Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 198324 times)

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Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #720 on: October 05, 2010, 07:34:38 AM »
Many of us have already posted that we must know Jesus Christ as Lord & savior, worship the Trinity in spirit and in truth, follow the commands to love God & neighbor, live by the 10 commandments, confess our sins ongoingly, & support evangelism. This is all Biblical what is the ongoing point here? Do we have to post lines of scripture to amplify our faith that is found in scripture?

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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #721 on: October 05, 2010, 09:29:53 AM »
I decided to Google where Orthodox Commentary might exist, and learned it doesn't, apart from the Ancient Christian Commentary I already have in my Logos library:

http://www.logos.com/

"Ever think of reading it?"-Captain Obvious.

But I did find an Orthodox Catechism:

http://orthodoxcatechism.org/

AND was shocked to read this:

Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.Underline mine.

Since you do not believe the Scriptures, I can see why Bible based theology will shock you:
Luke 6:12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles.

Quote
14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,...

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues
, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 (Act 1:14-4 NKJ)
And? Everyone is chrismated, but not all are ordained.

 
Quote
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God
; And we shall reign on the earth."
 (Rev 5:9-10 NKJ)
And?

The text says all 120 were there (not counting women of course), and all received the gifts of tongues = more than 12.

AND the idea only the 12 were priests, is clearly wrong, every believer is a king and priest.

We will  rise in the first resurrection:

 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6 NKJ)

The rest of the dead, who are written in the Lamb's book of life, rise up from hell into life, but aren't kings and priests as we who believe now, in this life:

 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:11-15 NKJ)

So every born again believer is a priest and king...not just the apostles.

Every Orthodox Christian who has been anointed with oil by someone with the authority to do so is indeed a priest. We believe in the priesthood of all believers. What we don't believe in is the eldership of all believers.

Israel was called a nation of priests (Exodus 19:6), yet they also had a tribe of priests who performed religious functions that none of the other "priests" could perform (2 Chronicles 35:14). It's the same thing.

Even Saint Paul, who was taught everything by the ascended Christ and saw him in glory, did not simply go off on his own authority. He first appeared before the Apostles' successors or authorized representatives and was sent out.

But you don't believe in the Bible, so what does it matter?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 09:49:24 AM by bogdan »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #722 on: October 05, 2010, 11:02:10 AM »
I decided to Google where Orthodox Commentary might exist, and learned it doesn't, apart from the Ancient Christian Commentary I already have in my Logos library:

http://www.logos.com/

"Ever think of reading it?"-Captain Obvious.

But I did find an Orthodox Catechism:

http://orthodoxcatechism.org/

AND was shocked to read this:

Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.Underline mine.

Since you do not believe the Scriptures, I can see why Bible based theology will shock you:
Luke 6:12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles.

Quote
14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,...

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues
, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 (Act 1:14-4 NKJ)
And? Everyone is chrismated, but not all are ordained.

 
Quote
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God
; And we shall reign on the earth."
 (Rev 5:9-10 NKJ)
And?

The text says all 120 were there (not counting women of course), and all received the gifts of tongues = more than 12.

If you harkened to the Bible, and not your Pentacostal friends, you would know that gift of tongues =/= priesthood.

AND the idea only the 12 were priests, is clearly wrong, every believer is a king and priest.

The Twelve who Christ picked and upon whom the Holy Spirit descended has passed that gift down-along with their Traditions-in the laying on of their hands.

No Apostle's hand has been near your head.

So you are in no position to find anything wrong or right.  If I want to find out if the meat is good, I'll ask somebody eating a proper diet not someone who is spitting up milk.

I Cor. 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts.

But then you do not believe the Scirptures.

We will  rise in the first resurrection:

 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6 NKJ)

The rest of the dead, who are written in the Lamb's book of life, rise up from hell into life, but aren't kings and priests as we who believe now, in this life:

 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:11-15 NKJ)

So every born again believer is a priest and king...not just the apostles.
OK, Korah.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #723 on: October 05, 2010, 11:15:05 AM »
I decided to Google where Orthodox Commentary might exist, and learned it doesn't, apart from the Ancient Christian Commentary I already have in my Logos library:

http://www.logos.com/

"Ever think of reading it?"-Captain Obvious.

But I did find an Orthodox Catechism:

http://orthodoxcatechism.org/

AND was shocked to read this:

Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.Underline mine.

Since you do not believe the Scriptures, I can see why Bible based theology will shock you:
Luke 6:12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles.

Quote
14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,...

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues
, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 (Act 1:14-4 NKJ)
And? Everyone is chrismated, but not all are ordained.

 
Quote
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God
; And we shall reign on the earth."
 (Rev 5:9-10 NKJ)
And?

The text says all 120 were there (not counting women of course), and all received the gifts of tongues = more than 12.

AND the idea only the 12 were priests, is clearly wrong, every believer is a king and priest.

We will  rise in the first resurrection:

 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6 NKJ)

The rest of the dead, who are written in the Lamb's book of life, rise up from hell into life, but aren't kings and priests as we who believe now, in this life:

 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:11-15 NKJ)

So every born again believer is a priest and king...not just the apostles.

Every Orthodox Christian who has been anointed with oil by someone with the authority to do so is indeed a priest. We believe in the priesthood of all believers. What we don't believe in is the eldership of all believers.

Israel was called a nation of priests (Exodus 19:6), yet they also had a tribe of priests who performed religious functions that none of the other "priests" could perform (2 Chronicles 35:14). It's the same thing.

Even Saint Paul, who was taught everything by the ascended Christ and saw him in glory, did not simply go off on his own authority. He first appeared before the Apostles' successors or authorized representatives and was sent out.

But you don't believe in the Bible, so what does it matter?

I don't see the word "eldership" in the quote, and I do see explicit statement the apostles alone receive the priesthood, and upon them alone fell the Holy Spirit.

Can you cite an Orthodox commentary explaining the meaning of this catechism...Just to make sure you aren't misrepresenting its meaning:


Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.Underline mine.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 11:17:06 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #724 on: October 05, 2010, 11:20:26 AM »
If you harkened to the Bible, and not your Pentacostal friends, you would know that gift of tongues =/= priesthood.

"The gift of tongues =/= priesthood?"

What are you saying?

« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 11:23:13 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #725 on: October 05, 2010, 11:28:38 AM »
If you harkened to the Bible, and not your Pentacostal friends, you would know that gift of tongues =/= priesthood.

"The gift of tongues =/= priesthood?"

What are you saying?



gift of tongues≠priesthood.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #726 on: October 05, 2010, 11:29:14 AM »
Another shocking quote, re Baptism:

"...since there is no salvation for him who is not baptized."
http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Catechism/catbapt.htm

If there is no salvation for him who is not baptized, how could Paul say:

 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you  (1Co 1:14 NKJ)


If Paul believed no salvation without baptism, then he is saying:

  I thank God that I saved none of you  (1Co 1:14 NKJ)

« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 11:31:02 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #727 on: October 05, 2010, 11:32:11 AM »
I see your point. They didn't mention Satan because he is their god, nor Obama because he is their antichrist, nor did they mention Washington DC, because its the seat of the beast, and they didn't mention you, because you are their false prophet.

I like this.

Alfred, there is a Politics Board if you really want to go there.  PM Fr. Chris for permission.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #728 on: October 05, 2010, 11:34:45 AM »
Another shocking quote:

"...since there is no salvation for him who is not baptized. You may ask what happens to a little baby that dies before it is baptized? We cannot answer this question."
 
http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Catechism/catbapt.htm




You can't answer that question?

 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
 (Rom 8:29-35 NKJ)

If you heard Paul say this, would you have jumped up and said:

"Not being baptized can separate us from the love of Christ!


Clearly the Orthodox know neither the power of God or the scriptures:
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 11:37:32 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #729 on: October 05, 2010, 11:39:12 AM »
Another shocking quote, re Baptism:

"...since there is no salvation for him who is not baptized."
http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Catechism/catbapt.htm

If there is no salvation for him who is not baptized, how could Paul say:

 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you  (1Co 1:14 NKJ)


If Paul believed no salvation without baptism, then he is saying:

  I thank God that I saved none of you  (1Co 1:14 NKJ)



Do you think the baptizer of Arius was boasting of that?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #730 on: October 05, 2010, 11:41:36 AM »
I see your point. They didn't mention Satan because he is their god, nor Obama because he is their antichrist, nor did they mention Washington DC, because its the seat of the beast, and they didn't mention you, because you are their false prophet.

I like this.

Alfred, there is a Politics Board if you really want to go there.  PM Fr. Chris for permission.

That was satire utilizing his premise one can argue from not mentioning God etc, they worshiped the devil. There is a rule I must follow when utter foolishness stands before me:

 4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.
 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
 (Pro 26:4-5 NKJ)

I expose the fallacy, by satirizing it, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 11:42:36 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #731 on: October 05, 2010, 11:46:01 AM »
Another shocking quote, re Baptism:

"...since there is no salvation for him who is not baptized."
http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Catechism/catbapt.htm

If there is no salvation for him who is not baptized, how could Paul say:

 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you  (1Co 1:14 NKJ)


If Paul believed no salvation without baptism, then he is saying:

 I thank God that I saved none of you  (1Co 1:14 NKJ)



Do you think the baptizer of Arius was boasting of that?


Arius...what has he to do with Paul or Paul's statement?

Responses like that bring to my remembrance an old Jefferson Airplane song, "Lather."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVstafKZDYY
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 11:47:26 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #732 on: October 05, 2010, 11:48:31 AM »
Tsk, tsk, Alfred, that St Paul quote doesn't mean baptism isn't essential - and I suspect you know that, too.

But why ruin a good argument by quoting things IN context? is what I always say! ;)

By the way - enjoying the cooler weather? :)
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #733 on: October 05, 2010, 11:49:12 AM »
I see your point. They didn't mention Satan because he is their god, nor Obama because he is their antichrist, nor did they mention Washington DC, because its the seat of the beast, and they didn't mention you, because you are their false prophet.

I like this.

Alfred, there is a Politics Board if you really want to go there.  PM Fr. Chris for permission.
SolEX01, the mere mention of a political figure does not make a post political.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 11:53:55 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #734 on: October 05, 2010, 11:52:13 AM »
I see your point. They didn't mention Satan because he is their god, nor Obama because he is their antichrist, nor did they mention Washington DC, because its the seat of the beast, and they didn't mention you, because you are their false prophet.

I like this.

Alfred, there is a Politics Board if you really want to go there.  PM Fr. Chris for permission.

That was satire utilizing his premise one can argue from not mentioning God etc, they worshiped the devil.

Like sarcasm, satire doesn't come across too well on a text based forum.   :)

There is a rule I must follow when utter foolishness stands before me:

 4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.
 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
 (Pro 26:4-5 NKJ)

We could apply the above verses and not answer you so that we don't become like you.  However, in the Orthodox Study Bible, they use the word "undiscerning" rather than "fool."  We could also cite Proverbs 26:9 (OSB)

     Thorny plants grow in the hand of a drunkard
     And slavery in the hand of men without discernment

We are not slaves to Perssonism; however, we are servants of God as the Priest recites to those Orthodox Christians who go to the chalice to partake of the Holy Communion.

I expose the fallacy, by satirizing it, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Proverbs 26:13 (OSB)

     I saw a man who seemed to himself to be wise,
     But a man without discernment has more hope than he.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #735 on: October 05, 2010, 11:55:12 AM »
Tsk, tsk, Alfred, that St Paul quote doesn't mean baptism isn't essential - and I suspect you know that, too.

But why ruin a good argument by quoting things IN context? is what I always say! ;)

By the way - enjoying the cooler weather? :)

Prove how the context changes the meaning...

Paul is glad he baptized none of them.

If he believed baptism necessary to be saved, then Paul said he was glad he saved none of them.

AS that is impossible, Paul did NOT believe baptism is necessary to be saved.




And yes, I love the cooler weather, but my bike is down for repairs.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #736 on: October 05, 2010, 12:01:26 PM »
I see your point. They didn't mention Satan because he is their god, nor Obama because he is their antichrist, nor did they mention Washington DC, because its the seat of the beast, and they didn't mention you, because you are their false prophet.

I like this.

Alfred, there is a Politics Board if you really want to go there.  PM Fr. Chris for permission.

That was satire utilizing his premise one can argue from not mentioning God etc, they worshiped the devil.

Like sarcasm, satire doesn't come across too well on a text based forum.   :)

There is a rule I must follow when utter foolishness stands before me:

 4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.
 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
 (Pro 26:4-5 NKJ)

We could apply the above verses and not answer you so that we don't become like you.  However, in the Orthodox Study Bible, they use the word "undiscerning" rather than "fool."  We could also cite Proverbs 26:9 (OSB)

     Thorny plants grow in the hand of a drunkard
     And slavery in the hand of men without discernment

We are not slaves to Perssonism; however, we are servants of God as the Priest recites to those Orthodox Christians who go to the chalice to partake of the Holy Communion.

I expose the fallacy, by satirizing it, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Proverbs 26:13 (OSB)

     I saw a man who seemed to himself to be wise,
     But a man without discernment has more hope than he.

My satire has only the highest end in view, teaching the seemingly unteachable.

As for engaging me, I have learned the secret of winning the argument every time:

 17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper, And every tongue which rises against you in judgment You shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me," Says the LORD. (Isa 54:17 NKJ)

This is the secret:

 30 "He must increase, but I must decrease.
 31 "He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
 (Joh 3:30-31 NKJ)

One must not get in the way of Christ being the objective.


« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 12:03:23 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #737 on: October 05, 2010, 12:02:07 PM »

Prove how the context changes the meaning...

Paul is glad he baptized none of them.

Many people were false baptizers in those ages.  In other words, an early convert would start running around and baptizing people in the name of SolEX01 (example) rather than in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Paul was saying that he didn't baptize any of these "false baptizers."

If he believed baptism necessary to be saved, then Paul said he was glad he saved none of them.

Have you baptized anyone in the name of Alfred Persson?

AS that is impossible, Paul did NOT believe baptism is necessary to be saved.

Not any more than having to believe in you to be saved.   ;)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 12:08:13 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #738 on: October 05, 2010, 12:07:37 PM »
My satire has only the highest end in view, teaching the seemingly unteachable.

As for engaging me, I have learned the secret of winning the argument every time:

 17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper, And every tongue which rises against you in judgment You shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me," Says the LORD. (Isa 54:17 NKJ)

Think about it ... have you condemned anybody?

This is the secret:

 30 "He must increase, but I must decrease.
 31 "He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
 (Joh 3:30-31 NKJ)

Christ must be allowed to speak through you.

I don't hear Christ's words coming from you....

Quote from: Alfred Persson
One must not get in the way of Christ being the objective.

Christ is the objective.  At least we agree on something.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 12:14:04 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #739 on: October 05, 2010, 12:14:57 PM »

Prove how the context changes the meaning...

Paul is glad he baptized none of them.

Many people were false baptizers in those ages.  In other words, an early convert would start running around and baptizing people in the name of SolEX01 (example) rather than in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Paul was saying that he didn't baptize any of these "false baptizers."

If he believed baptism necessary to be saved, then Paul said he was glad he saved none of them.

Nope, have you baptized anyone in the name of Alfred Persson?

AS that is impossible, Paul did NOT believe baptism is necessary to be saved.

Not any more than having to believe in you to be saved.   ;)

Incorrect, the context isn't about baptism, its about divisions in the church:

12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ."
 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.
 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
 (1Co 1:12-16 NKJ)


So Paul is NOT objecting to baptizers at all, he is objecting to what the baptized were saying, their sectarianism:

Some of them claimed "I am of Paul" and Paul points out, that isn't true as he didn't baptize them.

Paul says he is glad he didn't baptize any of THEM, lest they say he baptized them in his own name.

But the point is, Paul couldn't say this if he believed baptism necessary to salvation, for then he is saying he is glad he saved none of them.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #740 on: October 05, 2010, 12:17:53 PM »
My satire has only the highest end in view, teaching the seemingly unteachable.

As for engaging me, I have learned the secret of winning the argument every time:

 17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper, And every tongue which rises against you in judgment You shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me," Says the LORD. (Isa 54:17 NKJ)

Think about it ... have you condemned anybody?

This is the secret:

 30 "He must increase, but I must decrease.
 31 "He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
 (Joh 3:30-31 NKJ)

Christ must be allowed to speak through you.

I don't hear Christ's words coming from you....

Quote from: Alfred Persson
One must not get in the way of Christ being the objective.

Christ is the objective.  At least we agree on something.

Its not about me, its about the shocking things I quoted from the Orthodox Catechism...

 24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
 25 Who frustrates the signs of the babblers, And drives diviners mad; Who turns wise men backward, And makes their knowledge foolishness;
 26 Who confirms the word of His servant
 (Isa 44:24-26 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 12:19:05 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #741 on: October 05, 2010, 12:22:04 PM »

Prove how the context changes the meaning...

Paul is glad he baptized none of them.

Many people were false baptizers in those ages.  In other words, an early convert would start running around and baptizing people in the name of SolEX01 (example) rather than in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Paul was saying that he didn't baptize any of these "false baptizers."

If he believed baptism necessary to be saved, then Paul said he was glad he saved none of them.

Nope, have you baptized anyone in the name of Alfred Persson?

AS that is impossible, Paul did NOT believe baptism is necessary to be saved.

Not any more than having to believe in you to be saved.   ;)

Incorrect, the context isn't about baptism, its about divisions in the church:

False baptizers created divisions in the church.

12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ."
 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.
 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
 (1Co 1:12-16 NKJ)

So Paul is NOT objecting to baptizers at all, he is objecting to what the baptized were saying, their sectarianism:

You have brought sectarianism to this board with your proselytizing.   ;)

Some of them claimed "I am of Paul" and Paul points out, that isn't true as he didn't baptize them.

Paul says he is glad he didn't baptize any of THEM, lest they say he baptized them in his own name.

But the point is, Paul couldn't say this if he believed baptism necessary to salvation, for then he is saying he is glad he saved none of them.

But what kind of salvation ... Even if one is baptized, salvation isn't guaranteed in the Orthodox faith.  So, if you baptize me in the name of Alfred Persson, I have abandoned my faith for a sectarianist viewpoint.  If (because I have freewill to be baptized by you and to reject your baptism) I repent and confess my error, I can be Chrismated (or anointed with oil) back into the Orthodox faith with a new beginning.   :)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #742 on: October 05, 2010, 12:23:27 PM »
Its not about me, its about the shocking things I quoted from the Orthodox Catechism...

 24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
 25 Who frustrates the signs of the babblers, And drives diviners mad; Who turns wise men backward, And makes their knowledge foolishness;
 26 Who confirms the word of His servant
 (Isa 44:24-26 NKJ)

What is wrong with what you cited?   ???

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #743 on: October 05, 2010, 12:27:38 PM »
Another shocking quote, re Baptism:

"...since there is no salvation for him who is not baptized."
http://biserica.org/Publicatii/Catechism/catbapt.htm

If there is no salvation for him who is not baptized, how could Paul say:

 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you  (1Co 1:14 NKJ)


If Paul believed no salvation without baptism, then he is saying:

 I thank God that I saved none of you  (1Co 1:14 NKJ)



Do you think the baptizer of Arius was boasting of that?


Arius...what has he to do with Paul or Paul's statement?

As much as you do with St. Paul or any of St. Paul's statements.


Responses like that bring to my remembrance an old Jefferson Airplane song, "Lather."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVstafKZDYY

Responses like yours remind us of Arius.

I Corinthians 11:17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 22 What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.  29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s[f] body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come.

St. Paul was practicing what he preached: I Tim. 5:22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure.

But then you do not believe what St. Paul preached, "some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." II Peter. 3:16


« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 12:31:43 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #744 on: October 05, 2010, 12:33:57 PM »
I see your point. They didn't mention Satan because he is their god, nor Obama because he is their antichrist, nor did they mention Washington DC, because its the seat of the beast, and they didn't mention you, because you are their false prophet.

I like this.

Alfred, there is a Politics Board if you really want to go there.  PM Fr. Chris for permission.

That was satire utilizing his premise one can argue from not mentioning God etc, they worshiped the devil.

Like sarcasm, satire doesn't come across too well on a text based forum.   :)

There is a rule I must follow when utter foolishness stands before me:

 4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.
 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
 (Pro 26:4-5 NKJ)

We could apply the above verses and not answer you so that we don't become like you.  However, in the Orthodox Study Bible, they use the word "undiscerning" rather than "fool."  We could also cite Proverbs 26:9 (OSB)

     Thorny plants grow in the hand of a drunkard
     And slavery in the hand of men without discernment

We are not slaves to Perssonism; however, we are servants of God as the Priest recites to those Orthodox Christians who go to the chalice to partake of the Holy Communion.

I expose the fallacy, by satirizing it, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Proverbs 26:13 (OSB)

     I saw a man who seemed to himself to be wise,
     But a man without discernment has more hope than he.

My satire has only the highest end in view, teaching the seemingly unteachable.

Physician, heal thyself. We already know how to drink milk, something you obviously haven't mastered

As for engaging me, I have learned the secret of winning the argument every time:

 17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper, And every tongue which rises against you in judgment You shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me," Says the LORD. (Isa 54:17 NKJ)

This is the secret:

 30 "He must increase, but I must decrease.
 31 "He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
 (Joh 3:30-31 NKJ)

One must not get in the way of Christ being the objective.
Christ I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 12:35:57 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #745 on: October 05, 2010, 12:36:40 PM »
I don't see the word "eldership" in the quote, and I do see explicit statement the apostles alone receive the priesthood, and upon them alone fell the Holy Spirit.

Can you cite an Orthodox commentary explaining the meaning of this catechism...Just to make sure you aren't misrepresenting its meaning:


Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.Underline mine.


There is no single official, all-encompassing, or infallible catechism. The Holy Fathers have not seen fit to hand such a thing down to us. As I have already explained, religion is a life you live, not a philosophy to be dissected and tested, so the concept of a catechism is conceptually anathema to Orthodoxy. But because of the rise of Western rationalism, we have condescended somewhat to create the many catechisms available, but none have the inherent force and authority that the CCC, the Heidelberg Catechism, the Westminster Confession, etc have in their respective confessions.

In other words, catechisms are of limited value and have really no inherent authority, aside from their source materials. The authority comes from Holy Tradition, not words on a piece of paper.

So, I don't need to give you a quote from a catechism. I have heard plenty of priests use that exact phrase "priesthood of all believers, but not the eldership of all believers." It is in the common deposit of faith. It doesn't have to be written down to be authoritative. Only a Western rationalist would have such an idea.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 12:39:21 PM by bogdan »

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #746 on: October 05, 2010, 12:36:40 PM »

Prove how the context changes the meaning...

Paul is glad he baptized none of them.

Many people were false baptizers in those ages.  In other words, an early convert would start running around and baptizing people in the name of SolEX01 (example) rather than in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  Paul was saying that he didn't baptize any of these "false baptizers."

If he believed baptism necessary to be saved, then Paul said he was glad he saved none of them.

Nope, have you baptized anyone in the name of Alfred Persson?

AS that is impossible, Paul did NOT believe baptism is necessary to be saved.

Not any more than having to believe in you to be saved.   ;)

Incorrect, the context isn't about baptism, its about divisions in the church:

12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ."
 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.
 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
 (1Co 1:12-16 NKJ)


So Paul is NOT objecting to baptizers at all, he is objecting to what the baptized were saying, their sectarianism:

Some of them claimed "I am of Paul" and Paul points out, that isn't true as he didn't baptize them.

Paul says he is glad he didn't baptize any of THEM, lest they say he baptized them in his own name.

But the point is, Paul couldn't say this if he believed baptism necessary to salvation, for then he is saying he is glad he saved none of them.



But, Mr Persson, St Paul didn't save anyone.  That's pretty much his point.  Through St Paul's works; his preaching, exhortation, and yes, even baptisms (for as soon as he says he baptized none, he then goes on to give a list of many he did indeed baptize), St Paul brought the gift of salvation.  But the actual saving was done by our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #747 on: October 05, 2010, 12:44:55 PM »
Now we are hearing baptism is not necessary to be saved? What about Romans 6:1-11 with vs. 4 in particular? And what about the Lord speaking in John 3:3, "...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." As the thief on the cross did not receive any earthly sacrament of baptism, are we now to conclude that a heavenly baptism is not accorded when an earthly one cannot be? The content here is degenerating from mere incorrect theology to utter stupidity. Forgive my tone but I cannot see anything otherwise.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #748 on: October 05, 2010, 01:06:45 PM »
Early this morning, I put a simple request to Alfred asking him to deny that he is God. He has made at least ten posts since then and has not responded. Apparently he agrees that solum verbum dei = solum verbum alfredi.
Is it possible to have any sort of rational discussion with a man who refuses to deny that he is God???

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #749 on: October 05, 2010, 01:30:48 PM »
Early this morning, I put a simple request to Alfred asking him to deny that he is God. He has made at least ten posts since then and has not responded. Apparently he agrees that solum verbum dei = solum verbum alfredi.
Is it possible to have any sort of rational discussion with a man who refuses to deny that he is God???

Yes, what about this, Alfred? You have been ignoring requests to explain this innovation for some time. What about it?

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #750 on: October 05, 2010, 01:51:18 PM »
Now we are hearing baptism is not necessary to be saved? What about Romans 6:1-11 with vs. 4 in particular? And what about the Lord speaking in John 3:3, "...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." As the thief on the cross did not receive any earthly sacrament of baptism, are we now to conclude that a heavenly baptism is not accorded when an earthly one cannot be? The content here is degenerating from mere incorrect theology to utter stupidity. Forgive my tone but I cannot see anything otherwise.

It is not stupid to debate Alfred from the context that he is most familiar with.

IMO, Alfred's biggest problem is understanding (or misunderstanding) the Apostle Paul based on whatever commentary provided with his logos.com Bible Study Software.  The Bible does not come with an Owner's Manual; however, Alfred thinks the logos.com software is a suitable Owner's Manual especially when he visits a forum who doesn't have an Owner's Manual or a formal Cathechism like the other Jurisdictions mentioned by others.

Example, even though I cited from Met. Soterios' Cathechism, I was quoting Met. Soterios, an Orthodox Bishop who happens to be the author of the Cathechism.  I doubt that Alfred understands the difference between original sources and mirrored sources like the Romanian Orthodox Church in Los Angeles metro area.  If Alfred had a problem with that Church, I wonder if he has tried speaking to that Priest about his concerns.  That would have been an excellent first step before coming on this forum and "proselytizing."

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #751 on: October 05, 2010, 03:07:27 PM »
I don't see the word "eldership" in the quote, and I do see explicit statement the apostles alone receive the priesthood, and upon them alone fell the Holy Spirit.

Can you cite an Orthodox commentary explaining the meaning of this catechism...Just to make sure you aren't misrepresenting its meaning:


Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.Underline mine.


There is no single official, all-encompassing, or infallible catechism. The Holy Fathers have not seen fit to hand such a thing down to us. As I have already explained, religion is a life you live, not a philosophy to be dissected and tested, so the concept of a catechism is conceptually anathema to Orthodoxy. But because of the rise of Western rationalism, we have condescended somewhat to create the many catechisms available, but none have the inherent force and authority that the CCC, the Heidelberg Catechism, the Westminster Confession, etc have in their respective confessions.

In other words, catechisms are of limited value and have really no inherent authority, aside from their source materials. The authority comes from Holy Tradition, not words on a piece of paper.

So, I don't need to give you a quote from a catechism. I have heard plenty of priests use that exact phrase "priesthood of all believers, but not the eldership of all believers." It is in the common deposit of faith. It doesn't have to be written down to be authoritative. Only a Western rationalist would have such an idea.

Just as I thought, you misrepresent orthodoxy whenever its necessary to evade the elementary conclusion they erred.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #752 on: October 05, 2010, 03:09:39 PM »
Early this morning, I put a simple request to Alfred asking him to deny that he is God. He has made at least ten posts since then and has not responded. Apparently he agrees that solum verbum dei = solum verbum alfredi.
Is it possible to have any sort of rational discussion with a man who refuses to deny that he is God???

Yes, what about this, Alfred? You have been ignoring requests to explain this innovation for some time. What about it?

What, and spoil his self amusement?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVstafKZDYY

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #753 on: October 05, 2010, 03:26:16 PM »
I see your point. They didn't mention Satan because he is their god, nor Obama because he is their antichrist, nor did they mention Washington DC, because its the seat of the beast, and they didn't mention you, because you are their false prophet.

I like this.

Alfred, there is a Politics Board if you really want to go there.  PM Fr. Chris for permission.

That was satire utilizing his premise one can argue from not mentioning God etc, they worshiped the devil.

Like sarcasm, satire doesn't come across too well on a text based forum.   :)

There is a rule I must follow when utter foolishness stands before me:

 4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.
 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
 (Pro 26:4-5 NKJ)

We could apply the above verses and not answer you so that we don't become like you.  However, in the Orthodox Study Bible, they use the word "undiscerning" rather than "fool."  We could also cite Proverbs 26:9 (OSB)

     Thorny plants grow in the hand of a drunkard
     And slavery in the hand of men without discernment

We are not slaves to Perssonism; however, we are servants of God as the Priest recites to those Orthodox Christians who go to the chalice to partake of the Holy Communion.

I expose the fallacy, by satirizing it, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

Proverbs 26:13 (OSB)

     I saw a man who seemed to himself to be wise,
     But a man without discernment has more hope than he.

My satire has only the highest end in view, teaching the seemingly unteachable.

As for engaging me, I have learned the secret of winning the argument every time:
That works (maybe) only if you can actually craft a cogent argument. ::)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #754 on: October 05, 2010, 03:31:24 PM »
I don't see the word "eldership" in the quote, and I do see explicit statement the apostles alone receive the priesthood, and upon them alone fell the Holy Spirit.

Can you cite an Orthodox commentary explaining the meaning of this catechism...Just to make sure you aren't misrepresenting its meaning:


Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.Underline mine.


There is no single official, all-encompassing, or infallible catechism. The Holy Fathers have not seen fit to hand such a thing down to us. As I have already explained, religion is a life you live, not a philosophy to be dissected and tested, so the concept of a catechism is conceptually anathema to Orthodoxy. But because of the rise of Western rationalism, we have condescended somewhat to create the many catechisms available, but none have the inherent force and authority that the CCC, the Heidelberg Catechism, the Westminster Confession, etc have in their respective confessions.

In other words, catechisms are of limited value and have really no inherent authority, aside from their source materials. The authority comes from Holy Tradition, not words on a piece of paper.

So, I don't need to give you a quote from a catechism. I have heard plenty of priests use that exact phrase "priesthood of all believers, but not the eldership of all believers." It is in the common deposit of faith. It doesn't have to be written down to be authoritative. Only a Western rationalist would have such an idea.

Just as I thought, you misrepresent orthodoxy whenever its necessary to evade the elementary conclusion they erred.
One has to first know Orthodoxy before one can recognize a misrepresentation of it. Alfred, you don't know Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 03:34:27 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #755 on: October 05, 2010, 03:33:56 PM »
Early this morning, I put a simple request to Alfred asking him to deny that he is God. He has made at least ten posts since then and has not responded. Apparently he agrees that solum verbum dei = solum verbum alfredi.
Is it possible to have any sort of rational discussion with a man who refuses to deny that he is God???

Yes, what about this, Alfred? You have been ignoring requests to explain this innovation for some time. What about it?

What, and spoil his self amusement?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVstafKZDYY


Is the song part of your autobiography?
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Beware the wrath of the guardians of "love."

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #756 on: October 05, 2010, 03:39:29 PM »
Early this morning, I put a simple request to Alfred asking him to deny that he is God. He has made at least ten posts since then and has not responded. Apparently he agrees that solum verbum dei = solum verbum alfredi.
Is it possible to have any sort of rational discussion with a man who refuses to deny that he is God???

Yes, what about this, Alfred? You have been ignoring requests to explain this innovation for some time. What about it?

What, and spoil his self amusement?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVstafKZDYY
I think we can add Alfred's attempts to avoid answering a simple question to this list:
http://www.cracked.com/article_18657_the-7-most-insane-things-ever-done-to-get-out-something.html

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #757 on: October 05, 2010, 04:18:33 PM »
Just as I thought, you misrepresent orthodoxy whenever its necessary to evade the elementary conclusion they erred.

Can you cite the bolded text in your logos.com Bible Software given that logos.com does not favor the Orthodox Church?   ???

Refusing to answer basic questions isn't translating to any support for your cause; however, sounds like you don't require anyone's support....


Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #758 on: October 05, 2010, 04:50:07 PM »
I don't see the word "eldership" in the quote, and I do see explicit statement the apostles alone receive the priesthood, and upon them alone fell the Holy Spirit.

Can you cite an Orthodox commentary explaining the meaning of this catechism...Just to make sure you aren't misrepresenting its meaning:


Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.Underline mine.


There is no single official, all-encompassing, or infallible catechism. The Holy Fathers have not seen fit to hand such a thing down to us. As I have already explained, religion is a life you live, not a philosophy to be dissected and tested, so the concept of a catechism is conceptually anathema to Orthodoxy. But because of the rise of Western rationalism, we have condescended somewhat to create the many catechisms available, but none have the inherent force and authority that the CCC, the Heidelberg Catechism, the Westminster Confession, etc have in their respective confessions.

In other words, catechisms are of limited value and have really no inherent authority, aside from their source materials. The authority comes from Holy Tradition, not words on a piece of paper.

So, I don't need to give you a quote from a catechism. I have heard plenty of priests use that exact phrase "priesthood of all believers, but not the eldership of all believers." It is in the common deposit of faith. It doesn't have to be written down to be authoritative. Only a Western rationalist would have such an idea.

Just as I thought, you misrepresent orthodoxy whenever its necessary to evade the elementary conclusion they erred.

How can you say that, when you don't even know what Holy Tradition is? (Or rather, you refuse to acknowledge every single description people give you.)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 05:01:30 PM by bogdan »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #759 on: October 05, 2010, 05:06:54 PM »
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist


Warning: stories have mature content.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #760 on: October 05, 2010, 10:40:38 PM »
I don't see the word "eldership" in the quote, and I do see explicit statement the apostles alone receive the priesthood, and upon them alone fell the Holy Spirit.

Can you cite an Orthodox commentary explaining the meaning of this catechism...Just to make sure you aren't misrepresenting its meaning:


Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.Underline mine.


There is no single official, all-encompassing, or infallible catechism. The Holy Fathers have not seen fit to hand such a thing down to us. As I have already explained, religion is a life you live, not a philosophy to be dissected and tested, so the concept of a catechism is conceptually anathema to Orthodoxy. But because of the rise of Western rationalism, we have condescended somewhat to create the many catechisms available, but none have the inherent force and authority that the CCC, the Heidelberg Catechism, the Westminster Confession, etc have in their respective confessions.

In other words, catechisms are of limited value and have really no inherent authority, aside from their source materials. The authority comes from Holy Tradition, not words on a piece of paper.

So, I don't need to give you a quote from a catechism. I have heard plenty of priests use that exact phrase "priesthood of all believers, but not the eldership of all believers." It is in the common deposit of faith. It doesn't have to be written down to be authoritative. Only a Western rationalist would have such an idea.

Just as I thought, you misrepresent orthodoxy whenever its necessary to evade the elementary conclusion they erred.
One has to first know Orthodoxy before one can recognize a misrepresentation of it. Alfred, you don't know Orthodoxy.

Right, I agree. Therefore lets use primary sources when citing Orthodox belief so we can stop wasting time discussing what Orthodoxy does not believe.

Its absurd you gents respond to me with your private interpretations...with answers you don't believe...it makes no sense.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #761 on: October 05, 2010, 10:45:24 PM »
Right, I agree. Therefore lets use primary sources when citing Orthodox belief

What if I don't consider any software produced by logos.com as a primary source?   ???

so we can stop wasting time discussing what Orthodoxy does not believe.

Do I detect some concern that Perssonism (or better yet, "logos.com"ism is starting to fray?

Its absurd you gents respond to me with your private interpretations...with answers you don't believe...it makes no sense.

I don't pray to the software developers and armchair theologians at logos.com.   ;)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #762 on: October 05, 2010, 11:17:39 PM »
I don't see the word "eldership" in the quote, and I do see explicit statement the apostles alone receive the priesthood, and upon them alone fell the Holy Spirit.

Can you cite an Orthodox commentary explaining the meaning of this catechism...Just to make sure you aren't misrepresenting its meaning:


Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.Underline mine.


There is no single official, all-encompassing, or infallible catechism. The Holy Fathers have not seen fit to hand such a thing down to us. As I have already explained, religion is a life you live, not a philosophy to be dissected and tested, so the concept of a catechism is conceptually anathema to Orthodoxy. But because of the rise of Western rationalism, we have condescended somewhat to create the many catechisms available, but none have the inherent force and authority that the CCC, the Heidelberg Catechism, the Westminster Confession, etc have in their respective confessions.

In other words, catechisms are of limited value and have really no inherent authority, aside from their source materials. The authority comes from Holy Tradition, not words on a piece of paper.

So, I don't need to give you a quote from a catechism. I have heard plenty of priests use that exact phrase "priesthood of all believers, but not the eldership of all believers." It is in the common deposit of faith. It doesn't have to be written down to be authoritative. Only a Western rationalist would have such an idea.

Just as I thought, you misrepresent orthodoxy whenever its necessary to evade the elementary conclusion they erred.
One has to first know Orthodoxy before one can recognize a misrepresentation of it. Alfred, you don't know Orthodoxy.

Right, I agree. Therefore lets use primary sources when citing Orthodox belief so we can stop wasting time discussing what Orthodoxy does not believe.

Its absurd you gents respond to me with your private interpretations...with answers you don't believe...it makes no sense.



More forensicism from Alfred. He's like...a coroner, but with religion. Fascinating.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 11:36:52 PM by bogdan »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #763 on: October 05, 2010, 11:30:22 PM »
I don't see the word "eldership" in the quote, and I do see explicit statement the apostles alone receive the priesthood, and upon them alone fell the Holy Spirit.

Can you cite an Orthodox commentary explaining the meaning of this catechism...Just to make sure you aren't misrepresenting its meaning:


Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.Underline mine.


There is no single official, all-encompassing, or infallible catechism. The Holy Fathers have not seen fit to hand such a thing down to us. As I have already explained, religion is a life you live, not a philosophy to be dissected and tested, so the concept of a catechism is conceptually anathema to Orthodoxy. But because of the rise of Western rationalism, we have condescended somewhat to create the many catechisms available, but none have the inherent force and authority that the CCC, the Heidelberg Catechism, the Westminster Confession, etc have in their respective confessions.

In other words, catechisms are of limited value and have really no inherent authority, aside from their source materials. The authority comes from Holy Tradition, not words on a piece of paper.

So, I don't need to give you a quote from a catechism. I have heard plenty of priests use that exact phrase "priesthood of all believers, but not the eldership of all believers." It is in the common deposit of faith. It doesn't have to be written down to be authoritative. Only a Western rationalist would have such an idea.

Just as I thought, you misrepresent orthodoxy whenever its necessary to evade the elementary conclusion they erred.
One has to first know Orthodoxy before one can recognize a misrepresentation of it. Alfred, you don't know Orthodoxy.

Right, I agree. Therefore lets use primary sources when citing Orthodox belief so we can stop wasting time discussing what Orthodoxy does not believe.

Its absurd you gents respond to me with your private interpretations...with answers you don't believe...it makes no sense.
You just have to turn everything we say around and use it against us, don't you? ::) Do you know how old that gets?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #764 on: October 06, 2010, 07:17:30 AM »

Right, I agree. Therefore lets use primary sources when citing Orthodox belief so we can stop wasting time discussing what Orthodoxy does not believe.

Its absurd you gents respond to me with your private interpretations...with answers you don't believe...it makes no sense.


Well, Alfred, to see the primary sources, you are going to have to attend a few Orthodox worship services.

Our faith cannot be contained between the covers of a single book as yours is.

We believe that the Word of God is a person - Jesus Christ. The Holy Scriptures are an icon in words that point to Him. The Apostle Paul understood the idea that true faith is a living, personal faith: 2 Corinthian 3:2,3 "You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are  an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart." (NKJV)

Unfortunately, you have given us very little reason to believe that your request to see primary sources is an honest request.

However, you are exactly right when you write "it makes no sense". There is much about Orthodoxy that makes no sense to those outside the Faith. 1 Corinthians 1:21 "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." (NKJV) Belief precedes understanding.