Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 197079 times)

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Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1485 on: October 27, 2010, 10:10:59 PM »
If these Jews had murdered Christ, ate His flesh literally, how would they be dwelling in Him.

It seems He would be in their stomachs.

Yeah, that would be gross.  But it still doesn't invalidate what Christ Himself said.  

Correct, it doesn't invalidate what Christ said.

It invalidates what YOU said, that this is all literal.



That would be opinion, dear Alfred.  You're just going in circles.  My previous post showed how Christ quite clearly said it was quite really (:))his flesh and blood that He was speaking of.  Your world view wants to use one verse to negate the previous several verses, to make it symbolic.  That's fine, if that's what works for you in your church, but it's not what the Orthodox have always believed and practiced.  
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 10:12:03 PM by Thankful »

Offline DennyB

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1486 on: October 27, 2010, 10:14:07 PM »
Obviously, Jesus is not saying, 'My flesh profits nothing'.

What He is referring to are those who petition Him, "Lord, give us this bread always" (verse 34)

Incorrect, you have us jumping over the context to verse 34, rather the referent is "eats my flesh" in verse 56, and THAT "hard saying" is carried forward by the "this" in vss 58, 60, 61.

56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 (Joh 6:56-63 NKJ)

"The flesh profits nothing" is referring to their objection to "eat my flesh", therefore Christ is saying literally eating it profits nothing.

This is confirmed by "it is the Spirit who gives life," that refers to the blood in the context, "the life of the flesh is in the blood" (cp Gen 9:4, Lev 17:11 &c.)
One must believe Christ is the bread that came down  from Heaven, the incarnate Son of God, to have life in themselves. This inner life of Christ, clothed in the flesh, is what gives eternal life. Eating his literal flesh would profit them nothing.

That belief in Jesus as God the Son is what they must ingest for eternal life, is clear in context:

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 (Joh 6:63-69 NKJ)

Peter and his fellow disciples understood, they weren't like the unbelievers, they believed Jesus' claims of divinity, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

If Jesus was saying "there are some of you who don't believe you must eat my literal flesh," then Peter's response is inexplicable, babbling, completely off topic. Then Christ is looking for belief in cannibalism, and Peter is babbling about His Deity.

As it is impossible Peter didn't understand Christ, but the unbelieving Jews who deserted Him did, your interpretation fails.


As for your last, "bread" is FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE, not proving your point these words are meant literally.

AND the fact Christ says His flesh will be given for the life of the world, PROVES He didn't mean they should eat it then, preventing it being given.



If we are to hold to your interpretation,then there was no need for Jesus to use such literal language to explain  simple belief, your stance is an empty cistern.

What literal language, this:

 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." (Joh 6:58 NKJ)

Was Jesus talking about literal bread, that  you could bake or boil etc like manna from heaven?

Why do You keep thinking with this analytical,rational mindset. Of course He wasn't taking about THIS kind of bread. He is speaking about UNION with himself,being the GOD-MAN. The Eucharist is an expression of this union.

Offline JLatimer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1487 on: October 27, 2010, 10:18:42 PM »
Then Christ is looking for belief in cannibalism, and Peter is babbling about His Deity.

Rather, Christ is looking for belief in His Deity, and you are babbling about cannibalism.

AND the fact Christ says His flesh will be given for the life of the world, PROVES He didn't mean they should eat it then, preventing it being given.

That makes zero sense. Seriously, I don't even understand what you are trying to say. How on earth does eating it prevent it being given?

In any case, please do not respond to posts responding to one of your posts by modifying your original post. It makes it impossible to keep track of the flow of the conversation.

I never claimed the referent of "this" was in verse 34. You aren't even trying to actually listen to or understand me, which is fine; but do at least try to listen to and understand the Scriptures.

Then Christ is looking for belief in cannibalism, and Peter is babbling about His Deity.

Rather, Christ is looking for belief in His Deity, and you are babbling about cannibalism.

AND the fact Christ says His flesh will be given for the life of the world, PROVES He didn't mean they should eat it then, preventing it being given.

That makes zero sense. Seriously, I don't even understand what you are trying to say. How on earth does eating it prevent it being given?

In any case, please do not respond to posts responding to one of your posts by modifying your original post. It makes it impossible to keep track of the flow of the conversation.

THIS has a referent, and its not in verse 34

I never claimed the referent of "this" was in verse 34. 

its in verse 56 as I proved.

I never had any argument with your contention that "this" refers to "eats my flesh". Seems right to me.

My point is exactly that "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him" is a hard saying, one which you refuse to accept, because you cannot comprehend how the Lord Jesus Christ could be referring to anything other than believing His teachings on the one hand, or cannibalism on the other.

 focus please.

I am focussed - on Christ.

To understand the Scriptures, you have to read them as a whole; moreover, you have to read them with the mind of Christ, which belongs to the Church. You are proving again and again that you do not have this Mind, but rather a carnal mind.

You want Jesus to be saying something which He is clearly NOT saying, namely, that His Flesh profits nothing. That is your blasphemy. Defend it. The surrounding verses, the entire chapter, the Gospel, the New Testament, the Bible as a whole - at every level of context the Scriptures stand against you.

God's Flesh profits everything.
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1488 on: October 27, 2010, 10:18:50 PM »
If these Jews had murdered Christ, ate His flesh literally, how would they be dwelling in Him.

It seems He would be in their stomachs.

Yeah, that would be gross.  But it still doesn't invalidate what Christ Himself said.  

Correct, it doesn't invalidate what Christ said.

It invalidates what YOU said, that this is all literal.



That would be opinion, dear Alfred.  You're just going in circles.  My previous post showed how Christ quite clearly said it was quite really (:))his flesh and blood that He was speaking of.  Your world view wants to use one verse to negate the previous several verses, to make it symbolic.  That's fine, if that's what works for you in your church, but it's not what the Orthodox have always believed and practiced.  

You have no sound reason to understand "flesh" literally, but not the actual eating of it.

If Christ didn't want them to actually murder and eat Him, then neither does He want us to.

Therefore the entire text is figurative, or as Christ said it:

The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)

How can words be spirit and life? Not literally, words are words.

Only because the words are figurative, referring to teaching that leads to one receiving the Holy Spirit and Eternal life, that is the ONLY way words can be spirit and life.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1489 on: October 27, 2010, 10:22:56 PM »
Obviously, Jesus is not saying, 'My flesh profits nothing'.

What He is referring to are those who petition Him, "Lord, give us this bread always" (verse 34)

Incorrect, you have us jumping over the context to verse 34, rather the referent is "eats my flesh" in verse 56, and THAT "hard saying" is carried forward by the "this" in vss 58, 60, 61.

56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 (Joh 6:56-63 NKJ)

"The flesh profits nothing" is referring to their objection to "eat my flesh", therefore Christ is saying literally eating it profits nothing.

This is confirmed by "it is the Spirit who gives life," that refers to the blood in the context, "the life of the flesh is in the blood" (cp Gen 9:4, Lev 17:11 &c.)
One must believe Christ is the bread that came down  from Heaven, the incarnate Son of God, to have life in themselves. This inner life of Christ, clothed in the flesh, is what gives eternal life. Eating his literal flesh would profit them nothing.

That belief in Jesus as God the Son is what they must ingest for eternal life, is clear in context:

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 (Joh 6:63-69 NKJ)

Peter and his fellow disciples understood, they weren't like the unbelievers, they believed Jesus' claims of divinity, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

If Jesus was saying "there are some of you who don't believe you must eat my literal flesh," then Peter's response is inexplicable, babbling, completely off topic. Then Christ is looking for belief in cannibalism, and Peter is babbling about His Deity.

As it is impossible Peter didn't understand Christ, but the unbelieving Jews who deserted Him did, your interpretation fails.


As for your last, "bread" is FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE, not proving your point these words are meant literally.

AND the fact Christ says His flesh will be given for the life of the world, PROVES He didn't mean they should eat it then, preventing it being given.



If we are to hold to your interpretation,then there was no need for Jesus to use such literal language to explain  simple belief, your stance is an empty cistern.

What literal language, this:

 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." (Joh 6:58 NKJ)

Was Jesus talking about literal bread, that  you could bake or boil etc like manna from heaven?

Why do You keep thinking with this analytical,rational mindset. Of course He wasn't taking about THIS kind of bread. He is speaking about UNION with himself,being the GOD-MAN. The Eucharist is an expression of this union.

You can't arbitrarily pick one word as literal, when the entire phrase its in, is figurative.

You must be consistent, either Christ meant it literally, or He did not.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline JLatimer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1490 on: October 27, 2010, 10:25:18 PM »
Was Jesus talking about literal bread, that you could bake or boil
or use 5 loaves to feed 5 thousand... 

oh... wait... that's right, I forgot.
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1491 on: October 27, 2010, 10:27:23 PM »
You have no sound reason to understand "flesh" literally, but not the actual eating of it.

If Christ didn't want them to actually murder and eat Him, then neither does He want us to.

Therefore the entire text is figurative, or as Christ said it:

The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)

How can words be spirit and life? Not literally, words are words.

Only because the words are figurative, referring to teaching that leads to one receiving the Holy Spirit and Eternal life, that is the ONLY way words can be spirit and life.



::)  You're really stretching, Alfred.  How can it be "clear" when it's only clear to you, but to everyone else here these verses are saying something else?  


To understand the Scriptures, you have to read them as a whole; moreover, you have to read them with the mind of Christ, which belongs to the Church. You are proving again and again that you do not have this Mind, but rather a carnal mind.


Where's the thumbs-up smiley?  ;)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 10:28:11 PM by Thankful »

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1492 on: October 27, 2010, 10:30:37 PM »
Actually both are needed. We are both physical and a spiritual beings. If what you say is true than why be baptize physically as Christ commanded? Could we not just be cleansed in our hearts? ;)

Your analogy fails as we can get the benefit of baptism, without literal baptism:

"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Act 10:47 NKJ)

But we are baptized to fulfill all righteousness:

But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. (Mat 3:15 NKJ)

I'm not suggesting we dispense with the Eucharist, I am discussing what Christ meant it to be.

Jesus expressly says eating His literal flesh profits nothing, removing all reason for us to believe the species becomes literal flesh in any fashion.

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)


Then Baptism becomes a superfluous act. Christ would not institute something that has no bearing on either one's life or Salvation.

Did this baptism have a bearing on Christ's salvation?

14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.
 (Mat 3:14-15 NKJ)

If the archetype for the entire church, does not bear on Christ's salvation, then how does it bear on ours, it being from the original.

Christ had no need of salvation. Why would you even ask a ridiculous question like that?  ::)

Christ's baptism is ontologically different from our baptism. Christ was not a sinner baptized in the Name of the Trinity for the forgiveness of his sins. It was a Jewish ritual which was performed by other people besides John. Christ's baptism, the Holy Theophany, was a revelation of the Trinity, in Whose Name true Baptism would be given.

At the Glorious Ascension, baptism was reappropriated by Christ as a means of forgiveness of sins and grafting into His Body, the Church.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 10:31:58 PM by bogdan »

Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1493 on: October 27, 2010, 10:35:17 PM »
You can't arbitrarily pick one word as literal, when the entire phrase its in, is figurative.

You must be consistent, either Christ meant it literally, or He did not.

But you can arbitrarily pick out one verse as figurative when the entire context its in is literal? Huh.  Methinks your rules favor one certain person in this thread.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 10:56:58 PM by Thankful »

Offline JLatimer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1494 on: October 27, 2010, 10:35:41 PM »
You can't arbitrarily pick one word as literal, when the entire phrase its in, is figurative.

You must be consistent, either Christ meant it literally, or He did not.

You think that everything has to be "literal" in a carnal, worldly sense or "figurative", because your fleshy rational mind cannot comprehend the mystery of God's Incarnation.

 What we are trying to get you to see is that Christ's words in John 6 are both literal, in the sense that His Flesh is real Flesh, and spiritual, in the sense that the miracle of the Eucharist cannot be understood in normal, worldly (what you call "literal") terms. In other words, He meant it literally, but not the way you mean it.
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline authio

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1495 on: October 27, 2010, 10:36:10 PM »

How can words be spirit and life? Not literally, words are words.

Only because the words are figurative, referring to teaching that leads to one receiving the Holy Spirit and Eternal life, that is the ONLY way words can be spirit and life.



This sounds like a book I read in college.  Let me quote it for a parallel:

"We know that a text consists not of a line of words, releasing a single 'theological' meaning (the 'message' of the Author-God), but of a multi-dimensional space in which are married  and contested several writings, none of which is original: the text is a fabric of quotations, resulting from a thousand sources of culture" (Barthes 1989: 52-53).

In other words, take something out of context and it makes no sense, because all language requires context.  Please stay in context:  this thread is about a new member proselytizing to an Orthodox Christian forum, and the Orthodox Christians rebutting him.  The forum will remain Orthodox Christian irregardless of the outcome.


To understand the Scriptures, you have to read them as a whole; moreover, you have to read them with the mind of Christ, which belongs to the Church. You are proving again and again that you do not have this Mind, but rather a carnal mind.


Where's the thumbs-up smiley?  ;)

Ditto.  8)
Christ is risen!
Cristo ha resucitado!
Христос Воскресе!
Χριστός Ανέστη!
 المسيح قام

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1496 on: October 27, 2010, 10:43:29 PM »
You can't arbitrarily pick one word as literal, when the entire phrase its in, is figurative.

You must be consistent, either Christ meant it literally, or He did not.

You think that everything has to be "literal" in a carnal, worldly sense or "figurative", because your fleshy rational mind cannot comprehend the mystery of God's Incarnation.

 What we are trying to get you to see is that Christ's words in John 6 are both literal, in the sense that His Flesh is real Flesh, and spiritual, in the sense that the miracle of the Eucharist cannot be understood in normal, worldly (what you call "literal") terms. In other words, He meant it literally, but not the way you mean it.

It is abundantly clear that Alfred's "God" is in a box precisely the size of Alfred's cranium.

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1497 on: October 27, 2010, 10:57:26 PM »
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline JLatimer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1498 on: October 27, 2010, 11:08:22 PM »
Quote from: John 3:3-6 (KJV)
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. [4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Quote from: 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 (KJV)
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discerned. [15] But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. [16] For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Quote from: 1 Corinthians 15:39-50 (KJV)
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. [40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. [41] There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. [42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: [44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. [45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. [48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. [49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1499 on: October 28, 2010, 03:21:05 AM »
Actually both are needed. We are both physical and a spiritual beings. If what you say is true than why be baptize physically as Christ commanded? Could we not just be cleansed in our hearts? ;)

Your analogy fails as we can get the benefit of baptism, without literal baptism:

"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Act 10:47 NKJ)

But we are baptized to fulfill all righteousness:

But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. (Mat 3:15 NKJ)

I'm not suggesting we dispense with the Eucharist, I am discussing what Christ meant it to be.

Jesus expressly says eating His literal flesh profits nothing, removing all reason for us to believe the species becomes literal flesh in any fashion.

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)


Then Baptism becomes a superfluous act. Christ would not institute something that has no bearing on either one's life or Salvation.

Did this baptism have a bearing on Christ's salvation?

14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.
 (Mat 3:14-15 NKJ)

If the archetype for the entire church, does not bear on Christ's salvation, then how does it bear on ours, it being from the original.

Christ had no need of salvation. Why would you even ask a ridiculous question like that?  ::)

Christ's baptism is ontologically different from our baptism. Christ was not a sinner baptized in the Name of the Trinity for the forgiveness of his sins. It was a Jewish ritual which was performed by other people besides John. Christ's baptism, the Holy Theophany, was a revelation of the Trinity, in Whose Name true Baptism would be given.

At the Glorious Ascension, baptism was reappropriated by Christ as a means of forgiveness of sins and grafting into His Body, the Church.

List the precise properties of Christ's baptism that makes it ontologically different than other baptism.

And answer if Christ' baptism is true, then ours must be false?

While it may be your tradition that baptism is for salvation, that isn't apostolic doctrine:

"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 (Act 10:47 NKJ)

There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

IN a baptism of repentance, the answer of a good conscience, that repents of sin and believes in the LORD Jesus Christ, that is what saves.

Unbelief in the Gospel of Christ is the only ground for condemnation (John 3:18, 36; Mark 16:15,16; Rom 10:9-12; Eph 4:18; 2 Pet 2:3,4; 1 John 4:3), not lack of baptism.

To label Christ's baptism a "Jewish ceremony" unlike Christian baptism is to imply its inferior somehow to ours, but Christ said it fulfilled all righteousness, and clearly it lacked nothing in the way of Spirit:

14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.
 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
 (Mat 3:14-17 NKJ)

There isn't one kind of baptism for Christ and another for us:

one Lord, one faith, one baptism; (Eph 4:5 NKJ)

There is only One body and we are all baptized into it, Christ is this body, therefore His baptism is NOT ontologically different than ours:

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:13 NKJ)

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. (1Co 12:27 NKJ)

Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 03:30:48 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1500 on: October 28, 2010, 03:36:54 AM »

How can words be spirit and life? Not literally, words are words.

Only because the words are figurative, referring to teaching that leads to one receiving the Holy Spirit and Eternal life, that is the ONLY way words can be spirit and life.



This sounds like a book I read in college.  Let me quote it for a parallel:

"We know that a text consists not of a line of words, releasing a single 'theological' meaning (the 'message' of the Author-God), but of a multi-dimensional space in which are married  and contested several writings, none of which is original: the text is a fabric of quotations, resulting from a thousand sources of culture" (Barthes 1989: 52-53).

In other words, take something out of context and it makes no sense, because all language requires context.  Please stay in context:  this thread is about a new member proselytizing to an Orthodox Christian forum, and the Orthodox Christians rebutting him.  The forum will remain Orthodox Christian irregardless of the outcome.


To understand the Scriptures, you have to read them as a whole; moreover, you have to read them with the mind of Christ, which belongs to the Church. You are proving again and again that you do not have this Mind, but rather a carnal mind.


Where's the thumbs-up smiley?  ;)

Ditto.  8)

The context is not 6th century Orthodoxy, that came centuries too late.

The context is scripture.

The idea words are multi-dimensional=more than two,  is absurd, they are two dimensional...really, they are, just look at these.

I'd seek a refund.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 03:37:52 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1501 on: October 28, 2010, 03:41:03 AM »
Was Jesus talking about literal bread, that you could bake or boil
or use 5 loaves to feed 5 thousand... 

oh... wait... that's right, I forgot.

You cannot say "flesh" here is literal, but deny Christ didn't say the Jews listening should murder and eat Him:

 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. (Joh 6:56 KJV)

Its either figurative....or literal, its not both.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1502 on: October 28, 2010, 03:49:46 AM »
You can't arbitrarily pick one word as literal, when the entire phrase its in, is figurative.

You must be consistent, either Christ meant it literally, or He did not.

You think that everything has to be "literal" in a carnal, worldly sense or "figurative", because your fleshy rational mind cannot comprehend the mystery of God's Incarnation.

 What we are trying to get you to see is that Christ's words in John 6 are both literal, in the sense that His Flesh is real Flesh, and spiritual, in the sense that the miracle of the Eucharist cannot be understood in normal, worldly (what you call "literal") terms. In other words, He meant it literally, but not the way you mean it.

Its impossible Christ commanded them to eat His literal flesh as He said it would be given for the life of the world, later:

 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (Joh 6:51 KJV)


Therefore flesh cannot be literal here, for He did command THEY eat it, immediately:

 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. (Joh 6:53 KJV)

So both cannot be true, Christ could not be commanding they eat His literal flesh, AND say His literal flesh would be given later for the life of the world.

Can't do both.

Peter correctly understood Christ's meaning, they had to ingest Christ entire, not just the fact He is a good teacher, but also the inner reality, that He is the Christ , the Son of the living God:

 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. (Joh 6:69 KJV)

« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 03:56:38 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline DennyB

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1503 on: October 28, 2010, 07:56:55 AM »
Obviously, Jesus is not saying, 'My flesh profits nothing'.

What He is referring to are those who petition Him, "Lord, give us this bread always" (verse 34)

Incorrect, you have us jumping over the context to verse 34, rather the referent is "eats my flesh" in verse 56, and THAT "hard saying" is carried forward by the "this" in vss 58, 60, 61.

56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 (Joh 6:56-63 NKJ)

"The flesh profits nothing" is referring to their objection to "eat my flesh", therefore Christ is saying literally eating it profits nothing.

This is confirmed by "it is the Spirit who gives life," that refers to the blood in the context, "the life of the flesh is in the blood" (cp Gen 9:4, Lev 17:11 &c.)
One must believe Christ is the bread that came down  from Heaven, the incarnate Son of God, to have life in themselves. This inner life of Christ, clothed in the flesh, is what gives eternal life. Eating his literal flesh would profit them nothing.

That belief in Jesus as God the Son is what they must ingest for eternal life, is clear in context:

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 (Joh 6:63-69 NKJ)

Peter and his fellow disciples understood, they weren't like the unbelievers, they believed Jesus' claims of divinity, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

If Jesus was saying "there are some of you who don't believe you must eat my literal flesh," then Peter's response is inexplicable, babbling, completely off topic. Then Christ is looking for belief in cannibalism, and Peter is babbling about His Deity.

As it is impossible Peter didn't understand Christ, but the unbelieving Jews who deserted Him did, your interpretation fails.


As for your last, "bread" is FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE, not proving your point these words are meant literally.

AND the fact Christ says His flesh will be given for the life of the world, PROVES He didn't mean they should eat it then, preventing it being given.



If we are to hold to your interpretation,then there was no need for Jesus to use such literal language to explain  simple belief, your stance is an empty cistern.

What literal language, this:

 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." (Joh 6:58 NKJ)

Was Jesus talking about literal bread, that  you could bake or boil etc like manna from heaven?

Why do You keep thinking with this analytical,rational mindset. Of course He wasn't taking about THIS kind of bread. He is speaking about UNION with himself,being the GOD-MAN. The Eucharist is an expression of this union.

You can't arbitrarily pick one word as literal, when the entire phrase its in, is figurative.

You must be consistent, either Christ meant it literally, or He did not.



What in the world are you talking about?

Offline DennyB

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1504 on: October 28, 2010, 08:05:49 AM »
Was Jesus talking about literal bread, that you could bake or boil
or use 5 loaves to feed 5 thousand... 

oh... wait... that's right, I forgot.

You cannot say "flesh" here is literal, but deny Christ didn't say the Jews listening should murder and eat Him:

 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. (Joh 6:56 KJV)

Its either figurative....or literal, its not both.



By your exegesis of this passage Jesus is not only confusing His detractors,but His loyal disciples ,because all I get from your posts is confusion!! Your apologetic skills need some honning,if your ever going to win converts to your Alfredism!!!

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1505 on: October 28, 2010, 08:43:29 AM »
What in the world are you talking about?

What are you talking about?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 08:44:18 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1506 on: October 28, 2010, 08:48:17 AM »
Was Jesus talking about literal bread, that you could bake or boil
or use 5 loaves to feed 5 thousand...

oh... wait... that's right, I forgot.

You cannot say "flesh" here is literal, but deny Christ didn't say the Jews listening should murder and eat Him:

 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. (Joh 6:56 KJV)

Its either figurative....or literal, its not both.



By your exegesis of this passage Jesus is not only confusing His detractors,but His loyal disciples ,because all I get from your posts is confusion!! Your apologetic skills need some honning,if your ever going to win converts to your Alfredism!!!

Incorrect, Peter and the disciples knew exactly what Jesus meant:

 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. [=words are spirit and life]
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." [=flesh and blood which is believed (ingested) for eternal life]
 (Joh 6:63-69 NKJ)

Compare:

 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


Compare:

 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 (Joh 6:28-29 NKJ)

 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 (Joh 6:35-37 NKJ)

« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 08:50:46 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1507 on: October 28, 2010, 09:17:20 AM »
Was Jesus talking about literal bread, that you could bake or boil
or use 5 loaves to feed 5 thousand...

oh... wait... that's right, I forgot.

You cannot say "flesh" here is literal, but deny Christ didn't say the Jews listening should murder and eat Him:

 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. (Joh 6:56 KJV)

Its either figurative....or literal, its not both.



By your exegesis of this passage Jesus is not only confusing His detractors,but His loyal disciples ,because all I get from your posts is confusion!! Your apologetic skills need some honning,if your ever going to win converts to your Alfredism!!!

Incorrect, Peter and the disciples knew exactly what Jesus meant:

 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. [=words are spirit and life]
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." [=flesh and blood which is believed (ingested) for eternal life]
 (Joh 6:63-69 NKJ)

Compare:

 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


Compare:

 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 (Joh 6:28-29 NKJ)

 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 (Joh 6:35-37 NKJ)


Who knows what you say but it is not of the faith since to divide the body of the Lord to rationalization and incorrect compartmentalization of scripture to their own reasoning rather than obeying the Lord to confess & partake of His body is reason enough to know heresy when one sees it. Who knows what your sense of holy communion is but your own rationalizations but remember whatever they may be they do not discern the Lord's body but their own heresy, "For he that eateth & drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation unto himself, not discerning the Lord's body." (1 Corinthians 12:29). Be forwarned & repent of your heresy.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 09:18:24 AM by recent convert »
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1508 on: October 28, 2010, 09:47:25 AM »
List the precise properties of Christ's baptism that makes it ontologically different than other baptism.

And answer if Christ' baptism is true, then ours must be false?

While it may be your tradition that baptism is for salvation, that isn't apostolic doctrine:

"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 (Act 10:47 NKJ)

There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

IN a baptism of repentance, the answer of a good conscience, that repents of sin and believes in the LORD Jesus Christ, that is what saves.

Unbelief in the Gospel of Christ is the only ground for condemnation (John 3:18, 36; Mark 16:15,16; Rom 10:9-12; Eph 4:18; 2 Pet 2:3,4; 1 John 4:3), not lack of baptism.

To label Christ's baptism a "Jewish ceremony" unlike Christian baptism is to imply its inferior somehow to ours, but Christ said it fulfilled all righteousness, and clearly it lacked nothing in the way of Spirit:

14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.
 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
 (Mat 3:14-17 NKJ)

There isn't one kind of baptism for Christ and another for us:

one Lord, one faith, one baptism; (Eph 4:5 NKJ)

There is only One body and we are all baptized into it, Christ is this body, therefore His baptism is NOT ontologically different than ours:

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:13 NKJ)

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. (1Co 12:27 NKJ)

Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4 NKJ)

How Christ's baptism is different from ours:
- It was not performed by an ordained priest of the Orthodox Catholic Church
- It was not performed on apostolic authority
- It was not performed in the Name of the Trinity
- It did not wash away sin, as Christ has none

Yes, it was different. That does not make it inferior to ours, as you imply. It makes it different. It is a mystery. Why does one have to be superior to the other in your mind?

You seem to have a real problem with mystery, you can't accept anything that doesn't make sense in a grossly literal way. Well, Orthodoxy is chock full of it. We love paradox and things that make no sense. It keeps us humble.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 09:48:28 AM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1509 on: October 28, 2010, 09:52:20 AM »
Who knows what you say but it is not of the faith since to divide the body of the Lord to rationalization and incorrect compartmentalization of scripture to their own reasoning rather than obeying the Lord to confess & partake of His body is reason enough to know heresy when one sees it. Who knows what your sense of holy communion is but your own rationalizations but remember whatever they may be they do not discern the Lord's body but their own heresy, "For he that eateth & drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation unto himself, not discerning the Lord's body." (1 Corinthians 12:29). Be forwarned & repent of your heresy.

Its called exegesis, and not rationalization or compartmentalization:

Peter and the disciples ("we") knew exactly what Jesus meant:

 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. [=words are spirit and life]
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." [=flesh and blood which is believed (ingested) for eternal life]
 (Joh 6:63-69 NKJ)

Compare:

 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


AND "not discerning the Lord's body" cannot mean "not discerning the bread is the Lord's literal body" as Paul says we do this in "remembrance"

 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance ( ἀνάμνησιν) of Me." (1Co 11:24 NKJ)

 ἀνάμνησιν denotes "a remembering," a memory of Christ's body is NOT Christ's body.

We would NOT eat the bread "remebering Christ's body" if it is Christ's body, then we are "experiencing it."

Experiencing is not "remembering."



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1510 on: October 28, 2010, 09:55:03 AM »
List the precise properties of Christ's baptism that makes it ontologically different than other baptism.

And answer if Christ' baptism is true, then ours must be false?

While it may be your tradition that baptism is for salvation, that isn't apostolic doctrine:

"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 (Act 10:47 NKJ)

There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

IN a baptism of repentance, the answer of a good conscience, that repents of sin and believes in the LORD Jesus Christ, that is what saves.

Unbelief in the Gospel of Christ is the only ground for condemnation (John 3:18, 36; Mark 16:15,16; Rom 10:9-12; Eph 4:18; 2 Pet 2:3,4; 1 John 4:3), not lack of baptism.

To label Christ's baptism a "Jewish ceremony" unlike Christian baptism is to imply its inferior somehow to ours, but Christ said it fulfilled all righteousness, and clearly it lacked nothing in the way of Spirit:

14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.
 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
 (Mat 3:14-17 NKJ)

There isn't one kind of baptism for Christ and another for us:

one Lord, one faith, one baptism; (Eph 4:5 NKJ)

There is only One body and we are all baptized into it, Christ is this body, therefore His baptism is NOT ontologically different than ours:

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:13 NKJ)

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. (1Co 12:27 NKJ)

Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4 NKJ)

How Christ's baptism is different from ours:
- It was not performed by an ordained priest of the Orthodox Catholic Church
- It was not performed on apostolic authority
- It was not performed in the Name of the Trinity
- It did not wash away sin, as Christ has none

Yes, it was different. That does not make it inferior to ours, as you imply. It makes it different. It is a mystery. Why does one have to be superior to the other in your mind?

You seem to have a real problem with mystery, you can't accept anything that doesn't make sense in a grossly literal way. Well, Orthodoxy is chock full of it. We love paradox and things that make no sense. It keeps us humble.

The Orthodox Catholic Church didn't exist.
The disciples weren't yet apostles.
It certainly was done in the name of the Holy Trinity, all Three are Present:

 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
 (Mat 3:16-17 NKJ)

Baptism doesn't wash away sin, the answer of a good conscience does, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)


« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 09:56:13 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1511 on: October 28, 2010, 10:15:41 AM »
Who knows what you say but it is not of the faith since to divide the body of the Lord to rationalization and incorrect compartmentalization of scripture to their own reasoning rather than obeying the Lord to confess & partake of His body is reason enough to know heresy when one sees it. Who knows what your sense of holy communion is but your own rationalizations but remember whatever they may be they do not discern the Lord's body but their own heresy, "For he that eateth & drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation unto himself, not discerning the Lord's body." (1 Corinthians 12:29). Be forwarned & repent of your heresy.

Its called exegesis, and not rationalization or compartmentalization:

Peter and the disciples ("we") knew exactly what Jesus meant:

 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. [=words are spirit and life]
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." [=flesh and blood which is believed (ingested) for eternal life]
 (Joh 6:63-69 NKJ)

Compare:

 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


AND "not discerning the Lord's body" cannot mean "not discerning the bread is the Lord's literal body" as Paul says we do this in "remembrance"

 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance ( ἀνάμνησιν) of Me." (1Co 11:24 NKJ)

 ἀνάμνησιν denotes "a remembering," a memory of Christ's body is NOT Christ's body.

We would NOT eat the bread "remebering Christ's body" if it is Christ's body, then we are "experiencing it."

Experiencing is not "remembering."




This is all your semantics in trying to redefine the faith on your terms and thinking you can do a snow job on those of us with a more simple faith and it will not work. You never did answer my earlier posts on the basics of the faith and you go on & on in your pride to redefine what the Lord told us & how we are to keep His faith but say, "I read the word of God and you do not" no matter what others say. Well the earliest Christians probably just knew Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, the implied faith of the Nicene creed, the 2 great commands, the 10 commandments, the Beatitudes, the Lord's prayer, were baptised, confessed sins, & partook of the holy Eucharist and did not arrogate the faith that is held according to holy tradition.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1512 on: October 28, 2010, 10:21:45 AM »
You need to stop saying things like "your analogies fail".

The analogies are fine.  You're the one failing to even TRY to understand them.
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1513 on: October 28, 2010, 10:26:53 AM »


The Orthodox Catholic Church didn't exist.

According to who? Where do you think the Faith came from? It came from Jesus, and from Him to the Disciples/Apostles and from them to us.

Quote
The disciples weren't yet apostles.

So


Quote
It certainly was done in the name of the Holy Trinity, all Three are Present:

We know all Three were present, but that wasn't his point. His point was that John the Baptist didn't Baptize Him in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

Quote
Baptism doesn't wash away sin, the answer of a good conscience does, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

The text you quoted was talking about Water Baptism. How do the Church Fathers and Christian witnesses interpret that text?


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Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1514 on: October 28, 2010, 10:48:15 AM »
No, no, jnorm888, none of that matters. Alfred Persson alone is the supreme and correct interpreter of Scripture.

And I for one hail our new ant overlords!
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1515 on: October 28, 2010, 10:52:47 AM »
Who knows what you say but it is not of the faith since to divide the body of the Lord to rationalization and incorrect compartmentalization of scripture to their own reasoning rather than obeying the Lord to confess & partake of His body is reason enough to know heresy when one sees it. Who knows what your sense of holy communion is but your own rationalizations but remember whatever they may be they do not discern the Lord's body but their own heresy, "For he that eateth & drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation unto himself, not discerning the Lord's body." (1 Corinthians 12:29). Be forwarned & repent of your heresy.

Its called exegesis, and not rationalization or compartmentalization:

Peter and the disciples ("we") knew exactly what Jesus meant:

 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. [=words are spirit and life]
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." [=flesh and blood which is believed (ingested) for eternal life]
 (Joh 6:63-69 NKJ)

Compare:

 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


AND "not discerning the Lord's body" cannot mean "not discerning the bread is the Lord's literal body" as Paul says we do this in "remembrance"

 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance ( ἀνάμνησιν) of Me." (1Co 11:24 NKJ)

 ἀνάμνησιν denotes "a remembering," a memory of Christ's body is NOT Christ's body.

We would NOT eat the bread "remebering Christ's body" if it is Christ's body, then we are "experiencing it."

Experiencing is not "remembering."




This is all your semantics in trying to redefine the faith on your terms and thinking you can do a snow job on those of us with a more simple faith and it will not work. You never did answer my earlier posts on the basics of the faith and you go on & on in your pride to redefine what the Lord told us & how we are to keep His faith but say, "I read the word of God and you do not" no matter what others say. Well the earliest Christians probably just knew Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, the implied faith of the Nicene creed, the 2 great commands, the 10 commandments, the Beatitudes, the Lord's prayer, were baptised, confessed sins, & partook of the holy Eucharist and did not arrogate the faith that is held according to holy tradition.

Yes, semantics, the science of the meaning of words, and not according to the tradition of men.

A simple faith accepts God wrote the Bible to be understood by its readers...that He didn't require immersion in rituals that didn't exist till the 6th century.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1516 on: October 28, 2010, 11:25:47 AM »
 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.
 (Gal 4:6-8 NKJ)

I've heard some Orthodox say God is a mystery, cannot be known. But Paul says those with the Spirit, who know God as their Father like I do, do know God. He implies it when he says in verse 8 "when you did not know God" which means those with the Spirit do know Him now.

I've never heard a fellow born again Christian say we cannot know God, that He is a mystery. We may say He is incomprehensible, but that doesn't mean we cannot know Him in truth, even if its not infinite comprehension, its real and genuine. He truly is the Father for example, revealing in truth who He is, even if it is a finite understanding, its correct.

So can't the Orthodox know God as well as we born agains?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 11:26:20 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1517 on: October 28, 2010, 11:55:06 AM »
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.
 (Gal 4:6-8 NKJ)

I've heard some Orthodox say God is a mystery, cannot be known. But Paul says those with the Spirit, who know God as their Father like I do, do know God. He implies it when he says in verse 8 "when you did not know God" which means those with the Spirit do know Him now.

I've never heard a fellow born again Christian say we cannot know God, that He is a mystery. We may say He is incomprehensible, but that doesn't mean we cannot know Him in truth, even if its not infinite comprehension, its real and genuine. He truly is the Father for example, revealing in truth who He is, even if it is a finite understanding, its correct.

So can't the Orthodox know God as well as we born agains?

Do you remember St. Gregory Palamas whose name came up a few pages ago? He answered this question well. A simple search will turn up plenty about him and his writings.

Your question certainly requires an essay answer, not a paragraph, and most certainly not multiple choice (unless you choose E - Other; please explain....)  :) .

Offline JLatimer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1518 on: October 28, 2010, 11:57:12 AM »
The context is not 6th century Orthodoxy, that came centuries too late.

Who said anything about the sixth century? ALL of the Church Fathers in every land and every century have disagreed with you, including the early/Ante-Nicene Fathers whom you claim to respect.

At the end of this post you'll find 3 example quotes (from among many) which show how the early Church Fathers saw the Eucharist.

The context for the Scriptures is indeed the Church that wrote them and canonized them under the direction of the Holy Spirit: the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church: one Church, one Body of Christ, which exists according to the whole (kata + holon), throughout space and time (even the sixth century!)

Was Jesus talking about literal bread, that you could bake or boil
or use 5 loaves to feed 5 thousand... 

oh... wait... that's right, I forgot.

You cannot say "flesh" here is literal, but deny Christ didn't say the Jews listening should murder and eat Him:

 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. (Joh 6:56 KJV)

Its either figurative....or literal, its not both.

How what you've said addresses my post you quoted I don't know. But let's be clear: it is you who are equivocating on the literalness/figurativeness of "flesh" in John 6.

You would have us believe that throughout the chapter, "flesh" means something besides "literal", corporeal flesh - in other words, it's figurative - but that then in verse 63, "flesh" means literal, corporeal flesh.

What we are saying is that σαρξ means what it ALWAYS means in the Bible: real, corporeal flesh.

However, while all flesh is real/corporeal in the sense that it can be seen and touched, etc., 
Quote from: 1 Corinthians 15:39-50 (KJV)
all flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. [40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. [41] There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. [42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: [44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. [45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. [48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. [49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

You want us to say Christ's Flesh is either real flesh or else figurative, i.e., not real. We say It is both REAL and SPIRITUAL.

-----

Quote from: Letters of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter VII
Let Us Stand Aloof from Such Heretics. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.

Quote from: First Apology of Justin, Chapter LXVI, Of the Eucharist
And this food is called among us the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.

Quote from: Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter II
By shedding His true blood for us, and exhibiting to us His true flesh in the Eucharist, He conferred upon our flesh the capacity of salvation.

2. But vain in every respect are they who despise the entire dispensation of God, and disallow the salvation of the flesh, and treat with contempt its regeneration, maintaining that it is not capable of incorruption. But if this indeed do not attain salvation, then neither did the Lord redeem us with His blood, nor is the cup of the Eucharist the communion of His blood, nor the bread which we break the communion of His body. For blood can only come from veins and flesh, and whatsoever else makes up the substance of man, such as the Word of God was actually made. By His own blood he redeemed us, as also His apostle declares, "In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the remission of sins." And as we are His members, we are also nourished by means of the creation (and He Himself grants the creation to us, for He causes His sun to rise, and sends rain when He wills). He has acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as His own blood, from which He bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of the creation) He has established as His own body, from which He gives increase to our bodies.

3. When, therefore, the mingled cup and the manufactured bread receives the Word of God, and the Eucharist of the blood and the body of Christ is made, from which things the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they affirm that the flesh is incapable of receiving the gift of God, which is life eternal, which [flesh] is nourished from the body and blood of the Lord, and is a member of Him?—even as the blessed Paul declares in his Epistle to the Ephesians, that "we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones." He does not speak these words of some spiritual and invisible man, for a spirit has not bones nor flesh; but [he refers to] that dispensation [by which the Lord became] an actual man, consisting of flesh, and nerves, and bones,—that [flesh] which is nourished by the cup which is His blood, and receives increase from the bread which is His body. And just as a cutting from the vine planted in the ground fructifies in its season, or as a corn of wheat falling into the earth and becoming decomposed, rises with manifold increase by the Spirit of God, who contains all things, and then, through the wisdom of God, serves for the use of men, and having received the Word of God, becomes the Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Christ; so also our bodies, being nourished by it, and deposited in the earth, and suffering decomposition there, shall rise at their appointed time, the Word of God granting them resurrection to the glory of God.
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1519 on: October 28, 2010, 12:07:09 PM »
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.
 (Gal 4:6-8 NKJ)

I've heard some Orthodox say God is a mystery, cannot be known. But Paul says those with the Spirit, who know God as their Father like I do, do know God. He implies it when he says in verse 8 "when you did not know God" which means those with the Spirit do know Him now.

I've never heard a fellow born again Christian say we cannot know God, that He is a mystery. We may say He is incomprehensible, but that doesn't mean we cannot know Him in truth, even if its not infinite comprehension, its real and genuine. He truly is the Father for example, revealing in truth who He is, even if it is a finite understanding, its correct.

So can't the Orthodox know God as well as we born agains?

Do you remember St. Gregory Palamas whose name came up a few pages ago? He answered this question well. A simple search will turn up plenty about him and his writings.

Your question certainly requires an essay answer, not a paragraph, and most certainly not multiple choice (unless you choose E - Other; please explain....)  :) .

Rather than an essay, a born again would simply quote this:

 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
 (Rom 8:15-16 NKJ)

We have the simple knowing God is our Father, as a child does his earthly father...Of course the child doesn't know all his earthly father does, but on a very real level, that intellectual apprehension isn't the knowing that is important to him.

Couldn't you condense his thought into a paragraph?



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1520 on: October 28, 2010, 12:56:50 PM »
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.
 (Gal 4:6-8 NKJ)

I've heard some Orthodox say God is a mystery, cannot be known. But Paul says those with the Spirit, who know God as their Father like I do, do know God. He implies it when he says in verse 8 "when you did not know God" which means those with the Spirit do know Him now.

I've never heard a fellow born again Christian say we cannot know God, that He is a mystery. We may say He is incomprehensible, but that doesn't mean we cannot know Him in truth, even if its not infinite comprehension, its real and genuine. He truly is the Father for example, revealing in truth who He is, even if it is a finite understanding, its correct.

So can't the Orthodox know God as well as we born agains?

Do you remember St. Gregory Palamas whose name came up a few pages ago? He answered this question well. A simple search will turn up plenty about him and his writings.

Your question certainly requires an essay answer, not a paragraph, and most certainly not multiple choice (unless you choose E - Other; please explain....)  :) .

Rather than an essay, a born again would simply quote this:

 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
 (Rom 8:15-16 NKJ)

We have the simple knowing God is our Father, as a child does his earthly father...Of course the child doesn't know all his earthly father does, but on a very real level, that intellectual apprehension isn't the knowing that is important to him.

Couldn't you condense his thought into a paragraph?




Alfred, we Orthodox would instantly agree with you that "knowing" in this context goes far beyond intellectual apprehension. But it seemed to me that you were questioning what you may have heard that the Orthodox may also say that we cannot know God. Since you asked for it - and what will follow is NOT an official Orthodox document - it is NOT an original source. It is a very simplistic summary:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Gregory_Palamas
Quote
Addressing the question of how it is possible for humans to have knowledge of a transcendent and unknowable God, he drew a distinction between knowing God in his essence (in Greek, ουσία) and knowing God in his energies (in Greek, ενέργειαι). He maintained the Orthodox doctrine that it remains impossible to know God in his essence (God in himself), but possible to know God in his energies (to know what God does, and who he is in relation to the creation and to man), as God reveals himself to humanity. In doing so, he made reference to the Cappadocian Fathers and other early Christian writers.

It's another one of those annoying paradoxes in Orthodoxy: that God is both knowable and unknowable. You've noticed that we like that sort of thing around here :D.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1521 on: October 28, 2010, 01:00:40 PM »
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?

Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose. When you fight with him, it's a waste of bandwidth. However, he is willing to put a toe into our pool a bit.

 Alfred has been through some suffering and thereby a field ready for a seed to grow.

   Fr. Seraphim Rose on Suffering

http://solzemli.wordpress.com/2008/08/12/fr-seraphim-rose-on-suffering/

Why do men learn through pain and suffering, and not through pleasure and happiness? Very simply, because pleasure and happiness accustom one to satisfaction with the things given in this world, whereas pain and suffering drive one to seek a more profound happiness beyond the limitations of this world. I am at this moment in some pain, and I call on the Name of Jesus—not necessarily to relieve the pain, but that Jesus, in Whom alone we may transcend this world, may be with me during it, and His will be done in me. But in pleasure I do not call on Him; I am content then with what I have, and I think I need no more. And why is a philosophy of pleasure untenable?—because pleasure is impermanent and unreliable, and pain is inevitable. In pain and suffering Christ speaks to us, and thus God is kind to give them to us, yes, and evil too—for in all of these we glimpse something of what must lie beyond, if there really exists what our hearts most deeply desire.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1522 on: October 28, 2010, 01:24:45 PM »
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.
 (Gal 4:6-8 NKJ)

I've heard some Orthodox say God is a mystery, cannot be known. But Paul says those with the Spirit, who know God as their Father like I do, do know God. He implies it when he says in verse 8 "when you did not know God" which means those with the Spirit do know Him now.

I've never heard a fellow born again Christian say we cannot know God, that He is a mystery. We may say He is incomprehensible, but that doesn't mean we cannot know Him in truth, even if its not infinite comprehension, its real and genuine. He truly is the Father for example, revealing in truth who He is, even if it is a finite understanding, its correct.

So can't the Orthodox know God as well as we born agains?

Do you remember St. Gregory Palamas whose name came up a few pages ago? He answered this question well. A simple search will turn up plenty about him and his writings.

Your question certainly requires an essay answer, not a paragraph, and most certainly not multiple choice (unless you choose E - Other; please explain....)  :) .

Rather than an essay, a born again would simply quote this:

 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
 (Rom 8:15-16 NKJ)

We have the simple knowing God is our Father, as a child does his earthly father...Of course the child doesn't know all his earthly father does, but on a very real level, that intellectual apprehension isn't the knowing that is important to him.

Couldn't you condense his thought into a paragraph?




Alfred, we Orthodox would instantly agree with you that "knowing" in this context goes far beyond intellectual apprehension. But it seemed to me that you were questioning what you may have heard that the Orthodox may also say that we cannot know God. Since you asked for it - and what will follow is NOT an official Orthodox document - it is NOT an original source. It is a very simplistic summary:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Gregory_Palamas
Quote
Addressing the question of how it is possible for humans to have knowledge of a transcendent and unknowable God, he drew a distinction between knowing God in his essence (in Greek, ουσία) and knowing God in his energies (in Greek, ενέργειαι). He maintained the Orthodox doctrine that it remains impossible to know God in his essence (God in himself), but possible to know God in his energies (to know what God does, and who he is in relation to the creation and to man), as God reveals himself to humanity. In doing so, he made reference to the Cappadocian Fathers and other early Christian writers.

It's another one of those annoying paradoxes in Orthodoxy: that God is both knowable and unknowable. You've noticed that we like that sort of thing around here :D.

I would agree with that, sounds right to me. Its in God's personal relationship Transcendent Deity condescends to have with us, that we know Him. But by God's Spirit we realize, know, this relationship of Father to child is real, and not superficial.

Thanks for the explanation, that worked for me.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 01:25:07 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1523 on: October 28, 2010, 01:38:37 PM »
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?

Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose. When you fight with him, it's a waste of bandwidth.

In the lady's defense, Alfred has already stated that he is an unapologetic fighter, after the manner of Christ and the apostles, and that he prefers a heated discussion.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1524 on: October 28, 2010, 02:26:56 PM »
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?

Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose. When you fight with him, it's a waste of bandwidth.

In the lady's defense, Alfred has already stated that he is an unapologetic fighter, after the manner of Christ and the apostles, and that he prefers a heated discussion.

Oh yes, it gives him a perverse pleasure. That does not mean we should participate in his destruction.

BTW...He may have a demon...................... not kidding.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1525 on: October 28, 2010, 02:40:39 PM »
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?

Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose. When you fight with him, it's a waste of bandwidth.

In the lady's defense, Alfred has already stated that he is an unapologetic fighter, after the manner of Christ and the apostles, and that he prefers a heated discussion.

Oh yes, it gives him a perverse pleasure. That does not mean we should participate in his destruction.

BTW...He may have a demon...................... not kidding.

 :o  :-X

Offline JLatimer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1526 on: October 28, 2010, 02:57:50 PM »
Alfred, I'd like to finish our conversation on John 6, but I want to make sure there's no jumping around so that points get lost. Join me if you wish: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,30861.msg486444.html#msg486444
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1527 on: October 28, 2010, 02:59:42 PM »

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1528 on: October 28, 2010, 03:18:34 PM »
lol ... it's so obvious, Alfred, you have no intentiom whatsoever of listening to, or learning from, anyone here.

And I'd be willing to bet you have made ZERO converts to your views.

So why in the world are you still here, if not just to troll as others have said?

Ummm..he just ordered a recorded lecture by Fr. Seraphim Rose. When you fight with him, it's a waste of bandwidth.

In the lady's defense, Alfred has already stated that he is an unapologetic fighter, after the manner of Christ and the apostles, and that he prefers a heated discussion.

Oh yes, it gives him a perverse pleasure. That does not mean we should participate in his destruction.

BTW...He may have a demon...................... not kidding.

After he said he either disliked, or had discomfort, or something about the Cross, I lean toward that possibility as well.

Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1529 on: October 28, 2010, 03:22:49 PM »
Who knows what you say but it is not of the faith since to divide the body of the Lord to rationalization and incorrect compartmentalization of scripture to their own reasoning rather than obeying the Lord to confess & partake of His body is reason enough to know heresy when one sees it. Who knows what your sense of holy communion is but your own rationalizations but remember whatever they may be they do not discern the Lord's body but their own heresy, "For he that eateth & drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation unto himself, not discerning the Lord's body." (1 Corinthians 12:29). Be forwarned & repent of your heresy.

Its called exegesis, and not rationalization or compartmentalization:

Peter and the disciples ("we") knew exactly what Jesus meant:

 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. [=words are spirit and life]
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." [=flesh and blood which is believed (ingested) for eternal life]
 (Joh 6:63-69 NKJ)

Compare:

 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


AND "not discerning the Lord's body" cannot mean "not discerning the bread is the Lord's literal body" as Paul says we do this in "remembrance"

 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance ( ἀνάμνησιν) of Me." (1Co 11:24 NKJ)

 ἀνάμνησιν denotes "a remembering," a memory of Christ's body is NOT Christ's body.

We would NOT eat the bread "remebering Christ's body" if it is Christ's body, then we are "experiencing it."

Experiencing is not "remembering."




This is all your semantics in trying to redefine the faith on your terms and thinking you can do a snow job on those of us with a more simple faith and it will not work. You never did answer my earlier posts on the basics of the faith and you go on & on in your pride to redefine what the Lord told us & how we are to keep His faith but say, "I read the word of God and you do not" no matter what others say. Well the earliest Christians probably just knew Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, the implied faith of the Nicene creed, the 2 great commands, the 10 commandments, the Beatitudes, the Lord's prayer, were baptised, confessed sins, & partook of the holy Eucharist and did not arrogate the faith that is held according to holy tradition.

Yes, semantics, the science of the meaning of words, and not according to the tradition of men.

A simple faith accepts God wrote the Bible to be understood by its readers...that He didn't require immersion in rituals that didn't exist till the 6th century.


The sacraments are not "rituals" but the fulfillment of the template of worship given to Moses in which the blood sacrifice has been abolished by the Eucharist. I have heard that you have had some bad times according to another poster and I am sorry for that but many here have too. It is not everything you post that may be objectionable but you have often treated us as heretics before probing further. Personally, I doubt many of us here feel most other Christians are "heretics' but must be vigilant of our faith & discern heretical beliefs without condemning an innocent person of heresy.
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Beware the wrath of the guardians of "love."