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Author Topic: Iconoclasm and Evangelicals  (Read 749 times) Average Rating: 0
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DennyB
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« on: August 28, 2010, 07:19:41 PM »

I know a discussion of icons come up quite often, when discussing them with Evangelicals, so I thought I would approach it from a different perspective, and to point out how the Evil One has used iconoclasm as an in-road and a divisive tool against the Church,and I will hopefully show why icons are very much needed in the Church.   I think I can safely say,and please correct me if I'm wrong, that one of the main purposes of icons was to build and preserve a true and faithful image of Christ, and of the Christian life, to the Christian who is,in His or Her daily life, bombarded with false images that may distort life,and the true Apostolic faith.  Iconoclast have been around for centuries,and though they may have had noble goals,in their persuit of the distruction of religious images, What they didn't realize is that by destroying those images they where simply replacing them with others,maybe not "visible" images but "mental images".
Images translated in the mind, not by pictures or art,but WORDS,this becomes increasingly prevelent during the beginnings of the age of Scholasticism, one's philosophy and mindset tends to create images in the mind of a person simply by what they read,or ponder on. This is especially true of a woman,while men are influenced more by pictoral images,women are more influenced by what is spoken or read,take Romance novels for instance,a woman does not need pictures to build an image of what is taking place,or the subject of what is being said,they simply need words to convey a thought or action,not that men are incapable of such a task, It is just easier for a woman. My point is that the intended purpose of icons was to preserve in picture form, the life and faith of the Church,meaning that while words written or spoken can be sometimes mis-interpreted and a false idea take root,icons have a very clear an concise message to convey,that would otherwise be distorted or mis-construed.   So to those iconoclast out there, just remember a picture is worth a thousand words!

« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 07:27:04 PM by DennyB » Logged
Peleg
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2010, 02:55:55 AM »

I know a discussion of icons come up quite often, when discussing them with Evangelicals, so I thought I would approach it from a different perspective, and to point out how the Evil One has used iconoclasm as an in-road and a divisive tool against the Church,and I will hopefully show why icons are very much needed in the Church.   I think I can safely say,and please correct me if I'm wrong, that one of the main purposes of icons was to build and preserve a true and faithful image of Christ, and of the Christian life, to the Christian who is,in His or Her daily life, bombarded with false images that may distort life,and the true Apostolic faith.  Iconoclast have been around for centuries,and though they may have had noble goals,in their persuit of the distruction of religious images, What they didn't realize is that by destroying those images they where simply replacing them with others,maybe not "visible" images but "mental images".
Images translated in the mind, not by pictures or art,but WORDS,this becomes increasingly prevelent during the beginnings of the age of Scholasticism, one's philosophy and mindset tends to create images in the mind of a person simply by what they read,or ponder on. This is especially true of a woman,while men are influenced more by pictoral images,women are more influenced by what is spoken or read,take Romance novels for instance,a woman does not need pictures to build an image of what is taking place,or the subject of what is being said,they simply need words to convey a thought or action,not that men are incapable of such a task, It is just easier for a woman. My point is that the intended purpose of icons was to preserve in picture form, the life and faith of the Church,meaning that while words written or spoken can be sometimes mis-interpreted and a false idea take root,icons have a very clear an concise message to convey,that would otherwise be distorted or mis-construed.   So to those iconoclast out there, just remember a picture is worth a thousand words!



I think you raise some very good points.  But I think that most non-Orthodox also react strongly against the veneration of icons.  Even if they understand that worship is not taking place the idea of venerating something seems like a waist of time...pointless.  Toss in our ever increasingly individualistic, post-modern culture and we've got our work cut out for us.
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DennyB
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2010, 06:24:30 AM »

I know a discussion of icons come up quite often, when discussing them with Evangelicals, so I thought I would approach it from a different perspective, and to point out how the Evil One has used iconoclasm as an in-road and a divisive tool against the Church,and I will hopefully show why icons are very much needed in the Church.   I think I can safely say,and please correct me if I'm wrong, that one of the main purposes of icons was to build and preserve a true and faithful image of Christ, and of the Christian life, to the Christian who is,in His or Her daily life, bombarded with false images that may distort life,and the true Apostolic faith.  Iconoclast have been around for centuries,and though they may have had noble goals,in their persuit of the distruction of religious images, What they didn't realize is that by destroying those images they where simply replacing them with others,maybe not "visible" images but "mental images".
Images translated in the mind, not by pictures or art,but WORDS,this becomes increasingly prevelent during the beginnings of the age of Scholasticism, one's philosophy and mindset tends to create images in the mind of a person simply by what they read,or ponder on. This is especially true of a woman,while men are influenced more by pictoral images,women are more influenced by what is spoken or read,take Romance novels for instance,a woman does not need pictures to build an image of what is taking place,or the subject of what is being said,they simply need words to convey a thought or action,not that men are incapable of such a task, It is just easier for a woman. My point is that the intended purpose of icons was to preserve in picture form, the life and faith of the Church,meaning that while words written or spoken can be sometimes mis-interpreted and a false idea take root,icons have a very clear an concise message to convey,that would otherwise be distorted or mis-construed.   So to those iconoclast out there, just remember a picture is worth a thousand words!



I think you raise some very good points.  But I think that most non-Orthodox also react strongly against the veneration of icons.  Even if they understand that worship is not taking place the idea of venerating something seems like a waist of time...pointless.  Toss in our ever increasingly individualistic, post-modern culture and we've got our work cut out for us.

Isn't that the truth. When everything became a "four walls and a sermon" approach, by getting rid of every reminder of who and what we are,Satan was given a clean slate to work with,and the imagination of man could now go to work!!!
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chrevbel
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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2010, 03:38:49 PM »

Isn't that the truth. When everything became a "four walls and a sermon" approach, by getting rid of every reminder of who and what we are,Satan was given a clean slate to work with,and the imagination of man could now go to work!!!
//**Near-pointless tangent alert **//
A minister was painting the walls of the church.  Halfway through, he realized he'd used much more than half his paint, but added enough thinner to complete the job.  The next day -- predictably -- he noticed the distinct line halfway back in the sanctuary, with the front half and back half being noticeably different shades of white.  "Oh, my Lord!  I've really messed this up.  What should I do?" he asked.  A booming voice answered "Repaint; and thin no more."
//** Tangent alert complete.  **//
Sorry, but this post somehow reminded me of this old saw.  Couldn't help myself.  Back to your regularly scheduled thread...
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jnorm888
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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2010, 10:33:41 PM »

Check these out:

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Christian-Attitudes-Toward-Images/dp/097456186X (Early Christian Attitudes Toward Images) by Steven Bigham

http://www.amazon.com/Epiphanius-Iconoclasm-Deconstruction-Patristic-Theological/dp/1933275286/ref=pd_sim_b_1 (Epiphanius of Salamis, Doctor of Iconoclasm? Deconstruction of a Myth) by Steven Bigham

Also check out:
http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/2010/07/local-western-synod-of-elvira-did-it.html (The local western Synod of Elvira: Did it really condemn Icons?)

Or straight to Perry's sight:
http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/elvira-mistress-of-the-cheesy/ (Elvira, Mistress of the Cheesy)

http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2010/06/12/picking-cherries/ (Picking Cherries)

http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/2010/03/31/irenaeus-and-icons/ (Irenaeus and Icons)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN4bHegr6QY&feature=player_embedded (Holy Icons: The ancient Christian tradition of images)

http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/search/label/A%20Defense%20of%20the%20Holy%20Icons (A defense of Holy Icons)

http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/search/label/Icons (Icons)

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/search/label/Icons (Icons)


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7940567373194372868&hl=en# (Icons and the Incarnation: 7th Christian Council)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4984242884661026877&hl=en# ("Icons ... not Idols" a talk by Paul Finley)

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/podup/ourlife/icons_part_one (Our Life in Christ: Icons Part 1)

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/podup/ourlife/icons_part_two (Our Life in Christ: Icons Part 2)

 



I hope this helps!
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