Author Topic: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem  (Read 27605 times)

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Offline rakovsky

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Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« on: August 25, 2010, 02:56:44 PM »
Quote
Israel razes Christian ancient site in Jerusalem
August 2010 , http://rofto.net/en/2010/08/israel-razes-christian-ancient-site-in-o-jerusalem



Father Atallah Hanna, the Greek orthodox patriarchate of occupied Jerusalem, said the Israeli municipal council in the holy city demolished and obliterated Christian ancient monuments dating from the Byzantine era in the Ein Kerem area. “We strongly condemn this heinous crime committed against the Christian antiquities in Ein Kerem, which is the birthplace of Saint John the Baptist and his family, and where Virgin Mary lived plenty of the time,” father Hanna stressed.

The Israeli municipal council in coordination with the authority of antiquities and the ministry of tourism is now building illegal stores on the ruins of Christian monuments discovered in a piece of land adjacent to the spring of Virgin Mary (Mary’s well). Lawyer Qais Naser, a specialist in planning and building law, said that the Israeli ministry of tourism and the municipal council in Jerusalem refused to keep the Christian historical site. Naser affirmed that the Israeli excavations revealed an important Christian ancient site related to the spring of the Virgin Mary, but the Israeli occupation authority (IOA) insisted on demolishing it and building stores in its place.


Quote
Two Day Jerusalem Sightseeing Tour
Sightseeing Tour in Jerusalem, by Desert Ecological Tours
We spend the first day covering the major sights of the Old City of Jerusalem. Beginning on the Mount Of Olives and exploring all the major sites within the city walls.  

The second day take we get well off the beaten track and visit sights outside the city walls, we tour the best of Jerusalem's scenic countryside in the area of the picturesque village of  Ein Karem (Biblical Judah and birthplace of John the Baptist). We walk through its woodlands and explore its hidden gems of natural beauty and historic importance. We find here the Church of John the Baptist and Mary's well. Making our way back to central Jerusalem we tour one of Israel's most important sites, the haunting Holocaust memorial of Yad Vashem.

http://www.desertecotours.com/english/jerusalem_tours_sightseeing.asp

 :-[
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 03:04:59 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2010, 03:06:37 PM »
I'm going to send this link to a Coptic friend of mine who couldn't believe that Israel will destroy Christian sites as well when they get the chance.
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2010, 03:07:01 PM »
 >:(

Lord have mercy!


Offline Fr. George

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2010, 03:14:09 PM »
Lord have mercy. A sad day for the preservation of antiquities. 

It is a good thing that the Theotokos and St. John are able to be present with us through the power of the Risen Lord regardless of location; if we depended on the shrines for contact, where would we be?
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2010, 03:38:13 PM »
Cultural terrorism/obliteration of cultural memory.
They would probably like to destroy every sign that points to a non-Jewish past there.
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Offline observer

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2010, 08:23:07 PM »
Very sad  but been done before. They exposed ancient mosaics near Jaffa Gate and left they to the weather.
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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2010, 10:05:46 PM »

That's so sad!

....and yet I didn't hear this on my news station.  Hmmmm.
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Offline Punch

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2010, 10:19:57 PM »

That's so sad!

....and yet I didn't hear this on my news station.  Hmmmm.

I'm shocked.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2010, 10:35:48 PM »
Before we start blaming the "Israelis" please read this:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/business/ein-karem-under-threat-1.310061

As usual, the reality is a bit more complicated. ;)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 10:36:02 PM by theistgal »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2010, 12:31:25 AM »
Theistgal,

Thanks for posting the Haaretz article.

It begins with a beautiful portrayal of the shrine:

Quote
The unique connection between the biblical scenery, Christian heritage and architecture of a nearly flawlessly preserved Arab village. Visitors usually stop at Mary's Well, where according to Christian tradition Jesus's mother met Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist, when both women bore the children in their wombs. Across from the spring visitors have a view of the green valley, with traces of ancient agricultural terracing. The picturesque slopes and steeples of the churches and monasteries, seven in total...

It next explains what you might be referring to as a more complicated reality- the Israel Lands Administration's plan for more building in the area:

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The mystery surrounding the building at the spring is just one symptom of the problematic conduct regarding the village in recent decades. Now the ILA is planning to sell 72 plots intended for private homes. Part A of the plan - a total of 30 houses - has already been implemented. a large high-density construction project is planned for the Carmit boarding school compound, where developers want to put up 18-story apartment blocks. The ILA is planning another high-density project of 54 units in terraced buildings.

A municipal light rail line slated to connect the institution to the city will pass above the five golden domes of the Moskovia monastery. The outline plan for Ein Karem stipulates it is possible to add 1,020 plots for construction.

The article explains that the construction is on the land of Palestinians who fled the warzone:

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The place was inhabited by [Israeli] immigrants from Morocco, Yemen and Romania who had settled there after the Palestinian inhabitants fled from their homes during the War of Independence... in the 1980s and 1990s an affluent population started to move in and today it has 2,000 inhabitants.


Sabeel's pilgrimage tour mentions:

Quote
Jerusalem Old City Tour and the Way of the Cross - we toured the Christian and Armenian Quarters of the Old City with a special focus on Armenian sites.
Ein Karem - tour of a Palestinian Christian village depopulated in 1948. The homes still stand, but the military prevents anyone from returning although Israelis have moved in and stay in the remaining houses.
Contemporary Way of the Cross - after walking the traditional path through the Old City of Jerusalem where Jesus walked before he was crucified, we also walked a path of modern day suffering, seeing settlements and depopulated villages.

Visited Holy Sites, following the footprints of Jesus.
Prominent local religious leaders spoke with us from multiple Christian traditions: Copts, Greek Orthodox, Melkites and Armenians. We met Bishop Younan, Father Rafiq Khoury, Father Afrayem Orshalme, Father Saleh Khoury, Father Romanos Radwan, Bishop Attalah Hannah, Father Jack Nobel, Father Raed Abu Sahlieh
Bible study: Father Rafiq Khoury gave an interesting bible study on the life of John the Baptist. The bible study took place in a Roman Catholic convent in Ein Karem, the birth Place of John the Baptist.

http://www.fosna.org/files/fosna/events/YoungAdult2009%20ConferenceReport.pdf
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 12:36:58 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2010, 12:36:52 AM »
You left out some of the info from the article I linked - namely that part of the reasom for all the new construction is because of the large influx of tourists to the area and efforts to accommodate them with bathrooms, parking lots, etc.  Not necessarily an intentional attempt to obliterate Christian artifacts, as seems to be implied by some.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2010, 12:57:03 AM »
You left out some of the info from the article I linked - namely that part of the reasom for all the new construction is because of the large influx of tourists to the area and efforts to accommodate them with bathrooms, parking lots, etc.  Not necessarily an intentional attempt to obliterate Christian artifacts, as seems to be implied by some.
Theistgal,

Sure, some construction in the area is for Christian "tourists" to the site. But it seems like if the main concern was for Christian pilgrims, then the Israeli Land Administration would have concern for the wishes of the Christians and the Church themselves.

This would seem a strange kind of planning- obliteration of Christian artefacts over the church's opposition and building a train on top of the Moskovia monastery- for the sake of pilgrimages to those artefacts.

While some of the construction in the general area is for Christian pilgrims, the article itself belies a certain attitude toward them- that the "tourists" are intruding on the peace and quiet of Israeli residents:

Quote
the trip to Ein Karem is somewhat less pastoral. Scores of tourist buses pull up, and in the absence of sufficient parking spots they stand in a long line along the narrow Hama'ayan Street, where the well is located. The noise and soot they emit is augmented by the traffic on the road leading up to Jerusalem. The police forbids vehicles weighing more than four tons - but who cares? A kiosk would be erected "which would see to cleanliness" - so the tourists would stop using the yards of neighboring homes when nature called.

When I read the article, Theistgal, most of the construction, like the stores now being built on the spring, appeared to be for Israeli settlements.

The article concludes by explaining who gets a say in planning construction:
Quote
The ILA is acting in accordance with the Jerusalem municipality's city engineer department on coordinating the proposed planning, with the action committee representing the village residents, and with preservation consultants."


Where is the Church, who built the site many centuries ago? Where are the native Christians who lived on it for two thousand years?

Your friend,
Hal
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 01:01:15 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2010, 01:03:18 AM »
Oy ... I give up.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2010, 01:59:23 AM »
Israel seems to be giving Christians less and less reason to support them.  First Jerusalem demands that the Church of the Holy Sepulcher pays for water used decades ago...and now Israel is blatantly destroying Christian sites for no apparent reason.  If news outlets in the US bothered to mention it to anyone, Israel just might have to worry about Christian support over here - given that it makes up much of the support in the US and the US makes up much of Israel's international support.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2010, 12:41:57 PM »
OK, I'm going to try again - the article linked by the OP is slanted and makes it sound like "Israel" has destroyed Christian (Orthodox) sites as a deliberate act of anti-Christian bigotry - reading it you would think it was some kind of terrorist action.

The reality according to the article I linked (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/business/ein-karem-under-threat-1.310061) is that it is not just Christian antiquities that are being damaged, there is an ancient Jewish mikvah (bath) that has been damaged as well.

To mischaracterize this as yet another "Jews vs. Christians" story is to miss the real problem, which we have right here in the U.S. - rapid development vs. preservation; business versus tradition.  

We had a similar issue right here in L.A. a few years ago, when Cardinal Mahoney tried to tear down historic old St. Vibiana's Cathedral to make way for his new megacathedral.  He actually tried to do this in the middle of the night, managing to topple the old bell tower before the authorities stopped him and the historical preservationists got a judge to issue a stay against him.  That's why he wound up moving the location to the other side of town.  The secularists actually did more to preserve this beautiful old church than the Christian (RC) bishop who was supposed to be its protector!! :(
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 12:42:33 PM by theistgal »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2010, 01:25:05 PM »
Theistgal,

Can you please point to where the article says there is an ancient Jewish mikvah (bath) that has been damaged?

I am having trouble finding it.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 01:26:03 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2010, 01:36:49 PM »
Sorry, should have clarified - the Mikvah I heard about on a local talk show, a Jewish guy with relatives in that area said a lot of people - Jews as well as Christians - are concerned about saving all these historical sites, and he described an ancient mikvah that was found in the same area as Mary's Spring.

Sorry can't provide any more info or links as I'm on my Palm and off in search of cooler temps!! :D
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Offline Father H

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2010, 01:44:09 PM »
TG.  But this is truly sad nonetheless, right?   

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2010, 03:13:18 PM »
on a local talk show, a Jewish guy described an ancient mikvah that was found in the same area as Mary's Spring.

Sorry can't provide any more info :D

Theistgal,

Sure, another article mentioned Israeli archeologists discovering an ancient Mikvah in a church cellar elsewhere in the village:

Quote
Researchers claim they have found the first evidence of Jewish settlement in the village of Ein Karem, during the Second Temple period. The researchers claim that a water cistern that was uncovered in the cellar of the village's Church of St. John the Baptist a mikveh, a Jewish ritual bath. This discovery could be important for Christianity as well, since the cistern is the first evidence to support the traditional view that Zachary, St. John the Baptist's father, lived in Ein Karem.

Father Sahler, a Franciscan monk and archaeologist who ran digs in the 1840s, found a mysterious hole... Sahler did not attribute importance to the discovery and assumed it was a water hole. Amirav, lecturer at the University of Haifa, said "As soon as we saw it, we thought it looked like a ritual bath." Prof. Ronny Reich, the chairman of the University of Haifa's archaeology department, verified the researchers' assumption. Reich recognized a number of elements at the site that were unique to ritual baths at that time. However, the monastery's abbot and his deputy do not accept this analysis and maintain it is merely a regular cistern. It is possible Amirav's approach contributed to this position, as he called on the monastery to discuss allowing visitors free access to it.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/mikveh-proves-earliest-jewish-presence-in-ein-karem-1.129599

Now that Haifa's archeology department has discovered it is an ancient Mikvah, I don't think it's going anywhere. LOL.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 03:18:30 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2010, 03:57:05 PM »
Your article mentions in passing a Byzantine water system in the area, which serves as an example:

Quote
During the construction, traces of water systems from the Byzantine periods were found. Local residents wanted to reconstruct and restore them for use, but the Tourism Ministry said there was no budget and instead spent another NIS 1 million to cover the finds.


There, the debate is whether Israeli residents will remodel Byzantine water systems for their own use or whether the Tourism Ministry will "cover up" the discoveries, which it did.

The Church, the pilgrims, and Palestinian descendants of the aqueduct's builders might prefer more excavation to learn about the Byzantine period. They might prefer the site be left alone. Where is their viewpoint in the discussion?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 04:23:15 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2010, 04:54:20 PM »
I read the article.  True, the building of kiosks and public bathrooms should help tourists, but rather the authorities seem to go have other things in mind:

Quote
About a decade ago, exhausted by repeated battles against the authorities, Ein Karem residents initiated an independent master plan for the village, designed by architects Peter Bugod and Philip Brandeis. The plan contained, for the first time, a definition of Ein Karem as an entire visual basin including the surrounding landscape. The plan envisaged new development for tourism needs only, and physical separation from the city. The residents created a precedent when the regional planning and building committee agreed to adopt extensive parts of the plan.

What in the end prevented its approval was a damages order that would have obligated the residents to compensate every individual or developer who could prove he had been harmed by the plan. Ultimately, the plan faded away and the out-of-pocket money the residents had invested went down the drain.

Now the ILA is planning to sell 72 plots intended for private homes in several parts of the village. Part A of the plan - a total of 30 houses - has already been implemented in the eastern part of the village. The construction was accompanied by a clear set of regulations including design instructions, but according to Ein-Mor not a single one of the houses conforms with the code. "If they told them to plan cornices and chimneys, then instead there are swimming pools and electric gates. There is no connection between them and the traditional construction," she says.

Some of the houses are slated for one of the most sensitive parts of the village, where the view of natural woodland and church spires will mingle with solar panels and antennae on the houses' roofs. The Tourism Ministry and Jerusalem municipality are also promoting the spring building and adjacent 45-room hotel.

Filmmaker Ron Havilio, a village resident, explains that the most problematic part of the plan is the shortage of parking spaces. "On busy days the whole village is under siege. On Hama'ayan Street now there are 1,000 seats in restaurants and cafes, and in the new hotel another 500 seats are planned for a restaurant and events hall. Do you know how many regulated parking spots there are in Ein Karem? A total of 69."

...

This is a classic case of preservation versus development - the residents want to stop development while the authorities want to exploit the surrounding open areas for construction.

...

 Despite the sympathy for the protest, halting the development also expresses a clear economic interest in maintaining the soaring real estate values of the residents' houses. The uniqueness of the village lies not only in the landscape and the holy sites, but also in the vernacular architecture ("architecture without architects" ) that has been preserved there. This is one of the largest concentrations of Palestinian village construction in Israel and the West Bank.

Under British Mandate plans it was designated for preservation along with the villages of Lifta, al-Malkha and Deir Yassin, all of which have since been destroyed.

This is a clear case of Israel trying to kick the Palestinians out.  The article has some messages in it that indicates this, which is something that Israel repeatedly has done to Palestinians, chipping them off the land of Israel (Palestine) little by little for Israeli Jews to live in.  If they really sincerely wanted to turn this into a tourist place, why neglect making parking lots, and instead turn these places into private homes?  Why make impossible deals for the residents that can jeopardize their ability to stay living there?

The article proves nothing but Israel's determination to wipe out non-Israelis out of the land in the most subtle way possible.  This has been repeated time and time again in Israel's past, and this is one of their most recent moves.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 04:56:14 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2010, 05:59:28 PM »
(Sigh) This constant desire by some posters here to paint Israel (code word for "Jews") in the worst, most evil ways, making them the villains whenever possible, is one big reason I've held back from converting to EO.  I'm hoping this is primarily an "Internet Orthodox" thing and not part of mainstream Orthodoxy, but threads like this make me wonder. :(
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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2010, 06:03:28 PM »
(Sigh) This constant desire by some posters here to paint Israel (code word for "Jews") in the worst, most evil ways, making them the villains whenever possible, is one big reason I've held back from converting to EO.  I'm hoping this is primarily an "Internet Orthodox" thing and not part of mainstream Orthodoxy, but threads like this make me wonder. :(

Why do you assume I am anti-Jewish?  See, this is why when one professes the hatred of Israeli policies, one automatically calls people like me an anti-Semite.  You are either being intentionally dishonest or misunderstanding my views.  If you understand what Palestinian Christians are going through, you can understand my problem, as an Arab Christian, with Israel always intruding on Palestinian land to build homes for Jews when opportunity strikes.  This not an issue with EO's.  Even Arab Catholics are in full agreement with us in this.

If a Christian government forced a community of Jews to get out to build homes for Christians, I would also be against that.  Israel has a pattern in history, and it's repeating this pattern with this particular village.  This is about justice, not about Jews, Christians, Catholic or Orthodox.  It's about what's right.  If you're to resort to some sort of fictional internet bigotry, what makes one not accuse you of the same against Arabic people?  Maybe you should avoid being in communion with Arabs and join White-Anglo-Saxon Orthodox Christians.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 06:09:07 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2010, 09:23:29 PM »
Israel seems to be giving Christians less and less reason to support them.  First Jerusalem demands that the Church of the Holy Sepulcher pays for water used decades ago...and now Israel is blatantly destroying Christian sites for no apparent reason.  If news outlets in the US bothered to mention it to anyone, Israel just might have to worry about Christian support over here - given that it makes up much of the support in the US and the US makes up much of Israel's international support.

No, not really. Most of the type who support the Zionist entity do not care about Eastern Christians in the first place. As a matter of fact, most of them mistake us for Muslims, or at least identify us as more similar to them.

Offline deusveritasest

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2010, 09:23:29 PM »
(Sigh) This constant desire by some posters here to paint Israel (code word for "Jews") in the worst, most evil ways, making them the villains whenever possible, is one big reason I've held back from converting to EO.  I'm hoping this is primarily an "Internet Orthodox" thing and not part of mainstream Orthodoxy, but threads like this make me wonder. :(

Perhaps they really are more evil than you would like to believe.

Offline theistgal

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2010, 10:01:12 PM »
Perhaps they're not. :)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2010, 12:17:44 AM »
Quote
This is one of the largest concentrations of Palestinian village construction in Israel and the West Bank. Under British Mandate plans it was designated for preservation along with the villages of Lifta, al-Malkha and Deir Yassin, all of which have since been destroyed.
Israel trying to kick the Palestinians out...  is something that Israel repeatedly has done to Palestinians

(Sigh) This constant desire by some posters here to paint Israel (code word for "Jews") in the worst, most evil ways, making them the villains whenever possible, is one big reason I've held back from converting to EO.

Theistgal,

If the Orthodox faith means painting an entire ethnicity, the Jews, in the worst evil ways possible, then you should not convert to it. We must judge individuals' actions, beliefs, and morality, rather than their race.

At a youth talk, the theologian Father Hopko told us- the Jewish Sanhedrin gave Christ up to the Roman empire for death. We all crucified Christ. Then, the Scriptures say, at Pentecost, the Lord sent the Holy Spirit down and he washed away all the sinful guilt in Jerusalem. Hopko said that we look at individuals on each case, rather than applying generalizations about their ethnicity to them.

This is the Orthodox teaching.

If antisemitism in Orthodoxy is a concern for you, I urge you to explore and ask questions on the thread "Antisemitism in the Orthodox Church."
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17454.0.html

Personally, I like Jews and find Jewish culture interesting.

When we look at the treatment of Palestinian Christians- our Church- by the State of Israel we must come from a standpoint of love for our fellow Christians, love for Israeli Jews, and yes love for Palestinian Muslims. Love and forgiveness for persecutor and persecuted is one of the hardest challenges of our faith.

Like you, I strongly disagree with making "Israelis" a codeword for Jews around the world.

Not only is there an International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, but when the wife of Father Khoury presented to us students about the suffering of Palestinians, the moderate American Zionist student group J-Street was in attendance and was sincerely sympathetic. I prefer to believe that if American Jews knew about Christians living in the Holy Land that they would feel sympathy just as I do when reading the report Minasoliman quoted above.

If you are interested in the general issue of the State of Israel's treatment of native Christians, I encourage you to explore and write on the Politics thread http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,28376.0.html

Many Blessings!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 12:48:42 AM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2010, 12:44:20 AM »
This is about justice, not about Jews, Christians, Catholic or Orthodox.  It's about what's right.
Well said. Thank you.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 12:50:11 AM by rakovsky »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2010, 01:13:11 AM »
In fact, if anything, we should seek to love the Jews as St. Paul did:

"For I wish that I myself would be cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers." (Romans 9:3)

What greater love than this!  That a man would want to sacrifice his own soul for the salvation of his whole race!

This love I aspire to have.  My beef is with Zionism, not the Jews as a whole.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Father H

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2010, 01:08:49 PM »
(Sigh) This constant desire by some posters here to paint Israel (code word for "Jews") in the worst, most evil ways, making them the villains whenever possible, is one big reason I've held back from converting to EO.  I'm hoping this is primarily an "Internet Orthodox" thing and not part of mainstream Orthodoxy, but threads like this make me wonder. :(

Yes, "internet Orthodoxy" (or internet anything) is definitely a different beast from the thing as it exists in reality.   On the internet, you can speak without thinking, argue without seeing the other person's face or hearing their voice.   Also, there is a limited number of "voices" that certainly is not representative of the whole.   But in general, is it an anti-Israel thing or a love for longstanding things being removed?   If the palestinians or Jordanians were doing it, there would still be the same concern.   I think you are interpreting something that is not there--people just want governments to stop destroying Orthodox things.   Some may be anti-Israel, but considering that there are both Israeli and Palestinian Christians, when either side is unfavorable to Christianity it is natural to be upset.   

Offline Father H

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2010, 01:13:49 PM »
This is about justice, not about Jews, Christians, Catholic or Orthodox.  It's about what's right.
Well said. Thank you.

Agreed, being against unjust actions from any government does not equate to being "anti-Israeli" when it is Israel doing the action.  If they are removing other longstanding archaeological artifacts, this is also upsetting.   Likewise, being against the actions of Israel on some points certainly does not make one anti-semitic.   They shouldn't be destroying Jewish or Christian artifacts.   

Offline Father H

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2010, 01:18:42 PM »
(Sigh) This constant desire by some posters here to paint Israel (code word for "Jews") in the worst, most evil ways, making them the villains whenever possible, is one big reason I've held back from converting to EO.  I'm hoping this is primarily an "Internet Orthodox" thing and not part of mainstream Orthodoxy, but threads like this make me wonder. :(

Also, to say that "Israel" is a codeword for "Jews" is not a just accusation.   That is like saying that "England" is a codeword for Anglicans, "Italy" is a codeword for Roman Catholics, and "Bulgaria" is a codeword for Orthodox.   There are many many Israeli citizens who are Orthodox Christians, so no one is going to use "Israel" as a codeword for "Jews." 

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2010, 01:23:44 PM »
(Sigh) This constant desire by some posters here to paint Israel (code word for "Jews") in the worst, most evil ways, making them the villains whenever possible, is one big reason I've held back from converting to EO.  I'm hoping this is primarily an "Internet Orthodox" thing and not part of mainstream Orthodoxy, but threads like this make me wonder. :(

There is a lot of anti-semitism among Orthodox Christians. It is sinful, shameful, and deserving of condemnation.

However, Christianity teaches us to take care of the poor, the oppressed, the widow, the orphan, the sick, the needy. In the Israel-Palestine conflict, these are the Palestinians. I know many wonderful Israelis, and many more wonderful Jews, but the State of Israel is a brutal, oppressive and ruthless reigeme. When that changes, so will my anti-Zionism.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2010, 01:27:46 PM »
There is a lot of anti-semitism among Orthodox Christians. It is sinful, shameful, and deserving of condemnation.

However, Christianity teaches us to take care of the poor, the oppressed, the widow, the orphan, the sick, the needy. In the Israel-Palestine conflict, these are the Palestinians. I know many wonderful Israelis, and many more wonderful Jews, but the State of Israel is a brutal, oppressive and ruthless reigeme. When that changes, so will my anti-Zionism.

I completely agree.

Offline Father H

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2010, 01:32:00 PM »
Perhaps they're not. :)

(to this post and the previous to which it was a response). 
Is it possible that at this point some are talking past each other?    It seems although both are using the term "Israel" that some are talking about the government of Israel and its policies and others are talking about the people of Israel?   

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2010, 03:58:17 PM »
There is a lot of anti-semitism among Orthodox Christians. It is sinful, shameful, and deserving of condemnation.

However, Christianity teaches us to take care of the poor, the oppressed, the widow, the orphan, the sick, the needy. In the Israel-Palestine conflict, these are the Palestinians. I know many wonderful Israelis, and many more wonderful Jews, but the State of Israel is a brutal, oppressive and ruthless reigeme. When that changes, so will my anti-Zionism.

I completely agree.

Yey! Me too!
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2011, 12:21:07 PM »
Minasoliman,

It's nice that you care about the Christians in the Holy Land. Also, it's a benefit that you see different sides of problems.

You commented:
Quote
I'm going to send this link to a Coptic friend of mine who couldn't believe that Israel will destroy Christian sites as well when they get the chance.
It seems true that Israel, by which you mean its government, sometimes destroys Christian sites when it has the chance, even when unnecessary. For example, in the 1970's the government did construction in the ghost-village of Al-Bassa. During the construction, the builders discovered an ancient Byzantine site with a mosaic. Israel had a chance to destroy it, and it did, by building a road on top. If you look at a 2nd-dimensional plane, like the outline of an industrial site, and then a longer 1-dimensional line, like a road, you may notice that the line can fit in many places across the plane. It would make sense that the government could have built the road around the site, but instead chose to disregard the site and build on it. One counterargument could be that they wouldn't have demolished it if they didn't have to build a road. That's true, but here the road gave them the chance to destroy it. Another counterargument could be if there was no way to build the road anyplace else, but I doubt that. It seems more likely that the builders didn't care because it was in a ghost village.

Other times though, Israeli society doesn't always destroy a site when it has the chance. For example, there are some ruins of Christian sites in other ghost-villages. The government could create a pretext for destroying them, and then waste its resources in destroying them. Instead, it lets some of them remain. On the other hand, unless the refugess return to the villages, the Israeli government will probably remove the ruins at some point.

When you say "as well" in the statement:
Quote
couldn't believe that Israel will destroy Christian sites as well when they get the chance.
what you seem to mean is that you are comparing the destruction of Christian sites by Israeli and Muslim society, since there is some discrimination by some Muslims in Egypt.
I don't know how much destruction there is of Christian sites by Muslims. But in Medieval times there was a case where an Egyptian caliph destroyed almost all the churches in the Holy Land. Granted, it's foreseeable that rival religious factions might've destroyed eachothers' places of worship in Medieval times. There was the case where an associate of Mohammed, an Arab Caliph chose to leave the Church of the Holy Sepulchre at prayer time, because he was afraid that if he prayed there it would be turned into a mosque. Instead, he wanted the church to be preserved.

My impression is that social conditions in many Muslim countries are more like the third world and like medieval times than in Israel. I don't say this as an offense or as an excuse, but as an explanation. It seems like the more modern developed countries are less likely to take destructive actions against religious sites. It seems like more modernist countries are less likely to take destructive actions against religious sites. But on the other hand, Stalin tried to be a modernizer and he destroyed Moscow's Church of the Savior. So this can't be set out as a strong rule. After all, it could be said that Stalin was acting out of religious motivations too- ie his rules about religion.

Just at the moment religious fanaticism in Israel seems to be weaker than among some Muslims elsewhere, so it seems less likely that Israel would destroy other religions' sites. Israel still tries to be a modern, somewhat democratic, somewhat secular society within its borders, so I think as a general principle they avoid destroying sites simply for religious motivations.

It's good you read Theistgal's article, because it's informative.

It appears you're right when you said:
Quote
True, the building of kiosks and public bathrooms should help tourists, but rather the authorities seem to go have other things in mind
My understanding from the article was that kiosks and bathrooms were already built and what the Church disagrees with is construction that isn't clearly for tourist purposes, but which could actually be being built as stores for the settlement.

You backed up your comment by highlighting from the article:
Quote
The plan envisaged new development for tourism needs only, and physical separation from the city. The residents created a precedent when the regional planning and building committee agreed to adopt extensive parts of the plan.
What in the end prevented its approval was a damages order that would have obligated the residents to compensate every individual or developer who could prove he had been harmed by the plan. Ultimately, the plan faded away and the out-of-pocket money the residents had invested went down the drain.
Now the ILA is planning to sell 72 plots intended for private homes
What you are emphasizing is that there was originally a tourism-oriented plan, but that the settlement resisted it and the plan stopped, apparently because of a court order that would charge the planners for damage from the plan. Now, a new plan is proposed to sell land for private homes, which is different from tourism.

I'm not sure why you highlighted this:
Quote
Filmmaker Ron Havilio, a village resident, explains that the most problematic part of the plan is the shortage of parking spaces.
Except that it further suggests that the plan isn't to accommodate the influx from tourism, because it doesn't deal with the parking space problem from tourism.

Also, it appears that to back up your next point you highlighted this:
Quote
This is one of the largest concentrations of Palestinian village construction in Israel and the West Bank.
Under British Mandate plans it was designated for preservation along with the villages of Lifta, al-Malkha and Deir Yassin, all of which have since been destroyed.
This citation would back up the idea that the Palestinians should have a say in what happens to the site, and have a claim to it, because they have been living there for centuries.

I highly doubt that what is going on now "is a clear case of Israel trying to kick the Palestinians out", because the Palestinians who lived there have already been kicked out. Still, further destruction of the native site does further serve to psychologically weaken the Palestinian Christans' heritage links to the area.

It makes sense when you write:
Quote
The article has some messages in it that indicates this, which is something that Israel repeatedly has done to Palestinians, chipping them off the land of Israel (Palestine) little by little for Israeli Jews to live in. If they really sincerely wanted to turn this into a tourist place, why neglect making parking lots, and instead turn these places into private homes?
What you are suggesting is that:
(a) the native Palestinians have a claim to the place because they lived there for centuries
(b) turning the site into a development of private homes weakens their ability to reclaim the land because more other people would be living there instead.
(c) turning the place into a development space for homes doesn't seem to be simply for that purpose, because it seems from the article that there is a greater need for tourism accommodations and for parking.
(d) turning the place into a development for private homes seems to contradict the need for parking places from tourism, so the construction isn't simply out of a strong desire to accommodate tourism
(e) so instead your conclusion is that the main purpose of the construction appears to be for non-Palestinian residential and commercial development, which contradicts the claims of Palestinians who have been living there for centuries.

I think the Israeli government would be ok with these points, except for (a), because I think it doesn't care about Palestinians' claims to the land the Israeli government claims. Except that some figures in the Israeli government, like perhaps Defense Minister Barak, accept Palestinians' claims to at least some of the area of Jerusalem. By this, I do not even mean claims to having a Palestinian state, but even to family claims to the land.

However, either you or I are confused about your statement here:
Quote
Why make impossible deals for the residents that can jeopardize their ability to stay living there?
My impression from the article was that the Palestinian residents had already left during the 1948 Nakba:
Quote
The place was inhabited by [Israeli] immigrants from Morocco, Yemen and Romania who had settled there after the Palestinian inhabitants fled from their homes during the War of Independence... in the 1980s and 1990s an affluent population started to move in and today it has 2,000 inhabitants.
Here, it says that the Palestinians fled, but this statement could be misleading, because there were cases in that time when the Palestinians were driven out by the Israeli army, and because there is a tendency in their society to deny that such expulsions occurred.

I somewhat disagree with your statement:
Quote
The article proves nothing but Israel's determination to wipe out non-Israelis out of the land in the most subtle way possible.  This has been repeated time and time again in Israel's past, and this is one of their most recent moves.
(a) The article proves other things, like that even some of the non-Palestinian residents are unhappy about the development. It suggests that the local Israeli community has more control over the municipality's decisions than the Church does, because unlike the Church here, the local community was able to control the intended planning with a court order. The article also proves that the site is important for Christian pilgrimages.
(b) It isn't clear from the article that the government's intent is to wipe non-Israelis out of the land, because the government doesn't say that this is it's intent, and because the government's reason, building stores is at least a valid, nondiscriminatory reason. On the other hand, if this was its intent "in the most subtle way possible", like you said, then this wouldn't be clear, either.
(c) It has happened in the recent Israeli past, however, where housing permits were consistenly refused to Palestinian Christians and Muslims, but allowed for Jewish Israelis. I am sorry to say this, because I like Jews, partly because in America and Europe a big majority of them oppose ethnic and religious discrimination on principle.

I don't know why theistgal assumed you were anti-Jewish, since you didn't disparage Jews collectively. One guess is that she is unaware of the situation with Palestinians, eg. their refugee status, your strong criticisms seem irrational to her, and she assumes they must come from a bad motivation like anti-Semitism.

I assume you mean to say: "See, this is why when one professes the hatred of Israeli policies, one automatically calls people like me an anti-Semite: You are either being intentionally dishonest or misunderstanding my views." Your comment makes sense, because you give a good, anti-racist reason to strongly criticise Israeli policies:
Quote
If you understand what Palestinian Christians are going through, you can understand my problem, as an Arab Christian, with Israel always intruding on Palestinian land to build homes for Jews when opportunity strikes.

When you comment: "This not an issue with EO's. Even Arab Catholics are in full agreement with us in this.", what it seems you mean is that EO and Arab Catholics don't internally argue over whether this apparently unofficial "replacement" policy is bad. I read a range of comments on this topic, and don't remember EOs or Arab Catholics defending this or denying it happens.

It's good that you say:
Quote
If a Christian government forced a community of Jews to get out to build homes for Christians, I would also be against that. This is about justice, not about Jews, Christians, Catholic or Orthodox.  It's about what's right.
It's only in this specific example that Jews and Christians are involved. The broader pinciple at work is that people have a right to live in their region where they have lived for centuries, and that there should be some responsibility to them for what important decisions are made about their holy sites.

You seem correct when you say: "Israel has a pattern in history, and it's repeating this pattern with this particular village." For example, the ghost-village of Al-Bassa had some Byzantine ruins that were destroyed and built over with a road. Here, the site with Mary's Well has some Byzantine ruins that are being built over for some development, which could be for stores or tourism.

You asked: "If you're to resort to some sort of fictional internet bigotry, what makes one not accuse you of the same against Arabic people?" If one feels that he/she would be accusing her of fictional bigotry, then one might be dissuaded by a sense of honesty, knowing that she didn't have such bigotry.

It's funny when you said:
Quote
Maybe you should avoid being in communion with Arabs and join White-Anglo-Saxon Orthodox Christians.
I can't tell if you felt hurt and were sarcastic or serious. However, whether she stays Catholic or joins W.A.S.O.C.s she will still be in communion with Arabs, because there are alot of Arab Catholics and Orthodox. :)

Cheer up :)

I find it more beautiful when we are in communion with more nationalities.

I agree with you when you say:
Quote
In fact, if anything, we should seek to love the Jews as St. Paul did:

"For I wish that I myself would be cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers." (Romans 9:3)

What greater love than this!  That a man would want to sacrifice his own soul for the salvation of his whole race!

This love I aspire to have.  My beef is with Zionism, not the Jews as a whole.
However, I feel I might be too spiritually weak and also weak in faith to aspire to such great love that I "would want to sacrifice his own soul for the salvation of his[or my] whole race!"

Here, St Paul appears to say that he would rather be "cursed and cut off from Christ" if it would mean his brothers would be saved." By "brothers" he specifies that he means other Israelites.

Also, I'm not sure that my beef is with Zionism per se, since it seems like Zionism could just mean Jews living in the Holy Land, without having any domineering political implications.

Eirene.


Andrew21091,
I agree. It's sad.

Take care.


Fr. George,

You made a good point when you wrote:
Quote
It is a good thing that the Theotokos and St. John are able to be present with us through the power of the Risen Lord regardless of location; if we depended on the shrines for contact, where would we be?
If we depended on the shrines for contact, then we would probably have to stay physically close to the shrines for it. Then if the shrines were destroyed, it would also destroy our contact with Christ. Some shrines have been destroyed, and others lost, so you're right that it's a good thing our contact doesn't depend on them.

Father Bless.



augustin717,

I agree that this would be "obliteration of cultural memory."

On the other hand, it's not "Cultural terrorism", because it's not taken with the intent  to terrorize Christians. Plus, I think that the government would respond sincerely that it doesn't wish to terrorize Christians for their religion in relation to this act. It's more like their attitude is that the Christians' views and heritage don't count here.

I disagree with your statement:
Quote
They would probably like to destroy every sign that points to a non-Jewish past there.
Even the extremists probably don't care about some things that points to a Jewish past there. For example, there was a discovery within the last year of a tooth some archeologists proposed as prehistoric. The tooth would probably pre-date Noah's Ark resting on Mt Ararat near Armenia, if such an event happened. The tooth would probably point to a non-Jewish past there, and they probably wouldn't care about destroying it. My guess is they would probably think it's ok.

Regards.



observer,

You commented:
Quote
Very sad  but been done before. They exposed ancient mosaics near Jaffa Gate and left they to the weather.
The case you mentioned sounds similar. The Jaffa gates are famous, so the mosaics you mentioned sound important. However, I wasn't able to find out about them on the internet from a brief google search.

Regards.


LizaSymonenko and Punch,

It's funny when you write:
Quote
That's so sad!
....and yet I didn't hear this on my news station.  Hmmmm.

I'm shocked.





Theist Gal,

I want to see Christianity in the Holy Land prosper. The Holy Land is the birthplace of our faith, so it's special. The Christian sites have meaning too. I want them to be preserved so we can continue to enjoy their meaning.

It isn't clear why you put "Israelis" in quotation marks here:
Quote
Before we start blaming the "Israelis" please read this:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/business/ein-karem-under-threat-1.310061
I don't think that we should blame "the Israelis" because this is too broad a category to blame for the actions of a government agency. For example, I disagree with blaming "the Americans" for Segregation in our country, since a significant number of Americans were opposed to it. On the other hand, it seems to make sense to blame "Israeli society" and "American society" for these actions.

I have doubt about your words that I:
Quote
left out some of the info from the article I linked - namely that part of the reasom for all the new construction is because of the large influx of tourists to the area and efforts to accommodate them with bathrooms, parking lots, etc.
In the original post, I cited: "The Israeli municipal council in coordination with the authority of antiquities and the ministry of tourism is now building illegal stores..." So what I left out was that there was a large influx of tourists, and that part of the reason the government gives for all the construction is accommodation for the tourists.

The reason I have doubt about this is that the article you cited says:
Quote
Now the residents are concerned the service building will ultimately be used for other purposes. "They have built a Golem here in the middle of the village," says Pnina Ein-Mor, a public activist for Ein Karem's preservation. "In a few years it could become a wedding hall or a shopping mall or a parking facility."  
The mystery surrounding the building at the spring is just one symptom
In other words, it isn't clear whether the reason for this particular construction is for tourists, or to provide stores for the settlement that has replaced the native ghost-village.

So you're right that it's "Not necessarily an intentional attempt to obliterate Christian artifacts, as seems to be implied by some", by which you mean an attempt to obliterate them for the sake of obliterating them.

I think this was the point you were referring to when you wrote:
Quote
Oy ... I give up.
The "oy" is cute.

It sounded like Mina implied it was an intentional attempt to obliterate them for the sake of obliterating them when he said:
"Israel will destroy Christian sites as well when they get the chance".

Rather, the destruction appears to be for the sake of accommodations for tourists or for the settlement.

The article I cited in my original post appears to be slanted in favor of the Church and against the destruction of the site, because it begins with a citation by a church official giving the Church's opinion opposing the destruction. The term "slant" in your response has a negative connotation, as in "badly slanted". But this is an Orthodox forum, so the slant seems OK. Plus, I agree with the slant, because it seems like a mistake to destroy a Christian site if the Ministry of Tourism really values tourism to the sites.

If the article "makes it sound like "Israel" has destroyed Christian (Orthodox) sites as a deliberate act of anti-Christian bigotry", then it only appears to be the case insofar as that description is accurate. The original article didn't state that it was "a deliberate act of anti-Christian bigotry". It did say that "that the Israeli ministry of tourism and the municipal council in Jerusalem refused to keep the Christian historical site."

It does seem there could be be some bigotry in this to the detriment of Christianity, because bigotry means putting oneself above another in value. The municipal council put itself and its stores above the Church in refusing its requests about a very valuable site.

On the other hand, perhaps it wasn't bigoted. Hypothetically, the council could care about the church's views and the settlement's views equally, and decide that the profit motive of stores was more important than the religious value of the site.

I disagree that:
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reading it you would think it was some kind of terrorist action.
The article referred to it as a heinous crime, but alot of heinous crimes aren't terrorist actions. One problem with the article is that the Christian lawyer didn't explain why building on the site would be illegal. However, the Israeli Declaration of Independence says that the government must protect religious sites, so it would make sense that it would be a bad crime if the government destroyed the site instead.

You commented:
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To mischaracterize this as yet another "Jews vs. Christians" story is to miss the real problem, which we have right here in the U.S. - rapid development vs. preservation; business versus tradition.
1. It's true that here a government that dedicates itself to a Jewish society has taken an adverse action regarding something Christian in a dispute with the Church. But I feel that characterizing this as "another 'Jews vs Christians'" story is misleading, because (a) that would suggest that there is some inherent enmity between the two, when in fact there is some overlap between them, and (b) I assume that a significant portion of Jews around the world would disagree with destroying an important Christian site, even for the sake of building stores.

For example, in the 1930's, Stalin turned some churches into buildings like sports halls. But to classify it as a "Communists vs Christians" issue seems misleading, not because the decision had economic benefits, but because Stalin had an almost totalitarian society, and many Communists would've disagreed with this decision.

2. I do thing that there is a "real problem" with having a political system dedicated to only one of the three biggest religions in a place that plays an important role in Christianity and Judaism. This is a real problem with the story, because when an adverse action is taken regarding the other two religions, its adherents may naturally feel that their own beliefs weren't taken into account enough, because the decisionmaker dedicates itself to only one of the religions. This is particularly problematic because the area, Jerusalem, is disputed betwen the groups.

3. There does appear to be a problem of "rapid development vs. preservation; business versus tradition.", like you say, because what's being built on the site is apparently business development.

I am glad to hear that the story you mentioned turned out ok:
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We had a similar issue right here in L.A. a few years ago, when Cardinal Mahoney tried to tear down historic old St. Vibiana's Cathedral to make way for his new megacathedral.  He actually tried to do this in the middle of the night, managing to topple the old bell tower before the authorities stopped him and the historical preservationists got a judge to issue a stay against him.  That's why he wound up moving the location to the other side of town.  The secularists actually did more to preserve this beautiful old church than the Christian (RC) bishop who was supposed to be its protector!!
However, the story you mentioned is only partly similar. In my OP, the story was about the authorities tearing down a historic site over the objections of the Church, and the authorities prevailed. In your example, the Church leadership tried tearing down the historic site despite the wishes of the laypeople and the authorities, and in your example the authorities prevailed.

Another difference is that the church leadership in your example tried to teared it down, apparently because he aesthetically preferred a more modern look. In the OP article, the authorities teared it down for business value, and disregarded the site's artistic value.

You commented:
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Sorry, should have clarified - the Mikvah I heard about on a local talk show, a Jewish guy with relatives in that area said a lot of people - Jews as well as Christians - are concerned about saving all these historical sites, and he described an ancient mikvah that was found in the same area as Mary's Spring.
Sorry can't provide any more info or links as I'm on my Palm and off in search of cooler temps!!
It's ok. Sometimes I also get things confused in discussions. It sounds like on the talk show the person said that both Jews and Christians are concerned about the sites. Here, he connects the two- the feelings of both Jews and Christians. I'm glad to see he, a Jew, has some feelings for solidarity between Christians and Jews. Sure, it's good to preserve important historic sites, both those of Christians and Jews.

It's "cool" that you are writing on your Palm. :D I hope you had a good trip.

I sympathize with your (Sigh)ing here, because I feel that Minasolimon is making his criticisms too strongly. But on the other hand, I sympathize with him here too, because there are alot of Palestinians who must feeling frustration and helpless sighing, living in refugee camps while the village where they lived for thousands of years is overrun with development.

So while you naturally feel sighing, his words are also an expression of the spiritual sighing that this event causes. So hopefully by understanding this you and Mina can feel mutual sympathy with eachother here.

I see your comments arising from a good sympathy with Jewish people. This sympathy is a good one, because in Europe and America, Jews are a minority and have had discrimination in the past. It is good to have sympathy with people at some social disadvantage. In fact, it is this feeling of sympathy that I feel makes me care about the situation of the Holy Land's Palestinian Christians, who are a religious minority inside of a subordinated people.

You commented:
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(Sigh) This constant desire by some posters here to paint Israel (code word for "Jews") in the worst, most evil ways, making them the villains whenever possible, is one big reason I've held back from converting to EO.
(A) I disagree that Israel is a code word for "Jews", because most Jews live outside of Israel. A counterargument is that some anti-Jewish people may dislike Israel because it is a Jewish state. But even those wrong-headed people don't equate the two, they just connect them.
(B) You accusation doesn't apply to me, because in my Original Post, I included the statement: "Making our way back to central Jerusalem we tour one of Israel's most important sites, the haunting Holocaust memorial of Yad Vashem."
My quotation here was irrelevant to my original post. It does the opposite of portraying them "in the worst, most evil ways, making them the villains whenever possible", because it would have been easier to delete the quotation entirely, since it had nothing to do with my article. My quotation only shows that the Holocaust is part of Israel's heritage, which shows it as partly an innocent victim in one circumstance, rather than showing it in the worst most evil way.
(C) Maybe some posters here have the absolutist desire you described, but they appear to be in the minority.
(D) The Church of Jerusalem is composed about half with Jewish Orthodox Christians in Israel and another half with Palestinians, so a wide range of views about Israel should be possible in Orthodoxy.

You commented:
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I'm hoping this is primarily an "Internet Orthodox" thing and not part of mainstream Orthodoxy, but threads like this make me wonder.
I vaguely remember reading that Israel as a country has about a 60% popularity rating in America, and that it's somewhat similar in Russia. Orthodox are just a slice of the larger population. My impression is that most don't know about the situation of Palestinian Christians or that they even exist. Those who do know the situation are probably upset about their treatment by the Israeli government. Furthermore, I think that for democracy to work, people should make strong criticisms of bad government policies. And apparently our government's strong support has been partly responsible for Israeli actions, by indirect acquiescence.

Regarding your words about their "evil":
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"Perhaps they're not.  :)"
I feel it isn't my place to judge whether someone is "evil" or not. Israelis and their officials are the products of their social circumstances like other people. May God help us and them overcome our hard circumstances.

Take Care.


JamesRottnek,

I agree with you that:
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Israel seems to be giving Christians less and less reason to support them.  First Jerusalem demands that the Church of the Holy Sepulcher pays for water used decades ago...and now Israel is blatantly destroying Christian sites for no apparent reason.  If news outlets in the US bothered to mention it to anyone, Israel just might have to worry about Christian support over here - given that it makes up much of the support in the US and the US makes up much of Israel's international support.
Except that it did have an apparent reason: "building stores in its place."

One problem with the article in the OP is that it doesn't say what exactly the runs were that were destroyed on the site. On the other hand, one could say that if the Church finds them to be important, then the site shouldn't be destroyed. I think that these kinds of sites from the 1st-7th centuries AD are important for the experience of going on a pilgrimage there.

One response could be that stores are a valid thing to build. That's true, but from a practical standpoint, it seems like since tourism to the sites is important to the Tourism Ministry, it would also make more sense for the Tourism Ministry to preserve them.

The two events within the space a month diminish the logic for Christians to support the Israeli state.

Kind Regards.



deusveritasest,

I somewhat agree with you when you write:
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Most of the type who support the Zionist entity do not care about Eastern Christians in the first place. As a matter of fact, most of them mistake us for Muslims, or at least identify us as more similar to them.
However, I do think they have some care for the Eastern Christians, because they are still Christians, after all. Even David Young, who tries to convert Orthodox, seems to care about Eastern Christians' conditions. So care for eastern Christians runs deeper than is commonly expressed and engaged in.

I disagree with you when you write:
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If news outlets in the US bothered to mention it to anyone, Israel just might have to worry about Christian support over here - given that it makes up much of the support in the US and the US makes up much of Israel's international support.

No, not really.

I happen to take the view that Christians' political support has partly to do with political support independent of their religious doctrines.

For example, in northern states many Calvinists and evangelicals were strong abolitionists in the Civil War and used religious explanations, but in the South my impression is that more evangelicals were for a long time against desegregation than in the North. I think this is a weak example, but I think that if the media reported stories about adverse actions by Israel against Christians more often, then it would make evangelicals see Israel in a different way and effect their support, even if the evangelicals' doctrines remained.

I think you're right that "Perhaps they really are more evil than you would like to believe.", because I would like to believe that humanity is very good, but perhaps humans collectively are more evil than this. :(

Lord have mercy.



FatherHLL,

Your avatar's beard is long!

I agree with you that:
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Yes, "internet Orthodoxy" (or internet anything) is definitely a different beast from the thing as it exists in reality.   On the internet, you can speak without thinking, argue without seeing the other person's face or hearing their voice.   Also, there is a limited number of "voices" that certainly is not representative of the whole.
Except that there is some overlap between Orthodoxy and internet Orthodoxy, like there is, for example, between Orthodoxy and "Orthodoxy as described in modern books". Also, it seems unusual to speak without thinking on the web, but on the other hand, there's also alot of senseless spam on the internet.
There is even a "random sentence generator":
http://watchout4snakes.com/CreativityTools/RandomSentence/RandomSentence.aspx
Although perhaps the computer program is doing thinking when it creates the sentences.
As you say, some voices aren't representative of the whole, because for example, they may claim to be Orthodox, but aren't.

You asked about criticism of Israel on the forum:
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But in general, is it an anti-Israel thing or a love for longstanding things being removed? ...
Well, in a way criticism of Israel is "anti-Israel" because it's against Israel, but on the other hand, it could be "pro-Israel" if it directly or indirectly encourages Israel to act better. In my case, the source of the criticism isn't dislike of Israel as a state, but rather concern for Palestinians and what is commonly referred to as their human rights. This is also what motivates Minasolimon's criticisms, because he says his criticisms are out of a love of justice to help people regardless of their religion.

For example, if we criticize the separate system of the US South of the 1950's, it doesn't seem like it's out of dislike for white Americans, which would be us, or even out of dislike for southerners, who are white Americans, but out of love for black people as people and love for justice that helps them.

I agree with you that, objectively speaking:
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If the palestinians or Jordanians were doing it, there would still be the same concern. I think you are interpreting something that is not there
However, I feel that I personally have more concern when the Israelis do it, because my country funds and backs them so much, which makes me feel indirectly responsible.

I think she is misinterpreting that the source of my displeasure may be that in her mind I simply dislike the existence of the state of Israel. But I am OK with Israel's existence, because it was recognized and created by the United Nations, an international tribunal. It is like Ireland and Northern Ireland, where there is a religious conflict. I accept both countries' existence, although ideally I think they should get along and be united as one land.

Also, I agree with you that here:
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people just want governments to stop destroying Orthodox things.   Some may be anti-Israel, but considering that there are both Israeli and Palestinian Christians, when either side is unfavorable to Christianity it is natural to be upset.

For example, it makes sense that whether someone thinks the Soviet Union was a good system, they could still disagree with Stalin's destruction of a few of the beautiful churches there, at least out of caring for people's culture and heritage.

I agree with you that:
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being against unjust actions from any government does not equate to being "anti-Israeli" when it is Israel doing the action.  If they are removing other longstanding archaeological artifacts, this is also upsetting.
For example, it is misleading to say that if someone disagrees with some US actions and policies that they are "anti-American", because they can still want America as a society to do well. I would prefer Israel as a society to do well, and I think allowing integration helps a society to do better, because it creates more equality and togetherness between people.

I sympathize with your statement:
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Likewise, being against the actions of Israel on some points certainly does not make one anti-semitic.
Although I think it could happen that a racist person had a bad racist position on an action of Israel on some points, like having a Holocaust memorial. I just think this would be ridiculous and it would be obvious based on the person's exact statements that their position, and they, were anti-semitic.

And you are right when you say:
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They shouldn't be destroying Jewish or Christian artifacts.  
They are both parts of religious heritage in the Holy Land, and on principle a government should respect religions' artifacts.

When you say:
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to say that "Israel" is a codeword for "Jews" is not a just accusation.
What I think you mean is that it's not just an accusation, it's also irrational statement.

I agree with you that:
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to say that "Israel" is a codeword for "Jews" is not a just accusation.   That is like saying that "England" is a codeword for Anglicans, "Italy" is a codeword for Roman Catholics, and "Bulgaria" is a codeword for Orthodox.   There are many many Israeli citizens who are Orthodox Christians, so no one is going to use "Israel" as a codeword for "Jews."
Except some people may not know that it includes non-Jews, which would be an easy mistake if they knew little about its society. So a better explanation is what you said halfway through: Just as most Roman Catholics don't live in Italy, most Jews don't live in Israel.

You asked:
Quote
Perhaps they're not.
(to this post and the previous to which it was a response).  
Is it possible that at this point some are talking past each other?  
 
That appears to be the case, because Deus V.E. proposed an idea in just one sentence, and Theistgal responded by simply proposing the opposite idea in just one sentence.

You asked:
Quote
It seems although both are using the term "Israel" that some are talking about the government of Israel and its policies and others are talking about the people of Israel?
Hmmm...
Theistgal was referring to her earlier statement about: "Israel (code word for "Jews")"
So it appears she is actually talking about the Jewish people, and her apparent misunderstanding is that in this conversation, "Israel" is simply being used as a reference to the Jewish people.

It must sound like a strange idea to you, because above you only mention Israel's government and it's people. However, there is a claim made by some state-Zionists that Israel's government actually does represent Jews everywhere. Her misunderstanding reflects this idea, which I think is a misrepresentation, because many, if not most, American and European Jews (a) don't feel this way, (b) take some positions opposite to those of the Israeli government or society, like on religious affairs and the Iraq war, and (c) don't have Israeli citizenship.

On the other hand, it isn't clear if T.G. and/or D.V.E. think in this way, if they think we are confused along these lines. However, it does appear that their exchange had this confusion.

Father Bless.



Orthodox11,

I'm glad to hear: "I know many wonderful Israelis".

It's interesting for me, and I'm curious to hear about them. Like what are their views about the conflict, what it's like for them to live in the Holy Land, what it's like for them with Palestinians and Israeli and Palestinian Christians.

Health and Happiness to you.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 12:25:34 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline GreekChef

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2011, 11:27:45 AM »
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However, Christianity teaches us to take care of the poor, the oppressed, the widow, the orphan, the sick, the needy. In the Israel-Palestine conflict, these are the Palestinians. I know many wonderful Israelis, and many more wonderful Jews, but the State of Israel is a brutal, oppressive and ruthless reigeme. When that changes, so will my anti-Zionism.


Agreed here too!  I have a friend who lives in Palestine, an Orthodox Christian.  The way the Palestinians are treated is totally unacceptable, as far as I'm concerned.  I cringe every time I hear that the US is continuing to support Israel no matter what it does.  
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 11:28:56 AM by GreekChef »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2011, 03:50:53 PM »
The latest round of gratuitous Jew bashing has been moved to Non-Religious Topics.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,37755.0.html
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011, 03:55:10 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Xenia1918

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2011, 12:06:12 AM »
Quote
However, Christianity teaches us to take care of the poor, the oppressed, the widow, the orphan, the sick, the needy. In the Israel-Palestine conflict, these are the Palestinians. I know many wonderful Israelis, and many more wonderful Jews, but the State of Israel is a brutal, oppressive and ruthless reigeme. When that changes, so will my anti-Zionism.


Agreed here too!  I have a friend who lives in Palestine, an Orthodox Christian.  The way the Palestinians are treated is totally unacceptable, as far as I'm concerned.  I cringe every time I hear that the US is continuing to support Israel no matter what it does.  


I live in a community that has a lot of expatriate Israelis, and they speak arrogantly of the zionist government having America "in its pocket".
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Offline celticfan1888

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Re: Orthodox Site Destroyed in Jerusalem
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2011, 05:52:09 PM »
Refering to the Protocols Of the Elders of Zion, Ivan Fraser (a man of Jewish ethnicity, who's also an atheist, and therefore has no "anti-semitic" reason to critique this book) says this:

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/proof.htm

Quote
"Despite a general misconception amongst certain politically-aligned groups and ill-informed individuals - including Jews and non-Jews alike - that the Protocols are a "proven fraud", this is not the case, as I will show.

The cry of "anti-Semitic" is a standard one and almost automatic from ill-informed, if often well-intentioned individuals who have little background knowledge of the vast history and consciousness of the perpetrators of the "world revolution". The majority of people remain drastically unaware of the conspiracy because a vital aspect of the conspiracy is to hide itself behind many walls of secrecy, as the following information will show. Those that would call "anti-semitism", or say "there is no conspiracy", are amongst the greatest victims of the very conspiracy they vehemently deny.

You need to follow ALL of the rules of the forum, including how much you post from a source:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30655.0.html

- Serb1389. General Fora Moderator. 


« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 10:13:32 PM by serb1389 »
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