Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 191586 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #855 on: October 10, 2010, 01:31:26 AM »
Your traditions will fail the test, but Sola Scriptura will pass, for it shines God's light in the dark place, it makes visible the obscure, by relying upon the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of God's Holy Word, and His Word is always true.
BTW, Alfred, it just came to me.

Proof that the doctrine of sola scriptura is one of the most vile heresies ever invented: the evil fruit of Protestant sectarianism. If reliance on the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of the words, guarantees a proper understanding of God's Word, how come Protestantism is divided into such a myriad of warring factions over their different and sometimes contradictory interpretations of "God's Word"?

"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me."  - John 17:20-23

For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.  - 1 Corinthians 14:33

Your sola scriptura camp seems pretty confused to me, Alfred. If sola scriptura is of God, how come it bears such rotten fruit?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 03:04:07 AM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #856 on: October 10, 2010, 01:32:17 AM »
Here's a bit of Holy Tradition we can all appreciate about now:

Therefore we request that from henceforth you do not cause us more grief, nor write to us on the same subject if you should wish to treat these luminaries and theologians of the Church in a different manner [than we].  You honor and exalt them in words, but you reject them in deeds.  For you try to prove our weapons, which are their holy and divine discourses, as unsuitable.  And it is with these documents that we would have to write and contradict you.

 Thus, as for you, please release us from these cares.  Therefore, going about your own ways, write no longer concerning dogmas; but if you do, write only for friendship's sake.  Farewell.

Who said that?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 01:32:25 AM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline bogdan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #857 on: October 10, 2010, 07:59:07 AM »
Here's a bit of Holy Tradition we can all appreciate about now:

Therefore we request that from henceforth you do not cause us more grief, nor write to us on the same subject if you should wish to treat these luminaries and theologians of the Church in a different manner [than we].  You honor and exalt them in words, but you reject them in deeds.  For you try to prove our weapons, which are their holy and divine discourses, as unsuitable.  And it is with these documents that we would have to write and contradict you.

 Thus, as for you, please release us from these cares.  Therefore, going about your own ways, write no longer concerning dogmas; but if you do, write only for friendship's sake.  Farewell.

Who said that?

Patriarch of Constantinople Jeremias II (+1595), in the last of his three letters exchanged with Lutherans who were trying to gain Orthodox recognition of the Augsburg Confession.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/jeremiah.aspx

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #858 on: October 10, 2010, 10:37:50 AM »
Here's a bit of Holy Tradition we can all appreciate about now:

Therefore we request that from henceforth you do not cause us more grief, nor write to us on the same subject if you should wish to treat these luminaries and theologians of the Church in a different manner [than we].  You honor and exalt them in words, but you reject them in deeds.  For you try to prove our weapons, which are their holy and divine discourses, as unsuitable.  And it is with these documents that we would have to write and contradict you. 

 Thus, as for you, please release us from these cares.  Therefore, going about your own ways, write no longer concerning dogmas; but if you do, write only for friendship's sake.  Farewell.


Antichrist (instead of Christ) advice, Christ treated the luminaries and theologians differently than the common people, because they were more liable:

 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
 (Luk 12:47-48 KJV)


While the alleged Masters were called hypocrites, offspring of snakes, NEVER the common people.

In fact, Christ ate and drank with sinners, causing the self righteous luminaries and theologians to protest:

NKJ  Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, "How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?"
 (Mar 2:16 NKJ)


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #859 on: October 10, 2010, 10:56:51 AM »
Your traditions will fail the test, but Sola Scriptura will pass, for it shines God's light in the dark place, it makes visible the obscure, by relying upon the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of God's Holy Word, and His Word is always true.
BTW, Alfred, it just came to me.

Proof that the doctrine of sola scriptura is one of the most vile heresies ever invented: the evil fruit of Protestant sectarianism. If reliance on the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of the words, guarantees a proper understanding of God's Word, how come Protestantism is divided into such a myriad of warring factions over their different and sometimes contradictory interpretations of "God's Word"?

"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me."  - John 17:20-23

For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.  - 1 Corinthians 14:33

Your sola scriptura camp seems pretty confused to me, Alfred. If sola scriptura is of God, how come it bears such rotten fruit?

You should always distrust what "pops up" into mind, it could be a telepathic suggestion by a devil (Luk 8:12; 1 Cor 12:2 cp Jas 1:13) misdirecting your attention from the truth.

 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Luk 8:12 KJV)

 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. (1Co 12:2 KJV)

 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
 (Jam 1:13-15 KJV)


You are not blaming sola scriptura, you are blaming the God who wrote scripture.

The Bible is not the cause of man's evil, God did not write scripture to create schisms and cults. The devil lies to you, don't be fooled.

Men are carried away into idolatry and sectarianism by the telepathic suggestions of devils, not the Bible:

KJV  1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1Ti 4:1 KJV)


And these evil spirits are aided and abetted by man's fallen heart, which tends to evil.


If "Tradition" were the cure for this,  then one must ask "whose tradition," that of the sectarians and cultists you point out exist, or yours. You don't even have yours itemized for me to read.

Moreover the sectarian and cults you refer to, are not sola scripturaists. Sola scripturaist churches exhibit  a miraculous level of agreement as to what scripture teaches, well over 95% and much of the 5% disagreement is in how to quantify, which idea to give the greater weight or they are in apostasy.

Two examples: One might agree the NT church did xyz, but insist that is related to culture and not applicable today. Women wearing head covering for example. Both churches agree its taught, but disagree on the application. That is a matter of personal judgment, not interpretation.

Apostates may fully agree scripture declares homosexuality (and heterosexual fornication and adultery) sinful, but they don't care.

Citing evil among Christians to blaspheme God's Word is a favorite Satanic argument against Christianity.

Beware of the "ideas" that "just pop up" into the mind, they sometimes are not good.


As for "that they may all be one", if that meant "all thinking alike," you should be a cultist, not Orthodox. Jehovah's Witnesses come to mind, they actually quote that verse and point out, among all the churches in Christendom, THEY alone have everyone thinking alike.

 You folks disagree with each other on so much, you can hardly make a commentary on scripture that you all agree with.

Rather your agreement is analogous to Roman Catholics, who have a common Pope, but actually disagree on just about everything else.

Sola Scripture is a principle one follows to arrive at truth. Its elementary it must be correct.
Truth is conformity to fact.
The Bible is truth.
Therefore an interpretation that is true (conforms to) to the Bible will be truth.

Unlike your reliance upon a set tradition, which essentially is hearsay, a sola scripturaist consults ALL available information, which may include your tradition, to see what the possibilities are. He then makes his decision based on what conforms to the grammar and syntax of the scripture, best.

That this method is sound, is proved by Christ:

 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. (Luk 2:46 KJV)

Christ asked the Jewish teachers of His day, for their thoughts and He evaluated them, just as a sola scripturist would.



Your reliance upon hearsay is not parsimonous. Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.

 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 11:25:31 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #860 on: October 10, 2010, 01:00:30 PM »
Here's a bit of Holy Tradition we can all appreciate about now:

Therefore we request that from henceforth you do not cause us more grief, nor write to us on the same subject if you should wish to treat these luminaries and theologians of the Church in a different manner [than we].  You honor and exalt them in words, but you reject them in deeds.  For you try to prove our weapons, which are their holy and divine discourses, as unsuitable.  And it is with these documents that we would have to write and contradict you. 

 Thus, as for you, please release us from these cares.  Therefore, going about your own ways, write no longer concerning dogmas; but if you do, write only for friendship's sake.  Farewell.


Antichrist (instead of Christ) advice, Christ treated the luminaries and theologians differently than the common people, because they were more liable:

 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
 (Luk 12:47-48 KJV)


While the alleged Masters were called hypocrites, offspring of snakes, NEVER the common people.

In fact, Christ ate and drank with sinners, causing the self righteous luminaries and theologians to protest:

NKJ  Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, "How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?"
 (Mar 2:16 NKJ)




Another reading comprehension fail. Look at it again.

"[Do not] write to us on the same subject if you should wish to treat these luminaries and theologians of the Church in a different manner [than we]."

The Patriarch, of blessed memory, said the Lutherans should stop writing to him if the Lutherans did not wish to treat the Church Fathers the same way the Orthodox do (i.e., give them inherent credibility). He said nothing about all this common man stuff that you pulled out of this. I don't know where you're getting that from.

But if this is how you read things, I'm not surprised you have pulled all sorts of crazy ideas out of the Bible.

Offline DennyB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 241
  • Moving Toward Orthodoxy
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #861 on: October 10, 2010, 07:21:08 PM »
Your traditions will fail the test, but Sola Scriptura will pass, for it shines God's light in the dark place, it makes visible the obscure, by relying upon the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of God's Holy Word, and His Word is always true.
BTW, Alfred, it just came to me.

Proof that the doctrine of sola scriptura is one of the most vile heresies ever invented: the evil fruit of Protestant sectarianism. If reliance on the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of the words, guarantees a proper understanding of God's Word, how come Protestantism is divided into such a myriad of warring factions over their different and sometimes contradictory interpretations of "God's Word"?

"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me."  - John 17:20-23

For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.  - 1 Corinthians 14:33

Your sola scriptura camp seems pretty confused to me, Alfred. If sola scriptura is of God, how come it bears such rotten fruit?

You should always distrust what "pops up" into mind, it could be a telepathic suggestion by a devil (Luk 8:12; 1 Cor 12:2 cp Jas 1:13) misdirecting your attention from the truth.

 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Luk 8:12 KJV)

 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. (1Co 12:2 KJV)

 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
 (Jam 1:13-15 KJV)


You are not blaming sola scriptura, you are blaming the God who wrote scripture.

The Bible is not the cause of man's evil, God did not write scripture to create schisms and cults. The devil lies to you, don't be fooled.

Men are carried away into idolatry and sectarianism by the telepathic suggestions of devils, not the Bible:

KJV  1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1Ti 4:1 KJV)


And these evil spirits are aided and abetted by man's fallen heart, which tends to evil.


If "Tradition" were the cure for this,  then one must ask "whose tradition," that of the sectarians and cultists you point out exist, or yours. You don't even have yours itemized for me to read.

Moreover the sectarian and cults you refer to, are not sola scripturaists. Sola scripturaist churches exhibit  a miraculous level of agreement as to what scripture teaches, well over 95% and much of the 5% disagreement is in how to quantify, which idea to give the greater weight or they are in apostasy.

Two examples: One might agree the NT church did xyz, but insist that is related to culture and not applicable today. Women wearing head covering for example. Both churches agree its taught, but disagree on the application. That is a matter of personal judgment, not interpretation.

Apostates may fully agree scripture declares homosexuality (and heterosexual fornication and adultery) sinful, but they don't care.

Citing evil among Christians to blaspheme God's Word is a favorite Satanic argument against Christianity.

Beware of the "ideas" that "just pop up" into the mind, they sometimes are not good.


As for "that they may all be one", if that meant "all thinking alike," you should be a cultist, not Orthodox. Jehovah's Witnesses come to mind, they actually quote that verse and point out, among all the churches in Christendom, THEY alone have everyone thinking alike.

 You folks disagree with each other on so much, you can hardly make a commentary on scripture that you all agree with.

Rather your agreement is analogous to Roman Catholics, who have a common Pope, but actually disagree on just about everything else.

Sola Scripture is a principle one follows to arrive at truth. Its elementary it must be correct.
Truth is conformity to fact.
The Bible is truth.
Therefore an interpretation that is true (conforms to) to the Bible will be truth.

Unlike your reliance upon a set tradition, which essentially is hearsay, a sola scripturaist consults ALL available information, which may include your tradition, to see what the possibilities are. He then makes his decision based on what conforms to the grammar and syntax of the scripture, best.

That this method is sound, is proved by Christ:

 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. (Luk 2:46 KJV)

Christ asked the Jewish teachers of His day, for their thoughts and He evaluated them, just as a sola scripturist would.



Your reliance upon hearsay is not parsimonous. Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.

 


Why do you refer to Tradition as hearsay?  You have a mis-conception of how Tradition is learned and preserved,it is not passed on by "hearsay" as though it is whispered in the ear ,from one man to another,it is openly declared before ALL!!!  IT is doctrine that is LIVED OUT and EXPERIENCED,not a textbook science. Why don't you put away your Academic pursuit of God,and experience Tradition for yourself,and get rid of your delusions of grandeur.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 07:22:06 PM by DennyB »

Offline Thankful

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 263
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #862 on: October 10, 2010, 09:15:59 PM »
If reliance on the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of the words, guarantees a proper understanding of God's Word, how come Protestantism is divided into such a myriad of warring factions over their different and sometimes contradictory interpretations of "God's Word"?

This is so right-on.  It's like the speaking in tongues issue earlier that Alfred said (according to his interpretation) was not for today.  And yet there are puh-lenty of protestant people who will say that tongues certainly are active today, and show you lots of Scriptures to "prove" it.  It just depends on interpretation.  Other issues this is true of include head covering, infant baptism, home church vs. church-building church, health and wealth doctrines, etc.  Both sides of each of these arguments can show their scriptures showing why their side is right.  And denominations are evidence of this -- if a group of people didn't/don't agree with a doctrine, they could (and do) go out and start a new denomination (or non-denomination).

I got SO weary of trying to figure out on my own every little detail about these things.  I finally asked myself, "It's been 2000 years, hasn't this been figured out yet?  I can't believe the Scriptures are that confusing."  What a relief to learn that there was another way -- that the church (not the Scripture) is the "pillar and ground of truth" and that, yes, these things HAVE been figured out and we don't have to spend our lives trying to determine on our own what the Scriptures are saying.  We can move, instead, to a living/breathing faith where the Scriptures are part of our worship (instead of just an object to study), and where worship involves the whole person and not just our minds.  I'm so .... thankful

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #863 on: October 10, 2010, 09:43:41 PM »
If reliance on the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of the words, guarantees a proper understanding of God's Word, how come Protestantism is divided into such a myriad of warring factions over their different and sometimes contradictory interpretations of "God's Word"?

This is so right-on.  It's like the speaking in tongues issue earlier that Alfred said (according to his interpretation) was not for today.  And yet there are puh-lenty of protestant people who will say that tongues certainly are active today, and show you lots of Scriptures to "prove" it.  It just depends on interpretation.  Other issues this is true of include head covering, infant baptism, home church vs. church-building church, health and wealth doctrines, etc.  Both sides of each of these arguments can show their scriptures showing why their side is right.  And denominations are evidence of this -- if a group of people didn't/don't agree with a doctrine, they could (and do) go out and start a new denomination (or non-denomination).

I got SO weary of trying to figure out on my own every little detail about these things.  I finally asked myself, "It's been 2000 years, hasn't this been figured out yet?  I can't believe the Scriptures are that confusing."  What a relief to learn that there was another way -- that the church (not the Scripture) is the "pillar and ground of truth" and that, yes, these things HAVE been figured out and we don't have to spend our lives trying to determine on our own what the Scriptures are saying.  We can move, instead, to a living/breathing faith where the Scriptures are part of our worship (instead of just an object to study), and where worship involves the whole person and not just our minds.  I'm so .... thankful

If the Orthodox had it figured out, they would have published a Bible with commentary explaining it all.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Thankful

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 263
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #864 on: October 10, 2010, 09:55:12 PM »

If the Orthodox had it figured out, they would have published a Bible with commentary explaining it all.


In your opinion, Alfred.  It's your opinion that whatever God did/is doing in the Church has to be written down in one comprehensive text.  The Orthodox just don't seem to share your opinion and you have yet to convince us your opinion is the right one.  We, on the other hand, don't feel the need to limit God to words within the pages of a book. Instead, and in addition to there being plenty of things to read (including the Scriptures the Orthodox Church gave you), there's also the life of the church to live, there are prayers to pray, there's the festal yearly cycle to participate in, there are fasts to partake of, there the sacraments to receive, there are the lives of the saints to honor, there are candles to light, there's incense to burn. We LOVE God's written Scriptures (and if you'd attend a service as has been suggested, you'd see that; we stand when it's read, the vast majority of our services are Scriptures, and we kiss the Gospel book in reverence), but we don't limit God to that.  Please try to understand that that's where we're coming from, whether you agree with it or not.  Even if you don't agree with it, you could at least say, "Okay, I see where you're coming from."  

"We have everything in the Orthodox Church that we need for divine life in this world, whoever our bishops, priests and people are, and whatever their behavior may be. We have God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, His Only Son, and the Holy Spirit. We have the Scriptures, the Sacraments, the Liturgical Services, and the lives, teachings and prayers of the Saints. And we have each other. We don’t need anything else." {Fr. Thomas Hopko}

« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 10:00:10 PM by Thankful »

Offline Thankful

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 263
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #865 on: October 10, 2010, 10:04:11 PM »
Please try to understand that that's where we're coming from, whether you agree with it or not.  Even if you don't agree with it, you could at least say, "Okay, I see where you're coming from."  

By the way, I'd like to grant you the same respect -- I understand your need to evangelize such as you are.  I understand that you think you need to get as many "saved" as you can (i.e., by witnessing, of course I know you know it's God that does the actual saving).  I understand that you're looking for any opportunity to share what you believe is God's truth to the world/unsaved/misguided Christians. Etc.  And I do respect that. 

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #866 on: October 10, 2010, 10:44:03 PM »
If reliance on the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of the words, guarantees a proper understanding of God's Word, how come Protestantism is divided into such a myriad of warring factions over their different and sometimes contradictory interpretations of "God's Word"?

This is so right-on.  It's like the speaking in tongues issue earlier that Alfred said (according to his interpretation) was not for today.  And yet there are puh-lenty of protestant people who will say that tongues certainly are active today, and show you lots of Scriptures to "prove" it.  It just depends on interpretation.  Other issues this is true of include head covering, infant baptism, home church vs. church-building church, health and wealth doctrines, etc.  Both sides of each of these arguments can show their scriptures showing why their side is right.  And denominations are evidence of this -- if a group of people didn't/don't agree with a doctrine, they could (and do) go out and start a new denomination (or non-denomination).

I got SO weary of trying to figure out on my own every little detail about these things.  I finally asked myself, "It's been 2000 years, hasn't this been figured out yet?  I can't believe the Scriptures are that confusing."  What a relief to learn that there was another way -- that the church (not the Scripture) is the "pillar and ground of truth" and that, yes, these things HAVE been figured out and we don't have to spend our lives trying to determine on our own what the Scriptures are saying.  We can move, instead, to a living/breathing faith where the Scriptures are part of our worship (instead of just an object to study), and where worship involves the whole person and not just our minds.  I'm so .... thankful

If the Orthodox had it figured out, they would have published a Bible with commentary explaining it all.


Here's your commentary. http://ecmarsh.com/fathers/index.html [sarcasm]So sorry that we Orthodox couldn't put all in one place for you, but, you know, we figured people would still revere and seek out the knowledge the "commentators" gave us 2,000 years later... guess we were wrong about something...[/sarcasm]
OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline bogdan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #867 on: October 11, 2010, 12:11:17 AM »
If reliance on the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of the words, guarantees a proper understanding of God's Word, how come Protestantism is divided into such a myriad of warring factions over their different and sometimes contradictory interpretations of "God's Word"?

This is so right-on.  It's like the speaking in tongues issue earlier that Alfred said (according to his interpretation) was not for today.  And yet there are puh-lenty of protestant people who will say that tongues certainly are active today, and show you lots of Scriptures to "prove" it.  It just depends on interpretation.  Other issues this is true of include head covering, infant baptism, home church vs. church-building church, health and wealth doctrines, etc.  Both sides of each of these arguments can show their scriptures showing why their side is right.  And denominations are evidence of this -- if a group of people didn't/don't agree with a doctrine, they could (and do) go out and start a new denomination (or non-denomination).

I got SO weary of trying to figure out on my own every little detail about these things.  I finally asked myself, "It's been 2000 years, hasn't this been figured out yet?  I can't believe the Scriptures are that confusing."  What a relief to learn that there was another way -- that the church (not the Scripture) is the "pillar and ground of truth" and that, yes, these things HAVE been figured out and we don't have to spend our lives trying to determine on our own what the Scriptures are saying.  We can move, instead, to a living/breathing faith where the Scriptures are part of our worship (instead of just an object to study), and where worship involves the whole person and not just our minds.  I'm so .... thankful

If the Orthodox had it figured out, they would have published a Bible with commentary explaining it all.


Why? I mean, as dcommini points out, there is all kinds of commentary material available, but that is not what Christianity is all about. It's about living our lives in Christ, according to Holy Tradition, which is the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church. It's all about bringing our lives into sync with God's life. We don't do that by endless research and thinking about it, we do it by doing it.

The Christian life is like a dance. You can read about dancing and reconstruct the history of dancing, and it may help you in theory, but that does not make you a dancer. You can fantasize about dancing with that pretty girl, but it profits you nothing. Go and ask her to dance. That is what Orthodoxy does. We go out and dance even if we don't really know how, because there are teachers out there to help us (the clergy, saints, and other holy people). And the sacraments, the pictures I posted earlier, are some of the dances we do.

But until you put the books down and go dance, you won't know how when the Wedding Ball comes. What if you, in your inexperience, misinterpreted your dancing books? You wouldn't know unless you tried to dance. And you haven't tried, because you have not been chrismated, which is the first dance every Orthodox "dancer" does. But you're welcome to come and change that.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 12:39:28 AM by bogdan »

Offline Thankful

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 263
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #868 on: October 11, 2010, 12:28:22 AM »

If the Orthodox had it figured out, they would have published a Bible with commentary explaining it all.


Why? I mean, as dcommini points out, there is all kinds of commentary material available, but that is not what Christianity is all about. It's about living our lives in Christ, according to Holy Tradition, which is the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church. It's all about bringing our lives into sync with God's life. We don't do that by endless research and thinking about it, we do it by doing it.

The Christian life is like a dance. You can read about dancing and reconstruct the history of dancing, and it may help you in theory, but that does not make you a dancer. You can fantasize about dancing with that pretty girl, but it profits you nothing. Go and ask her to dance. That is what Orthodoxy does. We go out and dance even if we don't really know how, because there are teachers out there to help us (the clergy, saints, and other holy people). And the sacraments, the pictures I posted earlier, are some of the dances we do.

But until you put the books down and go dance, you won't know how when the Wedding Ball comes. What if you, in your inexperience, misinterpreted your dancing books? You wouldn't know unless you tried to dance. And you haven't tried, because you have not been chrismated. But you're welcome to come and change that.

Thank you for that beautiful analogy.   

Offline bogdan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #869 on: October 11, 2010, 12:41:46 AM »
You're welcome. I can't claim it as my own; I got it from Matthew Gallatin. It is a very fitting analogy.

Offline Thankful

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 263
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #870 on: October 11, 2010, 12:56:03 AM »
You're welcome. I can't claim it as my own; I got it from Matthew Gallatin. It is a very fitting analogy.

Ah, then I might ought to have recognized it.  :)  Reading Gallatin's book, Thirsting for God in a Land of Shallow Wells, was a major turning point for our family in regard to our conversion.  We had been looking into Orthodoxy for about 3-4 months, had attended one service (a Christmas Eve vigil in the middle of a huge snowstorm), and took this book with us on a daytrip to the Seattle area one day.  We read the entire thing out loud over the course of the day, so our kids -- seven of them -- could hear it too, and by the end of the day we pretty much knew we were going to pursue the holy Orthodox faith (or, that Christ, through His Church, was pursuing us?). I'm still so humbled and, I know keep saying it, but it's true, thankful

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #871 on: October 11, 2010, 10:24:04 AM »
Your traditions will fail the test, but Sola Scriptura will pass, for it shines God's light in the dark place, it makes visible the obscure, by relying upon the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of God's Holy Word, and His Word is always true.
BTW, Alfred, it just came to me.

Proof that the doctrine of sola scriptura is one of the most vile heresies ever invented: the evil fruit of Protestant sectarianism. If reliance on the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of the words, guarantees a proper understanding of God's Word, how come Protestantism is divided into such a myriad of warring factions over their different and sometimes contradictory interpretations of "God's Word"?

"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me."  - John 17:20-23

For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.  - 1 Corinthians 14:33

Your sola scriptura camp seems pretty confused to me, Alfred. If sola scriptura is of God, how come it bears such rotten fruit?

You should always distrust what "pops up" into mind, it could be a telepathic suggestion by a devil (Luk 8:12; 1 Cor 12:2 cp Jas 1:13) misdirecting your attention from the truth.

 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Luk 8:12 KJV)

 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. (1Co 12:2 KJV)

 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
 (Jam 1:13-15 KJV)


You are not blaming sola scriptura, you are blaming the God who wrote scripture.

The Bible is not the cause of man's evil, God did not write scripture to create schisms and cults. The devil lies to you, don't be fooled.

Men are carried away into idolatry and sectarianism by the telepathic suggestions of devils, not the Bible:

KJV  1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1Ti 4:1 KJV)


And these evil spirits are aided and abetted by man's fallen heart, which tends to evil.


If "Tradition" were the cure for this,  then one must ask "whose tradition," that of the sectarians and cultists you point out exist, or yours. You don't even have yours itemized for me to read.

Moreover the sectarian and cults you refer to, are not sola scripturaists. Sola scripturaist churches exhibit  a miraculous level of agreement as to what scripture teaches, well over 95% and much of the 5% disagreement is in how to quantify, which idea to give the greater weight or they are in apostasy.

Two examples: One might agree the NT church did xyz, but insist that is related to culture and not applicable today. Women wearing head covering for example. Both churches agree its taught, but disagree on the application. That is a matter of personal judgment, not interpretation.

Apostates may fully agree scripture declares homosexuality (and heterosexual fornication and adultery) sinful, but they don't care.

Citing evil among Christians to blaspheme God's Word is a favorite Satanic argument against Christianity.

Beware of the "ideas" that "just pop up" into the mind, they sometimes are not good.


As for "that they may all be one", if that meant "all thinking alike," you should be a cultist, not Orthodox. Jehovah's Witnesses come to mind, they actually quote that verse and point out, among all the churches in Christendom, THEY alone have everyone thinking alike.

 You folks disagree with each other on so much, you can hardly make a commentary on scripture that you all agree with.

Rather your agreement is analogous to Roman Catholics, who have a common Pope, but actually disagree on just about everything else.

Sola Scripture is a principle one follows to arrive at truth. Its elementary it must be correct.
Truth is conformity to fact.
The Bible is truth.
Therefore an interpretation that is true (conforms to) to the Bible will be truth.

Unlike your reliance upon a set tradition, which essentially is hearsay, a sola scripturaist consults ALL available information, which may include your tradition, to see what the possibilities are. He then makes his decision based on what conforms to the grammar and syntax of the scripture, best.

That this method is sound, is proved by Christ:

 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. (Luk 2:46 KJV)

Christ asked the Jewish teachers of His day, for their thoughts and He evaluated them, just as a sola scripturist would.



Your reliance upon hearsay is not parsimonous. Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.

 


Why do you refer to Tradition as hearsay?  You have a mis-conception of how Tradition is learned and preserved,it is not passed on by "hearsay" as though it is whispered in the ear ,from one man to another,it is openly declared before ALL!!!  IT is doctrine that is LIVED OUT and EXPERIENCED,not a textbook science. Why don't you put away your Academic pursuit of God,and experience Tradition for yourself,and get rid of your delusions of grandeur.

 hear·say (hîr“s³”) n. 1. Information heard from another. 2. Law. Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.-American Heritage Dictionary

What isn't exegesis is hearsay, and precious little of that is in Polycarp. The fathers are not the apostles, their reports of what the apostles did is from hearing what others said about them, hence hearsay.

Its irrelevant you adopt this hearsay as tradition, and live according to it. That does not change the nature of the father's hearsay reports about apostolic acts and beliefs.

The scriptures alone witness directly what the apostles believed, and did, because God is the witness, through the Bible writer and often the Bible writer himself saw it also.

You wouldn't like it if your beliefs were known via the reports of others, because they would get it wrong. You get the Bible wrong when learn its teachings through the reports of others.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 10:28:09 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #872 on: October 11, 2010, 10:30:36 AM »
If reliance on the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of the words, guarantees a proper understanding of God's Word, how come Protestantism is divided into such a myriad of warring factions over their different and sometimes contradictory interpretations of "God's Word"?

This is so right-on.  It's like the speaking in tongues issue earlier that Alfred said (according to his interpretation) was not for today.  And yet there are puh-lenty of protestant people who will say that tongues certainly are active today, and show you lots of Scriptures to "prove" it.  It just depends on interpretation.  Other issues this is true of include head covering, infant baptism, home church vs. church-building church, health and wealth doctrines, etc.  Both sides of each of these arguments can show their scriptures showing why their side is right.  And denominations are evidence of this -- if a group of people didn't/don't agree with a doctrine, they could (and do) go out and start a new denomination (or non-denomination).

I got SO weary of trying to figure out on my own every little detail about these things.  I finally asked myself, "It's been 2000 years, hasn't this been figured out yet?  I can't believe the Scriptures are that confusing."  What a relief to learn that there was another way -- that the church (not the Scripture) is the "pillar and ground of truth" and that, yes, these things HAVE been figured out and we don't have to spend our lives trying to determine on our own what the Scriptures are saying.  We can move, instead, to a living/breathing faith where the Scriptures are part of our worship (instead of just an object to study), and where worship involves the whole person and not just our minds.  I'm so .... thankful

So you blame God for not writing clear enough? Is He the author of this confusion?

Can He really be the Supreme Being given His inability to write clearly and stop sectarianism?

Aren't you superior to God...you can write clearly, something He seems unable to do?


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #873 on: October 11, 2010, 11:00:01 AM »
If reliance on the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of the words, guarantees a proper understanding of God's Word, how come Protestantism is divided into such a myriad of warring factions over their different and sometimes contradictory interpretations of "God's Word"?

This is so right-on.  It's like the speaking in tongues issue earlier that Alfred said (according to his interpretation) was not for today.  And yet there are puh-lenty of protestant people who will say that tongues certainly are active today, and show you lots of Scriptures to "prove" it.  It just depends on interpretation.  Other issues this is true of include head covering, infant baptism, home church vs. church-building church, health and wealth doctrines, etc.  Both sides of each of these arguments can show their scriptures showing why their side is right.  And denominations are evidence of this -- if a group of people didn't/don't agree with a doctrine, they could (and do) go out and start a new denomination (or non-denomination).

I got SO weary of trying to figure out on my own every little detail about these things.  I finally asked myself, "It's been 2000 years, hasn't this been figured out yet?  I can't believe the Scriptures are that confusing."  What a relief to learn that there was another way -- that the church (not the Scripture) is the "pillar and ground of truth" and that, yes, these things HAVE been figured out and we don't have to spend our lives trying to determine on our own what the Scriptures are saying.  We can move, instead, to a living/breathing faith where the Scriptures are part of our worship (instead of just an object to study), and where worship involves the whole person and not just our minds.  I'm so .... thankful

So you blame God for not writing clear enough? Is He the author of this confusion?

Can He really be the Supreme Being given His inability to write clearly and stop sectarianism?

Aren't you superior to God...you can write clearly, something He seems unable to do?




Alfred, you very obviously miss the point made. It is that the Protestant denominations are confused because they use Sola Scriptura. They have no Tradition in interpreting scriptures correctly so every one is left to his own interpretation, which is always going to be at odds with anybody else's interpretation; this is evidenced by the +20,000 Protestant denominations.

Remember, the infinite God did not write the Scripture Himself, rather finite man wrote the Scriptures, and our finite minds can not always portray correctly the infinite. That is why we need the Traditions handed down to us from the Apostles. The Apostles taught the Fathers how to interpret Scripture, the Fathers teach us how to interpret Scripture. Because of this we will always stand as the Church, and left to our own devices a different interpretation of Scripture would (and does via those outside of Tradition) arise every day.

It is not God's inability to write clearly and stop sectarinaism, rather man's inability to follow God's Word, even when they are given the proper tools to do so (i.e. Protestants not using the Tradition used by the Church for over a 1,000 years before they came along, and even to not follow the traditions set up by their own Protestant fathers).

God only seems to be unable to write clearly to our finite minds when we are left to our own devices and interpretations with out any ground to stand on. It is only through the Traditions that we have that the Scripture become crystal clear (and shows how truly inferior we are to God that we should need help interpreting His statutes), as opposed to the murky waters the Protestants would have us wade through... (reminds me of a joke where a drunk man stumbles across a preacher doing river baptism; the preacher grabs the man and dunks him under, as the preacher brings the man back up he asks the drunk, "Have you found Jesus?"
"No, sir," was the reply. So the preacher dunks the drunk again.
"Have you found Jesus?" the preacher asks again.
"No, sir" the drunk replied again before being dunked once more.
"Have you found Jesus?" asks the pastor one more time.
The drunk replies, "Sir, are you sure this is where he fell in?")
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 11:12:21 AM by dcommini »
OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #874 on: October 11, 2010, 11:38:17 AM »
If reliance on the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of the words, guarantees a proper understanding of God's Word, how come Protestantism is divided into such a myriad of warring factions over their different and sometimes contradictory interpretations of "God's Word"?

This is so right-on.  It's like the speaking in tongues issue earlier that Alfred said (according to his interpretation) was not for today.  And yet there are puh-lenty of protestant people who will say that tongues certainly are active today, and show you lots of Scriptures to "prove" it.  It just depends on interpretation.  Other issues this is true of include head covering, infant baptism, home church vs. church-building church, health and wealth doctrines, etc.  Both sides of each of these arguments can show their scriptures showing why their side is right.  And denominations are evidence of this -- if a group of people didn't/don't agree with a doctrine, they could (and do) go out and start a new denomination (or non-denomination).

I got SO weary of trying to figure out on my own every little detail about these things.  I finally asked myself, "It's been 2000 years, hasn't this been figured out yet?  I can't believe the Scriptures are that confusing."  What a relief to learn that there was another way -- that the church (not the Scripture) is the "pillar and ground of truth" and that, yes, these things HAVE been figured out and we don't have to spend our lives trying to determine on our own what the Scriptures are saying.  We can move, instead, to a living/breathing faith where the Scriptures are part of our worship (instead of just an object to study), and where worship involves the whole person and not just our minds.  I'm so .... thankful.  

So you blame God for not writing clear enough? Is He the author of this confusion?

Can He really be the Supreme Being given His inability to write clearly and stop sectarianism?

Aren't you superior to God...you can write clearly, something He seems unable to do?




Alfred, you very obviously miss the point made. It is that the Protestant denominations are confused because they use Sola Scriptura.
...snip

Sola scriptura is not doctrine, its simply means one is reading the Bible for doctrine.

When you point to sects and cults, and point to reading the bible as the cause, you are blaspheming God as the author of confusion.

If you believe apostolic doctrine, then you know the Bible is NOT the cause of religious confusion, fallen nature is, both angelic and human.

KJV  James 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
 4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
 5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
 (Jam 4:1-5 KJV)

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1Co 3:3 KJV)

Men cause divisions, not God:
 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (Rom 16:17 KJV)

You cannot blame sola scriptura, that in an by itself does not teach, it simply means one is reading their Bible. So if you say reading the Bible is the cause of evil, then you blaspheme its writer as the author of evil.

AND its absurd to think your tradition is the solution to this, Rome and the East schism ed long ago, and both generate satellite cults every generation.

There are dozens of "real Catholic churches" out there, following tradition, not scripture, all claiming its YOU folks who are the apostates.

PEOPLE and demons cause divisions, not God. Its time you stop diminishing His Word because of our failings.

Finally, if tradition were so necessary to interpreting God's Word, then He never would have said:

 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 KJV)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 11:52:09 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #875 on: October 11, 2010, 11:50:00 AM »
If reliance on the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of the words, guarantees a proper understanding of God's Word, how come Protestantism is divided into such a myriad of warring factions over their different and sometimes contradictory interpretations of "God's Word"?

This is so right-on.  It's like the speaking in tongues issue earlier that Alfred said (according to his interpretation) was not for today.  And yet there are puh-lenty of protestant people who will say that tongues certainly are active today, and show you lots of Scriptures to "prove" it.  It just depends on interpretation.  Other issues this is true of include head covering, infant baptism, home church vs. church-building church, health and wealth doctrines, etc.  Both sides of each of these arguments can show their scriptures showing why their side is right.  And denominations are evidence of this -- if a group of people didn't/don't agree with a doctrine, they could (and do) go out and start a new denomination (or non-denomination).

I got SO weary of trying to figure out on my own every little detail about these things.  I finally asked myself, "It's been 2000 years, hasn't this been figured out yet?  I can't believe the Scriptures are that confusing."  What a relief to learn that there was another way -- that the church (not the Scripture) is the "pillar and ground of truth" and that, yes, these things HAVE been figured out and we don't have to spend our lives trying to determine on our own what the Scriptures are saying.  We can move, instead, to a living/breathing faith where the Scriptures are part of our worship (instead of just an object to study), and where worship involves the whole person and not just our minds.  I'm so .... thankful

So you blame God for not writing clear enough? Is He the author of this confusion?

Can He really be the Supreme Being given His inability to write clearly and stop sectarianism?

Aren't you superior to God...you can write clearly, something He seems unable to do?




Alfred, you very obviously miss the point made. It is that the Protestant denominations are confused because they use Sola Scriptura.
...snip

Sola scriptura is not doctrine, its simply means one is reading the Bible for doctrine.

When you point to sects and cults, and point to reading the bible as the cause, you are blaspheming God as the author of confusion.

If you believe apostolic doctrine, then you know the Bible is NOT the cause of religious confusion, fallen nature is, both angelic and human.

KJV  James 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
 2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
 4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
 5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
 (Jam 4:1-5 KJV)

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1Co 3:3 KJV)

Men cause divisions, not God:
 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (Rom 16:17 KJV)

You cannot blame sola scriptura, that in an by itself does not teach, it simply means one is reading their Bible. So if you say reading the Bible is the cause of evil, then you blaspheme its writer as the author of evil.



Again, you miss the point made. I am not blaming God for sowing confusion. I am blaming man for sowing confusion by relying on his own mind and intellect. That man causes division is what I am trying to get across to you. A point you seem so ready to make to others, but when it is pointed out to you, you seem to be ignorant of the fact and think we are blaming God. This seems to me to be a reverse of placing the blame. We say it is man's fault and you say we are blaming God. Man has caused division by Sola Scriptura. Because man assumes that he has the ability to interpret Scriptures as he sees fit it causes divisions among man's interpretations. Man must interpret Scripture as God intended for there to be unity. Because of Protestants foolishness there are now over 20,000 different Protestant groups all claiming to have the "proper" interpretation of Scripture and all not agreeing with each other. This is why we need the Traditions that have been handed down to us, from Jesus, to the Apostles, to the Fathers, to us!

Quote
"[T]here is a degree of depravity in mankind which requires a certain degree of circumspection and distrust."
--James Madison

I believe that quote sums it up quite nicely. Man, when left to his own devices, will sow corruption and confusion; that is why we need Jesus, the Church and Tradition to ease the sorrows that we bring upon ourselves.
OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #876 on: October 11, 2010, 12:12:35 PM »

Again, you miss the point made. I am not blaming God for sowing confusion. I am blaming man for sowing confusion by relying on his own mind and intellect....

AND you miss the simple fact God ruled out adding tradition to His word:

 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 KJV)

Therefore man's inability to understand His Word without Tradition is God's fault...

Moreover, you are superior to God...no tradition is required for me to read your words with understanding.

IN fact, school children across the land do every day, what God evidently could not, communicate by writing without a body of tradition.


So you are blaming God when you blame reading the Bible.

As for Madison, its clear from his quote, he blames men, not the Bible.

AND you deny reality...sola scripturaist have a higher level of agreement as to what scripture says, than you traditionalists do...

You folks can't even agree on a commentary that details what Scripture says.

You point to the fathers...what good is that when you don't heed them, the vast majority of them believed in Christ's millennial kingdom, so you pick and choose what you like in the fathers...evidently that's why you don't author an "approved commentary detailing what the fathers taught" lest you have to teach the same.


Its as though you folks are "pathological", totally misrepresenting what you do as everyone thinking alike, when its obvious to everyone that is precisely what you  don't do.

Then you justify your disorder and dissension, by citing cults and non sola scripturaists, and apostates, as proof you are more unified than those who read the Bible alone...the hubris is incredible.

The next time you blame reading the Bible for evil, recall what is written:

 15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
 16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
 (Mar 7:15-16 KJV)

« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 12:27:56 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #877 on: October 11, 2010, 12:59:08 PM »

Again, you miss the point made. I am not blaming God for sowing confusion. I am blaming man for sowing confusion by relying on his own mind and intellect....

AND you miss the simple fact God ruled out adding tradition to His word:

 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 KJV)

Therefore man's inability to understand His Word without Tradition is God's fault...

Moreover, you are superior to God...no tradition is required for me to read your words with understanding.

IN fact, school children across the land do every day, what God evidently could not, communicate by writing without a body of tradition.


So you are blaming God when you blame reading the Bible.

As for Madison, its clear from his quote, he blames men, not the Bible.

AND you deny reality...sola scripturaist have a higher level of agreement as to what scripture says, than you traditionalists do...

You folks can't even agree on a commentary that details what Scripture says.

You point to the fathers...what good is that when you don't heed them, the vast majority of them believed in Christ's millennial kingdom, so you pick and choose what you like in the fathers...evidently that's why you don't author an "approved commentary detailing what the fathers taught" lest you have to teach the same.


Its as though you folks are "pathological", totally misrepresenting what you do as everyone thinking alike, when its obvious to everyone that is precisely what you  don't do.

Then you justify your disorder and dissension, by citing cults and non sola scripturaists, and apostates, as proof you are more unified than those who read the Bible alone...incredible.

Again, I have not blamed God for anything, you seek heresy where there is none! I have only blamed man and his finite mind. I did not blame reading the Bible, I blamed man for making misguided interpretations. God did not rule out adding Tradition to His Word when much of His Word is Tradition!

As to Sola Scripturist having a higher agreement than those of us who use Tradition; what bologna! Yes, that must be true! That is why there are over 20,000 Protestant groups, each with their own interpretation of the Bible as opposed to how many divisions in the Orthodox Church? And the commentary issue! Show me one commentary that is used universally by ALL Protestant organizations! We don't need an approved commentary detailing what the Fathers taught, when we have what the Fathers taught readily available to us, also we know what scripture says because of the Traditions taught to us. Protestant commentaries do not rid you of tradition as those commentators have been taught another tradition of interpreting Scripture: Sola Scriptura - that is why there are so many different commentaries all teaching different things.

In the Orthodox Church we do not settle for 50, 80, or even 90% of the truth, we settle for the whole 100% truth - "close enough" is not good enough. There is so much more to understanding what is written in the Bible than you can get from just reading the Bible by itself (perhaps this is why Protestants are so big on commentaries).

You do not need any kind of tradition to read my words since my words are those of men. We both have finite minds, and thus should be able to understand what each other is saying with out any outside influences. BUT, God is infinite, we can not fully understand Him (His way not our ways, nor His thoughts our thoughts). To assume that we, men with finite minds, can understand God fully with out help is to make ourselves to being above God. It is only when we realize that we can not interpret God's Word by ourselves that we humble ourselves before His very presence is reverence and awe of His superiority over us lowly creatures. The Traditions we received from Christ, to the Apostles, to the Fathers and to us is the help we needed. God knew we needed help, so He gave it to us.

School children may very well be able to read the Bible by themselves, but this does not mean that they fully understand and comprehend what they are reading. In a Christian school the children are taught by teachers what the Bible says, they are taught that specific denomination's interpretations; I know this as I attended very many different Christian schools as I grew up. So even if the child has his or her own interpretation, the church or school to which they belong will teach them yet another interpretation. This leads them to believe that the Scriptures can not be fully understood ever (and they denounce Christianity), or to be open to interpretation and then you have groups like those Baptist from Westoboro. Or even some cults, Christian Scientist,or even worse... Southern Baptist! Did these groups become like they are because they read the Bible? No, they are like they are because they read the Bible and came to their own interpretations (read with out Tradition) - they show how badly men can mess up with out God and the Church guiding them.

(Southern Baptist really are no worse than cults, I was just kidding about that part, but I was raised Southern Baptist and the tendency to joke about them still comes out from those days of my misspent youth as a Protestant).
OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline Marc1152

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 14,838
  • Probiotic .. Antibiotic
  • Jurisdiction: Rocor
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #878 on: October 11, 2010, 02:20:16 PM »
Here's the thing :)  In reality, there is no such thing as Sola Scriptura. All Scripture is read through the lens of the experience of the Christian Community reading it. There are never two separate categories of 1. Scripture and 2. Tradition, it's impossible.

Let's take a hypothetical example. During a Bible Study session of a group Alfred agrees with, a person deduces that there is no Trinity but just a single person/God in the manner of the Jewish understanding or perhaps Jehovah Witness and others. He makes his argument based on Scripture. The group counters with their scriptural understanding but to no avail. They then call the Pastor and he confirms that in the ABC Community of Christianity, they hold the identity of God in Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit.

The dissenting person either cedes his position or leaves the group.. along with five others and starts the DEF Christian Community :).

The same can be  said for practical matters or even  forms of worship. The Pastor wears a suit or not. Everyone meets every Wednesday for Bible Study. The sermon comes after an hour of singing hymns or maybe there is no singing at all.

That is all Tradition is.

Also, for the Orthodox, Tradition  is not just a collection of writings outside the Cannon of Scripture.

Tradition is not the Scriptures.. plus.. writings of the Fathers.  

The Church is actually informed by a list of things that forms it's total experience. We are certainly informed by the Scriptures and what the Fathers have said about them. But we are also informed by what is in the Liturgy and our prayers. We are informed by the Councils of the Church ( which by the way deduced the Truth of the Holy Trinity). We are informed by Icons and Church Architecture and we are informed by our history, such as the experience of the New Martyrs of Russia for one example. Tradition is our total experience. That is why it seems a bit elusive to Brother Alfred.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 02:28:00 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #879 on: October 11, 2010, 02:28:22 PM »
Your traditions will fail the test, but Sola Scriptura will pass, for it shines God's light in the dark place, it makes visible the obscure, by relying upon the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of God's Holy Word, and His Word is always true.
BTW, Alfred, it just came to me.

Proof that the doctrine of sola scriptura is one of the most vile heresies ever invented: the evil fruit of Protestant sectarianism. If reliance on the details of the text, upon the natural meaning of the words, guarantees a proper understanding of God's Word, how come Protestantism is divided into such a myriad of warring factions over their different and sometimes contradictory interpretations of "God's Word"?

"I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me."  - John 17:20-23

For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.  - 1 Corinthians 14:33

Your sola scriptura camp seems pretty confused to me, Alfred. If sola scriptura is of God, how come it bears such rotten fruit?

You should always distrust what "pops up" into mind, it could be a telepathic suggestion by a devil (Luk 8:12; 1 Cor 12:2 cp Jas 1:13) misdirecting your attention from the truth.
What I said didn't just pop into my mind as if I had never thought it before; rather, it's what I've always believed about sola scriptura since I investigated the doctrine for myself 14 years ago. My research on sola scriptura is what drove me out of the Protestant sects and toward Holy Orthodoxy.

You are not blaming sola scriptura, you are blaming the God who wrote scripture.
No, I'm blaming the man-made doctrine of sola scriptura, and no amount of you putting words into my mouth is going to change that.

The Bible is not the cause of man's evil, God did not write scripture to create schisms and cults. The devil lies to you, don't be fooled.

Men are carried away into idolatry and sectarianism by the telepathic suggestions of devils, not the Bible:
I'm not saying the Bible caused any evil. I'm saying that the Protestant approach to understanding the Bible has caused great evil.

And these evil spirits are aided and abetted by man's fallen heart, which tends to evil.


If "Tradition" were the cure for this,  then one must ask "whose tradition," that of the sectarians and cultists you point out exist, or yours. You don't even have yours itemized for me to read.

Nor will we ever cast our pearls before swine who only wish to trample it underfoot and turn to attack us.

Moreover the sectarian and cults you refer to, are not sola scripturaists. Sola scripturaist churches exhibit  a miraculous level of agreement as to what scripture teaches, well over 95% and much of the 5% disagreement is in how to quantify, which idea to give the greater weight or they are in apostasy.
BS! I call your bluff. You're stacking the deck by calling only those churches who agree with you sola scriptura churches. You have to be to produce such numbers as that, since my experience tells me so much differently.

Two examples: One might agree the NT church did xyz, but insist that is related to culture and not applicable today. Women wearing head covering for example. Both churches agree its taught, but disagree on the application. That is a matter of personal judgment, not interpretation.

Apostates may fully agree scripture declares homosexuality (and heterosexual fornication and adultery) sinful, but they don't care.

Citing evil among Christians to blaspheme God's Word is a favorite Satanic argument against Christianity.
Some examples:

Lutherans believe that the Body and Blood of Christ are indeed present (in some way) in the bread and wine of Communion. Calvinists believe the Body and Blood of Christ are spiritually present in Communion. Those who follow after Zwingli believe that there's no connection whatsoever between the Body and Blood of Christ and the bread and wine of Communion, that the elements are symbol and nothing more--such will say that Catholic/Orthodox belief in the Real Presence is tantamount to cannibalism.

Calvinists believe in predestination and the perseverance of the saints, which has led some to develop the doctrine of "once saved, always saved". Wesleyan-Arminians, OTOH, believe in free will and that one can lose his salvation.

Pentecostals believe in the speaking of tongues as a necessary manifestation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in ones life while most other Protestants merely think them nutty.

Lutherans and Calvinists practice infant baptism, while Baptists and Anabaptists baptize only adults and older children upon confession of personal faith.

The [Campbellite] Churches of Christ teach baptismal regeneration, as do the Orthodox and Catholics, while many other Protestant denominations teach that baptism is merely an outward symbol of a regeneration that has already been accomplished inwardly.

These are all core doctrines on which you disagree, NOT peripherals as you so assert. If sola scripturists--from our perspective, all these sects are sola scripturists, since they all cite sola scriptura as one of their founding principles--cannot agree on such fundamentals as salvation and the sacraments, despite looking to the Scriptures alone for their doctrinal authority, what does this say about your doctrine of sola scriptura? It looks pretty ugly to me.

Beware of the "ideas" that "just pop up" into the mind, they sometimes are not good.


As for "that they may all be one", if that meant "all thinking alike," you should be a cultist, not Orthodox. Jehovah's Witnesses come to mind, they actually quote that verse and point out, among all the churches in Christendom, THEY alone have everyone thinking alike.
Again, you're putting words into my mouth, and you need to stop so you can listen to what I have to say.

You folks disagree with each other on so much, you can hardly make a commentary on scripture that you all agree with.
Yes, we do disagree with each other on a lot of issues. It's part of the human condition. But on such fundamentals as what we believe about salvation and the sacraments, you'll find that we're remarkably united.

Rather your agreement is analogous to Roman Catholics, who have a common Pope, but actually disagree on just about everything else.
Now I think you're being grossly unfair to Roman Catholics, who actually agree with each other (and with us, surprisingly) on most issues.

Sola Scripture is a principle one follows to arrive at truth. Its elementary it must be correct.
And yet you can't prove its correctness when you're pressed to do so. Asserting the correctness of sola scriptura doesn't prove its correctness.

Truth is conformity to fact.
The Bible is truth.
Therefore an interpretation that is true (conforms to) to the Bible will be truth.

Unlike your reliance upon a set tradition, which essentially is hearsay, a sola scripturaist consults ALL available information, which may include your tradition, to see what the possibilities are. He then makes his decision based on what conforms to the grammar and syntax of the scripture, best.

That this method is sound, is proved by Christ:

 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. (Luk 2:46 KJV)

Christ asked the Jewish teachers of His day, for their thoughts and He evaluated them, just as a sola scripturist would.

That's not sola scriptura. That's critical thinking, the same critical thinking that led me to reject sola scriptura.

Your reliance upon hearsay is not parsimonous. Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.
Your continued insistence on calling Tradition hearsay is proof that you know nothing about what Tradition is and that you continue to refuse to listen to us as we explain it to you.

"My mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 02:33:39 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #880 on: October 11, 2010, 02:43:34 PM »

Sola Scripture is a principle one follows to arrive at truth. Its elementary it must be correct.
Truth is conformity to fact.
The Bible is truth.
Therefore an interpretation that is true (conforms to) to the Bible will be truth.

Unlike your reliance upon a set tradition, which essentially is hearsay, a sola scripturaist consults ALL available information, which may include your tradition, to see what the possibilities are. He then makes his decision based on what conforms to the grammar and syntax of the scripture, best.

That this method is sound, is proved by Christ:

 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. (Luk 2:46 KJV)

Christ asked the Jewish teachers of His day, for their thoughts and He evaluated them, just as a sola scripturist would.



Your reliance upon hearsay is not parsimonous. Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.

 


You do realize, Alfred, that Sola Scriptura means "Only Scripture" or "Scripture Alone" don't you? A Sola Scripturist consults only the Scripture as his source for Biblical teachings, and makes his decisions based there in. If a Sola Scripturist were to consult Tradition and then read Scripture in it's proper context they would surely turn Orthodox (As has happened many a time as evidenced by myself, my brother, 95% of my current church's congregation, and a slew of others). Any extra Biblical teachings are shunned as heresy by Sola Scripturist, so there is no need to consult them in that mind set (I know, I used to be one).
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 02:44:39 PM by dcommini »
OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #881 on: October 11, 2010, 03:12:59 PM »
Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.
Parsimony, as in extreme economy or frugality, a characteristic of all correct interpretation? Who made up this rule? ???
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #882 on: October 11, 2010, 03:25:31 PM »
Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.
Parsimony, as in extreme economy or frugality, a characteristic of all correct interpretation? Who made up this rule? ???

Its common sense, but also an accepted maxim of science, parsimony is a characteristic of true interpretation.

For example, suppose we both observed a man rapidly descending outside our 10th floor window, and I "interpreted" he was flying to a better location, I violated parsimony.

Humans don't fly, human  bodies that stop suddenly when they impact concrete is not a better location for the person, to believe all that I must add "entities" to make it a true interpretation. That humans fly, and that rapidly coming to a stop impacting concrete is acceptable relocation.

Another illustration, we both observe a skater slip and fall on the ice. I interpret the reason is a cloaked Klingon warbird knocked him over. IN reply you say, "that's not parsimonous," rather he is an inexperienced skater, his lost his balance on slippery ice and fell.

I added the entity of a Klingon War Bird for my interpretation to be "true," your interpretation is "true" to the known facts, hence yours is correct, mine incorrect

Parsimonous is how rational people interpret reality...lack of parsimony characterizes nutcase interpretation.

Truth  is conformity to fact, a true interpretation conforms to the facts of the Bible, that is what parsimony means, conforming to fact.

The definition you looked up is just one, here is the correct one:

par·si·mo·ny (pär“s…-m½”n¶) n. 1. Unusual or excessive frugality; extreme economy or stinginess. 2. Adoption of the simplest assumption in the formulation of a theory or in the interpretation of data, especially in accordance with the rule of Ockham's razor. [Middle English parcimony, from Latin parsim½nia, from parsus, past participle of parcere, to spare.]


See Ockham's Razor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

True interpretation manifests specific characteristics. Just as logicians determined the form of logic that results in valid conclusions, so also exegetes have categorized the principles that resulted in correct interpretation of literature. Parsimony is a universal characteristic of correct interpretation....all correct interpretation is parsimonous.

Everytime an interpretation have proven to be wrong, it was also found to be non parsimonous.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 03:44:38 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #883 on: October 11, 2010, 03:43:26 PM »
Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.
Parsimony, as in extreme economy or frugality, a characteristic of all correct interpretation? Who made up this rule? ???

Its common sense, but also an accepted maxim of science, parsimony is a characteristic of true interpretation.

For example, suppose we both observed a man rapidly descending outside our 10th floor window, and I "interpreted" he was flying to a better location, I violated parsimony.

Humans don't fly, human  bodies that stop suddenly when they impact concrete is not a better location for the person, to believe all that I must add "entities" to make it a true interpretation. That humans fly, and that rapidly coming to a stop impacting concrete is acceptable relocation.

Another illustration, we both observe a skater slip and fall on the ice. I interpret the reason is a cloaked Klingon warbird knocked him over. IN reply you say, "that's not parsimonous," rather he is an inexperienced skater, his lost his balance on slippery ice and fell.

I added the entity of a Klingon War Bird for my interpretation to be "true," your interpretation is "true" to the known facts, hence yours is correct, mine incorrect

Parsimonous is how rational people interpret reality...lack of parsimony characterizes nutcase interpretation.

Truth  is conformity to fact, a true interpretation conforms to the facts of the Bible, that is what parsimony means, conforming to fact.

The definition you looked up is just one, here is the correct one:

par·si·mo·ny (pär“s…-m½”n¶) n. 1. Unusual or excessive frugality; extreme economy or stinginess. 2. Adoption of the simplest assumption in the formulation of a theory or in the interpretation of data, especially in accordance with the rule of Ockham's razor. [Middle English parcimony, from Latin parsim½nia, from parsus, past participle of parcere, to spare.]




Given that definition you have just destroyed any credibility for Sola Scriptura because what is empirically demonstrable is that no two Protestant churches interpret Scripture the same way (oft times even among the same denominations), therefore it can be said the Sola Scripturists lack any correct interpretation and are indeed violating parsimony as they cling to Sola Scriptura given the overwhelming evidence against them. Likewise those who realize that Sola Scriptura is false, given the many different "correct interpretations" it spawns, and move on to a Church that is not divided in dogma or Scripture interpretation would then, by your definition be parsimonious. This also seems to suggest that those who cling so desperately to Sola Scriptura are not rational people because the reality of the situation is 20,000 different groups all proclaiming 20,000 different "correct interpretations", none of which agree with each other vs one group that claims correct interpretation and has not changed that interpretation for 2,000 years. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out who the winner is here. 
OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #884 on: October 11, 2010, 03:46:29 PM »
Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.
Parsimony, as in extreme economy or frugality, a characteristic of all correct interpretation? Who made up this rule? ???

Its common sense, but also an accepted maxim of science, parsimony is a characteristic of true interpretation.

For example, suppose we both observed a man rapidly descending outside our 10th floor window, and I "interpreted" he was flying to a better location, I violated parsimony.

Humans don't fly, human  bodies that stop suddenly when they impact concrete is not a better location for the person, to believe all that I must add "entities" to make it a true interpretation. That humans fly, and that rapidly coming to a stop impacting concrete is acceptable relocation.

Another illustration, we both observe a skater slip and fall on the ice. I interpret the reason is a cloaked Klingon warbird knocked him over. IN reply you say, "that's not parsimonous," rather he is an inexperienced skater, his lost his balance on slippery ice and fell.

I added the entity of a Klingon War Bird for my interpretation to be "true," your interpretation is "true" to the known facts, hence yours is correct, mine incorrect

Parsimonous is how rational people interpret reality...lack of parsimony characterizes nutcase interpretation.

Truth  is conformity to fact, a true interpretation conforms to the facts of the Bible, that is what parsimony means, conforming to fact.

The definition you looked up is just one, here is the correct one:

par·si·mo·ny (pär“s…-m½”n¶) n. 1. Unusual or excessive frugality; extreme economy or stinginess. 2. Adoption of the simplest assumption in the formulation of a theory or in the interpretation of data, especially in accordance with the rule of Ockham's razor. [Middle English parcimony, from Latin parsim½nia, from parsus, past participle of parcere, to spare.]




Given that definition you have just destroyed any credibility for Sola Scriptura because what is empirically demonstrable is that no two Protestant churches interpret Scripture the same way (oft times even among the same denominations), therefore it can be said the Sola Scripturists lack any correct interpretation and are indeed violating parsimony as they cling to Sola Scriptura given the overwhelming evidence against them. Likewise those who realize that Sola Scriptura is false, given the many different "correct interpretations" it spawns, and move on to a Church that is not divided in dogma or Scripture interpretation would then, by your definition be parsimonious. This also seems to suggest that those who cling so desperately to Sola Scriptura are not rational people because the reality of the situation is 20,000 different groups all proclaiming 20,000 different "correct interpretations", none of which agree with each other vs one group that claims correct interpretation and has not changed that interpretation for 2,000 years. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out who the winner is here. 

Sola scripture means people read the Bible to learn the truth, not other literature.

If you insist reading the Bible leads to people being deceived, you are accusing God of misleading people as He wrote the Bible and is smart enough to know what happens to people when they read His writing.

So, is God the author of evil?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #885 on: October 11, 2010, 05:11:27 PM »
Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.
Parsimony, as in extreme economy or frugality, a characteristic of all correct interpretation? Who made up this rule? ???

Its common sense, but also an accepted maxim of science, parsimony is a characteristic of true interpretation.

For example, suppose we both observed a man rapidly descending outside our 10th floor window, and I "interpreted" he was flying to a better location, I violated parsimony.

Humans don't fly, human  bodies that stop suddenly when they impact concrete is not a better location for the person, to believe all that I must add "entities" to make it a true interpretation. That humans fly, and that rapidly coming to a stop impacting concrete is acceptable relocation.

Another illustration, we both observe a skater slip and fall on the ice. I interpret the reason is a cloaked Klingon warbird knocked him over. IN reply you say, "that's not parsimonous," rather he is an inexperienced skater, his lost his balance on slippery ice and fell.

I added the entity of a Klingon War Bird for my interpretation to be "true," your interpretation is "true" to the known facts, hence yours is correct, mine incorrect

Parsimonous is how rational people interpret reality...lack of parsimony characterizes nutcase interpretation.

Truth  is conformity to fact, a true interpretation conforms to the facts of the Bible, that is what parsimony means, conforming to fact.

The definition you looked up is just one, here is the correct one:

par·si·mo·ny (pär“s…-m½”n¶) n. 1. Unusual or excessive frugality; extreme economy or stinginess. 2. Adoption of the simplest assumption in the formulation of a theory or in the interpretation of data, especially in accordance with the rule of Ockham's razor. [Middle English parcimony, from Latin parsim½nia, from parsus, past participle of parcere, to spare.]




Given that definition you have just destroyed any credibility for Sola Scriptura because what is empirically demonstrable is that no two Protestant churches interpret Scripture the same way (oft times even among the same denominations), therefore it can be said the Sola Scripturists lack any correct interpretation and are indeed violating parsimony as they cling to Sola Scriptura given the overwhelming evidence against them. Likewise those who realize that Sola Scriptura is false, given the many different "correct interpretations" it spawns, and move on to a Church that is not divided in dogma or Scripture interpretation would then, by your definition be parsimonious. This also seems to suggest that those who cling so desperately to Sola Scriptura are not rational people because the reality of the situation is 20,000 different groups all proclaiming 20,000 different "correct interpretations", none of which agree with each other vs one group that claims correct interpretation and has not changed that interpretation for 2,000 years. It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out who the winner is here. 

Sola scripture means people read the Bible to learn the truth, not other literature.

If you insist reading the Bible leads to people being deceived, you are accusing God of misleading people as He wrote the Bible and is smart enough to know what happens to people when they read His writing.

So, is God the author of evil?

I do not insist that reading the Bible leads to people being deceived, I insist that man, left to his own devices when reading the Bible leads to people being deceived. I have said this time and again, yet still you do not understand. Some how you think that when I say man left to his own interpretation leads to folly that I am really saying God deceives people. Personally I think that you are so deceived that you see deception in everybody else. I have said time and again that people who read only the Bible can and do misinterpret what they read when they are left to their own devices; this is how you can get radical groups like the Westboro group, some cults (there is even some korean guy who proclaims that he is Christ and has a bunch of wives), and yes, even divisions among the Protestants. Is this God misleading people? NO! It is the blind leading the blind, simply and purely. What I do say is that having a Tradition, that was given to us by the Apostles, to help interpret Scripture does not lead to deception or division. That is God working, that is God fulfilling His promise to preserve His Church. Just remember that a kingdom divided against itself can not stand, and Sola Scriptura and man's interpretation thereof has caused many divisions.

Sola Scriptura could be a good thing if man could be trusted to interpret scripture accurately, but in our fallen state we are prone to err, wishful thinking, and faulty logic. This is why we need to submit ourselves to Christ and the Church He established. God was smart enough to know that when man is left to his own devices that man will surely fail, that is why God also gave to us - through the Apostles - the Traditions of the Church, so we would not be left to our own devices and fall away from His grace.

So in conclusion... God is not the author of evil, He does not cause confusion. Reading the Bible is not evil and can in fact lead to the truth. BUT!!! Man, in his fallen state, and left to his own devices will (and does) misinterpret Scripture unless we have some predetermined way that was established with the Church on how to interpret Scripture properly and not through our own, fallen mindset.
OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,569
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #886 on: October 11, 2010, 05:44:55 PM »
Sola scripture means people read the Bible to learn the truth, not other literature.

If you insist reading the Bible leads to people being deceived, you are accusing God of misleading people as He wrote the Bible

Did God personally author logos.com's software products and armchair theological interpretations?

and is smart enough to know what happens to people when they read His writing.

Am I condemned for not paying $$$$ to buy logos.com software products?

So, is God the author of evil?

Is God the author of logos.com?   ???

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #887 on: October 11, 2010, 06:46:15 PM »
Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.
Parsimony, as in extreme economy or frugality, a characteristic of all correct interpretation? Who made up this rule? ???

Its common sense, but also an accepted maxim of science, parsimony is a characteristic of true interpretation.
But interpretation of the Scriptures was never meant to be a science. For all the good it has given us, science is merely a construct made by man. To subject interpretation of Scripture to the maxims of science, as you suggest we need to do, is to use a man-made method to "unlock" the secrets of God's revelation. Is this even possible without totally mutilating the divine writ? It sounds to me like trying to put God in a box of man's own making. Maybe we should let the Holy Spirit of God lead us into the proper interpretation of Scripture rather than rely on a scientific method made by man.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 06:48:36 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #888 on: October 11, 2010, 08:29:30 PM »
Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.
Parsimony, as in extreme economy or frugality, a characteristic of all correct interpretation? Who made up this rule? ???

Its common sense, but also an accepted maxim of science, parsimony is a characteristic of true interpretation.
But interpretation of the Scriptures was never meant to be a science. For all the good it has given us, science is merely a construct made by man. To subject interpretation of Scripture to the maxims of science, as you suggest we need to do, is to use a man-made method to "unlock" the secrets of God's revelation. Is this even possible without totally mutilating the divine writ? It sounds to me like trying to put God in a box of man's own making. Maybe we should let the Holy Spirit of God lead us into the proper interpretation of Scripture rather than rely on a scientific method made by man.

[sarcasm]
*GASP!* You mean we should let God do what God will instead of trying to make God do what we will? Perhaps we should also let God mean what God means instead of trying to make God mean what we mean! Preposterous! Frankly, good sir, I am offended!
[/sarcasm]

Me thinks this is a point well said and well made... Putting God in a box is what many Protestants are keen on doing, although most of them are unaware that they are doing so. Many of them have a preconceived notion of who God is and what God does that when they interpret Scripture they do so to fit their image of God. Any thing that says God might not be preconceived-notion-x is blasphemous to them. They spend all of their time trying to make God this one thing as opposed to actually getting to know Him.
OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline Thankful

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 263
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #889 on: October 11, 2010, 08:57:15 PM »

So you blame God for not writing clear enough? Is He the author of this confusion?

Can He really be the Supreme Being given His inability to write clearly and stop sectarianism?

Aren't you superior to God...you can write clearly, something He seems unable to do?


Heh, heh.  This is the second time in this same thread you've tried that tack.  And just like the first time, you prove my point marvelously.  You interpreted my writing differently than what was meant.  You concluded things I, and others, do not conclude.  So YES, my writing apparently can be taken more than one way -- just like many of the Scriptures can.  It's not that I'm writing confusing things (nor did God when inspiring humans to write the words of Scripture), it's just that our limited minds might interpret things differently.  Written words often need an interpreter.  Thus, the Church -- the "pillar and foundation of the truth."  The Church lays the foundation and puts up the walls that support God's truth.  You, Alfred, I'm sorry to say, are not the Church.  So I can't accept your interpretations.  (But don't take it personally). 

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,230
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #890 on: October 11, 2010, 09:05:09 PM »

So you blame God for not writing clear enough? Is He the author of this confusion?

Can He really be the Supreme Being given His inability to write clearly and stop sectarianism?

Aren't you superior to God...you can write clearly, something He seems unable to do?


Heh, heh.  This is the second time in this same thread you've tried that tack.  And just like the first time, you prove my point marvelously.  You interpreted my writing differently than what was meant.  You concluded things I, and others, do not conclude.  So YES, my writing apparently can be taken more than one way -- just like many of the Scriptures can.  It's not that I'm writing confusing things (nor did God when inspiring humans to write the words of Scripture), it's just that our limited minds might interpret things differently.  Written words often need an interpreter.  Thus, the Church -- the "pillar and foundation of the truth."  The Church lays the foundation and puts up the walls that support God's truth.  You, Alfred, I'm sorry to say, are not the Church.  So I can't accept your interpretations.  (But don't take it personally). 

I think he tries that trick every time somebody joins into the discussion...

OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,263
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #891 on: October 11, 2010, 09:22:16 PM »

Again, you miss the point made. I am not blaming God for sowing confusion. I am blaming man for sowing confusion by relying on his own mind and intellect....

AND you miss the simple fact God ruled out adding tradition to His word:

{Snip}

Therefore man's inability to understand His Word without Tradition is God's fault...

Moreover, you are superior to God...no tradition is required for me to read your words with understanding.

IN fact, school children across the land do every day, what God evidently could not, communicate by writing without a body of tradition.

So you are blaming God when you blame reading the Bible.

As for Madison, its clear from his quote, he blames men, not the Bible.

AND you deny reality...sola scripturaist have a higher level of agreement as to what scripture says, than you traditionalists do...

You folks can't even agree on a commentary that details what Scripture says.

You point to the fathers...what good is that when you don't heed them, the vast majority of them believed in Christ's millennial kingdom, so you pick and choose what you like in the fathers...evidently that's why you don't author an "approved commentary detailing what the fathers taught" lest you have to teach the same.

Its as though you folks are "pathological", totally misrepresenting what you do as everyone thinking alike, when its obvious to everyone that is precisely what you  don't do.

Then you justify your disorder and dissension, by citing cults and non sola scripturaists, and apostates, as proof you are more unified than those who read the Bible alone...the hubris is incredible. 

You have indeed proven his point.  You're the only person, out of dozens that have seen his post, to erroneously interpret his words in that way; the rest of us clearly saw his intention and true meaning.  It then stands that you individually are incapable of interpreting what he said because of a defect in your thinking (which I do not believe to be true), or you have demonstrated that even clear statements with clear intentions and meanings can be misinterpreted by people because human beings are imperfect.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 09:22:48 PM by Fr. George »
How in Mor's good name
one hundred fifty four posts
No Rachel Weisz pic

Selam

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #892 on: October 11, 2010, 10:37:47 PM »
Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.
Parsimony, as in extreme economy or frugality, a characteristic of all correct interpretation? Who made up this rule? ???

Its common sense, but also an accepted maxim of science, parsimony is a characteristic of true interpretation.
But interpretation of the Scriptures was never meant to be a science. For all the good it has given us, science is merely a construct made by man. To subject interpretation of Scripture to the maxims of science, as you suggest we need to do, is to use a man-made method to "unlock" the secrets of God's revelation. Is this even possible without totally mutilating the divine writ? It sounds to me like trying to put God in a box of man's own making. Maybe we should let the Holy Spirit of God lead us into the proper interpretation of Scripture rather than rely on a scientific method made by man.

I agree with you, I am against that also. I wasn't clear. Sola scriptura holds the Bible as the Supreme Authority, while allowing one be open to everything, including tradition, the fathers, and especially the Holy Spirit.

BUT the correct interpretation will always be parsimonous. An example:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Gen 1:1 KJV)

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen 1:3 KJV)

Atheists etc point to this as proof the Bible errs, as heaven and earth is created in vs 1, so was light, making verse 3 impossible.

What is missing in their interpretation is conformity to the text in its context:

KJV  Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
 (Gen 1:1-5 KJV)

God's PERSPECTIVE changes from outer space (1:1) to the earth (1:2). The light that existed in outer space wasn't striking the surface of the earth. Science informs us the early earth was enveloped in thick cloud which was like a swaddling cloth, but had we listened, that fact was already revealed in scripture:

When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band;
 (Job 38:9 NKJ)

So also the fact the earth is round, when it is written He who sits above the circle, which is what a sphere appears like in outer space, moved to the surface of the waters (Gen 1:2) and it was dark:

NKJ  Isaiah 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. (Isa 40:22 NKJ)

When God said "Let there be light," from His earth perspective, that is "let there be light upon the earth," God thus made it possible light go through the thick cloud.

Science NOW realizes the early earth had in its thermosphere a water canopy (which is where much of the flood waters came from), and God evidently made the water transparent so the celestial objects and light could be seen, and day an night distinguishable.

If you research the various ways folks tried to resolve this apparent contradiction, you will note they all violated Ockham's Razor. It wasn't until modern science that we realized these things could be literally true, and THEN you will note the above interpretation of God's changed perspective, IS parsimonous.

Its the correct interpretation, that is why it manifests the characteristic of parsimony. But we still require the ministry of the Holy Spirit to accept this, because as you know, this interpretation won't convince the average Atheist, they just stop citing it with their other (alleged) proofs.


So I am not claiming human logic can figure out every discrepancy, I clearly depend upon the ministry of the Holy Spirit to identify from all the possible options, which is correct:

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (1Jo 2:20 KJV)

BUT the truth the Holy Spirit identifies as correct will ALWAYS conform to Scripture, it will be parsimonous to scripture.

If it does not conform 100%  to scripture,  then its not the Holy Spirit who is suggesting it:

KJV  Deuteronomy 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
 (Deu 13:1-4 KJV)

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.[/i] (1Jo 4:6 KJV)

The Holy Spirit NEVER contradicts scripture.

Sometimes the "missing piece" of a picture puzzle is suggested by tradition, or an expositor, which then allows apparently contrary items, fit the greater whole. But even there, parsimony will be maintained throughout.

For example, two blind men, one holds its trunk, the other its tail, and both describe what they believe the elephant looks like. These apparently contrary views are resolved when someone "deduces" there is a body connecting the two, then parsimony is maintained.

The Holy Spirit is essential to see the unseen body of the truth, and if you will accept it, He always prompts us to it, in the scripture. Everything is in there, explicitly or implicitly...everything we need to know.

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. (Pro 25:2 NKJ)

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
 (2Ti 2:15 KJV)

NKJ  2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 11:02:54 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #893 on: October 12, 2010, 01:36:55 AM »
Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.
Parsimony, as in extreme economy or frugality, a characteristic of all correct interpretation? Who made up this rule? ???

Its common sense, but also an accepted maxim of science, parsimony is a characteristic of true interpretation.
But interpretation of the Scriptures was never meant to be a science. For all the good it has given us, science is merely a construct made by man. To subject interpretation of Scripture to the maxims of science, as you suggest we need to do, is to use a man-made method to "unlock" the secrets of God's revelation. Is this even possible without totally mutilating the divine writ? It sounds to me like trying to put God in a box of man's own making. Maybe we should let the Holy Spirit of God lead us into the proper interpretation of Scripture rather than rely on a scientific method made by man.

I agree with you, I am against that also. I wasn't clear. Sola scriptura holds the Bible as the Supreme Authority, while allowing one be open to everything, including tradition, the fathers, and especially the Holy Spirit.

BUT the correct interpretation will always be parsimonous. An example:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Gen 1:1 KJV)

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen 1:3 KJV)

Atheists etc point to this as proof the Bible errs, as heaven and earth is created in vs 1, so was light, making verse 3 impossible.

What is missing in their interpretation is conformity to the text in its context:

KJV  Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
 (Gen 1:1-5 KJV)

God's PERSPECTIVE changes from outer space (1:1) to the earth (1:2). The light that existed in outer space wasn't striking the surface of the earth. Science informs us the early earth was enveloped in thick cloud which was like a swaddling cloth, but had we listened, that fact was already revealed in scripture:

When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band;
 (Job 38:9 NKJ)

So also the fact the earth is round, when it is written He who sits above the circle, which is what a sphere appears like in outer space, moved to the surface of the waters (Gen 1:2) and it was dark:

NKJ  Isaiah 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. (Isa 40:22 NKJ)

When God said "Let there be light," from His earth perspective, that is "let there be light upon the earth," God thus made it possible light go through the thick cloud.

Science NOW realizes the early earth had in its thermosphere a water canopy (which is where much of the flood waters came from), and God evidently made the water transparent so the celestial objects and light could be seen, and day an night distinguishable.

If you research the various ways folks tried to resolve this apparent contradiction, you will note they all violated Ockham's Razor. It wasn't until modern science that we realized these things could be literally true, and THEN you will note the above interpretation of God's changed perspective, IS parsimonous.

Its the correct interpretation, that is why it manifests the characteristic of parsimony. But we still require the ministry of the Holy Spirit to accept this, because as you know, this interpretation won't convince the average Atheist, they just stop citing it with their other (alleged) proofs.


So I am not claiming human logic can figure out every discrepancy, I clearly depend upon the ministry of the Holy Spirit to identify from all the possible options, which is correct:

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (1Jo 2:20 KJV)

BUT the truth the Holy Spirit identifies as correct will ALWAYS conform to Scripture, it will be parsimonous to scripture.

If it does not conform 100%  to scripture,  then its not the Holy Spirit who is suggesting it:
Finally, you're saying something with which we Orthodox can agree. The thing you may not realize in our polemics is that the Orthodox Church is actually a much more biblically based church than you think, and we give a much higher authority to Scripture than meets your eye. Most of our liturgical prayers are references to the Scripture, including the Magnificat, our most important hymn of Mary (cf. Luke 1:46-55). Like you, we also believe the Scriptures the ultimate arbiter of truth, and that anything that truly contradicts the Scriptures cannot be part of our Tradition, since the God who inspired the writing of Scripture cannot contradict Himself.

The big difference, though, is how you and we see the Holy Spirit working to guide us into a correct interpretation of Scripture. Whereas we both recognize the work of the Holy Spirit in the inspiration of the writers of Holy Scripture, we Orthodox also recognize the work of the Holy Spirit within the Church to guide us into a proper interpretation of Scripture, while you do not. To us, Holy Tradition is nothing less than the Holy Spirit's guidance of the Church into all truth. You, however, separate the Scriptures from the life of the Church guided by the Holy Spirit and make the Bible a book to be studied in isolation by methods of your choosing. To you, human traditions are nice in that they can help us see in the Scriptures things we may not have seen before, but they are dispensable while the Scriptures are the sole final authority on their interpretation. We, however, see Tradition (the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church) as absolutely necessary to a proper interpretation of Scripture. The Scriptures are supremely authoritative within our Tradition, since they are the chief product of Tradition, but we cannot dispense with any of the other elements of our divinely inspired Tradition and replace them with hermeneutical methods created by mere men. The Scriptures are the product of a divine life lived within the Church, not a collection of texts to be deciphered via the academic methods by which we dissect all other texts. (Have you noticed that you really can't dissect anything without killing it first?) Only by partaking of this divine life within the eucharistic community of the Church can one come to a true and complete understanding of Scripture.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 01:38:35 AM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #894 on: October 12, 2010, 06:44:34 AM »
Parsimony is a characteristic of all correct interpretation, empirically demonstrable.
Parsimony, as in extreme economy or frugality, a characteristic of all correct interpretation? Who made up this rule? ???

Its common sense, but also an accepted maxim of science, parsimony is a characteristic of true interpretation.
But interpretation of the Scriptures was never meant to be a science. For all the good it has given us, science is merely a construct made by man. To subject interpretation of Scripture to the maxims of science, as you suggest we need to do, is to use a man-made method to "unlock" the secrets of God's revelation. Is this even possible without totally mutilating the divine writ? It sounds to me like trying to put God in a box of man's own making. Maybe we should let the Holy Spirit of God lead us into the proper interpretation of Scripture rather than rely on a scientific method made by man.

I agree with you, I am against that also. I wasn't clear. Sola scriptura holds the Bible as the Supreme Authority, while allowing one be open to everything, including tradition, the fathers, and especially the Holy Spirit.

BUT the correct interpretation will always be parsimonous. An example:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Gen 1:1 KJV)

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Gen 1:3 KJV)

Atheists etc point to this as proof the Bible errs, as heaven and earth is created in vs 1, so was light, making verse 3 impossible.

What is missing in their interpretation is conformity to the text in its context:

KJV  Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
 (Gen 1:1-5 KJV)

God's PERSPECTIVE changes from outer space (1:1) to the earth (1:2). The light that existed in outer space wasn't striking the surface of the earth. Science informs us the early earth was enveloped in thick cloud which was like a swaddling cloth, but had we listened, that fact was already revealed in scripture:

When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band;
 (Job 38:9 NKJ)

So also the fact the earth is round, when it is written He who sits above the circle, which is what a sphere appears like in outer space, moved to the surface of the waters (Gen 1:2) and it was dark:

NKJ  Isaiah 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. (Isa 40:22 NKJ)

When God said "Let there be light," from His earth perspective, that is "let there be light upon the earth," God thus made it possible light go through the thick cloud.

Science NOW realizes the early earth had in its thermosphere a water canopy (which is where much of the flood waters came from), and God evidently made the water transparent so the celestial objects and light could be seen, and day an night distinguishable.

If you research the various ways folks tried to resolve this apparent contradiction, you will note they all violated Ockham's Razor. It wasn't until modern science that we realized these things could be literally true, and THEN you will note the above interpretation of God's changed perspective, IS parsimonous.

Its the correct interpretation, that is why it manifests the characteristic of parsimony. But we still require the ministry of the Holy Spirit to accept this, because as you know, this interpretation won't convince the average Atheist, they just stop citing it with their other (alleged) proofs.


So I am not claiming human logic can figure out every discrepancy, I clearly depend upon the ministry of the Holy Spirit to identify from all the possible options, which is correct:

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (1Jo 2:20 KJV)

BUT the truth the Holy Spirit identifies as correct will ALWAYS conform to Scripture, it will be parsimonous to scripture.

If it does not conform 100%  to scripture,  then its not the Holy Spirit who is suggesting it:
Finally, you're saying something with which we Orthodox can agree. The thing you may not realize in our polemics is that the Orthodox Church is actually a much more biblically based church than you think, and we give a much higher authority to Scripture than meets your eye. Most of our liturgical prayers are references to the Scripture, including the Magnificat, our most important hymn of Mary (cf. Luke 1:46-55). Like you, we also believe the Scriptures the ultimate arbiter of truth, and that anything that truly contradicts the Scriptures cannot be part of our Tradition, since the God who inspired the writing of Scripture cannot contradict Himself.

The big difference, though, is how you and we see the Holy Spirit working to guide us into a correct interpretation of Scripture. Whereas we both recognize the work of the Holy Spirit in the inspiration of the writers of Holy Scripture, we Orthodox also recognize the work of the Holy Spirit within the Church to guide us into a proper interpretation of Scripture, while you do not. To us, Holy Tradition is nothing less than the Holy Spirit's guidance of the Church into all truth. You, however, separate the Scriptures from the life of the Church guided by the Holy Spirit and make the Bible a book to be studied in isolation by methods of your choosing. To you, human traditions are nice in that they can help us see in the Scriptures things we may not have seen before, but they are dispensable while the Scriptures are the sole final authority on their interpretation. We, however, see Tradition (the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church) as absolutely necessary to a proper interpretation of Scripture. The Scriptures are supremely authoritative within our Tradition, since they are the chief product of Tradition, but we cannot dispense with any of the other elements of our divinely inspired Tradition and replace them with hermeneutical methods created by mere men. The Scriptures are the product of a divine life lived within the Church, not a collection of texts to be deciphered via the academic methods by which we dissect all other texts. (Have you noticed that you really can't dissect anything without killing it first?) Only by partaking of this divine life within the eucharistic community of the Church can one come to a true and complete understanding of Scripture.

I agree the Orthodox are certainly more biblically based than Roman Catholicism and even some Protestant denominations. In fact, if we added up where we agree, the Holy Trinity, on much of eschatology, and calculated the percentage of our disagreement, the advisability of using the title Mother of God (not the rational for it we agree on), icons, elevating tradition to Scripture's level  of authority (which I am unsure the Orthodox actually do, contrary to the statements of some here), aspects of the Eucharist,  our disagreement is perhaps  10%. Even if it were 20%, that would represent an exceedingly high level of agreement given the ancient nature of the data we are both interpreting.

Your dissection analogy fails, scripture is not a creature. But I think you have realized sola scriptura is not solo scriptura, that we are open to all tradition when considering the text. Some among us, the reformed Baptists, give tradition even more weight.

The bottom line is, sola scriptura better reflects how Christ saw Scripture and tradition---He condemns tradition that contradicts Scripture, He does not deny it (Jewish Tradition) may contain valuable teaching:

Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old."
 (Mat 13:52 NKJ)

AND sola scriptura best fits Paul's view of Church tradition:

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? (1Co 14:36 KJV)

Your denials of this text are unconvincing. Paul is confronting Corinthian tradition that perhaps rose up from the tongues, prophecy and knowledge gifts the Holy Spirit inspired.

Did the Holy Spirit inspire error. No, not at all. People did, they either misunderstood what the Holy Spirit was trying to teach them, or they confused what was not from Him, as though it was (Mat 7:22f; 2 Th 2:10; 1 Ti 4:1; 1 Jo 4:1ff cp 1 Jo 2:19f):

NKJ  1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:
 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.
 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
 (1Co 12:1-3 NKJ)

Paul reminds the Corinthians of their former pagan experience with antichrist (instead of Christ) spirits who pretended to be divine, they literally carried them away into idolatry. The mystical experiences associated with idolatry overcame their reason, they were "carried away." So Paul gives them an objective test whether its an evil spirit speaking through a prophet, or God's Holy Spirit. As an evil spirit cannot confess "Jesus is Lord" the prophet saying this, while under "control" of the Spirit proves he is speaking by God's Holy Spirit, the one saying "Jesus is accursed" proves he is speaking by demonic spirit, because (the contrast implies), the Holy Spirit could never say that.

The point is, the experience itself is not being distinguished, Paul is not saying "the real Holy Spirit feels different"...He is rather providing a way to objectively identify the spirit speaking.

The majority of Corinthians were tired of all the false prophecy and tongues a minority was babbling, and were going to forbid all tongues speaking:

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:39-40 NKJ)

Same thing happened in Thessalonica:

20 Do not despise prophecies.
 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
 (1Th 5:20-21 NKJ)

The point is, the  bad teaching entered the "living tradition of the church" and Paul confronts it, saying that material is NOT the Word of God, it is NOT on the same level at all:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
(1Co 14:36-37 NKJ)


If "living tradition in the church" is inspired without error, then most of the New Testament written to correct errors in Church tradition wouldn't have been written, there wouldn't have been any errors in the Church tradition to correct, as Paul is certainly doing throughout 1 Corinthians and in particular chapters 12-14.

Even the proposition "apostolic oral tradition in the church is inerrant" is contradicted by Paul in Galatians:

 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8 NKJ)

 11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.
 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.
 (Gal 2:11-13 NKJ)

If Paul had not publicly rebuked Peter's error, his "living tradition in the church" might still be contradicting the gospel of Christ.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 07:15:49 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #895 on: October 12, 2010, 07:44:03 AM »

Again, you miss the point made. I am not blaming God for sowing confusion. I am blaming man for sowing confusion by relying on his own mind and intellect....

AND you miss the simple fact God ruled out adding tradition to His word:

{Snip}

Therefore man's inability to understand His Word without Tradition is God's fault...

Moreover, you are superior to God...no tradition is required for me to read your words with understanding.

IN fact, school children across the land do every day, what God evidently could not, communicate by writing without a body of tradition.

So you are blaming God when you blame reading the Bible.

As for Madison, its clear from his quote, he blames men, not the Bible.

AND you deny reality...sola scripturaist have a higher level of agreement as to what scripture says, than you traditionalists do...

You folks can't even agree on a commentary that details what Scripture says.

You point to the fathers...what good is that when you don't heed them, the vast majority of them believed in Christ's millennial kingdom, so you pick and choose what you like in the fathers...evidently that's why you don't author an "approved commentary detailing what the fathers taught" lest you have to teach the same.

Its as though you folks are "pathological", totally misrepresenting what you do as everyone thinking alike, when its obvious to everyone that is precisely what you  don't do.

Then you justify your disorder and dissension, by citing cults and non sola scripturaists, and apostates, as proof you are more unified than those who read the Bible alone...the hubris is incredible.  

You have indeed proven his point.  You're the only person, out of dozens that have seen his post, to erroneously interpret his words in that way; the rest of us clearly saw his intention and true meaning.  It then stands that you individually are incapable of interpreting what he said because of a defect in your thinking (which I do not believe to be true), or you have demonstrated that even clear statements with clear intentions and meanings can be misinterpreted by people because human beings are imperfect.

Incorrect, I never disputed that point, rather I insisted the blame is on man, not scripture.

I do dispute man is unable to overcome the defects in his character and interpret writing, then law, contracts, literature in general, probably wouldn't exist...for who could understand it?

Your argument  rests upon the fallacy of special pleading, that the Bible alone, unique among all the literature in existence, cannot be understood by itself, it requires tradition to complete its sense....a proposition you don't hold when you read my posts, or those of others. Then it seems you have no problem reading and understanding without tradition's input.

That is special pleading and is insulting to its author given God is Omniscient, you must be saying He authored confusion on purpose....wrote scripture to confuse us.

That would be evil, would it not?

So you cannot argue the Bible cannot be understood without tradition, for then God's failure to identify and precisely define that tradition inevitally leads to evil, and then God is the author of evil...a premise you certainly would reject.

Therefore you cannot special plead The Bible alone, unique among all  literature on the planet, cannot be understood without tradition, for when you do, you are ascribing evil to God.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 08:15:09 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline recent convert

  • Orthodox Chrisitan
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,282
  • St.David of Wales pray for us
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #896 on: October 12, 2010, 07:46:32 AM »
The faith we have preserved in the Orthodox Church is that given by St. Paul in Hebrews 11 and the consensus of the fathers who have preserved it.
Antiochian OC NA

Beware the wrath of the guardians of "love."

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #897 on: October 12, 2010, 07:55:31 AM »

For example, the millennial kingdom is a consensus in the earliest fathers,
References, please.

Papias, Justin Martyr, Theophilus, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Caius according to Eusebius, Origin, Commodianus, Nepos accorinding to Dionysius of Alexandria, Victorinus, Methodius, Lactantius to name a few believed in the Millennial reign of Christ:



KJV  Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
 (Rev 20:1-7 KJV)

Without the millennial reign of Christ, the above texts and many others are inexplicable.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 07:56:05 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #898 on: October 12, 2010, 07:57:54 AM »
The faith we have preserved in the Orthodox Church is that given by St. Paul in Hebrews 11 and the consensus of the fathers who have preserved it.

I wish that were true, but its impossible as the Orthodox rejection of the teaching there will be a Millennial reign of Christ proves:

Papias, Justin Martyr, Theophilus, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Caius according to Eusebius, Origin, Commodianus, Nepos accorinding to Dionysius of Alexandria, Victorinus, Methodius, Lactantius to name a few believed in the Millennial reign of Christ:

That the apostles taught it is easy to see:


KJV  Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
 (Rev 20:1-7 KJV)

Without the millennial reign of Christ, the above texts and many others are inexplicable.


For example, Christians saved now, in this life, will be kings and priests:

 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
 (Rev 1:5-6 NKJ)

 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." (Rev 5:10 NKJ)

Obviously this would ring hollow if only kings and priests are saved, living in God's kingdom. We must have subjects to be true "kings and priests," therefore the millennial kingdom at least, and perhaps also the final general resurrection, are required to give us subjects:

 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison (Rev 20:7 NKJ)

 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-1 NKJ)

Therefore some rose from hell who were written in the Book of life and NOT cast into the lake of fire.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 08:08:16 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline recent convert

  • Orthodox Chrisitan
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,282
  • St.David of Wales pray for us
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #899 on: October 12, 2010, 08:24:37 AM »
The faith we have preserved in the Orthodox Church is that given by St. Paul in Hebrews 11 and the consensus of the fathers who have preserved it.

I wish that were true, but its impossible as the Orthodox rejection of the teaching there will be a Millennial reign of Christ proves:

Papias, Justin Martyr, Theophilus, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Caius according to Eusebius, Origin, Commodianus, Nepos accorinding to Dionysius of Alexandria, Victorinus, Methodius, Lactantius to name a few believed in the Millennial reign of Christ:

That the apostles taught it is easy to see:


KJV  Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
 (Rev 20:1-7 KJV)

Without the millennial reign of Christ, the above texts and many others are inexplicable.


For example, Christians saved now, in this life, will be kings and priests:

 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
 (Rev 1:5-6 NKJ)

 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." (Rev 5:10 NKJ)

Obviously this would ring hollow if only kings and priests are saved, living in God's kingdom. We must have subjects to be true "kings and priests," therefore the millennial kingdom at least, and perhaps also the final general resurrection, are required to give us subjects:

 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison (Rev 20:7 NKJ)

 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 (Rev 20:12-1 NKJ)
The millenial reign is that of the earthly church and whatever sobriety fathers like St. Justin may have had re this were swamped by the Montanist heresies in which even the previously Orthodox father Tertullian succumbed to. We are told to watch and wait, live our faith & not succumb to useless speculations re millenialism. Look at all of this pre trib, post trib stuff  (whatever it is supposed to mean) has been espoused by certain groups of Protestant evengelicals.
Antiochian OC NA

Beware the wrath of the guardians of "love."