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Author Topic: A difficult but honest choice: I have become a Catholic  (Read 13424 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mexican
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« on: August 24, 2010, 06:01:10 PM »

Hello

I have not posted this at the Orthodox boards in Spanish, feearing a bad reaction from my Orthodox brothers, and given the fact that I was one of the most outspoken in his support of Orthodoxy and his disdain toward the Roman Catholic Church. I myself encouraged many Catholics to break with the Roman Church and embrace Orthodoxy.

My views about the Roman Church changed a few years ago, when I attended Vespers at the Latin Church (celebrated by priests of the SSPX). Before that moment, and myself coming from a Latin American country, I saw the Roman Church as another guitar-playing Protestant denomination which had repudiated the Apostolic tradition.

I went to some bible talks with them, I read about the Church and I started to feel that the Catholic Church had clearer answers concerning the state of the soul after death, the final judgement and other topics I found hard to understand from an Orthodox point of view. I sincerely thought about embracing Catholicism but I delayed my decission, I left for Europe and then bad moments came in my life so I ceased to study religion and became worried about my problems. In Europe I had contact with Orthodox Christians and I felt it was better to support the Orthodox since (unlike the Catholic Church) the Orthodox Churches have no problems with liturgy, faith, tradition, corruption, and so on. I thought the Roman Church could not be the true Church because of so many problems they have, and because of their protestantization.

However, now that I went to France I took the time to visit churches, I went to the Armenian Catholic Church, the Melkite Church (of St. Julien Le Pauvre) and the SSPX Church. I saw how devote their lives are, how they truly live Christianity. Back in my country I had more talks with SSPX priests. I thought I could do a better work by supporting Orthodoxy and at the same time support Ecumenism with the Catholic Church but these priests explained to me that this is not a true way of supporting unity. I also had the idea that the RC had a mechanical view of the Apostolic succession and that it viewed Orthodox Churches as being equal to the Catholic Churches but this is not true. I have read quotes from the Fathers and from Popes and theologians. They explained to me that while they might have valid sacraments and valid priests, the authority of Christ is missing, there's no apostolic mission outside the Catholic Church, and it is still debatable if such bishops posess jurisdiction (some say that for reasons of charity, the Catholic Church still regards Orthodox bishops as having jurisdiction but in general terms this is not the case). The mysteries outside the Church confer grace and benefit for salvation for those who receive them in invincible ignorance or extreme necessity but not in the case of those who already know that these sacraments and bishops are outside the Church. I remember that the Armenian priest (who also says the Latin Mass in France) asking me why I did not join the Catholic Church if I thought it was the True Church.

It is pride what did not allow me to do so. Not the kind of pride of those Orthodox who say the Pope is the antichrist and who are extremely anti-Roman but the pride of those who want to be seen as different from others and as being better. I didn't want to accept I was wrong and these are hard times for me. I know that the local Orthodox (many of whom are former Catholics who joined the Orthodox Church for illegitimate reasons such as the way the mass is celebrated by the modern RC) will see me as a traitor and as a bad person. Maybe they will break contact with me and my family but this is the honest thing I can do: to embrace the Church of Christ.

The Roman Church is attacked because it is hated by the world. Anti-Roman hatred is filled with the spirit of Protestantism and I am strongly Anti-Protestant. As a Mexican Nationalist, I also want to become a full son of my nation and a true son of those who conquered this land for Christ destroying the false evil gods that were once worshipped. I am now also sharing the same faith of the defenders of my country who were hanged or killed in 1847 in New Mexico by the Protestant occupiers, and the same faith of the Cristeros who fought the Communists in the 1930's.

I am already aware of the dangers of Ecumenism and Liberalism. I am all for Tradition. I do not support the "Society of St. Josaphat" and those who are not respectful of the Eastern tradition.

I don't believe I am myself leaving Orthodoxy but simply becoming fully Orthodox. It was very easy to be Orthodox and be a member of a Church that does not have problems. Being Catholic is more much difficult since it's hard to find a church and priest having the faith. I am not repudiating the Eastern tradition. I will try to attend the Eastern liturgy (in my country it is very difficult to do so. There was an American priest celebrating the liturgy in Greek in the Diocese of Puebla, and a Melkite Church but the Melkites are latinized and modernized here). However, I have learnt to love and appreciate the Latin tradition.

I made a profession of faith "ad cautelam" before the SSPX priests in case I had incurred in any censure because of my actions (no Baptism or Confirmation was required). I am not obliged to recite the filioque if I don't want to, eventhough I believe St. Thomas Aquinas to be right about the filioque. I have met a Traditional priest who's not a member of the SSPX (he's in good staiding with the Vatican) who'se offering the traditional mass in a holy way and everything happened at my birthplace. I am receiving many graces.

I am sorry if these words offended or surprised others who have always seen me as a devote and loyal supporter of Orthodoxy.

I offer you my sincere friendship and prayers.
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2010, 06:08:15 PM »

God bless you, you have to do what you believe is right.

My only caution is your involvement with the SSPX - you are aware they're not fully in communion with Rome? Not meaning to disparage them, just a caution.

Anyway, hope Christ will bless you in your search for Him.
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2010, 06:42:22 PM »

Your post is confusing. The Mexican national heroes were not schismastics, were they, so how are you of the same faith?
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2010, 06:45:26 PM »

Dear Mexican,

Welcome home.  It seems you've been searching for a long time, so I pray that your journey continue in peace with many more graces to come. 

We can hope that Orthodoxy has a friend in you for life and life everlasting.  It is such a blessing that you do not leave Orthodoxy in anger, nor look back on her with anything but loving kindness.

Many blessings, in Christ

Mary

Hello

I have not posted this at the Orthodox boards in Spanish, feearing a bad reaction from my Orthodox brothers, and given the fact that I was one of the most outspoken in his support of Orthodoxy and his disdain toward the Roman Catholic Church. I myself encouraged many Catholics to break with the Roman Church and embrace Orthodoxy.

My views about the Roman Church changed a few years ago, when I attended Vespers at the Latin Church (celebrated by priests of the SSPX). Before that moment, and myself coming from a Latin American country, I saw the Roman Church as another guitar-playing Protestant denomination which had repudiated the Apostolic tradition.

I went to some bible talks with them, I read about the Church and I started to feel that the Catholic Church had clearer answers concerning the state of the soul after death, the final judgement and other topics I found hard to understand from an Orthodox point of view. I sincerely thought about embracing Catholicism but I delayed my decission, I left for Europe and then bad moments came in my life so I ceased to study religion and became worried about my problems. In Europe I had contact with Orthodox Christians and I felt it was better to support the Orthodox since (unlike the Catholic Church) the Orthodox Churches have no problems with liturgy, faith, tradition, corruption, and so on. I thought the Roman Church could not be the true Church because of so many problems they have, and because of their protestantization.

However, now that I went to France I took the time to visit churches, I went to the Armenian Catholic Church, the Melkite Church (of St. Julien Le Pauvre) and the SSPX Church. I saw how devote their lives are, how they truly live Christianity. Back in my country I had more talks with SSPX priests. I thought I could do a better work by supporting Orthodoxy and at the same time support Ecumenism with the Catholic Church but these priests explained to me that this is not a true way of supporting unity. I also had the idea that the RC had a mechanical view of the Apostolic succession and that it viewed Orthodox Churches as being equal to the Catholic Churches but this is not true. I have read quotes from the Fathers and from Popes and theologians. They explained to me that while they might have valid sacraments and valid priests, the authority of Christ is missing, there's no apostolic mission outside the Catholic Church, and it is still debatable if such bishops posess jurisdiction (some say that for reasons of charity, the Catholic Church still regards Orthodox bishops as having jurisdiction but in general terms this is not the case). The mysteries outside the Church confer grace and benefit for salvation for those who receive them in invincible ignorance or extreme necessity but not in the case of those who already know that these sacraments and bishops are outside the Church. I remember that the Armenian priest (who also says the Latin Mass in France) asking me why I did not join the Catholic Church if I thought it was the True Church.

It is pride what did not allow me to do so. Not the kind of pride of those Orthodox who say the Pope is the antichrist and who are extremely anti-Roman but the pride of those who want to be seen as different from others and as being better. I didn't want to accept I was wrong and these are hard times for me. I know that the local Orthodox (many of whom are former Catholics who joined the Orthodox Church for illegitimate reasons such as the way the mass is celebrated by the modern RC) will see me as a traitor and as a bad person. Maybe they will break contact with me and my family but this is the honest thing I can do: to embrace the Church of Christ.

The Roman Church is attacked because it is hated by the world. Anti-Roman hatred is filled with the spirit of Protestantism and I am strongly Anti-Protestant. As a Mexican Nationalist, I also want to become a full son of my nation and a true son of those who conquered this land for Christ destroying the false evil gods that were once worshipped. I am now also sharing the same faith of the defenders of my country who were hanged or killed in 1847 in New Mexico by the Protestant occupiers, and the same faith of the Cristeros who fought the Communists in the 1930's.

I am already aware of the dangers of Ecumenism and Liberalism. I am all for Tradition. I do not support the "Society of St. Josaphat" and those who are not respectful of the Eastern tradition.

I don't believe I am myself leaving Orthodoxy but simply becoming fully Orthodox. It was very easy to be Orthodox and be a member of a Church that does not have problems. Being Catholic is more much difficult since it's hard to find a church and priest having the faith. I am not repudiating the Eastern tradition. I will try to attend the Eastern liturgy (in my country it is very difficult to do so. There was an American priest celebrating the liturgy in Greek in the Diocese of Puebla, and a Melkite Church but the Melkites are latinized and modernized here). However, I have learnt to love and appreciate the Latin tradition.

I made a profession of faith "ad cautelam" before the SSPX priests in case I had incurred in any censure because of my actions (no Baptism or Confirmation was required). I am not obliged to recite the filioque if I don't want to, eventhough I believe St. Thomas Aquinas to be right about the filioque. I have met a Traditional priest who's not a member of the SSPX (he's in good staiding with the Vatican) who'se offering the traditional mass in a holy way and everything happened at my birthplace. I am receiving many graces.

I am sorry if these words offended or surprised others who have always seen me as a devote and loyal supporter of Orthodoxy.

I offer you my sincere friendship and prayers.
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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2010, 07:16:00 PM »

I think anytime one converts it is a humbling experience. Whenever I converted to Catholicism from Protestant Christianity, I had to swallow my pride and admit that the first 18 years of my life I had embraced error. It didn't bother me though because I was overjoyed by what I had found in the Catholic Church. Welcome home, indeed, and may God bless you on your journey.
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2010, 07:29:11 PM »

It was very easy to be Orthodox and be a member of a Church that does not have problems.
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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2010, 07:46:20 PM »

It's too bad that the EO and RC Churches are split apart.
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« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2010, 08:20:27 PM »

pensateomnia, yes, I believe most Mexicans (heroes ot otherwise) are "schismatics" (aka RC's) as that has been the primary religion there since the days of Bl. Juan Diego.
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« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2010, 08:22:35 PM »

I don't want some of my words to be misunderstood.

I didn't mean to say that Orthodoxy was "an easy religion". What I meant is that as an Orthodox Christian, you won't find a patriarch or bishop or priest somewhere celebrating sacrilegous liturgies or promoting idolatry or preaching liberalism, you won't find gross scandals of corruption and inmoral life, you will not be forced to ressist the hierarchy as Catholics have been forced to do since Vatican II.

The Spanish conquerors of Mexico, as well as the defenders of new Mexico in 1846-47 as well as the Cristero martyrs were Catholic. Now I profess the same faith they professed.
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2010, 09:09:00 PM »

As a Mexican Nationalist, I also want to become a full son of my nation and a true son of those who conquered this land for Christ destroying the false evil gods that were once worshipped.

The Spanish conquerors of Mexico, as well as the defenders of new Mexico in 1846-47 as well as the Cristero martyrs were Catholic. Now I profess the same faith they professed.

I wonder if this is your primary motivation.
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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2010, 09:47:09 PM »

May you find peace in what you are searching for ...
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2010, 10:21:41 PM »

Alright, I'm going to rain on the parade here (which should be expected, given that this is an Orthodox Christian forum, and this is a born Orthodox talking about leaving the Orthodox Church).

Mexican, you have left the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. You are in schism and heresy, and you have placed your soul in eternal jeopardy. I admonish you in the name of Jesus Christ to repent of this great error, humble yourself, and repent!

Since one of your points of confusion is on the state of souls after death, may St. Mark of Ephesus intercede for you!
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2010, 10:29:56 PM »

After The Honeymoon is over ,He May Come Back........... Grin Or Boredom might bring him back....I watched a Latin mass ,never been so bored in my life ...one the clergy sit alot to the side ,when they are at the altar they don't turn around but stand like little stiff soilders and maybe  turn once or twice for censing the people and  for benediction...too regimented and boring..... Grin
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2010, 10:42:01 PM »

I went to some bible talks with them, I read about the Church and I started to feel that the Catholic Church had clearer answers concerning the state of the soul after death, the final judgement and other topics I found hard to understand from an Orthodox point of view.


Catholicism, unlike Orthodoxy, does indeed often fit into a neat and tidy little box. I suppose for some people that would be a comfort.  Cool
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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2010, 10:44:00 PM »

I didn't mean to say that Orthodoxy was "an easy religion". What I meant is that as an Orthodox Christian, you won't find a patriarch or bishop or priest somewhere celebrating sacrilegous liturgies or promoting idolatry or preaching liberalism, you won't find gross scandals of corruption and inmoral life, you will not be forced to ressist the hierarchy as Catholics have been forced to do since Vatican II.

Traditionalist Roman Catholics bear a very heavy burden. Certainly, where liturgy is concerned (and it is the law of prayer that establishes the law of belief, and not the other way around as Pius XII stated in Mediator Dei), it has been broken for a long time now. Every Sunday mass should be sung, but "low mass syndrome" predominated in the Western church for centuries. Vatican II liturgical reform took something broken and broke it further. It's a hard road. I've often wondered the logic that goes through people's heads: "You guys have valid sacraments and holy orders and have preserved your liturgy, and our Western liturgy has been eviscerated... but we're in communion with the pope and you're not." It's cold comfort.
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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2010, 10:46:50 PM »

Alright, I'm going to rain on the parade here (which should be expected, given that this is an Orthodox Christian forum, and this is a born Orthodox talking about leaving the Orthodox Church).

Mexican, you have left the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. You are in schism and heresy, and you have placed your soul in eternal jeopardy. I admonish you in the name of Jesus Christ to repent of this great error, humble yourself, and repent!

Since one of your points of confusion is on the state of souls after death, may St. Mark of Ephesus intercede for you!

Fr. Anastasios,

Would you have appreciated the same admonishment when you left the Catholic Church?  I remember only prayers and well wishes at byzcath and here.  

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2010, 10:48:24 PM »

Traditionalist Roman Catholics bear a very heavy burden. Certainly, where liturgy is concerned (and it is the law of prayer that establishes the law of belief, and not the other way around as Pius XII stated in Mediator Dei), it has been broken for a long time now. Every Sunday mass should be sung, but "low mass syndrome" predominated in the Western church for centuries. Vatican II liturgical reform took something broken and broke it further. It's a hard road. I've often wondered the logic that goes through people's heads: "You guys have valid sacraments and holy orders and have preserved your liturgy, and our Western liturgy has been eviscerated... but we're in communion with the pope and you're not." It's cold comfort.


I'll be honest John I've often wondered about that. At what point do you look at the fruits and make the decision you're headed in the wrong direction? Is it really ok just because it comes from the pope?
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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2010, 10:49:24 PM »

I've often wondered the logic that goes through people's heads: "You guys have valid sacraments and holy orders and have preserved your liturgy, and our Western liturgy has been eviscerated... but we're in communion with the pope and you're not." It's cold comfort.

This is exactly the line of thinking that led me to start taking Orthodoxy seriously.
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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2010, 10:50:08 PM »

Fr. Anastasios,

Would you have appreciated the same admonishment when you left the Catholic Church?  I remember only prayers and well wishes at byzcath and here.  

Fr. Deacon Lance


I'm not exactly sure what reaction you would expect on an Orthodox forum.  Huh
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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2010, 11:05:59 PM »

Alright, I'm going to rain on the parade here (which should be expected, given that this is an Orthodox Christian forum, and this is a born Orthodox talking about leaving the Orthodox Church).

Mexican, you have left the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. You are in schism and heresy, and you have placed your soul in eternal jeopardy. I admonish you in the name of Jesus Christ to repent of this great error, humble yourself, and repent!

Since one of your points of confusion is on the state of souls after death, may St. Mark of Ephesus intercede for you!

Fr. Anastasios,

Would you have appreciated the same admonishment when you left the Catholic Church?  I remember only prayers and well wishes at byzcath and here.  

Fr. Deacon Lance

Fr. Deacon Lance,

Firstly, I don't recall ever publicly announcing when I left the Catholic Church here or on Byzcath.  Eventually, I began to refer to my conversion in the past tense, if I recall correctly; my conversion was such a long, drawn-out process, and I never wanted to draw attention to myself, and it eventually would have proven anti-climactic anyway to most.  If you can find an instance where I made a post akin to what Mexican has posted here, I'd be happy to be reminded of that though.

Secondly, yes, I would have appreciated such an admonition (which was given many times actually in person and on-line).  I respect when people call a spade a spade. Let's face it, despite what syncretistic well-wishers would have us believe, your church teaches that I am a formal heretic, and that I committed blasphemy/sacrilege by being baptized in the Orthodox Church upon my conversion.  No need to mince words or pretend that it was somehow ok from a Catholic perspective to do what I did. Well wishes won't save my soul.

Thirdly, if I were such a mean-spirited fellow, I wouldn't allow Catholics to post relatively freely on an Orthodox forum, even allowing them to congratulate someone who has left our Church.  But I won't apologize for putting the breaks on things in the midst of such uncharacteristic tolerance.

Finally, it is because of the uncompromising and forceful engagement of my beloved godfather Ioannis (who has posted on here, byzcath, and ecafe at various times) that I became Orthodox; when I was content to say that we're all one big happy family and all really believe the same thing, he pointed out the holes in that logic, the practical hypocrisy involved, and ultimately how the fuzziness of the thinking was going to keep me out of the Church. His rough--but loving--approach won me over.  I won't sit by and pretend that it's a good thing that Mexican left the Church of Christ.  I won't wish him well if by well it means accepting that he is gone.  No, we want him back!  He should be encouraged that we actually want him back, and care that he has left, and are not giving him some kind of unemotional, generic pat on the back for "following his beliefs/heart/conscience." That would be totally uncharitable!  He needs to return to the Orthodox Church, which by leaving he has seriously jeopardized his soul.

Fr Anastasios
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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2010, 11:21:02 PM »

 Catholics condemn those who become Orthodox, and Orthodox condemn those who become Catholic, which just provides an added layer of fear for anyone considering conversion.  Will God be merciful if we make the wrong decision?
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« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2010, 11:33:48 PM »

Catholics condemn those who become Orthodox, and Orthodox condemn those who become Catholic, which just provides an added layer of fear for anyone considering conversion.  Will God be merciful if we make the wrong decision?


"I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."

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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2010, 11:38:36 PM »

Yes, but again, RC's can whip out quotes from their saints saying the same thing.

And btw what happened "God desires all men to be saved"?  Isn't it possible God is more merciful and understanding than we are?  (I sure hope so anyway!)
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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2010, 11:42:23 PM »

Catholics condemn those who become Orthodox, and Orthodox condemn those who become Catholic, which just provides an added layer of fear for anyone considering conversion.  Will God be merciful if we make the wrong decision?

God is both merciful and just.  If someone is truly ignorant, then he takes that into account, but he is also trying to actively enlighten everyone at the same time as to the truth, and sometimes we are to blame for ignoring it.

We should not be "afraid" but we should still "fear God", in the other sense of fear (awe/reverence, etc).  If we have that disposition, we will be more likely to find the truth.  We must eradicate the passions from our souls, and not just rely on intellectualism, either.

And while God is probably more merciful than we are, we should at the same time not "bank on it." Better to be pleasantly surprised than sorely disappointed.
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2010, 11:43:10 PM »

Fr. Anastasios,

I believe God's greatest gifts to us, other than himself, are our free will and conscience.  If a person through prayer and study comes to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is not The Church and follows the dictates of his conscience I do not consider that person a heretic, schismatic, or blasphemer even though I may disagree with that conclusion.  I pray that our Lord Jesus Christ bless and keep him and if he has made the wrong decision I do not believe Christ will punish him for doing what he thought was right.  If that makes me a syncretistic well wisher, so be it.  I don't believe it does.  Pretending all things are equal or that it doesn't matter is one thing, respecting a persons right to follow the dictates of his conscience is another.  I have always considered the "your endagering your eternal soul" card, even if true, to not be so helpful.  The Parable of the Prodigal Son and the Forgiving Father gives us the best example I think.  Say no harsh words and wait with open arms.

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« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2010, 11:46:59 PM »

Yet if someone like the OP really tries to do his best to determine which church God wants him in, and comes to the conclusion that it's the RC, he's condemned to hell? Doesn't sound merciful OR just to me.  But what do I know, I'm just one o'them schismatic heretics myself. Cheesy
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« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2010, 11:51:16 PM »

Catholics condemn those who become Orthodox, and Orthodox condemn those who become Catholic, which just provides an added layer of fear for anyone considering conversion.  Will God be merciful if we make the wrong decision?
I certainly think so. Our Church teaches that even non-Christians may be saved, so I certainly don't think that any Christians that aren't Catholic are automatically going to hell. While I am happy that Mexican chose to be received into Full Communion with the Catholic Church, I would never think he would be damned if he remained Orthodox. I do wonder, however, if the Orthodox feel the same way about us. If I, as a Protestant turned Catholic, decide to remain in the Catholic Church until I die, do the Orthodox feel that I will automatically be condemned to the lake of fire simply because I remained Catholic and never became Orthodox?
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« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2010, 11:53:19 PM »

Your post is confusing. The Mexican national heroes were not schismastics, were they,

Neither is the SSPX.
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« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2010, 11:54:26 PM »

All I can say is that I understand one's desire to be part of their ancestors' religion.
This is, after all, what keeps most Orthodox in their churches, as well.
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« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2010, 11:54:47 PM »

Your post is confusing. The Mexican national heroes were not schismastics, were they,

Neither is the SSPX.
They put their own understanding above that of the Catholic Church. What else would you call that besides schismatic?
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« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2010, 11:55:32 PM »

Yet if someone like the OP really tries to do his best to determine which church God wants him in, and comes to the conclusion that it's the RC, he's condemned to hell? Doesn't sound merciful OR just to me.  But what do I know, I'm just one o'them schismatic heretics myself. Cheesy


But the reality is that attitude is a very recent development. Remember Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus?

Perhaps we are just more enlightened and in touch with God's love that our fathers who went before us.  Cool
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« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2010, 11:58:31 PM »


The Spanish conquerors of Mexico, as well as the defenders of new Mexico in 1846-47 as well as the Cristero martyrs were Catholic. Now I profess the same faith they professed.


Indeed, my friend. You are joining a Church under attack, from without and within. As Victor Laczlo says in Casablanca, Welcome back to the fight. This time I know our side will win.

You will do your forefathers proud in defending the faith.

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« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2010, 11:59:47 PM »

Catholics condemn those who become Orthodox, and Orthodox condemn those who become Catholic, which just provides an added layer of fear for anyone considering conversion.  Will God be merciful if we make the wrong decision?
I certainly think so. Our Church teaches that even non-Christians may be saved, so I certainly don't think that any Christians that aren't Catholic are automatically going to hell. While I am happy that Mexican chose to be received into Full Communion with the Catholic Church, I would never think he would be damned if he remained Orthodox. I do wonder, however, if the Orthodox feel the same way about us. If I, as a Protestant turned Catholic, decide to remain in the Catholic Church until I die, do the Orthodox feel that I will automatically be condemned to the lake of fire simply because I remained Catholic and never became Orthodox?

But if you continue being under the Pope, maybe  this one or a future one may come up with some new rule or law that may send you to hell..Fr. Ambrose Listed quite a few past popes that loved condemning people to hell..It was there favorite pastime, so you better watch out..... Grin
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« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2010, 12:00:02 AM »

They put their own understanding above that of the Catholic Church. What else would you call that besides schismatic?

Well, Rome says Catholics can go to SSPX Masses to fulfill their Sunday obligation. Rome says they are not even excommunicated, let alone in schism.

Who are you to contradict the Holy See?
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« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2010, 12:02:22 AM »

After The Honeymoon is over ,He May Come Back........... Grin Or Boredom might bring him back....I watched a Latin mass ,never been so bored in my life ...one the clergy sit alot to the side ,when they are at the altar they don't turn around but stand like little stiff soilders and maybe  turn once or twice for censing the people and  for benediction...too regimented and boring..... Grin

So you are Orthodox because it is entertaining on Sundays, eh?
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« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2010, 12:03:15 AM »



Catholicism, unlike Orthodoxy, does indeed often fit into a neat and tidy little box. I suppose for some people that would be a comfort.  Cool

I wish it did. Give it a real try sometime, and you'd see.
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« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2010, 12:05:00 AM »


Traditionalist Roman Catholics bear a very heavy burden. Certainly, where liturgy is concerned (and it is the law of prayer that establishes the law of belief, and not the other way around as Pius XII stated in Mediator Dei), it has been broken for a long time now. Every Sunday mass should be sung, but "low mass syndrome" predominated in the Western church for centuries. Vatican II liturgical reform took something broken and broke it further. It's a hard road. I've often wondered the logic that goes through people's heads: "You guys have valid sacraments and holy orders and have preserved your liturgy, and our Western liturgy has been eviscerated... but we're in communion with the pope and you're not." It's cold comfort.


Well, remember how it felt to be an Iconodule in the East in the 8th century. You stick by and fight the good fight.
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« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2010, 12:06:23 AM »

Who are you to contradict the Holy See?


What difference does it make who contradicts the Holy See since, according to the Catholics here one can just as easily attain salvation whether they are in the Church or not?
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« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2010, 12:07:10 AM »

Catholics condemn those who become Orthodox, and Orthodox condemn those who become Catholic, which just provides an added layer of fear for anyone considering conversion.  Will God be merciful if we make the wrong decision?
I certainly think so. Our Church teaches that even non-Christians may be saved, so I certainly don't think that any Christians that aren't Catholic are automatically going to hell. While I am happy that Mexican chose to be received into Full Communion with the Catholic Church, I would never think he would be damned if he remained Orthodox. I do wonder, however, if the Orthodox feel the same way about us. If I, as a Protestant turned Catholic, decide to remain in the Catholic Church until I die, do the Orthodox feel that I will automatically be condemned to the lake of fire simply because I remained Catholic and never became Orthodox?
No.  As a general rule, we have traditionally believed that those who never joined the Church (i.e., the Orthodox Church) will likely fare better on Judgment Day than those who once tasted of the heavenly Mysteries of the Church and left (i.e., fell into apostasy).  That's why Fr. Anastasios demonstrated toward Mexican a harshness of tone he's never shown toward lifelong Catholics here.
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« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2010, 12:09:02 AM »

Thirdly, if I were such a mean-spirited fellow, I wouldn't allow Catholics to post relatively freely on an Orthodox forum, even allowing them to congratulate someone who has left our Church.  

Father, if you don't mind enlightening me here, but for you, what is encompassed by the term "our Church"? Do those in communion with Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople make up part of this Church? Or are they also in schism like Mexican? I've always wondered.
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« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2010, 12:10:41 AM »

Thirdly, if I were such a mean-spirited fellow, I wouldn't allow Catholics to post relatively freely on an Orthodox forum, even allowing them to congratulate someone who has left our Church.  

Father, if you don't mind enlightening me here, but for you, what is encompassed by the term "our Church"? Do those in communion with Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople make up part of this Church? Or are they also in schism like Mexican? I've always wondered.
Has not Fr. Anastasios answered this question enough already on other threads without him having to bring it up again here?  As far as what he has stated here, I actually agree with him without reservation and support fully the harsh paternal tone he used with Mexican.  Yet I am in communion with Constantinople and Fr. Anastasios is not.  I therefore don't see the distinction (division?) you're trying to make.
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« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2010, 12:18:48 AM »

Who are you to contradict the Holy See?


What difference does it make who contradicts the Holy See since, according to the Catholics here one can just as easily attain salvation whether they are in the Church or not?

That is not true. The truth is, and our Catechism says, it is possible for non-Catholics to be saved. We entrust them to the mercy of God. We are bound by God's laws, but God is not bound by them.

Do you think that if we didn't think it mattered to be Catholic, the Catholic Church would have over a billion baptized members today, that Catholic missionaries would span the globe and are still doing amazing work in Africa and Asia?
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« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2010, 12:36:43 AM »

After The Honeymoon is over ,He May Come Back........... Grin Or Boredom might bring him back....I watched a Latin mass ,never been so bored in my life ...one the clergy sit alot to the side ,when they are at the altar they don't turn around but stand like little stiff soilders and maybe  turn once or twice for censing the people and  for benediction...too regimented and boring..... Grin

Conn---It Hurts to say this ,I can Agree with the New Mass they Have  ...Its  more lively......... Grin
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« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2010, 12:41:01 AM »

That is not true. The truth is, and our Catechism says, it is possible for non-Catholics to be saved. We entrust them to the mercy of God. We are bound by God's laws, but God is not bound by them.

"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." - Fourth Lateran Council



"Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins.........We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." - Unam sanctam



"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" - Pope Eugene IV



"I believe that in Baptism all sins are forgiven, that one which was committed originally as much as those which are voluntarily committed, and I profess that outside the Catholic Church no one is saved." - Pope Sylvester II



"With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved"  -Pope Innocent III



"No man of the wayfarers outside of the faith of this Church, and outside the obedience of the Pope of Rome, can finally be saved" - Pope Clement VI



"This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church" - Pope Leo XII



I particularly like this one compared to the statement from the modern Catechism above and to what Catholics on this thread have said.  Grin

"Far be it from Us, Venerable Brethren, to presume on the limits of the divine mercy which is infinite; far from Us, to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsel and "judgements of God" which are "a great abyss" (Ps. 35.7) and cannot be penetrated by human thought. But, as is Our Apostolic Duty, we wish your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to be aroused, so that you will strive as much as you can to drive form the mind of men that impious and equally fatal opinion, namely, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion whatsoever......"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation" - Pope Pius IX




That sounds like an awful lot of infallible pronouncements to me. Perhaps these quotes, like so many other things clearly written in Catholic documents, don't actually mean what they say?  Wink
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« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2010, 12:43:53 AM »

FWIW I didn't "congratulate" the OP, just wished him well. 

Also FWIW I am not saying RC and EO are the same and that it doesn't matter which you choose - far from it! However, just pointing out that they both make similar threats to anyone considering leaving their communion for the other one, which is pretty scary for a potential convert to EITHER side.

OK?
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