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Author Topic: Orthodoxy's social niche in America... - A Catholic's Response  (Read 2979 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« on: August 29, 2010, 02:13:39 PM »

It should be obvious that I am neither a believer in the "Branch Theory" or the "Left and Right Lung Theory".  Perhaps it is my Lutheran background that causes me to hate the RC organization (not its people) with such a vengeance.  Or perhaps it is seeing with my own eyes how that organization has soiled the name "Christian" in the eyes of the people of other faiths.  If this causes me to be moderated, so be it.  As Luther once said when on trial by the Antichrist, "Here I stand, I can do none other.  God help me!".  It has always saddened me that Luther did not turn to the "Church of the East" that he wrote of so respectfully in his writings.  Thankfully the Church of the East was there for me, and it is that Church's "theology" that I confess.  

Warms my heart to know that there are no Orthodox sinners, because that is the only conclusion I can draw from your comparison.  

How many murders must I commit before I am a murderer?  How many times must I steal before I am a thief?  How many times must I lie before I am a liar?

Because there are more cases of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church does not make her moral theology better or worse.  It simply means there are MORE Catholics and more Catholic institutions, and so statistically there are more cases of  abuse to be found than there are in Orthodoxy because there are more people and more institutional opportunities.

Also my Baptism as a Catholic resulted in an ontological change in me as a person.  When you HATE my Church, you HATE my faith, and you HATE my sacraments, and you HATE me.

Are all Orthodox as free with their moral relativism as you are?

Mary



Post modified merely to change text in subject line...  Nothing more...  -PtA
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 08:36:36 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

tuesdayschild
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2010, 02:37:47 PM »

Also my Baptism as a Catholic resulted in an ontological change in me as a person.  When you HATE my Church, you HATE my faith, and you HATE my sacraments, and you HATE me.

L'eglise c'est moi!
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2010, 02:47:22 PM »

Also my Baptism as a Catholic resulted in an ontological change in me as a person.  When you HATE my Church, you HATE my faith, and you HATE my sacraments, and you HATE me.

L'eglise c'est moi!

English, please.
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2010, 02:53:58 PM »

English, please.

If I was Russian, I would call you "nekulturnoi" now. Absolutist French King Louis XIV said about himself "L'etat, c'est moi". (The state is me). Tuesdayschild variated on that by saying "The church is me", in order to show the absurdity of elijahmaria's statement.
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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2010, 03:01:52 PM »

English, please.

If I was Russian, I would call you "nekulturnoi" now. Absolutist French King Louis XIV said about himself "L'etat, c'est moi". (The state is me). Tuesdayschild variated on that by saying "The church is me", in order to show the absurdity of elijahmaria's statement.

I've heard of Louis XIV but my knowledge of French is 0.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2010, 03:11:40 PM »

Also my Baptism as a Catholic resulted in an ontological change in me as a person.  When you HATE my Church, you HATE my faith, and you HATE my sacraments, and you HATE me.

L'eglise c'est moi!

LOL...baloney!!

That is not at all what I said.

I said that there is precious little difference between hating the sin and hating the sinner...and so there is even less difference when it comes to membership in the Body.  If you hate the body it is impossible to exempt the members.  To claim to do so is simply mad...as in detached from reality.

M.
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tuesdayschild
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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2010, 03:15:16 PM »

Also my Baptism as a Catholic resulted in an ontological change in me as a person.  When you HATE my Church, you HATE my faith, and you HATE my sacraments, and you HATE me.

L'eglise c'est moi!

English, please.

"The church is me," as Gorazd explained.  (Is "English only" a forum rule?)
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tuesdayschild
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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2010, 03:42:01 PM »

Also my Baptism as a Catholic resulted in an ontological change in me as a person.  When you HATE my Church, you HATE my faith, and you HATE my sacraments, and you HATE me.

L'eglise c'est moi!

LOL...baloney!!

That is not at all what I said.

I said that there is precious little difference between hating the sin and hating the sinner...and so there is even less difference when it comes to membership in the Body.  If you hate the body it is impossible to exempt the members.  To claim to do so is simply mad...as in detached from reality.

M.

For the sake of argument, I offer this falsehood: "I hate the Roman Catholic Church."

Mary is a member of the Roman Catholic Church
I hate the Roman Catholic Church
Therefore, I hate Mary.

Second figure syllogism, invalid mood: False conclusion.
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2010, 03:43:32 PM »

"The church is me," as Gorazd explained.  (Is "English only" a forum rule?)

For non- discussions there is Foreign Language Forum.
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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2010, 04:12:29 PM »

It should be obvious that I am neither a believer in the "Branch Theory" or the "Left and Right Lung Theory".  Perhaps it is my Lutheran background that causes me to hate the RC organization (not its people) with such a vengeance.  Or perhaps it is seeing with my own eyes how that organization has soiled the name "Christian" in the eyes of the people of other faiths.  If this causes me to be moderated, so be it.  As Luther once said when on trial by the Antichrist, "Here I stand, I can do none other.  God help me!".  It has always saddened me that Luther did not turn to the "Church of the East" that he wrote of so respectfully in his writings.  Thankfully the Church of the East was there for me, and it is that Church's "theology" that I confess.  

Hate is a strong word.  Are you sure you mean hate, even for the "organization"?  
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 04:13:16 PM by FatherHLL » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2010, 04:20:57 PM »

"The church is me," as Gorazd explained.  (Is "English only" a forum rule?)

For non- discussions there is Foreign Language Forum.

"L'état c'est moi" is such a famous saying that one should be able to quote it in any language.
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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2010, 04:29:20 PM »

"The church is me," as Gorazd explained.  (Is "English only" a forum rule?)

For non- discussions there is Foreign Language Forum.

"L'état c'est moi" is such a famous saying that one should be able to quote it in any language.
But this forum does require that, outside of the Foreign Language boards, conversations must be carried out in English.  The use of a language other than English is permitted here, but it must be accompanied by an English translation.

As to this "famous saying", I've never heard it before.
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2010, 05:05:21 PM »

"The church is me," as Gorazd explained.  (Is "English only" a forum rule?)

For non- discussions there is Foreign Language Forum.

"L'état c'est moi" is such a famous saying that one should be able to quote it in any language.
But this forum does require that, outside of the Foreign Language boards, conversations must be carried out in English.  The use of a language other than English is permitted here, but it must be accompanied by an English translation.

As to this "famous saying", I've never heard it before.

See: http://www.bartleby.com/81/10022.html
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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2010, 06:08:50 PM »

"The church is me," as Gorazd explained.  (Is "English only" a forum rule?)

For non- discussions there is Foreign Language Forum.

"L'état c'est moi" is such a famous saying that one should be able to quote it in any language.
But this forum does require that, outside of the Foreign Language boards, conversations must be carried out in English.  The use of a language other than English is permitted here, but it must be accompanied by an English translation.

As to this "famous saying", I've never heard it before.

It is usually translated in English "The State? I am the State." It rhyms, however, in French. I'd post examples, but they are all political.
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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2010, 06:53:23 PM »

It should be obvious that I am neither a believer in the "Branch Theory" or the "Left and Right Lung Theory".  Perhaps it is my Lutheran background that causes me to hate the RC organization (not its people) with such a vengeance.  Or perhaps it is seeing with my own eyes how that organization has soiled the name "Christian" in the eyes of the people of other faiths.  If this causes me to be moderated, so be it.  As Luther once said when on trial by the Antichrist, "Here I stand, I can do none other.  God help me!".  It has always saddened me that Luther did not turn to the "Church of the East" that he wrote of so respectfully in his writings.  Thankfully the Church of the East was there for me, and it is that Church's "theology" that I confess. 

Warms my heart to know that there are no Orthodox sinners, because that is the only conclusion I can draw from your comparison.

Then you fail the reading comprehension exam.

Quote
How many murders must I commit before I am a murderer?  How many times must I steal before I am a thief?  How many times must I lie before I am a liar?
Without repentence, 1.

Quote
Because there are more cases of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church does not make her moral theology better or worse.

Better? Huh Shocked Roll Eyes How would sexual abuse make it better?

As for worse, depends on what role her moral theology played in the cases. IMHO in the actual abuse, not much more than the ordinary. In the cover up, a great deal.

Quote
It simply means there are MORE Catholics and more Catholic institutions, and so statistically there are more cases of  abuse to be found than there are in Orthodoxy because there are more people and more institutional opportunities.

You have some stats to back that up?

Quote
Also my Baptism as a Catholic resulted in an ontological change in me as a person.

You think your baptism by the Vatican does so. We're not so sure.

Quote
When you HATE my Church,

Does refusal to embrace the errors of Ultramontanism and Branch Theory=hate?

Quote
you HATE my faith,

Does noting the differences=hate?

Quote
and you HATE my sacraments,

Does non-recognition=hate.

Quote
and you HATE me.

Suit yourself.

Quote
Are all Orthodox as free with their moral relativism as you are?

Haven't a clue what you are saying here. Do you?
Also my Baptism as a Catholic resulted in an ontological change in me as a person.  When you HATE my Church, you HATE my faith, and you HATE my sacraments, and you HATE me.

L'eglise c'est moi!

LOL...baloney!!

That is not at all what I said.

Oh?

Quote
I said that there is precious little difference between hating the sin and hating the sinner...

Our Lord's Brother taught us otherwise: Jude 23 "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

Quote
and so there is even less difference when it comes to membership in the Body.

especially if it is gangrenous.

Quote
If you hate the body it is impossible to exempt the members.

Just the gangrenous ones. And even then...

Quote
To claim to do so is simply mad...as in detached from reality.

Like tried to suck good air out of a healthy lung into a diseased one.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2010, 08:34:08 PM »

Also my Baptism as a Catholic resulted in an ontological change in me as a person.  When you HATE my Church, you HATE my faith, and you HATE my sacraments, and you HATE me.

L'eglise c'est moi!

LOL...baloney!!

That is not at all what I said.

I said that there is precious little difference between hating the sin and hating the sinner...and so there is even less difference when it comes to membership in the Body.  If you hate the body it is impossible to exempt the members.  To claim to do so is simply mad...as in detached from reality.

M.

For the sake of argument, I offer this falsehood: "I hate the Roman Catholic Church."

Mary is a member of the Roman Catholic Church
I hate the Roman Catholic Church
Therefore, I hate Mary.

Second figure syllogism, invalid mood: False conclusion.

That might squeak by in secular discussions but we are talking about the Body of Christ...even if in your eyes it is only a putative Body of Christ.

In spiritual and religious terms one cannot hate the Body and not the member.

I hope you all realize that I am not at all upset by Punch and have some idea of what many Lutherans feel about the Catholic Church.  My mother's father was a Lutheran.  He did not hate the Catholic Church.  Of course from what I can gather he was a nominal Christian in any event.  But others did and it was very clear to me even as a little girl.

I grew up in a town where the non-Catholic kids threw rocks at the Catholic kids walking home from school and shouted mean and vile things...So being hated for my religion is nothing new.

M.
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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2010, 08:43:00 PM »

Does refusal to embrace the errors of Ultramontanism and Branch Theory=hate?


Don't forget rule #1 of the Catholic apologists handbook:

Any and all opposition to Catholic theology, doctrine, ecclesiology, practice or history voiced by a non-Catholic is by default anti-Catholic bigotry.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2010, 10:07:47 PM »

Also my Baptism as a Catholic resulted in an ontological change in me as a person.  When you HATE my Church, you HATE my faith, and you HATE my sacraments, and you HATE me.

L'eglise c'est moi!

LOL...baloney!!

That is not at all what I said.

I said that there is precious little difference between hating the sin and hating the sinner...and so there is even less difference when it comes to membership in the Body.  If you hate the body it is impossible to exempt the members.  To claim to do so is simply mad...as in detached from reality.

M.

For the sake of argument, I offer this falsehood: "I hate the Roman Catholic Church."

Mary is a member of the Roman Catholic Church
I hate the Roman Catholic Church
Therefore, I hate Mary.

Second figure syllogism, invalid mood: False conclusion.

That might squeak by in secular discussions but we are talking about the Body of Christ...even if in your eyes it is only a putative Body of Christ.

Putative Body of Christ? Either it is the Living Body of Christ, or it isn't.

Quote
In spiritual and religious terms one cannot hate the Body and not the member.

You can know better to stay away gangrenous members.

Quote
I hope you all realize that I am not at all upset by Punch and have some idea of what many Lutherans feel about the Catholic Church.  My mother's father was a Lutheran.  He did not hate the Catholic Church.  Of course from what I can gather he was a nominal Christian in any event.  But others did and it was very clear to me even as a little girl.

I grew up in a town where the non-Catholic kids threw rocks at the Catholic kids walking home from school and shouted mean and vile things...So being hated for my religion is nothing new.

Knowing the nature of these things, I get the funny feeling that the "Catholic kids" shouted many a thing and threw many a rock. Your persecusion complex is showing.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 10:09:02 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2010, 10:27:13 PM »

The idea that hating the Roman Catholic Church means hating any member of it is ludicrous.  I hate Obama's policy positions for the most part.  I hate the positions of the Democratic Party in large part (and those of the Republican Party in large part).  However, Obama seems like he would be a great guy to hang out with, and I have Democratic and Republican friends.

Likewise, there are many people in the world who hate Freemasonry yet do not hate all the members of Freemasonry (in fact, some of the Anti-Freemasonry people seem to feel pity for most of the Freemasons).

Just because someone hates an organization does NOT mean they hate members of the organization. 

"I said that there is precious little difference between hating the sin and hating the sinner"

Aren't Christians called to hate the sin and love the sinner?  Are you saying that it is impossible to do something your faith requires you do?  I mean, I hate it when I'm lied to or mislead - that doesn't mean I hate everyone who lies to me or misleads me.
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« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2010, 10:37:43 PM »

Also my Baptism as a Catholic resulted in an ontological change in me as a person.  When you HATE my Church, you HATE my faith, and you HATE my sacraments, and you HATE me.

L'eglise c'est moi!

LOL...baloney!!

That is not at all what I said.

I said that there is precious little difference between hating the sin and hating the sinner...and so there is even less difference when it comes to membership in the Body.  If you hate the body it is impossible to exempt the members.  To claim to do so is simply mad...as in detached from reality.

M.

For the sake of argument, I offer this falsehood: "I hate the Roman Catholic Church."

Mary is a member of the Roman Catholic Church
I hate the Roman Catholic Church
Therefore, I hate Mary.

Second figure syllogism, invalid mood: False conclusion.

That might squeak by in secular discussions but we are talking about the Body of Christ...even if in your eyes it is only a putative Body of Christ.

Somewhere, Albertus Magnus just facepalmed.
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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2010, 11:32:16 PM »

Does refusal to embrace the errors of Ultramontanism and Branch Theory=hate?


Don't forget rule #1 of the Catholic apologists handbook:

Any and all opposition to Catholic theology, doctrine, ecclesiology, practice or history voiced by a non-Catholic is by default anti-Catholic bigotry.

Read the comment by Punch where he says quite clearly that he HATES the Catholic Church. 

Perhaps that is so commonplace to you that you no longer see anything wrong with that thereby being able to make fun of those of us who object.

I suppose having children call one a dirty or ugly pape while lobbing rocks is ok with you as well?

Well...that was a long time ago.  In any event, you seem to either seek to defend that behavior or deny it happens,  or is happening here.

Mary
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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2010, 11:32:17 PM »

The idea that hating the Roman Catholic Church means hating any member of it is ludicrous.  I hate Obama's policy positions for the most part.  I hate the positions of the Democratic Party in large part (and those of the Republican Party in large part).  However, Obama seems like he would be a great guy to hang out with, and I have Democratic and Republican friends.

Likewise, there are many people in the world who hate Freemasonry yet do not hate all the members of Freemasonry (in fact, some of the Anti-Freemasonry people seem to feel pity for most of the Freemasons).

Just because someone hates an organization does NOT mean they hate members of the organization. 

"I said that there is precious little difference between hating the sin and hating the sinner"

Aren't Christians called to hate the sin and love the sinner?  Are you saying that it is impossible to do something your faith requires you do?  I mean, I hate it when I'm lied to or mislead - that doesn't mean I hate everyone who lies to me or misleads me.

Then you missed what I said about  Baptism and our relationship with and in the Body of Christ, that makes it nearly impossible to separate the members from the Body.  

Why would anyone say that they HATE the Catholic Church in any event?

Why would anyone refer to it as gangrenous?

That sounds like a lot of baseless fear to me...Or bullying, which is inherently cowardly.

At any rate, that's enough from me on this topic.

M.
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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2010, 10:03:02 AM »

Does refusal to embrace the errors of Ultramontanism and Branch Theory=hate?


Don't forget rule #1 of the Catholic apologists handbook:

Any and all opposition to Catholic theology, doctrine, ecclesiology, practice or history voiced by a non-Catholic is by default anti-Catholic bigotry.

That's rich. Did you read Punch's post? It was vitriolic.

I've seen worse than that on this forum in the past. It's a terrible witness, if you're trying to entice Catholics to your church.
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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2010, 10:06:09 AM »

It is also, alas, the main reason why I do not venture into this snakepit very often anymore. It's wearying.
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« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2010, 11:17:26 AM »

It is also, alas, the main reason why I do not venture into this snakepit very often anymore. It's wearying.

Okay.. Let's declare a draw. Punch said he Hated the Roman Catholic Church and now lubeltri called this Orthodox forum a "snake-pit"

Whistle...... Offsetting  fouls.

Now then ,I would point out that when many of us were regular posters on a Catholic run forum we were kicked off en-mass, not because we were snakes but rather because we made too many valid arguments.

Roman Catholics are use to apologetics aimed at Protestants. We Orthodox can learn a bit from them as we encounter Protestants too. However, they are very un prepared for a fight on their Right Flank , the Orthodox. This is because we source the same general aruments they use against the Protestants ie appeals to the Church Fathers,  and a non self serving reading of Church History. This throws them off because those things are their allies when dealing with Protestants but it comes back to bite them when dealing with us. 
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« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2010, 01:42:40 PM »

Well, carry on with your oh-so-irrefutable arguments as Grand Apologist for Online OrthodoxyTM. I'm not stopping you. Perhaps you can ask the Pope to apologize for that Catholic forum's banning of you for shining too much light on those poor ignorant souls there.

And just to be clear, I wasn't calling OC.net in general a snakepit, just (sometimes) the RC/EO subforum. Orthodox can be quite pleasant and charitable in other areas of OC.net.

Good day.
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« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2010, 01:47:10 PM »

The idea that hating the Roman Catholic Church means hating any member of it is ludicrous.  I hate Obama's policy positions for the most part.  I hate the positions of the Democratic Party in large part (and those of the Republican Party in large part).  However, Obama seems like he would be a great guy to hang out with, and I have Democratic and Republican friends.

Likewise, there are many people in the world who hate Freemasonry yet do not hate all the members of Freemasonry (in fact, some of the Anti-Freemasonry people seem to feel pity for most of the Freemasons).

Just because someone hates an organization does NOT mean they hate members of the organization. 

"I said that there is precious little difference between hating the sin and hating the sinner"

Aren't Christians called to hate the sin and love the sinner?  Are you saying that it is impossible to do something your faith requires you do?  I mean, I hate it when I'm lied to or mislead - that doesn't mean I hate everyone who lies to me or misleads me.

Well said!  Unfortunately, this age has bred too many people with minds too small to understand complex issues, or for that matter, anything more complicated than a 20 second sound bite.  There are many organizations that are bad and have deceived many innocent people to become part of them.  Your words on Freemasonry were right on.  Two of my closest friends at work are Freemasons who think they are just members of a social organization.  They are fooled by the good work that the Masons do and have no understanding of the anti-Christian agenda of the organization as a whole.  These people are not worthy of hate, but rather sympathy.

This is exactly how I feel about the RCC.  I have even less use for it as an organization than I do the Masons (at least the Masons saved my youngest Child’s life).  Yet, I have no animosity toward the members, other than the leadership that continues to deceive them and protect those that abuse them.  As to the Roman apologists, I see them no different than their leaders.
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« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2010, 01:58:52 PM »

 
Does refusal to embrace the errors of Ultramontanism and Branch Theory=hate?


Don't forget rule #1 of the Catholic apologists handbook:

Any and all opposition to Catholic theology, doctrine, ecclesiology, practice or history voiced by a non-Catholic is by default anti-Catholic bigotry.

That's rich. Did you read Punch's post? It was vitriolic.

I've seen worse than that on this forum in the past. It's a terrible witness, if you're trying to entice Catholics to your church.

We are not trying to entice Catholics into the Church since the Church is Catholic, as the Creed states.  As to the Roman Church that calls itself “Catholic”, we pray for your repentance and long for the day that you enter into the Body of Christ.  I choose not to coddle you and speak as I feel because there are enough people who call themselves “Orthodox” who will tell you that it is all alright, we are both parts of the Body of Christ.  As such, there is no need for you to repent.  Such people are vipers and wish nothing other than the destruction of your soul.  These are the ones that “hate” you, and you truly and individually.  Has it ever occurred to you that those of us who hate those that deceive you do so out of love for you?  If we didn’t care about those that were deceived, there would be no need to even acknowledge your church, much less hate it.
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« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2010, 02:09:34 PM »

Does refusal to embrace the errors of Ultramontanism and Branch Theory=hate?


Don't forget rule #1 of the Catholic apologists handbook:

Any and all opposition to Catholic theology, doctrine, ecclesiology, practice or history voiced by a non-Catholic is by default anti-Catholic bigotry.
I am nominating this for the most ridiculous post of the month.
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« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2010, 02:11:36 PM »



Now then ,I would point out that when many of us were regular posters on a Catholic run forum we were kicked off en-mass, not because we were snakes but rather because we made too many valid arguments.

No you were kicked off for being poor guests and not following forum rules. You all wanted to behave as if CAF was an Eastern Orthodox one.
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« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2010, 02:12:26 PM »

Does refusal to embrace the errors of Ultramontanism and Branch Theory=hate?


Don't forget rule #1 of the Catholic apologists handbook:

Any and all opposition to Catholic theology, doctrine, ecclesiology, practice or history voiced by a non-Catholic is by default anti-Catholic bigotry.

That's rich. Did you read Punch's post? It was vitriolic.

I've seen worse than that on this forum in the past. It's a terrible witness, if you're trying to entice Catholics to your church.

We are not trying to entice Catholics into the Church since the Church is Catholic, as the Creed states.  As to the Roman Church that calls itself “Catholic”, we pray for your repentance and long for the day that you enter into the Body of Christ.  I choose not to coddle you and speak as I feel because there are enough people who call themselves “Orthodox” who will tell you that it is all alright, we are both parts of the Body of Christ.  As such, there is no need for you to repent.  Such people are vipers and wish nothing other than the destruction of your soul.  These are the ones that “hate” you, and you truly and individually.  Has it ever occurred to you that those of us who hate those that deceive you do so out of love for you?  If we didn’t care about those that were deceived, there would be no need to even acknowledge your church, much less hate it.

If you cared about Catholic Christians you would not drive them away by stating that you hate their Church.
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« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2010, 02:26:39 PM »

I am nominating this for the most ridiculous post of the month.

Only the month? I'm a little offended!
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« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2010, 02:30:10 PM »

No you were kicked off for being poor guests and not following forum rules. You all wanted to behave as if CAF was an Eastern Orthodox one.

Baloney. They changed from the Eastern Christianity sub-forum to the Eastern Catholicism sub-forum and within 24 hours dozens of long time EO posters were banned. No infractions, no warnings, just banned. If they had been violating the rules for so long why hadn't they been banned already and why all of a sudden when they made the forum change?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 02:31:47 PM by Paisius » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2010, 02:33:09 PM »

No you were kicked off for being poor guests and not following forum rules. You all wanted to behave as if CAF was an Eastern Orthodox one.

Baloney. They changed from the Eastern Christianity sub-forum to the Eastern Catholicism sub-forum and within 24 hours dozens of long time EO posters were banned. If they had been violating the rules for so long why hadn't they been banned already and why all of a sudden when they made the forum change?
It changed because your behavior over there was so bad. And not only was the behavior of many EOs over there so bad and unbecoming of guests, but the old moderator of the Eastern Christianity protected the the bad behavior of some EO guests and would not allow Catholics to defend their faith.
In the end, radical change was needed to get rid of a problem that went all the way up to the moderator.
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« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2010, 02:42:45 PM »

And just to be clear, I wasn't calling OC.net in general a snakepit, just (sometimes) the RC/EO subforum. Orthodox can be quite pleasant and charitable in other areas of OC.net.

I understood it as a statement about OC.net generally, so I appreciate the clarification.
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« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2010, 02:50:44 PM »



Knock off the unrelated and gossipy talk about CAF and why/how people were booted.  I could not care less what happens on other forums.  This is OC.net, not CAF.  Keep your complaining to yourselves.

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« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2010, 02:51:04 PM »

Well, carry on with your oh-so-irrefutable arguments as Grand Apologist for Online OrthodoxyTM. I'm not stopping you. Perhaps you can ask the Pope to apologize for that Catholic forum's banning of you for shining too much light on those poor ignorant souls there.

And just to be clear, I wasn't calling OC.net in general a snakepit, just (sometimes) the RC/EO subforum. Orthodox can be quite pleasant and charitable in other areas of OC.net.

Good day.
oh..okay... My personal experience is that when the points at issue are debated in a scholarly manner, the Orthodox position seems to be more solid. I don't think we are shining a light on poor souls, I just think we have a good case to make.

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« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2010, 02:55:13 PM »

Well, carry on with your oh-so-irrefutable arguments as Grand Apologist for Online OrthodoxyTM. I'm not stopping you. Perhaps you can ask the Pope to apologize for that Catholic forum's banning of you for shining too much light on those poor ignorant souls there.

And just to be clear, I wasn't calling OC.net in general a snakepit, just (sometimes) the RC/EO subforum. Orthodox can be quite pleasant and charitable in other areas of OC.net.

Good day.
oh..okay... My personal experience is that when the points at issue are debated in a scholarly manner, the Orthdox position seems to be more solid. I don't think we are shining a light on poor souls, I just think we have a good case to make.

I think the people who run that Roman Catholic forum were embarrassed. Catholics assume they can win every debate as they so often do with Protestants. It's a rude wake up call when that doesn't happen so easily with the Orthodox.  Catholics seem to be very concerned with their Authority.  They freak out when it is questioned and do things like ban dozens of Orthodox posters en mass ( and deleted years and years of files). go figure.
And that is not what is experienced by Catholics here at OC.net generally.
First, I am not very impressed by EO apologetics in general.
Second, what is often experienced here is not necessarily apologetics, but anti-Catholic vitriol. There is a difference. I respect a good argument, but not attack for the sake of attack. Not dishonest debating like attacking  strawmen, and misrepresenting the Catholic faith.
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« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2010, 03:05:29 PM »

Well, carry on with your oh-so-irrefutable arguments as Grand Apologist for Online OrthodoxyTM. I'm not stopping you. Perhaps you can ask the Pope to apologize for that Catholic forum's banning of you for shining too much light on those poor ignorant souls there.

And just to be clear, I wasn't calling OC.net in general a snakepit, just (sometimes) the RC/EO subforum. Orthodox can be quite pleasant and charitable in other areas of OC.net.

Good day.
oh..okay... My personal experience is that when the points at issue are debated in a scholarly manner, the Orthdox position seems to be more solid. I don't think we are shining a light on poor souls, I just think we have a good case to make.

I think the people who run that Roman Catholic forum were embarrassed. Catholics assume they can win every debate as they so often do with Protestants. It's a rude wake up call when that doesn't happen so easily with the Orthodox.  Catholics seem to be very concerned with their Authority.  They freak out when it is questioned and do things like ban dozens of Orthodox posters en mass ( and deleted years and years of files). go figure.
And that is not what is experienced by Catholics here at OC.net generally.
First, I am not very impressed by EO apologetics in general.
Second, what is often experienced here is not necessarily apologetics, but anti-Catholic vitriol. There is a difference. I respect a good argument, but not attack for the sake of attack. Not dishonest debating like attacking  strawmen, and misrepresenting the Catholic faith.

But on a high scholarly level, the Orthodox have always seemed to present the better case. Catholics like to say all the time that they are being miss represented. It's like a pre set talking point. However, document for document, by the highest standards of rigorous scrutiny, I have never seen the Catholic position defended very well. Maybe it's just my impression.
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« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2010, 03:08:52 PM »

Well, carry on with your oh-so-irrefutable arguments as Grand Apologist for Online OrthodoxyTM. I'm not stopping you. Perhaps you can ask the Pope to apologize for that Catholic forum's banning of you for shining too much light on those poor ignorant souls there.

And just to be clear, I wasn't calling OC.net in general a snakepit, just (sometimes) the RC/EO subforum. Orthodox can be quite pleasant and charitable in other areas of OC.net.

Good day.
oh..okay... My personal experience is that when the points at issue are debated in a scholarly manner, the Orthdox position seems to be more solid. I don't think we are shining a light on poor souls, I just think we have a good case to make.

I think the people who run that Roman Catholic forum were embarrassed. Catholics assume they can win every debate as they so often do with Protestants. It's a rude wake up call when that doesn't happen so easily with the Orthodox.  Catholics seem to be very concerned with their Authority.  They freak out when it is questioned and do things like ban dozens of Orthodox posters en mass ( and deleted years and years of files). go figure.
And that is not what is experienced by Catholics here at OC.net generally.
First, I am not very impressed by EO apologetics in general.
Second, what is often experienced here is not necessarily apologetics, but anti-Catholic vitriol. There is a difference. I respect a good argument, but not attack for the sake of attack. Not dishonest debating like attacking  strawmen, and misrepresenting the Catholic faith.

But on a high scholarly level, the Orthodox have always seemed to present the better case. Catholics like to say all the time that they are being miss represented. It's like a pre set talking point. However, document for document, by the highest standards of rigorous scrutiny, I have never seen the Catholic position defended very well. Maybe it's just my impression.
That's interesting, as I have had a very different experience. First, it is my experience that EO's misrepresent Catholic teaching all the time. I see it on the this forum daily. Second, I am not impressed with EO apologetics, scholarly or otherwise. So from my perspective,  you can take your view, and reverse every statement, and you would have my view. Perhaps it's just my impression as well.
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« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2010, 03:15:56 PM »

One thing that may be different for me. I am a fairly recent convert ( within 10 years) and I was not a Christian of any stripe before that. It would have been far easier for me to have become a Catholic or Protestant than  Orthodox simply because there are several dozen such Churches practically walking distance from my home. I have to jump through all kinds of hoops to belong to an Orthodox Parish and lets face it, Orthodox practice is very demanding in terms of fasting and loooooong foot throbbing services etc.

As an inquirer what I noticed was that on a casual level of debate the Catholics had a lot of ammo in terms of quotes from the Fathers etc. If you stop there, you may be correct and I am sure amateur debaters use a lot of put downs and miss representations. But I had no horse in that race. I saw time and again that once folks debated past the boiler plate quotes and added context and a fuller grasp of what was being debated, I never saw the Catholics win. Never. Not once.

 I have seen rooting like for a baseball team and no matter the result, partisans would declare victory and walk away. But from where I sit the prime issues that divide us were overwhelmingly out sourced and out reasoned and out argued by the Orthodox. Had it been otherwise, i would have walked across the street and become Catholic.


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« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2010, 03:27:07 PM »

Well, carry on with your oh-so-irrefutable arguments as Grand Apologist for Online OrthodoxyTM. I'm not stopping you. Perhaps you can ask the Pope to apologize for that Catholic forum's banning of you for shining too much light on those poor ignorant souls there.

And just to be clear, I wasn't calling OC.net in general a snakepit, just (sometimes) the RC/EO subforum. Orthodox can be quite pleasant and charitable in other areas of OC.net.

Good day.
oh..okay... My personal experience is that when the points at issue are debated in a scholarly manner, the Orthodox position seems to be more solid. I don't think we are shining a light on poor souls, I just think we have a good case to make.



Thanks for this. I was offended by what I thought was the smugness of the previous post, and I like this much better.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.As an historian myself, I certainly know that controversies from deep in the past are very complex and a number of starkly different interpretations can be argued about them. My own conclusion happens to be different from yours, but I respect your view.And certainly some very good people that I respect (Met. Kallistos Ware, Jaroslav Pelikan, my own thesis adviser Florin Curta) have held it.

God bless.
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« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2010, 04:07:19 PM »

Does refusal to embrace the errors of Ultramontanism and Branch Theory=hate?


Don't forget rule #1 of the Catholic apologists handbook:

Any and all opposition to Catholic theology, doctrine, ecclesiology, practice or history voiced by a non-Catholic is by default anti-Catholic bigotry.

That's rich. Did you read Punch's post? It was vitriolic.

I've seen worse than that on this forum in the past. It's a terrible witness, if you're trying to entice Catholics to your church.

We are not trying to entice Catholics into the Church since the Church is Catholic, as the Creed states.  As to the Roman Church that calls itself “Catholic”, we pray for your repentance and long for the day that you enter into the Body of Christ.  I choose not to coddle you and speak as I feel because there are enough people who call themselves “Orthodox” who will tell you that it is all alright, we are both parts of the Body of Christ.  As such, there is no need for you to repent.  Such people are vipers and wish nothing other than the destruction of your soul.  These are the ones that “hate” you, and you truly and individually.  Has it ever occurred to you that those of us who hate those that deceive you do so out of love for you?  If we didn’t care about those that were deceived, there would be no need to even acknowledge your church, much less hate it.

If you cared about Catholic Christians you would not drive them away by stating that you hate their Church.

And loving its heresies is going to bring them to Orthodoxy how?
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« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2010, 04:25:44 PM »

Well, carry on with your oh-so-irrefutable arguments as Grand Apologist for Online OrthodoxyTM. I'm not stopping you. Perhaps you can ask the Pope to apologize for that Catholic forum's banning of you for shining too much light on those poor ignorant souls there.

And just to be clear, I wasn't calling OC.net in general a snakepit, just (sometimes) the RC/EO subforum. Orthodox can be quite pleasant and charitable in other areas of OC.net.

Good day.
oh..okay... My personal experience is that when the points at issue are debated in a scholarly manner, the Orthodox position seems to be more solid. I don't think we are shining a light on poor souls, I just think we have a good case to make.



Thanks for this. I was offended by what I thought was the smugness of the previous post, and I like this much better.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.As an historian myself, I certainly know that controversies from deep in the past are very complex and a number of starkly different interpretations can be argued about them. My own conclusion happens to be different from yours, but I respect your view.And certainly some very good people that I respect (Met. Kallistos Ware, Jaroslav Pelikan, my own thesis adviser Florin Curta) have held it.

God bless.

Are you a professional historian and if so, what is your specialty?
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« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2010, 04:42:08 PM »

And loving its heresies is going to bring them to Orthodoxy how?

There are no formal teachings of the Catholic Church that are heretical.

And to teach against the Catholic Church, and try to lead people away from the truth of Catholic teaching, is formally heretical behavior.

Better we should spend our limited resources on looking at the ways in which Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church are different expressions of the same core truths. 

It can be done.  Some of your Orthodox hierarchs have done it.

Mary

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