Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 198160 times)

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #765 on: October 06, 2010, 09:07:00 AM »
I decided to Google where Orthodox Commentary might exist, and learned it doesn't, apart from the Ancient Christian Commentary I already have in my Logos library:

http://www.logos.com/

But I did find an Orthodox Catechism:

http://orthodoxcatechism.org/

AND was shocked to read this:

Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.
Underline mine.

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,...

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues
, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 (Act 1:14-4 NKJ)

 9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God
; And we shall reign on the earth."
 (Rev 5:9-10 NKJ)

The evidence for the tongues of fire only appearing on the apostles, is one of grammar:

 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
NKJ  Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 (Act 1:26-1 NKJ)

Chapter & verse divisions are not part of the original Greek, therefore the referent of "they were all..in one place" could be Matthias and the eleven apostles.

Against that the phrase "with one accord" ( ὁμοθυμαδὸν) indicates the referent is to be found earlier in the context:

 14 These all continued with one accord ( ὁμοθυμαδὸν)in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,
 (Act 1:14-15 NKJ)

BECAUSE These 120 became the FOUNDING apostles and prophets of the church, they had to have received the Holy Spirit equal to the Twelve (cp Acts 10:47):

 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, (1Co 12:28 NKJ)

Apart from the Twelve,  both Paul and James, the Lord's brother, are apostles:

 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.
 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother.
 (Gal 1:17-19 NKJ)

(This James is not to be confused with James, brother of John Acts 12:2)

These are not successors, they are in addition to the Twelve, and are founding apostles.


Barnabas is both founding prophet (Acts 13:1) and apostle (Acts 14:4) as is Paul (Acts 14:4; 1 Cor 9:6)):

NKJ  1 Corinthians 9:1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?
 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
 3 My defense to those who examine me is this:
 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink?
 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working?
 (1Co 9:1-6 NKJ)

The Twelve had a special relationship to the nation of Israel, one for each Tribe, but there were other founding apostles and prophets who wrote scripture. Therefore they had to have had the tongues of fire fall upon them also, just as the context of Acts 2:1 implies, all 120 of them received the Holy Spirit.

It does not follow all had the same gifts, the context indicates the signs of the apostles were unique:

 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. (Act 2:43 NKJ)



« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 09:09:02 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #766 on: October 06, 2010, 10:23:44 AM »
I guess I'm missing something ... which part of the Scripture were you "shocked" about, Alfred?
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #767 on: October 06, 2010, 10:31:29 AM »
I guess I'm missing something ... which part of the Scripture were you "shocked" about, Alfred?

Not scripture, the limiting of the Holy Spirit and priesthood to the Twelve.

That is shocking, also odd considering this text:

 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Act 10:47 NKJ)

Unless Peter is lying, these received the Holy Spirit "just as" ( καθὼς) we (the apostles),  tongues etc.

So the premise others could receive the Holy Spirit equal to the Twelve is accepted by Peter.

No doubt these joined those who were founding apostles and prophets. The core group was the Seventy Christ Himself chose, in addition to the Twelve:

NKJ  Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go. (Luk 10:1 NKJ)

They grew to 120 in Ac 1:15 and its likely women weren't counted, but present regardless.


There are no successors to these founding apostles and prophets, once the Gospel was established, once the NT nearly completed, God stopped granting that authority to others:

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)

The gifts of tongues, "other languages", was a sign to the Jews Jesus is the Way (1 Cor 14:22) and ceased to be distributed in the church at about the time the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD.

A careful reading of 1 Corinthians shows the gift was already ceasing when Paul wrote (1 Cor 13:8ff), most of the epistle concerned non Charismatic issues (c. 1-11) and its clear only a minority of folks there still had the gift:

 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; (1Co 1:22 NKJ)

This is confirmed by the elementary fact a minority could not forbid a practice by the majority:

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. (1Co 14:39 NKJ)

Some have argued this partial revelation would would remain till the Complete Revelation come:

10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
 (1Co 13:10-12 NKJ)

But Paul doesn't know when the end shall come, he only knows if it happens in his lifetime, then the partial would end.

Like saying, "When the ice cream truck arrives, dispensing gallons of ice cream, then having only scoops of it will be done away."

Its not a prediction the folks having only scoops of ice cream will persist till the truck comes, that isn't the subject. Its only saying when the truck comes, dispensing gallons of the stuff, then having only scoops of it will be done away, the "time of partial ice cream" will be done away.

« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 11:05:51 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #768 on: October 06, 2010, 12:04:29 PM »
Quote
Its not a prediction the folks having only scoops of ice cream will persist till the truck comes, that isn't the subject. Its only saying when the truck comes, dispensing gallons of the stuff, then having only scoops of it will be done away, the "time of partial ice cream" will be done away.

 ???

 :o

What?
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #769 on: October 06, 2010, 12:05:53 PM »
Quote
Its not a prediction the folks having only scoops of ice cream will persist till the truck comes, that isn't the subject. Its only saying when the truck comes, dispensing gallons of the stuff, then having only scoops of it will be done away, the "time of partial ice cream" will be done away.

 ???

 :o

What?

That's an "analogy", look it up to learn what that is, then reread what I said, you might comprehend it then.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 12:06:28 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #770 on: October 06, 2010, 01:23:16 PM »
I decided to Google where Orthodox Commentary might exist, and learned it doesn't, apart from the Ancient Christian Commentary I already have in my Logos library:

http://www.logos.com/

But I did find an Orthodox Catechism:

http://orthodoxcatechism.org/

AND was shocked to read this:

Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.
Underline mine.

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,...

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues
, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 (Act 1:14-4 NKJ)

 9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God
; And we shall reign on the earth."
 (Rev 5:9-10 NKJ)

The evidence for the tongues of fire only appearing on the apostles, is one of grammar:

Which you do not know.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #771 on: October 06, 2010, 01:45:28 PM »
Quote
Its not a prediction the folks having only scoops of ice cream will persist till the truck comes, that isn't the subject. Its only saying when the truck comes, dispensing gallons of the stuff, then having only scoops of it will be done away, the "time of partial ice cream" will be done away.

 ???

 :o

What?

That's an "analogy", look it up to learn what that is, then reread what I said, you might comprehend it then.

How pleasant.  ::)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #772 on: October 06, 2010, 01:47:49 PM »
So what, has Alfred now latched onto this whole business about Pentecost so he can avoid the questions has has been repeatedly asked?

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #773 on: October 06, 2010, 01:48:39 PM »
The Twelve had a special relationship to the nation of Israel, one for each Tribe,

In making the above assertion, is that you, or the logos.com software, or both?

You don't like me equating Perssonism to "logos.com"ism ... well, I call things like I see them unless you prove me wrong (which, BTW, you haven't).   ;)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #774 on: October 06, 2010, 01:52:15 PM »
So what, has Alfred now latched onto this whole business about Pentecost so he can avoid the questions has has been repeatedly asked?

He's been backed into a corner and Pentecost is the only drop of water remaining in his water pistol after he was thoroughly debunked on 1 Corinthians 14:33, a verse which he used to challenge us on many occasions.

Poor Alfred and his "sola logos.com" theology.    :( ::)  :(

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #775 on: October 06, 2010, 02:51:49 PM »
Another shocking contradiction of Scripture:

"He also makes clear that this Trinitarian doctrine must be accepted by all Christians:

"If any man preach any other gospel to you than you have received (parelavete) let him be condemned" (Gal. 1:8-9).
http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Catechism/cattrad.htm


NKJ  Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.


While The Holy Trinity was delivered to the church, the teaching can be found in scripture:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Mat 28:19 NKJ)

"but about the faith they wrote not, `It seemed good,' but, `Thus believes the Catholic Church;' and thereupon they confessed how they believed, in order to shew that their own sentiments were not novel, but Apostolical; and what they wrote down was no discovery of theirs, but is the same as was taught by the Apostles.-Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia, Part I. History of the Councils, Athanasius.  
 

The Orthodox would have us believe in icon veneration, which is not part of the faith "once for all delivered" in the days of Jude, and therefore cannot be found in scripture.

We are to earnestly contend for "the faith" that existed in the days of Jude, the only way to do that is to deem everything men try to add to that faith  "pernicious novelty."


« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 02:58:09 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #776 on: October 06, 2010, 02:58:24 PM »
Another shocking contradiction of Scripture:

"He also makes clear that this Trinitarian doctrine must be accepted by all Christians:

"If any man preach any other gospel to you than you have received (parelavete) let him be condemned" (Gal. 1:8-9).
http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Catechism/cattrad.htm


NKJ  Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.


While The Holy Trinity was delivered to the church, the teaching can be found in scripture:

"but about the faith they wrote not, `It seemed good,' but, `Thus believes the Catholic Church;' and thereupon they confessed how they believed, in order to shew that their own sentiments were not novel, but Apostolical; and what they wrote down was no discovery of theirs, but is the same as was taught by the Apostles.-Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia, Part I. History of the Councils, Athanasius.  
 

The Orthodox would have us believe in icon veneration, which is not part of the faith "once for all delivered" in the days of Jude, and therefore cannot be found in scripture.

We are to earnestly contend for "the faith" that existed in the days of Jude, the only way to do that is to deem everything men try to add to that faith  "pernicious novelty."

Icon veneration, Marian veneration, are examples of novelty that didn't exist in the days of Jude.




Alfred,

were you to find archeological evidence of icon and Marian veneration in the time of the Apostles, would you then believe?

were you to be touched by healing from an image, would you curse the heavens?
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #777 on: October 06, 2010, 03:02:16 PM »
I guess I'm missing something ... which part of the Scripture were you "shocked" about, Alfred?

Not scripture, the limiting of the Holy Spirit and priesthood to the Twelve.

No one limited the Holy Spirit to the Twelve.

As to the priesthood:
The evidence for the tongues of fire only appearing on the apostles, is one of grammar:

 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
NKJ  Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 (Act 1:26-1 NKJ)

Chapter & verse divisions are not part of the original Greek, therefore the referent of "they were all..in one place" could be Matthias and the eleven apostles.

Against that the phrase "with one accord" ( ὁμοθυμαδὸν) indicates the referent is to be found earlier in the context:

 14 These all continued with one accord ( ὁμοθυμαδὸν)in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,
 (Act 1:14-15 NKJ)

BECAUSE These 120 became the FOUNDING apostles and prophets of the church, they had to have received the Holy Spirit equal to the Twelve (cp Acts 10:47):

The "these all"-as you correctly pointed out (proving a broken clock is correct twice a day), the verse divisions are not original-are indicated in the previous verse:
And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James.

Hmmm. I've seen that list before.
Quote
Luke 6:12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; 15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.
I thought so, the first part of St. Luke's work.
Hmmm. That "Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor" is missing in Acts. Wonder what happened to him? Maybe St. Luke tells us in the second half of his Gospel a/k/a "Acts"
Quote
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:


      ‘ Let his dwelling place be desolate,
      And let no one live in it’;

   and,


      ‘ Let another take his bishoprick.

21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Hmmm. Perhaps you think St. Luke couldn't count, and was short 109 Apostles, but that is because you do not believe the Scritpures.

That is shocking, also odd considering this text:

 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Act 10:47 NKJ)

Unless Peter is lying, these received the Holy Spirit "just as" ( καθὼς) we (the apostles),  tongues etc.

Or you don't know what you are talking about: if καθὼς meant "just as" in every sense, they wouldn't need baptism. "John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit." Acts 1:4. Yet "10:47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord."

you have already been directed to the Tradition on this received from the Apostles and held firm by the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church:
We have dealt with that already. But since you do not believe scripture, you continue to try to create your own tradition.
Baptismal regeneration is a excellent illustration:

45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:45-48 NKJ)

You refuse this elegant proof neither water or hands laying are necessary for regeneration.

Can you read? I've boldfaced to help you. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are many, speaking with tongues doesn't mean regeneration. As for laying on of hands, it doesn't say that St. Peter did not do that as well, after they BAPTIZED THEM WITH WATER.

You ask why you and the church fathers don't believe this,  and I do...its elementary.
The Fathers, sent by Christ through the Apostles, and consequently us, know what we are talking about
This  proves your rules are incorrect,

Yet again, you stop short:
48 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Your incorrect interpretation (and not infallible scripture) are contradicted here Acts 8:
Quote
12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.”
From someone sent by Christ through His Apostles and the grace of the Episcopacy from St. Peter's see of Antioch, St. John Chrysostom, he knows of what he speaks:
Quote
Observe God’s providential management. He does not suffer the speech to be finished, nor the baptism to take place upon a command of Peter, but, when He has made it evident how admirable their state of mind is, and a beginning is made of the work of teaching, and they have believed that assuredly baptism is the remission of sins, then forthwith comes the Spirit upon them. Now this is done by God’s so disposing it as to provide for Peter a mighty ground of justification...
and you don't.
But since you do not believe the Scriptures, you reject it.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #778 on: October 06, 2010, 03:02:27 PM »
http://www.christthesaviour.org/patronal_feast.htm

In the time that our Lord was preaching the Gospel and healing every disease and every infirmity among the people, there was in the city of Edessa, on the banks of the Euphrates, a certain Prince Avgar, who was riddled with leprosy. He heard of Christ, the Healer of every pain and sickness, and sent a portrait-painter, Ananias, to Palestine with a letter to Christ, in which he begged the Lord to come to Edessa and heal him of his leprosy. In the event of the Lord’s not being able to come, the prince commanded Ananias to paint His likeness and bring it, believing that the portrait would heal him. The Lord replied that he could not come, as the time of His Passion was at hand, and He took a napkin and wiped His face, leaving a perfect reproduction of His most pure face on the napkin. The Lord gave this napkin to Ananias, with a message to say that the prince would be healed by it, but not entirely, and He would therefore send him later an envoy who would rid him of the remainder of the disease. Receiving the napkin, Avgar kissed it and the leprosy fell from his body, with just a little remaining on his face. Later, the Apostle Thaddaeus, preaching the Gospel, came to Avgar, healed him secretly and baptized him. Then the prince smashed the idols that stood at the city’s gateway and placed the napkin with the face of Christ above the entrance, stuck onto wood, surrounded with a gold frame and ornamented with pearls. The prince also wrote above the icon on the gateway: “O Christ our God, no one who hopes in Thee will be put to shame.” Later, one of Avgar’s great-grandsons restored idolatry, and the Bishop of Edessa came by night and walled in the icon above the gateway.

Centuries passed. In the time of the Emperor Justinian, the Persian King, Chozroes, attacked Edessa, and the city was in great affliction. The Bishop of Edessa, Eulabius, had a vision of the most holy Mother of God, who revealed to him the secret of the icon, walled in and forgotten. The icon was found, and by its power the Persian army was defeated.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #779 on: October 06, 2010, 03:04:57 PM »
So the premise others could receive the Holy Spirit equal to the Twelve is accepted by Peter.

The Spirit received in Holy Baptism and Holy Chrismatiion is equal to any baptism or chrismation, e.g.
Of the Times Most Suitable for Baptism.

The Passover [i.e. Pascha] affords a more than usually solemn day for baptism; when, withal, the Lord’s passion, in which we are baptized, was completed. Nor will it be incongruous to interpret figuratively the fact that, when the Lord was about to celebrate the last Passover, He said to the disciples who were sent to make preparation, “Ye will meet a man bearing water.” (Mark xiv. 13; Luke xxii. 10)  He points out the place for celebrating the Passover by the sign of water. After that, Pentecost is a most joyous space [He means the whole fifty days from the Paschal Feast till Pentecost, including the latter. Bunsen Hippol. III. 18.] for conferring baptisms; wherein, too, the resurrection of the Lord was repeatedly proved [Frequentata, i.e. by His frequent appearance. See Acts i. 3, δι᾽ ἡμερῶν τεσσαράκοντα ὀπτανόμενος αὐτοῖς] among the disciples, and the hope of the advent of the Lord indirectly pointed to, in that, at that time, when He had been received back into the heavens, the angels  [Comp. Acts i. 10 and Luke ix. 30: in each place St. Luke says, ἄνδρες δύο: as also in xxiv. 4 of his Gospel] told the apostles that “He would so come, as He had withal ascended into the heavens;” [Acts i. 10, 11; but it is οὐρανόν throughout in the Greek] at Pentecost, of course. But, moreover, when Jeremiah says, “And I will gather them together from the extremities of the land in the feast-day,” he signifies the day of the Passover and of Pentecost, which is properly a “feast-day.” Jer. xxxi. 8, xxxviii. 8 in LXX., where ἐν ἑορτῇ φασέκ is found.] However, every day is the Lord’s; every hour, every time, is apt for baptism: if there is a difference in the solemnity, distinction there is none in the grace.

The last clause struck me.

Tertullian "On Baptism"
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.vi.iii.xix.html
But that has nothing to do with ordained priesthood nor the Apostleship whence it comes. We have dealt with that before:
The text says all 120 were there (not counting women of course), and all received the gifts of tongues = more than 12.

If you harkened to the Bible, and not your Pentacostal friends, you would know that gift of tongues =/= priesthood.

AND the idea only the 12 were priests, is clearly wrong, every believer is a king and priest.

The Twelve who Christ picked and upon whom the Holy Spirit descended has passed that gift down-along with their Traditions-in the laying on of their hands.

No Apostle's hand has been near your head.

So you are in no position to find anything wrong or right.  If I want to find out if the meat is good, I'll ask somebody eating a proper diet not someone who is spitting up milk.

I Cor. 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts.

But then you do not believe the Scirptures.

We will  rise in the first resurrection:So every born again believer is a priest and king...not just the apostles.
OK, Korah.

But you do not believe the Scpritures: Heb. 5:4 no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was.

But since you reject the Scriptures you take that honor to yourself.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #780 on: October 06, 2010, 03:06:59 PM »


No doubt these joined those who were founding apostles and prophets.

Indeed! St. Corenlius himself was consecrated as bishop of Caesarea, the Metropolis, after St. Zacchaeus the Publican.

The core group was the Seventy Christ Himself chose, in addition to the Twelve:

NKJ  Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go. (Luk 10:1 NKJ)

They grew to 120 in Ac 1:15 and its likely women weren't counted, but present regardless.

Luke 6:12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles.
Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also.
Luke 22:1  Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people.3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the Twelve.14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the Twelve Apostles with Him.
Luke's Acts:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.
26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

I know you think that St. Luke lost count, but that is only because you don't believe the Scripture, prefering your man-made tradition.

There are no successors to these founding apostles and prophets, once the Gospel was established, once the NT nearly completed, God stopped granting that authority to others:

He said otherwise through St. Paul to SS. Titus and Timothy: the episcopate is so great that the Apostle himself refers to himself as "presbyter," as has already been shown to you:
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

2 Peter 3:15"our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen."
That cuts too close to the bone for Mr. Persson. I have cited that scripture, not my own words, several times for proof of what we say, and what we have said since the time of the Apostles. But since it doesn't fit his ideas, he rejects these words of Scritpure.

He prefers to take upon himself a mantle he has woven himself, calling it the mantle of St. John, but "No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was." (Heb. 5:4). St. John, the son of Aaron, confered his mantle the Son of God when he baptized Him, as "it [was] proper for [this] to do this to fulfill all righteousness" (Mat. 3:15)

John 3:"22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized. 24 For John had not yet been thrown into prison.
25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”
27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
4:1....the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples)"

Christ called His Apostles to wear this mantle and take this honor he placed upon them, (John 20:21) "So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”" (Acts 1:)all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen...4while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

The Apostles "sent for the presbyters of the Church" (Acts 20:17), to admonish them before their depature (I Peter )"12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance"  "I Peter5:1-2 The presbyters which are among you I exhort, who am also an presbyter, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, serving as bishops, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind."  (II Timothy 1:)"6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands 77For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind...(11:)13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us." (Acts 20:28) "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you bishops. Be shepherds of the Church of God, which He bought with His own blood...32And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified...35I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive" [a verse not in the Gospel, but presured by Tradition]. Titus 1:5For this cause [the Apostles] left [the bishops] in Crete,"-and all the earth-"that [they] should set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain presbyters in every city, as [the Apostles] had appointed [the bishops]: 6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7For a bishop must be blameless"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13210.msg461145/topicseen.html#msg461145
In fact, so great is the episcopacy, the presbyters of Acts 15, that St. Peter, introduding himself as "an [note, btw: "a," not "the"] Apostle of Jesus Christ," nonetheless identifies himself as a "fellow presbyter" when he invokes himself as a witness of Christ and a partaker of His glory, to exhort his fellow presbyters, whom he identifies as the bishops (5:1-2), and the Apostle John, the disciple whom Christ loved, doesn't give his autority to his second and third epistles as neither the Disciple nor Apostle, but as "the presbyter."

"He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." Luke 10:16  You cannot have the Church's book without the Church.

Of course, you have the free will to preach or accept another Gospel.

The Church I know, so Christ I know and Paul I know, but who are you? You shouldn't wave the veil of Moses while invoking the name of Christ like a matador.  You can get hurt.
So the mantle of St. John is extended into the omophorios of the local bishop of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.
But since it doesn't fit Mr. Persson's ideas of his self calling, he rejects these words of Scritpure, and twists away.

He is jealous that we know what is taught in Scripture, "stand[ing] fast and hold[ing] the Traditions which [we] were taught, whether by word or [the Apostles'] epistle...to which He called [us] by [their] Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thess. 2:14-15) via their Traditions are completely sure, and have a complete knowledge.  Via his self made, man made tradition he is completely confused, and doesn't have a clue. "he walks disorderly and not according to the Tradition which [we] received from [the Apostles]" II Thess. 3:6.  The Apostles heard correctly:"that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies." (II Thess. 3:11). And we, as true followers of the Apostles and the sheep of their successors the Orthodox bishops, follow the Apostle's admonission "brethren, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle,...walking disorderly....[not] stand[ing] fast and hold[ing] the Traditions which [were] taught, whether by word or epistle... note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

As St. James, the Apostle and Brother of God, first bishop and Patriarch of Jerusalem admonishes us in closing his witness "19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
As St. Jude the Apostle, the "brother of James," admonishes us "17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh."

But Mr. Persson will have to accept this Scripture to benefit from it, rather than rejecting God's good gifts offered by the hand of His Church, to receive the Word of God, and so he can heed what it says confident of its the truth, rather than his own destruction.
Only proves we cannot go far from the apostles, if we are to learn what they  believed.

Because what they received, what they taught, what they passed on, what we stand firm in, what raditions we hold which were taught by the Apostles, whether by word, or by letter (II Thessalonians 2:15), what we-remembering them in all things, receiving their praise-hold firm, what traditions, even as the Apostles delivered to us (I Corinthians 11:2), because THAT differs from what those who walketh disorderly millennia after, and not after the Tradition which he received of the Apostles-Or rather, such novelties differ from the 'Faith of the Apostles-because of that differnce we are to hide our eyes from the unbroken cloud of witness which surround the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, so we can don the veil of Moses and walk in the way of the Pharisees? So we can follow someone who not only has not seen the light of Christ, but refuses to behold the radience of God's glory and look in the face of Christ, the icon of the invisible God and the express image of His person, and see the Father? (John 14:9; 2Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3)?

No thank you.

Mat. 15:14  "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Or into hellfire, whose gates shall never, by the divine word of God the Word, prevail against the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.

2Cor. 4:4But even if our Gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, Who is the icon of God, should shine on them. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

So, for us who have received the Apostles, we withdraw, as the Apostles commanded, from those that walk disorderly, and from those who do not walk after the Tradition which were received of the Apostles. II Thessalonians 3:6.

Since Mr. Persson wears the veil of Moses, he is not able to see beyond it, not even able to see the identification in the OT of Samuel on this side of the veil between this world and the next. Yet he fancies himself a Dante, mapping out the next world as if he had insider information. But (Mat. 13:)"35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
      “ I will open My mouth in parables;
       I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world."
...All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,...(13:)9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” 10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you [i.e. His Church, taught by the successors of the Apostles, the bishops] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given...33 Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”

The leaven of Apostolic dogma has risen in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is all leavened and fills all the earth. But Mr Persson has not“take[n] heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees," (Mat. 16:6, 12) citing their Talmud here as elsewhere, and prefering their Masoretic Text, not heading the Apostles' warning (I Corin. 5:) that "6[his] glorying is not good...not know[ing] that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?" and that he should "7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that [he] may be a new lump." The Apostles are "indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit,"-having passed on the Spirit of prophecy in the laying on of their hands on the Orthodox Catholic bishops-"have already judged (as though [they] were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." "For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us" something the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church centers our year on but I fear Mr. Persson does not celebrate "8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." The invitation is open, but Mr. Persson chooses to reject Scripture and turn down the invitation. "8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is." Gal. 5.

29The Spirit told Philip [who, like the bishops, had the Apostles hand laid on him, Acts 6:5-6; II Timoty 1:6-7; Titus 1:5-6], "Go to that chariot and stay near it."

 30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

 31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?"

But Mr. Persson does not believe this Scripture.
 
He reads and does not believe what he reads, so he doesn't have a clue what the Bible says.

We read the Bible and believe what the Church which wrote, canonized and preserved the Bible says, and the Fathers who testified for the Church in explaining the Scripture, standng firm and holding fast to the Traditions taught by the Apostles, whether by word or letter (II Thess. 2:15), so we know what the Bible says.

With God all things are possible, but the man Alfred Persson kicks against the goads, trying to make it impossible with his man made tradition, making God's way difficult, holding fast to any crooked ways, putting every obstacle to God reigning in his heart as Sovereign...one of the many voices sent by those preaching another Gospel.

Paul we know, and Christ we know, but, as Marc and the rest of Christ's One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church ask "who are you again?"

But I am the fool.
But not Christ's.

But being the fool, as you say, you reject Christ:
44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.[ 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe,I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

24 So they again called the man who was blind, and said to him, “Give God the glory! We know that this Man is a sinner.” 25 He answered and said, “Whether He is a sinner or not I do not know. One thing I know: that though I was blind, now I see.” 26 Then they said to him again, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?” 27 He answered them, “I told you already, and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become His disciples?” 28 Then they reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are Moses’ disciples. 29 We know that God spoke to Moses; as for this fellow, we do not know where He is from.” 30 The man answered and said to them, “Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes! 31 Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. 32 Since the world began it has been unheard of that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind. 33 If this Man were not from God, He could do nothing.” 34 They answered and said to him, “You were completely born in sins, and are you teaching us?” And they cast him out. 35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?” 36 He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” 37 And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.”
38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him. 39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.” 40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."

He speaks to us through His Church.

Luke 10:16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
because you do not believe the Scriptures, you reject those the Apostles sent, thereby rejecting Christ and He Who sent Him.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #781 on: October 06, 2010, 03:12:47 PM »
The Orthodox would have us believe in icon veneration, which is not part of the faith "once for all delivered" in the days of Jude, and therefore cannot be found in scripture.

We are to earnestly contend for "the faith" that existed in the days of Jude, the only way to do that is to deem everything men try to add to that faith  "pernicious novelty."

Prove it. You have no evidence St Jude didn't venerate icons. More Perssonism based on the Sola Scriptura heresy, which you also have not proven.

So it's a novelty, eh? Might want to tell St Luke.



Speechless be the lips of impious ones,
Those who do not reverence
Your great icon, the sacred one
Which is called Directress,
And was depicted for us
By one of the apostles,
Luke the Evangelist.

- Service of Small Paraklesis (part of Holy Tradition)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 03:20:08 PM by bogdan »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #782 on: October 06, 2010, 03:17:13 PM »
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)

The gifts of tongues, "other languages", was a sign to the Jews Jesus is the Way (1 Cor 14:22) and ceased to be distributed in the church at about the time the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD.

Oh? Where do you get that tradition? Can you cite a verse?

A careful reading of 1 Corinthians shows the gift was already ceasing when Paul wrote (1 Cor 13:8ff), most of the epistle concerned non Charismatic issues (c. 1-11) and its clear only a minority of folks there still had the gift:

Where do you get your statistics that a majority ever did?  At Pentecost at most 120, even by your count, spoke in tongues. But 3,000 joined the Church that day.

 
22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; (1Co 1:22 NKJ)
And Perssonism having neither, disappoints both. The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, of course, producing signs in profusion and transmitting the wisdom received of the Apostles, is sent to all nations, and has proved herself in all nations.

This is confirmed by the elementary fact a minority could not forbid a practice by the majority:

God and 1 makes a majority.  Truth is not up for a vote.  The heretic majority were overthrown by the Orthodox minority time and time again.  The Seven Ecumenical Councils were opposed by the majority following the state (the Third and Fifth Councils perhaps forming exceptions), but Orthodoxy triumphed.  Since Perssonism was founded in the 20th (or 21st?) century, I don't expect much of a sense of history from you on these matters.

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. (1Co 14:39 NKJ)

Some have argued this partial revelation would would remain till the Complete Revelation come:

10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
 (1Co 13:10-12 NKJ)

But Paul doesn't know when the end shall come, he only knows if it happens in his lifetime, then the partial would end.

Like saying, "When the ice cream truck arrives, dispensing gallons of ice cream, then having only scoops of it will be done away."

Its not a prediction the folks having only scoops of ice cream will persist till the truck comes, that isn't the subject. Its only saying when the truck comes, dispensing gallons of the stuff, then having only scoops of it will be done away, the "time of partial ice cream" will be done away.

This is more incoherent than usual to warrant a reply.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #783 on: October 06, 2010, 03:18:27 PM »
Quote
Its not a prediction the folks having only scoops of ice cream will persist till the truck comes, that isn't the subject. Its only saying when the truck comes, dispensing gallons of the stuff, then having only scoops of it will be done away, the "time of partial ice cream" will be done away.

 ???

 :o

What?

That's an "analogy", look it up to learn what that is, then reread what I said, you might comprehend it then.
If you have to explain it, then no, it's not.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #784 on: October 06, 2010, 03:25:48 PM »
Isa, what do you hope to accomplish by debating Alfred's interpretation of Scripture point by point long after it's become obvious that only sidetracks him from addressing the real issues: the fact that he has not yet proven the strength of his foundational doctrine of sola scriptura and the gross logical fallacies that make his arguments often nonsensical? Ironically, by opposing his interpretations of Scripture with your own, you actually grant that his interpretations may have some validity as an equal to yours, which only elevates his interpretations and denigrates yours.
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #785 on: October 06, 2010, 03:47:13 PM »
The Orthodox would have us believe in icon veneration, which is not part of the faith "once for all delivered" in the days of Jude, and therefore cannot be found in scripture.

We are to earnestly contend for "the faith" that existed in the days of Jude, the only way to do that is to deem everything men try to add to that faith  "pernicious novelty."



That pretty much puts that one to bed.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #786 on: October 06, 2010, 04:10:04 PM »
It seems someone forgot to condemn the Christians of the first centuries:

http://www.thenagain.info/webchron/westciv/earlychristian.html
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 04:16:15 PM by Fabio Leite »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #787 on: October 06, 2010, 09:51:13 PM »
I decided to Google where Orthodox Commentary might exist, and learned it doesn't, apart from the Ancient Christian Commentary I already have in my Logos library:

http://www.logos.com/

But I did find an Orthodox Catechism:

http://orthodoxcatechism.org/

AND was shocked to read this:

Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.
Underline mine.

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,...

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues
, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 (Act 1:14-4 NKJ)

 9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God
; And we shall reign on the earth."
 (Rev 5:9-10 NKJ)

The evidence for the tongues of fire only appearing on the apostles, is one of grammar:

Which you do not know.

I think John of Damascus would put up a sounder defense, citing scripture no doubt.

The phraseology "they were all with one accord in one place seem wrong when applied only to the twelve, but to the 120, natural.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #788 on: October 06, 2010, 10:12:12 PM »
Maybe you're too easily shocked, Alfred, this is standard orthodox (little "o") teaching in all the ancient apostolic churches.  It didn't really come into question till long after the Reformation.
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #789 on: October 06, 2010, 10:37:33 PM »
In thread after thread, he continues to try to cite Orthodox saints in convoluted anti-Orthodox arguments. First, on another thread, he claimed St. Athanasius was one of his heroes.  ::) Now he says St. John of Damascus would have defended Alfred's side of the debate.  ??? Why does he keep doing this? Doesn't he know they are both considered Orthodox saints? Does he actually think that just by using someone's name, he drafts them into agreeing with him?

That's not how it works.


http://www.stjohnd.org/

http://orthodoxwiki.org/John_of_Damascus


http://www.stathanasius.org/

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasius_of_Alexandria


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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #790 on: October 07, 2010, 04:59:32 AM »
Isa, what do you hope to accomplish by debating Alfred's interpretation of Scripture point by point long after it's become obvious that only sidetracks him from addressing the real issues: the fact that he has not yet proven the strength of his foundational doctrine of sola scriptura and the gross logical fallacies that make his arguments often nonsensical? Ironically, by opposing his interpretations of Scripture with your own, you actually grant that his interpretations may have some validity as an equal to yours, which only elevates his interpretations and denigrates yours.

You're on. I just noticed an article "The Unbiblical Doctrine of Sola Scriptura, Written by David Wooten", I will refute.

Haven't read it yet, but I'm certain it will be easy to dispense with its fallacies.

Unfortunately I'm a little busy right now...so it will be some time before I begin...but I'll treat it point by point.

Hopefully some of you will take the opportunity to learn how to be a real apologist for the Orthodox faith...move beyond the "you're wrong...you're stupid...you're a cultist...you're a ___ ___ ___ (fill in the blanks)" canned response to every statement I make.

As much as I disagree with John of Damascus, at least he cites scripture for his beliefs...at least he is an apologist in the tradition of the fathers, citing the reasons why he believes as he does, and the scripture supporting the reason. You don't hear him denigrating scripture proof texts as some of you are wont to do.

As it is written:

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 KJV)


In case you are wondering, I was going to discuss Orthodox disbelieving the scripture re the Millennium reign of Christ:

NKJ  Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6 NKJ)

And the nonsense about the lake of fire being eternal for all, regardless the gravity of their sin, which renders the following threat of ETERNAL torment for accepting the mark, without meaning:

 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev 14:11 KJV)

If all are tormented eternally anyway, then accepting the mark doesn't change this.

The threat of "eternal torment for accepting the mark" REQUIRES there is "less than eternal torment" for lesser offenses.
 
But I will hold off until after my refutation of that article against sola scriptura.

So you gents might want to brush up on those subjects also...prepare to be refuted.

ps:

 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Mat 25:46 KJV)

Eternal punishment is not the same as "eternal torment," the punishment (sentence, judgment) can be irreversible (eternal) without necessitating the actual torment be eternal.

This is why Paul speaks of one's place before the face of God being eternally destroyed...and not eternal torment:

 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2Th 1:9 KJV)


This is why the lake of fire "is the second death," i.e., the death from which there is no resurrection, the same as "die the death"

 4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. (Mat 15:4 KJV)

Satan and his angels, all who accept the mark, the vile who merit it, their torment is eternal, but some among mankind are tormented only for a time in hideous resurrected forms in Gehenna (a garbage dump) aka, "the lake of fire" (imagery connoting the experience will be like liquid fire, a furnace of fire), and then cease to exist:

 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. (Mal 4:3 KJV)


Satan doesn't rule in hell, he also will be bound hand and foot, and suffer total impotence as well as intense fiery torment, eternally.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 05:31:36 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #791 on: October 07, 2010, 08:58:09 AM »
Sound teaching is eager to avoid this sin of pride manifested in thought: just as eager as it is to attack with words the teacher of pride himself. Sound teaching does not promote him by imitating his arrogance.... Instead it promotes humility, the mother and teacher of all virtues. It preaches humility in words and manifests humility in its actions.

--St Gregory the Great
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:59:42 AM by bogdan »

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #792 on: October 07, 2010, 10:50:21 AM »
Hmm, well, Alfred, maybe before you start teaching the Orthodox that what they believe about Hell is wrong, you should take a little time to find out what they actually believe - it may not be what you think.

(Sort of like when you went to such great lengths to convince them that the "Rock" wasn't really St. Peter, to which most of them responded, "uh ... right ... and ?"  :D )
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 11:03:25 AM by theistgal »
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #793 on: October 07, 2010, 11:11:29 AM »
As much as I disagree with John of Damascus, at least he cites scripture for his beliefs...at least he is an apologist in the tradition of the fathers, citing the reasons why he believes as he does, and the scripture supporting the reason. You don't hear him denigrating scripture proof texts as some of you are wont to do.

Does your logos.com software cite any Saint recognized by "non 'western Churches' " other than St. John of Damascus or St. Athanasius?   ???

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #794 on: October 07, 2010, 11:40:50 AM »
The evidence for the tongues of fire only appearing on the apostles, is one of grammar:

Which you do not know.

I think John of Damascus would put up a sounder defense, citing scripture no doubt.

No doubt he would point out your failure to do so:
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)

The gifts of tongues, "other languages", was a sign to the Jews Jesus is the Way (1 Cor 14:22) and ceased to be distributed in the church at about the time the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD.

Oh? Where do you get that tradition? Can you cite a verse?

There are no successors to these founding apostles and prophets, once the Gospel was established, once the NT nearly completed, God stopped granting that authority to others:

He said otherwise through St. Paul to SS. Titus and Timothy: the episcopate is so great that the Apostle himself refers to himself as "presbyter," as has already been shown to you:
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

2 Peter 3:15"our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen."
That cuts too close to the bone for Mr. Persson. I have cited that scripture, not my own words, several times for proof of what we say, and what we have said since the time of the Apostles. But since it doesn't fit his ideas, he rejects these words of Scritpure.

He prefers to take upon himself a mantle he has woven himself, calling it the mantle of St. John, but "No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was." (Heb. 5:4). St. John, the son of Aaron, confered his mantle the Son of God when he baptized Him, as "it [was] proper for [this] to do this to fulfill all righteousness" (Mat. 3:15)

John 3:"22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized. 24 For John had not yet been thrown into prison.
25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”
27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
4:1....the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples)"

Christ called His Apostles to wear this mantle and take this honor he placed upon them, (John 20:21) "So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”" (Acts 1:)all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen...4while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

The Apostles "sent for the presbyters of the Church" (Acts 20:17), to admonish them before their depature (I Peter )"12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance"  "I Peter5:1-2 The presbyters which are among you I exhort, who am also an presbyter, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, serving as bishops, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind."  (II Timothy 1:)"6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands 77For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind...(11:)13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us." (Acts 20:28) "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you bishops. Be shepherds of the Church of God, which He bought with His own blood...32And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified...35I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive" [a verse not in the Gospel, but presured by Tradition]. Titus 1:5For this cause [the Apostles] left [the bishops] in Crete,"-and all the earth-"that [they] should set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain presbyters in every city, as [the Apostles] had appointed [the bishops]: 6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7For a bishop must be blameless"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13210.msg461145/topicseen.html#msg461145
In fact, so great is the episcopacy, the presbyters of Acts 15, that St. Peter, introduding himself as "an [note, btw: "a," not "the"] Apostle of Jesus Christ," nonetheless identifies himself as a "fellow presbyter" when he invokes himself as a witness of Christ and a partaker of His glory, to exhort his fellow presbyters, whom he identifies as the bishops (5:1-2), and the Apostle John, the disciple whom Christ loved, doesn't give his autority to his second and third epistles as neither the Disciple nor Apostle, but as "the presbyter."

"He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." Luke 10:16  You cannot have the Church's book without the Church.

Of course, you have the free will to preach or accept another Gospel.

The Church I know, so Christ I know and Paul I know, but who are you? You shouldn't wave the veil of Moses while invoking the name of Christ like a matador.  You can get hurt.
So the mantle of St. John is extended into the omophorios of the local bishop of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.
But since it doesn't fit Mr. Persson's ideas of his self calling, he rejects these words of Scritpure, and twists away.

He is jealous that we know what is taught in Scripture, "stand[ing] fast and hold[ing] the Traditions which [we] were taught, whether by word or [the Apostles'] epistle...to which He called [us] by [their] Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thess. 2:14-15) via their Traditions are completely sure, and have a complete knowledge.  Via his self made, man made tradition he is completely confused, and doesn't have a clue. "he walks disorderly and not according to the Tradition which [we] received from [the Apostles]" II Thess. 3:6.  The Apostles heard correctly:"that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies." (II Thess. 3:11). And we, as true followers of the Apostles and the sheep of their successors the Orthodox bishops, follow the Apostle's admonission "brethren, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle,...walking disorderly....[not] stand[ing] fast and hold[ing] the Traditions which [were] taught, whether by word or epistle... note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

As St. James, the Apostle and Brother of God, first bishop and Patriarch of Jerusalem admonishes us in closing his witness "19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
As St. Jude the Apostle, the "brother of James," admonishes us "17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh."

But Mr. Persson will have to accept this Scripture to benefit from it, rather than rejecting God's good gifts offered by the hand of His Church, to receive the Word of God, and so he can heed what it says confident of its the truth, rather than his own destruction.
Only proves we cannot go far from the apostles, if we are to learn what they  believed.

Because what they received, what they taught, what they passed on, what we stand firm in, what raditions we hold which were taught by the Apostles, whether by word, or by letter (II Thessalonians 2:15), what we-remembering them in all things, receiving their praise-hold firm, what traditions, even as the Apostles delivered to us (I Corinthians 11:2), because THAT differs from what those who walketh disorderly millennia after, and not after the Tradition which he received of the Apostles-Or rather, such novelties differ from the 'Faith of the Apostles-because of that differnce we are to hide our eyes from the unbroken cloud of witness which surround the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, so we can don the veil of Moses and walk in the way of the Pharisees? So we can follow someone who not only has not seen the light of Christ, but refuses to behold the radience of God's glory and look in the face of Christ, the icon of the invisible God and the express image of His person, and see the Father? (John 14:9; 2Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3)?

No thank you.

Mat. 15:14  "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Or into hellfire, whose gates shall never, by the divine word of God the Word, prevail against the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.

2Cor. 4:4But even if our Gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, Who is the icon of God, should shine on them. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

So, for us who have received the Apostles, we withdraw, as the Apostles commanded, from those that walk disorderly, and from those who do not walk after the Tradition which were received of the Apostles. II Thessalonians 3:6.

Since Mr. Persson wears the veil of Moses, he is not able to see beyond it, not even able to see the identification in the OT of Samuel on this side of the veil between this world and the next. Yet he fancies himself a Dante, mapping out the next world as if he had insider information. But (Mat. 13:)"35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
      “ I will open My mouth in parables;
       I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world."
...All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,...(13:)9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” 10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you [i.e. His Church, taught by the successors of the Apostles, the bishops] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given...33 Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”

The leaven of Apostolic dogma has risen in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is all leavened and fills all the earth. But Mr Persson has not“take[n] heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees," (Mat. 16:6, 12) citing their Talmud here as elsewhere, and prefering their Masoretic Text, not heading the Apostles' warning (I Corin. 5:) that "6[his] glorying is not good...not know[ing] that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?" and that he should "7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that [he] may be a new lump." The Apostles are "indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit,"-having passed on the Spirit of prophecy in the laying on of their hands on the Orthodox Catholic bishops-"have already judged (as though [they] were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." "For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us" something the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church centers our year on but I fear Mr. Persson does not celebrate "8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." The invitation is open, but Mr. Persson chooses to reject Scripture and turn down the invitation. "8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is." Gal. 5.

29The Spirit told Philip [who, like the bishops, had the Apostles hand laid on him, Acts 6:5-6; II Timoty 1:6-7; Titus 1:5-6], "Go to that chariot and stay near it."

 30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

 31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?"

But Mr. Persson does not believe this Scripture.
 
He reads and does not believe what he reads, so he doesn't have a clue what the Bible says.

We read the Bible and believe what the Church which wrote, canonized and preserved the Bible says, and the Fathers who testified for the Church in explaining the Scripture, standng firm and holding fast to the Traditions taught by the Apostles, whether by word or letter (II Thess. 2:15), so we know what the Bible says.

With God all things are possible, but the man Alfred Persson kicks against the goads, trying to make it impossible with his man made tradition, making God's way difficult, holding fast to any crooked ways, putting every obstacle to God reigning in his heart as Sovereign...one of the many voices sent by those preaching another Gospel.

Paul we know, and Christ we know, but, as Marc and the rest of Christ's One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church ask "who are you again?"

But I am the fool.
But not Christ's.

But being the fool, as you say, you reject Christ:
44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.[ 46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe,I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

24 So they again called the man who was blind, and said to him, “Give God the glory! We know that this Man is a sinner.” 25 He answered and said, “Whether He is a sinner or not I do not know. One thing I know: that though I was blind, now I see.” 26 Then they said to him again, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?” 27 He answered them, “I told you already, and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become His disciples?” 28 Then they reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are Moses’ disciples. 29 We know that God spoke to Moses; as for this fellow, we do not know where He is from.” 30 The man answered and said to them, “Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes! 31 Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. 32 Since the world began it has been unheard of that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind. 33 If this Man were not from God, He could do nothing.” 34 They answered and said to him, “You were completely born in sins, and are you teaching us?” And they cast him out. 35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?” 36 He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” 37 And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.”
38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him. 39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.” 40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."

He speaks to us through His Church.

Luke 10:16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
because you do not believe the Scriptures, you reject those the Apostles sent, thereby rejecting Christ and He Who sent Him.

Scirpture was cited:
The evidence for the tongues of fire only appearing on the apostles, is one of grammar:

 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
NKJ  Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 (Act 1:26-1 NKJ)

Chapter & verse divisions are not part of the original Greek, therefore the referent of "they were all..in one place" could be Matthias and the eleven apostles.

Against that the phrase "with one accord" ( ὁμοθυμαδὸν) indicates the referent is to be found earlier in the context:

 14 These all continued with one accord ( ὁμοθυμαδὸν)in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,
 (Act 1:14-15 NKJ)

BECAUSE These 120 became the FOUNDING apostles and prophets of the church, they had to have received the Holy Spirit equal to the Twelve (cp Acts 10:47):

The "these all"-as you correctly pointed out (proving a broken clock is correct twice a day), the verse divisions are not original-are indicated in the previous verse:
And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James.

Hmmm. I've seen that list before.
Quote
Luke 6:12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles: 14 Simon, whom He also named Peter, and Andrew his brother; James and John; Philip and Bartholomew; 15 Matthew and Thomas; James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called the Zealot; 16 Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.
I thought so, the first part of St. Luke's work.
Hmmm. That "Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor" is missing in Acts. Wonder what happened to him? Maybe St. Luke tells us in the second half of his Gospel a/k/a "Acts"
Quote
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:


      ‘ Let his dwelling place be desolate,
      And let no one live in it’;

   and,


      ‘ Let another take his bishoprick.

21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Hmmm. Perhaps you think St. Luke couldn't count, and was short 109 Apostles, but that is because you do not believe the Scritpures.

That you know neither the Scriptures nor Greek grammar is shown by the fact that you even posted the evidence in front of your face:
The evidence for the tongues of fire only appearing on the apostles, is one of grammar:

 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
NKJ  Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 (Act 1:26-1 NKJ)

Chapter & verse divisions are not part of the original Greek, therefore the referent of "they were all..in one place" could be Matthias and the eleven apostles.

Against that the phrase "with one accord" ( ὁμοθυμαδὸν) indicates the referent is to be found earlier in the context:

 14 These all continued with one accord ( ὁμοθυμαδὸν)in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,
 (Act 1:14-15 NKJ)

The verse you twist, Acts 2:1 reads, with the verse IMMEDIATELY before it reads:
καὶ ἔδωκαν κλήρους αὐτῶν, καὶ ἔπεσεν ὁ κλῆρος ἐπὶ Ματθίαν, καὶ συγκατεψηφίσθη μετὰ τῶν ἕνδεκα ἀποστόλων
Καὶ ἐν τῷ συμπληροῦσθαι τὴν ἡμέραν τῆς πεντηκοστῆς ἦσαν ἅπαντες ὁμοθυμαδὸν ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτό

The referent indeed is earlier in the context:τῶν ἕνδεκα ἀποστόλωνthe TWELVE Apostles, coming IMMEDIATELY before.

It comes after too:2:15Σταθεὶς δὲ Πέτρος σὺν τοῖς ἕνδεκα But Peter, standing up with the eleven.

Obviously, you not only do not believe the Scripture, nor know Greek grammar, but moreover filter the English text through your man made tradition.


They grew to 120 in Ac 1:15 and its likely women weren't counted, but present regardless.

Luke 6:12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles.
Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also.
Luke 22:1  Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people.3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the Twelve.14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the Twelve Apostles with Him.
Luke's Acts1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.
26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

I know you think that St. Luke lost count, but that is only because you don't believe the Scripture, prefering your man-made tradition.


The phraseology "they were all with one accord in one place seem wrong when applied only to the twelve, but to the 120, natural.

Are you trying to prove the Scriptures correct?
I Cor. 2: 6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 16.  But we have the mind of Christ.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #795 on: October 07, 2010, 02:58:13 PM »
Isa, what do you hope to accomplish by debating Alfred's interpretation of Scripture point by point long after it's become obvious that only sidetracks him from addressing the real issues: the fact that he has not yet proven the strength of his foundational doctrine of sola scriptura and the gross logical fallacies that make his arguments often nonsensical? Ironically, by opposing his interpretations of Scripture with your own, you actually grant that his interpretations may have some validity as an equal to yours, which only elevates his interpretations and denigrates yours.

You're on. I just noticed an article "The Unbiblical Doctrine of Sola Scriptura, Written by David Wooten", I will refute.

Haven't read it yet, but I'm certain it will be easy to dispense with its fallacies.
First, you might try demonstrating a lot more humility than to show such disrespect for one of our own. >:(
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 03:05:17 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #796 on: October 07, 2010, 03:19:58 PM »
Some of you may know the Sears classification of merchandise: "good, better and best." It may be appropriate to use such a scheme in the case of Mr. AP. How about?:

Bad: Earnest but wrong.
Worse: Earnest but deluded.
Worst: Wolf in sheep's clothing.

Each time that Mr. AP interacted with y'all, I thought to myself that he was sliding steadily toward to bottom classification. I think he has hit "worse" and is approaching "worst." It is always possible that there is an interim level between those two, such as Worse-Worst, that adds "immune to reason" and "unable to comprehend." However, he himself has emphasized his extraordinary reasoning abilities, so that this intermediate level may not apply to him. Nonetheless, I will refrain from applying the last classification, as that would indeed constitute an ad hominem (and I am a chicken when it comes to our Moderators).
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 03:20:37 PM by Second Chance »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #797 on: October 07, 2010, 05:04:23 PM »
Hmm, well, Alfred, maybe before you start teaching the Orthodox that what they believe about Hell is wrong, you should take a little time to find out what they actually believe - it may not be what you think.

(Sort of like when you went to such great lengths to convince them that the "Rock" wasn't really St. Peter, to which most of them responded, "uh ... right ... and ?"  :D )

Let me know if this isn't Orthodox teaching (underline mine):


Eternal Life and Eternal Hell

The resurrection of the dead, the change of the living and the final judgement will be followed by eternal life or eternal hell. Hell means punishment.

Some, like the believers in the millennium, believe that after the final judgement the sinners will be destroyed. Considerably more believe that after the final judgement the sinners will be punished for a certain period of time, will repent and be saved. Neither one is correct. Holy Scripture teaches very clearly that the righteous will enjoy eternal life and happiness, whereas the sinners will be being punished. Reading the twenty-fifth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew we see that all the dead and the living will be presented before the unbribable Judge. We will be divided into the just and the sinners, just as the sheep are separated from the goats. Then Christ will say to the just, who will be on His right-hand side: "Come, O blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34). And these will inherit the kingdom of God. Then He will turn to His left towards the sinners and He will say to them: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). And behold the result. "And they [the sinners] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:46). Behold then that the just will live in eternal life and happiness. The sinners will live in eternal punishment and despair. These are the words of Christ. Those who believe and teach otherwise do not profess the truth. They do not present things as Christ, "Who is the truth and the way and the life," said.


http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Catechism/catetern.htm
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #798 on: October 07, 2010, 05:38:31 PM »
Hmm, well, Alfred, maybe before you start teaching the Orthodox that what they believe about Hell is wrong, you should take a little time to find out what they actually believe - it may not be what you think.

(Sort of like when you went to such great lengths to convince them that the "Rock" wasn't really St. Peter, to which most of them responded, "uh ... right ... and ?"  :D )

Let me know if this isn't Orthodox teaching (underline mine):


Eternal Life and Eternal Hell

The resurrection of the dead, the change of the living and the final judgement will be followed by eternal life or eternal hell. Hell means punishment.

Some, like the believers in the millennium, believe that after the final judgement the sinners will be destroyed. Considerably more believe that after the final judgement the sinners will be punished for a certain period of time, will repent and be saved. Neither one is correct. Holy Scripture teaches very clearly that the righteous will enjoy eternal life and happiness, whereas the sinners will be being punished. Reading the twenty-fifth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew we see that all the dead and the living will be presented before the unbribable Judge. We will be divided into the just and the sinners, just as the sheep are separated from the goats. Then Christ will say to the just, who will be on His right-hand side: "Come, O blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34). And these will inherit the kingdom of God. Then He will turn to His left towards the sinners and He will say to them: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). And behold the result. "And they [the sinners] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:46). Behold then that the just will live in eternal life and happiness. The sinners will live in eternal punishment and despair. These are the words of Christ. Those who believe and teach otherwise do not profess the truth. They do not present things as Christ, "Who is the truth and the way and the life," said.


http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Catechism/catetern.htm

Well, yes, but there's a lot more to it than that.

For example, what do you think the fires of Hell are composed of?
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #799 on: October 07, 2010, 08:33:51 PM »
Hmm, well, Alfred, maybe before you start teaching the Orthodox that what they believe about Hell is wrong, you should take a little time to find out what they actually believe - it may not be what you think.

(Sort of like when you went to such great lengths to convince them that the "Rock" wasn't really St. Peter, to which most of them responded, "uh ... right ... and ?"  :D )

Let me know if this isn't Orthodox teaching (underline mine):


Eternal Life and Eternal Hell

The resurrection of the dead, the change of the living and the final judgement will be followed by eternal life or eternal hell. Hell means punishment.

Some, like the believers in the millennium, believe that after the final judgement the sinners will be destroyed. Considerably more believe that after the final judgement the sinners will be punished for a certain period of time, will repent and be saved. Neither one is correct. Holy Scripture teaches very clearly that the righteous will enjoy eternal life and happiness, whereas the sinners will be being punished. Reading the twenty-fifth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew we see that all the dead and the living will be presented before the unbribable Judge. We will be divided into the just and the sinners, just as the sheep are separated from the goats. Then Christ will say to the just, who will be on His right-hand side: "Come, O blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34). And these will inherit the kingdom of God. Then He will turn to His left towards the sinners and He will say to them: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). And behold the result. "And they [the sinners] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:46). Behold then that the just will live in eternal life and happiness. The sinners will live in eternal punishment and despair. These are the words of Christ. Those who believe and teach otherwise do not profess the truth. They do not present things as Christ, "Who is the truth and the way and the life," said.


http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Catechism/catetern.htm

Well, yes, but there's a lot more to it than that.

For example, what do you think the fires of Hell are composed of?

I don't consider that material, its enough we know it burns like fire, like being in a lake of fire, a furnace:

 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 13:42 KJV)

There is much to commend in Orthodox view of these things...I consider them closer to apostolic doctrine than the rest of the church...

But reliance on the fathers prevents them from going all the way back to apostolic doctrine.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #800 on: October 07, 2010, 08:40:52 PM »
Quote
But reliance on the fathers prevents them from going all the way back to apostolic doctrine.

According to who/what? Perssonism?


You don't even read the fathers and so how would you know? How could you know? You read too many conflicting and forever changing protestant commentaries about what the Bible means when it says something, and so how can you talk about us not going way back when you don't even go way back.

You depend on the forever changing protestant commentaries! We depend on more stable commentaries........the church fathers.....well, they are way more stable than the chaos we see in modern North American protestantism.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:41:21 PM by jnorm888 »
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #801 on: October 07, 2010, 08:42:54 PM »
Quote
But reliance on the fathers prevents them from going all the way back to apostolic doctrine.

 ::)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #802 on: October 07, 2010, 10:26:31 PM »
There is much to commend in Orthodox view of these things...I consider them closer to apostolic doctrine than the rest of the church...
Christ we know and Paul we know and the rest of the Apostles we know, but who are you?
But reliance on the fathers prevents them from going all the way back to apostolic doctrine.
We received the Apostolic Tradition-their doctrines and Scripture-and have held fast to them. Like Beltshazzar and the Temple utensils, you take our Scripture and use it to praise the traditions of the man Alfred Persson.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #803 on: October 07, 2010, 11:46:45 PM »
Hmm, well, Alfred, maybe before you start teaching the Orthodox that what they believe about Hell is wrong, you should take a little time to find out what they actually believe - it may not be what you think.

(Sort of like when you went to such great lengths to convince them that the "Rock" wasn't really St. Peter, to which most of them responded, "uh ... right ... and ?"  :D )

Let me know if this isn't Orthodox teaching (underline mine):


Eternal Life and Eternal Hell

The resurrection of the dead, the change of the living and the final judgement will be followed by eternal life or eternal hell. Hell means punishment.

Some, like the believers in the millennium, believe that after the final judgement the sinners will be destroyed. Considerably more believe that after the final judgement the sinners will be punished for a certain period of time, will repent and be saved. Neither one is correct. Holy Scripture teaches very clearly that the righteous will enjoy eternal life and happiness, whereas the sinners will be being punished. Reading the twenty-fifth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew we see that all the dead and the living will be presented before the unbribable Judge. We will be divided into the just and the sinners, just as the sheep are separated from the goats. Then Christ will say to the just, who will be on His right-hand side: "Come, O blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34). And these will inherit the kingdom of God. Then He will turn to His left towards the sinners and He will say to them: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). And behold the result. "And they [the sinners] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:46). Behold then that the just will live in eternal life and happiness. The sinners will live in eternal punishment and despair. These are the words of Christ. Those who believe and teach otherwise do not profess the truth. They do not present things as Christ, "Who is the truth and the way and the life," said.


http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Catechism/catetern.htm

Well, yes, but there's a lot more to it than that.

For example, what do you think the fires of Hell are composed of?

I don't consider that material, its enough we know it burns like fire, like being in a lake of fire, a furnace:

 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 13:42 KJV)

There is much to commend in Orthodox view of these things...I consider them closer to apostolic doctrine than the rest of the church...

But reliance on the fathers prevents them from going all the way back to apostolic doctrine.
A manifestation of your unproven assertion that Apostolic doctrine is contained solely in the Scriptures? The only defense I've seen you make of this thesis thus far has been a hasty generalization from your interpretation of history. "Human nature doesn't allow divine words not be written down."
« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 12:02:18 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #804 on: October 08, 2010, 03:18:18 AM »
Hmm, well, Alfred, maybe before you start teaching the Orthodox that what they believe about Hell is wrong, you should take a little time to find out what they actually believe - it may not be what you think.

(Sort of like when you went to such great lengths to convince them that the "Rock" wasn't really St. Peter, to which most of them responded, "uh ... right ... and ?"  :D )

Let me know if this isn't Orthodox teaching (underline mine):


Eternal Life and Eternal Hell

The resurrection of the dead, the change of the living and the final judgement will be followed by eternal life or eternal hell. Hell means punishment.

Some, like the believers in the millennium, believe that after the final judgement the sinners will be destroyed. Considerably more believe that after the final judgement the sinners will be punished for a certain period of time, will repent and be saved. Neither one is correct. Holy Scripture teaches very clearly that the righteous will enjoy eternal life and happiness, whereas the sinners will be being punished. Reading the twenty-fifth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew we see that all the dead and the living will be presented before the unbribable Judge. We will be divided into the just and the sinners, just as the sheep are separated from the goats. Then Christ will say to the just, who will be on His right-hand side: "Come, O blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34). And these will inherit the kingdom of God. Then He will turn to His left towards the sinners and He will say to them: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). And behold the result. "And they [the sinners] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:46). Behold then that the just will live in eternal life and happiness. The sinners will live in eternal punishment and despair. These are the words of Christ. Those who believe and teach otherwise do not profess the truth. They do not present things as Christ, "Who is the truth and the way and the life," said.


http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Catechism/catetern.htm

Well, yes, but there's a lot more to it than that.

For example, what do you think the fires of Hell are composed of?

I don't consider that material, its enough we know it burns like fire, like being in a lake of fire, a furnace:

 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 13:42 KJV)

There is much to commend in Orthodox view of these things...I consider them closer to apostolic doctrine than the rest of the church...

But reliance on the fathers prevents them from going all the way back to apostolic doctrine.
A manifestation of your unproven assertion that Apostolic doctrine is contained solely in the Scriptures? The only defense I've seen you make of this thesis thus far has been a hasty generalization from your interpretation of history. "Human nature doesn't allow divine words not be written down."

Its possible to assemble eschatological details as one would pieces of a puzzle. You cannot accomplish this if extra biblical conclusion apriori determine the shape of the pieces, altering the picture.

I make no claim of genius. Christ gave us the key to open the door when He said:

NKJ  Matthew 13:52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old."
 (Mat 13:52 NKJ)

Therefore Jewish eschatology is relevant, Christ Himself said so. All the ambiguity about the first resurrection of those who believe now in this life, who become kings and priests, and those resurrected after the 1,000 years have ended, who also are written in the lambs book of life and so are saved, and those not written in the book cast into the lake of fire, who die the death never to be resurrected again, is cleared up by understanding what Paul believed as a Pharisee.


NKJ  Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!"
 (Act 23:6 NKJ)

Once that Jewish tradition is understood, then the NT statements become clear, form a complete picture. The resolution of ambiguity, the simplicity of the hypothesis, its elegance, its conformity to the detail painted by scripture, proves this is the correct view.

That the fathers lost this, is seen by their progressive confusion about paradise, and hades, so they confused hades of the unsaved elect, who aren't saved until the day of the LORD Jesus at the Resurrection, as being a purgatory for believers who believed now in this life...

All who confess Christ now in this life, become priests and kings, and Jesus saves them to the uttermost, they  immediately go into paradise upon death, a team of angels fights off the powers of darkness, and gathers them to their people in third heaven.

ONLY those who die unbelievers go to hell. Among these are two classes, the elect and non elect, those written in the book of life, and those not written. Those who are written recall the preaching, or become aware of the Gospel by other means, and live according to God in the spirit. In the Day of the LORD Jesus, at the final resurrection, they enter life:

NKJ  1 Peter 4:6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
 (1Pe 4:6 NKJ)

NKJ  1 Corinthians 5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
 (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 (Rev 20:4-1 KJV)

These rise from hell into life, because they were written in the book of life:

 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 (Rev 21:27-1 KJV)

Only those not written in the book, are lost forever.

The later fathers you folks listen to most, are the least dependable on this.

For example, the millennial kingdom is a consensus in the earliest fathers, yet you reject it following later fathers, contrary to the elementary principle the earliest should be the best, being the closest to the apostles themselves.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 03:39:51 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #805 on: October 08, 2010, 04:29:59 AM »
Its ironic I, a sola scripturaist, who places scripture in its Jewish context to understand it, is thus enlightened by  the oral traditions Christ and His apostles knew intimately, while you, who profess adherence to scripture and tradition, reject the very oral tradition known to the apostles, in favor of Gentile conjecture about the Jewish Bible.

Just in case any are interested, here is a sample of the Jewish oral tradition Paul and all the disciples knew, that sheds light on what the NT says about the after life. The views aren't precisely the same, but the similarity is sufficient to shed much light on every obscure expression:

"The locus classicus on the subject reads: 'The School of Shammai declared, There are three classes with respect to the Day of Judgment: the perfectly righteous, the completely wicked, and the average people. Those in the first class are forthwith inscribed and sealed for eternal life. Those in the second class are forthwith inscribed and sealed for Gehinnom; as it is said, "Many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting contempt" (Dan. xii. 2). The third class will descend to Gehinnom and cry out (from the pains endured there) and then ascend; as it is said, "I will bring the third part through fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on My name and I will hear them" (Zech. xiii.9). Concerning them Hannah said, "The Lord killeth and maketh alive, He bringeth down to Sheol and bringeth up" (1 Sam. ii. 6). The School of Hillel quoted, "He is plenteous in mercy" (Exod. xxxiv. 6); He inclines towards mercy; and concerning them said David, "I love the Lord, because He hath heard my voice and my supplications" (Ps. cxvi. I). The whole of that Psalm was composed by David about them: "I was brought low and He saved me" (ibid. 6).  The sinners of Israel with their bodies and the sinners of the Gentiles with their bodies descend to Gehinnom and are judged there for twelve months. After twelve months their bodies are destroyed, and their souls burnt and scattered by a wind under the soles of the feet of the righteous; as it is said, "Ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet" (Mal. iv. 3). But the sectaries, informers, epicureans who denied the Torah* and denied the Resurrection, they who separated themselves from the ways of the community, they who set their dread in the land of the living,** and they who like Jeroboam the son of Nabat and his associates, sinned and caused the multitude to sin (cf. 1 Kings xiv. 16), will descend to Gehinnom and be judged there generations on generations; as it is said, "They shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched" (Is. lxvi. 24). Gehinnom will cease but they will not cease (to suffer); as it is said, "Their form shall be for Sheol to consume that there be no habitation for it" (Ps. xlix. 14) Concerning them said Hannah, "They that strive with the Lord shall be broken to pieces" (1 Sam. ii.10). R. Isaac B. Abin said, Their faces will be black like the bottom of a pot.' (R.H. 16b et seq.)    

 

We gather from this extract that in the first century one of the principal Schools, influenced by a verse in Daniel, assigned the utterly wicked to eternal punishment; but the other School found such a doctrine incompatible with Divine mercy. Sinners must be penalized. They undergo twelve months of pain and then suffer annihilation because they are unworthy of entrance into Gan Eden. They who have been exceptionally wicked stay in Gehinnom for 'generations on generations.' That this expression does not signify eternity is clear from the statement that 'Gehinnom will cease.' they will not, after their sufferings there, undergo extinction, but will continue in existence as conscious entities—how and where is not explained—in a perpetual state of remorse."    

[footnotes]    

*i.e., its heavenly origin; see p. 146.    

**The phrase is defined in the Talmud as 'a president who instilled excessive fear into the community he governed, but not for the sake of Heaven,' i.e. he did it for personal motives."-Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, pp.377-378.    

 





"The severity's of Gehinnom may be mitigated, or even altogether escaped, by various means. Prominent among them is the fact that a person has undergone circumcision, unless he had been exceptionally wicked. 'In the Hereafter Abraham will sit at the entrance of Gehinnom and will not allow any circumcised Israelite to descend into it... 

The principal element which exists there for the torment of the sinful is fire, but a fire of abnormal intensity." -Everyman's Talmud, Abraham Cohen, Schocken Books, New York, 1995, p. 381, 380. 

Compare:


  22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
 (Luk 16:22-25 KJV)



9  And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 

10  And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.-Mat. 3:9-10 KJV 

 

« Last Edit: October 08, 2010, 04:36:24 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline MyMapleStory

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #806 on: October 08, 2010, 05:22:12 AM »
Yet that "gentile" tradition is what establishes your 27 canon bible, Iraneaus, St Athanasius, I doubt they were experts in hebrew religion, no they were Bishops of the church, of the traditions passed down to them which gave you the bible. But hey, each to his own right?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #807 on: October 08, 2010, 05:57:25 AM »
But reliance on the fathers prevents them from going all the way back to apostolic doctrine.
A manifestation of your unproven assertion that Apostolic doctrine is contained solely in the Scriptures? The only defense I've seen you make of this thesis thus far has been a hasty generalization from your interpretation of history. "Human nature doesn't allow divine words not be written down."
Only those not written in the book, are lost forever.

The later fathers you folks listen to most, are the least dependable on this.
Do you know what you're talking about? I sure don't.

For example, the millennial kingdom is a consensus in the earliest fathers, yet you reject it following later fathers, contrary to the elementary principle the earliest should be the best, being the closest to the apostles themselves.
Elementary principle? According to whom?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #808 on: October 08, 2010, 05:59:17 AM »
Its ironic I, a sola scripturaist, who places scripture in its Jewish context to understand it, is thus enlightened by  the oral traditions Christ and His apostles knew intimately, while you, who profess adherence to scripture and tradition, reject the very oral tradition known to the apostles, in favor of Gentile conjecture about the Jewish Bible.
Do you understand what Tradition is to us?
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #809 on: October 08, 2010, 06:31:31 AM »

For example, the millennial kingdom is a consensus in the earliest fathers,
References, please.