OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 24, 2014, 08:08:57 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: "Lead us not into temptation"  (Read 4177 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« on: August 26, 2010, 12:12:10 PM »

A question for my Greek friends. In English, we say in the Lord's Prayer, "lead us not into temptation." However, in Greek it is, μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν. Now, this "mi isenenkis," does it really mean "don't LEAD?" I am asking because people sometimes say, it's Satan who "leads" people into temptation, not God. Any ethymological clues? Thanks!
Logged

Love never fails.
Cymbyz
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 496



« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2010, 12:52:34 PM »

I think this is part of a parallelism:  "Lead us not into temptation" is meant by reinforce by contrast the next clause, "Deliver us from the Evil One."
Logged

The end of the world
is as near as the day of your death;
watch and pray.
 
 Yahoo! & WLM ID: Owen
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2010, 01:09:50 PM »

I think this is part of a parallelism:  "Lead us not into temptation" is meant by reinforce by contrast the next clause, "Deliver us from the Evil One."

So, "mi isenenkis" literally means "do not LEAD?" No other possible translations?
Logged

Love never fails.
Cymbyz
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 496



« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2010, 02:38:14 PM »

Correct.  You're asking God not to do what you inow the Devil does, but to deliver you from the Devil.
Logged

The end of the world
is as near as the day of your death;
watch and pray.
 
 Yahoo! & WLM ID: Owen
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2010, 03:24:32 PM »

Correct.  You're asking God not to do what you inow the Devil does, but to deliver you from the Devil.

But isn't it obvious that God does not do it anyway? Why ask Him to not do what He obviously will not do, whether we ask Him about this or not?
Logged

Love never fails.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,631



WWW
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2010, 03:30:46 PM »


I also, always wondered about that line.

I interpreted it as asking God to save us from temptations.  For example, if I were to go to point A, then I would be exposed to something that is a temptation to me, so God please lead me not to point A, but, to point B where there will be no temptation waiting for me. 

In other words, keep me from being exposed to temptations - be it people who are bad influences, places, sounds, smells, jokes, sites, etc.

It's not that God would lead me there in the first place, but, may He help me to steer clear from such bad influences.





Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Chacci
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 69


« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2010, 03:37:48 PM »

God is almighty - he keeps the devil from tempting and allows the devil to tempt.  God doesn't do the tempting, but allows the Devil to do the tempting.. ala The Book of Job.  So, when we ask to "lead us not in temptation" we are asking him not to allow the devil to tempt us but to rather "deliver us from the evil one".
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,968



« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2010, 04:38:12 PM »

1 Corinthians 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

So God is in some way involved in the temptation process, although I would say not the source of it.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 04:38:28 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Rufus
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: leet


Nafpliotis with sunglasses and a cigar.


« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2010, 04:45:25 PM »

The verb in "mi eisenegkis" is subjunctive, *not* imperative, and it's what's called a "permissive imperative," i.e. the most literal translation would be "do not permit us to be led into temptation."
Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2010, 05:56:31 PM »

The verb in "mi eisenegkis" is subjunctive, *not* imperative, and it's what's called a "permissive imperative," i.e. the most literal translation would be "do not permit us to be led into temptation."

Thank you so much for this, Rufus. I think this explains it.
Logged

Love never fails.
Christianus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: ¿esse an non esse Orthodoxus?
Posts: 312


« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2010, 11:38:20 AM »

A question for my Greek friends. In English, we say in the Lord's Prayer, "lead us not into temptation." However, in Greek it is, μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν. Now, this "mi isenenkis," does it really mean "don't LEAD?" I am asking because people sometimes say, it's Satan who "leads" people into temptation, not God. Any ethymological clues? Thanks!
It literally means "that you lead us not into temptation."
This negative subjunctive imperative, mirrors Spanish's negative imperative.
Y no nos metas en tentación. Latin just copied the Koine negative imperative "et  ne inducas nos in temptationem."
But the Classical Latin negative imperative would have been: Noli inducere nos in temptationem.
Logged
Gamliel
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 2,326



« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2014, 11:34:18 PM »

For those who know Greek, about a month ago, I cracked open a book about Classical Greek and just saw verbs for the first time a week ago.  I recognize the stem εἰσενέγκ as being an aorist stem, but I was wondering what the suffix ῃς stands for? Is it for the second person singular or something else?
Logged
Cymbyz
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 496



« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2014, 12:39:15 AM »

The ending is 2nd person singular subjunctive.  The verb is in the aorist to indicate that the action is not continuous or repeated.
Logged

The end of the world
is as near as the day of your death;
watch and pray.
 
 Yahoo! & WLM ID: Owen
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.063 seconds with 39 queries.