OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 19, 2014, 08:21:50 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: St. Patrick  (Read 1493 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,118


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« on: August 25, 2010, 03:06:05 AM »

Hi again everyone.  This question is much less likely to lead to a debate than my last one.  Does the Oriental Orthodox Church consider St. Patrick to be a saint?  I only ask because many scholars today (from what I've read) accept that he died around 460, which is almost a decade after the end of the Council of Chalcedon.  If the Church does consider him a saint (and doesn't have a date before the Council as his death), at what point in history does the Oriental Orthodox Church stop considering saints of the Eastern Orthodox Church to be saints - or alternatively, am I completely misunderstanding something about exactly when the division of the EO and OO Churches became more solid?
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,645



WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2010, 11:05:46 AM »

The division didn't finally become solid until the 560's.

The knowledge of what was happening in the East was extremely poor in the West. At the time of the Three Chapters controversy and for hundreds of years afterwards the Western bishops didn't actually know what it was all about and just thought that in some way Chalcedon was being attacked. Likewise they pretty much only assumed that Chalcedon was defending the humanity of Christ and then anyone objecting must be in error.

We know that for centuries after Chalcedon pilgrims from Britain were visiting the shrine of St Mina.

It is anachronistic to expect a bishop in northern Britain, for instance, to have a detailed knowledge of the controversies dividing the East and making a firm decision to support one group or the other. Bishops would confess that Christ was God and man, but beyond that they would have no idea whether they should supporting or opposing St Severus, for example, whom they would not have heard of.

When St Columbanus wrote to Pope Vigilius condeming him for accepting Constantinople 553 it is clear that he had got the wrong end of the stick. But most bishops in the West had opposed Pope Pelagius and broke communion with him because they also had a different and partial idea of what was happening in the East.

In any case, I think that a Western saint needs to be considered on the basis of his own life and the actual faith he confessed rather than the notional communion he belonged to. Many of the Eastern churches didn't make immediate decisions about Nicaea for instance. Does this mean they rejected Nicaea, or were non-Nicene Christians, or just were not in a position to make a proper decision about it until much later.

Father Peter
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,636



« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2010, 11:16:05 AM »

The division didn't finally become solid until the 560's.

The knowledge of what was happening in the East was extremely poor in the West. At the time of the Three Chapters controversy and for hundreds of years afterwards the Western bishops didn't actually know what it was all about and just thought that in some way Chalcedon was being attacked. Likewise they pretty much only assumed that Chalcedon was defending the humanity of Christ and then anyone objecting must be in error.

We know that for centuries after Chalcedon pilgrims from Britain were visiting the shrine of St Mina.

It is anachronistic to expect a bishop in northern Britain, for instance, to have a detailed knowledge of the controversies dividing the East and making a firm decision to support one group or the other. Bishops would confess that Christ was God and man, but beyond that they would have no idea whether they should supporting or opposing St Severus, for example, whom they would not have heard of.

When St Columbanus wrote to Pope Vigilius condeming him for accepting Constantinople 553 it is clear that he had got the wrong end of the stick. But most bishops in the West had opposed Pope Pelagius and broke communion with him because they also had a different and partial idea of what was happening in the East.

In any case, I think that a Western saint needs to be considered on the basis of his own life and the actual faith he confessed rather than the notional communion he belonged to. Many of the Eastern churches didn't make immediate decisions about Nicaea for instance. Does this mean they rejected Nicaea, or were non-Nicene Christians, or just were not in a position to make a proper decision about it until much later.
Like the issue of Patriarch St. Meletius of Antioch, excommunicated by Rome and Alexandria on the basis of Nicea I but who opened Constantinople I.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Aidan
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 126



« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2010, 12:54:31 PM »

Fr Peter

The British Isles were rich in saints during the so called Dark Ages. The Greeks and the Russians had saints galore throughout their histories right up to the present, as did the other Chalcedonian churches. I get the feeling (please prove me wrong) that the Coptic church in particular was moribund, both in its saints and in its theology from the Muslim invasion until Pope Kyrillos' time.

It wont do to blame the Muslims otherwise would expect the same dearth of saints under the Turkish or Soviet yoke among the Russians or Greeks.
Logged
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2010, 05:48:03 PM »

Fr Peter

The British Isles were rich in saints during the so called Dark Ages. The Greeks and the Russians had saints galore throughout their histories right up to the present, as did the other Chalcedonian churches. I get the feeling (please prove me wrong) that the Coptic church in particular was moribund, both in its saints and in its theology from the Muslim invasion until Pope Kyrillos' time.

It wont do to blame the Muslims otherwise would expect the same dearth of saints under the Turkish or Soviet yoke among the Russians or Greeks.

Fr. Tadros Malaty recently published a work (the title of which escapes me at the moment) which gives a general overview of Coptic Fathers and Saints, and the theological and spiritual works and treatises composed by them, from the 6th century till the present. It makes clear that the Church was not in any sense "moribund" in this period. Many of the prominent names of this period remain familiar to today's Egyptian Copts though they seem foreign to most Copts of the diaspora.
Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,118


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2010, 06:08:09 PM »

The division didn't finally become solid until the 560's.

The knowledge of what was happening in the East was extremely poor in the West. At the time of the Three Chapters controversy and for hundreds of years afterwards the Western bishops didn't actually know what it was all about and just thought that in some way Chalcedon was being attacked. Likewise they pretty much only assumed that Chalcedon was defending the humanity of Christ and then anyone objecting must be in error.

We know that for centuries after Chalcedon pilgrims from Britain were visiting the shrine of St Mina.

It is anachronistic to expect a bishop in northern Britain, for instance, to have a detailed knowledge of the controversies dividing the East and making a firm decision to support one group or the other. Bishops would confess that Christ was God and man, but beyond that they would have no idea whether they should supporting or opposing St Severus, for example, whom they would not have heard of.

When St Columbanus wrote to Pope Vigilius condeming him for accepting Constantinople 553 it is clear that he had got the wrong end of the stick. But most bishops in the West had opposed Pope Pelagius and broke communion with him because they also had a different and partial idea of what was happening in the East.

In any case, I think that a Western saint needs to be considered on the basis of his own life and the actual faith he confessed rather than the notional communion he belonged to. Many of the Eastern churches didn't make immediate decisions about Nicaea for instance. Does this mean they rejected Nicaea, or were non-Nicene Christians, or just were not in a position to make a proper decision about it until much later.

Father Peter

So in other words, for at least a hundred years or so after Chalcedon, most Western saints of the EO and RC Churches are also saints of the OO Church?  I suppose that I often look back on history forgetting that communication and travel took quite a while compared to today, not to mention that Gutenburg's printing press wasn't around until the middle of the fifteenth century.

Thanks
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,645



WWW
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2010, 06:19:06 PM »

For 100 years after Chalcedon there wasn't an OO and an EO Church. There was the Imperial Church and a great deal of tension and agitation over which direction it would lean, with the Emperor, usually disastrously, intervening as he chose. The OO tried hard to NOT become a Communion in Resistance, and continued to respect the Emperor, even when he was torturing and killing them. But in the end it became necessary for a parallel communion to become established, though this was 100 years after Chalcedon.

Father Peter
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2010, 08:50:54 PM »

While I think it is reasonable to question the Sainthood of those around the time of Columbanus and after because of their defense of the Three Chapters, it is highly unlikely that Patrick really knew anything about the Council of Chalcedon or had such an active communion with Rome that it would be relevant within a 9 year period. So I don't have a problem with referring to him as a Saint.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,421


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2010, 09:20:14 PM »

Fr Peter

The British Isles were rich in saints during the so called Dark Ages. The Greeks and the Russians had saints galore throughout their histories right up to the present, as did the other Chalcedonian churches. I get the feeling (please prove me wrong) that the Coptic church in particular was moribund, both in its saints and in its theology from the Muslim invasion until Pope Kyrillos' time.

It wont do to blame the Muslims otherwise would expect the same dearth of saints under the Turkish or Soviet yoke among the Russians or Greeks.

Fr. Tadros Malaty recently published a work (the title of which escapes me at the moment) which gives a general overview of Coptic Fathers and Saints, and the theological and spiritual works and treatises composed by them, from the 6th century till the present. It makes clear that the Church was not in any sense "moribund" in this period. Many of the prominent names of this period remain familiar to today's Egyptian Copts though they seem foreign to most Copts of the diaspora.

Please, when you do find out the title, let us know.

Thank you.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2010, 09:23:34 PM »


"The Egyptian Desert in the Irish Bogs:
The Byzantine Character of Early Celtic Monasticism"


by Rev.Gregory Telepneff
(Center for Traditional Orthodox Studies,Etna, California)
1998/ISBN 0-911165-37-1)

This book makes the case very convincingly that Coptic Orthodox monasticism
and liturgy in Gaul, Ireland and northern Britain was the most important
Christianising force in those areas.

Early missionaries from the Eastern Patriarchates were even more numerous
and went even more far afield than we have hitherto known.

'Light and Life Publishing'
  http://www.light-n-life.com


-oOo-

Father Peter,  Have you reviewed this book?  It would be wonderful to see your opinion.  I remember that Metropolitan Seraphim of the British Orthodox Church once wrote something about the seven Coptic monks who came to Ireland.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2010, 09:28:42 PM »


"On the Trail of the Seven Monks of Egypt"
-------------------------------------------



Metropolitan Seraphim of the British Orthodox Church,
the British Diocese of the Coptic Patriarchate


The Coptic Orthodox Church has long known of the historic links between
the British Isles and Christian Egypt, but documentation and solid
evidence is thin on the ground for these early centuries of church
history. There are learned articles by Monique Blanc-Ortolan of the
Musee des Arts dE9coratifs, Paris, and Pierre du Bourguet of the Louvre
on 'Coptic and Irish Art' and by Joseph F.T. Kelly of John Carroll
University, Cleveland, Ohio, on 'Coptic Influences in the British Isles'
in the Coptic Encyclopedia which are worth consulting. Other works, like
Shirley Toulson's The Celtic Year, which asserts that "rather than
adhere to the ruling of the Council [of Chalcedon], some of the most
dedicated adherents of Monophysitism fled from Egypt, and some of them
most surely travelled west and north to Ireland", in their enthusiasm to
establish a link, make up what is lacking in hard evidence with sheer
conjecture and fantasy.

The late Archdale King noted the links between Celtic Ireland and Coptic
Egypt. He suggests that much of the contact took place before the Muslim
Conquest of 640. There exists evidence of a Mediterranean trade in a
single passage in the life of St. John the Almsgiver (Ioannes III
Eleemon), Greek Patriarch of Alexandria between 610-621, in which
reference is made to a vessel sailing to Alexandria from Britain with a
cargo of tin, doubtless come from Cornwall or Somerset.

King observes that the kind of asceticism associated with the Desert
Fathers was especially congenial to the Irish but refers to Dom Henri
Leclercq's suggestion that Celtic monasticism was directly derived from
Egypt, as an "unsubstantiated hypothesis". No serious historian,
however, would deny that first-hand knowledge of the Desert Fathers was
brought directly to the South of Gaul by St. John Cassian and that the
links between the British and Gallican churches were especially strong
at this period. King nevertheless admits that the grouping together of
several small churches within a cashel or fortified enclosure seems to
support Leclercq's view.

King mentions an Ogham inscription on a stone near St. Olan's Well in
the parish of Aghabulloge, County Cork, which scholars interpret as
reading: 'Pray for Olan the Egyptian.' Professor Stokes tells us5 about
the Irish monk Dicuil, who around 825 wrote his Liber de Mensure orbis
terre describing the pyramids as well as an ancient precursor of the
Suez Canal. It would seem that Egypt was often visited by pilgrims to
the Holy Land. Stokes instances the Saltair Na Rann, an anthology of
biblical poems attributed to Oengus the Culdee, but containing the sixth
or seventh century Book of Adam and Eve, composed in Egypt and known in
no other European country except Ireland.

King also notes that one of the commonest names for townlands or
parishes is Disert or 'Desert': a solitary place in which anchorites
were established. Presumably the same etymology gives us the Scottish
Dysart, just north of Kirkcaldy, and the Welsh Dyserth, to the south of
Prestatyn ? This would then present a consistent picture common to
Celtic Christianity. The Martyrology of Oengus the Culdee, an early
ninth century monastic bishop of Clonenagh (Co. Offaly) and later of
Tallaght, has a litany invoking 'Seven monks of Egypt in Disert Uilaig,
I invoke unto my aid, through Jesus Christ.' [Morfesseor do manchaib
Egipr(e) in disiurt Uilaig]. The Antiphonary of Bangor (dating from
between 680-691) also contains the text:

" ... Domus deliciis plena Super petram constructa Necnon vinea vera Ex
Aegypto transducta ..."

which is translated as:

" ... House full of delight Built on the rock And indeed true vine
Translanted from Egypt ..."

Providence undoubtedly put me in touch with Fr. Feargal Patrick McGrady,
priest of Ballymena, County Antrim in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Down
and Connor. As well as being a native of Downpatrick (the burial place
of St. Patrick), Father Feargal is enthusiastic about the Eastern
churches and holds His Holiness Pope Shenouda in high esteem. He was
delighted to assist with my enquiries and very soon made contacts with
local historians, who are the real source of the information we need.

Dr. Cahal Dallat, Genealogist and Historical Consultant, of Ballycastle,
County Antrim, identified Disert Ilidh or Uilaigh with Dundesert, near
Crumlin, county Antrim, which is to the north-west of Belfast, the
capital of Northern Ireland, between Belfast International Airport and
Templepatrick.

Mr. Bobbie Burns, a local historian living in Crumlin, was another link
in the chain. He produced a report in the Belfast Telegraph of 13th July
1936 under the headline "Unique Once Famous Ulster Church: Neglected
Crumlin Ruins", which showed the ruins of the medieval church built on
the site of an earlier shrine. The local historical group is taking a
renewed interest in the site and the local Protestant landowner has
given permission for them to come and go freely to the site. It is hoped
that they might obtain a grant to restore the dilapidated ruins but they
are excited by its more ancient and possible Coptic connections. The
site is approached by a path along the side of a grazing field 200-300
metres from Poplar Road. It is on the steep bank of the Crumlin River,
which is a large free-flowing river, but is more than 100 metres from
the water. Access is easy in dry weather, but not pleasant after heavy
rain. The terrain inside the enclosure is very rough. The ground is
strewn with boulders which have either fallen or been removed from the
medieval walls. Parts of the medieval walls, in places three feet thick
and covered in ivy, survive on the east (or gable) and south sides. The
east wall contains two arched recesses or sedilia, now only about four
feet in height but probably much higher if their foundations were
cleared of the extensive in-fill of stones and earth. The gable rises to
around thirty feet in height but a number of stones have already been
removed and were any more to go it would be undermined and likely to
collapse. What remains of the wall at the other end is much lower. It is
likely that the whole structure would have been removed long ago but for
the difficulties of dislodging stone from the walls and the problem of
transportation to the road.

We are grateful for the efforts of these local enthusiasts for having
preserved these ancient ruins and look forward to making further
discoveries about the last resting place of the seven monks of Egypt.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-archive/message/1681
Logged
Aidan
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 126



« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2010, 04:36:12 AM »


'Fr. Tadros Malaty recently published a work (the title of which escapes me at the moment) which gives a general overview of Coptic Fathers and Saints, and the theological and spiritual works and treatises composed by them, from the 6th century till the present. It makes clear that the Church was not in any sense "moribund" in this period. Many of the prominent names of this period remain familiar to today's Egyptian Copts though they seem foreign to most Copts of the diaspora.'

First pardon my technological ignorance/incompetence; I can't insert the above quote from Ekhristos Anesti correctly but I think the book he is talking about is called Introduction to the Coptic Orthodox Church by Fr Tadros Malaty and it can be downloaded-all 358 pages!
Logged
Anastasia1
My warrior name is Beyoncé Pad Thai
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Occasionally traveling, Armenian.
Posts: 1,186



« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2010, 06:20:00 AM »

So this begs the question of do the Orthodox celebrate St. Patty's Day, and if so, then how? What color do you wear if you are not the Orange or the Green?
Logged

Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2010, 06:49:22 AM »


So this begs the question of do the Orthodox celebrate St. Patty's Day, and if so, then how?


One of the Orthodox families certainly celebrates him.  See the attachment.
Logged
Aidan
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 126



« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2010, 07:32:27 AM »


So this begs the question of do the Orthodox celebrate St. Patty's Day, and if so, then how?


One of the Orthodox families certainly celebrates him.  See the attachment.

Should that be St Paddy's day?
Logged
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,646


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2010, 11:46:41 PM »

I saw this and I have to link it:
Quote
Egyptian papyrus found in ancient Irish bog   
                   
By   AFP   September 7, 2010, 11:08 am
DUBLIN: Irish scientists have found fragments of Egyptian papyrus in the leather cover of an ancient book of psalms that was unearthed from a peat bog, Ireland's National Museum said on Monday.

The papyrus in the lining of the Egyptian-style leather cover of the 1,200-year-old manuscript, "potentially represents the first tangible connection between early Irish Christianity and the Middle Eastern Coptic Church", the Museum said.


You can read the rest here:

http://www.thedailynewsegypt.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=122844&catid=1&Itemid=183
Logged

Aidan
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 126



« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2010, 03:45:53 AM »

I saw this and I have to link it:
Quote
Egyptian papyrus found in ancient Irish bog   
                   
By   AFP   September 7, 2010, 11:08 am
DUBLIN: Irish scientists have found fragments of Egyptian papyrus in the leather cover of an ancient book of psalms that was unearthed from a peat bog, Ireland's National Museum said on Monday.

The papyrus in the lining of the Egyptian-style leather cover of the 1,200-year-old manuscript, "potentially represents the first tangible connection between early Irish Christianity and the Middle Eastern Coptic Church", the Museum said.
Fascinating! Do you think there might also be an Ethiopian connection seeing that it was found in Birr?
Logged
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2010, 04:19:19 AM »

So this begs the question of do the Orthodox celebrate St. Patty's Day, and if so, then how? What color do you wear if you are not the Orange or the Green?

Well, it must be pointed out that it would appear that the veneration of Saint Patrick is much more solidly established among the Chalcedonians than among the OO (save the BOC).
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Tags: Celtic saints Coptic Orthodox Church 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.09 seconds with 45 queries.