Author Topic: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception  (Read 67631 times)

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Offline Aindriú

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Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« on: August 30, 2010, 10:43:21 PM »
I used to believe this rationale when I was an Orthodox NOT in communion with Rome.  But better minds than me convinced me of the illogical and unpatristic notion that concupisence is necessary for free will to have effect.  If I really believed this, then I would have to admit that Adam and Eve did not have free will.  I would also have to admit that Jesus Christ did not have free will, which would not make him fully human.  Pondering such heterodox consequences was enough to set my mind on the right track.

Blessings,
Marduk

This has to be the clearest picture of the "Immaculate Conception" I've read.

What 'I read' is that Mary, by the grace of God, was born (conceived) fully human. That is because, as I've brought up in a previous thread, to sin is to not be human.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29294.0.html

Now, taking that, just as Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, and then of their own free will, rejected God, Mary was created (conceived) pure, and then of her own free will accepted God. She is still fully human, in fact, she would be more human than any of us. Why? Because of God's grace. Which is also why God is still her savior, because without that Grace, she would have been born just as urgently sinful.

I'm going to need this.

Offline Papist

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2010, 02:22:27 PM »
I used to believe this rationale when I was an Orthodox NOT in communion with Rome.  But better minds than me convinced me of the illogical and unpatristic notion that concupisence is necessary for free will to have effect.  If I really believed this, then I would have to admit that Adam and Eve did not have free will.  I would also have to admit that Jesus Christ did not have free will, which would not make him fully human.  Pondering such heterodox consequences was enough to set my mind on the right track.

Blessings,
Marduk

This has to be the clearest picture of the "Immaculate Conception" I've read.

What 'I read' is that Mary, by the grace of God, was born (conceived) fully human. That is because, as I've brought up in a previous thread, to sin is to not be human.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29294.0.html

Now, taking that, just as Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, and then of their own free will, rejected God, Mary was created (conceived) pure, and then of her own free will accepted God. She is still fully human, in fact, she would be more human than any of us. Why? Because of God's grace. Which is also why God is still her savior, because without that Grace, she would have been born just as urgently sinful.
Get ready for all of those who will do one of two things.
1. Misrepresent the dogma of the Immaculate Conception so that they can attack a strawman.
2. Pretend like they don't understand the Immaculate Conception, when they really do.
It will be fun to watch my predications unfold.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Azul

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2010, 02:56:49 PM »
I used to believe this rationale when I was an Orthodox NOT in communion with Rome.  But better minds than me convinced me of the illogical and unpatristic notion that concupisence is necessary for free will to have effect.  If I really believed this, then I would have to admit that Adam and Eve did not have free will.  I would also have to admit that Jesus Christ did not have free will, which would not make him fully human.  Pondering such heterodox consequences was enough to set my mind on the right track.

Blessings,
Marduk

This has to be the clearest picture of the "Immaculate Conception" I've read.

What 'I read' is that Mary, by the grace of God, was born (conceived) fully human. That is because, as I've brought up in a previous thread, to sin is to not be human.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29294.0.html

Now, taking that, just as Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, and then of their own free will, rejected God, Mary was created (conceived) pure, and then of her own free will accepted God. She is still fully human, in fact, she would be more human than any of us. Why? Because of God's grace. Which is also why God is still her savior, because without that Grace, she would have been born just as urgently sinful.

Whether she is Immaculated Conceive or not is more of a theologumen.. The Orthodox Church says that She is sinless... However I incline towards the belief that she is Immaculated Conceived..
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2010, 04:11:10 PM »
I used to believe this rationale when I was an Orthodox NOT in communion with Rome.  But better minds than me convinced me of the illogical and unpatristic notion that concupisence is necessary for free will to have effect.  If I really believed this, then I would have to admit that Adam and Eve did not have free will.  I would also have to admit that Jesus Christ did not have free will, which would not make him fully human.  Pondering such heterodox consequences was enough to set my mind on the right track.

Blessings,
Marduk

This has to be the clearest picture of the "Immaculate Conception" I've read.

What 'I read' is that Mary, by the grace of God, was born (conceived) fully human. That is because, as I've brought up in a previous thread, to sin is to not be human.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29294.0.html

Now, taking that, just as Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, and then of their own free will, rejected God, Mary was created (conceived) pure, and then of her own free will accepted God. She is still fully human, in fact, she would be more human than any of us. Why? Because of God's grace. Which is also why God is still her savior, because without that Grace, she would have been born just as urgently sinful.

Whether she is Immaculated Conceive or not is more of a theologumen.. The Orthodox Church says that She is sinless... However I incline towards the belief that she is Immaculated Conceived..

I have been assured that folks such as yourself do not exist.  Are you real?

 :)

M.

Offline dcointin

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2010, 07:56:30 PM »
I initially objected to the Immaculate Conception for reasons that I came to understand were heretical.  I assumed that Jesus must have inherited a *corrupt* human nature because it was necessary that he assume one in every way like ours in order to redeem us, and therefore Mary's nature must have been corrupt as well.  However, the nature which he assumed was uncorrupt, like that of Adam before the fall, and it was only necessary that he inherit one that was truly human, not corrupt.  After that realization the Immaculate Conception became much more acceptable to me as a theologial opinion.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2010, 11:11:41 PM »

However I incline towards the belief that she is Immaculated Conceived..

I believe that I was conceived in exactly the same way as the Mother of God.  If She was immaculately conceived, then so was I.  And if She was not immaculately conceived, then neither was I.

Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2010, 11:47:22 PM »

However I incline towards the belief that she is Immaculated Conceived..

I believe that I was conceived in exactly the same way as the Mother of God.  If She was immaculately conceived, then so was I.  And if She was not immaculately conceived, then neither was I.
You were conceived without any stain of original sin? Mary was "full of grace".
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 11:52:34 PM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2010, 12:03:32 AM »

You were conceived without any stain of original sin? Mary was "full of grace".


"Gratia plena" was a terribly bad translation of the Greek!  I blame Saint Jerome.

Even now Mary is not "full of grace" since she is, as are we all, still on the never ending path of theosis, always and eternally becoming by grace what God is by nature.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 12:05:13 AM by Irish Hermit »

Offline stashko

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2010, 12:28:04 AM »

You were conceived without any stain of original sin? Mary was "full of grace".


"Gratia plena" was a terribly bad translation of the Greek!  I blame Saint Jerome.

Even now Mary is not "full of grace" since she is, as are we all, still on the never ending path of theosis, always and eternally becoming by grace what God is by nature.

Fr.....
Don't we all so use  Puna Blagodat, full of grace when we say the Hail Mary [Bogorodica Deva] or that's how i been saying it , is it the wrong way i was saying it all this time...confused...Or did it apply only for the time that She Was overshadowed By the Holy Spirit and Christ Was Conceived in her womb,but after The lords Birth  She had to walk the path towards  theosis like we all have to.....
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 12:42:35 AM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2010, 12:42:27 AM »

You were conceived without any stain of original sin? Mary was "full of grace".


"Gratia plena" was a terribly bad translation of the Greek!  I blame Saint Jerome.

Even now Mary is not "full of grace" since she is, as are we all, still on the never ending path of theosis, always and eternally becoming by grace what God is by nature.

Fr.....
Don't we all so use  Puna Blagodat, full of grace when we say the Hail Mary [Bogorodica Deva] or thats how i been saying it ,  is it the wrong way i was saying it all this time...confused...

If you're praying in Serbian it is "Blagodatna Marija" - no "puna"!  :)


Offline stashko

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2010, 12:46:16 AM »

You were conceived without any stain of original sin? Mary was "full of grace".


"Gratia plena" was a terribly bad translation of the Greek!  I blame Saint Jerome.

Even now Mary is not "full of grace" since she is, as are we all, still on the never ending path of theosis, always and eternally becoming by grace what God is by nature.

Fr.....
Don't we all so use  Puna Blagodat, full of grace when we say the Hail Mary [Bogorodica Deva] or thats how i been saying it ,  is it the wrong way i was saying it all this time...confused...

If you're praying in Serbian it is "Blagodatna Marija" - no "puna"!  :)


Fr...
Thanks
So all this time i was saying it wrong How did that Happen ??? ???I must of confused the latin Hail Mary  as the Orthodox one..
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 12:53:12 AM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline theistgal

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2010, 12:50:07 AM »
That's how it's translated in my "Pocket Prayer Book" from the Antiochian OrthodoxChurch.

So is this an official EO teaching (that Mary is NOT "full of grace") or just one man's opinion?
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2010, 12:52:07 AM »
That's how it's translated in my "Pocket Prayer Book" from the Antiochian OrthodoxChurch.

So is this an official EO teaching (that Mary is NOT "full of grace") or just one man's opinion?

If she is full of grace, as of right now, then she has come to the end of theosis.  She is fully divine!   A startling thought!   

Offline theistgal

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2010, 12:59:06 AM »
Once again:  is it the official teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church that the Angel Gabriel did not address Mary as "full of grace", and thus that no one should use that phrase in prayers addressed to her - or is that simply your opinion?
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline stashko

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2010, 01:03:13 AM »
Ill Blame the roman Catholics for this ,when i had Direct tv Satellite  i watched ewtn they pushed there version of the hail Mary, Like there was no tomorrow..i got infected by there version.... ;D
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 01:05:27 AM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline theistgal

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2010, 01:08:58 AM »
This is just silly.  I kniw you guys hate agreeing with the RC on anything, but come on, please at least acknowledge the fact that most EO prayer books in English use the phrase "full of grace" - and don't blame that on the Latins when you're the ones who wrote the prayers!!
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2010, 01:09:42 AM »
Once again:  is it the official teaching of the Eastern Orthodox Church that the Angel Gabriel did not address Mary as "full of grace",


Yes, It is the official teaching of the Orthodox Church that the Archangels diod not address the Mother of God as "full of grace."   WE know this from our Greek scriptures, the original languiage iof the new Testament, in Saint Luke;s account of the Archangel;s conversation with the Mother of God.,.

Quote
and thus that no one should use that phrase in prayers addressed to her - or is that simply your opinion?

When I sing the Hail Mary, I sing it in this form:

Virgin Mother of God, Rejoice!
Mary full of grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
For thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls.


I have no problems using "full of grace" (even though it is a bad bad translation of the Archangel's words) and to my mind it has no connection at all with the teaching of the Immaculate Conception.

Offline theistgal

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2010, 01:10:58 AM »
(and sorry for the typos - once again I'm stuck on my Palm while hubby hogs the PC! :D )
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2010, 01:15:08 AM »
OK, I didn't say it had anything to do with the IC either - I'm not arguing that point - just that I found it strange you would say "full of grace" is incorrect when virtually every EO prayerbook & Bible translation uses it.

Seems kinda unfair to blame us Latins for *your own translations* ...
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2010, 01:15:34 AM »
This is just silly.  I kniw you guys hate agreeing with the RC on anything, but come on, please at least acknowledge the fact that most EO prayer books in English use the phrase "full of grace" - and don't blame that on the Latins when you're the ones who wrote the prayers!!

Yes, nobody is saying that the English versions don't use "full of grace"  - and I will sing it in English in church and at home straight after singing the Greek or Slavonic version whcih is *not* "full of grace."   But "full of grace" is certainly NOT what Gabriel said to the Mother of God.  We are just kind of stuck in English with Saint Jerome's bad translation which is now used throughout the Western world in many languages.

But if you check the better and more recent translations of the Gospels they are doing away with "full of grace."

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2010, 01:31:54 AM »
Wow I just checked for myself in my interlinear koine greek/ english NT and it does not say Full of Grace. That was news to me. Of course I say it but I too never thought it was related in any way to the IC.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2010, 04:04:37 AM »
I initially objected to the Immaculate Conception for reasons that I came to understand were heretical.  I assumed that Jesus must have inherited a *corrupt* human nature because it was necessary that he assume one in every way like ours in order to redeem us, and therefore Mary's nature must have been corrupt as well.  However, the nature which he assumed was uncorrupt, like that of Adam before the fall, and it was only necessary that he inherit one that was truly human, not corrupt.  After that realization the Immaculate Conception became much more acceptable to me as a theologial opinion.

I am very glad to hear this.  There are actually several ways to "understand" the Immaculate Conception that can lead one down some very rocky paths theologically. 

It is a very rich Christological teaching actually.  There was a time when I was indifferent to it, until I found the teaching being challenged in some very interesting ways.  In defending against those challenges I learned a great deal and am now far more attached to the teaching than I ever anticipated being in my life time.

M.

Offline Azul

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2010, 04:24:19 AM »
I used to believe this rationale when I was an Orthodox NOT in communion with Rome.  But better minds than me convinced me of the illogical and unpatristic notion that concupisence is necessary for free will to have effect.  If I really believed this, then I would have to admit that Adam and Eve did not have free will.  I would also have to admit that Jesus Christ did not have free will, which would not make him fully human.  Pondering such heterodox consequences was enough to set my mind on the right track.

Blessings,
Marduk

This has to be the clearest picture of the "Immaculate Conception" I've read.

What 'I read' is that Mary, by the grace of God, was born (conceived) fully human. That is because, as I've brought up in a previous thread, to sin is to not be human.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29294.0.html

Now, taking that, just as Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, and then of their own free will, rejected God, Mary was created (conceived) pure, and then of her own free will accepted God. She is still fully human, in fact, she would be more human than any of us. Why? Because of God's grace. Which is also why God is still her savior, because without that Grace, she would have been born just as urgently sinful.

Whether she is Immaculated Conceive or not is more of a theologumen.. The Orthodox Church says that She is sinless... However I incline towards the belief that she is Immaculated Conceived..

I have been assured that folks such as yourself do not exist.  Are you real?

 :)

M.

What folks such as myself?
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Theophilos78

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2010, 04:32:52 AM »
This is the Orthodox Christian approach to the dogma of the Immaculate Conception:
 
http://www.oodegr.com/english/papismos/barthol_immac_conception.htm
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Offline Azul

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2010, 05:52:10 AM »
Mary was born with the Original Sin.
Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi

Offline Alpo

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2010, 09:20:16 AM »
Quote from: partriarch Bartholomew
...original sin passes on a moral stain or a legal responsibility to the descendants of Adam...

Ahoy, Catholics! Would you consider this as an accurate description of your faith?
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline John Larocque

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2010, 10:32:48 AM »
This is an interesting perspective. It ties in the RCC decision not to dogmatize the "death of Mary" to the IC.

http://www.pravmir.com/article_1074.html

Quote
The Roman Catholic West tries not to even think of the "death of Mary."  Its doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, where the penal Original Sin (inherited guilt for Adam's sin) does not "infect" the soul of Mary, owing to Her exalted future role as Mother of the Saviour.And since Adam's sin is what brought death into the world, if Mary didn't "contract it," then how can she be said to have died i.e. an experience of punishment for a sin she had no share in?

In defining the doctrine of the Assumption, Pope Pius XII actually left open the question of whether Mary actually "died" or not.  In a sense, he was constrained by the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception to do so.

This explains why only the taking of the Mother of God into heaven is celebrated by the Roman Church and why there is no mention or commemoration of her death.

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2010, 10:46:04 AM »
Jesus died too, so did He also inherit the ancestral curse?
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Schultz

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2010, 11:02:58 AM »
Jesus died too, so did He also inherit the ancestral curse?

Jesus died/was killed because He, who was like us in all ways but sin (cf Heb 4:15), "took the sin of the world upon Himself".
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 11:04:30 AM by Schultz »
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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2010, 11:04:07 AM »
Thanks, Schultz.  So is it possible the Theotokos didn't have to die, but chose to, in imitation of her Son?
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Schultz

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2010, 11:14:35 AM »
Thanks, Schultz.  So is it possible the Theotokos didn't have to die, but chose to, in imitation of her Son?

That I don't know.  I leave such speculation to the theologians.
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Offline stashko

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2010, 11:29:41 AM »
Doesn't the Scripture tells us  says, Its Given to Man Once to live Then To Die then the judgment...
Someone May bring Up the 2 Holy Prophets that didn't die ,but went to heaven..
But they Have to Return to earth as the two witnesses And be Slain......So even they have to die...

Doesn't Scripture also say there is no man that liveth and sinneth not, other than our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.....

How Can the Holy And Blessed Theotokos Be any different  From them and Us when it comes to Death.......
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 11:44:38 AM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2010, 12:13:26 PM »
Question: Why wouldn't the Theotokos need to die?

Thanks, Schultz.  So is it possible the Theotokos didn't have to die, but chose to, in imitation of her Son?

Offline Papist

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2010, 12:26:00 PM »

You were conceived without any stain of original sin? Mary was "full of grace".


"Gratia plena" was a terribly bad translation of the Greek!  I blame Saint Jerome.

Even now Mary is not "full of grace" since she is, as are we all, still on the never ending path of theosis, always and eternally becoming by grace what God is by nature.
Actually, "gratia plena" was a reasonable latin rendition of the greek term.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline dcointin

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2010, 12:41:27 PM »
May I ask why you consider “full of grace” to be such a bad translation?

The word used translated as “full of grace” in Luke 1:28 is “κεχαριτωμένη”.  It comes from the verb “χαριτόω”, which means “1) to make graceful  1a) charming, lovely, agreeable  2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour  3) to honour with blessings” (www.greekbible.com).  The verb is a perfect tense, passive voice, participle.  A more full translation might be something like this:

“one who has been made and continues to be blessed, favoured, or full of grace”

Given how cumbersome that would be in English, I think “full of grace” is a perfectly acceptable translation.  Most translations that I checked translated it “favoured one”, which is a very poor rendering in my opinion given the depth of the Greek.

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2010, 01:11:50 PM »
May I ask why you consider “full of grace” to be such a bad translation?

The word used translated as “full of grace” in Luke 1:28 is “κεχαριτωμένη”.  It comes from the verb “χαριτόω”, which means “1) to make graceful  1a) charming, lovely, agreeable  2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour  3) to honour with blessings” (www.greekbible.com).  The verb is a perfect tense, passive voice, participle.  A more full translation might be something like this:

“one who has been made and continues to be blessed, favoured, or full of grace”

Given how cumbersome that would be in English, I think “full of grace” is a perfectly acceptable translation.  Most translations that I checked translated it “favoured one”, which is a very poor rendering in my opinion given the depth of the Greek.
Well stated.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2010, 01:14:53 PM »
Quote from: partriarch Bartholomew
...original sin passes on a moral stain or a legal responsibility to the descendants of Adam...

Ahoy, Catholics! Would you consider this as an accurate description of your faith?

No.  His use of the term moral stain is not accurate.  The stain or blemish of the ancestral sin that the patristic fathers speak of  is more accurately characterized as an ontological stain or a corruption of our original state of justice and integrity.  Another way of saying it is that material creation was suffered to endure corruption and death and our souls were corrupted by a loss of original justice.  This is not a moral condition but an ontological condition.

So when the Catholic Church refers to the "stain" of original sin they are talking about this loss of original justice, or a darkening of the intellect or nous and a weakening of the will.

So that when the Catholic Church talks about the Theotokos being free from the stain of original sin they are saying that she was conceived in the state of original justice meaning that there never was a darkening of her nous and a weakening of her will.

But because she is fully human, she will have to endure the material results of the ancestral sin which are corruption and death.  The assumption of Theotokos into heaven is a miraculous act, and not a natural consequence of her state of being in the world.

Mary


Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2010, 01:19:48 PM »
Highly favoured one vs full of grace? Thats a pretty big difference. What is grace and what happens to one full of Grace? This maybe another key difference between East and West. Thomism vs the teaching of the Cappodocians and St Gregory Palamas. For me there is only uncreated grace, the Divine Energies.

Offline Papist

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2010, 01:33:51 PM »
Highly favoured one vs full of grace? Thats a pretty big difference. What is grace and what happens to one full of Grace? This maybe another key difference between East and West. Thomism vs the teaching of the Cappodocians and St Gregory Palamas. For me there is only uncreated grace, the Divine Energies.

Read this, Posted by dcointin:

May I ask why you consider “full of grace” to be such a bad translation?

The word used translated as “full of grace” in Luke 1:28 is “κεχαριτωμένη”.  It comes from the verb “χαριτόω”, which means “1) to make graceful  1a) charming, lovely, agreeable  2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour  3) to honour with blessings” (www.greekbible.com).  The verb is a perfect tense, passive voice, participle.  A more full translation might be something like this:

“one who has been made and continues to be blessed, favoured, or full of grace”

Given how cumbersome that would be in English, I think “full of grace” is a perfectly acceptable translation.  Most translations that I checked translated it “favoured one”, which is a very poor rendering in my opinion given the depth of the Greek.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2010, 01:41:11 PM »
well you are free to your opinion. My koine NT translates it differently as highly favoured one. I believe this the most accurate translation. Ichecked with my wife, a classicist and she felt that was the most accurate translation.  I am of the opinion that full of grace is the poor rendering not the other way around. So are you saying that the Theotokos was full of grace and therefore attained theosis and was in no further need of God's uncreated energies? Please explain. I am interested in your thoughts. Thanks.

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2010, 01:43:09 PM »
well you are free to your opinion. My koine NT translates it differently as highly favoured one. I believe this the most accurate translation. Ichecked with my wife, a classicist and she felt that was the most accurate translation.  I am of the opinion that full of grace is the poor rendering not the other way around. So are you saying that the Theotokos was full of grace and therefore attained theosis and was in no further need of God's uncreated energies? Please explain. I am interested in your thoughts. Thanks.
We believe that Mary was in a state of Grace all of her life. If you re wondering if she was no longer in need of God's Grace, can I ask you, do you think a saint in heaven is no longer in need of God's grace?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #41 on: September 01, 2010, 01:48:34 PM »
That is an excellent question. I will need to ponder that. To be fair i may be reading to much into what he wrote that is why i am asking. I should have wrote no longer in need of aquiring God's grace.

well you are free to your opinion. My koine NT translates it differently as highly favoured one. I believe this the most accurate translation. Ichecked with my wife, a classicist and she felt that was the most accurate translation.  I am of the opinion that full of grace is the poor rendering not the other way around. So are you saying that the Theotokos was full of grace and therefore attained theosis and was in no further need of God's uncreated energies? Please explain. I am interested in your thoughts. Thanks.
We believe that Mary was in a state of Grace all of her life. If you re wondering if she was no longer in need of God's Grace, can I ask you, do you think a saint in heaven is no longer in need of God's grace?

Offline Papist

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2010, 02:00:09 PM »
That is an excellent question. I will need to ponder that. To be fair i may be reading to much into what he wrote that is why i am asking. I should have wrote no longer in need of aquiring God's grace.

well you are free to your opinion. My koine NT translates it differently as highly favoured one. I believe this the most accurate translation. Ichecked with my wife, a classicist and she felt that was the most accurate translation.  I am of the opinion that full of grace is the poor rendering not the other way around. So are you saying that the Theotokos was full of grace and therefore attained theosis and was in no further need of God's uncreated energies? Please explain. I am interested in your thoughts. Thanks.
We believe that Mary was in a state of Grace all of her life. If you re wondering if she was no longer in need of God's Grace, can I ask you, do you think a saint in heaven is no longer in need of God's grace?
If I am in a state of Grace, I still needs God's grace.
I believe the same would be true of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2010, 02:05:00 PM »
I guess my question to him was more along the lines... Are you equating the "full of grace" with theosis? I am just trying to make sure i understood what he was saying.

That is an excellent question. I will need to ponder that. To be fair i may be reading to much into what he wrote that is why i am asking. I should have wrote no longer in need of aquiring God's grace.

well you are free to your opinion. My koine NT translates it differently as highly favoured one. I believe this the most accurate translation. Ichecked with my wife, a classicist and she felt that was the most accurate translation.  I am of the opinion that full of grace is the poor rendering not the other way around. So are you saying that the Theotokos was full of grace and therefore attained theosis and was in no further need of God's uncreated energies? Please explain. I am interested in your thoughts. Thanks.
We believe that Mary was in a state of Grace all of her life. If you re wondering if she was no longer in need of God's Grace, can I ask you, do you think a saint in heaven is no longer in need of God's grace?
If I am in a state of Grace, I still needs God's grace.
I believe the same would be true of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Offline Papist

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Re: Mary Theotokos and the Immaculate Conception
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2010, 02:05:51 PM »
I guess my question to him was more along the lines... Are you equating the "full of grace" with theosis? I am just trying to make sure i understood what he was saying.

That is an excellent question. I will need to ponder that. To be fair i may be reading to much into what he wrote that is why i am asking. I should have wrote no longer in need of aquiring God's grace.

well you are free to your opinion. My koine NT translates it differently as highly favoured one. I believe this the most accurate translation. Ichecked with my wife, a classicist and she felt that was the most accurate translation.  I am of the opinion that full of grace is the poor rendering not the other way around. So are you saying that the Theotokos was full of grace and therefore attained theosis and was in no further need of God's uncreated energies? Please explain. I am interested in your thoughts. Thanks.
We believe that Mary was in a state of Grace all of her life. If you re wondering if she was no longer in need of God's Grace, can I ask you, do you think a saint in heaven is no longer in need of God's grace?
If I am in a state of Grace, I still needs God's grace.
I believe the same would be true of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Isn't theosis an eternal process?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.