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Author Topic: Petros is Aramaic for First Born therefore Jesus does not say Peter is the rock  (Read 9961 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alfred Persson
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« Reply #90 on: August 30, 2010, 04:23:21 AM »

Advice please...how readable is this? (a writer I am not)

Is Simon πέτρος, Simon "rock" or Simon "firstborn"?

16 Simon, to whom He gave the name Peter; (Mar 3:16 NKJ) cf. Luke 6:14.

The classic exegesis answers "Simon Rock" as Mark and Luke say Jesus surnamed Simon πέτρος and this likely happened when Jesus said to Simon "Thou art Cephas" in John 1:42, which translated into Greek is πέτρος . Moreover, John's choice of the Attic πέτρος instead of the more common Koine λίθος connects this to Mat 16:18 "Thou art πέτρος" which is used instead of πέτρᾳ lest Simon be called a female name, when speaking about the Rock of the church.


42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas [κηφᾶς] " (which is translated, A Stone [πέτρος]). John 1:40-42 NKJ

"And I also say to you that you are Peter [πέτρος], and on this rock[πέτρᾳ] I will build My church, (Mat 16:18 NKJ)


The classic exegesis seems airtight, ruling out Simon "firstborn" completely. But is it?

When Jesus said Simon would be called κηφᾶς it was not a proper noun, therefore Jesus is not saying he would be called "Mr. Cephas". Years later, John translates this as a πέτρος, hence Jesus did not say he would be called "Mr. Petros" either.

"He would be called a stone"


But isn't the context about names? Didn't Jesus preface this with: "You are Simon the son of Jonah?" Then "Cephas" and "Petros" are names also. Or does it?

As both possible interpretations connect this saying to Mat 16:18, lets see if there are any clues to the meaning of "Simon the son of Jonah", whether correct exegesis requires a bit of Rabbinic Midrashic interpretation that looks for meaning in the symbols used.

In  Matthew 16:17 Jesus says "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."

This is transliterated Aramaic, why? In context Simon confessed divine revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. That makes him like the prophet Jonah, who figuratively rose from the dead to preach God's Word (Jonah 2:2ff). AND Simon was blessed indeed as all who confess publicly the divine revelation  Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God are born again (Rom 10:8).  Add to this the fact Simon is NOT a son of Jonah, his earthly father was named "John" (John 21:15f), and we must conclude "son of Jonah" requires Midrashic interpretation, the symbols convey meaning.


"Simon [hearing, like a] son [of the prophet] Jonah.You will be called cephas[ which is, a precious lively] stone [in God's temple (cp 1 Pe 2:5) from whose belly flows living water. Jo 7:38 cp 1 Co 10:4].


Then the connection to Mat 16:18 is not "petros to petros" as though John is explaining how Simon got the name, but Greater to lesser analogy PETRA >petros/kepa, Big Rock to little stone, both emitting life giving truth albeit the smaller was born from the greater when it confessed the PETRA Truth Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.  So John sees  Simon kepa as "a chip off the old block," a "lively stone" (cp 1 Pet 2:5) in God's temple, Jesus being the cornerstone.


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« Reply #91 on: August 30, 2010, 07:39:15 AM »

Advice please...how readable is this? (a writer I am not)

Thank you, Alfred, for this effort. Quite frankly, it's the first of your posts that I have read in its entirety in quite a while. The visual impression was much improved. I didn't feel as though you were trying to blast the reader with overly-emphasized statements as has happened in some of your earlier posts. Nor did you try to bury the reader with mountains of Scripture passages that may or may not be pertinent. I found this quite readable. The tone of this post seems to point to its having been written by someone else.

Does this mean that I agree with what you've said? I've never really given this topic much thought or study. It really has never seemed that important to the working out of my own salvation. I'm sure I have my own little pet projects about which others would say exactly the same thing, so I'm not faulting you on this at all. It's just that I don't frequent that part of town  Smiley. I will leave it to others to comment on the content, with the hope that they will focus on true discussion. This is not a matter, I believe, that requires complete agreement. You are certainly aware by now that there are some issues about which we Orthodox are very passionate and unyielding.

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« Reply #92 on: August 31, 2010, 01:57:01 PM »

Advice please...how readable is this? (a writer I am not)

Thank you, Alfred, for this effort. Quite frankly, it's the first of your posts that I have read in its entirety in quite a while. The visual impression was much improved. I didn't feel as though you were trying to blast the reader with overly-emphasized statements as has happened in some of your earlier posts. Nor did you try to bury the reader with mountains of Scripture passages that may or may not be pertinent. I found this quite readable. The tone of this post seems to point to its having been written by someone else.

Does this mean that I agree with what you've said? I've never really given this topic much thought or study. It really has never seemed that important to the working out of my own salvation. I'm sure I have my own little pet projects about which others would say exactly the same thing, so I'm not faulting you on this at all. It's just that I don't frequent that part of town  Smiley. I will leave it to others to comment on the content, with the hope that they will focus on true discussion. This is not a matter, I believe, that requires complete agreement. You are certainly aware by now that there are some issues about which we Orthodox are very passionate and unyielding.



Thanks for your insight. Writing clearly is hard work, or so the books on how to write clearly tell me.
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« Reply #93 on: August 31, 2010, 05:24:32 PM »

Quote from: Alfred Persson
... Add to this the fact Simon is NOT a son of Jonah, his earthly father was named "John" (John 21:15f), and we must conclude "son of Jonah" requires Midrashic interpretation, the symbols convey meaning.

I was being lazy, the TR the best text, I do not consider the reading "son of John" in the newer Bibles better than the TR "son of Jonah".

Rather I believe the phrase is an epithet like Cephas, implicit meaning being conveyed which requires exegesis Jesus would have been familiar with, Gezerah Shawah, one of the seven rabbinic rules of exegesis. An analogy is being implied between Simon and one who is "son of, or, after the manner of the prophet Jonah."

Its always possible this is a double entendre referring to both his earthly father and Jonah, but the presence of BarJonah in Mat 16:17 proves its reference to Jonah the prophet is primary.


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« Reply #94 on: September 02, 2010, 05:27:36 PM »

Why I connect 1 Jn 1:42 with 1 Pe 2:5

KJV  1 Peter 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone (LITHOS), disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
KJV  1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones(LITHOS), are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (1Pe 2:4-5 KJV)

Its odd few connect lithos here to kepa in Jn 1:42 when 1 Cor 10:4 PETRA is LITHOS here.

NKJ  1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
[ps. Christ followed them, He is the rock; not the Rabbinic legend of moving rocks...]

Thanks to Bibleworks 8.0 we can see the connection between KEPA and LITHOS.

EVERY VERSE IN SEPTUAGINT WHERE KEPA IS TRANSLATED AS LITHOS, notice the stone is sometimes described as "precious" as in 1 Pet 2:4

NFM 0068 אֶבֶן 'eben LITHOS
LXE  Genesis 11:3 And a man said to his neighbour, Come, let us make bricks and bake them with fire. And the brick was to them for stone, and their mortar was bitumen.

FTM 0068 אֶבֶן 'eben LITHOS
LXE  Genesis 28:11 And came to a certain place and slept there, for the sun had gone down; and he took one of the stones of the place, and put it at his head, and lay down to sleep in that place,

TAM 06443 פָּנִין paniyn LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 3:15 And she is more valuable than precious stones: no evil thing shall resist her: she is well known to all that approach her, and no precious thing is equal to her in value.

TAM 06443 פָּנִין paniyn LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 8:11 For wisdom is better than precious stones; and no valuable substance is of equal worth with it.

TAM 0068 אֶבֶן 'eben LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 24:31 If thou let him alone, he will altogether remain barren and covered with weeds; and he becomes destitute, and his stone walls are broken down.

TAM 0068 אֶבֶן 'eben  LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 26:8 He that binds up a stone in a sling, is like one that gives glory to a fool.


TAM 0068 אֶבֶן 'eben  LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 26:27 He that digs a pit for his neighbour shall fall into it: and he that rolls a stone, rolls it upon himself.

TAM 0068 אֶבֶן  LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 26:27 He that digs a pit for his neighbour shall fall into it: and he that rolls a stone, rolls it upon himself.

TAM 0068 אֶבֶן  LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 27:3 A stone is heavy, and sand cumbersome; but a fool's wrath is heavier than both.

TAM 06443 פָּנִין paniyn  LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 31:10 Who shall find a virtuous woman? for such a one is more valuable than precious stones.

TAM 1ST KEPA  0068 אֶבֶן 'eben LITHOS
2ND KEPA 06697 צוּר tsuwr  PETRA
LXE  Isaiah 8:14 And if thou shalt trust in him, he shall be to thee for a sanctuary; and ye shall not come against him as against a stumbling-stone, neither as against the falling of a rock: but the houses of Jacob are in a snare, and the dwellers in Jerusalem in a pit.


I'm still working on this, connecting the dots...in case any were wondering.

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« Reply #95 on: September 02, 2010, 11:55:14 PM »

6 Behold, I stand there before thou come, on the rock(petra) in Choreb, and thou shalt smite the rock(petra), and water shall come out from it, and the people shall drink. And Moses did so before the sons of Israel.(Exo 17:6 LXE)

This prefigured the risen Christ from whom flows a fountain of living water:

4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock(petra) that followed them, and that Rock(petra) was Christ.  (1Co 10:4 NKJ)

Christ is the Rock who followed them, "I stand there before you", not a traveling well or rock as some suppose.

who brought thee through that great and terrible wilderness, where is the biting serpent, and scorpion, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee a fountain of water out of the flinty rock(Aram. kepa; Gr. petra): (Deu 8:15 LXE)


10 Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you,`Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
 11 The woman said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water?
 12 "Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?"
 13 Jesus answered and said to her, "Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again,
 14 "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life."
 (Joh 4:10-14 NKJ)

Moses ruined the analogy to the once crucified Christ by striking the Rock twice and inserting himself into imagery:

8 Take thy rod, and call the assembly, thou and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye to the rock(Aram. kepa; Gr. petra) before them, and it shall give forth its waters; and ye shall bring forth for them water out of the rock(Aram. kepa; Gr. petra), and give drink to the congregation and their cattle.
 9 And Moses took his rod which was before the Lord, as the Lord commanded.
 10 And Moses and Aaron assembled the congregation before the rock(Aram. kepa; Gr. petra), and said to them, Hear me, ye disobedient ones; must we bring you water out of this rock(Aram. kepa; Gr. petra)?
 11 And Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock(Aram. kepa; Gr. petra) with his rod twice; and much water came forth, and the congregation drank, and their cattle.
 12 And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, Because ye have not believed me to sanctify me before the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
 13 This is the water of Strife, because the children of Israel spoke insolently before the Lord, and he was sanctified in them. (Num 20:8-13 LXE)

In the Aramaic Versions this is KEPA Rock, in the Greek PETRA Rock:

He brought them up on the strength of the land; he fed them with the fruits of the fields; they sucked honey out of the rock(Aram. kepa; Gr. petra), and oil out of the solid rock(Aram. kepa; Gr. petra). (Deu 32:13 LXE)


In John 1;40-42 Jesus called Simon Petros a KEPA Rock:

42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas(kepa) " (which is translated, A Stone(petros)). (Joh 1:42 NKJ)

That Christ was applying this imagery to Peter, albeit as a smaller version of it, is clear from Peter's reapplication of this to believers:

3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
 4 Coming to Him as to a living stone(lithos), rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,
 5 you also, as living stones(lithos), are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone(lithos), elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."
 7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone(lithos),"
 8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
 9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
 (1Pe 2:3-9 NKJ)


"Lively stones" = "proclaim the praises of Him" = "from whose belly flows living water"

Peter's use of LITHOS rather than PETRA and John's translation of KEPA as PETROS, kept many from making the proper connection.

However, thanks to Bibleworks 8.0 we can easily compare the ancient Aramaic versions see how KEPA = LITHOS, and also see the reference to "precious" stone. The following lists every occurrence of KEPA in the Aramaic versions that is translated as LITHOS in the Greek Septuagint, numerically coded to Strong's Hebrew:

NFM 0068 אֶבֶן 'eben LITHOS
LXE  Genesis 11:3 And a man said to his neighbour, Come, let us make bricks and bake them with fire. And the brick was to them for stone, and their mortar was bitumen.

FTM 0068 אֶבֶן 'eben LITHOS
LXE  Genesis 28:11 And came to a certain place and slept there, for the sun had gone down; and he took one of the stones of the place, and put it at his head, and lay down to sleep in that place,

TAM 06443 פָּנִין paniyn LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 3:15 And she is more valuable than precious stones: no evil thing shall resist her: she is well known to all that approach her, and no precious thing is equal to her in value.

TAM 06443 פָּנִין paniyn LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 8:11 For wisdom is better than precious stones; and no valuable substance is of equal worth with it.

TAM 0068 אֶבֶן 'eben LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 24:31 If thou let him alone, he will altogether remain barren and covered with weeds; and he becomes destitute, and his stone walls are broken down.

TAM 0068 אֶבֶן 'eben  LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 26:8 He that binds up a stone in a sling, is like one that gives glory to a fool.


TAM 0068 אֶבֶן 'eben  LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 26:27 He that digs a pit for his neighbour shall fall into it: and he that rolls a stone, rolls it upon himself.

TAM 0068 אֶבֶן  LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 26:27 He that digs a pit for his neighbour shall fall into it: and he that rolls a stone, rolls it upon himself.

TAM 0068 אֶבֶן  LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 27:3 A stone is heavy, and sand cumbersome; but a fool's wrath is heavier than both.

TAM 06443 פָּנִין paniyn  LITHOS
LXE  Proverbs 31:10 Who shall find a virtuous woman? for such a one is more valuable than precious stones.

TAM 1ST KEPA  0068 אֶבֶן 'eben LITHOS
2ND KEPA 06697 צוּר tsuwr  PETRA
LXE  Isaiah 8:14 And if thou shalt trust in him, he shall be to thee for a sanctuary; and ye shall not come against him as against a stumbling-stone, neither as against the falling of a rock: but the houses of Jacob are in a snare, and the dwellers in Jerusalem in a pit.

*Strong's numbers and transliteration
LXE English Translation of the Septuagint by Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton
FTM Bibleworks TargumFrags/NeofMaginalia/SheniSuppEsther Morphology
NFM Bibleworks Targum Neofiti Morphology
TAM Bibleworks Targumim (Aramaic Old Testament) Morphology


Why did John, writing years after the event, translate KEPA as PETROS and not LITHOS?

He was connecting this event to Mat 16:17ff, to KEPA/PETRA, and not PETROS as some have supposed.

The analogy John sees is Simon is the smaller KEPA/Petros born of the larger  PETRA truth he confessed in Mat 16:17. The divine revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, is the PETRA-TRUTH  from which flows living water to the church.

THIS is why Simon is truly blessed, having confessed the divinely revealed Gospel of Christ, he has been born again (Rom 10:5ff).

 Simon has become the PeTeR (Heb. 6363, PaTaR Aram. "Firstborn) of the divinely revealed  Gospel of Christ, hence he truly is Bar-Jonah, like Jonah, risen from the dead preaching the Word of God.

Hence Jesus responds to Simon's identifying Him as the Christ, by identifying Simon as the Firstborn of the Gospel of Christ, upon which He will build His church.

"YOU [now] are Firstborn and upon this very Rock-Truth I will build my church."

That there was in Aram. a proper name Petros (Str.-B., I, 530) which perhaps meant “firstborn” (Levy Wört., s.v., פֶּטֶר; Dalman Wört., s.v.) might have influenced the preference for Petros, but this is by no means certain.
Aram. Aramaic.
Str.-B. H. L. Strack and P. Billerbeck, Kommentar zum NT aus Talmud und Midrasch, 1922 ff.
s.v. sub voce.
Dalman Wört. G. Dalman, Aramäisch-neuhebräisches Wörterbuch, 1901.
s.v. sub voce.
Theological dictionary of the New Testament. 1964- (G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley & G. Friedrich, Ed.) (electronic ed.). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

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« Reply #96 on: September 03, 2010, 01:22:12 PM »

Son of Jonah is PARONOMASIA

Simon "Son of Jonah" either is paronomasia  double entendre referring to Simon's father (John 21:15-17) and the prophet Jonah (Mat 16:17; John 1:42) or just the latter, but not solely a reference to his earthly father.

NKJ  Matthew 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. (Mat 16:17 NKJ)

With the Hebrews a name was a speaking reality, even more than with the Greeks. Not only were thoughts and sentiments attached to names, but even most of the historical lore was grouped around them as landmarks and milestones. The names of persons, tribes and places were made to suggest the moral character attributed to them, or the important events connected with them.-Immanuel M. Casanowicz, PARONOMASIA IN THE OLD TESTAMENT,  (Norwood Press, Boston, Mass. 1894) p. 36 Google Books.

Transliterating Aramaic is an apostolic device meant to convey meaning:

And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus, (Act 4:36 NKJ)

Matthew transliterated Bar-Jonah in Mat 16:18 to invoke the image of Jonah the prophet risen from dead preaching the Word of God, just as "Son of Man" (Mat 26:64) alludes to one "like a son of man" arriving with the clouds to be escorted to the Ancient of Days to granted a kingdom (Dan 7:13-14).

16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.(Mat 16:16-17 NKJ)

Confessing the Divine revelation Jesus is the Christ (Rom 10:5ff) results in Blessing indeed, like Jonah the prophet figuratively risen from Sheol to preach the Word of God to the Ninevites (Jonah 2:2ff; cp "sign of Jonah" Mat 16:4; Rom 6:4; Eph 2:5f), so also the PeTeR/PaTaR/PETROS "Firstborn" of the life giving PETRA Truth upon which Christ would build His church. Clearly Paul gives this event Qal wahomer application: What occurred on a small scale with Peter, happens to the entire church:

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Rom 10:8-10 NKJ)


We cannot ignore these parallels and suppose Jesus is identifying Simon's early father as Jonah or predicting the name PETROS would one day be popular. Where are examples of such mediocrity in Jesus' preaching?

NKJ  John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, "You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas " (which is translated, A Stone).
 (Joh 1:42 NKJ)

Therefore Scholars misread the connection John made to Mat 16:17ff, he is not explaining how Simon got the name Petros---which according to John 1:40 he already had.  As it is unhistorical to interpret Jesus is calling Simon "Mr. Cephas" or "Mr. Petros" in John 1:42, the connection clearly is not to first part of Mat 16:18 where Jesus does call Simon "Mr. Petros", saying "You ARE Petros" to note a fundamental change in Simon just occurred.

The connection John sees is Simon as a kepa,  "a chip off the old block," a "lively stone" (cp 1 Pet 2:5) in God's temple, Jesus being the chief cornerstone. This is a greater to lesser analogy, PETRA >petros/kepa, Big Rock to little stone, from both flow rivers of living water, life giving truth about Christ's identity, albeit the smaller cepha Simon was born from the greater cepha/PETRA when he confessed the PETRA Truth "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God" in verse 17, and therefore was born again, becoming the "First" born of the divinely revealed Son of God.


  As for "son of Jonah" in c. 21 of John, it recalls the height from whence Simon "First" had fallen, bringing to his remembrance he has a job to do for His LORD:

15 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed My lambs."
 16 He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Tend My sheep."
 17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.
 (Joh 21:15-17 NKJ)
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« Reply #97 on: September 03, 2010, 06:57:40 PM »

re 1 Cor 15:8
 NKJ  1 Corinthians 15:8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time. (1Co 15:8 NKJ)


http://books.google.com/books?id=ZBFeqxI7vjkC&pg=PA94&lpg=PA94&dq=Erstgeborener+petros&source=bl&ots=HVczuiyagu&sig=93n_RZawTb5YRwWgdOPxnSdeSoA&hl=en&ei=QXaBTKXPLI-osQP9l5H3Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Erstgeborener%20petros&f=false


Das paulinische Evangelium: Vorgeschichte, Volume 1
 By Peter Stuhlmacher

auf einen aramäischen Eigennamen Petros hinweisen; zu dessen möglicher Entstehung aus PeTeR - Erstgeborener, vgl. Cullman, ThWbVIS. 100 Anm. 8; Petrus 2 S.20. Schwingt der Unterton von,, erstgeboren in PETROS bzw. dann auch KEPHAS mit, würde dies überraschendes Licht Auf die bisher umstrittene Redeweise von Paulus als dem letzten Offenbarungsempfänger und dem ECHTRWMA in 1 Kor. 15.8 werfen.


Babylon Translation:

At a proper name ARAMAIC Petros out; to its possible emergence of PeTeR - firstborn, cf. Cullman, ThWb VI S. 100 Anm. 8; Peter 2 P. 20. shifts the undertone of" erstgeboren in PETROS bzw. then PETER, would this surprising light on the previously disputed Redeweise of Paul than the last Offenbarungsempfänger and ECHTRWMA in 1 Corinthians. 15.8 throw.



Evidently Prof Cullmann saw PETROS emerging from Strong's 6363 PeTeR, or [in his book "Peter" he points to 6362 PaTaR], and some speculate PETROS Firstborn sheds light on Paul's "Lastborn" in 1 Cor. 15:8


Just trying to pin down the precise argument for PETROS being firstborn...unfortunately I don't speak German.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 06:58:30 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #98 on: September 04, 2010, 05:28:45 AM »

Edersheim weighs in

’ But both the Greek Petros and Petra have (as already stated) passed into Rabbinic language. Thus, the name Peter, or rather Petros, is Jewish, and occurs, for example, as that of the father of a certain Rabbi (José bar Petros).d When the Lord, therefore, prophetically gave the name Cephas, it may have been that by that term He gave only a prophetic interpretation to what had been his previous name, Peter (פייטרס). This seems the more likely, since, as we have previously seen, it was the practice in Galilee to have two names,1 especially when the strictly Jewish name, such as Simon, had no equivalent among the Gentiles.2
Edersheim, A. (1896). Vol. 2: The life and times of Jesus the Messiah (82). Bellingham, WA: Logos
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« Reply #99 on: September 04, 2010, 06:29:20 AM »

Another KITTEL's quote

Str.-B., III, 258. “Firstborn” can also be used in malam partem: the most dangerous or dreadful of its kind (ibid., 258 f.); cf. already Job 18:13 (Mas.): “firstborn of death” for a bad illness. Cf. also πρωτότοκος τοῦ σατανᾶ for a heretic, Pol., 7, 1; cf. Mart. Pol. epil., 3; Iren. Haer., III, 3, 4. Cf. W. Bauer, Rechtgläubigkeit u. Ketzerei im ältesten Christentum (1939), 74, 237. The Aram. proper name פֶּטְרוֹס (on the various ways of writing it cf. Str.-B., I, 530 on Mt. 10:2) may be connected with פטר and if so means the διανοίγων τὴν μήτραν → 872, 27, the firstborn. Cf. → 101, n. 8; O. Cullmann, Petrus (1952), 13 and n. 11; 14, n. 13 (ET [1953], 19, n. 11, 13); O. Betz, “Felsenmann u. Felsengemeinde,” ZNW, 48 (1957), 65, n. 48.

Theological dictionary of the New Testament. 1964- (G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley & G. Friedrich, Ed.) (electronic ed.). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
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« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2010, 02:47:09 PM »

Thank you Alfred for all your labours of love in the word of God.
I was interested in this thread and thought to add a simple word on the topic , myself.
To start with, Peter's Body was found way back in the fifties in a tomb in Jerusalem.
Of course, this got covered up by certain dissinformationists.
*******
The Built-in Holy Bible Dictionary
on: July 15, 2006, 12:54:00 AM

--------------------
And That Rock Was Christ

Speaking of "ROCK"..Check this out that I put together a couple days ago.
Having a discussion with a Catholic about "upon this rock" Or trying to, anyway.
*******
*******
The Holy Bible's definition of "Rock" is....

Much better than man's. Much better!
That got me to thinking...
What is the Holy Bible's ultimate description of Rock, namely, the first
mention of "rock".

Exodus 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb ;and
thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come out water out of it ,that the
people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

I find it very interesting that the LORD stood before Moses upon the rock. He
shows us the very best place to stand. Upon the Rock.

The LORD is always with us. He prepares a way for us to minister to the needs
of his people.
It is not you giving to the needs of the people [water from the rock] but
Christ our rock that gives to the needs of the people through our obedience
as we stand upon him, our sure foundation and authority.

It is also very interesting that the same verse includes the term "rock"
twice. The next time "rock" is mentioned is because it gets smitten. Just like
Jesus, our Rock.

...yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.Isaiah 53:4.
Also, Moses was to be LIKE God. [Ex.4:15,16] So we have the picture of God
smiting the Rock, Jesus, in the picture of Moses smiting the rock in the
wilderness mountain of Horeb.

Of course Mt.Horeb is the meeting place of God.
To meet God we must go to the Rock that was smitten.

And then out flows the abundance of water.
Jesus said to the woman at the well..
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never
thirst; the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water
springing up into everlasting life.John 4:14.

Jesus is the water of life. Jesus is the Word.
The water of the word washes us clean.Eph.5:26


The Holy Bible is very clear, that the "ROCK" is none other than Jesus Christ
our Saviour.

That is pure Bible, and the words and traditions of man are making the
commandments of God of none effect.

Those that keep the commandment of God have the testimony of Jesus Christ
Rev.12:7

Those that keep the commandments of God have faith in Jesus.Rev.14:12

Only those that do his commandments, [willingly in faith,] not man's, will have right to the tree of
life and enter through the gates into the city.Rev.22:14

Wonderful words of life!
Just follow the Book.
Just believe the Book.
There is only one Holy Bible.

Peter Fuhrman

Holy Bible
There is only one.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:
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« Reply #101 on: November 15, 2010, 03:37:59 PM »

Hmm well this is suspicious...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #102 on: November 15, 2010, 04:15:43 PM »

Thank you Alfred for all your labours of love in the word of God.
Soooo. Alfred has made a convert.
Mat. 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves."
Quote
I was interested in this thread and thought to add a simple word on the topic , myself.
To start with, Peter's Body was found way back in the fifties in a tomb in Jerusalem.
Of course, this got covered up by certain dissinformationists.
The Masons?
Quote
*******
The Built-in Holy Bible Dictionary
on: July 15, 2006, 12:54:00 AM

--------------------
And That Rock Was Christ

Speaking of "ROCK"..Check this out that I put together a couple days ago.
Having a discussion with a Catholic about "upon this rock" Or trying to, anyway.
*******
*******
The Holy Bible's definition of "Rock" is....

Much better than man's. Much better!
That got me to thinking...
What is the Holy Bible's ultimate description of Rock, namely, the first
mention of "rock".

Exodus 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb ;and
thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come out water out of it ,that the
people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

I find it very interesting that the LORD stood before Moses upon the rock. He
shows us the very best place to stand. Upon the Rock.

The LORD is always with us. He prepares a way for us to minister to the needs
of his people.
It is not you giving to the needs of the people [water from the rock] but
Christ our rock that gives to the needs of the people through our obedience
as we stand upon him, our sure foundation and authority.

It is also very interesting that the same verse includes the term "rock"
twice. The next time "rock" is mentioned is because it gets smitten. Just like
Jesus, our Rock.

...yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.Isaiah 53:4.
Also, Moses was to be LIKE God. [Ex.4:15,16] So we have the picture of God
smiting the Rock, Jesus, in the picture of Moses smiting the rock in the
wilderness mountain of Horeb.

Of course Mt.Horeb is the meeting place of God.
To meet God we must go to the Rock that was smitten.

And then out flows the abundance of water.
Jesus said to the woman at the well..
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never
thirst; the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water
springing up into everlasting life.John 4:14.

Jesus is the water of life. Jesus is the Word.
The water of the word washes us clean.Eph.5:26


The Holy Bible is very clear, that the "ROCK" is none other than Jesus Christ
our Saviour.

That is pure Bible, and the words and traditions of man are making the
commandments of God of none effect.

Those that keep the commandment of God have the testimony of Jesus Christ
Rev.12:7

Those that keep the commandments of God have faith in Jesus.Rev.14:12

Only those that do his commandments, [willingly in faith,] not man's, will have right to the tree of
life and enter through the gates into the city.Rev.22:14

Wonderful words of life!
Just follow the Book.
Just believe the Book.
There is only one Holy Bible.

Peter Fuhrman

Holy Bible
There is only one.
*******
PeterAV
Every word of God is pure:
Since the Orthodox Church has taught this long before you two showed up, it hardly bothers us at all.

Learn to distinguish us from the Vatican, then get back to us.
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« Reply #103 on: November 15, 2010, 05:04:40 PM »

Thank you Alfred for all your labours of love in the word of God.
Soooo. Alfred has made a convert.

Although possible, I haven't ruled out the other possibility yet...
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« Reply #104 on: November 15, 2010, 05:05:12 PM »

Hmm well this is suspicious...  Roll Eyes

A bit, lol!
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« Reply #105 on: November 15, 2010, 05:07:57 PM »

Thank you Alfred for all your labours of love in the word of God.
Soooo. Alfred has made a convert.

Although possible, I haven't ruled out the other possibility yet...
you mean, after all that effort and work Roll Eyes, and spilling of electrons, he may not have made a convert?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #106 on: November 15, 2010, 05:14:03 PM »

Thank you Alfred for all your labours of love in the word of God.
Soooo. Alfred has made a convert.

Although possible, I haven't ruled out the other possibility yet...
you mean, after all that effort and work Roll Eyes, and spilling of electrons, he may not have made a convert?

Perhaps it is best to err on the side of caution Wink
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« Reply #107 on: November 15, 2010, 05:35:43 PM »

Thank you Alfred for all your labours of love in the word of God.
Soooo. Alfred has made a convert.

Although possible, I haven't ruled out the other possibility yet...
you mean, after all that effort and work Roll Eyes, and spilling of electrons, he may not have made a convert?

Perhaps it is best to err on the side of caution Wink
If Perssonism used caution more it would err less.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #108 on: November 15, 2010, 07:50:20 PM »

This is his profile on something called Bible Protector.com, "for pure Cambridge Edition guardians"  Roll Eyes :

http://www.bibleprotector.com/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=3&sid=73bdcc1c57fb0d7dce91f292e0af72e5

Seems to be from Kamloops, B.C. If that is really him- if that is his real name.

"Final Authority: Holy Bible's Built-in Dictionary of the King James Bible

Using the Word of God to define words that are found in the in His word. Just click onto the words and it will take you to our message board where Peter defines Scripture with Scripture." And not in ways that would have been recognizable to, er, the Anglicans...

Peter's nickname on his own profile seems to be "Holy Bible."  Shocked Wow. He does not mince words there, either. We like ourselves pretty well, don't we!

This guy's forum logo is, also, an open Bible.  Roll Eyes

Where's Jeremy Brett when you need him?
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« Reply #109 on: November 17, 2010, 01:32:18 AM »

Christ is the cornerstone that the builders rejected. Isn't Jesus Christ our rock of salvation?

Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

And when Peter confessed Christ with Words that are in the Word of our Scriptures, and Christ responded on "this" rock I build my church, couldn't he have been referring to Peter's words?

Wasn't it after all, that Jesus named Peter the rock because he spoke those words?
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« Reply #110 on: November 17, 2010, 02:02:04 AM »

"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
Matthew 16:16

Question is...what Rock? Peter who died (and thus allowed the Church to die with him...?) or another sturdier foundation? Of course the foundation is given to us:

Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
-Matthew 16:18

THAT is the Rock. God revealed it to Peter and he cannot contradict himself. The Rock is given to us previously in scripture:


My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge,
         My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge;
         My savior, You save me from violence.

- 2 Samuel 22:3

Build your Church on a strong foundation- Christ not Peter. And of course the Keys of heaven are in the Apostolic church, not fake churches without sacraments,the priesthood and the office of a Bishop.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 02:04:00 AM by Rafa999 » Logged

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« Reply #111 on: November 17, 2010, 05:15:10 PM »

"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."
Matthew 16:16

Question is...what Rock? Peter who died (and thus allowed the Church to die with him...?) or another sturdier foundation? Of course the foundation is given to us:

Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
-Matthew 16:18

THAT is the Rock. God revealed it to Peter and he cannot contradict himself. The Rock is given to us previously in scripture:


My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge,
         My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge;
         My savior, You save me from violence.

- 2 Samuel 22:3

Build your Church on a strong foundation- Christ not Peter. And of course the Keys of heaven are in the Apostolic church, not fake churches without sacraments,the priesthood and the office of a Bishop.
So now you believe that the Catholic Church is a fake Church with no sacraments?
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« Reply #112 on: November 17, 2010, 05:28:02 PM »

I donot believe the RCC is a "fake church with no sacraments" personally. But...Well make up your mind- is the Church built on Peter or Christ ? Please say Christ and stick to it consistently since everybody is worried about Rome changing what the definition of a Bishop is. The ROC for instance says the RCC has valid sacraments but it privately doe not accept the institution of the papacy in any form. The ACOE also says that the Church is built on Christ not Peter who died and that changing the definition of a Bishop can even lead to invalid sacraments (this is noted for protestants...it can eerily be noted for the RCC as well). The concept of "Petrine primacy" or a "first among equals" was never taught in the East. I have to say...Father Ambrose is right when he says the office of the papacy is as foreign to the Apostolic teachings as the female episcopacy.
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« Reply #113 on: November 17, 2010, 09:27:38 PM »

I donot believe the RCC is a "fake church with no sacraments" personally. But...Well make up your mind- is the Church built on Peter or Christ ? Please say Christ and stick to it consistently since everybody is worried about Rome changing what the definition of a Bishop is. The ROC for instance says the RCC has valid sacraments but it privately doe not accept the institution of the papacy in any form. The ACOE also says that the Church is built on Christ not Peter who died and that changing the definition of a Bishop can even lead to invalid sacraments (this is noted for protestants...it can eerily be noted for the RCC as well). The concept of "Petrine primacy" or a "first among equals" was never taught in the East. I have to say...Father Ambrose is right when he says the office of the papacy is as foreign to the Apostolic teachings as the female episcopacy.
Of Course the Church was built on Christ. What is your point?
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