Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 195902 times)

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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1215 on: October 22, 2010, 10:49:46 PM »
Alfred, what's stopping you from attending an Orthodox church to find out for yourself what Orthodoxy teaches? What are you afraid of? The truth?


Icons stopped me. I flee idolatry. As I entered, I saw the icons, turned around, and left, never to return.

As you folks failed to prove your claim about icons, my decision not to enter remains in effect.

What I want to do to idols, is not something you would agree with.



The Iconic Image of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ scares you?

Prayer and fasting are in order, then please try again. What is stopping you, from our perspective, is likely a demon.

I think you should read the accounts of the 7th Ecumenical Council in detail. The issue of icons was thoroughly debated with both sides providing ample arguments based on scripture and history. It was a painstaking endeavour.

here is a link to some info.  http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/Ecumenical_Councils.htm#9

The decree of the Council for restoring icons to churches added an important clause which still stands at the foundation of the rationale for using and venerating icons in the Orthodox Church to this very day: "We define that the holy icons, whether in colour, mosaic, or some other material, should be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on the sacred vessels and liturgical vestments, on the walls, furnishings, and in houses and along the roads, namely the icons of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, that of our Lady the Theotokos, those of the venerable angels and those of all saintly people. Whenever these representations are contemplated, they will cause those who look at them to commemorate and love their prototype. We define also that they should be kissed and that they are an object of veneration and honour (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia), which is reserved for Him Who is the subject of our faith and is proper for the divine nature. The veneration accorded to an icon is in effect transmitted to the prototype; he who venerates the icon, venerated in it the reality for which it stands".  

Scared is not how I would describe my reaction to icons or any images of God used in worship.

And you would not be pleased with my plans for them.

 7 For in that day every man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which your own hands have made unto you for a sin. (Isa 31:7 KJV)

The distinction between "honour (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia)" is irrelevant, God forbade every sort of icon of God, specifically ruling out icons made in human similitude which would include the incarnate body of Christ:

lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure (εἰκόνα), the likeness of male or female, (Deu 4:16 LXE)

BTW.. I prayed for you tonight in front of a Miraculous Myrrh Streaming Icon of the Mother of God, that you may be healed.

This icon is extremely fragrent and filled the Church with the smell of roses. Oil miraculously comes off of it and is collected at the bottom on balls of cotton. Here is some reading for you about this Icon:  http://www.orthodoxhawaii.org/icons.html

Why do you think some Icons stream fragrant Myrrh? Why are so many people healed of grievous sickness in front of them? Why are so many people brought to Christ after seeing one?

"From thy holy Icon, O Lady Theotokos, blessed myrrh has flowed abundantely.  Thou hast therefore consoled those, in exile, faithful unto thee, and hast enlighten the unbelievers by thy Son's light.  Therefore O Lady, with tears we bow down to thee.  Be merciful to us in the hour of judgment.  Lest having received thy mercy we be punsished as those who have been contempuous of it.  But grant us through thy prayers to bring forth spiritual fruit, and save our souls" -  Troparion to the Iveron Icon, Tone 7.
 

If we could trust signs and wonders, why did Christ say:

 24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Mat 24:24 NKJ)

So are you saying that no miracles should be trusted? If not, what is your criteria for a legitimate miracle from God?

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1216 on: October 22, 2010, 11:57:25 PM »
Alfred, would you please provide a link to your church's statement of faith?
http://www.gracechurch.org/distinctives/

I disagree on filioque, and eschatology, otherwise what is there I believe also.

Thank you.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

What about the statement's eschatology do you disagree with?

Like the Orthodox I believe in the intermediate state and that after death there is forgiveness possible for sins, Protestants including my church generally do not.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

You still have not answered this question, Alfred.

I attend when I can.

Now you have  another thing to condemn me for, I don't attend church 100%...gasp! The shock, the horror.

Do you attend every Sunday never missing a service. If so, do you want a medal or something?

Now about those texts of scripture I cited...don't they interest you even a little?


 24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! (Mat 23:24 NKJ)

The texts you cited would interest me IF you obeyed Hebrews 10:25 and attended church faithfully each and every Sunday.  Now I see you are a hypocrite.  How can you expect me to believe you?

And, yes, I would like my medal.

Hah Hah! I knew you were fishing for more ad hominem...so did any critical thinkers reading this thread...we are having fun...



Nonsense, Alfred. Not all ad hominems are fallacious. Some are relevant. Your claim to authority is your unique acceptance of the Apostles. Hebrews 10:25 is plain in its meaning. You claim to accept what the Apostles said, but you do not follow them. You evaded my question repeatedly because you knew an honest answer would reveal your hypocrisy to everyone. Then you became defensive. Now you're trying to laugh it off. Face it, you've been caught on your own terms (sola scriptura).

« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 12:01:18 AM by tuesdayschild »

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1217 on: October 23, 2010, 01:24:44 AM »
God love ya, Alfred, since you're the only human on the planet who's got all the right theology since the Apostles, I hope you'll wave to all the rest of us poor slobs sweating away down in Hell's salt mines, while you and only you bask in the light of the glory of God.

(And if it turns out we're correct, we'll do the same for you.)

Nighty night! :)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1218 on: October 23, 2010, 01:58:06 AM »
Alfred, what's stopping you from attending an Orthodox church to find out for yourself what Orthodoxy teaches? What are you afraid of? The truth?


Icons stopped me. I flee idolatry. As I entered, I saw the icons, turned around, and left, never to return.

As you folks failed to prove your claim about icons, my decision not to enter remains in effect.

What I want to do to idols, is not something you would agree with.



The Iconic Image of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ scares you?

Prayer and fasting are in order, then please try again. What is stopping you, from our perspective, is likely a demon.

I think you should read the accounts of the 7th Ecumenical Council in detail. The issue of icons was thoroughly debated with both sides providing ample arguments based on scripture and history. It was a painstaking endeavour.

here is a link to some info.  http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/Ecumenical_Councils.htm#9

The decree of the Council for restoring icons to churches added an important clause which still stands at the foundation of the rationale for using and venerating icons in the Orthodox Church to this very day: "We define that the holy icons, whether in colour, mosaic, or some other material, should be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on the sacred vessels and liturgical vestments, on the walls, furnishings, and in houses and along the roads, namely the icons of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, that of our Lady the Theotokos, those of the venerable angels and those of all saintly people. Whenever these representations are contemplated, they will cause those who look at them to commemorate and love their prototype. We define also that they should be kissed and that they are an object of veneration and honour (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia), which is reserved for Him Who is the subject of our faith and is proper for the divine nature. The veneration accorded to an icon is in effect transmitted to the prototype; he who venerates the icon, venerated in it the reality for which it stands".  

Scared is not how I would describe my reaction to icons or any images of God used in worship.

And you would not be pleased with my plans for them.

 7 For in that day every man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which your own hands have made unto you for a sin. (Isa 31:7 KJV)

The distinction between "honour (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia)" is irrelevant, God forbade every sort of icon of God, specifically ruling out icons made in human similitude which would include the incarnate body of Christ:

lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure (εἰκόνα), the likeness of male or female, (Deu 4:16 LXE)

BTW.. I prayed for you tonight in front of a Miraculous Myrrh Streaming Icon of the Mother of God, that you may be healed.

This icon is extremely fragrent and filled the Church with the smell of roses. Oil miraculously comes off of it and is collected at the bottom on balls of cotton. Here is some reading for you about this Icon:  http://www.orthodoxhawaii.org/icons.html

Why do you think some Icons stream fragrant Myrrh? Why are so many people healed of grievous sickness in front of them? Why are so many people brought to Christ after seeing one?

"From thy holy Icon, O Lady Theotokos, blessed myrrh has flowed abundantely.  Thou hast therefore consoled those, in exile, faithful unto thee, and hast enlighten the unbelievers by thy Son's light.  Therefore O Lady, with tears we bow down to thee.  Be merciful to us in the hour of judgment.  Lest having received thy mercy we be punsished as those who have been contempuous of it.  But grant us through thy prayers to bring forth spiritual fruit, and save our souls" -  Troparion to the Iveron Icon, Tone 7.
 

If we could trust signs and wonders, why did Christ say:

 24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Mat 24:24 NKJ)

So are you saying that no miracles should be trusted? If not, what is your criteria for a legitimate miracle from God?

 21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
 23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
 (Mat 7:21-23 NKJ)

Miracles of God are according to the Father's will; Miracles done by Christ won't be "lawless."

 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jo 4:6 NKJ)

 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 (2Th 2:9-12 NKJ)

17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. (Joh 17:17 NKJ)
NKJ  Deuteronomy 13:1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
 2 "and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying,`Let us go after other gods'-- which you have not known--`and let us serve them,'
 3 "you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
 4 "You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.

 (Deu 13:1-4 NKJ)


 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)

 26 "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Indeed they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart,
 27 "who try to make My people forget My name by their dreams which everyone tells his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My name for Baal.
 28 "The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?" says the LORD.
 (Jer 23:26-28 NKJ)


The overarching theme miracles are always consistent with God's Word the Bible, they never support what is against God:

 23 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: "How can Satan cast out Satan?
 24 "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
 25 "And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
 (Mar 3:23-25 NKJ)

Satan will never teach "obey God's Word the Bible", that is precisely what he can't do, for then his kingdom is destroyed.

Christ is using "cast out" in literal meaning, where the Spirit of God drives out a devil. Satan can counterfeit an exorcism, but there "cast out" is meant in a different sense, "to sternly request the demon leave":

 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches." (Act 19:13 NKJ)

Compare:

The demons do not cure, but by their art make men their captives. And the most admirable Justin has rightly denounced them as robbers. For, as it is the practice of some to capture persons and then to restore them to their friends for a ransom, so those who are esteemed gods, invading the bodies of certain persons, and producing a sense of their presence by dreams, command them to come forth into public, and in the sight of all, when they have taken their fill of the things of this world, fly away from the sick, and, destroying the disease which they had produced, restore men to their former state.-Address of Tatian to the Greeks (c. 160), xviii, Ante-Nicene Fathers: Volume II, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1997. 



Read this context carefully, notice Paul contrasts antichrists versus real Christians, the identifying feature is nonbelief in the truth versus belief in the truth.

 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
 (2Th 2:9-15 NKJ)

Real Christians listen to the scripture because the Holy Spirit compels them to, antichristians, those who don the guise of Christ, to oppose Christ, may work Christian like signs and wonders, but they compel rebellion against the plain meaning of Scripture.

The only sign or wonder Satan cannot counterfeit is OBEDIENCE to God's Word the Bible.



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1219 on: October 23, 2010, 02:15:24 PM »
Alfred, what's stopping you from attending an Orthodox church to find out for yourself what Orthodoxy teaches? What are you afraid of? The truth?


Icons stopped me. I flee idolatry. As I entered, I saw the icons, turned around, and left, never to return.

As you folks failed to prove your claim about icons, my decision not to enter remains in effect.

What I want to do to idols, is not something you would agree with.



The Iconic Image of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ scares you?

Prayer and fasting are in order, then please try again. What is stopping you, from our perspective, is likely a demon.

I think you should read the accounts of the 7th Ecumenical Council in detail. The issue of icons was thoroughly debated with both sides providing ample arguments based on scripture and history. It was a painstaking endeavour.

here is a link to some info.  http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/Ecumenical_Councils.htm#9

The decree of the Council for restoring icons to churches added an important clause which still stands at the foundation of the rationale for using and venerating icons in the Orthodox Church to this very day: "We define that the holy icons, whether in colour, mosaic, or some other material, should be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on the sacred vessels and liturgical vestments, on the walls, furnishings, and in houses and along the roads, namely the icons of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, that of our Lady the Theotokos, those of the venerable angels and those of all saintly people. Whenever these representations are contemplated, they will cause those who look at them to commemorate and love their prototype. We define also that they should be kissed and that they are an object of veneration and honour (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia), which is reserved for Him Who is the subject of our faith and is proper for the divine nature. The veneration accorded to an icon is in effect transmitted to the prototype; he who venerates the icon, venerated in it the reality for which it stands".  

Scared is not how I would describe my reaction to icons or any images of God used in worship.

And you would not be pleased with my plans for them.

 7 For in that day every man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which your own hands have made unto you for a sin. (Isa 31:7 KJV)

The distinction between "honour (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia)" is irrelevant, God forbade every sort of icon of God, specifically ruling out icons made in human similitude which would include the incarnate body of Christ:

lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure (εἰκόνα), the likeness of male or female, (Deu 4:16 LXE)

BTW.. I prayed for you tonight in front of a Miraculous Myrrh Streaming Icon of the Mother of God, that you may be healed.

This icon is extremely fragrent and filled the Church with the smell of roses. Oil miraculously comes off of it and is collected at the bottom on balls of cotton. Here is some reading for you about this Icon:  http://www.orthodoxhawaii.org/icons.html

Why do you think some Icons stream fragrant Myrrh? Why are so many people healed of grievous sickness in front of them? Why are so many people brought to Christ after seeing one?

"From thy holy Icon, O Lady Theotokos, blessed myrrh has flowed abundantely.  Thou hast therefore consoled those, in exile, faithful unto thee, and hast enlighten the unbelievers by thy Son's light.  Therefore O Lady, with tears we bow down to thee.  Be merciful to us in the hour of judgment.  Lest having received thy mercy we be punsished as those who have been contempuous of it.  But grant us through thy prayers to bring forth spiritual fruit, and save our souls" -  Troparion to the Iveron Icon, Tone 7.
 

If we could trust signs and wonders, why did Christ say:

 24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Mat 24:24 NKJ)

So are you saying that no miracles should be trusted? If not, what is your criteria for a legitimate miracle from God?

 21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
 23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
 (Mat 7:21-23 NKJ)

Miracles of God are according to the Father's will; Miracles done by Christ won't be "lawless."

 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jo 4:6 NKJ)

 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 (2Th 2:9-12 NKJ)

17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. (Joh 17:17 NKJ)
NKJ  Deuteronomy 13:1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
 2 "and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying,`Let us go after other gods'-- which you have not known--`and let us serve them,'
 3 "you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
 4 "You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.

 (Deu 13:1-4 NKJ)


 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)

 26 "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Indeed they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart,
 27 "who try to make My people forget My name by their dreams which everyone tells his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My name for Baal.
 28 "The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?" says the LORD.
 (Jer 23:26-28 NKJ)


The overarching theme miracles are always consistent with God's Word the Bible, they never support what is against God:

 23 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: "How can Satan cast out Satan?
 24 "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
 25 "And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
 (Mar 3:23-25 NKJ)

Satan will never teach "obey God's Word the Bible", that is precisely what he can't do, for then his kingdom is destroyed.

Christ is using "cast out" in literal meaning, where the Spirit of God drives out a devil. Satan can counterfeit an exorcism, but there "cast out" is meant in a different sense, "to sternly request the demon leave":

 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches." (Act 19:13 NKJ)

Compare:

The demons do not cure, but by their art make men their captives. And the most admirable Justin has rightly denounced them as robbers. For, as it is the practice of some to capture persons and then to restore them to their friends for a ransom, so those who are esteemed gods, invading the bodies of certain persons, and producing a sense of their presence by dreams, command them to come forth into public, and in the sight of all, when they have taken their fill of the things of this world, fly away from the sick, and, destroying the disease which they had produced, restore men to their former state.-Address of Tatian to the Greeks (c. 160), xviii, Ante-Nicene Fathers: Volume II, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1997. 



Read this context carefully, notice Paul contrasts antichrists versus real Christians, the identifying feature is nonbelief in the truth versus belief in the truth.

 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
 (2Th 2:9-15 NKJ)

Real Christians listen to the scripture because the Holy Spirit compels them to, antichristians, those who don the guise of Christ, to oppose Christ, may work Christian like signs and wonders, but they compel rebellion against the plain meaning of Scripture.

The only sign or wonder Satan cannot counterfeit is OBEDIENCE to God's Word the Bible.





This really demonstrates the dead end of Sola Scriptura. You are left wondering if one of God's Miracles is a trick or even Satanic. This is exactly what happens when you cut yourself off from the Holy Spirit which guides The Church ( as promised in scripture....no less).

When an Icon streams Myrrh it's not left up to the individual to discern what is going on, frantically leafing through the Bible to find which passages may be applicable. Do you apply the accounts of all the Miracles or do you apply the the passages that warns us not to be hasty.

If you are cut off from The Church then I suppose you should err on the side of caution. But then there are no miracles anymore, no healings, no conversions in the shadow of a genuine Miracle. ..on and on. You are cast a drift with your own personal fears clinging to untethered free floating passages from Scripture. There is hardly a worse curse you could deliberately bring down upon yourself  I would think.

But within the Church things are different. When an Icon begins to stream Myrrh, it is not automatically seen as from God. The Bishop is called and the event is look at very carefully. Within the Church a Bishop whose authority comes down directly in an unbroken chain from the Apostles can see if this manifestation is within the experience of Christianity. We can see if this has happened before, what the results have been
( people healed , brought  to Christ, etc) and if this is similar.

Now we can have no fear of it and use such a Miracle how it is intended and not discard it into the trash because we have misunderstood or have no greater authority to turn to. 

Today, I actually saw drops of Myrrh form on the Icon. They were not there earlier and then appeared. The fragrance of Roses was very powerful.    Go figure.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1220 on: October 23, 2010, 02:59:27 PM »
Quote
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects

 :o

Oh no, he didn't!


Luke 10

 1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go. 2 Then He said to them, “The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. 3 Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves. 4 Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road. 5 But whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6 And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it; if not, it will return to you. 7 And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house. 8 Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you. 9 And heal the sick there, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, 11 ‘The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.’ 12 But I say to you that it will be more tolerable in that Day for Sodom than for that city.
Woe to the Impenitent Cities
   
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades. 16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
   
17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven."

(bold added)

It leads to this kind of thing:



If that's the way Alfred insists on going, it's his choice. 


1 Timothy 3:14-15

14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

(bold added)

If you want to know what separation from God is like, read the Book of Jeremiah-- where he talks about the darkness and the loneliness. Why would you want to separate yourself from the Church, which is the house that Jesus built?
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1221 on: October 23, 2010, 03:58:03 PM »
Alfred, would you please provide a link to your church's statement of faith?
http://www.gracechurch.org/distinctives/

I disagree on filioque, and eschatology, otherwise what is there I believe also.

Thank you.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

What about the statement's eschatology do you disagree with?

Like the Orthodox I believe in the intermediate state and that after death there is forgiveness possible for sins, Protestants including my church generally do not.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

You still have not answered this question, Alfred.

I attend when I can.

Now you have  another thing to condemn me for, I don't attend church 100%...gasp! The shock, the horror.

Do you attend every Sunday never missing a service. If so, do you want a medal or something?

Now about those texts of scripture I cited...don't they interest you even a little?


 24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! (Mat 23:24 NKJ)

The texts you cited would interest me IF you obeyed Hebrews 10:25 and attended church faithfully each and every Sunday.  Now I see you are a hypocrite.  How can you expect me to believe you?

And, yes, I would like my medal.

Hah Hah! I knew you were fishing for more ad hominem...so did any critical thinkers reading this thread...we are having fun...



Nonsense, Alfred. Not all ad hominems are fallacious. Some are relevant. Your claim to authority is your unique acceptance of the Apostles. Hebrews 10:25 is plain in its meaning. You claim to accept what the Apostles said, but you do not follow them. You evaded my question repeatedly because you knew an honest answer would reveal your hypocrisy to everyone. Then you became defensive. Now you're trying to laugh it off. Face it, you've been caught on your own terms (sola scriptura).



Huh. Touched a nerve there. Alfred only goes to church when he feels like it. Certainly it's not his #1 priority in life, if he only goes "when he can." Disappointing indeed. I agree that this exposes his whole outlook as a sham, because he does not even believe his own position.

Come to think of it though, since he is practically the 13th Apostle in his doctrinal purity, why would he need anyone to preach to him? He already knows it all. He can't lose his salvation. What's the point?

By the way, dear Alfie, you have once again resorted to Sola Scriptura tactics, which I remind you: you have not proven that theory heresy valid yet.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 03:59:36 PM by bogdan »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1222 on: October 23, 2010, 04:56:43 PM »
Alfred, would you please provide a link to your church's statement of faith?
http://www.gracechurch.org/distinctives/

I disagree on filioque, and eschatology, otherwise what is there I believe also.

Thank you.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

What about the statement's eschatology do you disagree with?

Like the Orthodox I believe in the intermediate state and that after death there is forgiveness possible for sins, Protestants including my church generally do not.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

You still have not answered this question, Alfred.

I attend when I can.

Now you have  another thing to condemn me for, I don't attend church 100%...gasp! The shock, the horror.

Do you attend every Sunday never missing a service. If so, do you want a medal or something?

Now about those texts of scripture I cited...don't they interest you even a little?


 24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! (Mat 23:24 NKJ)

The texts you cited would interest me IF you obeyed Hebrews 10:25 and attended church faithfully each and every Sunday.  Now I see you are a hypocrite.  How can you expect me to believe you?

And, yes, I would like my medal.

Hah Hah! I knew you were fishing for more ad hominem...so did any critical thinkers reading this thread...we are having fun...



Nonsense, Alfred. Not all ad hominems are fallacious. Some are relevant. Your claim to authority is your unique acceptance of the Apostles. Hebrews 10:25 is plain in its meaning. You claim to accept what the Apostles said, but you do not follow them. You evaded my question repeatedly because you knew an honest answer would reveal your hypocrisy to everyone. Then you became defensive. Now you're trying to laugh it off. Face it, you've been caught on your own terms (sola scriptura).



Huh. Touched a nerve there. Alfred only goes to church when he feels like it. Certainly it's not his #1 priority in life, if he only goes "when he can." Disappointing indeed. I agree that this exposes his whole outlook as a sham, because he does not even believe his own position.

Come to think of it though, since he is practically the 13th Apostle in his doctrinal purity, why would he need anyone to preach to him? He already knows it all. He can't lose his salvation. What's the point?

By the way, dear Alfie, you have once again resorted to Sola Scriptura tactics, which I remind you: you have not proven that theory heresy valid yet.
In Alfred's defense, though, I think you guys might be jumping on something he hasn't really explained for us. Has he really defined what he means by "when I can"? You guys, in your apparent rush to make him look like a hypocrite, have automatically assumed that his phrase, "when I can" means that he goes to church seldom or when he feels like it. Yet he has said no such thing. Alfred has said nothing more than "I go to church when I can", which can have several meanings.

We have many Orthodox on and off this forum who, because they live a great distance from church, are chronically ill, or are elderly, go to church when they can, which may not be very often because of their particular circumstances. Yet do you judge them for their ability to go to church only infrequently? Do you automatically assume that their motives are less than honorable, as you have so judged Alfred? Why the double standard?


Now speaking to Alfred: Alfred, the question of how frequently you go to church and your motivation for going to church infrequently, if you do, are important to this discussion. If you go infrequently out of honorable reasons, such as distance from church or bad health, then your infrequent church attendance gives us no reason to condemn your arguments as the arguments of a hypocrite. But if you go to church infrequently out of laziness, then the charge of hypocrisy is indeed a legitimate judgment that makes your ranting on this board truly lacking in any authority.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 05:02:16 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1223 on: October 23, 2010, 05:50:53 PM »
I should clarify that by separation from the Church, I meant a spiritual way. Certainly it should not be counted against a person if the only reason he didn't get to go were due to some insurmountable difficulty. If, however, he only did not wish to attend because of some claim or misunderstanding, I would hope someone would have a chance to persuade him otherwise.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1224 on: October 23, 2010, 05:57:04 PM »
I should clarify that by separation from the Church, I meant a spiritual way. Certainly it should not be counted against a person if the only reason he didn't get to go were due to some insurmountable difficulty. If, however, he only did not wish to attend because of some claim or misunderstanding, I would hope someone would have a chance to persuade him otherwise.
I didn't direct my comments to you, since I read your post as communicating exactly what you said in the above quote. :) I was speaking primarily to bogdan and tuesdayschild, both of whom focused explicitly on his church attendance.
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Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1225 on: October 23, 2010, 06:01:15 PM »
Thank you.   :)
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1226 on: October 23, 2010, 06:19:35 PM »

Now speaking to Alfred: Alfred, the question of how frequently you go to church and your motivation for going to church infrequently, if you do, are important to this discussion. If you go infrequently out of honorable reasons, such as distance from church or bad health, then your infrequent church attendance gives us no reason to condemn your arguments as the arguments of a hypocrite. But if you go to church infrequently out of laziness, then the charge of hypocrisy is indeed a legitimate judgment that makes your ranting on this board truly lacking in any authority.

I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

And none of you meet God's, do you really believe He prefers sacrifice over obedience to His Word the Bible?

 22 Then Samuel said: "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.
 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He also has rejected you from being king."
 (1Sa 15:22-23 NKJ)

While you are all casting about for grounds to condemn me, and not heed any of the scriptures I cited, God is watching, He is seeing all this...

16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another,
And the LORD listened and heard them;
So a book of remembrance was written before Him For those who fear the LORD And who meditate on His name.

 17 "They shall be Mine," says the LORD of hosts, "On the day that I make them My jewels.
And I will spare them As a man spares his own son who serves him."

 18 Then you shall again discern Between the righteous and the wicked,
Between one who serves God And one who does not serve Him.

 (Mal 3:16-18 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 06:23:25 PM by Alfred Persson »
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1227 on: October 23, 2010, 06:30:08 PM »
I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

Have you declared yourself to be a greater preacher than the 12 Preachers at your Church (if I have counted them correctly)?

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

Is there an issue with you being on Church property?

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

Here comes the obvious question ... are you OK?

While you are all casting about for grounds to condemn me, and not heed any of the scriptures I cited, God is watching, He is seeing all this...

I have misunderstood you from your first post and I have been unfair towards you based on my own hasty and wrong judgments even though this is a text based Internet discussion forum.  I hope you are OK.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 06:32:01 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1228 on: October 23, 2010, 06:47:48 PM »
Scared is not how I would describe my reaction to icons or any images of God used in worship.

And you would not be pleased with my plans for them.

In that case, by all means, please stay away from all Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran and Anglican churches, please!  There are already enough cases of vandalism out there.  :police:

Your implied argument is "we aren't alone using images, therefore its ok."

No, my implied argument is, you are threatening to violently destroy items within churches that you personally don't like, so stay the h-e-double-toothpicks out of our churches, please.  >:( 
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1229 on: October 23, 2010, 06:51:29 PM »

Now speaking to Alfred: Alfred, the question of how frequently you go to church and your motivation for going to church infrequently, if you do, are important to this discussion. If you go infrequently out of honorable reasons, such as distance from church or bad health, then your infrequent church attendance gives us no reason to condemn your arguments as the arguments of a hypocrite. But if you go to church infrequently out of laziness, then the charge of hypocrisy is indeed a legitimate judgment that makes your ranting on this board truly lacking in any authority.

I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.
Now that you've admitted this, if bogdan, tuesdayschild, et al., want to continue to press you on your apparent hypocrisy, then I'm not going to challenge them, since they are now totally justified to do so. Such ad hominem would be appropriate, since in our eyes your adherence or lack thereof to the exhortation of Hebrews 10:25 is central to your authority to teach us.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.
But if you wish to convince us, our standards are indeed very important. If you don't meet them, I'm not sure you have any authority in our eyes to lecture us. We don't grant you the authority to preach, "Do as I say, not as I do."
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 06:54:37 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1230 on: October 23, 2010, 07:02:40 PM »
I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.
Alfred, if I'm to take this at face value, I am distressed, not because I'm condemning you - you may be being evasive. There could still be valid reasons for limited Sunday morning attendance. You may be involved with other Christians at other times during the week. But my distress comes simply for your own sake, that you are not allowing yourself the company of other Christians. While many of us enjoy the friendships we encounter on this discussion board, it's not a substitute for worship or the intimate fellowship that God desires for us. Yes, some are called to live a solitary life as a hermit, but those are few. We honour those who have responded faithfully to that lonely calling. But hermits don't participate in forums like this.

It's for your own sake - and that of your family - though I don't recall that you have ever shared details about that - and I'm not asking you to do so. Your privacy needs to be respected.

Quote
I don't meet your standards, that's all.

And none of you meet God's, do you really believe He prefers sacrifice over obedience to His Word the Bible?
This would have sounded less argumentative if you had worded it "And none of us meet God's [standard]". I hope that's what you mean.

Unfortunately, at my own little mission parish we are unable to serve Vespers on a weekly basis. There are only three of us at most who are able to chant, and our priest simply can't do everything alone as we don't even have any altar servers to assist in the smallest tasks. We also rent space for our Sunday services and that space is often not available to us on Saturday evenings. However, I am looking forward as always to Orthros (Matins) and the Divine Liturgy. Even in our makeshift quarters I still feel as though I have stepped out of my world into God's when I attend our worship services. The camaraderie at coffee hour is always a delight as well.

So, Alfred - and others who are reading - have a wonderful day of worship tomorrow in the company of other Christians.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1231 on: October 23, 2010, 07:55:51 PM »
Thank you, PeterTheAleut, for doing due diligence. It was premature to jump on Alfred like I did. But it turns out my assessment of him was right.

That he shuns his fellow believers shows that Alfred:

1) has unbridled pride and arrogance, which he has also demonstrated in numerous comments in this thread;

2) is out of step with literally all Christians worldwide and throughout time, except the most extreme postmodern types, which account for a negligible (but growing) number of individuals;

3) demonstrates what mainstream American Christianity will be in 20 years. I have long thought this was coming, but I had never met someone who actually lived this way. All the Protestants I know at least still cling to the idea that the church has physical ties, not a nebulous collection of free agents who hold nothing in common except that the Bible and Jesus have some degree of special importance.

Alfred is the future of Protestantism.

Yet it's all perfectly consistent. If the Bible is all one needs, and one's personal feelings = the Holy Spirit, why would one need other people? Their contradictory beliefs get in the way of one's personal and exclusive channel to the Holy Spirit.

Further, if one can define for oneself what holiness and sanctity are (let's not kid ourselves; the Bible is nothing more than a carefully-tuned mouthpiece for one's preconceived notions when it's-just-me-and-the-Bible), then salvation is a foregone conclusion that is defined however one wants. And if you can't lose your salvation, then all of this is literally nothing more than a word game. I define that I am saved, therefore I am.

That, Alfred, is why the Bible is absolutely worthless when it is removed from Holy Tradition. Yes, I said that. Absolutely worthless.

You have rendered the Bible worthless because you have mastered the art of using the Bible to support your own bass-ackwards beliefs, such as shunning your fellow Christians—even Calvinists who believe 99% of the same things as you. Never mind that such ideas have no precedent at all in any church or culture. You dress up your exegesis in a lot of high-sounding language, but in the end it is you ripping a page out of the Bible and madly waving it around, saying you have found the answer that has eluded mankind for 2000 years. Do you know how insane and ridiculous that is?

But why shouldn't you? You have crowned yourself the Pope and Magesterium of your own heart, anointed yourself the high priest of your own heart. There is no authority outside yourself, neither in interpretation nor anything, because it must agree with Perssonism to be authoritative. It is a closed system. You worship an idol of your own creation, call it Jesus Christ.

Even that's not enough—you feel so self-justified that you come here preaching your false gospel like your predecessors Arius, Origen, Charles Russel, R. E. McAlister, Mohammad, and Joseph Smith, waving your false idol at us, and you call us the idolators. This is madness.

At this point, all I can say is: Woe to you.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 08:05:34 PM by bogdan »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1232 on: October 23, 2010, 09:28:14 PM »
3) demonstrates what mainstream American Christianity will be in 20 years. I have long thought this was coming, but I had never met someone who actually lived this way. All the Protestants I know at least still cling to the idea that the church has physical ties, not a nebulous collection of free agents who hold nothing in common except that the Bible and Jesus have some degree of special importance.

Alfred is the future of Protestantism.

Alfred is not worthy of that label.

Yet it's all perfectly consistent. If the Bible is all one needs, and one's personal feelings = the Holy Spirit, why would one need other people? Their contradictory beliefs get in the way of one's personal and exclusive channel to the Holy Spirit.

The Prosperity Gospel never foresaw foreclosures (pun intended) or bankruptcies.  No one asks Joel Osteen, Robert Schiller (or his daughter) or Joyce Meyer, et al, why foreclosures occurred.

Further, if one can define for oneself what holiness and sanctity are (let's not kid ourselves; the Bible is nothing more than a carefully-tuned mouthpiece for one's preconceived notions when it's-just-me-and-the-Bible), then salvation is a foregone conclusion that is defined however one wants. And if you can't lose your salvation, then all of this is literally nothing more than a word game. I define that I am saved, therefore I am.

I am saved; therefore, I squat in my former foreclosed McMansion because Jesus will stop the Sheriff from evicting me.

Disclaimer: For the record, I was never foreclosed nor squatted in a foreclosed house.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2010, 09:33:31 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1233 on: October 23, 2010, 10:19:05 PM »
Alfred, would you please provide a link to your church's statement of faith?
http://www.gracechurch.org/distinctives/

I disagree on filioque, and eschatology, otherwise what is there I believe also.

Thank you.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

What about the statement's eschatology do you disagree with?

Like the Orthodox I believe in the intermediate state and that after death there is forgiveness possible for sins, Protestants including my church generally do not.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

You still have not answered this question, Alfred.

I attend when I can.

Now you have  another thing to condemn me for, I don't attend church 100%...gasp! The shock, the horror.

Do you attend every Sunday never missing a service. If so, do you want a medal or something?

Now about those texts of scripture I cited...don't they interest you even a little?


 24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! (Mat 23:24 NKJ)

The texts you cited would interest me IF you obeyed Hebrews 10:25 and attended church faithfully each and every Sunday.  Now I see you are a hypocrite.  How can you expect me to believe you?

And, yes, I would like my medal.

Hah Hah! I knew you were fishing for more ad hominem...so did any critical thinkers reading this thread...we are having fun...



Nonsense, Alfred. Not all ad hominems are fallacious. Some are relevant. Your claim to authority is your unique acceptance of the Apostles. Hebrews 10:25 is plain in its meaning. You claim to accept what the Apostles said, but you do not follow them. You evaded my question repeatedly because you knew an honest answer would reveal your hypocrisy to everyone. Then you became defensive. Now you're trying to laugh it off. Face it, you've been caught on your own terms (sola scriptura).



Huh. Touched a nerve there. Alfred only goes to church when he feels like it. Certainly it's not his #1 priority in life, if he only goes "when he can." Disappointing indeed. I agree that this exposes his whole outlook as a sham, because he does not even believe his own position.

Come to think of it though, since he is practically the 13th Apostle in his doctrinal purity, why would he need anyone to preach to him? He already knows it all. He can't lose his salvation. What's the point?

By the way, dear Alfie, you have once again resorted to Sola Scriptura tactics, which I remind you: you have not proven that theory heresy valid yet.
In Alfred's defense, though, I think you guys might be jumping on something he hasn't really explained for us. Has he really defined what he means by "when I can"? You guys, in your apparent rush to make him look like a hypocrite, have automatically assumed that his phrase, "when I can" means that he goes to church seldom or when he feels like it. Yet he has said no such thing. Alfred has said nothing more than "I go to church when I can", which can have several meanings.

Point taken.

Quote
We have many Orthodox on and off this forum who, because they live a great distance from church, are chronically ill, or are elderly, go to church when they can, which may not be very often because of their particular circumstances. Yet do you judge them for their ability to go to church only infrequently? Do you automatically assume that their motives are less than honorable, as you have so judged Alfred? Why the double standard?

I agree that there is a double standard here, but I believe that Alfred established it.  No Orthodox Christian on this forum claims the authority that Alfred claims for himself.  No Orthodox Christian here follows the principle of sola scriptura, which Alfred follows.  Alfred set the rules, I simply followed them.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1234 on: October 23, 2010, 10:27:41 PM »

Now speaking to Alfred: Alfred, the question of how frequently you go to church and your motivation for going to church infrequently, if you do, are important to this discussion. If you go infrequently out of honorable reasons, such as distance from church or bad health, then your infrequent church attendance gives us no reason to condemn your arguments as the arguments of a hypocrite. But if you go to church infrequently out of laziness, then the charge of hypocrisy is indeed a legitimate judgment that makes your ranting on this board truly lacking in any authority.

I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.
Now that you've admitted this, if bogdan, tuesdayschild, et al., want to continue to press you on your apparent hypocrisy, then I'm not going to challenge them, since they are now totally justified to do so. Such ad hominem would be appropriate, since in our eyes your adherence or lack thereof to the exhortation of Hebrews 10:25 is central to your authority to teach us.

Now that I have seen Alfred speak to us rather than preach at us, I see no need to press him further on this matter.  His humility (not his humiliation) is refreshing.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1235 on: October 23, 2010, 10:30:23 PM »
And none of you meet God's, do you really believe He prefers sacrifice over obedience to His Word the Bible?

 22 Then Samuel said: "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.
 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He also has rejected you from being king."
 (1Sa 15:22-23 NKJ)

While you are all casting about for grounds to condemn me, and not heed any of the scriptures I cited, God is watching, He is seeing all this...

16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another,
And the LORD listened and heard them;
So a book of remembrance was written before Him For those who fear the LORD And who meditate on His name.

 17 "They shall be Mine," says the LORD of hosts, "On the day that I make them My jewels.
And I will spare them As a man spares his own son who serves him."

 18 Then you shall again discern Between the righteous and the wicked,
Between one who serves God And one who does not serve Him.

 (Mal 3:16-18 NKJ)

Refreshing while it lasted.  :-\

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1236 on: October 24, 2010, 12:32:52 AM »

Now speaking to Alfred: Alfred, the question of how frequently you go to church and your motivation for going to church infrequently, if you do, are important to this discussion. If you go infrequently out of honorable reasons, such as distance from church or bad health, then your infrequent church attendance gives us no reason to condemn your arguments as the arguments of a hypocrite. But if you go to church infrequently out of laziness, then the charge of hypocrisy is indeed a legitimate judgment that makes your ranting on this board truly lacking in any authority.

I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.
Now that you've admitted this, if bogdan, tuesdayschild, et al., want to continue to press you on your apparent hypocrisy, then I'm not going to challenge them, since they are now totally justified to do so. Such ad hominem would be appropriate, since in our eyes your adherence or lack thereof to the exhortation of Hebrews 10:25 is central to your authority to teach us.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.
But if you wish to convince us, our standards are indeed very important. If you don't meet them, I'm not sure you have any authority in our eyes to lecture us. We don't grant you the authority to preach, "Do as I say, not as I do."

I grant I should attend more, its a great church, I only hurt myself not going.

But of much greater concern is bowing down before an image, and kissing it, as though God is pleased with such acts.

Your distinction between honor and worship is irrelevant, as is the argument a two dimensional image doesn't violate Deut 4:12ff----BUT The text rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.

Moreover it specifically rules out icons of God in the form of a man, and as Jesus is God and man, you are most definitely in violation.

The  "fine distinctions" you suppose allow you to violate the spirit of God's prohibition, but not its letter, are precisely the kind of reasoning condemned by Christ here:


 16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say,`Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
 17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
 18 "And,`Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
 19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
 20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
 21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
 22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
 (Mat 23:16-22 NKJ)

I never said I wouldn't end up in the Kingdom, in the "nose bleed" section of the arena, when the awards are given out.

But unless you repent of your idolatry, you won't even be in the stadium.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 12:37:27 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1237 on: October 24, 2010, 12:35:59 AM »
(shrug) We disagree with your interpretation of those Scriptures.  Deal with it.
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1238 on: October 24, 2010, 01:23:21 AM »
The only God we worship is the Holy Trinity. Alfred's god says Holy Icons are idols, so it cannot be the same as our God, who (the Holy Spirit via the Seventh Ecumenical Council) anathematized people who say that. So who is the idolator here?

To those who mock and profane the holy images and relics which the holy Church receives as revelations of God's work and of those pleasing to Him, to inspire their beholders with piety, and to arouse them to follow these examples; and to those who say that they are idols, Anathema! ...

As the Prophets saw, as the Apostles taught, as the Church has received, as the Teachers express in dogma, as the inhabited world understands together with them, as grace illumines, as the truth makes clear, as error has been banished, as wisdom makes bold to declare, as Christ has assured, so we think, so we speak, so we preach, honouring Christ our true God, and his Saints, in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in churches, in icons, worshipping and revering the One as God and Lord, and honouring them because of their common Lord as those who are close to him and serve him, and making to them relative veneration.

This is the faith of the Apostles; this is the faith of the Fathers; this is the faith of the Orthodox; this is the faith which has established the Universe.

--The Synodikon

Your distinction between honor and worship is irrelevant, as is the argument a two dimensional image doesn't violate Deut 4:12ff----BUT The text rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.


7. Those who understand Moses, who said, Be attentive to yourselves that on that day, when the Lord God spoke on the mount Horeb, you heard the sound of words, but you saw no likeness, [Psalm 4:15] and know how to answer rightly, that if we see something, we truly see, as the son of thunder taught us, he who was from the beginning, whom we heard, whom we saw, whom we beheld with our own eyes, and our hands touched, concerning the word of life, [1 John 1:1] and to these we bear witness; and again, as the other disciples of the Word, we ate with him and drank with him, not only before his passion, but also after the passion and the resurrection; [Acts 10:41] those who are able to distinguish the precepts in the law from the teaching of grace, and see that he is invisible in the former, but seen and touched in the latter, and that therefore what has been seen and touched is to be depicted in icons and worshipped: May their memory be eternal!

--ibid. (bold mine, italic emphasis in original)

So, can we take from this passage from the Synodikon that, since Alfred obviously cannot distinguish between the Law and Grace, and rejects the transformation of matter that the Incarnation brought, and so continues to subject himself and us to the Law, that he is not only an idolator but a Judaizer as well?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 01:42:16 AM by bogdan »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1239 on: October 24, 2010, 01:28:21 AM »

Now speaking to Alfred: Alfred, the question of how frequently you go to church and your motivation for going to church infrequently, if you do, are important to this discussion. If you go infrequently out of honorable reasons, such as distance from church or bad health, then your infrequent church attendance gives us no reason to condemn your arguments as the arguments of a hypocrite. But if you go to church infrequently out of laziness, then the charge of hypocrisy is indeed a legitimate judgment that makes your ranting on this board truly lacking in any authority.

I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.
Now that you've admitted this, if bogdan, tuesdayschild, et al., want to continue to press you on your apparent hypocrisy, then I'm not going to challenge them, since they are now totally justified to do so. Such ad hominem would be appropriate, since in our eyes your adherence or lack thereof to the exhortation of Hebrews 10:25 is central to your authority to teach us.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.
But if you wish to convince us, our standards are indeed very important. If you don't meet them, I'm not sure you have any authority in our eyes to lecture us. We don't grant you the authority to preach, "Do as I say, not as I do."

I grant I should attend more, its a great church, I only hurt myself not going.
It's like I said once to a coworker who kept trying to lecture me on how I should practice my Christian faith even though she had admitted to having rejected all Christian churches in favor of her own private interpretations of Scripture (some of which bordered on claims that she received private revelations directly from God). One who does not worship with a community of Christians has no authority whatsoever to lecture those of us who do. You do not obey the apostolic command of Hebrews 10:25, so why should I listen to you? Yes, she was deeply offended, but she needed to hear that defense of my faith, just as you do.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 01:30:52 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1240 on: October 24, 2010, 02:34:51 AM »
The only God we worship is the Holy Trinity. Alfred's god says Holy Icons are idols, so it cannot be the same as our God, who (the Holy Spirit via the Seventh Ecumenical Council) anathematized people who say that. So who is the idolator here?

To those who mock and profane the holy images and relics which the holy Church receives as revelations of God's work and of those pleasing to Him, to inspire their beholders with piety, and to arouse them to follow these examples; and to those who say that they are idols, Anathema! ...

As the Prophets saw, as the Apostles taught, as the Church has received, as the Teachers express in dogma, as the inhabited world understands together with them, as grace illumines, as the truth makes clear, as error has been banished, as wisdom makes bold to declare, as Christ has assured, so we think, so we speak, so we preach, honouring Christ our true God, and his Saints, in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in churches, in icons, worshipping and revering the One as God and Lord, and honouring them because of their common Lord as those who are close to him and serve him, and making to them relative veneration.

This is the faith of the Apostles; this is the faith of the Fathers; this is the faith of the Orthodox; this is the faith which has established the Universe.

--The Synodikon

Your distinction between honor and worship is irrelevant, as is the argument a two dimensional image doesn't violate Deut 4:12ff----BUT The text rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.


7. Those who understand Moses, who said, Be attentive to yourselves that on that day, when the Lord God spoke on the mount Horeb, you heard the sound of words, but you saw no likeness, [Psalm 4:15] and know how to answer rightly, that if we see something, we truly see, as the son of thunder taught us, he who was from the beginning, whom we heard, whom we saw, whom we beheld with our own eyes, and our hands touched, concerning the word of life, [1 John 1:1] and to these we bear witness; and again, as the other disciples of the Word, we ate with him and drank with him, not only before his passion, but also after the passion and the resurrection; [Acts 10:41] those who are able to distinguish the precepts in the law from the teaching of grace, and see that he is invisible in the former, but seen and touched in the latter, and that therefore what has been seen and touched is to be depicted in icons and worshipped: May their memory be eternal!

--ibid. (bold mine, italic emphasis in original)

So, can we take from this passage from the Synodikon that, since Alfred obviously cannot distinguish between the Law and Grace, and rejects the transformation of matter that the Incarnation brought, and so continues to subject himself and us to the Law, that he is not only an idolator but a Judaizer as well?

You evaded my simple argument,  your distinctions of worship and honor, 2 dimensional and 3 dimensional, are bogus:



Deut 4:12ff rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint only honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.

Moreover it specifically rules out icons of God in the form of a man, and as Jesus is God and man, you are most definitely in violation.

The  "fine distinctions" you suppose allow you to violate the spirit of God's prohibition, but not its letter, are precisely the kind of reasoning condemned by Christ here:


 16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say,`Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
 17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
 18 "And,`Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
 19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
 20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
 21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
 22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
 (Mat 23:16-22 NKJ)

« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 02:35:34 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1241 on: October 24, 2010, 02:44:47 AM »
Interesting how you use a passage that has nothing to do with Icons to condemn them.

The funny thing, by that passage you show the reasoning behind our veneration of icons.  Which is greater, the icon or the image that icon depicts?  The icon would not be worthy of veneration were not the idea behind the icon (the Incarnate God, the Man who was God) worthy of worship.  Icons of saints would not be worthy of veneration were our saints not icons of Christ. 

Blasphemy against the gold is blasphemy against the temple which sanctifies the gold.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1242 on: October 24, 2010, 03:05:07 AM »
The only God we worship is the Holy Trinity. Alfred's god says Holy Icons are idols, so it cannot be the same as our God, who (the Holy Spirit via the Seventh Ecumenical Council) anathematized people who say that. So who is the idolator here?

To those who mock and profane the holy images and relics which the holy Church receives as revelations of God's work and of those pleasing to Him, to inspire their beholders with piety, and to arouse them to follow these examples; and to those who say that they are idols, Anathema! ...

As the Prophets saw, as the Apostles taught, as the Church has received, as the Teachers express in dogma, as the inhabited world understands together with them, as grace illumines, as the truth makes clear, as error has been banished, as wisdom makes bold to declare, as Christ has assured, so we think, so we speak, so we preach, honouring Christ our true God, and his Saints, in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in churches, in icons, worshipping and revering the One as God and Lord, and honouring them because of their common Lord as those who are close to him and serve him, and making to them relative veneration.

This is the faith of the Apostles; this is the faith of the Fathers; this is the faith of the Orthodox; this is the faith which has established the Universe.

--The Synodikon

Your distinction between honor and worship is irrelevant, as is the argument a two dimensional image doesn't violate Deut 4:12ff----BUT The text rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.


7. Those who understand Moses, who said, Be attentive to yourselves that on that day, when the Lord God spoke on the mount Horeb, you heard the sound of words, but you saw no likeness, [Psalm 4:15] and know how to answer rightly, that if we see something, we truly see, as the son of thunder taught us, he who was from the beginning, whom we heard, whom we saw, whom we beheld with our own eyes, and our hands touched, concerning the word of life, [1 John 1:1] and to these we bear witness; and again, as the other disciples of the Word, we ate with him and drank with him, not only before his passion, but also after the passion and the resurrection; [Acts 10:41] those who are able to distinguish the precepts in the law from the teaching of grace, and see that he is invisible in the former, but seen and touched in the latter, and that therefore what has been seen and touched is to be depicted in icons and worshipped: May their memory be eternal!

--ibid. (bold mine, italic emphasis in original)

So, can we take from this passage from the Synodikon that, since Alfred obviously cannot distinguish between the Law and Grace, and rejects the transformation of matter that the Incarnation brought, and so continues to subject himself and us to the Law, that he is not only an idolator but a Judaizer as well?

You evaded my simple argument,  your distinctions of worship and honor, 2 dimensional and 3 dimensional, are bogus:



Deut 4:12ff rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint only honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.

Moreover it specifically rules out icons of God in the form of a man, and as Jesus is God and man, you are most definitely in violation.

The  "fine distinctions" you suppose allow you to violate the spirit of God's prohibition, but not its letter, are precisely the kind of reasoning condemned by Christ here:


 16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say,`Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
 17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
 18 "And,`Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
 19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
 20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
 21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
 22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
 (Mat 23:16-22 NKJ)


In the end, what does it matter? You have no authority with us.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1243 on: October 24, 2010, 03:12:10 AM »
Interesting how you use a passage that has nothing to do with Icons to condemn them.

The funny thing, by that passage you show the reasoning behind our veneration of icons.  Which is greater, the icon or the image that icon depicts?  The icon would not be worthy of veneration were not the idea behind the icon (the Incarnate God, the Man who was God) worthy of worship.  Icons of saints would not be worthy of veneration were our saints not icons of Christ.  

Blasphemy against the gold is blasphemy against the temple which sanctifies the gold.

Your distinction between 2 dimensional icons, and 3 dimensional images fails, the text forbids EVERY kind of ICON:
BGT  Deuteronomy 4:16 μὴ ἀνομήσητε καὶ ποιήσητε ὑμῖν ἑαυτοῖς γλυπτὸν ὁμοίωμα πᾶσαν εἰκόνα ὁμοίωμα ἀρσενικοῦ ἢ θηλυκοῦ (Deu 4:16 BGT)
LXE  Deuteronomy 4:16 lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure, the likeness of male or female, (Deu 4:16 LXE)

Your distinction between honor and worship, is irrelevant, God forbade making any sort of icon of Himself, He doesn't care what is done with it, He forbade them all regardless of use:

 15 And take good heed to your hearts, for ye saw no similitude in the day in which the Lord spoke to you in Choreb in the mountain out of the midst of the fire:
 16 lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure, the likeness of male or female,
 17 the likeness of any beast of those that are on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird which flies under heaven,
 18 the likeness of any reptile which creeps on the earth, the likeness of any fish of those which are in the waters under the earth;
 19 and lest having looked up to the sky, and having seen the sun and the moon and the stars, and all the heavenly bodies, thou shouldest go astray and worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God has distributed to all the nations under heaven.
 (Deu 4:15-19 LXE)

You argument we can image Christ Incarnate is bogus as any kind of image of God in the form of a man, is prohibited.

UNLESS you deny 1)Jesus is God; 2)He came in human flesh.


Your argument the Jews didn't see the similitude of God but we did see Jesus' incarnate body, is bogus as Moses saw the similitude of God and still  rejected any kind of icon of it be made:

KJV  Numbers 12:8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? (Num 12:8 KJV)

LXE  Exodus 33:23 And I will remove my hand, and then shalt thou see my back parts; but my face shall not appear to thee.
 (Exo 33:23 LXE)

Your fine distinctions of honor not worship, 2 dimensional not three dimensional, are mere sophistry, you ARE violating both the spirit and the letter of the law, no doubt about it.

The judge of all the earth will not treat your sophistry any differently than He did the sophistry of these:

 16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say,`Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
 17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
 18 "And,`Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
 19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
 20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
 21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
 22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
 (Mat 23:16-22 NKJ)

Like you they argued "we really aren't violating God's command: it isn't really (an image or worship) or the gold of the temple.



« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 03:24:56 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1244 on: October 24, 2010, 03:16:16 AM »
The only God we worship is the Holy Trinity. Alfred's god says Holy Icons are idols, so it cannot be the same as our God, who (the Holy Spirit via the Seventh Ecumenical Council) anathematized people who say that. So who is the idolator here?

To those who mock and profane the holy images and relics which the holy Church receives as revelations of God's work and of those pleasing to Him, to inspire their beholders with piety, and to arouse them to follow these examples; and to those who say that they are idols, Anathema! ...

As the Prophets saw, as the Apostles taught, as the Church has received, as the Teachers express in dogma, as the inhabited world understands together with them, as grace illumines, as the truth makes clear, as error has been banished, as wisdom makes bold to declare, as Christ has assured, so we think, so we speak, so we preach, honouring Christ our true God, and his Saints, in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in churches, in icons, worshipping and revering the One as God and Lord, and honouring them because of their common Lord as those who are close to him and serve him, and making to them relative veneration.

This is the faith of the Apostles; this is the faith of the Fathers; this is the faith of the Orthodox; this is the faith which has established the Universe.

--The Synodikon

Your distinction between honor and worship is irrelevant, as is the argument a two dimensional image doesn't violate Deut 4:12ff----BUT The text rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.


7. Those who understand Moses, who said, Be attentive to yourselves that on that day, when the Lord God spoke on the mount Horeb, you heard the sound of words, but you saw no likeness, [Psalm 4:15] and know how to answer rightly, that if we see something, we truly see, as the son of thunder taught us, he who was from the beginning, whom we heard, whom we saw, whom we beheld with our own eyes, and our hands touched, concerning the word of life, [1 John 1:1] and to these we bear witness; and again, as the other disciples of the Word, we ate with him and drank with him, not only before his passion, but also after the passion and the resurrection; [Acts 10:41] those who are able to distinguish the precepts in the law from the teaching of grace, and see that he is invisible in the former, but seen and touched in the latter, and that therefore what has been seen and touched is to be depicted in icons and worshipped: May their memory be eternal!

--ibid. (bold mine, italic emphasis in original)

So, can we take from this passage from the Synodikon that, since Alfred obviously cannot distinguish between the Law and Grace, and rejects the transformation of matter that the Incarnation brought, and so continues to subject himself and us to the Law, that he is not only an idolator but a Judaizer as well?

You evaded my simple argument,  your distinctions of worship and honor, 2 dimensional and 3 dimensional, are bogus:



Deut 4:12ff rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint only honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.

Moreover it specifically rules out icons of God in the form of a man, and as Jesus is God and man, you are most definitely in violation.

The  "fine distinctions" you suppose allow you to violate the spirit of God's prohibition, but not its letter, are precisely the kind of reasoning condemned by Christ here:


 16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say,`Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
 17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
 18 "And,`Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
 19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
 20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
 21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
 22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
 (Mat 23:16-22 NKJ)


In the end, what does it matter? You have no authority with us.

Of course I have no authority, never claimed any. I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.

If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.

But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1245 on: October 24, 2010, 08:50:40 AM »
... those who are able to distinguish the precepts in the law from the teaching of grace, and see that he is invisible in the former, but seen and touched in the latter, and that therefore what has been seen and touched is to be depicted in icons and worshipped: May their memory be eternal!

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1246 on: October 24, 2010, 10:21:05 AM »
Alfred, your opinions about Scripture are irrelevant, since you are not a member of the Church which produced them.
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1247 on: October 24, 2010, 10:59:01 AM »
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.

THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1248 on: October 24, 2010, 12:19:46 PM »
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.

THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.

NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis-à-vis' any expositor in Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, that reply is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent, an evasion of the math proposed.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

Compare:

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
 (1Co 5:5 NKJ)


AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, and disagree with me, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 showing how it doesn't teach what I propose, and give another interpretation of the text I could discuss. ONLY AFTER you argue from it, another interpretation, you might cite other relevant texts in support of your interpretation and against mine.

You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 12:35:40 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline dcommini

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1249 on: October 24, 2010, 12:20:04 PM »

Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.

Do we not? Is it not our duty, as Christians (especially as Orthodox Christians) to lead any stray sheep back into God's fold? Granted, Alfred has come into our forum claiming the want (need?) to proselytize and I do agree that it is he who should be convincing us of his POV, but should we not also try to convince him of our POV since I believe that Alfred is here as a cry of help to us. I think he is trying his best to dissuade himself of the Orthodox Church and I don't think it is working very well on his part. His clinging to his his view of Sola Scriptura (for it is indeed his view as I know plenty of other Protestants who ascribe to different views of SS) because it is his security blanket, if he were to let go and drop his security blanket he is afraid that he would be swept into this different world that is so out of his comfort level. Unfortunately, many Protestants fall prey to this same thing, they try so hard to break out of their comfort levels by doing different things such as food mission work, but when it comes to experiencing God in a different church they draw the line and refuse to break past this part of their comfort claiming that they do not want to fall prey to heresy not realizing that if they just let go of their security blankets and Fully Rely On God (to use a Protestant gimmick) that they would be opened up to whole, new, amazing, and fulfilling world where God is always present in our daily lives.  
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Offline dcommini

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1250 on: October 24, 2010, 12:35:05 PM »
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.

THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.

NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis a vis Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, you are evading the truth of my proposal.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 if you disagreed, showing how it doesn't teach what I say, or citing a text that directly contradicts the conclusion I drew from it. You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.



What you fail to realize, Alfred is that many of us have indeed done what you have asked us to do. We have cited Scripture to disprove your points; your reply is no better than that of a five year old whose only retort is "Nah-uh! You don't believe Scripture!"

Given that, why should we continue to play by your rules when we try to give serious debate and are met with statements so derived of intellect that we would receive better conversation from a deaf, blind, mute?

Yes, we focus on your poor church attendance because to be separate from the church is to be separate from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded to go to church, to show you what you are doing is wrong. Church does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation? 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 12:35:59 PM by dcommini »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1251 on: October 24, 2010, 12:38:03 PM »
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.

THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.

NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis a vis Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, you are evading the truth of my proposal.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 if you disagreed, showing how it doesn't teach what I say, or citing a text that directly contradicts the conclusion I drew from it. You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.



What you fail to realize, Alfred is that many of us have indeed done what you have asked us to do. We have cited Scripture to disprove your points; your reply is no better than that of a five year old whose only retort is "Nah-uh! You don't believe Scripture!"

Given that, why should we continue to play by your rules when we try to give serious debate and are met with statements so derived of intellect that we would receive better conversation from a deaf blind mute?

Yes, we focus on your poor church attendance because to be separate from the church is to be separate from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded to go to church, to show you what you are doing is wrong. Church does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation?  

I will believe you when you cite my precise interpretation of a specific text, and where someone showed from the grammar and syntax of that text, that my interpretation was wrong, or less likely than XYZ interpretation.

Just one, copy paste it here, now, and I will believe you.

ps: Smoking is bad for you. Why not focus on that? What would you say to those who cite this text, that you are defiling the Temple of God:

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1Co 3:17 NKJ)



I have documented from the Talmud, and the Bible, Jesus and the apostles had very similar eschatological beliefs, which resolve the ambiguity some suppose is in the Bible teaching on these things.

Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Mat 13:52 NKJ)

"Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!" (Act 23:6 NKJ)


I proved it here in this thread. Not one of you have addressed any of that proof.

We may as well discuss your cigarette smoking, I bet you treat that issue directly, unlike scripture. I bet you won't focus on my poor attendance at Church in defense of your cigarette smoking, will you?

You will not, because its absurd to focus on my poor attendance at church, as though it is relevant, material and competent to your cigarette smoking.

Its equally absurd you focus on me and ignore what the Scripture says.

In the day of Judgment, God won't judge you treated HIS TRUTH correctly.

I am certain God won't mention my poor church attendance, when discussing these things with you----the way you focused on my poor church attendance, and NOT His Word the Bible, on the Day when God will discuss all  these things with you:

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. (Rom 2:16 KJV)

« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 12:58:59 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline dcommini

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1252 on: October 24, 2010, 12:58:12 PM »
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.

THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.

NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis a vis Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, you are evading the truth of my proposal.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 if you disagreed, showing how it doesn't teach what I say, or citing a text that directly contradicts the conclusion I drew from it. You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.



What you fail to realize, Alfred is that many of us have indeed done what you have asked us to do. We have cited Scripture to disprove your points; your reply is no better than that of a five year old whose only retort is "Nah-uh! You don't believe Scripture!"

Given that, why should we continue to play by your rules when we try to give serious debate and are met with statements so derived of intellect that we would receive better conversation from a deaf blind mute?

Yes, we focus on your poor church attendance because to be separate from the church is to be separate from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded to go to church, to show you what you are doing is wrong. Church does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation?  

I will believe you when you cite my precise interpretation of a specific text, and where someone showed from the grammar and syntax of that text, that my interpretation was wrong, or less likely than XYZ interpretation.

Just one, copy paste it here, now, and I will believe you.

ps: Smoking is bad for you. Why not focus on that?

That has been done already! Very usually within the next few posts where you site scripture. I can not help if you do not read what other people write, I can not do your work for you. If you want the proof you are so desperately seeking then look back through the threads you have started.

Is smoking bad for me? I hadn't noticed the Surgeon General's warning, thank you.
http://www.meerschaumstore.com/health.htm this link shows a few studies done that tells how pipe smoking can actually lead to longer life than the general population. Also I drink green tea, which may help stunt cancer. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/green-tea-ward-off-lung-cancer/story?id=9575951
Also, this is advice that I generally follow when I smoke my pipe so as not to make myself sick of cancer.
http://graemets.tripod.com/Safer_Smoking.htm
OblSB

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1253 on: October 24, 2010, 01:03:41 PM »
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.

THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.

NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis a vis Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, you are evading the truth of my proposal.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 if you disagreed, showing how it doesn't teach what I say, or citing a text that directly contradicts the conclusion I drew from it. You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.



What you fail to realize, Alfred is that many of us have indeed done what you have asked us to do. We have cited Scripture to disprove your points; your reply is no better than that of a five year old whose only retort is "Nah-uh! You don't believe Scripture!"

Given that, why should we continue to play by your rules when we try to give serious debate and are met with statements so derived of intellect that we would receive better conversation from a deaf blind mute?

Yes, we focus on your poor church attendance because to be separate from the church is to be separate from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded to go to church, to show you what you are doing is wrong. Church does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation?  

I will believe you when you cite my precise interpretation of a specific text, and where someone showed from the grammar and syntax of that text, that my interpretation was wrong, or less likely than XYZ interpretation.

Just one, copy paste it here, now, and I will believe you.

ps: Smoking is bad for you. Why not focus on that?

That has been done already! Very usually within the next few posts where you site scripture. I can not help if you do not read what other people write, I can not do your work for you. If you want the proof you are so desperately seeking then look back through the threads you have started.

Is smoking bad for me? I hadn't noticed the Surgeon General's warning, thank you.
http://www.meerschaumstore.com/health.htm this link shows a few studies done that tells how pipe smoking can actually lead to longer life than the general population. Also I drink green tea, which may help stunt cancer. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/green-tea-ward-off-lung-cancer/story?id=9575951
Also, this is advice that I generally follow when I smoke my pipe so as not to make myself sick of cancer.
http://graemets.tripod.com/Safer_Smoking.htm

No, it hasn't, hence your inability to copy paste an example.

AND I note you can treat an issue directly, when its NOT the truth of God's Word...

You prove yourself guilty of inconsistency...you will discuss smoking directly, BUT not Scripture texts I propose teach a particular idea...

THAT also could be cited against you in the Day of Judgment...you thereby document you consider the issue of smoking of far greater weight than the ideas being expressed in God's Word the Bible.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2Co 5:10 KJV)


AND there are many who would say your smoking is a sin far greater than my poor church attendance:

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1Co 3:17 KJV)


Following your own logic, nothing you say should be discussed, rather we must focus on your cigarette smoking. If you protest, you are again guity of
inconsistency, not wanting to be treated by the same standard you treat others.

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Mat 7:12 KJV)



Keep talking, your "sin" is just piling up for that Day.

 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. (Mat 23:32 KJV)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 01:13:45 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline dcommini

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1254 on: October 24, 2010, 01:19:54 PM »
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.

THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.

NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis a vis Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, you are evading the truth of my proposal.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 if you disagreed, showing how it doesn't teach what I say, or citing a text that directly contradicts the conclusion I drew from it. You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.



What you fail to realize, Alfred is that many of us have indeed done what you have asked us to do. We have cited Scripture to disprove your points; your reply is no better than that of a five year old whose only retort is "Nah-uh! You don't believe Scripture!"

Given that, why should we continue to play by your rules when we try to give serious debate and are met with statements so derived of intellect that we would receive better conversation from a deaf blind mute?

Yes, we focus on your poor church attendance because to be separate from the church is to be separate from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded to go to church, to show you what you are doing is wrong. Church does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation?  

I will believe you when you cite my precise interpretation of a specific text, and where someone showed from the grammar and syntax of that text, that my interpretation was wrong, or less likely than XYZ interpretation.

Just one, copy paste it here, now, and I will believe you.

ps: Smoking is bad for you. Why not focus on that?

That has been done already! Very usually within the next few posts where you site scripture. I can not help if you do not read what other people write, I can not do your work for you. If you want the proof you are so desperately seeking then look back through the threads you have started.

Is smoking bad for me? I hadn't noticed the Surgeon General's warning, thank you.
http://www.meerschaumstore.com/health.htm this link shows a few studies done that tells how pipe smoking can actually lead to longer life than the general population. Also I drink green tea, which may help stunt cancer. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/green-tea-ward-off-lung-cancer/story?id=9575951
Also, this is advice that I generally follow when I smoke my pipe so as not to make myself sick of cancer.
http://graemets.tripod.com/Safer_Smoking.htm

No, it hasn't, hence your inability to copy paste an example.

AND I note you can treat an issue directly, when its NOT the truth of God's Word...

You are are guilty of inconsistency...you will discuss smoking, BUT not the texts I propose teach a particular idea...

THAT also could be cited against you in the Day of Judgment...you thereby document you consider the issue of smoking of far greater weight than the ideas being expressed in God's Word the Bible.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
 (2Co 5:10 KJV)

Why, Alfred do you refuse to even look back at the pages of yours posts? I already told you that I was not doing your work for you. Others have done as you have asked yet you turn a blind eye! Why should I then do the same thing and expect different results? To do so would be foolhardy! Why do we need to keep going back and showing you your wrong when you don't believe what is right in front of your eyes? That is not evasion on our part, rather yours.

I have discussed what Scripture you try to teach us, we all have. You, however can only fall back on an argument as old as time itself, "No, you're wrong because I say you are!" Which is exactly what you are doing when you try to force your view of Sola Scriptura on us. Yes, it is your view for if you do research you will find that there are very different views on what Sola Scriptura is and each pertaining to that person own interpretation. Your interpretation differs from our own so what good is it to discuss Scripture with you when you do not even try to see things from our point of view? You already have your mind made up before you even start discussing anything instead of actually trying to understand what it is we teach! I refuse to play your petty game by your rules and because of this you say I can not prove you wrong when, playing by your rules I did prove you wrong, yet you refused to see.

Now, please tell me, why should we continue to entertain your discussions (although I use that term loosely) when it is evident that you are not willing to see the Truth we have given you. (I know you're are going to try to say because we have not given you any Truth, but everybody here knows that is bullocks (including yourself, Alfred))

Stop running from the path God has set before you, Alfred, lest He do to you as He did to Jonah. We all know that you yearn for the Orthodox faith, but your fear of truly experiencing God and all He has to offer is what is keeping you away. Come home, Alfred, and ease your suffering.
OblSB

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1255 on: October 24, 2010, 01:27:00 PM »
Yes, we focus on your poor church attendance because to be separate from the church is to be separate from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded to go to church, to show you what you are doing is wrong. Church does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation?  

Yes, we focus on your cigarette smoking because to defile the Temple of God with nicotine and other poisons is to separate yourself from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded not to defile our body, to show you what you are doing is wrong. God does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right about smoking to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation?  

Remember, it is written:

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1Co 3:17 NKJ)

AND

 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Mat 7:12 KJV)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 01:35:05 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1256 on: October 24, 2010, 01:39:52 PM »


AND there are many who would say your smoking is a sin far greater than my poor church attendance:

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1Co 3:17 KJV)



Interesting your use of a verse prohibiting attacks the on unity of the Church to attack smoking.  It is usages of Scripture in attacking and condemning things that were never mentioned in the text that is the reason I quit attending Evangelical churches.  Scripture taken out of context can mean anything.

Quote
Following your own logic, nothing you say should be discussed, rather we must focus on your cigarette smoking.

Interesting as well that you see smoke and automatically assume "cigarette", when he clearly stated pipe, as well as stating linking to the various Surgeon General reports on pipe smoking that show the harm is minimal (there's no safe form of tobacco, true, but there's no safe form of meat, vegetable, or in our day and age, air).
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 01:40:15 PM by FormerReformer »
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Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1257 on: October 24, 2010, 01:41:55 PM »
 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Mat 7:12 KJV)

In keeping with that, as I want all to speak truth of God to me, I must object to the idea this text is relevant to cigarette smoking:

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1Co 3:17 NKJ)

 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their own craftiness";
 (1Co 3:10-19 NKJ)

The context clearly shows Paul refers to false teaching, THAT is what defiles, the "wisdom" of this age that is not according to Christ. Paul is repeating what Christ said about this:

 16 So Jesus said, "Are you also still without understanding?
 17 "Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated?
 18 "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.
 19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.
 20 "These are the things which defile a man,
 (Mat 15:16-20 NKJ)

So I disagree with those Christians who would suggest cigarette smoking is defiling the temple of God.

It does not follow smoking is a good habit. I gave it up years ago, glad I did.

I didn't use will power to quit, I used desire. Whenever I desired a cigarette, I focused on the oxygen tank smoking would force me to carry with me to breathe.

The desire to be "oxygen tank free" was greater than my desire to smoke.

AND for the first few days I used nicotine patches to get over my physical addiction to smoking...but only for a few days.

The desire to NOT carry an oxygen tank was far greater, and still is, than any desire to smoke...so quitting was actually quite easy.



« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 01:53:59 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline dcommini

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1258 on: October 24, 2010, 01:45:10 PM »
Yes, we focus on your poor church attendance because to be separate from the church is to be separate from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded to go to church, to show you what you are doing is wrong. Church does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation?  

Yes, we focus on your cigarette smoking because to defile the Temple of God with nicotine and other poisons is to separate yourself from the Holy Spirit and communion with other Christians. We have even shown in Scripture where we are commanded not to defile your body, to show you what you are doing is wrong. God does not seem to be as high a priority for you as proving yourself right about smoking to others. Why should we listen to you when you have pointed out yourself that you are not aligned with the Scripture and in error? Please, tell me why we should continue to debate with you even though we have never been in any great need to carry on this debauchery of serious conversation? 

Remember, it is written:

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1Co 3:17 NKJ)



Too bad I don't smoke cigarettes. If you would actually read my post you would see that I say I smoke a pipe and even had links to show that pipe smoking can lead to a longer life than non-smokers. How, then can you say that I am defiling my body? If this is how you misread posts, one can only imagine how you misread Scripture. Have I said that smoking is right? No I have not, do I need to convince myself that smoking is right? I do not. As it stands the evidence is very one sided when it comes to smoking of any kind and the harmful effect supposedly caused thereof. So, since it is very inconclusive that smoking a pipe is indeed defiling my body, how can I be going against God's command?
OblSB

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1259 on: October 24, 2010, 01:47:03 PM »
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Mat 7:12 KJV)

In keeping with that, as I want all to speak truth of God to me, I must object to the idea this text is relevant to cigarette smoking:

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1Co 3:17 NKJ)

 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their own craftiness";
 (1Co 3:10-19 NKJ)

The context clearly shows Paul refers to false teaching, THAT is what defiles, the "wisdom" of this age that is not according to Christ. Paul is repeating what Christ said about this:

 16 So Jesus said, "Are you also still without understanding?
 17 "Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated?
 18 "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.
 19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.
 20 "These are the things which defile a man,
 (Mat 15:16-20 NKJ)

So I disagree with those Christians who would suggest cigarette smoking is defiling the temple of God.

It does not follow smoking is a good habit. I gave it up years ago, glad I did.





Glad we agree on cigarette smoking, but can we please discuss pipe smoking? Or are you going to remain ignorant of what I said - like you remain ignorant of what God said - to further you poor arguments?
OblSB

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