Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 197138 times)

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Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1530 on: October 28, 2010, 03:23:22 PM »
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?

Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose.

Yes, and he specifically said he was planning to post refutations of it as soon as he got it.

I doubt he will read it any differently than he has read St. John Chrysostom, Gregory Palamas, or for that matter the Scriptures themselves.

But - hope springs eternal!  ;D
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1531 on: October 28, 2010, 03:58:38 PM »
What in the world are you talking about?

What are you talking about?

Hahaha. This basically sums up every one of your threads, Alfred.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1532 on: October 28, 2010, 04:00:47 PM »
Whachoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1533 on: October 28, 2010, 04:16:03 PM »
Whachoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?

Gary Coleman (Arnold), Different Strokes.  (Are we still guessing your quotations?)

8)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1534 on: October 28, 2010, 06:00:53 PM »
Nah, I's just feelin' silly. :)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1535 on: October 28, 2010, 06:17:02 PM »
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?

Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose. When you fight with him, it's a waste of bandwidth.

In the lady's defense, Alfred has already stated that he is an unapologetic fighter, after the manner of Christ and the apostles, and that he prefers a heated discussion.

Oh yes, it gives him a perverse pleasure. That does not mean we should participate in his destruction.

BTW...He may have a demon...................... not kidding.

After he said he either disliked, or had discomfort, or something about the Cross, I lean toward that possibility as well.

I am not trying to be too weird here, but there is such a thing. He has violent fantasies when he sees iconic images of the Lord and his Saints. He gets his jollies by fighting. He attacks The Church regularly. He sounds a bit down... Some other things

I am not suggesting his head spins and he spews green stuff. But once in a while we all can become open to attack by a demon or two. It doesn't make you a bad person, it just means you need to push back and resist egging on.

 Alfred, if you are reading this. I think you may be possessed by a Demon. However, I mean that in the nicest possible way. :)

So, less fighting on the Internet, more Jesus Prayer if you can manage it. It is Slavic in such situations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFhybmvrY0&feature=related

    
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 06:17:41 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1536 on: October 28, 2010, 06:23:01 PM »
Well, what has been said may or may not be true, Alfred certainly needs prayers.
Lord, have mercy.
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Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1537 on: October 28, 2010, 08:03:38 PM »
Alfred, if you are reading this. I think you may be possessed by a Demon. However, I mean that in the nicest possible way. :)

I, on the other hand, doubt very much that Alfred is possessed by a demon.  But it would not surprise me if he disagreed with me simply because I said so.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 08:11:43 PM by tuesdayschild »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1538 on: October 28, 2010, 09:56:52 PM »
Alfred, if you are reading this. I think you may be possessed by a Demon. However, I mean that in the nicest possible way. :)

I, on the other hand, doubt very much that Alfred is possessed by a demon.  But it would not surprise me if he disagreed with me simply because I said so.

I expect to be dishonored, it comes with the territory:

 48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?"
 49 Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
 (Joh 8:48-49 NKJ)

1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:


21 Others said, "These are not the words of one who has a demon (Joh 10:21 NKJ)


« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 09:58:20 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1539 on: October 28, 2010, 10:02:57 PM »
The flaw in your response, Alfred, is that you are not Jesus.
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1540 on: October 28, 2010, 10:21:14 PM »
The context is not 6th century Orthodoxy, that came centuries too late.

Who said anything about the sixth century? ALL of the Church Fathers in every land and every century have disagreed with you, including the early/Ante-Nicene Fathers whom you claim to respect.

At the end of this post you'll find 3 example quotes (from among many) which show how the early Church Fathers saw the Eucharist.

The context for the Scriptures is indeed the Church that wrote them and canonized them under the direction of the Holy Spirit: the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church: one Church, one Body of Christ, which exists according to the whole (kata + holon), throughout space and time (even the sixth century!)

Was Jesus talking about literal bread, that you could bake or boil
or use 5 loaves to feed 5 thousand...

oh... wait... that's right, I forgot.

You cannot say "flesh" here is literal, but deny Christ didn't say the Jews listening should murder and eat Him:

 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. (Joh 6:56 KJV)

Its either figurative....or literal, its not both.

How what you've said addresses my post you quoted I don't know. But let's be clear: it is you who are equivocating on the literalness/figurativeness of "flesh" in John 6.

You would have us believe that throughout the chapter, "flesh" means something besides "literal", corporeal flesh - in other words, it's figurative - but that then in verse 63, "flesh" means literal, corporeal flesh.

What we are saying is that σαρξ means what it ALWAYS means in the Bible: real, corporeal flesh.

However, while all flesh is real/corporeal in the sense that it can be seen and touched, etc.,
Quote from: 1 Corinthians 15:39-50 (KJV)
all flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. [40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. [41] There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. [42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: [44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. [45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. [48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. [49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

You want us to say Christ's Flesh is either real flesh or else figurative, i.e., not real. We say It is both REAL and SPIRITUAL.

-----

Quote from: Letters of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter VII
Let Us Stand Aloof from Such Heretics. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.

Quote from: First Apology of Justin, Chapter LXVI, Of the Eucharist
And this food is called among us the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.

Quote from: Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter II
By shedding His true blood for us, and exhibiting to us His true flesh in the Eucharist, He conferred upon our flesh the capacity of salvation.

2. But vain in every respect are they who despise the entire dispensation of God, and disallow the salvation of the flesh, and treat with contempt its regeneration, maintaining that it is not capable of incorruption. But if this indeed do not attain salvation, then neither did the Lord redeem us with His blood, nor is the cup of the Eucharist the communion of His blood, nor the bread which we break the communion of His body. For blood can only come from veins and flesh, and whatsoever else makes up the substance of man, such as the Word of God was actually made. By His own blood he redeemed us, as also His apostle declares, "In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the remission of sins." And as we are His members, we are also nourished by means of the creation (and He Himself grants the creation to us, for He causes His sun to rise, and sends rain when He wills). He has acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as His own blood, from which He bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of the creation) He has established as His own body, from which He gives increase to our bodies.

3. When, therefore, the mingled cup and the manufactured bread receives the Word of God, and the Eucharist of the blood and the body of Christ is made, from which things the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they affirm that the flesh is incapable of receiving the gift of God, which is life eternal, which [flesh] is nourished from the body and blood of the Lord, and is a member of Him?—even as the blessed Paul declares in his Epistle to the Ephesians, that "we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones." He does not speak these words of some spiritual and invisible man, for a spirit has not bones nor flesh; but [he refers to] that dispensation [by which the Lord became] an actual man, consisting of flesh, and nerves, and bones,—that [flesh] which is nourished by the cup which is His blood, and receives increase from the bread which is His body. And just as a cutting from the vine planted in the ground fructifies in its season, or as a corn of wheat falling into the earth and becoming decomposed, rises with manifold increase by the Spirit of God, who contains all things, and then, through the wisdom of God, serves for the use of men, and having received the Word of God, becomes the Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Christ; so also our bodies, being nourished by it, and deposited in the earth, and suffering decomposition there, shall rise at their appointed time, the Word of God granting them resurrection to the glory of God.

When you start listening to the fathers on the 1000 year reign of Christ I'll start listening to them on the Eucharist:

Papias, Justin Martyr, Theophilus, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Caius according to Eusebius, Origin, Commodianus, Nepos accorinding to Dionysius of Alexandria, Victorinus, Methodius, Lactantius to name a few, believed in the Millennial reign of Christ

You CHERRY PICK what you want to believe in the Fathers, and misrepresent your position as one who follows their consensus, BUT want I should pay them heed, where they  contradict scripture?

Not going to happen.

Talking about cherry picking, your interpretation has one word literal, the next figurative, then its back to literal, all in the same sentence...and you fail to see how my objection to such absurd eisegesis is relevant?

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 (Joh 6:52-53 NKJ)

Christ demanded they eat His literal flesh, according to you. But Christ did not demand they kill him first, did He want they eat Him alive?

Then you say Christ meant the flesh He would give at Calvary...well then it was NOT the flesh Christ had when He spoke this, was it? It was a "future flesh" that had to be sacrificed to God in a particular way, was it not?

The real meaning of all this is figurative for true belief in Christ:

47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. (Joh 6:47 NKJ)

Everything in this context is figurative of genuine belief in Jesus as The Christ, the Son of the living God, and your joining these Jewish disciples in misinterpreting him is odd indeed, for a Christian.

Peter interpreted this for Christians:

67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 (Joh 6:67-69 NKJ)

Yes, I know you say its both real and figurative, but that violates an elementary fact, "A cannot be "A" and "Not A" at the same time.




« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 10:39:21 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1541 on: October 28, 2010, 10:25:06 PM »
The flaw in your response, Alfred, is that you are not Jesus.

Incorrect, My response didn't depend on my being Him.

Its common we born agains are dishonored just as Jesus and His apostles were, we expect it.

IT comes with the territory.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1542 on: October 28, 2010, 10:28:37 PM »
Alfred, if you are reading this. I think you may be possessed by a Demon. However, I mean that in the nicest possible way. :)

I, on the other hand, doubt very much that Alfred is possessed by a demon.  But it would not surprise me if he disagreed with me simply because I said so.

I expect to be dishonored, it comes with the territory:

 48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?"
 49 Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
 (Joh 8:48-49 NKJ)

1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:


21 Others said, "These are not the words of one who has a demon (Joh 10:21 NKJ)

There you go again, refusing to play by your own rules.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1543 on: October 28, 2010, 10:37:00 PM »
Alfred, if you are reading this. I think you may be possessed by a Demon. However, I mean that in the nicest possible way. :)

I, on the other hand, doubt very much that Alfred is possessed by a demon.  But it would not surprise me if he disagreed with me simply because I said so.

I expect to be dishonored, it comes with the territory:

 48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, "Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?"
 49 Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me.
 (Joh 8:48-49 NKJ)

1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:


21 Others said, "These are not the words of one who has a demon (Joh 10:21 NKJ)

There you go again, refusing to play by your own rules.

I never said I would play by your rules, and you don't know what mine are. Here are a couple of them:

 4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.
 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
 (Pro 26:4-5 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 11:01:39 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1544 on: October 28, 2010, 10:38:31 PM »
^ Forget that. Your services are urgently need in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30873.0.html
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 10:50:14 PM by tuesdayschild »

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1545 on: October 28, 2010, 10:42:20 PM »
Actually, when people are worried about you, it's no dishonor.. You can look that up.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1546 on: October 28, 2010, 10:45:19 PM »
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?

Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose. When you fight with him, it's a waste of bandwidth.

In the lady's defense, Alfred has already stated that he is an unapologetic fighter, after the manner of Christ and the apostles, and that he prefers a heated discussion.

Oh yes, it gives him a perverse pleasure. That does not mean we should participate in his destruction.

BTW...He may have a demon...................... not kidding.

After he said he either disliked, or had discomfort, or something about the Cross, I lean toward that possibility as well.

I am not trying to be too weird here, but there is such a thing. He has violent fantasies when he sees iconic images of the Lord and his Saints. He gets his jollies by fighting. He attacks The Church regularly. He sounds a bit down... Some other things

I am not suggesting his head spins and he spews green stuff. But once in a while we all can become open to attack by a demon or two. It doesn't make you a bad person, it just means you need to push back and resist egging on.

 Alfred, if you are reading this. I think you may be possessed by a Demon. However, I mean that in the nicest possible way. :)

So, less fighting on the Internet, more Jesus Prayer if you can manage it. It is Slavic in such situations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlFhybmvrY0&feature=related

    
Speaking as a moderator, I really am quite concerned by the depth of your speculation into Alfred's psychological/spiritual makeup. Feel free to argue against his interpretations of Scripture and to call into question his spotty church attendance, since this level of ad hominem is totally appropriate in that it challenges his authority to preach as he does. Speculating that he may be demon possessed, however, strikes me as being well beyond inappropriate, and then to tell him what you think about him on this Internet discussion board. What do you hope to contribute to this discussion by descending to such depths of ad hominem? It certainly does more to discredit you than to discredit him. I am therefore asking you to stop this line of argument now and to apologize to Alfred for being so personal in your assessment of him.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1547 on: October 28, 2010, 10:51:20 PM »
^ Forget that. Your services are urgently need in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30873.0.html

Unless he is joking, he needs professional help.

I think he is joking, hence I joked back.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 10:53:28 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1548 on: October 28, 2010, 11:09:00 PM »
^ Forget that. Your services are urgently need in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30873.0.html

Unless he is joking, he needs professional help.

I think he is joking, hence I joked back.


Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1549 on: October 29, 2010, 08:40:26 AM »
These are not the words of him that hath a devil.  (Joh 10:21 KJV)

Christ Himself stated what "eat my flesh...drink my blood" means:

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (Joh 6:30-35 KJV)

That this is Christ's meaning is confirmed by Peter's interpretation of Christ's words:


63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
 (Joh 6:63-69 KJV)

Compare Verse 63 with vvs 68f
" thou hast the words of eternal life" = " the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
 (Joh 6:69 KJV)

The flesh or covering of the Incarnate Christ profits nothing, believing (=ingesting) the truth about Him clothed by the flesh imparts eternal life.


Context confirms this, the theme throughout is believing in Christ, the symbols of flesh and blood are meant to convey one must ingest Christ entire, not just His fleshly outer appearance, but inner Spirit of life incarnate in the flesh, for eternal life:

24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You come here?"
 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,`He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
 40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
 41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says,`I have come down from heaven '?"
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
 47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 48 "I am the bread of life.
 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
 (Joh 6:23-71 NKJ)



It is unhistorical to presume Christ is speaking of the Eucharist, it didn't exist when Christ spoke these words, and He clearly expects these disciples understand His true meaning. That would be impossible if Christ is referring to the Eucharist.

 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

These ate of the loaves and fishes, and were satisfied yet were demanding greater signs of Christ's authority (John 6:26-28). Jesus questions if even an ascent into heaven would be enough for these to rightly interpret His words (vs 62). Any other Rabbi would have been given the benefit of the doubt when teaching a "hard saying", and its figurative sense would have been sought. But not these disciples, they were not of Christ's sheep:

 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
 (Joh 6:35-37 KJV)

Their insistence He spoke of cannibalism was an excuse to not believe.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 (Joh 6:41-45 KJV)

Christ gave them one last appeal to seek the correct interpretation of His words, expressly denying it meant eat His literal flesh, that would profit them nothing:

 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
 (Joh 6:63-65 KJV)

Speaking for the Twelve, Peter shows they do understand Christ's meaning:

 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
 (Joh 6:67-69 KJV)

Why would Christ speak this hard saying to them knowing it would stumble them?

 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 (Mat 13:10-15 KJV)

They were not His sheep.


 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
 (Joh 10:25-28 KJV)
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 08:46:18 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1550 on: October 29, 2010, 09:29:38 AM »
Christ instituted the Eucharist and St. Paul testifies to it in apostolic Christianity so all of reply #1459 is false preaching by one under severe delusion. I do not have time at work to post all the scripture you do but I will rest on John 6 & 1 Corinthians. You will continue to spew false theology; we obey the Lord. Traditionally Christians just partake of the Eucharist it was in the west that those with itchy ears started to reason in their minds as to rationally define the Eucharist and the culmination of that (I guess) is your incorrect preaching.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 09:37:46 AM by recent convert »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1551 on: October 29, 2010, 09:54:22 AM »
Christ instituted the Eucharist and St. Paul testifies to it in apostolic Christianity so all of reply #1459 is false preaching by one under severe delusion. I do not have time at work to post all the scripture you do but I will rest on John 6 & 1 Corinthians. You will continue to spew false theology; we obey the Lord. Traditionally Christians just partake of the Eucharist it was in the west that those with itchy ears started to reason in their minds as to rationally define the Eucharist and the culmination of that (I guess) is your incorrect preaching.

A text out of context becomes a pretext.

Christ is speaking to those who followed Him desiring more food. He is not teaching the Eucharist to those who are His sheep.

 25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
 26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
 (Joh 6:25-30 KJV)

John c. 6 is irrelevant to the Eucharist. Christ teaches His disciples the Eucharist on a later occasion, during the Passover:

17 Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, "Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?"
 18 And He said, "Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him,`The Teacher says, "My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples."'"
 19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.
 20 When evening had come, He sat down with the twelve.
 21 Now as they were eating, He said, "Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me."
 22 And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, "Lord, is it I?"
 23 He answered and said, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me.
 24 "The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
 25 Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, "Rabbi, is it I?" He said to him, "You have said it."
 26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body."
 27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
 28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."
 30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
 (Mat 26:17-30 NKJ)

This context is analogous to the Eucharist, it is not an explanation of it.

The imagery in both figuratively refer to ingesting true belief in the entire Christ, it is not an explanation of the Eucharist symbols. That exegesis would be unhistorical, the Eucharist came later during a completely unrelated event, to the exact opposite people. John 6 is a parable to UNBELIEVERS, The Eucharist is a teaching to BELIEVERS.


« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 10:26:16 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1552 on: October 29, 2010, 10:23:44 AM »
Hmm, wonder why it took so long for any of Christ's devoted followers to figure out that He didn't really mean what everyone, including the Apostles and those the Apostles taught, had thought He meant.  Glad you came along to enlighten us. :)
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1553 on: October 29, 2010, 10:30:43 AM »
Hmm, wonder why it took so long for any of Christ's devoted followers to figure out that He didn't really mean what everyone, including the Apostles and those the Apostles taught, had thought He meant.  Glad you came along to enlighten us. :)

The apostles never talk like you folks do, they refer to it as Christ meant it, a memorial...For example, Matthew shows the wine species remained wine even after its consecration by our Highest Priest:

 28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."
 (Mat 26:28-29 NKJ)

Paul reveals Christ spoke of this as a remembrance:

 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes.
 (1Co 11:24-26 NKJ)

A "remembrance" is NOT the thing being remembered.

If the later interpretation were correct---that the species actually becomes the body and blood of Christ, then verse 26 would read:

For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you experience the Lord till He comes.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 10:34:56 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1554 on: October 29, 2010, 10:53:31 AM »
First, why are you cross posting? http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30861.msg486709.html#msg486709

These are not the words of him that hath a devil.  (Joh 10:21 KJV)

Christ Himself stated what "eat my flesh...drink my blood" means:

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (Joh 6:30-35 KJV)

That this is Christ's meaning is confirmed by Peter's interpretation of Christ's words:


63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
 (Joh 6:63-69 KJV)

Compare Verse 63 with vvs 68f
" thou hast the words of eternal life" = " the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
 (Joh 6:69 KJV)

The flesh or covering of the Incarnate Christ profits nothing, believing (=ingesting) the truth about Him clothed by the flesh imparts eternal life.


Context confirms this, the theme throughout is believing in Christ, the symbols of flesh and blood are meant to convey one must ingest Christ entire, not just His fleshly outer appearance, but inner Spirit of life incarnate in the flesh, for eternal life:

24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You come here?"
 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,`He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
 40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
 41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says,`I have come down from heaven '?"
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
 47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 48 "I am the bread of life.
 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
 (Joh 6:23-71 NKJ)



It is unhistorical to presume Christ is speaking of the Eucharist, it didn't exist when Christ spoke these words, and He clearly expects these disciples understand His true meaning. That would be impossible if Christ is referring to the Eucharist.

 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

These ate of the loaves and fishes, and were satisfied yet were demanding greater signs of Christ's authority (John 6:26-28). Jesus questions if even an ascent into heaven would be enough for these to rightly interpret His words (vs 62). Any other Rabbi would have been given the benefit of the doubt when teaching a "hard saying", and its figurative sense would have been sought. But not these disciples, they were not of Christ's sheep:

 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
 (Joh 6:35-37 KJV)

Their insistence He spoke of cannibalism was an excuse to not believe.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 (Joh 6:41-45 KJV)

Christ gave them one last appeal to seek the correct interpretation of His words, expressly denying it meant eat His literal flesh, that would profit them nothing:

 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
 (Joh 6:63-65 KJV)

Speaking for the Twelve, Peter shows they do understand Christ's meaning:

 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
 (Joh 6:67-69 KJV)

Why would Christ speak this hard saying to them knowing it would stumble them?

 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 (Mat 13:10-15 KJV)

They were not His sheep.


 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
 (Joh 10:25-28 KJV)



The Synoptics are clear and in agreement with one another:
Quote
Matt. 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Quote
Mark 14:22  And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Quote
Luke 22:19  And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

This is the tradition that St. Paul draws from:
Quote
1 Cor. 11:23-24  For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Do you think you understand the Gospel better than St. Paul does?

I am aware of the issue you make of the word remembrance:
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance (ἀνάμνησιν) of Me." (1Co 11:24 NKJ)

ἀνάμνησιν denotes "a remembering," a memory of Christ's body is NOT Christ's body.
But eating in memory of Christ's Person (i.e. "Me," therefore, NOT in memory of Christ's body alone) does not speak to the Orthodox understanding of "memory," nor does it take Christ at His Word.  (I will let someone else address "memory" and "remembrance" in the context of Orthodox tradition.)

To follow you, Alfred, into twisting the plain reading of Scripture according to your own tradition rather than that of the Apostles and Evangelists, one would have to read "Take, eat; this is my body" and pervert it into "Take, eat; this is NOT my body." 

I don't have that level of editorial discretion, but apparently you think that you do.

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1555 on: October 29, 2010, 11:00:01 AM »
A "remembrance" is NOT the thing being remembered.

If it were remembrance by man alone, I might agree.  But it is remembrance in the power and grace of the Holy Spirit in the context of the Kingdom of God in the celebration of the Divine Liturgy, and, thus, something much more substantial than you are able to grasp today.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1556 on: October 29, 2010, 11:05:08 AM »
I don't think he is aware that the Liturgy of St James also exists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_St_James

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1557 on: October 29, 2010, 11:23:03 AM »
The Synoptics are clear and in agreement with one another:
Quote
Matt. 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Quote
Mark 14:22  And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Quote
Luke 22:19  And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

This is the tradition that St. Paul draws from:
Quote
1 Cor. 11:23-24  For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Do you think you understand the Gospel better than St. Paul does?

I agree with Paul, you do not.

There aren't two bodies and bloods of Christ. He is still using His body and blood when He says "This is my body...my blood." They obviously, literally speaking, were not His literal body and blood as you insist. They cannot be, He gave it to them using the hand still connected to His literal body.


He calls it the "blood of the covenant," that didn't exist till Calvary. It didn't become the blood of the covenant UNTIL it was sacrificed.

THEREFORE Christ is  speaking figuratively, the wine remained the fruit of the vine, precisely as He says:

28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."
 (Mat 26:28-29 NKJ)

AND Paul's saying this is a "remembrance" is 100% correct, a memory is NOT the thing being remembered.



I am aware of the issue you make of the word remembrance:
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance (ἀνάμνησιν) of Me." (1Co 11:24 NKJ)

ἀνάμνησιν denotes "a remembering," a memory of Christ's body is NOT Christ's body.
But eating in memory of Christ's Person (i.e. "Me," therefore, NOT in memory of Christ's body alone) does not speak to the Orthodox understanding of "memory," nor does it take Christ at His Word.  (I will let someone else address "memory" and "remembrance" in the context of Orthodox tradition.)

To follow you, Alfred, into twisting the plain reading of Scripture according to your own tradition rather than that of the Apostles and Evangelists, one would have to read "Take, eat; this is my body" and pervert it into "Take, eat; this is NOT my body."  

I don't have that level of editorial discretion, but apparently you think that you do.

Your confused response on this is telling, it does speak to it, a memory is NOT thing being remembered, we do not eat the species "in experience of" Christ's flesh and blood, but in "remembrance of it."
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 11:24:18 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1558 on: October 29, 2010, 11:29:49 AM »
A "remembrance" is NOT the thing being remembered.

If it were remembrance by man alone, I might agree.  But it is remembrance in the power and grace of the Holy Spirit in the context of the Kingdom of God in the celebration of the Divine Liturgy, and, thus, something much more substantial than you are able to grasp today.


Christ is standing there, still using His body with its blood, giving them bread and wine, and says eat this "in remembrance of me."

As it is impossible there is another body and blood of Christ lurking around, or was created while Christ did this, Christ must have been speaking figuratively.

Paul confirms this, its "in remembrance" of Christ's flesh and blood, not "in experience" of His flesh and blood.

As for the power of your Divine Liturgy, you have no proof of it. None of you do the signs that identify an apostle of Christ, like raising the dead etc:

 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds. (2Co 12:12 NKJ)

When I asked for proof your tradition + Scripture is superior to sola scriptura & interpreting it in context, you failed to show where ambiguity is resolved by your tradition, that completely agrees with the grammar and syntax, that normal exegesis couldn't do.

on the contrary, I can resolve ambiguity via sound hermeneutic and sola scriptura, in the texts your tradition concedes are too obscure to interpret.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 11:39:43 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1559 on: October 29, 2010, 11:31:12 AM »
tuesdayschild, I don't think Alfred is cross-posting - looks like the mods may be splitting some of this off into another thread & perhaps aren't done yet.  :)
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Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1560 on: October 29, 2010, 11:41:32 AM »
tuesdayschild, I don't think Alfred is cross-posting - looks like the mods may be splitting some of this off into another thread & perhaps aren't done yet.  :)

I have never seen them leave two identical posts in two different threads when they have made a split.  But you may be correct.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1561 on: October 29, 2010, 11:41:44 AM »
Why are you all arguing this the way you have been, as if we only have animal senses? The True Presence cannot be argued as if it is a subject for scientific analysis. That is a severely limited mode of thinking. There are two points of view here. First, that of the the Lord who said clearly that the bread and wine are His body and blood and unless we eat them, we have no life. It is strictly our problem, not His, when we do not experience it the way the Lord described it. So, the second point of view is ours--how we experience and describe our eating of the bread/body and wine/blood. If we use only our physical senses, it would be true to say that the bread tastes like bread and the wine tastes like wine (I can't fathom this grape juice nonsense). However, like Peggy Lee sang, is that all there is? Are we simply bone, muscles, organs, nerves, etc.? Don't we have a soul? Are we mere animals (in which case the atheists have won) or are we not primarily a spiritual being living inside a physical body? I don't know about you but I experience Holy Communion with both of my natures; one tastes bread and wine but the other tastes His body and blood.

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1562 on: October 29, 2010, 11:46:33 AM »
The Synoptics are clear and in agreement with one another:
Quote
Matt. 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Quote
Mark 14:22  And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Quote
Luke 22:19  And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

This is the tradition that St. Paul draws from:
Quote
1 Cor. 11:23-24  For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Do you think you understand the Gospel better than St. Paul does?

I agree with Paul, you do not.

There aren't two bodies and bloods of Christ. He is still using His body and blood when He says "This is my body...my blood." They obviously, literally speaking, were not His literal body and blood as you insist. They cannot be, He gave it to them using the hand still connected to His literal body.



Obviously, literally speaking, Christ is standing there saying, "This is My body."

So it is.

So says St. Paul.

So say we all.

Except you.

And Zwingli.

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1563 on: October 29, 2010, 11:48:41 AM »
Why are you all arguing this the way you have been, as if we only have animal senses? The True Presence cannot be argued as if it is a subject for scientific analysis. That is a severely limited mode of thinking.

Just trying to meet Alfred where he is.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1564 on: October 29, 2010, 11:50:44 AM »
tuesdayschild, I don't think Alfred is cross-posting - looks like the mods may be splitting some of this off into another thread & perhaps aren't done yet.  :)

It was his idea to have two threads, not mine.

I prefer the discussion remain here...


Its here I was accused of being demon possessed. My scriptural responses to the traditions of the Orthodox, proves the charge false.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1565 on: October 29, 2010, 11:54:12 AM »
The Synoptics are clear and in agreement with one another:
Quote
Matt. 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Quote
Mark 14:22  And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Quote
Luke 22:19  And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

This is the tradition that St. Paul draws from:
Quote
1 Cor. 11:23-24  For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Do you think you understand the Gospel better than St. Paul does?

I agree with Paul, you do not.

There aren't two bodies and bloods of Christ. He is still using His body and blood when He says "This is my body...my blood." They obviously, literally speaking, were not His literal body and blood as you insist. They cannot be, He gave it to them using the hand still connected to His literal body.



Obviously, literally speaking, Christ is standing there saying, "This is My body."

So it is.

So says St. Paul.

So say we all.

Except you.

And Zwingli.

You are begging the question, in reply to you I noted there are NOT two bodies and bloods of Christ.

Two bodies and bloods of Christ are required for Him to BOTH stand there in His body with its blood, and give them His body and blood to drink.

If what was in the up was His blood, what was in His body being pumped by His heart?

If the bread became His body, what was the hand He used to break the bread, connected to?

You didn't answer that question, you "evaded it" with ad hominem and begging the question.

Focus. You suppose you are able to address these issues, now its time to show you really are.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 11:56:56 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1566 on: October 29, 2010, 12:00:10 PM »
I don't think you're demon-possessed, Alfred.

Wrong, but not demon-possessed. ;)
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Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1567 on: October 29, 2010, 12:10:50 PM »
The Synoptics are clear and in agreement with one another:
Quote
Matt. 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Quote
Mark 14:22  And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Quote
Luke 22:19  And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

This is the tradition that St. Paul draws from:
Quote
1 Cor. 11:23-24  For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Do you think you understand the Gospel better than St. Paul does?

I agree with Paul, you do not.

There aren't two bodies and bloods of Christ. He is still using His body and blood when He says "This is my body...my blood." They obviously, literally speaking, were not His literal body and blood as you insist. They cannot be, He gave it to them using the hand still connected to His literal body.



Obviously, literally speaking, Christ is standing there saying, "This is My body."

So it is.

So says St. Paul.

So say we all.

Except you.

And Zwingli.

You are begging the question, in reply to you I noted there are NOT two bodies and bloods of Christ.

Two would be required for Him to stand there with His disciples, pour out wine into cups, break bread, and hand them both to drink.

If that was His body and blood, what was He in while speaking to them?

You didn't answer that question, you "evaded it" with ad hominem and begging the question.

Focus. You suppose you are able to address these issue, now its time to show you really are.


Why, Alfred, I am believing the Word, plain and simple, and rejecting your attempt to interpret it for me according to mere human understanding and your own traditions.  I feel no need to explain how Christ can stand there and truthfully call bread His body any more than I feel the need to explain how the bread of the Eucharist becomes His body and is "ever eaten yet never consumed."  If that bothers you, feel free to ignore me.

There is no ad hominem fallacy in what I wrote above. Simply disagreeing with you is not a fallacy.

Focus thyself.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 12:24:02 PM by tuesdayschild »

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1568 on: October 29, 2010, 12:23:05 PM »
The Synoptics are clear and in agreement with one another:
Quote
Matt. 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Quote
Mark 14:22  And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Quote
Luke 22:19  And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

This is the tradition that St. Paul draws from:
Quote
1 Cor. 11:23-24  For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Do you think you understand the Gospel better than St. Paul does?

I agree with Paul, you do not.

There aren't two bodies and bloods of Christ. He is still using His body and blood when He says "This is my body...my blood." They obviously, literally speaking, were not His literal body and blood as you insist. They cannot be, He gave it to them using the hand still connected to His literal body.



Obviously, literally speaking, Christ is standing there saying, "This is My body."

So it is.

So says St. Paul.

So say we all.

Except you.

And Zwingli.

You are begging the question, in reply to you I noted there are NOT two bodies and bloods of Christ.

Two bodies and bloods of Christ are required for Him to BOTH stand there in His body with its blood, and give them His body and blood to drink.

If what was in the up was His blood, what was in His body being pumped by His heart?

If the bread became His body, what was the hand He used to break the bread, connected to?

You didn't answer that question, you "evaded it" with ad hominem and begging the question.

Focus. You suppose you are able to address these issues, now its time to show you really are.


No one is evading you. Just as there are two elements to man; body and soul there are two elements present in the Eucharist. One is spiritual agreement or knowledge as you suggest and the other is the church which he poured out for many aka communion. This my friend is a mystery beyond comprehension and only those with a clean heart and divine revelation can see. Those that god has deemed worthy.

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1569 on: October 29, 2010, 12:51:51 PM »
tuesdayschild, I don't think Alfred is cross-posting - looks like the mods may be splitting some of this off into another thread & perhaps aren't done yet.  :)

It was his idea to have two threads, not mine.

I prefer the discussion remain here...

Actually, no, it was not my idea to have two threads. Once again, you must have me confused with another member here. Focus, Alfred. Focus.

Its here I was accused of being demon possessed. My scriptural responses to the traditions of the Orthodox, proves the charge false.

No, a moderator warned us to stop speculating. Then you quoted some Scripture.

As I recall from the account of the Lord's temptation in the desert, Satan is pretty quick to quote Scripture, too. But this does not mean I think you are demon-possessed. I think you are in possession of your own faculties and wholly responsible for everything you post here. And that amuses me.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1570 on: October 29, 2010, 02:06:52 PM »
Personally I am begiinning to think this type of lecturing & false preaching has cult like craving.
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1571 on: October 29, 2010, 02:30:25 PM »
Hmm, wonder why it took so long for any of Christ's devoted followers to figure out that He didn't really mean what everyone, including the Apostles and those the Apostles taught, had thought He meant.  Glad you came along to enlighten us. :)

The apostles never talk like you folks do, they refer to it as Christ meant it, a memorial...For example, Matthew shows the wine species remained wine even after its consecration by our Highest Priest:

 28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."
 (Mat 26:28-29 NKJ)

Paul reveals Christ spoke of this as a remembrance:

 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death till He comes.
 (1Co 11:24-26 NKJ)

A "remembrance" is NOT the thing being remembered.

If the later interpretation were correct---that the species actually becomes the body and blood of Christ, then verse 26 would read:

For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you experience the Lord till He comes.


Do you know the original Greek that English translators rendered as "remembrance"--anamnesis? Is it possible that the original Greek definition of this concept of "anamnesis" was much stronger than our current English definition? Please don't rely solely on what you take the reading of the plain text of the English translation to mean, for the Apostles never spoke English.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 02:31:02 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1572 on: October 29, 2010, 03:09:26 PM »
The Synoptics are clear and in agreement with one another:
Quote
Matt. 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Quote
Mark 14:22  And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Quote
Luke 22:19  And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

This is the tradition that St. Paul draws from:
Quote
1 Cor. 11:23-24  For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Do you think you understand the Gospel better than St. Paul does?

I agree with Paul, you do not.

There aren't two bodies and bloods of Christ. He is still using His body and blood when He says "This is my body...my blood." They obviously, literally speaking, were not His literal body and blood as you insist. They cannot be, He gave it to them using the hand still connected to His literal body.



Obviously, literally speaking, Christ is standing there saying, "This is My body."

So it is.

So says St. Paul.

So say we all.

Except you.

And Zwingli.

You are begging the question, in reply to you I noted there are NOT two bodies and bloods of Christ.

Two would be required for Him to stand there with His disciples, pour out wine into cups, break bread, and hand them both to drink.

If that was His body and blood, what was He in while speaking to them?

You didn't answer that question, you "evaded it" with ad hominem and begging the question.

Focus. You suppose you are able to address these issue, now its time to show you really are.


Why, Alfred, I am believing the Word, plain and simple, and rejecting your attempt to interpret it for me according to mere human understanding and your own traditions.  I feel no need to explain how Christ can stand there and truthfully call bread His body any more than I feel the need to explain how the bread of the Eucharist becomes His body and is "ever eaten yet never consumed."  If that bothers you, feel free to ignore me.

There is no ad hominem fallacy in what I wrote above. Simply disagreeing with you is not a fallacy.

Focus thyself.

Its called apologetic, you make a claim, then support it with reasons why its correct. If you don't want to engage in apologetics, just say so, I won't bother responding to your claims. But if you want to make claims, and then prove they are correct, you gotta focus.

When I respond to your reasons for a claim, showing they are wrong,  that's not the time to "clam up" and accuse me of being possessed. That's the time to examine my reply, and find the weakness in my counter argument, if any.

At the core of Orthodox doctrine on the Eucharist, is the basic premise John c. 6 is the Eucharist Christ later taught His disciples.

That is not correct. While similar in imagery and meaning, i.e., analogous that does not make John c. 6 "the Eucharist" or an "explanation of the Eucharist".


Just as "body and blood" in the Eucharist symbolize Christ entire, so also flesh and blood in John c. 6. But one is not an explanation of the other, as though this explains what the bread becomes in the Eucharist.

The reason why this can't be the explanation of the Eucharist, is Christ didn't say it is, neither do the apostles.

They speak of the Eucharist separately, you don't hear anyone explain "body = flesh" and allude to John c. 6.  The Eucharist was taught to disciples, the flesh and blood of John c. 6 is a parable, taught to those who weren't Christ's disciples in truth...and like false disciples, they betrayed Him.

So the imagery, the analogy, is strong, but the contexts are being misused, they are not to be conflated as though this proves one is eating the literal flesh when they eat the Eucharist. That is NOT what this context is saying at all.

Find an apostle linking both contexts together, as you do, then you prove your point. Otherwise these are two separate events, similar in meaning, but one is NOT the explanation of the other.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 03:22:26 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1573 on: October 29, 2010, 03:51:55 PM »
You have to read the whole paragraph.

John 6:30-66 (King James Version)

 30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

 31Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

 32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

 33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

 34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

 47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

 48I am that bread of life.

 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

 52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

 58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

 59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

 60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

 61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

 62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

 65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1574 on: October 29, 2010, 03:57:53 PM »
1 Cor 10:16
    The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? :o