Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 211711 times)

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #90 on: August 26, 2010, 06:18:40 AM »
I can agree with you the idea of Mary being mother of God is there in that text, yet disagree about the propriety of us proclaiming that...the apostles didn't, neither should we...its not part of the Gospel they preached.

Yikes, argumentum ex silentio.  You do understand that, at best, you're "guessing," right?  Unless you're postulating that 100% of everything that the Apostles ever said, from the time they met Jesus until the time they each died, is recorded and preserved somewhere where we can find it.  Abductive reasoning has its pitfalls; yes, we must use it sometimes, but in the field of Theology one must be careful when trying your hand at it, since it very frequently leads to heresy, as Arius, Nestorius, et al. can attest.

Incorrect, I argue for the gospel the apostles preached, ruling out what they didn't preach.

I never said the idea can't be discussed when appropriate, say in disputes about Christ's divinity. The text clearly implies the pre-existent Lord was in Mary's womb. It has its place in the body of texts that prove Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal Son of God.

But Catholicism made it a title, and Marian veneration is now greater than what Jesus receives. To suggest we need Mary's intercession to motivate God to help us, when He sent His only begotten Son to save us, is an insult and a lie, close to blaspheming God. Only those who don't know God can believe they need Mary's intercession to gain His attention and help. Christians are the apple of His eye, His help is always there for us, He is always focused on each one of us, we are His delight, His children. A loving parent doesn't need the intercession of inlaws before they care for their children.



Is it an insult or close to blaspheming God to ask a friend, pastor, or church(what we'd call a parish) to pray for you?  Is it taking the role of God to pray for someone else?  

No, that's an act of fellowship, of loving concern for one another, community in the presence of God, but lest you think God require that to hear the prayers of His children, it is written:

 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
 (Mat 7:7-11 KJV)

NKJ  John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. (Joh 15:16 NKJ)

NKJ  John 16:24 "Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full. (Joh 16:24 NKJ)


Your analogy is like biting into apples and claiming  it tastes the same as an orange, that is unsound.


It is evident from all the doctrine regarding Mary that she is no longer human, therefore prayer for her intercession is qualitatively different than asking for the intercession of a mere human.

That is perfectly clear from all the titles and offices heaped upon her, and her attributes. There seems to be nothing God does, that cannot be appropriated to Mary.

http://biblelight.net/omnip.htm

Asking her for anything is NOT like asking your friend or pastor, not even close.

And its fundamentally an insult one must "twist God's arm" by having Jesus' Mother intercede...to move a heartless or unconcerned God, to action. As though God didn't care, wasn't watching, or was distracted and needed Mary's intervention to get His attention.

The fundamental premises of Mary's intercession being desirable contradict scriptural teaching that God is Omniscient, Omnipresent, and near dwelling in believers.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 06:30:50 AM by Alfred Persson »
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #91 on: August 26, 2010, 08:19:29 AM »
LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them.  

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? :D

Nope---correctly interpret scripture and I will be pleased, I promise.

By the way, what are you looking at? The Garden I bet....

Who decided correct interpretation? You? No. The Church? Yes.

True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy, and which excels all the other gifts [of God]." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4,33:8 (inter A.D. 180-199).

"But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [that first bishop of theirs] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men - a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. In exactly the same way the other churches likewise exhibit (their several worthies), whom, as having been appointed to their episcopal places by apostles, they regard as transmitters of the apostolic seed. Let the heretics contrive something of the same kind�� Tertullian, On Prescription against the Heretics, 32 (c. A.D. 200).

�To this test, therefore will they be submitted for proof by those churches, who, although they derive not their founder from apostles or apostolic men (as being of much later date, for they are in fact being founded daily), yet, since they agree in the same faith, they are accounted as not less apostolic because they are akin in doctrine. Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith." Tertullian, On Prescription against the Heretics, 32 (c. A.D. 200).

"For those are slothful who, having it in their power to provide themselves with proper proofs for the divine Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, select only what contributes to their own pleasures. And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; opposing the divine tradition by human teachings, in order to establish the heresy." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 7:16 (post A.D. 202).

"When heretics show us the canonical Scriptures, in which every Christian believes and trusts, they seem to be saying: 'Lo, he is in the inner rooms [the word of truth] ' (Matt 24.6). But we must not believe them, nor leave the original tradition of the Church, nor believe otherwise than we have been taught by the succession in the Church of God." Origen, Homilies on Matthew, Homily 46, PG 13:1667 (ante A.D. 254).

"A most precious possession therefore is the knowledge of doctrines: also there is need of a wakeful soul, since there are many that make spoil through philosophy and vain deceit. The Greeks on the one hand draw men away by their smooth tongue, for honey droppeth from a harlot's lips: whereas they of the Circumcision deceive those who come to them by means of the Divine Scriptures, which they miserably misinterpret though studying them from childhood to all age, and growing old in ignorance. But the children of heretics, by their good words and smooth tongue, deceive the hearts of the innocent, disguising with the name of Christ as it were with honey the poisoned arrows of their impious doctrines: concerning all of whom together the Lord saith, Take heed lest any man mislead you. This is the reason for the teaching of the Creed and for expositions upon it." Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 4:2 (A.D. 350).

"And, O wretched heretic! You turn the weapons granted to the Church against the Synagogue, against belief in the Church's preaching, and distort against the common salvation of all the sure meaning of a saving doctrine." Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, 12:36 (inter A.D. 356-359).

"But since they allege the divine oracles and force on them a misinterpretation, according to their private sense, it becomes necessary to meet them just so far as to vindicate these passages, and to show that they bear an orthodox sense, and that our opponents are in error." Athanasius, Discourse Against the Arians, I:37 (A.D. 362).

"To refuse to follow the Fathers, not holding their declaration of more authority than one's own opinion, is conduct worthy of blame, as being brimful of self-sufficiency." Basil, EpistleTo the Canonicae, 52:1 (A.D. 370).

"While (the sects) mutually refute and condemn each other, it has happened to truth as to Gideon; that is, while they fight against each other, and fall under wounds mutually inflicted, they crown her. All the heretics acknowledge that there is a true Scripture. Had they all falsely believed that none existed, some one might reply that such Scripture was unknown to them. But now that have themselves taken away the force of such plea, from the fact that they have mutilated the very Scriptures. For they have corrupted the sacred copies; and words which ought to have but one interpretation, they have wrested to strange significations. Whilst, when one of them attempts this, and cuts off a member of his own body, the rest demand and claim back the severed limb...It is the church which perfect truth perfects. The church of believers is great, and its bosom most ample; it embraces the fulness (or, the whole) of the two Testaments." Ephraem, Adv. Haeres (ante A.D. 373).

"Who knows not that what separates the Church from heresy is this term, 'product of creation, ' applied to the Son? Accordingly, the doctrinal difference being universally acknowledged, what would be the reasonable course for a man to take who endeavors to show that his opinions are more true than ours?" Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius, 4:6 (inter A.D. 380-384).

"For heresies, and certain tenets of perversity, ensnaring souls and hurling them into the deep, have not sprung up except when good Scriptures are not rightly understood, and when that in them which is not rightly understood is rashly and boldly asserted. And so, dearly beloved, ought we very cautiously to hear those things for the understanding of which we are but little ones, and that, too, with pious heart and with trembling, as it is written, holding this rule of soundness, that we rejoice as in food in that which we have been able to understand, according to the faith with which we are imbued�" Augustine, On the Gospel of John, Homily XVIII:1 (A.D. 416).

"If you produce from the divine scriptures something that we all share, we shall have to listen. But those words which are not found in the scriptures are under no circumstance accepted by us, especially since the Lord warns us, saying, In vain they worship me, teaching human commandments and precepts' (Mt 5:19)" Maximinus (Arch-Arian Heretic), Debate with Maximinus, 1 (c. A.D. 428).

"Therefore, as I said above, if you had been a follower and assertor of Sabellianism or Arianism or any heresy you please, you might shelter yourself under the example of your parents, the teaching of your instructors, the company of those about you, the faith of your creed. I ask, O you heretic, nothing unfair, and nothing hard. As you have been brought up in the Catholic faith, do that which you would do for a wrong belief. Hold fast to the teaching of your parents. Hold fast the faith of the Church: hold fast the truth of the Creed: hold fast the salvation of baptism." John Cassian, Incarnation of the Lord, 6:5 (c. A.D. 429).

"I have often then inquired earnestly and attentively of very many men eminent for sanctity and learning, how and by what sure and so to speak universal rule I may be able to distinguish the truth of Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical depravity; and I have always, and in almost every instance, received an answer to this effect: That whether I or any one else should wish to detect the frauds and avoid the snares of heretics as they rise, and to continue sound and complete in the Catholic faith, we must, the Lord helping, fortify our own belief in two ways; first, by the authority of the Divine Law, and then, by the Tradition of the Catholic Church." Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory of the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 2:4 (A.D. 434).

"But the Church of Christ, the careful and watchful guardian of the doctrines deposited in her charge, never changes anything in them, never diminishes, never adds, does not cut off what is necessary, does not add what is superfluous, does not lose her own, does not appropriate what is another's, but while dealing faithfully and judiciously with ancient doctrine, keeps this one object carefully in view, if there be anything which antiquity has left shapeless and rudimentary, to fashion and polish it, if anything already reduced to shape and developed, to consolidate and strengthen it, if any already ratified and defined to keep and guard it. Finally, what other object have Councils ever aimed at in their decrees, than to provide that what was before believed in simplicity should in future be believed intelligently, that what was before preached coldly should in future be preached earnestly, that what was before practiced negligently should thenceforward be practiced with double solicitude? This, I say, is what the Catholic Church, roused by the novelties of heretics, has accomplished by the decrees of her Councils, this, and nothing else, has thenceforward consigned to posterity in writing what she had received from those of olden times only by tradition, comprising a great amount of matter in a few words, and often, for the better understanding, designating an old article of the faith by the characteristic of a new name." Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory of the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 23:59 (A.D. 434).

"[A]ll heresies, that they evermore delight in profane novelties, scorn the decisions of antiquity, and ...make shipwreck of the faith. On the other hand, it is the sure characteristic of Catholics to keep that which has been committed to their trust by the holy Fathers..." Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory of the Anitquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 24:63 (A.D. 434).

"His (Nestorius) first attempt at innovation was, that the holy Virgin, who bore the Word of God, who took flesh of her, ought not to be confessed to be the mother of God, but only the mother of Christ; though of old, yea from the first, the preachers of the orthodox faith taught, agreeably to the apostolic tradition, that the mother of God. And now let me produce his blasphemous artifice and observation unknown to any one before him." Theodoret of Cyrus, Compendium of Heretics' Fables, 12 (c.A.D. 453).
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #92 on: August 26, 2010, 12:35:28 PM »
I can agree with you the idea of Mary being mother of God is there in that text, yet disagree about the propriety of us proclaiming that...the apostles didn't, neither should we...its not part of the Gospel they preached.
Yikes, argumentum ex silentio.  You do understand that, at best, you're "guessing," right?  Unless you're postulating that 100% of everything that the Apostles ever said, from the time they met Jesus until the time they each died, is recorded and preserved somewhere where we can find it.  Abductive reasoning has its pitfalls; yes, we must use it sometimes, but in the field of Theology one must be careful when trying your hand at it, since it very frequently leads to heresy, as Arius, Nestorius, et al. can attest.
Incorrect, I argue for the gospel the apostles preached, ruling out what they didn't preach.

Again, argumentum ex silentio.  You're guessing that the Apostles didn't preach it because you haven't found it in the extant texts; but that assumes that (a) 100% of what the Apostles taught made it into the texts, (b) 100% of the texts have made it to the present day, and (c) you have read 100% of the texts.  That's a lot of guesswork, my friend, and your inability to see that makes this discussion nearly impossible.

But Catholicism made it a title, and Marian veneration is now greater than what Jesus receives.

You seem to forget that we're not Western Roman Catholics here.  I suppose it's an easy mistake for someone who doesn't research their friends/opponents/etc. well.

To suggest we need Mary's intercession to motivate God to help us, when He sent His only begotten Son to save us, is an insult and a lie, close to blaspheming God. Only those who don't know God can believe they need Mary's intercession to gain His attention and help. Christians are the apple of His eye, His help is always there for us, He is always focused on each one of us, we are His delight, His children. A loving parent doesn't need the intercession of inlaws before they care for their children.

My, my, ignoring the multiple scriptural cases of intercession, aren't we?  You've built, dressed, and burned two strawmen in this paragraph, while ignoring fundamental premises of intercession that are present in the scripture.  *Yawn.*
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #93 on: August 26, 2010, 12:48:56 PM »
Hey Alfred, remember the story of the Wedding at Cana, described in the 2nd chapter of the Gospel of John?

Remember when Mary interceded with Jesus on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, embarrassed because they'd run out of wine?

Jesus tells her, basically, that it's none of her business or His, and that His time has not yet come.

Now you or I might hear Him say that and say, "Oh, well, OK, then, Lord, I accept that and won't ask you any more.

Yet Mary just outright ignores him, tells the waiters to do whatever Jesus tells them to do -

AND HE DOES IT!!    :o

In other words, Mary "interceded" on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, and persuaded Jesus to change His mind and help them!!  8)

From Day One, particularly after reading this story, Christians have known that Mary is the one you want on your side when you're asking Her Son for help.

And there's your Scriptural precedent for the value of her intercession, right there.

After all, Jesus COULD have said, "Sorry, Mom, I know you're only trying to help, but the bridegroom needs to come and ask me DIRECTLY - I don't take indirect requests!"

Tell us - why DIDN'T He say something like that?  Surely He (being God) must have known that His followers would read about this incident and conclude it was OK to ask His mom for help.  If He didn't want that, why didn't He tell anyone?  ???
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 12:54:19 PM by theistgal »
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #94 on: August 26, 2010, 02:52:48 PM »
Quote
that's an act of fellowship, of loving concern for one another, community in the presence of God,

And our asking intercessions from the Blessed Theotokos as well as the saints is an act of fellowship and a sign that community in the presence of God does not end just because the earthly life has ended.  In fact, we ask the intercessions of saints and the Theotokos because they are literally the "community in the presence of God".


Quote
Your analogy is like biting into apples and claiming  it tastes the same as an orange, that is unsound.

No, my analogy is like biting into a Red Delicious and saying that it tastes very similar to the Gold Delicious.  Prayer is prayer, the only difference between our prayers and the prayers of the saints is that the earthly veil has been removed from the latter, they ring the throne of God.

Quote
It is evident from all the doctrine regarding Mary that she is no longer human, therefore prayer for her intercession is qualitatively different than asking for the intercession of a mere human.

Lord, save me from being a "mere" human!  But if you're saying that our doctrine regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary means that in any way, shape, or form we denigrate her humanity then you know absolutely nothing of our prayers for intercession.  However, to say that the Mother of our Lord was a "mere" human is to denigrate absolutely everything Christianity means, that we are united to the Body of Christ through the Church.  You who claim to admire St Athanasius ponder this statement: "The Divine became man so that Man may become divine".

Quote
Asking her for anything is NOT like asking your friend or pastor, not even close.

Only insofar as none of my friends nor my priest could claim the greatest miracle of the Incarnation happened within them, that the Infinite Word, God who cannot be contained, was for nine months contained. 

Quote
And its fundamentally an insult one must "twist God's arm" by having Jesus' Mother intercede...to move a heartless or unconcerned God, to action. As though God didn't care, wasn't watching, or was distracted and needed Mary's intervention to get His attention.

Again, the above statement shows you know nothing of our intercessory prayers.  We don't ask the Theotokos for intercession because God is heartless or unconcerned.  We ask for intercession from the Mother of the Man-befriending God, the Mother of Deliverance, to the Mother of the Son Who has willed to grant mercy to us.

In other words, we ask intercessions of the Blessed Virgin precisely because God loves us and is concerned for us. 

Again, it doesn't stop at the Theotokos, we ask intercession from all our saints, because they were faithful to the end, while we are still running the race.
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #95 on: August 26, 2010, 11:23:10 PM »
It is evident from all the doctrine regarding Mary that she is no longer human, therefore prayer for her intercession is qualitatively different than asking for the intercession of a mere human.
She is most certainly a human.

She is a human who has come into the fullness of what it means to be a human being, that is theosis. In theosis, a person becomes a partaker in the divine nature. That means that we can wield seemingly supernatural powers insofar as they match up with God's will. That is why the Apostles could do miracles, healing people even via their shadows and handkerchiefs. The power to do these things comes from God by virtue of their level of unity to the will of God. When they are of one will with God, humans gain the ability to enact the will of God directly. This is what God always wanted for humans.

The only reason the Blessed Theotokos seems superhuman is because she has risen above the subhuman level the rest of us are at. It is not she who somehow is better than the rest of us, a demigod, but rather we prefer to wallow in our mudholes like so many swine. If we claimed our humanity in Christ, we would also be like the Theotokos and the Saints.

That is perfectly clear from all the titles and offices heaped upon her, and her attributes. There seems to be nothing God does, that cannot be appropriated to Mary.

That is because she participates in the Divine Energies of God. That is what Theosis—Salvation—means. Christ himself said those who came afterwards would do even greater things than he did. Does that mean the divine grace comes from the Saints themselves? Of course not.

All divine grace comes from God. But God consistently chooses to mediate his grace through human beings, rituals, angels, and other material and immaterial things. You rarely read in the Bible of things just magically happening. No.

Before you start on "only one mediator", let me be clear: there is certainly only one mediator between God the Father and Mankind. That is Jesus Christ. But there are many mediators between Jesus Christ and mankind. Sometimes we mediate for ourselves, but often we mediate for each other. Most of us can only mediate through prayer, but some of us are so united with Christ that they are able to mediate his grace directly. But it's still ultimately coming and going through Christ.

And its fundamentally an insult one must "twist God's arm" by having Jesus' Mother intercede...to move a heartless or unconcerned God, to action. As though God didn't care, wasn't watching, or was distracted and needed Mary's intervention to get His attention.

The fundamental premises of Mary's intercession being desirable contradict scriptural teaching that God is Omniscient, Omnipresent, and near dwelling in believers.

As I said above, God uses intermediaries for his grace: people, rituals, objects, and immaterial persons. Examples: the prophets, sacrifices, baptism, the apostles, circumcision, the golden serpent, the cross, Peter's shadow, Paul's handkerchiefs, etc etc etc. God doesn't zap magical power down on people when they pray. Rather he mediates his grace through material means.

And intercession is not celestial arm-twisting. Rather it is an act of mutual love between the Son and his Mother, and her participation in the grace of the Trinity. Her will is perfectly united to his. For a picture of how this works, look at 1 Kings 2:17-20. Such a relationship between the King and the Queen-Mother was well known in Israel's history. It certainly isn't the odd image you present.



Alfred, you really need to become thoroughly familiar with the things you're attempting to debate before doing so. You have demonstrated that you don't know what we believe about intercession, theosis (and salvation in general), divine energies and grace, and most of all the place of the Theotokos and the saints. You throw out assumptions based on Roman Catholicism and you argue against bizarre misinterpretations of what we believe.

It's fine if you want to debate with us, but it's hard to respect a debate opponent who doesn't do his homework first.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 11:33:28 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #96 on: August 27, 2010, 01:21:58 AM »
Regeneration
NKJ  Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration(παλιγγενεσίας) and renewing of the Holy Spirit, (Tit 3:5 NKJ)

NKJ  Matthew 19:28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration (παλιγγενεσίᾳ), when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat 19:28 NKJ)

Compare:

CJB  Matthew 19:28 Yeshua said to them, "Yes. I tell you that in the regenerated world, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Isra'el. (Mat 19:28 CJB)



So how is the world "regenerated"? When the Kingdom of God, the Complete revelation come, then the realm of partial revelation will cease to exist:

10 But when that which is perfect(τέλειον) has come, then that which is in part(μέρους) will be done away.
 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. (1Co 13:108-12 NKJ)


It is the addition of divine nature, God's Holy Spirit imparting full revelation of God that our "Partial" lacks, once it is added, the Complete is here, and the partial ceases to exist. Then we know even as we are known.


Therefore water has nothing to do with regeneration, both "The washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" a work of God's Holy Spirit.

 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
 (Tit 3:5-6 NKJ)


 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4 NKJ)

 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
 (Col 2:12-13 KJV)

 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:13 KJV)


« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 01:40:25 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #97 on: August 27, 2010, 02:02:03 AM »
I can agree with you the idea of Mary being mother of God is there in that text, yet disagree about the propriety of us proclaiming that...the apostles didn't, neither should we...its not part of the Gospel they preached.
Yikes, argumentum ex silentio.  You do understand that, at best, you're "guessing," right?  Unless you're postulating that 100% of everything that the Apostles ever said, from the time they met Jesus until the time they each died, is recorded and preserved somewhere where we can find it.  Abductive reasoning has its pitfalls; yes, we must use it sometimes, but in the field of Theology one must be careful when trying your hand at it, since it very frequently leads to heresy, as Arius, Nestorius, et al. can attest.
Incorrect, I argue for the gospel the apostles preached, ruling out what they didn't preach.

Again, argumentum ex silentio.  You're guessing that the Apostles didn't preach it because you haven't found it in the extant texts; but that assumes that (a) 100% of what the Apostles taught made it into the texts, (b) 100% of the texts have made it to the present day, and (c) you have read 100% of the texts.  That's a lot of guesswork, my friend, and your inability to see that makes this discussion nearly impossible.

But Catholicism made it a title, and Marian veneration is now greater than what Jesus receives.

You seem to forget that we're not Western Roman Catholics here.  I suppose it's an easy mistake for someone who doesn't research their friends/opponents/etc. well.

To suggest we need Mary's intercession to motivate God to help us, when He sent His only begotten Son to save us, is an insult and a lie, close to blaspheming God. Only those who don't know God can believe they need Mary's intercession to gain His attention and help. Christians are the apple of His eye, His help is always there for us, He is always focused on each one of us, we are His delight, His children. A loving parent doesn't need the intercession of inlaws before they care for their children.

My, my, ignoring the multiple scriptural cases of intercession, aren't we?  You've built, dressed, and burned two strawmen in this paragraph, while ignoring fundamental premises of intercession that are present in the scripture.  *Yawn.*

You would be right if I were implying all the Twelve preached is in the NT, but I am not.

I say all apostolic doctrine required to be "complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work," which includes the work of teaching others true doctrine, is found in scripture...so it is written:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)


So it is not an argument from silence as all that makes the man of God complete, is in scripture. Therefore, if it isn't in scripture, its not equipment I need to be complete.

Its is wrtten:

 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)


This means all that is necessary to be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work in Christ, which includes teachings others The Way perfectly, was delivered to the church in the days of Jude. As Paul says Scripture contains it all....

All motive for speculation what they might have said, that isn't in the Bible, is removed as  whatever it might be, is not necessary for our being "equipped" for the good work of teaching others the Way of Salvation.

AND your speculation, being it can't be document in scripture, runs the risk of "adding to God's Word, what He has not spoken."

I tremble at the thought of being guilty of that, don't you?



As for asking Mary compel God give us what we ask, you ignored Jesus' teaching we ask in His name, and receive everything we ask for...you aren't suggesting Christ was wrong, are you?

23 ... Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.
 24 "Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive,
that your joy may be full.
 (Joh 16:23-24 NKJ)

Everything I ask God for, in Jesus' name, I get, don't you?

Of course this excludes what isn't consistent with His will, but I never ask for what would be against His will.




« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 02:08:50 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #98 on: August 27, 2010, 02:29:57 AM »
Hey Alfred, remember the story of the Wedding at Cana, described in the 2nd chapter of the Gospel of John?

Remember when Mary interceded with Jesus on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, embarrassed because they'd run out of wine?

Jesus tells her, basically, that it's none of her business or His, and that His time has not yet come.

Now you or I might hear Him say that and say, "Oh, well, OK, then, Lord, I accept that and won't ask you any more.

Yet Mary just outright ignores him, tells the waiters to do whatever Jesus tells them to do -

AND HE DOES IT!!    :o

In other words, Mary "interceded" on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, and persuaded Jesus to change His mind and help them!!  8)

From Day One, particularly after reading this story, Christians have known that Mary is the one you want on your side when you're asking Her Son for help.

And there's your Scriptural precedent for the value of her intercession, right there.

After all, Jesus COULD have said, "Sorry, Mom, I know you're only trying to help, but the bridegroom needs to come and ask me DIRECTLY - I don't take indirect requests!"

Tell us - why DIDN'T He say something like that?  Surely He (being God) must have known that His followers would read about this incident and conclude it was OK to ask His mom for help.  If He didn't want that, why didn't He tell anyone?  ???

Excellent argument, true enough, Mary got Jesus to do what He seemed reluctant to do at that time.

I won't quibble about the exegesis, you made your point well. (But it may be Jesus is only objecting to Mary's assuming He didn't notice...because this miracle is listed as the beginning of His signs...so perhaps His time had come, just not precisely when Mary asked.)

So Congratulations, you had me thinking....you proved that Mary's intercession during Christ's earthly ministry, could move Him to act.

BUT that doesn't prove this allows you to make requests to Mary and she then gets Jesus to do them:

While I think it very likely Jesus would respond to a request by His mother in heaven, I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.


In other words, the idea we can speak to the departed, including Mary, isn't taught in the New Testament.



« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 02:38:59 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #99 on: August 27, 2010, 02:45:22 AM »
Quote
that's an act of fellowship, of loving concern for one another, community in the presence of God,

And our asking intercessions from the Blessed Theotokos as well as the saints is an act of fellowship and a sign that community in the presence of God does not end just because the earthly life has ended.  In fact, we ask the intercessions of saints and the Theotokos because they are literally the "community in the presence of God".


Quote
Your analogy is like biting into apples and claiming  it tastes the same as an orange, that is unsound.

No, my analogy is like biting into a Red Delicious and saying that it tastes very similar to the Gold Delicious.  Prayer is prayer, the only difference between our prayers and the prayers of the saints is that the earthly veil has been removed from the latter, they ring the throne of God.

Quote
It is evident from all the doctrine regarding Mary that she is no longer human, therefore prayer for her intercession is qualitatively different than asking for the intercession of a mere human.

Lord, save me from being a "mere" human!  But if you're saying that our doctrine regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary means that in any way, shape, or form we denigrate her humanity then you know absolutely nothing of our prayers for intercession.  However, to say that the Mother of our Lord was a "mere" human is to denigrate absolutely everything Christianity means, that we are united to the Body of Christ through the Church.  You who claim to admire St Athanasius ponder this statement: "The Divine became man so that Man may become divine".

Quote
Asking her for anything is NOT like asking your friend or pastor, not even close.

Only insofar as none of my friends nor my priest could claim the greatest miracle of the Incarnation happened within them, that the Infinite Word, God who cannot be contained, was for nine months contained. 

Quote
And its fundamentally an insult one must "twist God's arm" by having Jesus' Mother intercede...to move a heartless or unconcerned God, to action. As though God didn't care, wasn't watching, or was distracted and needed Mary's intervention to get His attention.

Again, the above statement shows you know nothing of our intercessory prayers.  We don't ask the Theotokos for intercession because God is heartless or unconcerned.  We ask for intercession from the Mother of the Man-befriending God, the Mother of Deliverance, to the Mother of the Son Who has willed to grant mercy to us.

In other words, we ask intercessions of the Blessed Virgin precisely because God loves us and is concerned for us. 

Again, it doesn't stop at the Theotokos, we ask intercession from all our saints, because they were faithful to the end, while we are still running the race.

As I noted to Theistgal, the idea we can speak to the departed, including Mary, isn't taught in the New Testament

Unless you can prove we can, the question is moot.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #100 on: August 27, 2010, 03:04:54 AM »
I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.
[/color]

Heb 12:1-2
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The "witnesses" talked about in Hebrews 12 are the OT saints mentioned in chapter 11. Those in heaven are somehow aware of what happens doen here. And Revelation gives us an image those in heaven engaged in worship offering the prayers of the faithful to God. And as Hebrews says to look to Christ as the "author and finisher of our faith", it must be remembered that it is by His power and by following Him that all things are accomplished, just like it was ultimately Him who changed the water into wine after the intercession of His mother and the obedience of the servants.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #101 on: August 27, 2010, 09:52:45 AM »

As I noted to Theistgal, the idea we can speak to the departed, including Mary, isn't taught in the New Testament

Unless you can prove we can, the question is moot.


Melodist, in the post above, replies to this more than sufficiently.
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2010, 10:42:45 AM »
Excellent argument, true enough, Mary got Jesus to do what He seemed reluctant to do at that time.

I won't quibble about the exegesis, you made your point well. (But it may be Jesus is only objecting to Mary's assuming He didn't notice...because this miracle is listed as the beginning of His signs...so perhaps His time had come, just not precisely when Mary asked.)

So Congratulations, you had me thinking....you proved that Mary's intercession during Christ's earthly ministry, could move Him to act.

BUT that doesn't prove this allows you to make requests to Mary and she then gets Jesus to do them:

While I think it very likely Jesus would respond to a request by His mother in heaven, I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.


In other words, the idea we can speak to the departed, including Mary, isn't taught in the New Testament.


Well, I got you to think about it!  My work here is done!   ;D

Seriously, just a couple of more points to ponder:

1.  Remember where St. Paul said (Hebrews 12:1) that we're surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, cheering us on as we run the race?  Don't you think those witnesses can hear us when we stop and shout back to them?  Perhaps Mary is just the cheerleader closest to the sidelines! ;D

2.  Even if Mary can't hear our prayers, God can hear them, right?  Perhaps if they're being made from someone with a truly sincere wish to love and honor Him, He will answer the prayers directed to her.  Are you a C.S. Lewis fan?  And if so, have you ever read "The Last Battle"?  (I won't continue this point till I get your response.)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 10:47:12 AM by theistgal »
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #103 on: August 27, 2010, 11:01:15 AM »
Hey Alfred, remember the story of the Wedding at Cana, described in the 2nd chapter of the Gospel of John?

Remember when Mary interceded with Jesus on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, embarrassed because they'd run out of wine?

Jesus tells her, basically, that it's none of her business or His, and that His time has not yet come.

Now you or I might hear Him say that and say, "Oh, well, OK, then, Lord, I accept that and won't ask you any more.

Yet Mary just outright ignores him, tells the waiters to do whatever Jesus tells them to do -

AND HE DOES IT!!    :o

In other words, Mary "interceded" on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, and persuaded Jesus to change His mind and help them!!  8)

From Day One, particularly after reading this story, Christians have known that Mary is the one you want on your side when you're asking Her Son for help.

And there's your Scriptural precedent for the value of her intercession, right there.

After all, Jesus COULD have said, "Sorry, Mom, I know you're only trying to help, but the bridegroom needs to come and ask me DIRECTLY - I don't take indirect requests!"

Tell us - why DIDN'T He say something like that?  Surely He (being God) must have known that His followers would read about this incident and conclude it was OK to ask His mom for help.  If He didn't want that, why didn't He tell anyone?  ???

Excellent argument, true enough, Mary got Jesus to do what He seemed reluctant to do at that time.

I won't quibble about the exegesis, you made your point well. (But it may be Jesus is only objecting to Mary's assuming He didn't notice...because this miracle is listed as the beginning of His signs...so perhaps His time had come, just not precisely when Mary asked.)

So Congratulations, you had me thinking....you proved that Mary's intercession during Christ's earthly ministry, could move Him to act.

BUT that doesn't prove this allows you to make requests to Mary and she then gets Jesus to do them:

While I think it very likely Jesus would respond to a request by His mother in heaven, I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.


In other words, the idea we can speak to the departed, including Mary, isn't taught in the New Testament.


Not as such, but it is a well-established reality that the people in heaven are aware of what occurs on earth. Not the least of which "We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses". What does a witness do? A witness sees and hears things. If the Theotokos is one of the witnesses, it stands to reason that she most certainly can hear us talking to her. The angels can hear our prayers, as the Bible has them carrying prayers around and looking after people. If the departed are in the same realm as the angels, then there is no logical reason to say they cannot hear us.

And once again, it gets back to theosis. The saints partake of God's divine energies. One of those energies is God's ability to hear prayers all around the world at the same time. The saints, by virtue of their sanctity, also have that ability to an extent, depending on how sanctified they are. (Though I think patristic sources I have read make it fairly clear that the saints are not omnipresent; they can only be in one point in space at a time, whatever "space" means to a departed soul.)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 11:03:28 AM by bogdan »

Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #104 on: August 27, 2010, 01:42:26 PM »
Re intercession between us & the hereafter: Ruth 2:20, "....blessed be he of the LORD,who hath not left off his kindness to the living and to the dead..." So it should be permissable for intercessory prayer between both states. " Oh Lord Almighty, thou God of Israel, hear now the prayers of the dead Israelites, & of their children..." (Baruch 3:4 not in Alf's Bible of course). Psalm 99:6, "Moses & Aaron among his priests, and Samuel among them that call upon His name.." (they were all departed when David wrote this but they are not praying?). "God is not the God of the dead , but of the living." (the Lord Jesus Christ per Matthew 22:32). So, the departed are not living (like the 7th day adventists beleive?) & no intercessory prayer between us & the Theotokos & all the saints? REally???
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #105 on: August 27, 2010, 06:13:51 PM »
I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.
[/color]

Heb 12:1-2
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The "witnesses" talked about in Hebrews 12 are the OT saints mentioned in chapter 11. Those in heaven are somehow aware of what happens doen here. And Revelation gives us an image those in heaven engaged in worship offering the prayers of the faithful to God. And as Hebrews says to look to Christ as the "author and finisher of our faith", it must be remembered that it is by His power and by following Him that all things are accomplished, just like it was ultimately Him who changed the water into wine after the intercession of His mother and the obedience of the servants.


The metaphor of a cloud of witnesses doesn't prove your point because MARTUS is being used in its usual connotation of witness, as one who testifies in a court of law. These witness to the correct way to live:

Hebrews 12:1 clearly belongs to the chapter before, which details what these witnesses did in this life:

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 (Heb 11:39-2 NKJ)

While this cloud of witnesses are pictured as surrounding us as in a stadium, the point isn't about them watching us, but us seeing them, a crowd of witnesses testifying how to be faithful to God, who should inspire us to "lay aside every weight and sin."

Hence this is not saying they actually witness what we are doing, their witness is like testimony  in court detailing how to lay aside every weight and sin and focus on God, the author and finisher of our faith, and as they surround us, we see them as if we are in a stadium competition.


Rev 8:5 doesn't picture individuals talking to Mary or the saints.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 06:19:07 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #106 on: August 27, 2010, 06:41:12 PM »
Excellent argument, true enough, Mary got Jesus to do what He seemed reluctant to do at that time.

I won't quibble about the exegesis, you made your point well. (But it may be Jesus is only objecting to Mary's assuming He didn't notice...because this miracle is listed as the beginning of His signs...so perhaps His time had come, just not precisely when Mary asked.)

So Congratulations, you had me thinking....you proved that Mary's intercession during Christ's earthly ministry, could move Him to act.

BUT that doesn't prove this allows you to make requests to Mary and she then gets Jesus to do them:

While I think it very likely Jesus would respond to a request by His mother in heaven, I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.


In other words, the idea we can speak to the departed, including Mary, isn't taught in the New Testament.


Well, I got you to think about it!  My work here is done!   ;D

Seriously, just a couple of more points to ponder:

1.  Remember where St. Paul said (Hebrews 12:1) that we're surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, cheering us on as we run the race?  Don't you think those witnesses can hear us when we stop and shout back to them?  Perhaps Mary is just the cheerleader closest to the sidelines! ;D

2.  Even if Mary can't hear our prayers, God can hear them, right?  Perhaps if they're being made from someone with a truly sincere wish to love and honor Him, He will answer the prayers directed to her.  Are you a C.S. Lewis fan?  And if so, have you ever read "The Last Battle"?  (I won't continue this point till I get your response.)


Thanks. I never looked at that text from that perspective, I enjoy seeing things from different angles.

I concede Mary was able to get Christ to act...how reluctant He actually was uncertain, Mary didn't hesitate to conclude He would act.


Don't know anything about CS Lewis except I like this quote of his:


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.- C. S. Lewis, God in the Dock

Gratuitous political commentary removed from post.




As for Hebrews, that doesn't prove communication with the departed because the point made about their surrounding us is they inspire us to lay aside things that hinder our serving Christ. In other words, we see them, not they see us.


So MARTUS is being used in its usual connotation of witness, as one who testifies in a court of law. These witness to the correct way to live.



39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith
, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 (Heb 11:39-2 NKJ)

AND then, as a last witness, is Jesus Himself whose impeccable service to God is also meant to inspire us.

I suspect you are aware of this interpretation, because you list another argument:

2.  Even if Mary can't hear our prayers, God can hear them, right?  Perhaps if they're being made from someone with a truly sincere wish to love and honor Him, He will answer the prayers directed to her.

Can't base doctrine on a "perhaps." You have to show actual prayers being made to departed saints in scripture, or apostolic teaching they can hear our prayers.

Look what Paul says here to Timothy:

15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:15-18 NKJ)

19 Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. (2Ti 4:19 NKJ)

So its likely this Onespihorus was departed, Paul expressed hope his household be shown mercy because of what he did. So perhaps some of them were unbelievers, regardless...the point is, Paul didn't include him in the conversation.

If Saint Onesiphorus could hear prayer, it would be rude to talk about him and his household as though he could not hear.
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« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 07:38:36 PM by PeterTheAleut »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #107 on: August 27, 2010, 07:19:02 PM »
Hey Alfred, remember the story of the Wedding at Cana, described in the 2nd chapter of the Gospel of John?

Remember when Mary interceded with Jesus on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, embarrassed because they'd run out of wine?

Jesus tells her, basically, that it's none of her business or His, and that His time has not yet come.

Now you or I might hear Him say that and say, "Oh, well, OK, then, Lord, I accept that and won't ask you any more.

Yet Mary just outright ignores him, tells the waiters to do whatever Jesus tells them to do -

AND HE DOES IT!!    :o

In other words, Mary "interceded" on behalf of the bride and bridegroom, and persuaded Jesus to change His mind and help them!!  8)

From Day One, particularly after reading this story, Christians have known that Mary is the one you want on your side when you're asking Her Son for help.

And there's your Scriptural precedent for the value of her intercession, right there.

After all, Jesus COULD have said, "Sorry, Mom, I know you're only trying to help, but the bridegroom needs to come and ask me DIRECTLY - I don't take indirect requests!"

Tell us - why DIDN'T He say something like that?  Surely He (being God) must have known that His followers would read about this incident and conclude it was OK to ask His mom for help.  If He didn't want that, why didn't He tell anyone?  ???

Excellent argument, true enough, Mary got Jesus to do what He seemed reluctant to do at that time.

I won't quibble about the exegesis, you made your point well. (But it may be Jesus is only objecting to Mary's assuming He didn't notice...because this miracle is listed as the beginning of His signs...so perhaps His time had come, just not precisely when Mary asked.)

So Congratulations, you had me thinking....you proved that Mary's intercession during Christ's earthly ministry, could move Him to act.

BUT that doesn't prove this allows you to make requests to Mary and she then gets Jesus to do them:

While I think it very likely Jesus would respond to a request by His mother in heaven, I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.


In other words, the idea we can speak to the departed, including Mary, isn't taught in the New Testament.


Not as such, but it is a well-established reality that the people in heaven are aware of what occurs on earth. Not the least of which "We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses". What does a witness do? A witness sees and hears things. If the Theotokos is one of the witnesses, it stands to reason that she most certainly can hear us talking to her. The angels can hear our prayers, as the Bible has them carrying prayers around and looking after people. If the departed are in the same realm as the angels, then there is no logical reason to say they cannot hear us.

And once again, it gets back to theosis. The saints partake of God's divine energies. One of those energies is God's ability to hear prayers all around the world at the same time. The saints, by virtue of their sanctity, also have that ability to an extent, depending on how sanctified they are. (Though I think patristic sources I have read make it fairly clear that the saints are not omnipresent; they can only be in one point in space at a time, whatever "space" means to a departed soul.)

Hebrew 12:1 is following the usual sense of MARTUS, those surrounding us are examples of faithful living, they witness as in a courtroom by their acts of faithfulness, and seeing them inspires us.

See my two posts immediately above this one for the details.

As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Therefore I don't believe THEOSIS allows the departed in heaven, hear us. They are departed, they have "left the building," and no longer hear us:



KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  


Saints Abraham and Israel are ignorant of individuals on earth, so God's people pray to God, not them. Unlike them, He hears us.  


« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 07:29:21 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #108 on: August 27, 2010, 07:41:44 PM »
Alfred, please see Reply #106 above.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #109 on: August 27, 2010, 09:15:25 PM »
Alfred, please see Reply #106 above.

Didn't notice the replies are numbered, thanks.

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« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 09:17:08 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #110 on: August 27, 2010, 09:58:52 PM »
I don't believe Mary can hear your requests.
[/color]

Heb 12:1-2
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The "witnesses" talked about in Hebrews 12 are the OT saints mentioned in chapter 11. Those in heaven are somehow aware of what happens doen here. And Revelation gives us an image those in heaven engaged in worship offering the prayers of the faithful to God. And as Hebrews says to look to Christ as the "author and finisher of our faith", it must be remembered that it is by His power and by following Him that all things are accomplished, just like it was ultimately Him who changed the water into wine after the intercession of His mother and the obedience of the servants.


The metaphor of a cloud of witnesses doesn't prove your point because MARTUS is being used in its usual connotation of witness, as one who testifies in a court of law. These witness to the correct way to live:

Hebrews 12:1 clearly belongs to the chapter before, which details what these witnesses did in this life:

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 (Heb 11:39-2 NKJ)

While this cloud of witnesses are pictured as surrounding us as in a stadium, the point isn't about them watching us, but us seeing them, a crowd of witnesses testifying how to be faithful to God, who should inspire us to "lay aside every weight and sin."

Hence this is not saying they actually witness what we are doing, their witness is like testimony  in court detailing how to lay aside every weight and sin and focus on God, the author and finisher of our faith, and as they surround us, we see them as if we are in a stadium competition.


Rev 8:5 doesn't picture individuals talking to Mary or the saints.



Re: Revelations 8:5-  What it does picture is the elders (the Patriarchs and Apostles) bearing prayers (not their own) to God. 


Therefore I don't believe THEOSIS allows the departed in heaven, hear us. They are departed, they have "left the building," and no longer hear us:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  

Saints Abraham and Israel are ignorant of individuals on earth, so God's people pray to God, not them. Unlike them, He hears us.  




Hmmmmm, leaving aside the fact the statement in Isaiah never says that Abraham IS ignorant nor that Israel acknowledges not (it's like saying "Though my father love me not, God is there", my father loves me, but even if he didn't God does), there was a major change in the lands of the dead (Hebrew Sheol, Greek Hades) between the time of Isaiah and the time of the Church.  One might call it an upheaval.  Can you guess what it was?
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #111 on: August 27, 2010, 10:02:13 PM »
Hebrew 12:1 is following the usual sense of MARTUS, those surrounding us are examples of faithful living, they witness as in a courtroom by their acts of faithfulness, and seeing them inspires us.

By your interpretation it follows the usual sense, as you describe. But you are presupposing that it means that. There is absolutely no indication in the text that it must be taken as such.

(Aside: I personally have never heard of such an interpretation of that verse, neither when I was Protestant nor since becoming Orthodox. I thought it was standard belief among Protestants that the heavenlies are aware of us, except that there is perhaps a one-way mirror between us and them. Huh.)


As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Have you read the New Testament? The Apostles healed people and even raised the dead. People didn't have to pray to them; they were there in the flesh.

(Technically, the people asking the then-living Apostles to help them was an act of prayer. A prayer is simply a request, as in the phrase, "I pray you tell." Also, notice that when asked, the Apostles simply healed people. They didn't say, "No! Don't ask me, idolator! Go pray to God and he'll heal your child.")

But you betray your bias. You assume that every important (or not so important) event that ever happened in the lives of the Apostles is recorded in the New Testament; or at least, you believe that if something was important, it would be recorded. You cannot argue from silence. Such is a fallacy of logic.

As we know, written documents were held with suspicion in antiquity. It's not hard to write a false account and hand out 100 copies of it. Look at all the false epistles and gospels the Gnostics used. What *is* hard is to simultaneously get the entire Church to believe a false teaching. That is why the Apostles held Holy Tradition in such high regard. It's far more reliable than scribbles on paper.

Back to the issue at hand, I absolutely believe there are such people alive today. They don't often appear in the West because of our insatiable doubt (cf Matt. 13:58), but there are definitely people alive today who partake of the divine nature just like the Apostles did.

You probably won't believe this in your own enlightened doubt, but there are modern examples of living saints who healed people without being told the people needed help, and/or over great distances, because they were clairvoyant. St John of San Francisco did this on a number of occasions, among a host of similar miracles, medically verifiable and all. I can actually also think of a couple accounts of "prayers" he received via letter and telephone, and the requests were met instantly.

Therefore I don't believe THEOSIS allows the departed in heaven, hear us. They are departed, they have "left the building," and no longer hear us:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting. 

Saints Abraham and Israel are ignorant of individuals on earth, so God's people pray to God, not them. Unlike them, He hears us.

The pre-Resurrection Jewish understanding of death is vastly different from the Christian one. After the Resurrection, as the Theotokion at the end of Sunday Matins says,

Most blessed art thou, O Virgin Theotokos, for through Him that was incarnate of thee is Hades despoiled, Adam is recalled from the dead, the curse is made void, Eve is set free, Death is slain, and we are endowed with Life. Wherefore, in hymns of praise, we cry aloud: Blessed art Thou, O Christ our God, Who is thus well pleased, glory to Thee.

Those who were dead (i.e., Abraham and Israel) are no longer captive. Whatever captivity Death held them in was destroyed by Christ. The triumph of life. We are not destined for a dismal, semi-conscious eternity like Abraham may have been. The understanding of the game has changed radically since Isaiah's day.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2010, 10:23:59 PM by bogdan »

Offline Melodist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #112 on: August 28, 2010, 12:09:25 AM »
Rev 8:5 doesn't picture individuals talking to Mary or the saints.

It does picture the saints in heaven, having our prayers (however it is they received them), and offering them to God. Scripture does have a few lines in one of the Psalms directed to the angels, the hosts, and "all his works in all places of his dominion". Matt. 18:10 implies that at least the angels are 1) aware of what is happening on earth, and 2) in communication with God about what happens on earth while they are in heaven. Luke 15:7 implies that all of heaven is aware of the repentence of a sinner (something that happens down here).

Psalm 103:20-22
Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure. Bless the LORD, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the LORD, O my soul.

Matt 18:10
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #113 on: August 28, 2010, 06:41:11 AM »
Therefore I don't believe THEOSIS allows the departed in heaven, hear us. They are departed, they have "left the building," and no longer hear us:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  

Saints Abraham and Israel are ignorant of individuals on earth, so God's people pray to God, not them. Unlike them, He hears us.  

Hmmmmm, leaving aside the fact the statement in Isaiah never says that Abraham IS ignorant nor that Israel acknowledges not (it's like saying "Though my father love me not, God is there", my father loves me, but even if he didn't God does), there was a major change in the lands of the dead (Hebrew Sheol, Greek Hades) between the time of Isaiah and the time of the Church.  One might call it an upheaval.  Can you guess what it was?

It certainly DOES say Abraham and Israel ARE ignorant of the living:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  


As for Revelation, where you folks see Mary and the saints hearing prayers and making intercession, is beyond me:

From verses 5:9-10 the prayers are from saints already in heaven, not saints from earth.

AND from vv 5:1--7 we see this event occurs AFTER Christ receives the scroll having seven seals, so its a an event in time, not describing a daily scene in heaven forever:

NKJ  Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.
 2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?"
 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.
 4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it.
 5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."
 6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
 8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
 9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
 (Rev 5:1-10 NKJ)

Rev 8:1ff is same as above, after the seals are opened, THEN an angel, not a human, offers up the prayers of the saints already in heaven. AND no intercession on their behalf occurs at these occasions.

NKJ  Revelation 8:1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.
 3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel's hand.
 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
 (Rev 8:1-5 NKJ)

NOTHING either context has Mary and saints receiving the prayers of believers on earth and making intercession for them.

You are biting into an apple, and declaring it proves what oranges taste like....no it does not. These events have nothing to say about prayers to Mary and the saints or their intercession on behalf of the living.

11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev 6:11 NKJ)

They are resting, not constantly disturbed by the incessant demands and whining of millions on earth.

I am convinced God alone can endure such communication, it would overwhelm any being of lesser fortitude and Love.

Anyone not God would find the incessant demands torture, a living hell. The opposite of rest from labor.



Mary is resting in heaven, not a slave to the incessant requests for favor from folks she never met.

As God loves Mary, that alone is enough proof He would never allow you folks disturb her well earned rest.

IN fact, persisting in such activity might "rub God" the wrong way.

I'll not be rebelling against God's granting her rest, with requests for favor, you can be sure of that.
[/i]

Being its Jesus' Mother, the possibility of disturbing her against His wishes should make one cower in fear.

11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men (2Co 5:11 NKJ)

« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 07:02:03 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #114 on: August 28, 2010, 06:51:55 AM »
Rev 8:5 doesn't picture individuals talking to Mary or the saints.

It does picture the saints in heaven, having our prayers (however it is they received them), and offering them to God. Scripture does have a few lines in one of the Psalms directed to the angels, the hosts, and "all his works in all places of his dominion". Matt. 18:10 implies that at least the angels are 1) aware of what is happening on earth, and 2) in communication with God about what happens on earth while they are in heaven. Luke 15:7 implies that all of heaven is aware of the repentence of a sinner (something that happens down here).

Psalm 103:20-22
Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure. Bless the LORD, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the LORD, O my soul.

Matt 18:10
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.


These praying saints are already in heaven at the time the book of seals is given to the lamb, the prayers are not from saints on earth and no intercession is occurring in either context.

Psalm 103:20-22 does not say pray to Mary and she will intercede for you.

Matt 18:10 doesn't mention the living praying to children in heaven to obtain favor.

Luke 15:7 Says nothing about praying to the departed, its about sinners repenting, and the joy that brings in heaven.





« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 07:04:01 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #115 on: August 28, 2010, 07:55:59 AM »
Hebrew 12:1 is following the usual sense of MARTUS, those surrounding us are examples of faithful living, they witness as in a courtroom by their acts of faithfulness, and seeing them inspires us.

By your interpretation it follows the usual sense, as you describe. But you are presupposing that it means that. There is absolutely no indication in the text that it must be taken as such.

(Aside: I personally have never heard of such an interpretation of that verse, neither when I was Protestant nor since becoming Orthodox. I thought it was standard belief among Protestants that the heavenlies are aware of us, except that there is perhaps a one-way mirror between us and them. Huh.)


As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Have you read the New Testament? The Apostles healed people and even raised the dead. People didn't have to pray to them; they were there in the flesh.

(Technically, the people asking the then-living Apostles to help them was an act of prayer. A prayer is simply a request, as in the phrase, "I pray you tell." Also, notice that when asked, the Apostles simply healed people. They didn't say, "No! Don't ask me, idolator! Go pray to God and he'll heal your child.")

But you betray your bias. You assume that every important (or not so important) event that ever happened in the lives of the Apostles is recorded in the New Testament; or at least, you believe that if something was important, it would be recorded. You cannot argue from silence. Such is a fallacy of logic.

As we know, written documents were held with suspicion in antiquity. It's not hard to write a false account and hand out 100 copies of it. Look at all the false epistles and gospels the Gnostics used. What *is* hard is to simultaneously get the entire Church to believe a false teaching. That is why the Apostles held Holy Tradition in such high regard. It's far more reliable than scribbles on paper.

Back to the issue at hand, I absolutely believe there are such people alive today. They don't often appear in the West because of our insatiable doubt (cf Matt. 13:58), but there are definitely people alive today who partake of the divine nature just like the Apostles did.

You probably won't believe this in your own enlightened doubt, but there are modern examples of living saints who healed people without being told the people needed help, and/or over great distances, because they were clairvoyant. St John of San Francisco did this on a number of occasions, among a host of similar miracles, medically verifiable and all. I can actually also think of a couple accounts of "prayers" he received via letter and telephone, and the requests were met instantly.

Therefore I don't believe THEOSIS allows the departed in heaven, hear us. They are departed, they have "left the building," and no longer hear us:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  

Saints Abraham and Israel are ignorant of individuals on earth, so God's people pray to God, not them. Unlike them, He hears us.

The pre-Resurrection Jewish understanding of death is vastly different from the Christian one. After the Resurrection, as the Theotokion at the end of Sunday Matins says,

Most blessed art thou, O Virgin Theotokos, for through Him that was incarnate of thee is Hades despoiled, Adam is recalled from the dead, the curse is made void, Eve is set free, Death is slain, and we are endowed with Life. Wherefore, in hymns of praise, we cry aloud: Blessed art Thou, O Christ our God, Who is thus well pleased, glory to Thee.

Those who were dead (i.e., Abraham and Israel) are no longer captive. Whatever captivity Death held them in was destroyed by Christ. The triumph of life. We are not destined for a dismal, semi-conscious eternity like Abraham may have been. The understanding of the game has changed radically since Isaiah's day.

Heb 12:1 is following the usual sense of MARTUS, this is not "presupposition," its exegesis, the context doesn't describe what they do as they witness us, it refers to them as witnesses testifying about faithful living, and then exhorts us to imitate their example:

NKJ  Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. (Heb 12:1-3 NKJ)

The writer is not discussing these witnesses and how they watch and listen to us, he cites them and exhorts us to follow their example, lay aside every weight and run the race with endurance.

Even Christ's example is cited to inspire us, not to say He is watching us like a spectator.


IN context MARTUS is being used as it usually is in Paul's writings, about one who is a witness in court testifying what the facts are:

NKJ Romans 1:9  For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers,
NKJ 2 Corinthians 1:23  Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth.
NKJ 2 Corinthians 13:1  This will be the third time I am coming to you. "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established."
NKJ Philippians 1:8  For God is my witness, how greatly I long for you all with the affection of Jesus Christ.
NKJ 1 Thessalonians 2:5  For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness-- God is witness.
NKJ 1 Thessalonians 2:10  You are witnesses, and God also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe;
NKJ 1 Timothy 5:19  Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.
NKJ 1 Timothy 6:12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
NKJ 2 Timothy 2:2  And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
NKJ Hebrews 10:28  Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Only in 1 Th 2:10, 1 Ti 6:12 2 Ti 2:2 do we have the idea of WATCHERS, and there also, its so they can testify as to the facts.

Exegesis of the Context, not presupposition, determines how MARTUS is meant in Hebrew 12:1

NKJ Hebrews 12:1  Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,


What is written about these witnesses, that they watch and observe all we do and then....

Or

Being we are surrounded by so many witnesses to faithful living, " let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,"


Clearly the latter.


Evidently you didn't consult the doctors of the faith when you were a Protestant, the idea is found in many commentaries, Abbot New Testament Commentary; Willaim Burkitt Expository Notes; John Calvin's Verse Commentary to name a few.

There are lots more.

When I hear someone say "I used to be a Reformer....I used to be a Protestant like you" I know they were never like me. I sold all I owned to follow Christ. Any riches I have acquired since are spent serving Him, and learning His truth. That's where my NET money goes,

I have a library that rivals the biggest mega churches. When I want answers, I find them.

Technology makes this easy...Logos Bible Software 4 (although vers 3 is excellent also), Bibleworks 8.0, make searching through reams of commentary and scripture, a snap. I rarely consult the printed text, my electronic library is so vast.


Even the starter editions brings your Bible research into the 21st century. Another program worthy of mention is "Swordsearcher." AND there is a free Bible research program called "e-Sword" that is excellent. Be sure to download all the free modules:

http://www.e-sword.net/

This program even has the Greek Septuagint numerically coded to Strong's Greek Concordance.

I will continue in another post, your comments on THEOSIS.





« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 08:08:52 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #116 on: August 28, 2010, 08:22:09 AM »
Heb 12:1 is following the usual sense of MARTUS, this is not "presupposition," its exegesis, the context doesn't describe what they do as they witness us, it refers to them as witnesses testifying about faithful living, and then exhorts us to imitate their example:

NKJ  Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. (Heb 12:1-3 NKJ)

The writer is not discussing these witnesses and how they watch and listen to us, he cites them and exhorts us to follow their example, lay aside every weight and run the race with endurance.

Even Christ's example is cited to inspire us, not to say He is watching us like a spectator.


IN context MARTUS is being used as it usually is in Paul's writings, about one who is a witness in court testifying what the facts are:

NKJ Romans 1:9  For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers,
NKJ 2 Corinthians 1:23  Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth.
NKJ 2 Corinthians 13:1  This will be the third time I am coming to you. "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established."
NKJ Philippians 1:8  For God is my witness, how greatly I long for you all with the affection of Jesus Christ.
NKJ 1 Thessalonians 2:5  For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness-- God is witness.
NKJ 1 Thessalonians 2:10  You are witnesses, and God also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe;
NKJ 1 Timothy 5:19  Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.
NKJ 1 Timothy 6:12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
NKJ 2 Timothy 2:2  And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
NKJ Hebrews 10:28  Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Only in 1 Th 2:10, 1 Ti 6:12 2 Ti 2:2 do we have the idea of WATCHERS, and there also, its so they can testify as to the facts.

Exegesis of the Context, not presupposition, determines how MARTUS is meant in Hebrew 12:1

NKJ Hebrews 12:1  Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,


What is written about these witnesses, that they watch and observe all we do and then....

Or

Being we are surrounded by so many witnesses to faithful living, " let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,"


Clearly the latter.

So then, why does the ancient Church—people who spoke ancient Koine Greek as their first language and actually experienced the culture and living usage of the word MARTUS—interpret it differently from you? Did your Johnny-come-lately Protestant "church fathers" somehow get enlightened about something that all of Christendom missed out on for 1500 years? We're approaching Joseph Smith territory here.


Evidently you didn't consult the doctors of the faith when you were a Protestant, the idea is found in many commentaries, Abbot New Testament Commentary; Willaim Burkitt Expository Notes; John Calvin's Verse Commentary to name a few.

There are lots more.

Irrelevant. Their knowledge of the Apostolic age is theoretical at best. Their knowledge of Koine Greek is scholarly. Whereas we have teachings of people who knew the Apostles, and their disciples, and their students, who universally believed the saints are surrounding us and observing us.

You take reconstructionism over the real thing. Which is fine; that's your right. But you must know how ridiculous it is—in any given field, including exegesis—to say "I'm going to throw out the eyewitnesses as spurious and instead take the word of reconstructionists who lived 1000 years later and had absolutely no experiential knowledge of the intricacies of language and its usage. Because that's all Calvin et al. have to work with—a reconstructed language.

But it's not just them. I know one staunch Calvinist preacher, who has literally traveled the world to study Christianity, and who balks at Orthodoxy, and he believes the people in heaven are constantly observing us on earth. Clearly it's not so cut-and-dried even for Protestants.

Why do you hold your Protestant "doctors of the faith" above the Church Fathers who were universally recognized by all Christians for centuries? I'm thankful for your honesty that you also have teachers you follow. Many in the Sola Scriptura cloud would not be so honest.

When I hear someone say "I used to be a Reformer....I used to be a Protestant like you" I know they were never like me. I sold all I owned to follow Christ. Any riches I have acquired since are spent serving Him, and learning His truth.

You truly are a living saint. I'll say a prayer to you this evening.

That's where my NET money goes, I have a library that rivals the biggest mega churches. When I want answers, I find them.

That's good. I also have books and websites I consult when I want answers, so we have that in common.

Technology makes this easy...Logos Bible Software 4 (although vers 3 is excellent also), Bibleworks 8.0, make searching through reams of commentary and scripture, a snap. I rarely consult the printed text, my electronic library is so vast.

Even the starter editions brings your Bible research into the 21st century. Another program worthy of mention is "Swordsearcher." AND there is a free Bible research program called "e-Sword" that is excellent. Be sure to download all the free modules:

http://www.e-sword.net/
I have e-Sword, it's good stuff.



[/quote]
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 08:26:20 AM by bogdan »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #117 on: August 28, 2010, 09:06:37 AM »
Again the preaching in the tradition of man is given to us divorced from holy tradition by inflating an aspect of heavenly worship within holy tradition counter to its meaning reduced to legalistic, justification of human reasoning. Case in point, "the cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 are reduced by individualist rationalization to an obituary listing by opinion that replaces their role within the scripture since it is their witness that assists us to "lay aside every weight and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2 in part).

The tradition of man being preached to us keeps boasting in the scripture that we do not follow scripture which is false and refernces to Calvin for wisdom are poison to us. To expand on the cloud of witness idea, if I was an Ethiopian Orthodox, this concept would be easily Biblically illustrated to me on the basis that the book of Enoch which is in the canon of their church states, "...I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, & praying for the sons of men.." (enoch 39:4). This is the understanding we see within the letter of Hebrews and the roll call given by St. Paul (which includes Enoch) in Hebrews 11 of the faithful witnesses in which the point culminates in Hebrews 12:1. The concept of the many habitations seems most similar to what the Lord says, "In My Father's house are many mansions..."in John 14:2.

Why Enoch is not universal canon, I do not know (it was lost for over 1000 years in many areas) but it was written before & attests to the revelation of the Son of God in many areas & clearly evident within holy tradtion & such attestation expressed in liturgical worship centuries prior to the codification of canon beats guess work of the apostolic faith expressed by a tradtion of man.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 09:10:07 AM by recent convert »
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Offline Melodist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #118 on: August 28, 2010, 09:31:00 AM »
These praying saints are already in heaven at the time the book of seals is given to the lamb, the prayers are not from saints on earth and no intercession is occurring in either context.

The word "saints" is typically used in the NT to refer to the saints here on earth. The saints in heaven are offering up the prayers of the saints on earth.

Quote
Psalm 103:20-22 does not say pray to Mary and she will intercede for you.

It might not be addressed to human saints in heaven, but it is addressed to the angels in heaven. There is a line addressed to someone in heaven, other than God.

Quote
Matt 18:10 doesn't mention the living praying to children in heaven to obtain favor.

It says that the angels in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth and communicate (pray) to God about it.

Quote
Luke 15:7 Says nothing about praying to the departed, its about sinners repenting, and the joy that brings in
heaven.

It says that heaven (human saints would be included, seeing there is no restriction to "who" in heaven is rejoicing) is aware of events that happen on earth (the repentence of a sinner).

Between all of these, it is established that those in heaven are aware of what goes on down here, we can address those in heaven, and they communicate with God and offer up prayers.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #119 on: August 28, 2010, 10:06:40 AM »
Alfred, I only have a few minutes, but what about when Moses & Elijah appeared with Christ at the Transfiguration & talked with Him about the things that were going on?  Obviously (a) they were dead AND (b) they knew what was happening here on earth.  So death is not a barrier -even less so now since Christ destroyed the power of Hades!

Gotta go - as you may have noticed it's MUCH cooler today so we're off for a bike ride! :)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 10:12:16 AM by theistgal »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #120 on: August 28, 2010, 10:39:51 AM »
Alfred, I only have a few minutes, but what about when Moses & Elijah appeared with Christ at the Transfiguration & talked with Him about the things that were going on?  Obviously (a) they were dead AND (b) they knew what was happening here on earth.  So death is not a barrier -even less so now since Christ destroyed the power of Hades!

Gotta go - as you may have noticed it's MUCH cooler today so we're off for a bike ride! :)

Ride to live, live to ride, but I do it on my Yamaha Stratoliner...if you see an ugly guy on a nice bike, it might be me!

The transfiguration was the TELEIOS(complete) breaking into our MEROS(partial) 1 Cor 13:10, the "kingdom of God present with power." So Moses and Elijah weren't in heaven when they talked with Christ, there were here albeit in realm having the dimension of God's revelation:

NKJ  Mark 9:1 And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power."
 2 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them.
 3 His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them.
 4 And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.
 5 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah "--
 6 because he did not know what to say, for they were greatly afraid.
 7 And a cloud came and overshadowed them; and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!"
 8 Suddenly, when they had looked around, they saw no one anymore, but only Jesus with themselves.
 (Mar 9:1-8 NKJ)

Hence this event is a proof text AGAINST speaking to the dead as they  had to come to Christ on earth to hear what He had to say.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 10:41:14 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #121 on: August 28, 2010, 10:46:50 AM »
As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Have you read the New Testament? The Apostles healed people and even raised the dead. People didn't have to pray to them; they were there in the flesh.

(Technically, the people asking the then-living Apostles to help them was an act of prayer. A prayer is simply a request, as in the phrase, "I pray you tell." Also, notice that when asked, the Apostles simply healed people. They didn't say, "No! Don't ask me, idolator! Go pray to God and he'll heal your child.")

You evaded my question...here it is again:

As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

I see the apostles doing lots of miracles, communicating with folks not present isn't one of them.

Answer the question please.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #122 on: August 28, 2010, 10:53:52 AM »
Again the preaching in the tradition of man is given to us divorced from holy tradition by inflating an aspect of heavenly worship within holy tradition counter to its meaning reduced to legalistic, justification of human reasoning. Case in point, "the cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 are reduced by individualist rationalization to an obituary listing by opinion that replaces their role within the scripture since it is their witness that assists us to "lay aside every weight and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2 in part).

The tradition of man being preached to us keeps boasting in the scripture that we do not follow scripture which is false and refernces to Calvin for wisdom are poison to us. To expand on the cloud of witness idea, if I was an Ethiopian Orthodox, this concept would be easily Biblically illustrated to me on the basis that the book of Enoch which is in the canon of their church states, "...I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, & praying for the sons of men.." (enoch 39:4). This is the understanding we see within the letter of Hebrews and the roll call given by St. Paul (which includes Enoch) in Hebrews 11 of the faithful witnesses in which the point culminates in Hebrews 12:1. The concept of the many habitations seems most similar to what the Lord says, "In My Father's house are many mansions..."in John 14:2.

Why Enoch is not universal canon, I do not know (it was lost for over 1000 years in many areas) but it was written before & attests to the revelation of the Son of God in many areas & clearly evident within holy tradtion & such attestation expressed in liturgical worship centuries prior to the codification of canon beats guess work of the apostolic faith expressed by a tradtion of man.

A self contradiction, decrying the "tradition of man" you bind yourself to Orthodox tradition, which realized its defects and sought to stabilize itself in the "consensus of the fathers."

Sola scriptura is the antidote for relying upon "the tradition of man," for the Bible is written by God.


.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #123 on: August 28, 2010, 10:56:41 AM »
So then, why does the ancient Church—people who spoke ancient Koine Greek as their first language and actually experienced the culture and living usage of the word MARTUS—interpret it differently from you? Did your Johnny-come-lately Protestant "church fathers" somehow get enlightened about something that all of Christendom missed out on for 1500 years? We're approaching Joseph Smith territory here.

They have other tradition apart from scripture they pay attention to.

If you follow the text, you must conclude it says nothing about the dead watching and hearing our prayers, and interceding for us.

YOU try to find those words in the context. I looked, they aren't there.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #124 on: August 28, 2010, 11:33:57 AM »
Mr. Persson,

Do you happen to agree with the substance of the Nicene Creed? Yes, I think you said you do.

Was it not the "men" of the church who wrote it with consensus inspired by the Holy Spirit? Was not the Bible written by the "men" of the church inspired by the Holy Spirit? And were not the number of those books chosen by the men of the church with consensus inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Regards
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #125 on: August 28, 2010, 12:38:30 PM »
As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Have you read the New Testament? The Apostles healed people and even raised the dead. People didn't have to pray to them; they were there in the flesh.

(Technically, the people asking the then-living Apostles to help them was an act of prayer. A prayer is simply a request, as in the phrase, "I pray you tell." Also, notice that when asked, the Apostles simply healed people. They didn't say, "No! Don't ask me, idolator! Go pray to God and he'll heal your child.")

You evaded my question...here it is again:

As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture.
For someone who has recognized full well the fallacy of arguments from silence, you seem to rely upon these arguments from silence quite a bit in your posts. ::)  If arguments from silence don't work for others, what makes you so special that you think they'll work for you?

I will answer if you, who claim to know the fundaments of debates answer this:

is absence of evidence, evidence of absence?
Or in other words, in all unsolved murders, the absence of evidence of the identity of the murderer is evidence that this identity is actually absent (and therefore the murder was committed by a person withouth identity)?

No, an argument from silence is unsound, proves nothing. ...
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 12:40:34 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #126 on: August 28, 2010, 02:34:43 PM »


It certainly DOES say Abraham and Israel ARE ignorant of the living:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  




Nope, not at all.  The statement here is the same as St Peter saying "Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended." (Matt 26:33)  It is a hypothetical statement.  In this case "Though" means "if" or "suppose".  The Hebrews were relatively agnostic about the afterlife, and made no definitive statements one way or the other.  They had no way of knowing if Abraham or Israel could know anything.

From the parable of the rich man and Lazarus it seems as if Abraham has greater knowledge than you assume from this one text in Isaiah, knowing the deeds of the rich man and Lazarus both.

Regardless, you still don't seem to see the fundamental difference between a hypothetical statement in Isaiah's time and a reality in ours.  The Living God descended into Sheol and set the captives free.  Those who were in the ignorance of death were sent the Divine Truth of Life (I Peter 3:18-20, 4:6)!
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #127 on: August 28, 2010, 04:21:35 PM »
As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Have you read the New Testament? The Apostles healed people and even raised the dead. People didn't have to pray to them; they were there in the flesh.

(Technically, the people asking the then-living Apostles to help them was an act of prayer. A prayer is simply a request, as in the phrase, "I pray you tell." Also, notice that when asked, the Apostles simply healed people. They didn't say, "No! Don't ask me, idolator! Go pray to God and he'll heal your child.")

You evaded my question...here it is again:

As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

I see the apostles doing lots of miracles, communicating with folks not present isn't one of them.

Answer the question please.

I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 04:28:37 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #128 on: August 28, 2010, 10:57:03 PM »
As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Have you read the New Testament? The Apostles healed people and even raised the dead. People didn't have to pray to them; they were there in the flesh.

(Technically, the people asking the then-living Apostles to help them was an act of prayer. A prayer is simply a request, as in the phrase, "I pray you tell." Also, notice that when asked, the Apostles simply healed people. They didn't say, "No! Don't ask me, idolator! Go pray to God and he'll heal your child.")

You evaded my question...here it is again:

As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

I see the apostles doing lots of miracles, communicating with folks not present isn't one of them.

Answer the question please.

I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #129 on: August 28, 2010, 11:11:16 PM »


It certainly DOES say Abraham and Israel ARE ignorant of the living:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  

Nope, not at all.  The statement here is the same as St Peter saying "Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended." (Matt 26:33)  It is a hypothetical statement.  In this case "Though" means "if" or "suppose".  The Hebrews were relatively agnostic about the afterlife, and made no definitive statements one way or the other.  They had no way of knowing if Abraham or Israel could know anything.

From the parable of the rich man and Lazarus it seems as if Abraham has greater knowledge than you assume from this one text in Isaiah, knowing the deeds of the rich man and Lazarus both.

Regardless, you still don't seem to see the fundamental difference between a hypothetical statement in Isaiah's time and a reality in ours.  The Living God descended into Sheol and set the captives free.  Those who were in the ignorance of death were sent the Divine Truth of Life (I Peter 3:18-20, 4:6)!

"Though" is not in the Greek:

BGT  Isaiah 63:16 σὺ γὰρ ἡμῶν εἶ πατήρ ὅτι Αβρααμ οὐκ ἔγνω ἡμᾶς καὶ Ισραηλ οὐκ ἐπέγνω ἡμᾶς ἀλλὰ σύ κύριε πατὴρ ἡμῶν ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς τὸ ὄνομά σου ἐφ᾽ ἡμᾶς ἐστιν (Isa 63:16 BGT)

LXE  Isaiah 63:16 For thou art our Father; for though Abraham knew us not, and Israel did not acknowledge us, yet do thou, O Lord, our Father, deliver us: thy name has been upon us from the beginning.  (Isa 63:16 LXE)

It affirms literally directly "for Abraham knew us not."

No "if" in the Greek at all, no "though".

The dead are departed, angels come and take their souls into paradise upon death...paradise is in third heaven...its the place from whence Christ will "scoop up" souls to resurrect during His descent at His Second coming:

NKJ  Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
 (Luk 23:43 NKJ)

Paradise = Third Heaven

 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
 3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 (2Co 12:2-4 NKJ)

Its up, not down:

LXE  Ecclesiastes 3:21 And who has seen the spirit of the sons of man, whether it goes upward? and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth?
 (Ecc 3:21 LXE)

 22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 (Luk 16:22-23 NKJ)

Christ empties third heaven of human souls during His descent...He brings them with Him, they are part of His army:
 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 (1Th 4:15-18 NKJ)


THEREFORE the departed, being they are "departed," cannot hear us.

« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 11:12:12 PM by Alfred Persson »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #130 on: August 28, 2010, 11:30:18 PM »
As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

Have you read the New Testament? The Apostles healed people and even raised the dead. People didn't have to pray to them; they were there in the flesh.

(Technically, the people asking the then-living Apostles to help them was an act of prayer. A prayer is simply a request, as in the phrase, "I pray you tell." Also, notice that when asked, the Apostles simply healed people. They didn't say, "No! Don't ask me, idolator! Go pray to God and he'll heal your child.")

You evaded my question...here it is again:

As for THEOSIS, if that enabled saints to hear other saints not actually present, then you would find examples of that in scripture. Surely you believe there are some on earth today who partake of divine nature. Why do these folks have telephones to talk to each other, if divine energies make them part of a communion of the saints network?

I see the apostles doing lots of miracles, communicating with folks not present isn't one of them.

Answer the question please.

I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:
No, it doesn't.  What this passage from one of St. Paul's epistles does claim is that the Scriptures are useful for fully equipping the follower of Christ for good works, but it doesn't say that the Scriptures have everything necessary for us to be so equipped.  What you present is a very common Protestant eisegesis of the text, but it is nowhere to be found in the text.

15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #131 on: August 28, 2010, 11:54:32 PM »
A self contradiction, decrying the "tradition of man" you bind yourself to Orthodox tradition, which realized its defects and sought to stabilize itself in the "consensus of the fathers."

Sola scriptura is the antidote for relying upon "the tradition of man," for the Bible is written by God.

How many "man-made" English translations of the Bible exist?  NIV, NKJV, RSV, ESV, "the Message," and so on....

How many "man-made" interpretations of the Bible exist?

So, if "something" in the Bible doesn't agree with "your" belief system (or Mel Gibson's or Anne Rice's, just for sake of argument), then you "conjure up" an interpretation and proselytize to us that you discovered something that we hadn't noticed previously.

If I tried that, I would be discredited in a heartbeat; yet, you've had hundreds of posts to keep digging your own grave.  I'm not the one to give you a shovel to keep digging your own grave.   ;D

Edited for content
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 11:55:58 PM by SolEX01 »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #132 on: August 29, 2010, 12:05:24 AM »


It certainly DOES say Abraham and Israel ARE ignorant of the living:

KJV Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.  

Nope, not at all.  The statement here is the same as St Peter saying "Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended." (Matt 26:33)  It is a hypothetical statement.  In this case "Though" means "if" or "suppose".  The Hebrews were relatively agnostic about the afterlife, and made no definitive statements one way or the other.  They had no way of knowing if Abraham or Israel could know anything.

From the parable of the rich man and Lazarus it seems as if Abraham has greater knowledge than you assume from this one text in Isaiah, knowing the deeds of the rich man and Lazarus both.

Regardless, you still don't seem to see the fundamental difference between a hypothetical statement in Isaiah's time and a reality in ours.  The Living God descended into Sheol and set the captives free.  Those who were in the ignorance of death were sent the Divine Truth of Life (I Peter 3:18-20, 4:6)!

"Though" is not in the Greek:

BGT  Isaiah 63:16 σὺ γὰρ ἡμῶν εἶ πατήρ ὅτι Αβρααμ οὐκ ἔγνω ἡμᾶς καὶ Ισραηλ οὐκ ἐπέγνω ἡμᾶς ἀλλὰ σύ κύριε πατὴρ ἡμῶν ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπ᾽ ἀρχῆς τὸ ὄνομά σου ἐφ᾽ ἡμᾶς ἐστιν (Isa 63:16 BGT)

LXE  Isaiah 63:16 For thou art our Father; for though Abraham knew us not, and Israel did not acknowledge us, yet do thou, O Lord, our Father, deliver us: thy name has been upon us from the beginning.  (Isa 63:16 LXE)

It affirms literally directly "for Abraham knew us not."

No "if" in the Greek at all, no "though".


I'm willing to concede that "ei" in this case might be a form of "eis" and not "ei" which means "if" or "though", but if so a lot of translators have it off.  Regardless, one verse in Isaiah does not supersede a parable of Christ, in which Abraham seems a lot more informed than you think.


Quote
The dead are departed, angels come and take their souls into paradise upon death...paradise is in third heaven...its the place from whence Christ will "scoop up" souls to resurrect during His descent at His Second coming:

NKJ  Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
 (Luk 23:43 NKJ)

Paradise = Third Heaven

 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
 3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 (2Co 12:2-4 NKJ)

Some.  Some ring the throne of God, as seen in Revelation 4:4.


Quote
Its up, not down:

LXE  Ecclesiastes 3:21 And who has seen the spirit of the sons of man, whether it goes upward? and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth?
 (Ecc 3:21 LXE)

Wow, you are really stretching it here.  It's a statement of agnosticism, the very verse prior the Preacher claims that both souls of animals and man go to the same place.  It's certainly not a roadmap to the afterlife.

Quote
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 (Luk 16:22-23 NKJ)

All we see here is that Lazarus was "up" in relation to the rich man.

Quote
Christ empties third heaven of human souls during His descent...He brings them with Him, they are part of His army:
 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 (1Th 4:15-18 NKJ)


Christ already descended, both into the world and into the grave.  Yes, we look forward to His return, but this very verse you give to us shows Christ not bringing those "from the third heaven down" but all meeting together in the clouds.

Quote
THEREFORE the departed, being they are "departed," cannot hear us.

Nothing you have shown proves one way or the other.  You are arguing not from silence but from proof-texts that have absolutely nothing to do with your point.

Good night, Mr Persson.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #133 on: August 29, 2010, 01:54:12 AM »
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:15-18 NKJ)

19 Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. (2Ti 4:19 NKJ)

So its likely this Onespihorus was departed,

On a side note, does this mean that you are not opposed to praying for the departed?

And just in case you missed it

These praying saints are already in heaven at the time the book of seals is given to the lamb, the prayers are not from saints on earth and no intercession is occurring in either context.

The word "saints" is typically used in the NT to refer to the saints here on earth. The saints in heaven are offering up the prayers of the saints on earth.

Quote
Psalm 103:20-22 does not say pray to Mary and she will intercede for you.

It might not be addressed to human saints in heaven, but it is addressed to the angels in heaven. There is a line addressed to someone in heaven, other than God.

Quote
Matt 18:10 doesn't mention the living praying to children in heaven to obtain favor.

It says that the angels in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth and communicate (pray) to God about it.

Quote
Luke 15:7 Says nothing about praying to the departed, its about sinners repenting, and the joy that brings in
heaven.

It says that heaven (human saints would be included, seeing there is no restriction to "who" in heaven is rejoicing) is aware of events that happen on earth (the repentence of a sinner).

Between all of these, it is established that those in heaven are aware of what goes on down here, we can address those in heaven, and they communicate with God and offer up prayers.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #134 on: August 29, 2010, 02:54:22 AM »
You evaded my question...here it is again
For someone who has recognized full well the fallacy of arguments from silence, you seem to rely upon these arguments from silence quite a bit in your posts. ::)  If arguments from silence don't work for others, what makes you so special that you think they'll work for you?
is absence of evidence, evidence of absence?
No, an argument from silence is unsound, proves nothing...

Mr. Persson,

Do you happen to agree with the substance of the Nicene Creed? Yes, I think you said you do.

Was it not the "men" of the church who wrote it with consensus inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Was not the Bible written by the "men" of the church inspired by the Holy Spirit?

And were not the number of those books chosen by the men of the church with consensus inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Regards


What do you think?

Perhaps while some traditions, like some ancient "men" of the early church may not be INFALLIBLE, they may still be an important AUTHORITY on the true Christian faith.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 03:02:16 AM by rakovsky »
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