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Author Topic: Orthodoxy's social niche in America... - A Catholic's Response  (Read 3066 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2010, 04:47:58 PM »

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.

And to teach against the Catholic Church, and try to lead people away from the truth of Catholic teaching, is formally heretical behavior.

According to whom? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2010, 05:40:39 PM »

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.

And to teach against the Catholic Church, and try to lead people away from the truth of Catholic teaching, is formally heretical behavior.

According to whom? Roll Eyes

The Vatican: it has said so ex cathedra, and so it is infallible.

Of course, to believe that is heretical. LOL.

Really, what heretics admit that they teach heresy, formally or informally (an inane distinction in what we are talking about).
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« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2010, 05:41:48 PM »

Well, carry on with your oh-so-irrefutable arguments as Grand Apologist for Online OrthodoxyTM. I'm not stopping you. Perhaps you can ask the Pope to apologize for that Catholic forum's banning of you for shining too much light on those poor ignorant souls there.

And just to be clear, I wasn't calling OC.net in general a snakepit, just (sometimes) the RC/EO subforum. Orthodox can be quite pleasant and charitable in other areas of OC.net.

Good day.
oh..okay... My personal experience is that when the points at issue are debated in a scholarly manner, the Orthodox position seems to be more solid. I don't think we are shining a light on poor souls, I just think we have a good case to make.



Thanks for this. I was offended by what I thought was the smugness of the previous post, and I like this much better.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.As an historian myself, I certainly know that controversies from deep in the past are very complex and a number of starkly different interpretations can be argued about them. My own conclusion happens to be different from yours, but I respect your view.And certainly some very good people that I respect (Met. Kallistos Ware, Jaroslav Pelikan, my own thesis adviser Florin Curta) have held it.

God bless.

Are you a professional historian and if so, what is your specialty?

Not professional. Just undergraduate and graduate work. My area of focus was medieval cultural European history.
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« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2010, 05:44:10 PM »

We are not trying to entice Catholics into the Church since the Church is Catholic, as the Creed states.  As to the Roman Church that calls itself “Catholic”, we pray for your repentance and long for the day that you enter into the Body of Christ.  I choose not to coddle you and speak as I feel because there are enough people who call themselves “Orthodox” who will tell you that it is all alright, we are both parts of the Body of Christ.  As such, there is no need for you to repent.  Such people are vipers and wish nothing other than the destruction of your soul.  These are the ones that “hate” you, and you truly and individually.  Has it ever occurred to you that those of us who hate those that deceive you do so out of love for you?  If we didn’t care about those that were deceived, there would be no need to even acknowledge your church, much less hate it.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If you cared about Catholic Christians you would not drive them away by stating that you hate their Church.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I can neither gather nor drive away.  That is done by the Holy Spirit.  Your statement is false.  It is just like saying that I show my love for an abused child by saying I love his abuser.  No, even in the secular world we throw those that abuse children is prison.  Why should we show any love for an organization that abuses both the body and soul of its members?  The problem with Christians today is that they do not stand up for what they believe and call out those that pervert the Truth.  And once more, my words do not show a lack of care for Catholic Christians.  Only the Orthodox are Catholic and the Orthodox do not bow to Rome.  What I hate is the religious organization that claims to be Catholic but is not, just as Christ says about those that claim to be Jews but are not.  Just as the true Jews recognized their Savior while the false Jews held on to their religious organization that stood against Christ, so do the members of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church recognize the Truth and correctly believe (Orthodoxia) and do not cling to a political organization 1000 years removed from the Church.  Just as the Holy Apostle Paul lamented over the Jews that rejected Christ, so do I lament over those that reject Christ’s Church (and this includes members of my own family).  However, I am comforted in the words of Christ that He has sheep that are not in the fold of His Holy Orthodox Church.  It is because of this that I will continue to love those sheep in other folds while I will continue to hate those that imprison them in those folds with their lies and deception rather than pointing them to the True Fold of our Lord.  To do otherwise would be to betray both those sheep and their Shepherd.
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« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2010, 05:45:38 PM »

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.

And to teach against the Catholic Church, and try to lead people away from the truth of Catholic teaching, is formally heretical behavior.

According to whom? Roll Eyes
Jesus.
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« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2010, 05:47:49 PM »

We are not trying to entice Catholics into the Church since the Church is Catholic, as the Creed states.  As to the Roman Church that calls itself “Catholic”, we pray for your repentance and long for the day that you enter into the Body of Christ.  I choose not to coddle you and speak as I feel because there are enough people who call themselves “Orthodox” who will tell you that it is all alright, we are both parts of the Body of Christ.  As such, there is no need for you to repent.  Such people are vipers and wish nothing other than the destruction of your soul.  These are the ones that “hate” you, and you truly and individually.  Has it ever occurred to you that those of us who hate those that deceive you do so out of love for you?  If we didn’t care about those that were deceived, there would be no need to even acknowledge your church, much less hate it.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If you cared about Catholic Christians you would not drive them away by stating that you hate their Church.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I can neither gather nor drive away.  That is done by the Holy Spirit.  Your statement is false.  It is just like saying that I show my love for an abused child by saying I love his abuser.  No, even in the secular world we throw those that abuse children is prison.  Why should we show any love for an organization that abuses both the body and soul of its members?  The problem with Christians today is that they do not stand up for what they believe and call out those that pervert the Truth.  And once more, my words do not show a lack of care for Catholic Christians.  Only the Orthodox are Catholic and the Orthodox do not bow to Rome.  What I hate is the religious organization that claims to be Catholic but is not, just as Christ says about those that claim to be Jews but are not.  Just as the true Jews recognized their Savior while the false Jews held on to their religious organization that stood against Christ, so do the members of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church recognize the Truth and correctly believe (Orthodoxia) and do not cling to a political organization 1000 years removed from the Church.  Just as the Holy Apostle Paul lamented over the Jews that rejected Christ, so do I lament over those that reject Christ’s Church (and this includes members of my own family).  However, I am comforted in the words of Christ that He has sheep that are not in the fold of His Holy Orthodox Church.  It is because of this that I will continue to love those sheep in other folds while I will continue to hate those that imprison them in those folds with their lies and deception rather than pointing them to the True Fold of our Lord.  To do otherwise would be to betray both those sheep and their Shepherd.

Your analogy does not follow. We are not abused children, but adults, who after reseach, study, and most importantly, prayer, have come to the belief that the Catholic Church is Christ's Church. We choose to be where we are. I have taught catechism from time to time. Does that make me one of the decievers that you hate?
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« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2010, 05:49:22 PM »

And loving its heresies is going to bring them to Orthodoxy how?

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.

And to teach against the Catholic Church, and try to lead people away from the truth of Catholic teaching, is formally heretical behavior.

Better we should spend our limited resources on looking at the ways in which Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church are different expressions of the same core truths.

That would be a waste of time, as they are not.  I know, that upsets the whole sui juris set up and the whole lung enticement, but Truth is Truth.

Quote
  It can be done.  Some of your Orthodox hierarchs have done it.

You can have Isodore of Kiev, and we'll keep St Mark of Ephesus.
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« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2010, 05:50:05 PM »

And loving its heresies is going to bring them to Orthodoxy how?

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.

And to teach against the Catholic Church, and try to lead people away from the truth of Catholic teaching, is formally heretical behavior.

Better we should spend our limited resources on looking at the ways in which Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church are different expressions of the same core truths.

That would be a waste of time, as they are not.  I know, that upsets the whole sui juris set up and the whole lung enticement, but Truth is Truth.

Quote
  It can be done.  Some of your Orthodox hierarchs have done it.

You can have Isodore of Kiev, and we'll keep St Mark of Ephesus.
You can keep Mark of Ephesus. We will keep Sts. Peter and Paul.
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« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2010, 05:52:42 PM »

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.

And to teach against the Catholic Church, and try to lead people away from the truth of Catholic teaching, is formally heretical behavior.

According to whom? Roll Eyes
Jesus.
Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men.

I have to admit, I never noticed before that Jesus says that in two Gospels.
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« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2010, 05:54:49 PM »



As an inquirer what I noticed was that on a casual level of debate the Catholics had a lot of ammo in terms of quotes from the Fathers etc. If you stop there, you may be correct and I am sure amateur debaters use a lot of put downs and miss representations. But I had no horse in that race. I saw time and again that once folks debated past the boiler plate quotes and added context and a fuller grasp of what was being debated, I never saw the Catholics win. Never. Not once.

 


I will take you at  your word on this matter, but I would say that I think many many Catholics are poor apologists when it comes to Catholic vs. Eastern Orthodox debates because so few Catholics have had the kind of experience with EOs that they have had with protestants. Ask any given Catholic, and they are more likely have debated with a Protestant than with an EO. Its all about the numbers in the situation. There are just not as many EOs as there are protestants. Add that to the fact that the Catholic Church has worked so hard on ecumenical relations with EOs, that not many Catholics see EOs as a sheep stealing threat. I would submit that if Catholics encountered EOs more often, they might be better at debating them.
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« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2010, 05:55:25 PM »

And loving its heresies is going to bring them to Orthodoxy how?

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.

And to teach against the Catholic Church, and try to lead people away from the truth of Catholic teaching, is formally heretical behavior.

Better we should spend our limited resources on looking at the ways in which Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church are different expressions of the same core truths.

That would be a waste of time, as they are not.  I know, that upsets the whole sui juris set up and the whole lung enticement, but Truth is Truth.

Quote
  It can be done.  Some of your Orthodox hierarchs have done it.

You can have Isodore of Kiev, and we'll keep St Mark of Ephesus.
You can keep Mark of Ephesus. We will keep Sts. Peter and Paul.
Yes, what relics you didn't have and took with you when you left their Church, our Church, you sent your Crusaders to come and steal.

But their testimony you cannot touch.
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« Reply #56 on: August 31, 2010, 05:56:16 PM »

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.

And to teach against the Catholic Church, and try to lead people away from the truth of Catholic teaching, is formally heretical behavior.

According to whom? Roll Eyes
Jesus.
Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men.

I have to admit, I never noticed before that Jesus says that in two Gospels.
"And the gates of  hell shall not prevail against it."
"[The Holy Spirit] will guide you into all truth."
And St. Paul, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, "the Church of God, the pillar and foundation of truth."
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« Reply #57 on: August 31, 2010, 05:59:00 PM »

And loving its heresies is going to bring them to Orthodoxy how?

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.

And to teach against the Catholic Church, and try to lead people away from the truth of Catholic teaching, is formally heretical behavior.

Better we should spend our limited resources on looking at the ways in which Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church are different expressions of the same core truths.

That would be a waste of time, as they are not.  I know, that upsets the whole sui juris set up and the whole lung enticement, but Truth is Truth.

Quote
  It can be done.  Some of your Orthodox hierarchs have done it.

You can have Isodore of Kiev, and we'll keep St Mark of Ephesus.
You can keep Mark of Ephesus. We will keep Sts. Peter and Paul.
Yes, what relics you didn't have and took with you when you left their Church, our Church, you sent your Crusaders to come and steal.

But their testimony you cannot touch.
We didn't leave your Church. You tried to excommunicate the Pope (LOL) and found yourselves outside of the Ark of salvation. As for the relics of Sts. Peter and Paul, they really belong to our Church and not yours:
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

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« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2010, 06:08:38 PM »

And loving its heresies is going to bring them to Orthodoxy how?

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.
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« Reply #59 on: August 31, 2010, 07:46:45 PM »

Well, carry on with your oh-so-irrefutable arguments as Grand Apologist for Online OrthodoxyTM. I'm not stopping you. Perhaps you can ask the Pope to apologize for that Catholic forum's banning of you for shining too much light on those poor ignorant souls there.

And just to be clear, I wasn't calling OC.net in general a snakepit, just (sometimes) the RC/EO subforum. Orthodox can be quite pleasant and charitable in other areas of OC.net.

Good day.
oh..okay... My personal experience is that when the points at issue are debated in a scholarly manner, the Orthodox position seems to be more solid. I don't think we are shining a light on poor souls, I just think we have a good case to make.



Thanks for this. I was offended by what I thought was the smugness of the previous post, and I like this much better.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.As an historian myself, I certainly know that controversies from deep in the past are very complex and a number of starkly different interpretations can be argued about them. My own conclusion happens to be different from yours, but I respect your view.And certainly some very good people that I respect (Met. Kallistos Ware, Jaroslav Pelikan, my own thesis adviser Florin Curta) have held it.

God bless.

Are you a professional historian and if so, what is your specialty?

Not professional. Just undergraduate and graduate work. My area of focus was medieval cultural European history.

Thanks. I meant  to include having a degree. Very cool.
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« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2010, 07:51:03 PM »

And loving its heresies is going to bring them to Orthodoxy how?

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.

And to teach against the Catholic Church, and try to lead people away from the truth of Catholic teaching, is formally heretical behavior.

Better we should spend our limited resources on looking at the ways in which Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church are different expressions of the same core truths.

That would be a waste of time, as they are not.  I know, that upsets the whole sui juris set up and the whole lung enticement, but Truth is Truth.

Quote
  It can be done.  Some of your Orthodox hierarchs have done it.

You can have Isodore of Kiev, and we'll keep St Mark of Ephesus.
You can keep Mark of Ephesus. We will keep Sts. Peter and Paul.

I may be hallucinating but I could swear we fast for several weeks before the feast of SS Peter and Paul each year.

Btw, Mark of Ephesus is my patron Saint.
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« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2010, 08:00:35 PM »


We didn't leave your Church. You tried to excommunicate the Pope (LOL) and found yourselves outside of the Ark of salvation. As for the relics of Sts. Peter and Paul, they really belong to our Church and not yours:
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

Yes.  It there is no part of the patristic Tradition and Scripture and the communion of saints, east and west, that is closed off to the Catholic in communion with the Papal See.  We are able to draw from the entire tradition.  Not just a portion of it.

Mary
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« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2010, 10:07:07 PM »

Is it at all possible for EO's and RC's to have discussions on the Internet that *don't* degenerate into mutual insult-flinging sessions?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2010, 10:32:16 PM »

Is it at all possible for EO's and RC's to have discussions on the Internet that *don't* degenerate into mutual insult-flinging sessions?  Roll Eyes

Yes, but that's not the direction that temptation takes us in.  Oh, well... back to the spiritual "drawing board."
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« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2010, 04:04:57 AM »

And loving its heresies is going to bring them to Orthodoxy how?

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.
Shocked

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.

Not one.  Not even a little one.

If there were I would convert to Orthodoxy, but there are none so I elect not to participate in a useless and sinful schism.

Mary
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« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2010, 10:15:11 AM »

And loving its heresies is going to bring them to Orthodoxy how?

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.
Shocked

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.

Not one.  Not even a little one.
Which standard are you using to define "heretical"? Since you are in communion with the Pope, then it goes without saying that, from a Roman Catholic perspective, there are no formal teachings within that communion that are heretical.

Or, are you saying that, even from an Orthodox perspective, there are no formal teachings that are heretical?
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