Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 198181 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #945 on: October 14, 2010, 02:06:50 PM »
Nope. The Word of God Incarnate is Jesus Christ. Since the Church is Christ's Body, the Church has supreme authority. The Bible's authority—which is great, to be sure—is derived from the Church. Same with the Fathers' authority and Iconography's authority.

And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.
I think you're missing a fundamental difference, however. These passages speak of the "word of God", not the "Word of God". It is you who are capitalizing the W in "Word of God" to make of the Scriptures more than the Scriptures make of themselves. By capitalizing the W in "word of God", you make a personal pronoun out of "word of God" that implies an identity with the person of Jesus Christ that the Scriptures themselves don't support. Additionally, by using the definitive article "THE" together with the uppercase "W", you imply an exclusivity that cannot possibly be applied in a logical way to both the Scriptures AND to our Lord--only one can be the Word of God, and that is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Simply call the Scriptures the "word of God" and call Jesus alone the "Word of God", and you don't deviate from how the Scriptures view each.

Your ditty about he definite article makes no sense, here the Bible is called literally  τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ  (Mar 7:13 BYZ), "the word of the God"
Selective reading strikes again! LMAO! :laugh: You totally miss the fact that I mentioned your use of the definite article only in connection with your practice of capitalizing the W in Word of God when you apply the label to the Scriptures. If we can't trust you to read even our words correctly, how the **** can we trust you to read the Scriptures correctly?

Mark 7:13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
 (Mar 7:13 NKJ)
BTW, Alfred, this passage from the Gospel of Mark does not identify the word of God with the Bible.

Obviously Jesus is NOT saying they made Jesus of none effect.

So also these texts, even when "the" article τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ  appears, "THE word of God" applies to scripture:

NKJ  Luke 5:1 So it was, as the multitude pressed about Him to hear the word of God, that He stood by the Lake of Gennesaret, (Luk 5:1 NKJ)

NKJ  Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it." (Luk 8:21 NKJ)


NKJ  Luke 11:28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" (Luk 11:28 NKJ)

Your theory is incorrect.

The word of God applies to Jesus because He reveals God, just as Scripture is the "word of God" because it reveals God.

But this is not confusing the two, I do not make the Bible Jesus Christ.
So now you call both the Scriptures and Jesus Christ the word of God. Word of God... word of God... Does not that simple uppercase/lowercase difference make any difference to you? I guess not.

Its a wonder any of you state such absurdity in public...surely you realize such babble is  now immortalized on the NET...and you have all made yourself open to being cited as examples of the inanity coreligionists will resort to... lest at any time they address an issue that contradicts their man made traditions.
LMAO! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: That has to be about the funniest thing I've read on the Internet the past few days. You mind if I use this as material for my next humorous speech?

I capitalize the Word of God only in because I esteem it greater than the word of Man...period. You made an argument from this, to say Jesus is Scripture?
No. I was just pointing out the logical implications of your practice of capitalizing the W when you identify the Scriptures as the Word of God, rather than as the word of God. This identity of the Scriptures with Christ may not be what you WANT to communicate, but it ends up being what you DO communicate.

The Jews were not making Christ of non effect through their tradition, He was unknown to them until Christ's ministry. They are making the "Word of God" the Bible of none effect, that was Christ's point, He cites the scripture they made of non effect, and HE called this scripture "the word of God" (for your sake, I didn't capitalize it)

Mark 7:13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."

What "Moses said" = "word of God" in His argument against tradition that contradicts God's Word:

10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
 (Mar 7:10-13 KJV)

Therefore Exo 20:12 & Deu 5:16 = "the word of God", NOW contradict Jesus if you can:

 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. (Exo 20:12 KJV)

 16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. (Deu 5:16 KJV)

etc.

AND yes, you folks arguing against Scripture being the "word of God" makes you all seem like lunatics to every other Christian.
Actually, we've never argued that the Scriptures are not the "word of God". Why would we argue so doggedly against what we believe? That would be lunacy. What so many have argued on this thread is that the Scriptures are not the "Word of God", that only Jesus Christ is worthy of that title. The decision whether to capitalize the W does make a huge difference grammatically.

Keep it up, don't stop now.
Somehow I can imagine that the Christian thing to do would be to help other Christians NOT embarrass themselves. ::)

You folks are crossing the line into lunacy in your quest to "win one for Orthodoxy."
Actually, the only person who has stated on this thread his definite intent to win someone to his point of view is you.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 02:26:40 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Online Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,738
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #946 on: October 14, 2010, 03:46:20 PM »
double post

double down on lunacy is ok...its not you folks who are wrong, its the rest of the world.

It's called speaking in tongues. Unless you know the Logos it may as well be a different language to ya.

Offline bogdan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #947 on: October 14, 2010, 03:47:14 PM »
double post

double down on lunacy is ok...its not you folks who are wrong, its the rest of the world.

Not by our own personal merits, only because we are fortunate enough to be members of the visible and physical Body of Christ, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, the pillar and ground of truth.

You, and the rest of the world, are free to join us at any time. :)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 03:48:09 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #948 on: October 14, 2010, 05:22:38 PM »

AND yes, you folks arguing against Scripture being the "word of God" makes you all seem like lunatics to every other Christian.
Actually, we've never argued that the Scriptures are not the "word of God". Why would we argue so doggedly against what we believe? That would be lunacy. What so many have argued on this thread is that the Scriptures are not the "Word of God", that only Jesus Christ is worthy of that title. The decision whether to capitalize the W does make a huge difference grammatically.

Reply #825 on: October 09, 2010, 03:32:21 AM
PeterTheAleut

In Summary:
The Scriptures are NOT the Word of God; rather, they bear witness to Him who is the Word of God. Likewise, Tradition is NOT the mere words of men; rather, it is the guidance of the Holy Spirit who bears witness to Him who is the Word of God. The Word of God is Jesus Christ. Until you understand and address this that I've said about the Word of God and about the Scripture and Tradition that bears witness to Him you're merely talking past us by proceeding from totally different definitions of foundational terms. You need to first prove to us that the Scriptures are the Word of God, and that we are wrong to attach this title to Jesus Christ, for your defense of sola scriptura to be convincing.


You folks need to get your story straight...stop taking up any idea you believe contradicts me, and start defending what the Orthodox actually believe.

Some of your rebuttals of ANYTHING I say, could be cited as proof even those who call themselves Orthodox don't believe it!

Don't you realize, if you argue for something the Orthodox do not believe, you thereby argue against Orthodoxy?


Most of you engage in "slop apologetics," respond in "knee jerk fashion" to any claim I make, and will argue a heretical position if you think its the easiest rebuttal to make...in a mad quest to prove me wrong...to have a "win" no matter the cost.


There is a cost. When others not sharing your desire for a win, reads statements like "the Bible is not the Word of God," which you and others repeated often, they are turned off to Orthodoxy immediately.

You do more harm for your cause "making stuff up" to hurl at me, than I do. They expect me to say xyz about Orthodoxy, but when it is made to seem apostate, or odd by its alleged defenders, then that is much more weighty.


You might wonder, what's he saying, if that is so, why isn't he happy?

Because I'm not trying to make Orthodoxy seem bad...if it weren't for icons, I might have been Orthodox. I only want God's reign in your personal life to be total, that nothing be in His way to the Throne of your heart, that in all things, Jesus the absolutely righteous One, is reigning.

I'd like for you all to be born again, to meet Jesus Christ in person, and not as a prototype far away.

Whether you remain Orthodox, or join some other church, is not my concern. That is between you and God.

I have had a wonderful 30+ years as a born again Christian, and its an experience I want to share with others, that is my only goal.

We may still disagree on stuff, that I expect will be the case...but we won't disagree on Jesus, He is Wonderful.


Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20 KJV)

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. (Joh 14:23 NKJ)

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
(Pro 30:4 KJV)

« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 05:48:03 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #949 on: October 14, 2010, 06:38:52 PM »

AND yes, you folks arguing against Scripture being the "word of God" makes you all seem like lunatics to every other Christian.
Actually, we've never argued that the Scriptures are not the "word of God". Why would we argue so doggedly against what we believe? That would be lunacy. What so many have argued on this thread is that the Scriptures are not the "Word of God", that only Jesus Christ is worthy of that title. The decision whether to capitalize the W does make a huge difference grammatically.

Reply #825 on: October 09, 2010, 03:32:21 AM
PeterTheAleut

In Summary:
The Scriptures are NOT the Word of God; rather, they bear witness to Him who is the Word of God. Likewise, Tradition is NOT the mere words of men; rather, it is the guidance of the Holy Spirit who bears witness to Him who is the Word of God. The Word of God is Jesus Christ. Until you understand and address this that I've said about the Word of God and about the Scripture and Tradition that bears witness to Him you're merely talking past us by proceeding from totally different definitions of foundational terms. You need to first prove to us that the Scriptures are the Word of God, and that we are wrong to attach this title to Jesus Christ, for your defense of sola scriptura to be convincing.


You folks need to get your story straight...stop taking up any idea you believe contradicts me, and start defending what the Orthodox actually believe.

Some of your rebuttals of ANYTHING I say, could be cited as proof even those who call themselves Orthodox don't believe it!

Don't you realize, if you argue for something the Orthodox do not believe, you thereby argue against Orthodoxy?
What makes you think you know Orthodoxy well enough to judge that we're being unfaithful to it? We've tried many times to correct your misconceptions of what we believe, yet you never listen. If by this point you're still unable to see such things as the difference we make between a W and a w, then I'm not sure we can say anything more to take away your blindness and hardness of heart.

Most of you engage in "slop apologetics," respond in "knee jerk fashion" to any claim I make, and will argue a heretical position if you think its the easiest rebuttal to make...in a mad quest to prove me wrong...to have a "win" no matter the cost.


There is a cost. When others not sharing your desire for a win, reads statements like "the Bible is not the Word of God," which you and others repeated often, they are turned off to Orthodoxy immediately.

You do more harm for your cause "making stuff up" to hurl at me, than I do. They expect me to say xyz about Orthodoxy, but when it is made to seem apostate, or odd by its alleged defenders, then that is much more weighty.
Frankly, Alfred, if such persons are unwilling to investigate our claims to see what we really mean by them, then I'm not sure it's such a bad thing to see such persons avoid us.

You might wonder, what's he saying, if that is so, why isn't he happy?

Because I'm not trying to make Orthodoxy seem bad...if it weren't for icons, I might have been Orthodox. I only want God's reign in your personal life to be total, that nothing be in His way to the Throne of your heart, that in all things, Jesus the absolutely righteous One, is reigning.

I'd like for you all to be born again, to meet Jesus Christ in person, and not as a prototype far away.

Whether you remain Orthodox, or join some other church, is not my concern. That is between you and God.

I have had a wonderful 30+ years as a born again Christian, and its an experience I want to share with others, that is my only goal.

We may still disagree on stuff, that I expect will be the case...but we won't disagree on Jesus, He is Wonderful.


Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20 KJV)

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. (Joh 14:23 NKJ)

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
(Pro 30:4 KJV)
Alfred, many of us were Protestant once. We've experienced the life you talk about. We know it's not the rosy picture you paint for us. There's nothing there for us anymore.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 12:13:06 AM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #950 on: October 14, 2010, 07:22:31 PM »

AND yes, you folks arguing against Scripture being the "word of God" makes you all seem like lunatics to every other Christian.
Actually, we've never argued that the Scriptures are not the "word of God". Why would we argue so doggedly against what we believe? That would be lunacy. What so many have argued on this thread is that the Scriptures are not the "Word of God", that only Jesus Christ is worthy of that title. The decision whether to capitalize the W does make a huge difference grammatically.

Reply #825 on: October 09, 2010, 03:32:21 AM
PeterTheAleut

In Summary:
The Scriptures are NOT the Word of God; rather, they bear witness to Him who is the Word of God. Likewise, Tradition is NOT the mere words of men; rather, it is the guidance of the Holy Spirit who bears witness to Him who is the Word of God. The Word of God is Jesus Christ. Until you understand and address this that I've said about the Word of God and about the Scripture and Tradition that bears witness to Him you're merely talking past us by proceeding from totally different definitions of foundational terms. You need to first prove to us that the Scriptures are the Word of God, and that we are wrong to attach this title to Jesus Christ, for your defense of sola scriptura to be convincing.


You folks need to get your story straight...stop taking up any idea you believe contradicts me, and start defending what the Orthodox actually believe.

Some of your rebuttals of ANYTHING I say, could be cited as proof even those who call themselves Orthodox don't believe it!

Don't you realize, if you argue for something the Orthodox do not believe, you thereby argue against Orthodoxy?


Most of you engage in "slop apologetics," respond in "knee jerk fashion" to any claim I make, and will argue a heretical position if you think its the easiest rebuttal to make...in a mad quest to prove me wrong...to have a "win" no matter the cost.


There is a cost. When others not sharing your desire for a win, reads statements like "the Bible is not the Word of God," which you and others repeated often, they are turned off to Orthodoxy immediately.

You do more harm for your cause "making stuff up" to hurl at me, than I do. They expect me to say xyz about Orthodoxy, but when it is made to seem apostate, or odd by its alleged defenders, then that is much more weighty.


You might wonder, what's he saying, if that is so, why isn't he happy?

Because I'm not trying to make Orthodoxy seem bad...if it weren't for icons, I might have been Orthodox. I only want God's reign in your personal life to be total, that nothing be in His way to the Throne of your heart, that in all things, Jesus the absolutely righteous One, is reigning.

I'd like for you all to be born again, to meet Jesus Christ in person, and not as a prototype far away.

Whether you remain Orthodox, or join some other church, is not my concern. That is between you and God.

I have had a wonderful 30+ years as a born again Christian, and its an experience I want to share with others, that is my only goal.

We may still disagree on stuff, that I expect will be the case...but we won't disagree on Jesus, He is Wonderful.


Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20 KJV)

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. (Joh 14:23 NKJ)

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
(Pro 30:4 KJV)



It is truly sad that the only thing keeping you from Orthodoxy is the icons which we have repeatedly shown proofs for. I pray that God may open your eyes and bring you into the one, unified body of Christ.
OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline bogdan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #951 on: October 14, 2010, 08:48:12 PM »
Alfred, many of us were Protestant once. We've experienced the life you talk about. We know it's not the rosy picture you paint for us. There's nothing there for us anymore.

Amen!

Alfred, most of us need no education about your belief system, since most of us once held the same beliefs as you. Many of us were taught heavy-duty apologetics from an early age (Boy was I! Catechism classes after church every Sunday for years and years!)

We have already compared our previous dearly-held Protestant beliefs with the teachings of the Orthodox Church...and converted soon thereafter. You're not going to convince us to apostatize that easily.

Quote
He is Wonderful
Aw, that was one of my favorite songs back in the day. Alleluia, salvation, and glory...

Offline Fabio Leite

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,790
    • Vida Ortodoxa
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #952 on: October 14, 2010, 09:09:58 PM »
Obviously Alfred long to convert to the Church of Christ, abandoning the incomplete faith he currently has. Like an enamorated boy who awkwardly just criticizes his beloved, he just wants to stay nearby the Orthodox Faith, feel its power in his heart. There is some fear, it is strange, it is a pull and a calling that goes against what his rational mind puts before him, but what does love care for that? Christ brought him here to complete and fulfill his conversion, to make whole the self-giving that so far is partial, to make him be born again. It's been a troublesome and painful labour, but all the stage he sets is directly proportional to the pull to the Orthodox Faith of the Apostles and of Scripture. That is why he was called here, that is why he stays.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #953 on: October 15, 2010, 08:40:31 AM »
Evidently Orthodox tradition "Born again" (John 3:3) is a "process" prevents you folks from experiencing it.

It has nothing to do with sacraments:

 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Act 10:47 NKJ)

It has everything to do with belief:

 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" (Act 19:2 NKJ)

Because our first birth was not a process, the second birth cannot be.

That is made clear by Nicodemus who understood Christ's γεννηθῇ (Joh 3:3 BYZ) as referring to actual birth event itself, and not a process.

That is the natural meaning of the word:

1. gennao (γεννάω, 1080), “to beget,” in the passive voice, “to be born,” is chiefly used of men “begetting” children, Matt. 1:2-16; more rarely of women “begetting” children, Luke 1:13, 57, “brought forth” (for “delivered,” in this v., see No. 4); 23:29; John 16:21, “is delivered of,” and of the child, “is born” (for “is in travail” see No. 4). In Gal. 4:24, it is used allegorically, to contrast Jews under bondage to the Law, and spiritual Israel, kjv, “gendereth,” rv, “bearing children,” to contrast the natural birth of Ishmael and the supernatural birth of Isaac. In Matt. 1:20 it is used of conception, “that which is conceived in her.” It is used of the act of God in the birth of Christ, Acts 13:33; Heb. 1:5; 5:5, quoted from Psalm 2:7, none of which indicate that Christ became the Son of God at His birth.  
It is used metaphorically (a) in the writings of the apostle John, of the gracious act of God in conferring upon those who believe the nature and disposition of “children,” imparting to them spiritual life, John 3:3, 5, 7; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18; (b) of one who by means of preaching the gospel becomes the human instrument in the impartation of spiritual life, 1 Cor. 4:15; Philem. 10; (c) in 2 Pet. 2:12, with reference to the evil men whom the apostle is describing, the rv rightly has “born mere animals” (kjv, “natural brute beasts”); (d) in the sense of gendering strife, 2 Tim. 2:23. See A, No. 3, bring, conceive, deliver, gender, spring.  
Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W. (1996). Vine's complete expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words (2:57). Nashville: T. Nelson.

 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 (Joh 3:3-7 NKJ)

« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 08:43:23 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Fabio Leite

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,790
    • Vida Ortodoxa
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #954 on: October 15, 2010, 08:50:15 AM »
Stop resisting Alfred. You know very well you are rationalizing to convince yourself and not us. You know that you will come out of holy waters of Orthodox baptism, your first and only true baptism, *truly* born again in spirit and in flesh, in belief and in deeds. You sense the feebleness of a merely argumentative faith as well as you feel the solidness of the Church of Christ in Orthodoxy. What you had so far was good and fine, but you know it has been baby food and that in Orthodoxy you will have the fulness of adult's food. The doors are open to you, we, our brothers long to receive you, and our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father and His Holy Spirit are calling you in your heart. Put down the plethora of words and with contriction and joy step in that blessed pond that is the gate to the Kingdom of God *concretely* here on Earth, and not just a construct of words. The door is open, the Host has invited you to be His guest. Return to your Father's home, for He waits for you with a golden robe and will call His servants to prepare a party for you. Come back home, Alfred.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #955 on: October 15, 2010, 09:20:36 AM »
Stop resisting Alfred. You know very well you are rationalizing to convince yourself and not us. You know that you will come out of holy waters of Orthodox baptism, your first and only true baptism, *truly* born again in spirit and in flesh, in belief and in deeds. You sense the feebleness of a merely argumentative faith as well as you feel the solidness of the Church of Christ in Orthodoxy. What you had so far was good and fine, but you know it has been baby food and that in Orthodoxy you will have the fulness of adult's food. The doors are open to you, we, our brothers long to receive you, and our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father and His Holy Spirit are calling you in your heart. Put down the plethora of words and with contriction and joy step in that blessed pond that is the gate to the Kingdom of God *concretely* here on Earth, and not just a construct of words. The door is open, the Host has invited you to be His guest. Return to your Father's home, for He waits for you with a golden robe and will call His servants to prepare a party for you. Come back home, Alfred.

I consider Orthodox inability to comprehend God's basic dogma a sign it lacks the Holy Spirit:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. (1Co 2:12 NKJ)

The Orthodox claim to follow apostolic doctrine, but then one must ask, which Orthodox Church. You folks are so confused as to what precisely apostolic tradition is, you cannot produce a commentary on the scriptures together.

Such confusion would be norm for a new believer, but not those who have had 2,000 years to figure it out.

I know the reason for your failure, rejection of God's Word the Bible.

By esteeming the words of men as equal to the word of God, you have utterly confused yourselves.

We must begin with the basics, clearly you aren't ready for meat.

We receive the Holy Spirit WHEN WE BELIEVE, not at the end of a process, THAT is apostolic doctrine:

he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? (Act 19:2 NKJ)

AND receiving the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with sacraments:

"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Act 10:47 NKJ)

Its not "believe in Jesus and you will begin the process of being saved."

Its: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved (Act 16:31 NKJ)


« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 09:28:02 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #956 on: October 15, 2010, 09:33:20 AM »
Evidently Orthodox tradition "Born again" (John 3:3) is a "process" prevents you folks from experiencing it.

Here we go again. Picking fights out of the blue.  ::)

Offline bogdan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #957 on: October 15, 2010, 09:39:20 AM »
Stop resisting Alfred. You know very well you are rationalizing to convince yourself and not us. You know that you will come out of holy waters of Orthodox baptism, your first and only true baptism, *truly* born again in spirit and in flesh, in belief and in deeds. You sense the feebleness of a merely argumentative faith as well as you feel the solidness of the Church of Christ in Orthodoxy. What you had so far was good and fine, but you know it has been baby food and that in Orthodoxy you will have the fulness of adult's food. The doors are open to you, we, our brothers long to receive you, and our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father and His Holy Spirit are calling you in your heart. Put down the plethora of words and with contriction and joy step in that blessed pond that is the gate to the Kingdom of God *concretely* here on Earth, and not just a construct of words. The door is open, the Host has invited you to be His guest. Return to your Father's home, for He waits for you with a golden robe and will call His servants to prepare a party for you. Come back home, Alfred.

I consider Orthodox inability to comprehend God's basic dogma a sign it lacks the Holy Spirit:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. (1Co 2:12 NKJ)

The Orthodox claim to follow apostolic doctrine, but then one must ask, which Orthodox Church. You folks are so confused as to what precisely apostolic tradition is, you cannot produce a commentary on the scriptures together.

Such confusion would be norm for a new believer, but not those who have had 2,000 years to figure it out.

I know the reason for your failure, rejection of God's Word the Bible.

By esteeming the words of men as equal to the word of God, you have utterly confused yourselves.

We must begin with the basics, clearly you aren't ready for meat.

We receive the Holy Spirit WHEN WE BELIEVE, not at the end of a process, THAT is apostolic doctrine:

he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? (Act 19:2 NKJ)

AND receiving the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with sacraments:

"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Act 10:47 NKJ)

Its not "believe in Jesus and you will begin the process of being saved."

Its: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved (Act 16:31 NKJ)




Prooftext City! We're back to Sola Scriptura, which you still have not proven.

Offline genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,906
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #958 on: October 15, 2010, 10:01:22 AM »
Evidently Orthodox tradition "Born again" (John 3:3) is a "process" prevents you folks from experiencing it.

Here we go again. Picking fights out of the blue.  ::)
Yes, and I would agree with Fabio Leite as well. Alfred can bring no real arguments, so he's having to invent new ones. And I do understand. After I was first exposed to Orthodoxy, I knew it was for me, but because my roots were so deep in my Evangelical church with which I had no real beefs, most of my exploration time was to try to find reasons NOT to convert. But I wanted what Orthodoxy holds more than I wanted to argue with it.

Alfred, I can't imagine that you have been left untouched by what you have read in these threads. I've said before and I will repeat, that you are to be commended for your zeal and for your determination to serve God. The riches of the Orthodox faith are so much greater than whatever you might be clinging to. Fabio Leite said it well:  Come back home, Alfred.

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #959 on: October 15, 2010, 10:30:44 AM »
Evidently Orthodox tradition "Born again" (John 3:3) is a "process" prevents you folks from experiencing it.

Here we go again. Picking fights out of the blue.  ::)
Yes, and I would agree with Fabio Leite as well. Alfred can bring no real arguments, so he's having to invent new ones. And I do understand. After I was first exposed to Orthodoxy, I knew it was for me, but because my roots were so deep in my Evangelical church with which I had no real beefs, most of my exploration time was to try to find reasons NOT to convert. But I wanted what Orthodoxy holds more than I wanted to argue with it.

Alfred, I can't imagine that you have been left untouched by what you have read in these threads. I've said before and I will repeat, that you are to be commended for your zeal and for your determination to serve God. The riches of the Orthodox faith are so much greater than whatever you might be clinging to. Fabio Leite said it well:  Come back home, Alfred.


No arguments?

This is a direct broadside that sinks Orthodoxy:

We receive the Holy Spirit WHEN WE BELIEVE, not at the end of a process, THAT is apostolic doctrine:

he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? (Act 19:2 NKJ)

AND receiving the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with sacraments:

"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Act 10:47 NKJ)

Its not "believe in Jesus and you will begin the process of being saved."

Its: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved (Act 16:31 NKJ)

AND this is not "out of the blue," the thread's title shows how relevant it is.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 10:31:57 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #960 on: October 15, 2010, 12:06:33 PM »
Evidently Orthodox tradition "Born again" (John 3:3) is a "process" prevents you folks from experiencing it.

Here we go again. Picking fights out of the blue.  ::)
Yes, and I would agree with Fabio Leite as well. Alfred can bring no real arguments, so he's having to invent new ones. And I do understand. After I was first exposed to Orthodoxy, I knew it was for me, but because my roots were so deep in my Evangelical church with which I had no real beefs, most of my exploration time was to try to find reasons NOT to convert. But I wanted what Orthodoxy holds more than I wanted to argue with it.

Alfred, I can't imagine that you have been left untouched by what you have read in these threads. I've said before and I will repeat, that you are to be commended for your zeal and for your determination to serve God. The riches of the Orthodox faith are so much greater than whatever you might be clinging to. Fabio Leite said it well:  Come back home, Alfred.


No arguments?

We could blow your opinions out of the water if we wanted to. But we're not inclined to do so, because we don't want to expose the sacraments to your defilement.

Offline czzham

  • ...at work in the sonic Monastery...
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
  • ...in pursuit of Divine Mystery...
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #961 on: October 15, 2010, 12:20:06 PM »

"We could blow your opinions out of the water if we wanted to. But we're not inclined to do so, because we don't want to expose the sacraments to your defilement."

Amen.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 12:21:11 PM by czzham »
Non-liturgical lyrics are wasted space between solos.

Offline recent convert

  • Orthodox Chrisitan
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,304
  • St.David of Wales pray for us
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #962 on: October 15, 2010, 12:24:56 PM »
The Lord Jesus Christ breathed the Holy Spirit to St.Peter in John 20. The Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius & household at St. Peter's preaching and the same Holy Spirit established the sacrament for baptism which perpetuates the gifts given to the apostles. The premise of this thread is apparently insanity.
Antiochian OC NA

Beware the wrath of the guardians of "love."

Offline Thankful

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 263
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #963 on: October 15, 2010, 01:20:16 PM »
Because our first birth was not a process, the second birth cannot be.

 :o

You've obviously never been pregnant, given birth and thereafter raised a child.  No baby has ever dropped in my lap just because I believed in one. Birth is one part of a long process through and through. It starts with desire and builds from there, with the actual birth a true bringing forth to new life -- but its success dependent upon all the other parts of the process as well.  

ETA: And if you want to solely talk about the baby coming into the world through delivery from a woman's body, we're still talking process.  Ask anyone who has given birth.  It starts hours and hours (sometimes days) before actual delivery, and continues for weeks afterward (until the body stops bleeding).  Sorry, your analogy didn't work.  You actually created a wonderful picture of being born again at baptism. 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 01:25:40 PM by Thankful »

Offline theistgal

  • Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,237
  • don't even go there!
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #964 on: October 15, 2010, 01:45:17 PM »
Because our first birth was not a process, the second birth cannot be.

 :o

You've obviously never been pregnant, given birth and thereafter raised a child.  No baby has ever dropped in my lap just because I believed in one. Birth is one part of a long process through and through. It starts with desire and builds from there, with the actual birth a true bringing forth to new life -- but its success dependent upon all the other parts of the process as well.  

ETA: And if you want to solely talk about the baby coming into the world through delivery from a woman's body, we're still talking process.  Ask anyone who has given birth.  It starts hours and hours (sometimes days) before actual delivery, and continues for weeks afterward (until the body stops bleeding).  Sorry, your analogy didn't work.  You actually created a wonderful picture of being born again at baptism. 

Can I nominate this for POST OF THE MONTH?  Awesome!  8)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Thankful

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 263
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #965 on: October 15, 2010, 01:50:59 PM »

Its not "believe in Jesus and you will begin the process of being saved."

Its: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved (Act 16:31 NKJ)


A quick check of your local Strong's Concordance will quickly show you that the Greek word for "saved" (sōzō) used here, and in other places in the Scriptures, can mean both a one-time saving as well as a process of salvation. Other ways this same word is translated include "make whole," "heal," and "be whole."  So, yes, we can believe on the Lord Jesus Christ -- and in us, He begins the process of making us whole, healing us.  What reason do we have to go with the incomplete/partial interpretation of this Scripture, when the Scriptures, the Apostles and the Fathers have clearly shown us that salvation is in fact a process?  

ETA - Thanks, theistgal.  I may not be the most intellectual person on the planet, but having given birth more than a handful of times, I can honestly say I'm a bit familiar with this topic.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 01:56:47 PM by Thankful »

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #966 on: October 15, 2010, 01:53:34 PM »
Evidently Orthodox tradition "Born again" (John 3:3) is a "process" prevents you folks from experiencing it.

Here we go again. Picking fights out of the blue.  ::)
Yes, and I would agree with Fabio Leite as well. Alfred can bring no real arguments, so he's having to invent new ones. And I do understand. After I was first exposed to Orthodoxy, I knew it was for me, but because my roots were so deep in my Evangelical church with which I had no real beefs, most of my exploration time was to try to find reasons NOT to convert. But I wanted what Orthodoxy holds more than I wanted to argue with it.

Alfred, I can't imagine that you have been left untouched by what you have read in these threads. I've said before and I will repeat, that you are to be commended for your zeal and for your determination to serve God. The riches of the Orthodox faith are so much greater than whatever you might be clinging to. Fabio Leite said it well:  Come back home, Alfred.


No arguments?

This is a direct broadside that sinks Orthodoxy:
Alfred, you take yourself too seriously. How can you see this as a broadside that sinks Orthodoxy when you can't even hit the broad side of a barn?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 01:56:48 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #967 on: October 15, 2010, 01:54:38 PM »
Because our first birth was not a process, the second birth cannot be.

 :o

You've obviously never been pregnant, given birth and thereafter raised a child.  No baby has ever dropped in my lap just because I believed in one. Birth is one part of a long process through and through. It starts with desire and builds from there, with the actual birth a true bringing forth to new life -- but its success dependent upon all the other parts of the process as well.  

ETA: And if you want to solely talk about the baby coming into the world through delivery from a woman's body, we're still talking process.  Ask anyone who has given birth.  It starts hours and hours (sometimes days) before actual delivery, and continues for weeks afterward (until the body stops bleeding).  Sorry, your analogy didn't work.  You actually created a wonderful picture of being born again at baptism.  

Can I nominate this for POST OF THE MONTH?  Awesome!  8)
Just click the "Report to Moderator" link at the bottom right of her post and type something like "October POM Nominee" into the text field. :)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 01:54:51 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline theistgal

  • Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,237
  • don't even go there!
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #968 on: October 15, 2010, 02:23:31 PM »
Thanks, Peter - meanwhile, I hereby nominate it as "Best Post in this Thread"! :D
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Fabio Leite

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,790
    • Vida Ortodoxa
How we are saved
« Reply #969 on: October 15, 2010, 04:20:34 PM »
Thanks to online searchable Bibles and Excel, here is a list of the passages where the Scriptures tell us the paths to salvation and how we can achieve it. Faith is central, but is far from being the only thing necessary.

2 Pe 02:20   after renunciation of the world, if involved by the world again, damnation will be worse.
John 03:03   being born again
John 03:05   being born again means of the water *and* of the spirit, both the material and the spiritual aspects of baptism.
Luk 23:42   by asking
1 Pe 03:21   by asking God for a good conscience
1 Cor 09:22   By being a servant to all.
Mat 05:20   by being more righteous than the hypocrates
Act 08:12   by Faith and Baptism
1 Tim 02:15   by fulfilling daily maternal duties with faith, modesty, charity and sanctity.
1 Tim 04:16   by fulfilling daily pastoral duties and with perseverance.
Act 15:11   By Grace
Mar 10:15   by having childlike heart
Luk 18:18   by having childlike heart
Mat 18:03   by having childlike heart
Jam 05:20   by helping a sinner out of sin.
Rom 08:24   by Hope
1 Tes 05:08   by Hope
Mat 18:23   by humbleness
Rom 11:14   By immitation of the saints.
Jam 02:05   by Love for God.
2 Tes 02:10   by Love of Truth
Heb 05:09   by Obedience
Luk 06:20   by Porverty (of Spirit)
Mat 05:03   by Poverty of Spirit
Mat 05:19   by practicing and teaching the commandments
Jam  05:15   by prayer
2 Tes 02:13   by sanctification of the spirit, and faith in Truth.
Luk 12:21   by seeking and having focus
Rom 10:09   by spoken confession and by faith in the resurrection.
Rom 10:10   by testimony in words.
Rom 05:10   by the Life of the Son of God
Rom 01:16   by the Power of God
2 Tim 04:03   by the right doctrine (ops, Orthodoxy!)
2 Tim 03:15   by Wisdom
Mat 07:21   calling Jesus name is not enough, but by  doing the will of the Father.(opsy for Protestants!)
John 06:51   Eating the Bread that is Jesus' flesh (many followers don't accept this and go away scandalized).
Mat 09:22   Faith in Christ
Mar 05:34   Faith in Christ
Luk 07:50   Faith in Christ
Luk 08:50   Faith in Christ
Luk 17:19   Faith in Christ
Luk 18:42   Faith in Christ
Acts 16:31   Faith in Christ
 Eph 02:08   Faith in Christ
Heb 10:39   Faith in Christ
1 Pe 01:09   Faith in Christ
Mar 16:16   Faith in Christ and Baptism
1 Cor 05:05   For great sinners, through mortification of the body.
Mat 12:25   In community, in union.
Acts 02:21   In the last times, calling Jesus' name will be enough.
Rom 10:13   In the last times, calling Jesus' name will be enough.
Rev 07:10   It's a work of God.
1 Pe 04:18   It's difficult even for the just and even more for the sinner.
Tito  03:05   Not by works, but by mercy *through* regeneration and renovation (repentance).
John 12:47   Not hearing the Word of God does not cause immediate damnation, but will in the end times.
Jam  01:21   Renunciation - active rejection of impurities and malice, and through obedience (asceticism)
Mat 10:39   Renunciation - Loose life for love of Jesus
Luk 17:33   Renunciation - Loose life for love of Jesus
Mar 08:35   Renunciation - Loose life for love of Jesus and of the Gospel
Mat 16:25   Renunciation - Sacrifice life for love of Jesus
Luk 09:24   Renunciation - Sacrifice life for love of Jesus
Luk 19:09   Renunciation - The good rich
Mat 19:25   Renunciation of the world and following Christ.
Mar 10:26   Renunciation of the world and following Christ.
Luk 18:26   Renunciation of the world and following Christ.
Jud 01:03   Struggle - and in community (no "personal" salvation).
Luke 9:62   Struggle - Perseverance and Focus
Phil. 01:19   Struggle - Tribulations, sufferings, and by the prayer of the faithful.
2 Pe 01:11   Struggle - with active constant effort to prevent falling from salvation.
Mat 11:12   Strugle - obtained through violence (against the passions!)
Mat 10:22   Strugle - Perseverance to the end
Mat 24:13   Strugle - Perseverance to the end
Mar 13:13   Strugle - Perseverance to the end
Luk 21:19   Strugle - Perseverance to the end (Constance)
Acts 14:22   Struglle - through much tribulation.
Jud 01:23   Through fear of the fire leading to avoidance of the passions.
Mat 16:19   through the hierarchy, mysteries and authority of the Church.
Phil 02:12   Through work and fear
John 10:09   To enter Christ (He is the Way and the Door)
Jam 02:14   True faith is manifest through works
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #970 on: October 15, 2010, 10:02:30 PM »
Because our first birth was not a process, the second birth cannot be.

 :o

You've obviously never been pregnant, given birth and thereafter raised a child.  No baby has ever dropped in my lap just because I believed in one. Birth is one part of a long process through and through. It starts with desire and builds from there, with the actual birth a true bringing forth to new life -- but its success dependent upon all the other parts of the process as well.  

ETA: And if you want to solely talk about the baby coming into the world through delivery from a woman's body, we're still talking process.  Ask anyone who has given birth.  It starts hours and hours (sometimes days) before actual delivery, and continues for weeks afterward (until the body stops bleeding).  Sorry, your analogy didn't work.  You actually created a wonderful picture of being born again at baptism.  

Yes, Birth can be a process, but it also can be an event, as "birthday celebrations" throughout the earth testify.

So we must study the scripture to see if Christ meant the new birth as a process, or as an event:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 (Joh 3:3-5 NKJ)

From "enter into his mother's womb and be born" its clear Nicodemus understands Christ referring to the birth event, not the process from conception to birth.  

Christ accepts that interpretation as essentially correct, but directs the reference away from the physical, to the entire person being born of water and Spirit.

Water alludes to John's baptism of repentance (Mat 3:1-6), Spirit to regeneration, therefore Jesus is saying to enter the kingdom, the Person himself must become new, they must repent and be regenerated by the Holy Spirit:

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2Co 5:17 NKJ)

All things have become new, not all things are in the process of renewal.


Hence it is written:

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Act 2:38 NKJ)

Not "repent and be baptized and you will start the process of receiving the Holy Spirit."

Repentance and belief are necessary, water is not:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)

These received received the Holy Spirit "just as we" the apostles have. Therefore salvation is not a process, it is an event, analogous to being born again, into a new world of life in Christ.






« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 10:11:51 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: How we are saved
« Reply #971 on: October 15, 2010, 10:22:29 PM »
Thanks to online searchable Bibles and Excel, here is a list of the passages where the Scriptures tell us the paths to salvation and how we can achieve it. Faith is central, but is far from being the only thing necessary.

2 Pe 02:20   after renunciation of the world, if involved by the world again, damnation will be worse.
John 03:03   being born again
John 03:05   being born again means of the water *and* of the spirit, both the material and the spiritual aspects of baptism.
Luk 23:42   by asking
1 Pe 03:21   by asking God for a good conscience
1 Cor 09:22   By being a servant to all.
Mat 05:20   by being more righteous than the hypocrates
Act 08:12   by Faith and Baptism
1 Tim 02:15   by fulfilling daily maternal duties with faith, modesty, charity and sanctity.
1 Tim 04:16   by fulfilling daily pastoral duties and with perseverance.
Act 15:11   By Grace
Mar 10:15   by having childlike heart
Luk 18:18   by having childlike heart
Mat 18:03   by having childlike heart
Jam 05:20   by helping a sinner out of sin.
Rom 08:24   by Hope
1 Tes 05:08   by Hope
Mat 18:23   by humbleness
Rom 11:14   By immitation of the saints.
Jam 02:05   by Love for God.
2 Tes 02:10   by Love of Truth
Heb 05:09   by Obedience
Luk 06:20   by Porverty (of Spirit)
Mat 05:03   by Poverty of Spirit
Mat 05:19   by practicing and teaching the commandments
Jam  05:15   by prayer
2 Tes 02:13   by sanctification of the spirit, and faith in Truth.
Luk 12:21   by seeking and having focus
Rom 10:09   by spoken confession and by faith in the resurrection.
Rom 10:10   by testimony in words.
Rom 05:10   by the Life of the Son of God
Rom 01:16   by the Power of God
2 Tim 04:03   by the right doctrine (ops, Orthodoxy!)
2 Tim 03:15   by Wisdom
Mat 07:21   calling Jesus name is not enough, but by  doing the will of the Father.(opsy for Protestants!)
John 06:51   Eating the Bread that is Jesus' flesh (many followers don't accept this and go away scandalized).
Mat 09:22   Faith in Christ
Mar 05:34   Faith in Christ
Luk 07:50   Faith in Christ
Luk 08:50   Faith in Christ
Luk 17:19   Faith in Christ
Luk 18:42   Faith in Christ
Acts 16:31   Faith in Christ
 Eph 02:08   Faith in Christ
Heb 10:39   Faith in Christ
1 Pe 01:09   Faith in Christ
Mar 16:16   Faith in Christ and Baptism
1 Cor 05:05   For great sinners, through mortification of the body.
Mat 12:25   In community, in union.
Acts 02:21   In the last times, calling Jesus' name will be enough.
Rom 10:13   In the last times, calling Jesus' name will be enough.
Rev 07:10   It's a work of God.
1 Pe 04:18   It's difficult even for the just and even more for the sinner.
Tito  03:05   Not by works, but by mercy *through* regeneration and renovation (repentance).
John 12:47   Not hearing the Word of God does not cause immediate damnation, but will in the end times.
Jam  01:21   Renunciation - active rejection of impurities and malice, and through obedience (asceticism)
Mat 10:39   Renunciation - Loose life for love of Jesus
Luk 17:33   Renunciation - Loose life for love of Jesus
Mar 08:35   Renunciation - Loose life for love of Jesus and of the Gospel
Mat 16:25   Renunciation - Sacrifice life for love of Jesus
Luk 09:24   Renunciation - Sacrifice life for love of Jesus
Luk 19:09   Renunciation - The good rich
Mat 19:25   Renunciation of the world and following Christ.
Mar 10:26   Renunciation of the world and following Christ.
Luk 18:26   Renunciation of the world and following Christ.
Jud 01:03   Struggle - and in community (no "personal" salvation).
Luke 9:62   Struggle - Perseverance and Focus
Phil. 01:19   Struggle - Tribulations, sufferings, and by the prayer of the faithful.
2 Pe 01:11   Struggle - with active constant effort to prevent falling from salvation.
Mat 11:12   Strugle - obtained through violence (against the passions!)
Mat 10:22   Strugle - Perseverance to the end
Mat 24:13   Strugle - Perseverance to the end
Mar 13:13   Strugle - Perseverance to the end
Luk 21:19   Strugle - Perseverance to the end (Constance)
Acts 14:22   Struglle - through much tribulation.
Jud 01:23   Through fear of the fire leading to avoidance of the passions.
Mat 16:19   through the hierarchy, mysteries and authority of the Church.
Phil 02:12   Through work and fear
John 10:09   To enter Christ (He is the Way and the Door)
Jam 02:14   True faith is manifest through works


If we must be all that to be saved, we are all doomed.

Not even the apostles lived up to that standard:

 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
 25 I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (Rom 7:24-1 NKJ)

Paul is not being "politically correct", like all of us, he failed on occasion, and he hates it, calls his own body "this body of death."[/i]

It serves the law of sin...and its a constant war to overcome it...and sometimes we fail.

BUT Paul is not trusting his ability to be perfect, he realizes that is impossible, and so thanks God for His Propitiation of our sins, the Ransom sacrifice of Christ, which paid the penalty for our sin...and as all those sins were future when Christ died, He even died for the sins I will do tomorrow.

So salvation is NOT a process, it was won for me the day Christ died, in Him I died also, and in Him I rise also, hence we have the symbol of baptism:

 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
 (Rom 6:3-8 NKJ)

We are freed from sin's power to kill, it has no authority over us...but sadly our bodies of death, still march to its drum...and that will be corrected in the Resurrection.

BUT our salvation is an event, not a process, it happens the moment we believe:

 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 (Rom 10:9-10 NKJ)

Confession is made unto salvation, into the realm of salvation. It therefore is an event, not a process.

Paul says confess, you will be saved. Not, you will eventually be saved (as if by a process), the promise is it will occur as soon as his conditions are met, during or right after the confession...therefore salvation is an event, not a process.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 10:33:30 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #972 on: October 15, 2010, 10:39:13 PM »
Evidently Orthodox tradition "Born again" (John 3:3) is a "process" prevents you folks from experiencing it.

Here we go again. Picking fights out of the blue.  ::)
Yes, and I would agree with Fabio Leite as well. Alfred can bring no real arguments, so he's having to invent new ones. And I do understand. After I was first exposed to Orthodoxy, I knew it was for me, but because my roots were so deep in my Evangelical church with which I had no real beefs, most of my exploration time was to try to find reasons NOT to convert. But I wanted what Orthodoxy holds more than I wanted to argue with it.

Alfred, I can't imagine that you have been left untouched by what you have read in these threads. I've said before and I will repeat, that you are to be commended for your zeal and for your determination to serve God. The riches of the Orthodox faith are so much greater than whatever you might be clinging to. Fabio Leite said it well:  Come back home, Alfred.


No arguments?

This is a direct broadside that sinks Orthodoxy:
Alfred, you take yourself too seriously. How can you see this as a broadside that sinks Orthodoxy when you can't even hit the broad side of a barn?

We shall see.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #973 on: October 15, 2010, 10:47:08 PM »
Because our first birth was not a process, the second birth cannot be.

 :o

You've obviously never been pregnant, given birth and thereafter raised a child.  No baby has ever dropped in my lap just because I believed in one. Birth is one part of a long process through and through. It starts with desire and builds from there, with the actual birth a true bringing forth to new life -- but its success dependent upon all the other parts of the process as well.  

ETA: And if you want to solely talk about the baby coming into the world through delivery from a woman's body, we're still talking process.  Ask anyone who has given birth.  It starts hours and hours (sometimes days) before actual delivery, and continues for weeks afterward (until the body stops bleeding).  Sorry, your analogy didn't work.  You actually created a wonderful picture of being born again at baptism.  

Yes, Birth can be a process, but it also can be an event, as "birthday celebrations" throughout the earth testify.

So we must study the scripture to see if Christ meant the new birth as a process, or as an event:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 (Joh 3:3-5 NKJ)

From "enter into his mother's womb and be born" its clear Nicodemus understands Christ referring to the birth event, not the process from conception to birth.  

Christ accepts that interpretation as essentially correct, but directs the reference away from the physical, to the entire person being born of water and Spirit.

Water alludes to John's baptism of repentance (Mat 3:1-6), Spirit to regeneration, therefore Jesus is saying to enter the kingdom, the Person himself must become new, they must repent and be regenerated by the Holy Spirit:

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2Co 5:17 NKJ)

All things have become new, not all things are in the process of renewal.


Hence it is written:

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Act 2:38 NKJ)

Not "repent and be baptized and you will start the process of receiving the Holy Spirit."

Repentance and belief are necessary, water is not:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)

These received received the Holy Spirit "just as we" the apostles have. Therefore salvation is not a process, it is an event, analogous to being born again, into a new world of life in Christ.








Somebody failed biology 101, and reading comprehension. It was pointed out that not just from conception to birth is a process, but that the birth process is also a process. Your logic is faulty here as a baby is in the mothers womb from day 14 after conception (known as implantation). If Nicodemus had said, "enter into a mothers birth canal" that would have been closer to the so called "event" although a baby can be in the birth canal 36 hours on average (for first births) before they are actually born.

It is with this understanding that we know that being born again is also a process, not an event.
OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #974 on: October 16, 2010, 08:27:08 AM »
Because our first birth was not a process, the second birth cannot be.

 :o

You've obviously never been pregnant, given birth and thereafter raised a child.  No baby has ever dropped in my lap just because I believed in one. Birth is one part of a long process through and through. It starts with desire and builds from there, with the actual birth a true bringing forth to new life -- but its success dependent upon all the other parts of the process as well.  

ETA: And if you want to solely talk about the baby coming into the world through delivery from a woman's body, we're still talking process.  Ask anyone who has given birth.  It starts hours and hours (sometimes days) before actual delivery, and continues for weeks afterward (until the body stops bleeding).  Sorry, your analogy didn't work.  You actually created a wonderful picture of being born again at baptism.  

Yes, Birth can be a process, but it also can be an event, as "birthday celebrations" throughout the earth testify.

So we must study the scripture to see if Christ meant the new birth as a process, or as an event:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 (Joh 3:3-5 NKJ)

From "enter into his mother's womb and be born" its clear Nicodemus understands Christ referring to the birth event, not the process from conception to birth.  

Christ accepts that interpretation as essentially correct, but directs the reference away from the physical, to the entire person being born of water and Spirit.

Water alludes to John's baptism of repentance (Mat 3:1-6), Spirit to regeneration, therefore Jesus is saying to enter the kingdom, the Person himself must become new, they must repent and be regenerated by the Holy Spirit:

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2Co 5:17 NKJ)

All things have become new, not all things are in the process of renewal.


Hence it is written:

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Act 2:38 NKJ)

Not "repent and be baptized and you will start the process of receiving the Holy Spirit."

Repentance and belief are necessary, water is not:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)

These received received the Holy Spirit "just as we" the apostles have. Therefore salvation is not a process, it is an event, analogous to being born again, into a new world of life in Christ.








Somebody failed biology 101, and reading comprehension. It was pointed out that not just from conception to birth is a process, but that the birth process is also a process. Your logic is faulty here as a baby is in the mothers womb from day 14 after conception (known as implantation). If Nicodemus had said, "enter into a mothers birth canal" that would have been closer to the so called "event" although a baby can be in the birth canal 36 hours on average (for first births) before they are actually born.

It is with this understanding that we know that being born again is also a process, not an event.

Incorrect, its all about context, interpreting literature correctly, in context. Nicodemus rightly understood Christ to be speaking about the event, birth (vs 4), not the process, but wrongly about it meaning a physical birth(v. 6).

 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'  (Joh 3:3-7 NKJ)

NOT "do not marvel that I said you must  be conceived again, and via a 9 month process, be born.

Nicodemus was a believer, he is perplexed, he understands Christ is speaking about birth from a mother's womb (vs. 4), he failed to see Christ's meant a spiritual birth, where the old ceases, and a new person is born:

 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
 (2Co 5:17-18 NKJ)

That this is the birth event, and not a slow process, is confirmed by this imagery of old passing, and all things new. Also vs 18 which says God HAS reconciled us to Himself, not begun a process of reconciliation.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 08:32:49 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #975 on: October 16, 2010, 08:50:48 AM »
Because our first birth was not a process, the second birth cannot be.

 :o

You've obviously never been pregnant, given birth and thereafter raised a child.  No baby has ever dropped in my lap just because I believed in one. Birth is one part of a long process through and through. It starts with desire and builds from there, with the actual birth a true bringing forth to new life -- but its success dependent upon all the other parts of the process as well. 

ETA: And if you want to solely talk about the baby coming into the world through delivery from a woman's body, we're still talking process.  Ask anyone who has given birth.  It starts hours and hours (sometimes days) before actual delivery, and continues for weeks afterward (until the body stops bleeding).  Sorry, your analogy didn't work.  You actually created a wonderful picture of being born again at baptism. 

Yes, Birth can be a process, but it also can be an event, as "birthday celebrations" throughout the earth testify.

So we must study the scripture to see if Christ meant the new birth as a process, or as an event:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 (Joh 3:3-5 NKJ)

From "enter into his mother's womb and be born" its clear Nicodemus understands Christ referring to the birth event, not the process from conception to birth. 

Christ accepts that interpretation as essentially correct, but directs the reference away from the physical, to the entire person being born of water and Spirit.

Water alludes to John's baptism of repentance (Mat 3:1-6), Spirit to regeneration, therefore Jesus is saying to enter the kingdom, the Person himself must become new, they must repent and be regenerated by the Holy Spirit:

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2Co 5:17 NKJ)

All things have become new, not all things are in the process of renewal.


Hence it is written:

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Act 2:38 NKJ)

Not "repent and be baptized and you will start the process of receiving the Holy Spirit."

Repentance and belief are necessary, water is not:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)

These received received the Holy Spirit "just as we" the apostles have. Therefore salvation is not a process, it is an event, analogous to being born again, into a new world of life in Christ.








Somebody failed biology 101, and reading comprehension. It was pointed out that not just from conception to birth is a process, but that the birth process is also a process. Your logic is faulty here as a baby is in the mothers womb from day 14 after conception (known as implantation). If Nicodemus had said, "enter into a mothers birth canal" that would have been closer to the so called "event" although a baby can be in the birth canal 36 hours on average (for first births) before they are actually born.

It is with this understanding that we know that being born again is also a process, not an event.

Incorrect, its all about context, interpreting literature correctly, in context. Nicodemus rightly understood Christ to be speaking about the event, birth (vs 4), not the process, but wrongly about it meaning a physical birth(v. 6).

 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'  (Joh 3:3-7 NKJ)

NOT "do not marvel that I said you must  be conceived again, and via a 9 month process, be born.

Nicodemus was a believer, he is perplexed, he understands Christ is speaking about birth from a mother's womb (vs. 4), he failed to see Christ's meant a spiritual birth, where the old ceases, and a new person is born:

 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
 (2Co 5:17-18 NKJ)

That this is the birth event, and not a slow process, is confirmed by this imagery of old passing, and all things new. Also vs 18 which says God HAS reconciled us to Himself, not begun a process of reconciliation.

Incorrect, because even the birth itself is still a process, not an event, that is why it is called the birthing process not the birthing event. The baby does not just enter into the birth canal and pop its head out a few moments later, there is a lot more going on here that any mother can tell you about.

Even among protestants being born again is a process through which one must go.
First you have to feel convicted
Then you face a confrontation of beliefs (believing in God vs the world telling you there is no God)
Then there is acceptance (accepting that there is a God, Jesus is His son and He died for us)
Then there is repentance
Then there is salvation

All this leads up to what the Protestants label the act of being born again. But even acts have processes - Jesus' act of dying for our sins was a process of torture before He finally gave up the ghost. Think of a play, plays have acts and those acts have certain processes in them which must be fulfilled before they can move to the next act; now you can say act one is about Romeo falling in love when he see Juliet, but if you look at the act itself there is so much more to the process that leads to Romeo seeing Juliet and then falling in love with her. Or even take for instance, starting a computer - sure to you it looks like you push the button and pretty lights and music comes up, but behind the scenes are tiny little processes leading up to the act of your computer starting.

In conclusion, even acts (of any type) have processes running behind them. They do not just happen, other processes must happen first.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 08:52:38 AM by dcommini »
OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #976 on: October 16, 2010, 10:12:04 AM »
Because our first birth was not a process, the second birth cannot be.

 :o

You've obviously never been pregnant, given birth and thereafter raised a child.  No baby has ever dropped in my lap just because I believed in one. Birth is one part of a long process through and through. It starts with desire and builds from there, with the actual birth a true bringing forth to new life -- but its success dependent upon all the other parts of the process as well. 

ETA: And if you want to solely talk about the baby coming into the world through delivery from a woman's body, we're still talking process.  Ask anyone who has given birth.  It starts hours and hours (sometimes days) before actual delivery, and continues for weeks afterward (until the body stops bleeding).  Sorry, your analogy didn't work.  You actually created a wonderful picture of being born again at baptism. 

Yes, Birth can be a process, but it also can be an event, as "birthday celebrations" throughout the earth testify.

So we must study the scripture to see if Christ meant the new birth as a process, or as an event:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 (Joh 3:3-5 NKJ)

From "enter into his mother's womb and be born" its clear Nicodemus understands Christ referring to the birth event, not the process from conception to birth. 

Christ accepts that interpretation as essentially correct, but directs the reference away from the physical, to the entire person being born of water and Spirit.

Water alludes to John's baptism of repentance (Mat 3:1-6), Spirit to regeneration, therefore Jesus is saying to enter the kingdom, the Person himself must become new, they must repent and be regenerated by the Holy Spirit:

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2Co 5:17 NKJ)

All things have become new, not all things are in the process of renewal.


Hence it is written:

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Act 2:38 NKJ)

Not "repent and be baptized and you will start the process of receiving the Holy Spirit."

Repentance and belief are necessary, water is not:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)

These received received the Holy Spirit "just as we" the apostles have. Therefore salvation is not a process, it is an event, analogous to being born again, into a new world of life in Christ.








Somebody failed biology 101, and reading comprehension. It was pointed out that not just from conception to birth is a process, but that the birth process is also a process. Your logic is faulty here as a baby is in the mothers womb from day 14 after conception (known as implantation). If Nicodemus had said, "enter into a mothers birth canal" that would have been closer to the so called "event" although a baby can be in the birth canal 36 hours on average (for first births) before they are actually born.

It is with this understanding that we know that being born again is also a process, not an event.

Incorrect, its all about context, interpreting literature correctly, in context. Nicodemus rightly understood Christ to be speaking about the event, birth (vs 4), not the process, but wrongly about it meaning a physical birth(v. 6).

 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
 4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'  (Joh 3:3-7 NKJ)

NOT "do not marvel that I said you must  be conceived again, and via a 9 month process, be born.

Nicodemus was a believer, he is perplexed, he understands Christ is speaking about birth from a mother's womb (vs. 4), he failed to see Christ's meant a spiritual birth, where the old ceases, and a new person is born:

 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
 (2Co 5:17-18 NKJ)

That this is the birth event, and not a slow process, is confirmed by this imagery of old passing, and all things new. Also vs 18 which says God HAS reconciled us to Himself, not begun a process of reconciliation.

Incorrect, because even the birth itself is still a process, not an event, that is why it is called the birthing process not the birthing event. The baby does not just enter into the birth canal and pop its head out a few moments later, there is a lot more going on here that any mother can tell you about.

Even among protestants being born again is a process through which one must go.
First you have to feel convicted
Then you face a confrontation of beliefs (believing in God vs the world telling you there is no God)
Then there is acceptance (accepting that there is a God, Jesus is His son and He died for us)
Then there is repentance
Then there is salvation

All this leads up to what the Protestants label the act of being born again. But even acts have processes - Jesus' act of dying for our sins was a process of torture before He finally gave up the ghost. Think of a play, plays have acts and those acts have certain processes in them which must be fulfilled before they can move to the next act; now you can say act one is about Romeo falling in love when he see Juliet, but if you look at the act itself there is so much more to the process that leads to Romeo seeing Juliet and then falling in love with her. Or even take for instance, starting a computer - sure to you it looks like you push the button and pretty lights and music comes up, but behind the scenes are tiny little processes leading up to the act of your computer starting.

In conclusion, even acts (of any type) have processes running behind them. They do not just happen, other processes must happen first.

Incorrect, as even your own list proves.

Only the last "Then there is salvation" occurs when receiving the Holy Spirit = New Birth, therefore its an event, none of the prior items in your "process" occur because of receiving the Holy Spirit.

We are talking about being born by the Spirit.

Its a work of God, not of man, "not of ourselves:"

 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 (Eph 2:8-10 NKJ)


Nothing in this verse indicates a process.
1)We are saved, not in the process of being saved.
2)This salvation is NOT of ourselves, not part of a self cleansing process.
3)It is a gift which implies an gifting event, not a process.
4)We are His workmanship, which could not be said if the work were incomplete and liable to never being completed.
5)Created in Christ Jesus, not going through a process to end up in Christ Jesus. Spatially, we are put in Christ via an act of creation, that implies an event, a birth event would be analogous.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #977 on: October 16, 2010, 11:08:50 AM »
I need a clarification on theosis.

When you say its a process, are you saying salvation doesn't occur until the end of the process...

Or does salvation occur when you believe, but the process of "deification" isn't complete until our physical forms are changed into "spiritual bodies," resurrected bodies animated and infused with the Spirit?

If the latter, than we agree and the supposed disagreement my misunderstanding of the Orthodox position.

If the former, I can certainly prove that is wrong according to apostolic doctrine.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,324
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #978 on: October 16, 2010, 11:13:09 AM »
^ You really are clueless as to what birth is, aren't you?  Birth isn't an event like waving a wand.  To wit:

- The birthing process takes place over several days, including changes in hormone and adrenaline levels, muscles practicing, etc.  The birth isn't complete until days (or even weeks) later, depending on the amount of healing that the mother's body needs.
- Even the climactic moments of birth are a process - turning, effacing, dilating, pushing in stages, cutting, cleaning, examining, etc.  You still have to birth the placenta, etc. too.
- The product of a birth is imperfect - needing constant care and defense from outside, more mature creatures (i.e. adults)
- The product of a birth is incomplete - needing years to complete physical and psycho-social development

If you want to continue to insist on the birth language from the scripture, which we accept, that's fine; but for you to call birth a "one and done" kind of event is indicating either a weakness in your educational background or a willingness to obscure the truth for the sake of the argument.  Plus, calling birth an event instead of a process won't score points with the ladies, let me tell you ;)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 11:17:01 AM by Fr. George »
How in Mor's good name
one hundred fifty four posts
No Rachel Weisz pic

Selam

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,324
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #979 on: October 16, 2010, 11:22:23 AM »
I need a clarification on theosis.

When you say its a process, are you saying salvation doesn't occur until the end of the process...

Or does salvation occur when you believe, but the process of "deification" isn't complete until our physical forms are changed into "spiritual bodies," resurrected bodies animated and infused with the Spirit?

If the latter, than we agree and the supposed disagreement my misunderstanding of the Orthodox position.

If the former, I can certainly prove that is wrong according to apostolic doctrine.

First, you're asking about theosis in all the wrong ways.  Operating from your incomplete starting point (and your incomplete foreknowledge):
     
- Theosis (union with God) is an event simultaneously occuring in the past, present, and future; it is both process and destination.
- Theosis only occurs through the synergy between God's grace and our cooperation - a synergy that is only the result of God's grace in maintaining our free will
- The answer to the question "Are you saved?" is similar: I was saved by the Lord through His Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection; I am being saved by His grace with which I am trying my best to cooperate through living the life He wants me to live and through participating in His Church through participation in the sacramental and fellowship life of the Church; and I will be saved by His mercy at the Great Judgment.
- Since God exists & operates both outside and inside of time, and is the origin and destination of all these activities, the paradox of "how can this be in the past, present, and future" disappears.

Suggested reading on theosis: Partakers of Divine Nature by Archimandrite Christoforos Stavropoulos, translated by Fr. Stanley Harakas (available through Light & Life Publishing).
How in Mor's good name
one hundred fifty four posts
No Rachel Weisz pic

Selam

Offline Thankful

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 263
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #980 on: October 16, 2010, 11:39:51 AM »
Plus, calling birth an event instead of a process won't score points with the ladies, let me tell you ;)

Right on.  Even my quickest labor & birth -- which was one hour from the time I new I was really in labor to when the baby was in our arms -- was a process.  Looking back I realized the contractions I'd been having for the previous week, which I thought were "braxton-hicks" contractions (i.e., "practice" ones) must have been real ones getting me ready for a quick delivery.  But even once she was in our arms it was 10-15 minutes before the cord was cut, another 30-45 minutes before the afterbirth was delivered, and six weeks until the healing in my body was complete.  

PLUS -- the birth is a wonderful bringing forth of the new life, but it's actually not what's important in the bigger picture of things. Goodness, no. It's just the end of the beginning. NOW we have nourishment, physical growth, getting to know our makers (parents), the development of wonder and gratitude, training in the virtues, learning to obey, etc. And this is true life -- growing and becoming the people we were designed to be. A continued process that goes until we die -- and while no analogy is perfect, this can be thought of spiritually as well. "He who endures to the end will be saved." That surely sounds like salvation being a process to me.  
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 11:41:45 AM by Thankful »

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #981 on: October 16, 2010, 05:03:53 PM »
^ You really are clueless as to what birth is, aren't you?  Birth isn't an event like waving a wand.  To wit:

- The birthing process takes place over several days, including changes in hormone and adrenaline levels, muscles practicing, etc.  The birth isn't complete until days (or even weeks) later, depending on the amount of healing that the mother's body needs.
- Even the climactic moments of birth are a process - turning, effacing, dilating, pushing in stages, cutting, cleaning, examining, etc.  You still have to birth the placenta, etc. too.
- The product of a birth is imperfect - needing constant care and defense from outside, more mature creatures (i.e. adults)
- The product of a birth is incomplete - needing years to complete physical and psycho-social development

If you want to continue to insist on the birth language from the scripture, which we accept, that's fine; but for you to call birth a "one and done" kind of event is indicating either a weakness in your educational background or a willingness to obscure the truth for the sake of the argument.  Plus, calling birth an event instead of a process won't score points with the ladies, let me tell you ;)

So many words, and still I am clueless, not having received the clue I asked for.

Does your view of salvation have the person saved when they believe, or at the resurrection?

Or is it in hell that you are saved, or purgatory or whatever you call the intermediate state?

Why not give me a clue? Can't spare it?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #982 on: October 16, 2010, 05:08:11 PM »
Plus, calling birth an event instead of a process won't score points with the ladies, let me tell you ;)

Right on.  Even my quickest labor & birth -- which was one hour from the time I new I was really in labor to when the baby was in our arms -- was a process.  Looking back I realized the contractions I'd been having for the previous week, which I thought were "braxton-hicks" contractions (i.e., "practice" ones) must have been real ones getting me ready for a quick delivery.  But even once she was in our arms it was 10-15 minutes before the cord was cut, another 30-45 minutes before the afterbirth was delivered, and six weeks until the healing in my body was complete.  

PLUS -- the birth is a wonderful bringing forth of the new life, but it's actually not what's important in the bigger picture of things. Goodness, no. It's just the end of the beginning. NOW we have nourishment, physical growth, getting to know our makers (parents), the development of wonder and gratitude, training in the virtues, learning to obey, etc. And this is true life -- growing and becoming the people we were designed to be. A continued process that goes until we die -- and while no analogy is perfect, this can be thought of spiritually as well. "He who endures to the end will be saved." That surely sounds like salvation being a process to me.  


Evidently a clarification is beyond the intellectual capacity of the Orthodox posting here.

Is that right?

Or perhaps none of you know the answer?
Alfred, most of your taunting on this thread has been within the bounds of permissible trash talk (i.e., focused on arguments and on puffing yourself up, not on tearing others down), but that comment about our intellectual capacity is just plain rude. We do not tolerate such personal insults on this forum; therefore, you are receiving this warning to last for the next three weeks. Do this again, and you will be placed on post moderation, a status where every one of your posts will need to be approved by a moderator before it will appear on the forum. If you think this warning unfair, please feel free to appeal it via private message to Fr. George.

- PeterTheAleut
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 07:01:59 PM by PeterTheAleut »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,906
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #983 on: October 16, 2010, 05:51:26 PM »

Evidently a clarification is beyond the intellectual capacity of the Orthodox posting here.

Is that right?

Or perhaps none of you know the answer?
Quite frankly, Alfred, that response is just plain rude. Unless there is a sincere apology and rethinking of that statement, it is not worth continuing to try to interact with you.

Your insults are unbecoming to someone who claims to be a Christian.

Matthew 15:18 (NKJV) "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man."

You have shown us your heart.

Offline katherine 2001

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 895
  • Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #984 on: October 16, 2010, 07:12:52 PM »

Evidently a clarification is beyond the intellectual capacity of the Orthodox posting here.

Is that right?

Or perhaps none of you know the answer?
Quite frankly, Alfred, that response is just plain rude. Unless there is a sincere apology and rethinking of that statement, it is not worth continuing to try to interact with you.

Your insults are unbecoming to someone who claims to be a Christian.

Matthew 15:18 (NKJV) "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man."

You have shown us your heart.

I agree.  Unfortunately, he shows one of the greatest problems that Evangelicals often have--tremendous pride in their own intellect.  However, I have a question for you, Alfred.  If man is totally depraved (as any Evangelical I've known believes in and I believed in until I started investigating Orthodoxy), then how can our intellect not be affected by this?  How can you trust your own intellect? 

Offline katherine 2001

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 895
  • Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #985 on: October 16, 2010, 07:35:29 PM »
Evidently a clarification is beyond the intellectual capacity of the Orthodox posting here.

Is that right?

Or perhaps none of you know the answer?

Alfred, entire books have been written on Theosis.  Did you actually expect Fr. George to be able to explain it in a post?  Also, theosis is something that is lived, it is not an intellectual exercise.  If you really want to know what it is, start attending an Orthodox  church and talk to the priest about it. 

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #986 on: October 16, 2010, 07:52:04 PM »
Plus, calling birth an event instead of a process won't score points with the ladies, let me tell you ;)

Right on.  Even my quickest labor & birth -- which was one hour from the time I new I was really in labor to when the baby was in our arms -- was a process.  Looking back I realized the contractions I'd been having for the previous week, which I thought were "braxton-hicks" contractions (i.e., "practice" ones) must have been real ones getting me ready for a quick delivery.  But even once she was in our arms it was 10-15 minutes before the cord was cut, another 30-45 minutes before the afterbirth was delivered, and six weeks until the healing in my body was complete.  

PLUS -- the birth is a wonderful bringing forth of the new life, but it's actually not what's important in the bigger picture of things. Goodness, no. It's just the end of the beginning. NOW we have nourishment, physical growth, getting to know our makers (parents), the development of wonder and gratitude, training in the virtues, learning to obey, etc. And this is true life -- growing and becoming the people we were designed to be. A continued process that goes until we die -- and while no analogy is perfect, this can be thought of spiritually as well. "He who endures to the end will be saved." That surely sounds like salvation being a process to me.  


Evidently a clarification is beyond the intellectual capacity of the Orthodox posting here.

Is that right?

Or perhaps none of you know the answer?
Alfred, most of your taunting on this thread has been within the bounds of permissible trash talk (i.e., focused on arguments and on puffing yourself up, not on tearing others down), but that comment about our intellectual capacity is just plain rude. We do not tolerate such personal insults on this forum; therefore, you are receiving this warning to last for the next three weeks. Do this again, and you will be placed on post moderation, a status where every one of your posts will need to be approved by a moderator before it will appear on the forum. If you think this warning unfair, please feel free to appeal it via private message to Fr. George.

- PeterTheAleut

Its a question, not a statement of fact...I was hoping someone disprove it...I want the clarification...I might be wasting everyone's time if we actually agree...but the semantics are different.

While I'll take the warning...a question is not a statement, if you reread it, its clear I was trying to "jolt" someone into answering me.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #987 on: October 16, 2010, 07:55:14 PM »

Evidently a clarification is beyond the intellectual capacity of the Orthodox posting here.

Is that right?

Or perhaps none of you know the answer?
Quite frankly, Alfred, that response is just plain rude. Unless there is a sincere apology and rethinking of that statement, it is not worth continuing to try to interact with you.

Your insults are unbecoming to someone who claims to be a Christian.

Matthew 15:18 (NKJV) "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man."

You have shown us your heart.

The best refutation would have been supply me with the clarification.

Now four posts later, I'm still asking the Orthodox what they believe and none of you answer me.

Is that Christian?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PrincessMommy

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 734
  • OCA
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #988 on: October 16, 2010, 08:17:28 PM »


The best refutation would have been supply me with the clarification.

Now four posts later, I'm still asking the Orthodox what they believe and none of you answer me.

Is that Christian?

Fr. George did answer your question.  Theosis isn't something we can answer in one pithy sentence.  You're still looking at salvation as an event.  You seem to want us to stick a thumbtack on a timeline to tell you when it happens in someone's life. 

Offline DennyB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 241
  • Moving Toward Orthodoxy
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #989 on: October 16, 2010, 08:24:00 PM »

Evidently a clarification is beyond the intellectual capacity of the Orthodox posting here.

Is that right?

Or perhaps none of you know the answer?
Quite frankly, Alfred, that response is just plain rude. Unless there is a sincere apology and rethinking of that statement, it is not worth continuing to try to interact with you.

Your insults are unbecoming to someone who claims to be a Christian.

Matthew 15:18 (NKJV) "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man."

You have shown us your heart.

The best refutation would have been supply me with the clarification.

Now four posts later, I'm still asking the Orthodox what they believe and none of you answer me.

Is that Christian?

Your have been argumentitive this whole time,Serious debate ceases when this occurs.