Holy Synods and all those who have held and hold or who in their godlessness persist in holding to the end the same opinion as those heretics just mentioned; let him be anathema.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,156


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2010, 12:07:36 AM »

When will Origen be recognized as a Saint?
Why should Origen be recognized as a Saint?
Logged
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Posts: 7,132


"My god is greater."


« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2010, 08:35:24 AM »

He accepted the heresy of apokatastasis and so therefore can not become a saint.

Well, by that same criterion St. Gregory of Nyssa wouldn't be a saint either. With Origen though, I think it's because he had so many very weird ideas, borrowed from Plato and which contradict Orthodox teaching. Apokatastasis is just the tip of the iceberg. And of course there's the condemnation by the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

That said, Origen is worthy of our respect, as his writings on spirtuality had a decisive influence on many Fathers.
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,542


« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2010, 09:14:39 AM »

The main reason that Origen won't be recognised as a Saint is that he castrated himself.
Logged
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,926


« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2010, 09:20:30 AM »

Origen was excommunicated centuries after his death under pressure from emperor    Roll Eyes ::)St. Justinian   I wonder if Origen really made himself a eunich; could be a device to keep his rep negative.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 09:22:53 AM by recent convert » Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Orual
Orthodoxy = 7, not 3
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Sunday Morning Costume Parade
Posts: 951


I'm just here for the food.


« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2010, 10:04:16 AM »

Origen was excommunicated centuries after his death under pressure from emperor    Roll Eyes ::)St. Justinian   I wonder if Origen really made himself a eunich; could be a device to keep his rep negative.

There's no good evidence that he did. 

I don't like the fact that people keep bringing it up as evidence to condemn him.  There's a lot of question as to what he himself actually believed and taught versus what was taught in his name after he died, and people just want to retreat to the "Well, he castrated himself!" in order to maintain the status quo of Origen being condemned, and to avoid having to deal with the theological issues. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we have to declare Origen a saint or anything.  But I can't help but find it funny that such an ascetic, asexual man, who devoted his life to studying and teaching theology, would wind up being best known among future theologians for the alleged status of his genitals.    Cheesy
Logged

He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better. 

- C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
f.k.a. Matron.a
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,542


« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2010, 10:24:39 AM »

Well, IMO the self-inflicted wounds are bigger objection to canonisation than theological errors. Almost all theologians made some mistakes and they are considered Saints.
Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2010, 10:29:39 AM »

He accepted the heresy of apokatastasis and so therefore can not become a saint. However, he did say much that is used to represent the antiquity of orthodox theology (both catholic and EO).
It seems rather unfair to condemn Origen, even if he did accept apokatastasis, because during Origen's lifetime, he was never given a chance to either recant or clarify what he believed or taught. His anathema occurred centuries after his death.

One could easily argue that Origen, if told that his ideas were not consistent with the Church, would have happily obeyed any Church council. Origen, after all, always called himself a child of the Church, and never would have consciously held ideas deemed heretical.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2010, 10:30:32 AM »

Well, IMO the self-inflicted wounds are bigger objection to canonisation....
How do you know that he castrated himself?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
bogdan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,615



« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2010, 10:33:54 AM »

He accepted the heresy of apokatastasis and so therefore can not become a saint.

Well, by that same criterion St. Gregory of Nyssa wouldn't be a saint either. With Origen though, I think it's because he had so many very weird ideas, borrowed from Plato and which contradict Orthodox teaching. Apokatastasis is just the tip of the iceberg. And of course there's the condemnation by the Fifth Ecumenical Council.

I haven't researched it much myself, but I read here that there was a very small but important difference between St Gregory and Origen: that St Gregory expressed a strong hope for apokatastasis, but Origen asserted it with certainty.

That said, Origen is worthy of our respect, as his writings on spirtuality had a decisive influence on many Fathers.

Indeed.

Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,612



« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2010, 10:55:15 AM »

It isn't just about apokatastasis.  Gregory of Nyssa did not have bad anthropology--Origen did.  And this was the councils first concern, as we see it in the first of its anathemas.   Origen taught the pre-existence of souls, and worse yet, the men and material flesh only came about, not because of the will of God, but as the result of their sinful desire not to see the face of God.   For Origen the man is not body and soul, but the sole hidden in the "trap" of a body because his love for God grew cold and hid there!   That Origin is a heretic has little to do with the fact of restoration and much to do with the fact that he taught and upheld a completely dangerous view of creation, man and the Incarnation and whole of soteriology.   He taught not only restoration but also that the personhood of each human person will "disappear" and all be absorbed into the Godhead.   This is more Hinduism than it is Christianity.   
Logged
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2010, 11:53:21 AM »

That Origin is a heretic....
But doesn't someone's status as heretic depend upon that person maintaining ideas that a Church council has rejected? How could Origen be a heretic, if no one corrected his ideas while he was alive?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 11:53:49 AM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Punch
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,801



« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2010, 12:27:51 PM »

It caused me sadness to find out that Origen had been declared a heretic.  His writings were instrumental in bringing me into the Orthodox Church.  While we may not be able to pray to him (officially), I contintue to pray for him and have the utmost respect for him.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,542


« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2010, 01:17:56 PM »

Well, IMO the self-inflicted wounds are bigger objection to canonisation....
How do you know that he castrated himself?

Bishop Eusebius of Ceasarea?
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2010, 01:28:02 PM »

That Origin is a heretic....
But doesn't someone's status as heretic depend upon that person maintaining ideas that a Church council has rejected? How could Origen be a heretic, if no one corrected his ideas while he was alive?

The Church has made her position on the status of Origen's person. Beyond that, with regard to his writings, she takes the good and leaves the bad. Origen has not been made worthy of veneration for the good he has written, but has been condemned for the bad, and all the bad that that caused later. If we venerate him in contradiction of what the Church bids us do, we will be found disobedient. But if we follow the Church and accept what good teaching Origen provides, leave the rest, and leave aside the issue of his person because we ourselves are in no position to take it up, then we do well, I think. The matter is a settled one, as far as the Church is concerned. It was a painful decision at the time, and reconsidering it now, 1500 years later would be more difficult and dangerous--and for what? Our faith is not defined by either the person or teachings of Origen, but by Christ--His Person, teachings, and the teaching on His Person. It was for that that the 5th Council was convened, and for false teaching on that subject that Origen was condemned.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Orual
Orthodoxy = 7, not 3
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Sunday Morning Costume Parade
Posts: 951


I'm just here for the food.


« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2010, 02:03:51 PM »

Well, IMO the self-inflicted wounds are bigger objection to canonisation....
How do you know that he castrated himself?

Bishop Eusebius of Ceasarea?

Who is the only source on that that I'm aware of.  Origen's contemporary enemies attributed his asexuality to drug use, and said nothing about this castration business.
Logged

He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better. 

- C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
f.k.a. Matron.a
Aindriú
Faster! Funnier!
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Cynical
Jurisdiction: Vestibule of Hell
Posts: 3,918



WWW
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2010, 05:02:18 PM »

He accepted the heresy of apokatastasis and so therefore can not become a saint. However, he did say much that is used to represent the antiquity of orthodox theology (both catholic and EO).
It seems rather unfair to condemn Origen, even if he did accept apokatastasis, because during Origen's lifetime, he was never given a chance to either recant or clarify what he believed or taught. His anathema occurred centuries after his death.

One could easily argue that Origen, if told that his ideas were not consistent with the Church, would have happily obeyed any Church council. Origen, after all, always called himself a child of the Church, and never would have consciously held ideas deemed heretical.

I agree. Besides, St Gregory of Nyssa accepted the restoration. I think one of the key differences is that St Gregory 'hoped' in a restoration. At least in Catholicism, you are allowed to hope for a restoration as a proof of God's love. That is, God surely wouldn't turn his back on someone in hell if he happened to have a change of heart sometime in eternity. However teaching it or expecting it is another matter.
Logged


I'm going to need this.
Subdeacon Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 195



« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2010, 06:41:17 PM »

A form of this concept of a non-necessarily permanent hell may also be found in the writings of St Isaac the Syrian.
Logged

'There is nothing upon earth holier, higher, grander, more solemn, more life-giving than the Liturgy. The church, at this particular time, becomes an earthly heaven; those who officiate represent Christ Himself, the angels, the cherubim, seraphim and apostles.' - St John of Kronstadt
Jonathan Gress
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,911


« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2010, 07:25:35 PM »

Did nobody read FatherHLL's post? He makes it clear what the primary doctrinal errors that the Council condemned. Apokatastasis was not the most important error, although it was still significant.

And Shanghaiski's post is excellent, and should settle the matter. We take what is good in Origen, and leave the bad. And we don't presume to supersede the Church's judgment, which was guided by the Holy Spirit.

As for the idea that those in Hell can be saved, there is evidence that those who die in the faith can be saved from Hades through the prayers of the Church. There is also some more tentative evidence that those who die outside the faith may be saved through private prayers. I have even been told that the Russian Church has specific prayers to be read over infants who die unbaptized, but I haven't found this in Hapgood's translation of the service book. If anyone knows more about this, I'd be interested to hear about it.

So there are grounds for hoping that those outside the Church may be saved, and certainly that those who die in the Church, but who have not borne fruits worthy of repentance, may also be saved by our prayers for the dead. But in regard to the former, the Church does not take it upon herself to offer up prayers, leaving judgment to God alone.
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2010, 07:48:23 PM »

Origen was excommunicated centuries after his death under pressure from emperor    Roll Eyes ::)St. Justinian   I wonder if Origen really made himself a eunich; could be a device to keep his rep negative.

There's no good evidence that he did.  

I don't like the fact that people keep bringing it up as evidence to condemn him.  There's a lot of question as to what he himself actually believed and taught versus what was taught in his name after he died, and people just want to retreat to the "Well, he castrated himself!" in order to maintain the status quo of Origen being condemned, and to avoid having to deal with the theological issues.  

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we have to declare Origen a saint or anything.  But I can't help but find it funny that such an ascetic, asexual man, who devoted his life to studying and teaching theology, would wind up being best known among future theologians for the alleged status of his genitals.    Cheesy

Have you read his works? I have. I was really into him back in the late 1990's to about 2002. I still respect Origen, but I agree with the condemnation.


I only asked if you read his works because you made it seem as if he never really made the errors that people say he did.


« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 07:51:36 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Punch
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,801



« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2010, 08:10:30 PM »

A form of this concept of a non-necessarily permanent hell may also be found in the writings of St Isaac the Syrian.

Yes.  In the ROCOR Book of Akathists there is a prayer for the departed that invokes the words of St. Isaac the Syrian.  It prays for all the reposed, even those who have died by suicide.  When I asked a Priest about this, I was told that our Love for our fellow man compels us to pray for all.  No Christian wishes hell on anyone, particularly those who were unaware of their error (and I certainly include Origen in this).  We pray.  We let God judge.  While I accept all Seven Ecumenical Councils, I have a problem with ex post facto anathema.  I agree that many of the writings attributed to Origen are not Orthodox, I still question if his errors preclude his eventual Salvation.  Not to mention that many scholars question if the writings condemned by the Council were indeed Origen's, or those attributed to him (falsely) by his detractors.  I will continue to pray for his salvation, and the salvation of all.  Origen is in the hands of a merciful God, as are we all.  

BTW - I have read his works, or at least those attributed to him.  I am sure that not everything I believe is Orthodox, so I am not quite willing to cast a stone at one of the men who's works brought me into the Church.  
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 08:20:26 PM by Punch » Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Jonathan Gress
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,911


« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2010, 08:23:33 PM »

By ex post facto, what do you mean exactly? Do you mean anathematizing those who already have died? I was just reading about how Patriarch Ioannicius in 1375 sent monks to Serbia to pronounce the revocation of anathema over the grave of Tsar Dushan, who had been excommunicated, along with all Serbia, for establishing a new patriarchate without Constantinople's permission. So it seems the Church does in fact have the power to anathematize both the living and the dead, as well as to revoke those anathemas before or after death.

Actually, the text of the prayer at the end of the Akathist for the Dead says "those who took their own lives in madness of mind". There is a difference between taking your life after conscious deliberation, which is a mortal sin, and taking your life when you are unable to reason properly, in which case it is not a sin at all. The Church prays for the latter, not the former. That doesn't mean you can't offer up some personal hope in their forgiveness, but the Church as a whole does not have the authority to do this.

This is not about casting stones. There is no question of personal animus against Origen. There is only the humble acceptance of God's judgment against him, as manifested in the decision of the Ecumenical Council.
Logged
Orual
Orthodoxy = 7, not 3
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Sunday Morning Costume Parade
Posts: 951


I'm just here for the food.


« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2010, 11:34:09 PM »

Origen was excommunicated centuries after his death under pressure from emperor    Roll Eyes ::)St. Justinian   I wonder if Origen really made himself a eunich; could be a device to keep his rep negative.

There's no good evidence that he did.  

I don't like the fact that people keep bringing it up as evidence to condemn him.  There's a lot of question as to what he himself actually believed and taught versus what was taught in his name after he died, and people just want to retreat to the "Well, he castrated himself!" in order to maintain the status quo of Origen being condemned, and to avoid having to deal with the theological issues.  

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we have to declare Origen a saint or anything.  But I can't help but find it funny that such an ascetic, asexual man, who devoted his life to studying and teaching theology, would wind up being best known among future theologians for the alleged status of his genitals.    Cheesy

Have you read his works? I have.

Why yes, yes, I have.  I felt he was mostly a sincere, humble preacher, who may have gone off the deep end once or twice, but very smart, and mostly just handicapped by the fact that he lived and died before a lot of the later theological debates.

I was really into him back in the late 1990's to about 2002. I still respect Origen, but I agree with the condemnation.

I only asked if you read his works because you made it seem as if he never really made the errors that people say he did.

Well, he didn't make some of them.  This is exactly why I said I think it's time to leave the whole castration thing alone and focus on figuring out, as best we can, what Origen actually taught.

Like I said, I'm not going to argue that he should be made a saint.  However, I don't think the condemnation issued against him in later centuries should be the final word on Origen, considering that the condemnation wasn't actually part of the Fifth Ecumenical Council and it blamed him for stuff we no longer think Origen actually believed or taught.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 11:38:43 PM by Orual » Logged

He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better. 

- C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
f.k.a. Matron.a
Jonathan Gress
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,911


« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2010, 12:31:35 AM »

I'm not sure how you can be so certain that the Council did not anathematize Origen. See the following discussion:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.viii.html

What you're basically asking us to believe is that modern scholars, living many centuries after these events, and for the most part not imbued with an Orthodox mindset, happen to know more about what really happened than the God-inspired Fathers who lived at the time and experienced these events and personalities firsthand.

If you want to say the Church, i.e. the Holy Spirit, made an error of judgment, you can do so, but you'd better have some good proof.
Logged
Orual
Orthodoxy = 7, not 3
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Sunday Morning Costume Parade
Posts: 951


I'm just here for the food.


« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2010, 02:08:42 AM »

I'm not sure how you can be so certain that the Council did not anathematize Origen. See the following discussion:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.viii.html

That link doesn't say anything proving it did!  Even the guy who wrote it is ambivalent on the issue.

Quote
What you're basically asking us to believe is that modern scholars, living many centuries after these events, and for the most part not imbued with an Orthodox mindset, happen to know more about what really happened than the God-inspired Fathers who lived at the time and experienced these events and personalities firsthand.

Your criticisms of "modern scholars" for their alleged lack of an Orthodox mindset are not credible to me.  Perhaps you should join the Orthodox Church yourself.

Quote
If you want to say the Church, i.e. the Holy Spirit, made an error of judgment, you can do so, but you'd better have some good proof.

The Church is the Church and didn't make a mistake.  Origen wasn't condemned by the Church.
Logged

He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better. 

- C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
f.k.a. Matron.a
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2010, 02:10:47 AM »

Origen was excommunicated centuries after his death under pressure from emperor    Roll Eyes ::)St. Justinian   I wonder if Origen really made himself a eunich; could be a device to keep his rep negative.

There's no good evidence that he did.  

I don't like the fact that people keep bringing it up as evidence to condemn him.  There's a lot of question as to what he himself actually believed and taught versus what was taught in his name after he died, and people just want to retreat to the "Well, he castrated himself!" in order to maintain the status quo of Origen being condemned, and to avoid having to deal with the theological issues.  

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we have to declare Origen a saint or anything.  But I can't help but find it funny that such an ascetic, asexual man, who devoted his life to studying and teaching theology, would wind up being best known among future theologians for the alleged status of his genitals.    Cheesy

Have you read his works? I have.

Why yes, yes, I have.  I felt he was mostly a sincere, humble preacher, who may have gone off the deep end once or twice, but very smart, and mostly just handicapped by the fact that he lived and died before a lot of the later theological debates.

I was really into him back in the late 1990's to about 2002. I still respect Origen, but I agree with the condemnation.

I only asked if you read his works because you made it seem as if he never really made the errors that people say he did.

Well, he didn't make some of them.  This is exactly why I said I think it's time to leave the whole castration thing alone and focus on figuring out, as best we can, what Origen actually taught.

Like I said, I'm not going to argue that he should be made a saint.  However, I don't think the condemnation issued against him in later centuries should be the final word on Origen, considering that the condemnation wasn't actually part of the Fifth Ecumenical Council and it blamed him for stuff we no longer think Origen actually believed or taught.

I agree with you about Origen being very smart, and sincere. When I first read what he had to say about a number of passages in Romans chapter 9, it totally blew my mind away. He was a true genius! And I will always have a certain level of love and respect for him because of it.

But in regards to the decrees that were added to the 5th council. Well, alot of Origens works were destroyed, and so we are only working with a portion of his works. I think those back in the day had a better understanding of what he was saying for his works were widespread and he was very influential.  

And so I don't think it's wise for us to assume that they didn't know what they were talking about with the works they destroyed as well as with the implications that his views led to in regards to the Origenists. Also, I was told that the latins doctored up some of his surviving works in their translations to make him sound more orthodox.

Now I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what some are saying:
http://orthodoxchurchhistory.com/uploads/6Origen2006A.mp3 (Origen of Alexandria  (185-254AD) was a zealous and well educated Christian youth who became an instructor of Christian converts during the persecution that killed his father. He was a leading Biblical scholar and Spiritual writer. Unfortunately, while attempting to refute Gnosticsm, his theology was influenced by the Gnostic presupposition that the world was evil.)


But yes, I still admire Origen, and I probably always will. He was a true genius! Someone that lived before his time!







ICXC NIKA
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 02:15:24 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2010, 02:11:54 AM »

When will Origen be recognized as a Saint?



When Theodoret of Cyrrus is recognized as a Saint: i.e. never.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2010, 02:11:54 AM »

He accepted the heresy of apokatastasis and so therefore can not become a saint.

Though Origen's form of apokatastasis was heretical, not all were.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2010, 02:11:54 AM »

Origen was excommunicated centuries after his death under pressure from emperor    Roll Eyes ::)St. Justinian   I wonder if Origen really made himself a eunich; could be a device to keep his rep negative.

Origen's self-castration was condemned long before Justinian was even born.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2010, 02:11:54 AM »

He accepted the heresy of apokatastasis and so therefore can not become a saint. However, he did say much that is used to represent the antiquity of orthodox theology (both catholic and EO).
It seems rather unfair to condemn Origen, even if he did accept apokatastasis, because during Origen's lifetime, he was never given a chance to either recant or clarify what he believed or taught. His anathema occurred centuries after his death.

One could easily argue that Origen, if told that his ideas were not consistent with the Church, would have happily obeyed any Church council. Origen, after all, always called himself a child of the Church, and never would have consciously held ideas deemed heretical.

Yes, I agree that the later condemnation of his person was unfair.

However, I do think that the condemnation of his teachings is very important. And I think canonization of his person should be withheld, lest further confusion concerning his teachings arise.

It would be best just to have a neutral but respectful position with regards to his person.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2010, 02:11:54 AM »

I haven't researched it much myself, but I read here that there was a very small but important difference between St Gregory and Origen: that St Gregory expressed a strong hope for apokatastasis, but Origen asserted it with certainty.

That isn't the really significant difference. What is the significant difference is that Origen went way off the deep end in Platonizing Christianity in a way that Saint Gregory did not. The condemnation of Origen's apokatastasis has to be taken in the context of the other anathemas against him at Constantinople II, as they essentially describe the different factors of what was wrong with his form of the doctrine.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2010, 02:11:55 AM »

It isn't just about apokatastasis.  Gregory of Nyssa did not have bad anthropology--Origen did.  And this was the councils first concern, as we see it in the first of its anathemas.   Origen taught the pre-existence of souls, and worse yet, the men and material flesh only came about, not because of the will of God, but as the result of their sinful desire not to see the face of God.   For Origen the man is not body and soul, but the sole hidden in the "trap" of a body because his love for God grew cold and hid there!   That Origin is a heretic has little to do with the fact of restoration and much to do with the fact that he taught and upheld a completely dangerous view of creation, man and the Incarnation and whole of soteriology.   He taught not only restoration but also that the personhood of each human person will "disappear" and all be absorbed into the Godhead.   This is more Hinduism than it is Christianity.   

LOL. You said it way better than I.  Embarrassed
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,156


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2010, 02:21:31 AM »

Quote
What you're basically asking us to believe is that modern scholars, living many centuries after these events, and for the most part not imbued with an Orthodox mindset, happen to know more about what really happened than the God-inspired Fathers who lived at the time and experienced these events and personalities firsthand.

Your criticisms of "modern scholars" for their alleged lack of an Orthodox mindset are not credible to me.  Perhaps you should join the Orthodox Church yourself.
Hold on there!  Jonathan's status as a Greek Old Calendarist is irrelevant to this discussion (and to the point you're trying to make), thus making your comment (highlighted above) an ad hominem, so let's stop that line of discussion right now before it derails this thread.
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2010, 02:53:43 AM »

Origen was excommunicated centuries after his death under pressure from emperor    Roll Eyes ::)St. Justinian   I wonder if Origen really made himself a eunich; could be a device to keep his rep negative.

Origen's self-castration was condemned long before Justinian was even born.

If you can Shed some Light ......

If he was Plagued with sexual desires he couldn't control,and did what scripture says or as the lords words that say better to edit a offending member and enter heaven maimed then the whole body thown in hell....so How does a Church council supersede the words of Christ himself......Enquiring mind really would like to know.... Huh  Also To Save the rest Of Himself for  Heaven and from Hell by cutting off  the offending member....
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 03:07:58 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,156


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2010, 03:17:19 AM »

Origen was excommunicated centuries after his death under pressure from emperor    Roll Eyes ::)St. Justinian   I wonder if Origen really made himself a eunich; could be a device to keep his rep negative.

Origen's self-castration was condemned long before Justinian was even born.

If you can Shed some Light ......

If he was Plagued with sexual desires he couldn't control,and did what scripture says or as the lords words that say better to edit a offending member and enter heaven maimed then the whole body thown in hell....so How does a Church council supersede the words of Christ himself......
It's called the Church interpreting the words of Christ to make sure they're not taken, in this instance, according to their strictly literal and self-mutilating sense.  Would you agree that Jesus spoke in parables?  Why can He not also use hyperbole?  Obviously He didn't mean to have everything He said taken so literally.

Think about it.  If we were to all follow Christ's statement that we should pluck out our eyes if they cause us to sin, we'd all be blind by now, especially us guys. Shocked  And I'm sure He didn't imagine us literally walking around with two-by-fours in our eyes--they don't even fit.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 03:27:47 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Jonathan Gress
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOC/HOTCA
Posts: 3,911


« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2010, 08:28:22 AM »


That link doesn't say anything proving it did!  Even the guy who wrote it is ambivalent on the issue.

Well, it doesn't prove it didn't, and the author clearly leans towards the authenticity of the anathemas. Since you were stating as a matter of fact that the anathemas were not genuine, I was challenging you to show that in fact there is a scholarly consensus against their authenticity. In any case, since the Church has never saw fit to revise her judgment against Origen, the burden of proof is on those who would dispute these anathemas.

Quote

Your criticisms of "modern scholars" for their alleged lack of an Orthodox mindset are not credible to me.  Perhaps you should join the Orthodox Church yourself.

Well, perhaps I should have clarified. Much of the modern fashion for disputing the Church's traditional interpretation of history and dogma is based ultimately on the work of liberal Protestant scholars (and more recently also liberal Catholic scholars), who of course do not believe in the authority of Tradition. This trend in scholarship has also influenced many Orthodox writers. These individuals may very well show an Orthodox mentality in other fields, but when it comes to evaluating history they show the influence of these heterodox authors. Bishop Kallistos Ware is a good example of this.

Quote

The Church is the Church and didn't make a mistake.  Origen wasn't condemned by the Church.

I'm glad we agree that the Church cannot err. Therefore I hope you have proof that the Church did not condemn Origen, rather than mere speculation.
Logged
Orual
Orthodoxy = 7, not 3
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Sunday Morning Costume Parade
Posts: 951


I'm just here for the food.


« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2010, 08:39:30 AM »

Origen was excommunicated centuries after his death under pressure from emperor    Roll Eyes ::)St. Justinian   I wonder if Origen really made himself a eunich; could be a device to keep his rep negative.

There's no good evidence that he did.  

I don't like the fact that people keep bringing it up as evidence to condemn him.  There's a lot of question as to what he himself actually believed and taught versus what was taught in his name after he died, and people just want to retreat to the "Well, he castrated himself!" in order to maintain the status quo of Origen being condemned, and to avoid having to deal with the theological issues.  

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we have to declare Origen a saint or anything.  But I can't help but find it funny that such an ascetic, asexual man, who devoted his life to studying and teaching theology, would wind up being best known among future theologians for the alleged status of his genitals.    Cheesy

Have you read his works? I have.

Why yes, yes, I have.  I felt he was mostly a sincere, humble preacher, who may have gone off the deep end once or twice, but very smart, and mostly just handicapped by the fact that he lived and died before a lot of the later theological debates.

I was really into him back in the late 1990's to about 2002. I still respect Origen, but I agree with the condemnation.

I only asked if you read his works because you made it seem as if he never really made the errors that people say he did.

Well, he didn't make some of them.  This is exactly why I said I think it's time to leave the whole castration thing alone and focus on figuring out, as best we can, what Origen actually taught.

Like I said, I'm not going to argue that he should be made a saint.  However, I don't think the condemnation issued against him in later centuries should be the final word on Origen, considering that the condemnation wasn't actually part of the Fifth Ecumenical Council and it blamed him for stuff we no longer think Origen actually believed or taught.

I agree with you about Origen being very smart, and sincere. When I first read what he had to say about a number of passages in Romans chapter 9, it totally blew my mind away. He was a true genius! And I will always have a certain level of love and respect for him because of it.

But in regards to the decrees that were added to the 5th council. Well, alot of Origens works were destroyed, and so we are only working with a portion of his works. I think those back in the day had a better understanding of what he was saying for his works were widespread and he was very influential.  

And so I don't think it's wise for us to assume that they didn't know what they were talking about with the works they destroyed as well as with the implications that his views led to in regards to the Origenists. Also, I was told that the latins doctored up some of his surviving works in their translations to make him sound more orthodox.

Do you mean Rufinus?  Well, it's true that Rufinus did a hatchet job on translating Origen in an effort to make him sound better, he says so in his own preface to his translation of OFP, and the Cappadocians did their own share of cherry-picking out of his writings.  That doesn't mean Origen was less orthodox and Rufinus actually made him more palatable.  If you read a version of OFP with the translation of Rufinus along with the assorted Greek fragments, it can be really startling. 

Quote
Now I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what some are saying:
http://orthodoxchurchhistory.com/uploads/6Origen2006A.mp3 (Origen of Alexandria  (185-254AD) was a zealous and well educated Christian youth who became an instructor of Christian converts during the persecution that killed his father. He was a leading Biblical scholar and Spiritual writer. Unfortunately, while attempting to refute Gnosticsm, his theology was influenced by the Gnostic presupposition that the world was evil.)

But yes, I still admire Origen, and I probably always will. He was a true genius! Someone that lived before his time!

ICXC NIKA

Well, I'm glad we both like Origen.  Smiley  If I had a time machine, I'd go back and save his old writings, and then we would know for sure.  Or maybe just sit down and ask him.   laugh
Logged

He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better. 

- C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
f.k.a. Matron.a
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,636


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2010, 09:00:45 AM »

The Church is the Church and didn't make a mistake.  Origen wasn't condemned by the Church.

This should help:

Following the council held at Alexandria in AD 400 to condemn Origenism, Theophilus of Alexandria, in his synodal letter (no. 92) to the bishops of Palestine and Cyprus, stated the following:

The books of Origen have been read before a council of bishops and unanimously condemned. The following are his chief errors, mainly found in the Peri Archon.
  • The Son compared with us is truth, but compared with the Father, He is falsehood.
  • Christ's kingdom will one day come to an end.
  • We ought to pray to the Father alone, not to the Son.
  • Our bodies after the resurrection will be corruptible and mortal.
  • There is nothing perfect even in heaven. The angels themselves are faulty, and some of them feed on the Jewish sacrifices.
  • The stars are conscious of their own movements, and the demons know the future by their courses.
  • Magic, if real, is not evil.
  • Christ suffered once for men. He will suffer again for the demons.
   
Despite his being denounced during his lifetime, Origenism persisted for several centuries, and Origen and his main adherents were formally anathematised at the Fifth Ecumenical Council of 553, convened by Byzantine Emperor Justinian the Great. Some of the proceedings of this Council include:
  • Convened regarding Monophysitism (Nestorianism) and Origenism.
  • Nestorius, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Eutyches, and Origen defended these issues, which were condemned by Emperor Justinian.
  • Repeated condemnations from previous councils of Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris, Nestorius, and Eutyches.
  • Condemned Origen, Didymus, and Evagrius for teaching the pre-existence of souls, reincarnation, the ultimate salvation of demons, that heavenly bodies possessed souls, and other errors.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 09:16:21 AM by LBK » Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2010, 11:49:23 AM »

When will Origen be recognized as a Saint?



When Theodoret of Cyrrus is recognized as a Saint: i.e. never.

Actually, the Chalcedonian Orthodox traditionally refer to him as Blessed Theodoret. He was rehabilitated at Chalcedon after anathematizing Nestorius. I know that doesn't mean much to you as a Non-Chalcedonian, but that is how the Eastern Orthodox see him.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2010, 03:35:54 PM »

I would suspect that there's more a chance that Clement of Alexandria would be declared a saint, than that Origen would.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2010, 03:53:51 PM »

I would suspect that there's more a chance that Clement of Alexandria would be declared a saint, than that Origen would.

Well, he was considered so by the Orthodox of the pre-schism West. He's still on the Benedictine calendar on Dec. 4, IIRC. He is mislabeled a Gnostic. AFAIK, his writings are perfectly Orthodox.

Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Tags: Origen heresy apokatastasis 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.169 seconds with 72 queries.