Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 188572 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #900 on: October 12, 2010, 08:28:40 AM »

Again, you miss the point made. I am not blaming God for sowing confusion. I am blaming man for sowing confusion by relying on his own mind and intellect....

AND you miss the simple fact God ruled out adding tradition to His word:

{Snip}

Therefore man's inability to understand His Word without Tradition is God's fault...

Moreover, you are superior to God...no tradition is required for me to read your words with understanding.

IN fact, school children across the land do every day, what God evidently could not, communicate by writing without a body of tradition.

So you are blaming God when you blame reading the Bible.

As for Madison, its clear from his quote, he blames men, not the Bible.

AND you deny reality...sola scripturaist have a higher level of agreement as to what scripture says, than you traditionalists do...

You folks can't even agree on a commentary that details what Scripture says.

You point to the fathers...what good is that when you don't heed them, the vast majority of them believed in Christ's millennial kingdom, so you pick and choose what you like in the fathers...evidently that's why you don't author an "approved commentary detailing what the fathers taught" lest you have to teach the same.

Its as though you folks are "pathological", totally misrepresenting what you do as everyone thinking alike, when its obvious to everyone that is precisely what you  don't do.

Then you justify your disorder and dissension, by citing cults and non sola scripturaists, and apostates, as proof you are more unified than those who read the Bible alone...the hubris is incredible.  

You have indeed proven his point.  You're the only person, out of dozens that have seen his post, to erroneously interpret his words in that way; the rest of us clearly saw his intention and true meaning.  It then stands that you individually are incapable of interpreting what he said because of a defect in your thinking (which I do not believe to be true), or you have demonstrated that even clear statements with clear intentions and meanings can be misinterpreted by people because human beings are imperfect.

Incorrect, I never disputed that point, rather I insisted the blame is on man, not scripture.

I do dispute man is unable to overcome the defects in his character and interpret writing, then law, contracts, literature in general, probably wouldn't exist...for who could understand it?

Your argument  rests upon the fallacy of special pleading, that the Bible alone, unique among all the literature in existence, cannot be understood by itself, it requires tradition to complete its sense....a proposition you don't hold when you read my posts, or those of others. Then it seems you have no problem reading and understanding without tradition's input.

That is special pleading and is insulting to its author given God is Omniscient, you must be saying He authored confusion on purpose....wrote scripture to confuse us.

That would be evil, would it not?

So you cannot argue the Bible cannot be understood without tradition, for then God's failure to identify and precisely define that tradition inevitally leads to evil, and then God is the author of evil...a premise you certainly would reject.

Therefore you cannot special plead The Bible alone, unique among all  literature on the planet, cannot be understood without tradition, for when you do, you are ascribing evil to God.
Actually, Alfred, yes we can. Only the Bible claims to be divinely inspired, while all other documents are merely the writings of men. You seem to be asserting that anything God inspires should be perfectly clear and easy to understand. I'm actually not sure we can claim that for any of our ancient documents, even those not claiming divine inspiration. Can you claim that for Homer's Iliad? Good luck trying to convince us that you can.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #901 on: October 12, 2010, 08:40:58 AM »

For example, the millennial kingdom is a consensus in the earliest fathers,
References, please.

Papias, Justin Martyr, Theophilus, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Caius according to Eusebius, Origin, Commodianus, Nepos accorinding to Dionysius of Alexandria, Victorinus, Methodius, Lactantius to name a few believed in the Millennial reign of Christ:



KJV  Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
 (Rev 20:1-7 KJV)

Without the millennial reign of Christ, the above texts and many others are inexplicable.
Thank you, Alfred, for doing your best to keep up with our many requests for references and clarifications. I did respond already, however, in reply #815.

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #902 on: October 12, 2010, 09:25:05 AM »
elevating tradition to Scripture's level  of authority (which I am unsure the Orthodox actually do, contrary to the statements of some here)

Why do you continue in your obstinacy? We have explained this countless times already. There is not a diochotomy between Tradition and Scripture. Scripture is a type of Tradition.

Alfred sees our hierarchy of importance this way:

1. Tradition
- - Fathers
- - Divine Services
- - Hagiography
- - Icons
- - Etc.
2. Scripture

The Orthodox Church sees it this way:

1. Tradition
- - Scripture
- - Fathers
- - Divine Services
- - Hagiography
- - Icons
- - Etc.

Scripture is a type of Tradition, just as a golden retriever is a type of dog and a maple is a type of tree.

If "living tradition in the church" is inspired without error, then most of the New Testament written to correct errors in Church tradition wouldn't have been written, there wouldn't have been any errors in the Church tradition to correct, as Paul is certainly doing throughout 1 Corinthians and in particular chapters 12-14.

Again, demonstrating you really don't understand what Tradition is, despite how many times it has been explained to you.

Every action of members of the Church is not Holy Tradition. Holy Tradition is only that which is accepted in all places, at all times, and by all. The Churches of the New Testament had strayed from the Tradition, and St Paul was instructing them so they could return to it.

Also, you have called Tradition "hearsay". That is utter rubbish. You show your cultural chauvinism by degrading oral tradition (even though that's how we got much of the Old Testament). Oral cultures are far more meticulous on preserving what they had been told as-is than we are. This skepticism of oral tradition is only possible in a highly literate and text-based culture. Well, most of the people for most of Christian history were neither.

Actually you don't degrade oral tradition. You degrade the oral tradition of Christianity (the only true faith), but you are happy to use Jewish oral tradition, even post-Resurrection Jewish oral tradition such as the Talmud, which is certainly devoid of the Holy Spirit. This is even more inexplicable.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 09:34:15 AM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #903 on: October 12, 2010, 09:37:15 AM »

Again, you miss the point made. I am not blaming God for sowing confusion. I am blaming man for sowing confusion by relying on his own mind and intellect....

AND you miss the simple fact God ruled out adding tradition to His word:

{Snip}

Therefore man's inability to understand His Word without Tradition is God's fault...

Moreover, you are superior to God...no tradition is required for me to read your words with understanding.

IN fact, school children across the land do every day, what God evidently could not, communicate by writing without a body of tradition.

So you are blaming God when you blame reading the Bible.

As for Madison, its clear from his quote, he blames men, not the Bible.

AND you deny reality...sola scripturaist have a higher level of agreement as to what scripture says, than you traditionalists do...

You folks can't even agree on a commentary that details what Scripture says.

You point to the fathers...what good is that when you don't heed them, the vast majority of them believed in Christ's millennial kingdom, so you pick and choose what you like in the fathers...evidently that's why you don't author an "approved commentary detailing what the fathers taught" lest you have to teach the same.

Its as though you folks are "pathological", totally misrepresenting what you do as everyone thinking alike, when its obvious to everyone that is precisely what you  don't do.

Then you justify your disorder and dissension, by citing cults and non sola scripturaists, and apostates, as proof you are more unified than those who read the Bible alone...the hubris is incredible.  

You have indeed proven his point.  You're the only person, out of dozens that have seen his post, to erroneously interpret his words in that way; the rest of us clearly saw his intention and true meaning.  It then stands that you individually are incapable of interpreting what he said because of a defect in your thinking (which I do not believe to be true), or you have demonstrated that even clear statements with clear intentions and meanings can be misinterpreted by people because human beings are imperfect.

Incorrect, I never disputed that point, rather I insisted the blame is on man, not scripture.

I do dispute man is unable to overcome the defects in his character and interpret writing, then law, contracts, literature in general, probably wouldn't exist...for who could understand it?

Your argument  rests upon the fallacy of special pleading, that the Bible alone, unique among all the literature in existence, cannot be understood by itself, it requires tradition to complete its sense....a proposition you don't hold when you read my posts, or those of others. Then it seems you have no problem reading and understanding without tradition's input.

That is special pleading and is insulting to its author given God is Omniscient, you must be saying He authored confusion on purpose....wrote scripture to confuse us.

That would be evil, would it not?

So you cannot argue the Bible cannot be understood without tradition, for then God's failure to identify and precisely define that tradition inevitally leads to evil, and then God is the author of evil...a premise you certainly would reject.

Therefore you cannot special plead The Bible alone, unique among all  literature on the planet, cannot be understood without tradition, for when you do, you are ascribing evil to God.
Actually, Alfred, yes we can. Only the Bible claims to be divinely inspired, while all other documents are merely the writings of men. You seem to be asserting that anything God inspires should be perfectly clear and easy to understand. I'm actually not sure we can claim that for any of our ancient documents, even those not claiming divine inspiration. Can you claim that for Homer's Iliad? Good luck trying to convince us that you can.

Unsound, what makes literature readable is not who authored it, its the words used, therefore the property of divine authorship is irrelevant to the question if the words used are comprehensible.

We can illustrate the unsoundness of your argument, by applying it. If Divine authorship = incomprehensible literature, then God babbles, for that is what incomprehensible language is considered. Or some may believe the author mad:

Then certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, "What does this babbler want to say?"  (Act 17:18 NKJ)

 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. ...

Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? (1Co 14:19,23 NKJ)

It is impossible to diminish scripture as incomprehensible without xyz "key" without insulting its author, who failed to identify the precise "xyz key" thus guaranteeing confusion.


Especially as God is Omniscient, its impossible He didn't know precisely what His Word would do:

 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. (Isa 55:11 NKJ)

I am convinced God's Word is expertly written to separate the wheat from the chaff. Therefore pointing to cults and sects is merely revealing the efficacy of God's word when pruning the tree.

BUT to  say NONE of us can understand God's Word, is directly contradicted by Paul:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:15-17 NKJ)

Incomprehensible scripture could not make a child wise unto salvation.
Incomprehensible scripture could not be profitable for doctrine.
Incomprehensible scripture could not be profitable for reproof.
Incomprehensible scripture could not be profitable for correction.
Incomprehensible scripture could not be profitable for instruction in righteousness
Incomprehensible scripture could not be profitable toward making the man of God complete.
Incomprehensible scripture could not thoroughly equip for every good work.








For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #904 on: October 12, 2010, 09:53:04 AM »
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? (1Co 14:36 KJV)

Your denials of this text are unconvincing. Paul is confronting Corinthian tradition that perhaps rose up from the tongues, prophecy and knowledge gifts the Holy Spirit inspired.

Did the Holy Spirit inspire error. No, not at all. People did, they either misunderstood what the Holy Spirit was trying to teach them, or they confused what was not from Him, as though it was (Mat 7:22f; 2 Th 2:10; 1 Ti 4:1; 1 Jo 4:1ff cp 1 Jo 2:19f):

NKJ  1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:
 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.
 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
 (1Co 12:1-3 NKJ)

Paul reminds the Corinthians of their former pagan experience with antichrist (instead of Christ) spirits who pretended to be divine, they literally carried them away into idolatry. The mystical experiences associated with idolatry overcame their reason, they were "carried away." So Paul gives them an objective test whether its an evil spirit speaking through a prophet, or God's Holy Spirit. As an evil spirit cannot confess "Jesus is Lord" the prophet saying this, while under "control" of the Spirit proves he is speaking by God's Holy Spirit, the one saying "Jesus is accursed" proves he is speaking by demonic spirit, because (the contrast implies), the Holy Spirit could never say that.

The point is, the experience itself is not being distinguished, Paul is not saying "the real Holy Spirit feels different"...He is rather providing a way to objectively identify the spirit speaking.

The majority of Corinthians were tired of all the false prophecy and tongues a minority was babbling, and were going to forbid all tongues speaking:

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:39-40 NKJ)

Same thing happened in Thessalonica:

20 Do not despise prophecies.
 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
 (1Th 5:20-21 NKJ)

The point is, the  bad teaching entered the "living tradition of the church" and Paul confronts it, saying that material is NOT the Word of God, it is NOT on the same level at all:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
(1Co 14:36-37 NKJ)


If "living tradition in the church" is inspired without error, then most of the New Testament written to correct errors in Church tradition wouldn't have been written, there wouldn't have been any errors in the Church tradition to correct, as Paul is certainly doing throughout 1 Corinthians and in particular chapters 12-14.

Even the proposition "apostolic oral tradition in the church is inerrant" is contradicted by Paul in Galatians:

 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8 NKJ)

 11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.
 (Gal 2:11-13 NKJ)

If Paul had not publicly rebuked Peter's error, his "living tradition in the church" might still be contradicting the gospel of Christ.


I think the proposition its possible to misunderstand what the Holy Spirit is indicating, should be documented:

searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. (1Pe 1:11 NKJ)

Guidance is not dictation, its possible one might "jump to a conclusion" before one has correctly understood the Holy Spirit's teaching:

 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
 (1Co 14:28-29 NKJ)

So its possible to judge the prophet erred, misunderstood the prophecy he was given, without thereby concluding he is therefore a "false prophet."

The Holy Spirit's guidance is called "perception" (οἴδατε) by the apostle John:

NKJ  1 John 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Paul likens the experience to the witness of one's conscience:


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God...

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
 (Rom 8:16, 9:1 NKJ)


We perceive (know) we are God's children, we perceive (know) right and wrong, by the Holy Spirit's bearing our spirit witness.

But its not dictation, not verbal inspiration as is God's Word, its a perception that requires diligent investigation into the data, to uncover the precise information being taught. AND its possible, given our fallen nature, that we fail to do this correctly, and in spite of the "doubts" we have, conclude "xyz is what the Spirit showed me."

"Doubts" can also be God's Spirit bearing witness "that is wrong."

So while the Holy Spirit's guidance is available to every one of us, it does not mean we are infallible or that we speak the "word of God."

That was Paul's point, unlike the Corinthian tradition, Paul spoke the very word of God:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

If one is really guided by the Holy Spirit, then they will listen to the apostles:


 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jo 4:6 NKJ)

They will know God spoke through the apostles, their word is not like ours, it was the word of God:

 13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. (1Th 2:13 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 10:09:24 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #905 on: October 12, 2010, 10:20:19 AM »
Sola scriptura holds the Bible as the Supreme Authority, while allowing one be open to everything, including tradition, the fathers, and especially the Holy Spirit.

So then... We're good. :)

All that's left is our identity as the actual Historical Church. As such we have a guarantee of guidance from the Holy Spirit and also we have the longest and deepest experience.

What's not to like?
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #906 on: October 12, 2010, 11:27:03 AM »

Again, you miss the point made. I am not blaming God for sowing confusion. I am blaming man for sowing confusion by relying on his own mind and intellect....

AND you miss the simple fact God ruled out adding tradition to His word:

{Snip}

Therefore man's inability to understand His Word without Tradition is God's fault...

Moreover, you are superior to God...no tradition is required for me to read your words with understanding.

IN fact, school children across the land do every day, what God evidently could not, communicate by writing without a body of tradition.

So you are blaming God when you blame reading the Bible.

As for Madison, its clear from his quote, he blames men, not the Bible.

AND you deny reality...sola scripturaist have a higher level of agreement as to what scripture says, than you traditionalists do...

You folks can't even agree on a commentary that details what Scripture says.

You point to the fathers...what good is that when you don't heed them, the vast majority of them believed in Christ's millennial kingdom, so you pick and choose what you like in the fathers...evidently that's why you don't author an "approved commentary detailing what the fathers taught" lest you have to teach the same.

Its as though you folks are "pathological", totally misrepresenting what you do as everyone thinking alike, when its obvious to everyone that is precisely what you  don't do.

Then you justify your disorder and dissension, by citing cults and non sola scripturaists, and apostates, as proof you are more unified than those who read the Bible alone...the hubris is incredible.  

You have indeed proven his point.  You're the only person, out of dozens that have seen his post, to erroneously interpret his words in that way; the rest of us clearly saw his intention and true meaning.  It then stands that you individually are incapable of interpreting what he said because of a defect in your thinking (which I do not believe to be true), or you have demonstrated that even clear statements with clear intentions and meanings can be misinterpreted by people because human beings are imperfect.

Incorrect, I never disputed that point, rather I insisted the blame is on man, not scripture.

I do dispute man is unable to overcome the defects in his character and interpret writing, then law, contracts, literature in general, probably wouldn't exist...for who could understand it?

Your argument  rests upon the fallacy of special pleading, that the Bible alone, unique among all the literature in existence, cannot be understood by itself, it requires tradition to complete its sense....a proposition you don't hold when you read my posts, or those of others. Then it seems you have no problem reading and understanding without tradition's input.

That is special pleading and is insulting to its author given God is Omniscient, you must be saying He authored confusion on purpose....wrote scripture to confuse us.

That would be evil, would it not?

So you cannot argue the Bible cannot be understood without tradition, for then God's failure to identify and precisely define that tradition inevitally leads to evil, and then God is the author of evil...a premise you certainly would reject.

Therefore you cannot special plead The Bible alone, unique among all  literature on the planet, cannot be understood without tradition, for when you do, you are ascribing evil to God.
Actually, Alfred, yes we can. Only the Bible claims to be divinely inspired, while all other documents are merely the writings of men. You seem to be asserting that anything God inspires should be perfectly clear and easy to understand. I'm actually not sure we can claim that for any of our ancient documents, even those not claiming divine inspiration. Can you claim that for Homer's Iliad? Good luck trying to convince us that you can.

Unsound, what makes literature readable is not who authored it, its the words used, therefore the property of divine authorship is irrelevant to the question if the words used are comprehensible.
Evidently for you, it's the words used that make literature UN-readable, since you seem unable to properly comprehend what people write on this thread. How much less, then, can we trust your comprehension of the text of Scripture. That's the point Fr. George and others are trying to bring out. You're not the only one who has trouble comprehending what others write even when they're trying to be easy to understand. Most people are like you in this regard.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 11:32:41 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #907 on: October 12, 2010, 11:30:19 AM »

BUT to  say NONE of us can understand God's Word, is directly contradicted by Paul:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:15-17 NKJ)

Incomprehensible scripture could not make a child wise unto salvation.
Incomprehensible scripture could not be profitable for doctrine.
Incomprehensible scripture could not be profitable for reproof.
Incomprehensible scripture could not be profitable for correction.
Incomprehensible scripture could not be profitable for instruction in righteousness
Incomprehensible scripture could not be profitable toward making the man of God complete.
Incomprehensible scripture could not thoroughly equip for every good work.
Alfred, we've been through this before, but it is a point that needs regular review.

The Apostle Paul very clearly stated that others are needed to teach. See verse 14 that immediately precedes what you quoted:
"But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them" (NKJV). The Apostle then continues, as you quoted, "AND that...." The instruction from others goes along with reading the Scriptures.

It's clear, Alfred, that you have learned a lot of Scripture and have worked hard to understand them. To whom did you go for your basic learning? I'm sure you didn't just happen to find a Bible lying on a park bench which you picked up, read, and were divinely enlightened. You have had your teachers as well. You trust them. We trust our teachers. What we need to do is determine the reliability of our teachers. We do not hide the fact that we trace ours back through the history of the Church to the Apostles. Would you be kind enough to outline for us your teachers and their backgrounds to help us understand their reliability?

Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #908 on: October 12, 2010, 12:10:52 PM »
OK, Alfred  has admitted that the Orthodox Church is like "90%" Biblical and this is good. Personally I cannot see how one could not at least express their faith in accordance to God's revelation in scripture (as  I have been drum beating the 2 great commands, the 10 comm. etc.). Now perhaps an example from the immediate post apostolic moment can be considered. Take for ex. the letter of St. Clement of Rome to Corinth (before 100 AD), which was addressing the same ongoing problems St. Paul had addressed. If we refer to this with authority according to holy tradition, does Alfred consider this somehow going against the Bible? I mean no antagonism or sarcasm I am just trying to understand where he is coming from, I wish the earler tone of this odyssey was more like it is now but that's ok.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #909 on: October 12, 2010, 12:31:03 PM »
Alfred, I find talking to you about as edifying as speaking to a brick wall; I say "about" because there is still the chance that there is an Angel I cannot see standing in front of that wall.  I know I still owe you a thorough compendium of the posts and points made to refute your arguments viz-a-viz iconography and St. John of Damscus; but in the middle of the tedious task of compiling I came to the realization that I could hand you the gilded words of God supporting icons and you would reject it anyway.  However, hoping that I am wrong in my ultimate assessment, I may continue to engage you in dialogue on this subject; my hope is keenly aware, though, that you have proven yourself to be as receptive to new information and interpretation here as the moon is responsive to my attempts to blow it out of orbit at night with my breath.

Incorrect, I never disputed that point, rather I insisted the blame is on man, not scripture.

I think you're starting your position from an erroneous point, to wit: that scripture was intended to be read by all from the beginning.  But as we have seen, it wasn't - it was intended to be read, then interpreted, in communal settings by those who were schooled in the totality of scripture (and Tradition, as we Orthodox would argue).  Denying this fact would be to put blinders on to how the scripture was transmitted and proclaimed for hundreds of years, both in OT and NT times.

I do dispute man is unable to overcome the defects in his character and interpret writing, then law, contracts, literature in general, probably wouldn't exist...for who could understand it?

You are equating the Bible to all other writings in existence (including horrid tracts like the Qur'an and the Anarchist's Cookbook), but at the same time proclaim that it was written by God.  You seem to have a problem with internal consistency (something pointed out to you in every discussion you've started here).

Your argument  rests upon the fallacy of special pleading, that the Bible alone, unique among all the literature in existence, cannot be understood by itself, it requires tradition to complete its sense....a proposition you don't hold when you read my posts, or those of others. Then it seems you have no problem reading and understanding without tradition's input.

I wouldn't argue that the Bible alone needs interpretation, and society would agree with me.  Can you earn a medical degree by reading all the books on Medicine and then showing up for 1 test?  Can you earn a law degree by reading law books and then taking the bar exam?  Our entire system of education, at least from the earliest documented times, has rested upon the simple fact that most things require at least some initial interpretation by folks who are more familiar with the subject than yourself.  There are numerous reasons for this, beginning with the fact that it is impossible to grasp a concept or system without experiencing it, but you should be educated before you attempt it; there is also the human desire (I believe implanted by God) to build on the experiences of others in order to streamline the educational process (I'm glad now that someone told me knives were sharp and could hurt me - I'd hate to discover that one on my own).  There is also the passing down of oral tradition, something that has only been seriously discounted in the last 150 or so years by the exponential proliferation of books and the increased availability of inexpensive quality writing materials to the masses.

That is special pleading and is insulting to its author given God is Omniscient, you must be saying He authored confusion on purpose....wrote scripture to confuse us.

Your logic doesn't follow (or, I should say, isn't present here, unless "your logic" is illogical by everyone else's standards).  The special treatment of scripture is demanded by the Author, and is a testament to the supreme Divine Logic that lies behind not only the written words, but (more importantly) the events portrayed.

That would be evil, would it not?

You've created evil where there is none.

So you cannot argue the Bible cannot be understood without tradition, for then God's failure to identify and precisely define that tradition inevitally leads to evil, and then God is the author of evil...a premise you certainly would reject.

God has indentified and precisely defined the tradition, and many of the sons of men chose to reject it in favor of their own logic; sounds very "Adam and Eve-like" to me.

Therefore you cannot special plead The Bible alone, unique among all  literature on the planet, cannot be understood without tradition, for when you do, you are ascribing evil to God.

Your logic (or lack thereof) doesn't follow.  Re-stating your premise without adequate support doesn't make it any more true.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #910 on: October 13, 2010, 09:02:42 AM »
Alfred, I find talking to you about as edifying as speaking to a brick wall; I say "about" because there is still the chance that there is an Angel I cannot see standing in front of that wall.  I know I still owe you a thorough compendium of the posts and points made to refute your arguments viz-a-viz iconography and St. John of Damscus; but in the middle of the tedious task of compiling I came to the realization that I could hand you the gilded words of God supporting icons and you would reject it anyway. ..


Oh no you don't, you don't get to blame me for your utter failure, you claimed to have refuted my arguments, when challenged to prove it, you said you could...and failed.

Your continued evasion must be noted, there are no sound proofs for your position, and you never have addressed any of my arguments, you and all  others here, are "guilty as charged":

What were the charges? Let's review your post of Aug 10, Reply #572


Referring me to a thread is absurd, that's not proof...its like pointing to a public library and claiming "the refutation is there!" That ain't proof, its evasion.

I've shown you otherwise, and yet you continue to stomp your feet and shout.  Too bad.

Fact is, nothing I've said has been refuted...its all been buried under icons, ad hominem, and tangential material.

I'm 25 minutes into compiling all the refutations - by the time I'm finished, I'll give you enough to get a PhD in the Theology of iconography. ( ;) )

That is why you won't copy paste my argument with its precise refutation...none were given.

The reason why I wouldn't do it before is because it is a tedious process - I'm 25 minutes in, and I've only copied 4 refutations for your 1st point of your first post; there are still probably a half a dozen more.

You are at a loss how to respond...admit it.

How childish of you.  Pray that I run out of free time in my day before I finish the compilation.


You claimed to have almost completed the task, after only 25 minutes...and NOW you blame me, in October, for your failure...NO, YOU are evading the fact you have no sound arguments for your position, zip, none, nada.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 09:13:01 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #911 on: October 13, 2010, 09:25:52 AM »
Now I will address the rest of your post.


I think you're starting your position from an erroneous point, to wit: that scripture was intended to be read by all from the beginning.  But as we have seen, it wasn't - it was intended to be read, then interpreted, in communal settings by those who were schooled in the totality of scripture (and Tradition, as we Orthodox would argue).  Denying this fact would be to put blinders on to how the scripture was transmitted and proclaimed for hundreds of years, both in OT and NT times.

I do dispute man is unable to overcome the defects in his character and interpret writing, then law, contracts, literature in general, probably wouldn't exist...for who could understand it?

You are equating the Bible to all other writings in existence (including horrid tracts like the Qur'an and the Anarchist's Cookbook), but at the same time proclaim that it was written by God.  You seem to have a problem with internal consistency (something pointed out to you in every discussion you've started here).

Your argument  rests upon the fallacy of special pleading, that the Bible alone, unique among all the literature in existence, cannot be understood by itself, it requires tradition to complete its sense....a proposition you don't hold when you read my posts, or those of others. Then it seems you have no problem reading and understanding without tradition's input.

I wouldn't argue that the Bible alone needs interpretation, and society would agree with me.  Can you earn a medical degree by reading all the books on Medicine and then showing up for 1 test?  Can you earn a law degree by reading law books and then taking the bar exam?  Our entire system of education, at least from the earliest documented times, has rested upon the simple fact that most things require at least some initial interpretation by folks who are more familiar with the subject than yourself.  There are numerous reasons for this, beginning with the fact that it is impossible to grasp a concept or system without experiencing it, but you should be educated before you attempt it; there is also the human desire (I believe implanted by God) to build on the experiences of others in order to streamline the educational process (I'm glad now that someone told me knives were sharp and could hurt me - I'd hate to discover that one on my own).  There is also the passing down of oral tradition, something that has only been seriously discounted in the last 150 or so years by the exponential proliferation of books and the increased availability of inexpensive quality writing materials to the masses.

That is special pleading and is insulting to its author given God is Omniscient, you must be saying He authored confusion on purpose....wrote scripture to confuse us.

Your logic doesn't follow (or, I should say, isn't present here, unless "your logic" is illogical by everyone else's standards).  The special treatment of scripture is demanded by the Author, and is a testament to the supreme Divine Logic that lies behind not only the written words, but (more importantly) the events portrayed.

That would be evil, would it not?

You've created evil where there is none.

So you cannot argue the Bible cannot be understood without tradition, for then God's failure to identify and precisely define that tradition inevitally leads to evil, and then God is the author of evil...a premise you certainly would reject.

God has indentified and precisely defined the tradition, and many of the sons of men chose to reject it in favor of their own logic; sounds very "Adam and Eve-like" to me.

Therefore you cannot special plead The Bible alone, unique among all  literature on the planet, cannot be understood without tradition, for when you do, you are ascribing evil to God.

Your logic (or lack thereof) doesn't follow.  Re-stating your premise without adequate support doesn't make it any more true.

It is you who are evading the implicit premise of sola scriptura:

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2Co 5:10 KJV)

I will be judged for what I chose to do, not what you chose for me. If I choose to heed you, rather than God, I am guilty and will pay for that rebellion:

22 Then Samuel said: "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.
 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He also has rejected you from being king." (1Sa 15:22-23 NKJ)

It is irrelevant, immaterial and utterly incompetent you suppose God's providing the church with apostles, prophets, teachers etc (1 Cor 12:28) will in any way excuse your following false doctrine.

No one can blame God when they choose to rebel against His Word the Bible.

The responsibility to verify teaching is ours, we all are liable for choosing to follow men, rather than God.

Sola Scriptura is obeying God rather than man, just as the apostles said they do:

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. (Act 5:29 KJV)

AND everything you argue is an evasion of that apostolic doctrine.

Everything you argue is irrelevant as you will be judged for nullifying God's Word for the sake of your traditions.

Any pathetic excuse you were following the teachers who claimed to be from God won't save you, the responsibility to check their teaching by the Scripture was upon you.

God commanded we obey His Word even when miracle workers teach otherwise, THEREFORE all your protests we cannot understand God's Word without teachers are ABSURD...God would not make us liable if we couldn't understand His Word and realize when its is being contradicted:

32 "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.
NKJ  Deuteronomy 13:1 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
 2 "and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying,`Let us go after other gods'-- which you have not known--`and let us serve them,'
 3 "you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
 4 "You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.
 (Deu 12:32-4 NKJ)


It would be impossible to walk after the LORD's commandments, if we couldn't comprehend them.

This text REQUIRES we can know what is in God's Word:

 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)


You ARE special pleading. All literature that isn't babble, can be interpreted correctly. The Bible is literature, not babble, therefore it can be interpreted correctly.

To allege it lacks sufficiency without your tradition, is a contradiction of apostolic doctrine which states clearly the scriptures can instruct and completely equip for every good work...that includes the good work of being able to teach the faith to others:

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)


Scripture that is incomprehensible without tradition is NOT profitable for any of the items mentioned, therefore Paul doesn't believe any tradition is necessary to understand Scripture. He says even a child can be made wise unto salvation (v. 15) by Scripture.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 09:43:51 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #912 on: October 13, 2010, 09:35:47 AM »
Assertions and prooftexts. Yawn.

We don't accept your exegesis or your biblical interpretations. Either prove Sola Scriptura using means we recognize (I.e., prove it has been accepted in all places, at all times, and by all), or just give up. That you refuse to engage us using our own standards shows you're only interested in hearing yourself talk at this point.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #913 on: October 13, 2010, 09:49:51 AM »
Assertions and prooftexts. Yawn.

We don't accept your exegesis or your biblical interpretations. Either prove Sola Scriptura using means we recognize (I.e., prove it has been accepted in all places, at all times, and by all), or just give up. That you refuse to engage us using our own standards shows you're only interested in hearing yourself talk at this point.

Only those who cannot prove what they say is correct, disparage proofs.

You don't accept scripture texts as proof, but you do the teaching of men.

That is an odd choice for a Christian, especially when Jesus said:

 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 (Mat 15:7-9 NKJ)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #914 on: October 13, 2010, 09:55:33 AM »
Assertions and prooftexts. Yawn.

We don't accept your exegesis or your biblical interpretations. Either prove Sola Scriptura using means we recognize (I.e., prove it has been accepted in all places, at all times, and by all), or just give up. That you refuse to engage us using our own standards shows you're only interested in hearing yourself talk at this point.

Only those who cannot prove what they say is correct, disparage proofs.

You don't accept scripture texts as proof, but you do the teaching of men.

That is an odd choice for a Christian, especially when Jesus said:

 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 (Mat 15:7-9 NKJ)
Prooftexting is not the same thing as offering proof. Prooftexting is pulling passages out of context and reading your novelties back into the text when they were not even there in the first place.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #915 on: October 13, 2010, 10:17:22 AM »
Assertions and prooftexts. Yawn.

We don't accept your exegesis or your biblical interpretations. Either prove Sola Scriptura using means we recognize (I.e., prove it has been accepted in all places, at all times, and by all), or just give up. That you refuse to engage us using our own standards shows you're only interested in hearing yourself talk at this point.

Only those who cannot prove what they say is correct, disparage proofs.

You don't accept scripture texts as proof, but you do the teaching of men.

That is an odd choice for a Christian, especially when Jesus said:

 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 (Mat 15:7-9 NKJ)

Prove the Church believed in Sola Scriptura in the first century, second century, third century, fourth century, all the way until today. If your interpretation of scripture is right, then there should be ample proof that this belief was held. But I've been a sola scriptura Protestant, and I have researched it already. I know there is no proof. Just a lot of fuzzy history and assumptions.

Francis Schaeffer made the same assertions decades ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLDgrBGwMX8  Of course, like you, he offered no proof.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 10:22:31 AM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #916 on: October 13, 2010, 11:35:27 AM »
Assertions and prooftexts. Yawn.

We don't accept your exegesis or your biblical interpretations. Either prove Sola Scriptura using means we recognize (I.e., prove it has been accepted in all places, at all times, and by all), or just give up. That you refuse to engage us using our own standards shows you're only interested in hearing yourself talk at this point.

Only those who cannot prove what they say is correct, disparage proofs.

You don't accept scripture texts as proof, but you do the teaching of men.

That is an odd choice for a Christian, especially when Jesus said:

 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 (Mat 15:7-9 NKJ)

Prove the Church believed in Sola Scriptura in the first century, second century, third century, fourth century, all the way until today. If your interpretation of scripture is right, then there should be ample proof that this belief was held. But I've been a sola scriptura Protestant, and I have researched it already. I know there is no proof. Just a lot of fuzzy history and assumptions.

Francis Schaeffer made the same assertions decades ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLDgrBGwMX8  Of course, like you, he offered no proof.

No, its irrelevant.

The only thing relevant is what Christ and His apostles taught us to do.

Its very clear the apostles did not obey a magisterium, or any traditions of men, above God:

"We ought to obey God rather than men." (Act 5:29 NKJ) = Sola Scriptura as God's Word today exists only in Scripture.

It is elementary, God is the Supreme Being, therefore His Word has Supreme Authority.

As God's Word today is found only in Scripture, Sola Scriptura is deducible from apostolic doctrine.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #917 on: October 13, 2010, 11:42:04 AM »
Assertions and prooftexts. Yawn.

We don't accept your exegesis or your biblical interpretations. Either prove Sola Scriptura using means we recognize (I.e., prove it has been accepted in all places, at all times, and by all), or just give up. That you refuse to engage us using our own standards shows you're only interested in hearing yourself talk at this point.

Only those who cannot prove what they say is correct, disparage proofs.

You don't accept scripture texts as proof, but you do the teaching of men.

That is an odd choice for a Christian, especially when Jesus said:

 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 (Mat 15:7-9 NKJ)
Prooftexting is not the same thing as offering proof. Prooftexting is pulling passages out of context and reading your novelties back into the text when they were not even there in the first place.

Sophistry, the texts I cite are in context, and naturally interpreted, therefore they are proof.

You diminish Scripture in practice, because you have made Scripture of no effect for the sake of your tradition.

 "Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 (Mat 15:6-9 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 11:45:06 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #918 on: October 13, 2010, 11:47:33 AM »
Nope. The Word of God Incarnate is Jesus Christ. Since the Church is Christ's Body, the Church has supreme authority. The Bible's authority—which is great, to be sure—is derived from the Church. Same with the Fathers' authority and Iconography's authority.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 11:48:17 AM by bogdan »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #919 on: October 13, 2010, 12:24:00 PM »
Alfred, I find talking to you about as edifying as speaking to a brick wall; I say "about" because there is still the chance that there is an Angel I cannot see standing in front of that wall.  I know I still owe you a thorough compendium of the posts and points made to refute your arguments viz-a-viz iconography and St. John of Damscus; but in the middle of the tedious task of compiling I came to the realization that I could hand you the gilded words of God supporting icons and you would reject it anyway. ..


Oh no you don't, you don't get to blame me for your utter failure, you claimed to have refuted my arguments, when challenged to prove it, you said you could...and failed.

Your continued evasion must be noted, there are no sound proofs for your position, and you never have addressed any of my arguments, you and all  others here, are "guilty as charged":

What were the charges? Let's review your post of Aug 10, Reply #572


Referring me to a thread is absurd, that's not proof...its like pointing to a public library and claiming "the refutation is there!" That ain't proof, its evasion.

I've shown you otherwise, and yet you continue to stomp your feet and shout.  Too bad.

Fact is, nothing I've said has been refuted...its all been buried under icons, ad hominem, and tangential material.

I'm 25 minutes into compiling all the refutations - by the time I'm finished, I'll give you enough to get a PhD in the Theology of iconography. ( ;) )

That is why you won't copy paste my argument with its precise refutation...none were given.

The reason why I wouldn't do it before is because it is a tedious process - I'm 25 minutes in, and I've only copied 4 refutations for your 1st point of your first post; there are still probably a half a dozen more.

You are at a loss how to respond...admit it.

How childish of you.  Pray that I run out of free time in my day before I finish the compilation.


You claimed to have almost completed the task, after only 25 minutes...and NOW you blame me, in October, for your failure...NO, YOU are evading the fact you have no sound arguments for your position, zip, none, nada.


Actually, Alfred, Fr. George is right, and your cocky response proves it.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #920 on: October 13, 2010, 12:28:01 PM »
Assertions and prooftexts. Yawn.

We don't accept your exegesis or your biblical interpretations. Either prove Sola Scriptura using means we recognize (I.e., prove it has been accepted in all places, at all times, and by all), or just give up. That you refuse to engage us using our own standards shows you're only interested in hearing yourself talk at this point.

Only those who cannot prove what they say is correct, disparage proofs.
Looks like you're the only one disparaging proofs here.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #921 on: October 13, 2010, 12:29:55 PM »
Assertions and prooftexts. Yawn.

We don't accept your exegesis or your biblical interpretations. Either prove Sola Scriptura using means we recognize (I.e., prove it has been accepted in all places, at all times, and by all), or just give up. That you refuse to engage us using our own standards shows you're only interested in hearing yourself talk at this point.

Only those who cannot prove what they say is correct, disparage proofs.

You don't accept scripture texts as proof, but you do the teaching of men.

That is an odd choice for a Christian, especially when Jesus said:

 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 (Mat 15:7-9 NKJ)
Prooftexting is not the same thing as offering proof. Prooftexting is pulling passages out of context and reading your novelties back into the text when they were not even there in the first place.

Sophistry, the texts I cite are in context, and naturally interpreted, therefore they are proof.
Proving something to us is not proving it so that YOU are convinced. You have to convince US. Thus far you have not, so no, whatever you have provided as evidence of your assertions is NOT proof.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 12:31:01 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #922 on: October 13, 2010, 12:42:36 PM »
Nope. The Word of God Incarnate is Jesus Christ. Since the Church is Christ's Body, the Church has supreme authority. The Bible's authority—which is great, to be sure—is derived from the Church. Same with the Fathers' authority and Iconography's authority.

And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.

For example, the redundancy:

NKJ Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for JESUS CHRIST, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


If JESUS CHRIST alone is the Word of God, and scripture is not the Word of God, then the following texts will still make sense when JESUS CHRIST is read instead of "the word of God":


NKJ Mark 7:13 "making JESUS CHRIST of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
NKJ Luke 3:2 while Annas and Caiaphas were high priests, JESUS CHRIST came to John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
NKJ Luke 4:4 But Jesus answered him, saying, "It is written,`Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every JESUS CHRIST.'"
NKJ Luke 5:1 So it was, as the multitude pressed about Him to hear JESUS CHRIST, that He stood by the Lake of Gennesaret,
NKJ Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is JESUS CHRIST.
NKJ Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear JESUS CHRIST and do it."
NKJ Luke 11:28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear JESUS CHRIST and keep it!"
NKJ John 10:35 "If He called them gods, to whom JESUS CHRIST came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
NKJ Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke JESUS CHRIST with boldness.
NKJ Acts 6:2 Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable that we should leave JESUS CHRIST and serve tables.
NKJ Acts 6:7 Then JESUS CHRIST spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.
NKJ Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received JESUS CHRIST, they sent Peter and John to them,
NKJ Acts 11:1 Now the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received JESUS CHRIST.
NKJ Acts 12:24 But JESUS CHRIST grew and multiplied.
NKJ Acts 13:5 And when they arrived in Salamis, they preached JESUS CHRIST in the synagogues of the Jews. They also had John as their assistant.
NKJ Acts 13:7 who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man. This man called for Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear JESUS CHRIST.
NKJ Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear JESUS CHRIST.
NKJ Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that JESUS CHRIST should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
NKJ Acts 17:13 But when the Jews from Thessalonica learned that JESUS CHRIST was preached by Paul at Berea, they came there also and stirred up the crowds.
NKJ Acts 18:11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching JESUS CHRIST among them.
NKJ Romans 9:6 But it is not that JESUS CHRIST has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
NKJ Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by JESUS CHRIST.
NKJ 1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did JESUS CHRIST come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
NKJ 2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not, as so many, peddling JESUS CHRIST; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ.
NKJ 2 Corinthians 4:2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling JESUS CHRIST deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
NKJ Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is JESUS CHRIST;
NKJ Colossians 1:25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill JESUS CHRIST,
NKJ 1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received JESUS CHRIST which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, JESUS CHRIST, which also effectively works in you who believe.
NKJ 1 Timothy 4:5 for it is sanctified by JESUS CHRIST and prayer.
NKJ 2 Timothy 2:9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but JESUS CHRIST is not chained.
NKJ Titus 2:5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that JESUS CHRIST may not be blasphemed.
NKJ Hebrews 4:12 For JESUS CHRIST is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
NKJ Hebrews 6:5 and have tasted the good JESUS CHRIST and the powers of the age to come,
NKJ Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by JESUS CHRIST, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
NKJ Hebrews 13:7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken JESUS CHRIST to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.
NKJ 1 Peter 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through JESUS CHRIST which lives and abides forever,
NKJ 2 Peter 3:5 For this they willfully forget: that by JESUS CHRIST the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water,
NKJ 1 John 2:14 I have written to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, Because you are strong, and JESUS CHRIST abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one.
NKJ Revelation 1:2 who bore witness to JESUS CHRIST, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.
NKJ Revelation 1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for JESUS CHRIST and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
NKJ Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for JESUS CHRIST and for the testimony which they held.
NKJ Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for JESUS CHRIST, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 12:47:57 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #923 on: October 13, 2010, 01:00:54 PM »
Nope. The Word of God Incarnate is Jesus Christ. Since the Church is Christ's Body, the Church has supreme authority. The Bible's authority—which is great, to be sure—is derived from the Church. Same with the Fathers' authority and Iconography's authority.

And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.
I think you're missing a fundamental difference, however. These passages speak of the "word of God", not the "Word of God". It is you who are capitalizing the W in "Word of God" to make of the Scriptures more than the Scriptures make of themselves. By capitalizing the W in "word of God", you make a personal pronoun out of "word of God" that implies an identity with the person of Jesus Christ that the Scriptures themselves don't support. Additionally, by using the definitive article "THE" together with the uppercase "W", you imply an exclusivity that cannot possibly be applied in a logical way to both the Scriptures AND to our Lord--only one can be the Word of God, and that is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Simply call the Scriptures the "word of God" and call Jesus alone the "Word of God", and you don't deviate from how the Scriptures view each.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 01:22:51 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #924 on: October 13, 2010, 02:36:31 PM »
I think it would help you, Alfred, to understand how we view the Gospel.

The Gospel—the Word, as you say—is an icon of Jesus Christ.

Icons, the physical objects, are afforded a great deal of respect, but they ultimately are only of value because they point to a human person. In this case, Christ.

It would be idolatry to adore an icon as if it were God.

It would be idolatry to say both the icon and Christ are God.

Only Christ is God. The icon points us to Him, and the icon is a physical touchpoint to him, but the icon is not God.

Yet, when you say "both [the Bible and Christ] are the Word" as you say in #922, you do exactly that. You idolize the Bible because you say it is equal to, or supercedes, or contradicts, Christ and His Body, the Church.

The Bible is an icon of Christ and points to Christ, but only the Church is Christ's Body. The Bible is derived from the Church (since the Church wrote it, preserved it, compiled it, and authorized it within her Tradition).
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 02:40:16 PM by bogdan »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #925 on: October 13, 2010, 02:36:41 PM »
And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.

So did the Bible become flesh and dwell among us?  ;)
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #926 on: October 13, 2010, 04:00:29 PM »
Assertions and prooftexts. Yawn.

We don't accept your exegesis or your biblical interpretations. Either prove Sola Scriptura using means we recognize (I.e., prove it has been accepted in all places, at all times, and by all), or just give up. That you refuse to engage us using our own standards shows you're only interested in hearing yourself talk at this point.

Only those who cannot prove what they say is correct, disparage proofs.

You don't accept scripture texts as proof, but you do the teaching of men.

That is an odd choice for a Christian, especially when Jesus said:

 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 (Mat 15:7-9 NKJ)

Prove the Church believed in Sola Scriptura in the first century, second century, third century, fourth century, all the way until today. If your interpretation of scripture is right, then there should be ample proof that this belief was held. But I've been a sola scriptura Protestant, and I have researched it already. I know there is no proof. Just a lot of fuzzy history and assumptions.

Francis Schaeffer made the same assertions decades ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLDgrBGwMX8  Of course, like you, he offered no proof.

No, its irrelevant.

The only thing relevant is what Christ and His apostles taught us to do.

Its very clear the apostles did not obey a magisterium, or any traditions of men, above God:

"We ought to obey God rather than men." (Act 5:29 NKJ) = Sola Scriptura as God's Word today exists only in Scripture.

It is elementary, God is the Supreme Being, therefore His Word has Supreme Authority.

As God's Word today is found only in Scripture, Sola Scriptura is deducible from apostolic doctrine.



Its very clear the apostles did not obey a magisterium

Are you seriously claiming that the apostles didnt think the Church had the authority to teach Christianity???

"Magisterium" is a Catholic term but all it means is that the Church has the authority to teach . 

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #927 on: October 13, 2010, 05:07:51 PM »
And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.

So did the Bible become flesh and dwell among us?  ;)

The Word of God is Jesus Christ.
The Word of God is also Scripture, as I proved in those texts.


It does not follow Jesus and Scripture are the same thing, even though both are the Word of God.

The Son is not the Father, and the Father is not the Holy Spirit,  even though all three are God.


« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 05:12:57 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #928 on: October 13, 2010, 05:15:08 PM »
I think it would help you, Alfred, to understand how we view the Gospel.

The Gospel—the Word, as you say—is an icon of Jesus Christ.

Icons, the physical objects, are afforded a great deal of respect, but they ultimately are only of value because they point to a human person. In this case, Christ.

It would be idolatry to adore an icon as if it were God.

It would be idolatry to say both the icon and Christ are God.

Only Christ is God. The icon points us to Him, and the icon is a physical touchpoint to him, but the icon is not God.

Yet, when you say "both [the Bible and Christ] are the Word" as you say in #922, you do exactly that. You idolize the Bible because you say it is equal to, or supercedes, or contradicts, Christ and His Body, the Church.

The Bible is an icon of Christ and points to Christ, but only the Church is Christ's Body. The Bible is derived from the Church (since the Church wrote it, preserved it, compiled it, and authorized it within her Tradition).

This is a great explanation.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #929 on: October 13, 2010, 05:26:09 PM »
And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.

So did the Bible become flesh and dwell among us?  ;)

The Word of God is Jesus Christ.
The Word of God is also Scripture, as I proved in those texts.
No, you didn't prove it in those texts, as I demonstrated. The Scriptures you cited reveal that the Word of God is Jesus Christ, while the word of God is Scripture (more correctly, the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it has been preserved in Scripture). See the difference?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 08:12:03 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #930 on: October 13, 2010, 05:53:21 PM »
 The Bible isn't the word of God. It's about revelation and about the word of God. Revelation is the appearance of God to the prophets, apostles, and saints. The Bible and the writings of the Fathers are about these appearances, but not the appearances themselves. You could imagine that god is speaking to you directly if you want to, but he really isn't. If he really were. Why would he need the bible to do it?

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #931 on: October 13, 2010, 05:59:18 PM »
The Truth is not an idea, it's a person.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #932 on: October 13, 2010, 06:57:14 PM »
And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.

So did the Bible become flesh and dwell among us?  ;)

I think Protestants would say the Word became the Bible and was "Shelved among US!!"

Great Point Though!!
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 06:58:00 PM by DennyB »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #933 on: October 13, 2010, 07:47:23 PM »
And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.

So did the Bible become flesh and dwell among us?  ;)

Maybe our illustrations of the crucifixion should have the Bible hanging on the cross.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #934 on: October 14, 2010, 01:32:25 AM »
And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.

So did the Bible become flesh and dwell among us?  ;)

The Word of God is Jesus Christ.
The Word of God is also Scripture, as I proved in those texts.
No, you didn't prove it in those texts, as I demonstrated. The Scriptures you cited reveal that the Word of God is Jesus Christ, while the word of God is Scripture (more correctly, the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it has been preserved in Scripture). See the difference?
I'd be willing to bet that if we consulted the original Greek, we'd find that the difference between what we translate to "Word" (Logos) and what we translate to "word" is much more significant than mere capitalization or lack thereof.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #935 on: October 14, 2010, 02:37:40 AM »
Nope. The Word of God Incarnate is Jesus Christ. Since the Church is Christ's Body, the Church has supreme authority. The Bible's authority—which is great, to be sure—is derived from the Church. Same with the Fathers' authority and Iconography's authority.

And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.
I think you're missing a fundamental difference, however. These passages speak of the "word of God", not the "Word of God". It is you who are capitalizing the W in "Word of God" to make of the Scriptures more than the Scriptures make of themselves. By capitalizing the W in "word of God", you make a personal pronoun out of "word of God" that implies an identity with the person of Jesus Christ that the Scriptures themselves don't support. Additionally, by using the definitive article "THE" together with the uppercase "W", you imply an exclusivity that cannot possibly be applied in a logical way to both the Scriptures AND to our Lord--only one can be the Word of God, and that is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Simply call the Scriptures the "word of God" and call Jesus alone the "Word of God", and you don't deviate from how the Scriptures view each.

Your ditty about he definite article makes no sense, here the Bible is called literally  τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ  (Mar 7:13 BYZ), "the word of the God"

Mark 7:13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
 (Mar 7:13 NKJ)


Obviously Jesus is NOT saying they made Jesus of none effect.

So also these texts, even when "the" article τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ  appears, "THE word of God" applies to scripture:

NKJ  Luke 5:1 So it was, as the multitude pressed about Him to hear the word of God, that He stood by the Lake of Gennesaret, (Luk 5:1 NKJ)

NKJ  Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it." (Luk 8:21 NKJ)


NKJ  Luke 11:28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" (Luk 11:28 NKJ)

Your theory is incorrect.

The word of God applies to Jesus because He reveals God, just as Scripture is the "word of God" because it reveals God.

But this is not confusing the two, I do not make the Bible Jesus Christ.

Its a wonder any of you state such absurdity in public...surely you realize such babble is  now immortalized on the NET...and you have all made yourself open to being cited as examples of the inanity coreligionists will resort to... lest at any time they address an issue that contradicts their man made traditions.





« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 02:40:37 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #936 on: October 14, 2010, 05:07:25 AM »
Nope. The Word of God Incarnate is Jesus Christ. Since the Church is Christ's Body, the Church has supreme authority. The Bible's authority—which is great, to be sure—is derived from the Church. Same with the Fathers' authority and Iconography's authority.

And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.
I think you're missing a fundamental difference, however. These passages speak of the "word of God", not the "Word of God". It is you who are capitalizing the W in "Word of God" to make of the Scriptures more than the Scriptures make of themselves. By capitalizing the W in "word of God", you make a personal pronoun out of "word of God" that implies an identity with the person of Jesus Christ that the Scriptures themselves don't support. Additionally, by using the definitive article "THE" together with the uppercase "W", you imply an exclusivity that cannot possibly be applied in a logical way to both the Scriptures AND to our Lord--only one can be the Word of God, and that is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Simply call the Scriptures the "word of God" and call Jesus alone the "Word of God", and you don't deviate from how the Scriptures view each.

Your ditty about he definite article makes no sense, here the Bible is called literally  τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ  (Mar 7:13 BYZ), "the word of the God"
Selective reading strikes again! LMAO! :laugh: You totally miss the fact that I mentioned your use of the definite article only in connection with your practice of capitalizing the W in Word of God when you apply the label to the Scriptures. If we can't trust you to read even our words correctly, how the **** can we trust you to read the Scriptures correctly?

Mark 7:13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
 (Mar 7:13 NKJ)
BTW, Alfred, this passage from the Gospel of Mark does not identify the word of God with the Bible.

Obviously Jesus is NOT saying they made Jesus of none effect.

So also these texts, even when "the" article τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ  appears, "THE word of God" applies to scripture:

NKJ  Luke 5:1 So it was, as the multitude pressed about Him to hear the word of God, that He stood by the Lake of Gennesaret, (Luk 5:1 NKJ)

NKJ  Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it." (Luk 8:21 NKJ)


NKJ  Luke 11:28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" (Luk 11:28 NKJ)

Your theory is incorrect.

The word of God applies to Jesus because He reveals God, just as Scripture is the "word of God" because it reveals God.

But this is not confusing the two, I do not make the Bible Jesus Christ.
So now you call both the Scriptures and Jesus Christ the word of God. Word of God... word of God... Does not that simple uppercase/lowercase difference make any difference to you? I guess not.

Its a wonder any of you state such absurdity in public...surely you realize such babble is  now immortalized on the NET...and you have all made yourself open to being cited as examples of the inanity coreligionists will resort to... lest at any time they address an issue that contradicts their man made traditions.
LMAO! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: That has to be about the funniest thing I've read on the Internet the past few days. You mind if I use this as material for my next humorous speech?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 05:09:55 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #937 on: October 14, 2010, 09:34:06 AM »
And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.

So did the Bible become flesh and dwell among us?  ;)

The Word of God is Jesus Christ.
The Word of God is also Scripture, as I proved in those texts.


It does not follow Jesus and Scripture are the same thing, even though both are the Word of God.

The Son is not the Father, and the Father is not the Holy Spirit,  even though all three are God.

The Bible is an icon of Jesus Christ. The Icon (the Bible) and its Prototype (Christ) cannot both be the prototype—o Logos tou Theou.

Are you saying the Bible and Christ are one in the same way the Trinity is one? LOL, wow. I've never heard of such an idea, even from the most diehard Calvinists (even they're too beholden to Church Tradition to invent such rubbish). You're going to have to back that one up with a mountain of evidence.

That said, I can't really blame you for taking your heresy to its logical conclusion. Usually that results in people realizing how insane it sounds, but clearly that's not the case here.

[edit] Or maybe you're spewing Modalism. Maybe Christ and the Bible are both the Word in different ways, and when taken together, we have the full picture.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 09:43:14 AM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #938 on: October 14, 2010, 10:50:19 AM »
And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.

So did the Bible become flesh and dwell among us?  ;)

The Word of God is Jesus Christ.
The Word of God is also Scripture, as I proved in those texts.


It does not follow Jesus and Scripture are the same thing, even though both are the Word of God.

The Son is not the Father, and the Father is not the Holy Spirit,  even though all three are God.

The Bible is an icon of Jesus Christ. The Icon (the Bible) and its Prototype (Christ) cannot both be the prototype—o Logos tou Theou.

Are you saying the Bible and Christ are one in the same way the Trinity is one? LOL, wow. I've never heard of such an idea, even from the most diehard Calvinists (even they're too beholden to Church Tradition to invent such rubbish). You're going to have to back that one up with a mountain of evidence.

That said, I can't really blame you for taking your heresy to its logical conclusion. Usually that results in people realizing how insane it sounds, but clearly that's not the case here.

[edit] Or maybe you're spewing Modalism. Maybe Christ and the Bible are both the Word in different ways, and when taken together, we have the full picture.

I never called the Bible an icon, that is your straw man.

Scripture is the Word of God, God wrote it.

Jesus is the Word of God, God sends Him to speak for Him.

Scripture is not Jesus Christ.


Jesus is God
The Father is God

Jesus is not the Father.

You folks are crossing the line into lunacy in your quest to "win one for Orthodoxy."

In the process, you are making the Orthodox appear to be populated by lunatics.

Keep up the good work.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #939 on: October 14, 2010, 11:04:59 AM »
Nope. The Word of God Incarnate is Jesus Christ. Since the Church is Christ's Body, the Church has supreme authority. The Bible's authority—which is great, to be sure—is derived from the Church. Same with the Fathers' authority and Iconography's authority.

And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.
I think you're missing a fundamental difference, however. These passages speak of the "word of God", not the "Word of God". It is you who are capitalizing the W in "Word of God" to make of the Scriptures more than the Scriptures make of themselves. By capitalizing the W in "word of God", you make a personal pronoun out of "word of God" that implies an identity with the person of Jesus Christ that the Scriptures themselves don't support. Additionally, by using the definitive article "THE" together with the uppercase "W", you imply an exclusivity that cannot possibly be applied in a logical way to both the Scriptures AND to our Lord--only one can be the Word of God, and that is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Simply call the Scriptures the "word of God" and call Jesus alone the "Word of God", and you don't deviate from how the Scriptures view each.

Your ditty about he definite article makes no sense, here the Bible is called literally  τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ  (Mar 7:13 BYZ), "the word of the God"
Selective reading strikes again! LMAO! :laugh: You totally miss the fact that I mentioned your use of the definite article only in connection with your practice of capitalizing the W in Word of God when you apply the label to the Scriptures. If we can't trust you to read even our words correctly, how the **** can we trust you to read the Scriptures correctly?

Mark 7:13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
 (Mar 7:13 NKJ)
BTW, Alfred, this passage from the Gospel of Mark does not identify the word of God with the Bible.

Obviously Jesus is NOT saying they made Jesus of none effect.

So also these texts, even when "the" article τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ  appears, "THE word of God" applies to scripture:

NKJ  Luke 5:1 So it was, as the multitude pressed about Him to hear the word of God, that He stood by the Lake of Gennesaret, (Luk 5:1 NKJ)

NKJ  Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it." (Luk 8:21 NKJ)


NKJ  Luke 11:28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" (Luk 11:28 NKJ)

Your theory is incorrect.

The word of God applies to Jesus because He reveals God, just as Scripture is the "word of God" because it reveals God.

But this is not confusing the two, I do not make the Bible Jesus Christ.
So now you call both the Scriptures and Jesus Christ the word of God. Word of God... word of God... Does not that simple uppercase/lowercase difference make any difference to you? I guess not.

Its a wonder any of you state such absurdity in public...surely you realize such babble is  now immortalized on the NET...and you have all made yourself open to being cited as examples of the inanity coreligionists will resort to... lest at any time they address an issue that contradicts their man made traditions.
LMAO! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: That has to be about the funniest thing I've read on the Internet the past few days. You mind if I use this as material for my next humorous speech?

I capitalize the Word of God only in because I esteem it greater than the word of Man...period. You made an argument from this, to say Jesus is Scripture?

The Jews were not making Christ of non effect through their tradition, He was unknown to them until Christ's ministry. They are making the "Word of God" the Bible of none effect, that was Christ's point, He cites the scripture they made of non effect, and HE called this scripture "the word of God" (for your sake, I didn't capitalize it)

Mark 7:13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."

What "Moses said" = "word of God" in His argument against tradition that contradicts God's Word:

10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
 (Mar 7:10-13 KJV)

Therefore Exo 20:12 & Deu 5:16 = "the word of God", NOW contradict Jesus if you can:

 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. (Exo 20:12 KJV)

 16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. (Deu 5:16 KJV)

etc.

AND yes, you folks arguing against Scripture being the "word of God" makes you all seem like lunatics to every other Christian.

Keep it up, don't stop now.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #940 on: October 14, 2010, 11:18:35 AM »
I never called the Bible an icon, that is your straw man.

No, Orthodoxy says the Bible is an icon of Christ. That is why we sing "Come, let us worship and fall down before Christ" when the Gospel is raised up at the divine liturgy. (Not that you would know, since you have never been to one of our services.)

Scripture is the Word of God, God wrote it.

Are we talking about the Bible or the golden plates? ???

Scripture is not Jesus Christ.

Yet you elevate the Scripture (or your interpretation of it) above Jesus Christ in his Body, the Church.

You folks are crossing the line into lunacy in your quest to "win one for Orthodoxy."

That is for the Holy Spirit to do, not us.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 11:25:28 AM by bogdan »

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #941 on: October 14, 2010, 11:46:02 AM »

I capitalize the Word of God only in because I esteem it greater than the word of Man...period. You made an argument from this, to say Jesus is Scripture?
Isn't it interesting how it always boils down to what Alfred chooses it to mean? "because I esteem..."

Quote
AND yes, you folks arguing against Scripture being the "word of God" ....
Hooooooow sloooooooowly do I need to say this? The Orthodox don't argue that Scripture is the "word of God". We object to your apparently indiscriminate use of the "Word of God" to sometimes mean Holy Scripture and sometimes mean Jesus Christ. It appears to us that you have elevated the Scriptures to a divine level. We see the Holy Scriptures as an icon because they point to God, you appear to see the Holy Scriptures as an idol. (I know you will say you don't see the Scriptures as an idol - I'm merely pointing out that that, however, is the appearance from our perspective.)

Quote
...makes you all seem like lunatics to every other Christian. Keep it up, don't stop now.
Not a chance. It would be an honour of which I am not worthy to be named among the Fools-for-Christ. Yes, that's an actual term for many Orthodox saints. Read about them: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Fool-for-Christ

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #942 on: October 14, 2010, 12:03:51 PM »
Nope. The Word of God Incarnate is Jesus Christ. Since the Church is Christ's Body, the Church has supreme authority. The Bible's authority—which is great, to be sure—is derived from the Church. Same with the Fathers' authority and Iconography's authority.

And who told you the Bible is not the Word of God because Jesus is...Both are the Word of God, that is proved by the simple device of substituting "JESUS CHRIST" in the following texts where "word of God" appears...the texts become nonsense.
I think you're missing a fundamental difference, however. These passages speak of the "word of God", not the "Word of God". It is you who are capitalizing the W in "Word of God" to make of the Scriptures more than the Scriptures make of themselves. By capitalizing the W in "word of God", you make a personal pronoun out of "word of God" that implies an identity with the person of Jesus Christ that the Scriptures themselves don't support. Additionally, by using the definitive article "THE" together with the uppercase "W", you imply an exclusivity that cannot possibly be applied in a logical way to both the Scriptures AND to our Lord--only one can be the Word of God, and that is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Simply call the Scriptures the "word of God" and call Jesus alone the "Word of God", and you don't deviate from how the Scriptures view each.

Your ditty about he definite article makes no sense, here the Bible is called literally  τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ  (Mar 7:13 BYZ), "the word of the God"

Mark 7:13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
 (Mar 7:13 NKJ)


Obviously Jesus is NOT saying they made Jesus of none effect.

So also these texts, even when "the" article τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ  appears, "THE word of God" applies to scripture:

NKJ  Luke 5:1 So it was, as the multitude pressed about Him to hear the word of God, that He stood by the Lake of Gennesaret, (Luk 5:1 NKJ)

NKJ  Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it." (Luk 8:21 NKJ)


NKJ  Luke 11:28 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" (Luk 11:28 NKJ)

Your theory is incorrect.

The word of God applies to Jesus because He reveals God, just as Scripture is the "word of God" because it reveals God.

But this is not confusing the two, I do not make the Bible Jesus Christ.

Its a wonder any of you state such absurdity in public...surely you realize such babble is  now immortalized on the NET...and you have all made yourself open to being cited as examples of the inanity coreligionists will resort to... lest at any time they address an issue that contradicts their man made traditions.






It says "hear" the word and not read the word.  ;) There is a fundamental difference in the words. One is hear from a voice while the other is read.  Word doesn't do the word LOGOS justice as a translation. Logos actually means reasoning, word, testimony, reason and logic all at once. A complete understanding. One has to understand the context of a sentence to give it's interpretation correctly otherwise the words can actually lead you astray.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 12:34:30 PM by Demetrios G. »

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #943 on: October 14, 2010, 12:35:09 PM »
double post
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 12:38:16 PM by Demetrios G. »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #944 on: October 14, 2010, 01:47:29 PM »
double post

double down on lunacy is ok...its not you folks who are wrong, its the rest of the world.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)