Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 198427 times)

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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #675 on: October 04, 2010, 09:50:29 AM »
Furthermore,

1. In your opinion, can a human person be intimately and personally known by reading about them? Can a person's life and essence be captured in written words?

2. Same question, but about the Holy Spirit.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 09:50:57 AM by bogdan »

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #676 on: October 04, 2010, 09:51:13 AM »
The Fathers are hearsay, nothing more. The earliest fathers were not afforded opportunity for careful exegesis of scripture and given to making imprecise statements in the heat of the moment. Later fathers reflect their own beliefs, not necessarily the same as the apostles.

Scripture alone is oral testimony of what Christ and the apostles believed.

Sometimes the fathers agree with this, sometimes they ignorantly do not. They are snapshots in time revealing the departure from the teaching of the apostles, to their own traditions.

You ask for citations and you get them. Then you misquote the Fathers and go on to complain that they are not authoritative.

Sorry, Alfred, you have simply chosen to be argumentative and refuse to be consistent even with your own statements.

"Solum verbum alfredi" is all we get from you.

I'm still waiting for your explanation - with authoritative references - for "solum (sola?) verbum dei". Your persistent refusal to answer is proof that you have no answer and no argument.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #677 on: October 04, 2010, 09:52:01 AM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.

You won't let any interpretation be judged on its merits.
Because your interpretations have shown time and time again such gross twisting of even the literal meaning of the biblical text that they don't even merit the time of day.

Rather all  of you, especially you, refer to a nebulus Orthodox tradition as being right, and I am clearly wrong,  because I am ___ ____ ___ fill in the blanks.
You must have me confused with others who have been posting on this thread, since I'm not one of those dismissing your rantings as "Perssonism".

I tire of your evasion.
What's there to evade? You haven't made one attack on Orthodox Tradition that shows that you actually know what you're talking about.

I cited a simple text and its interpretation you all reject. BUT none of you cite the Orthodox tradition compelling your rejection.
If the candle won't light, there's no need to put it out with a fire hose.

Rather it appears anything I say is "Perssonism", to be rejected because it me saying it.
I reject it for the egregious mutilation of the text that it is. Show me an interpretation of the Scriptures that is actually faithful to the text and that makes logical sense, and maybe I'll take you seriously.

That is dishonest. Either you heed scripture, or you do not.
Scripture we heed. Your interpretations of Scripture that bear no semblance to even the literal sense of the text and that violate the rules of basic logic at every turn... NAH!

If I claimed to have extra biblical tradition that is the "word of God", it would be published and given out free of charge, if I could afford it.

You claim to have extra biblical tradition that is the Word of God, but refuse to share it with others.

I will even pay...state the price, I'll pay it.
But that never was the point of this thread. You come to this site to win us to your point of view.  It is therefore your point of view that is on trial here, not ours. We have no need to prove anything to you, since we are not preaching anything this audience has never heard; rather, you need to prove your new teaching to us.

It was your suggestion the Orthodox state clearly their view of the text, and I would respond.

And the genius of that struck me, like a diamond.

The efficiency...

I could quote what I found in the fathers, backing up my interpretation, but no one will discuss that.

You folks claimed your tradition is the Word of God, and that I am contradicting it, therefore it is very efficient you cite the precise Orthodox tradition I am contradicting, so I can respond.
And we probably shouldn't have made such a claim--actually, we never claimed that anything or anyone is the Word of God save for Jesus Christ Himself--since arguing with your interpretations of Scripture point by point only sidetracked you from your real burden by giving you something to argue with. We bear no responsibility to prove anything to you, though some have taken that upon themselves irresponsibly by arguing their claims to counter yours. You are the one who has something to prove, since you are the one introducing a new teaching to your audience. We need to stop making our counter claims, and you need to stop engaging them, all so you can focus on your real task of persuading us to embrace your point of view. The only thing we should be doing is pressing you for proof. But then this is an Internet forum, where gently persuading others to follow my lead is like herding cats. :-\ Oh, well.

AS for your private interpretation Paul is speaking about the church in Corinth only, here is one father that wouldn't agree:
Still arguing with your interpretation of what I believe, I see. Just as you mutilate the text of the Scriptures, so you mutilate the text of what I've written on this thread by only arguing with half of it. I'd ask you to go back and read the whole of what I said about St. Paul's preaching to the Corinthian church, but your insatiable desire to prove to yourself that you've won this argument would only continue to blind you to all but what you want to see.

Your response illustrates the inefficiency of discussing Bible with you folks, I suspect all of you are terrified you will inadvertently say something "unorthodox" and be summarily dismissed from the "Orthodox religion."

Rather than free in Christ, you are are enslaved to a tradition that you cannot reveal to outsiders, under threat of penalty.

Would they crucify you if you revealed Orthodox tradition to me?

The inefficiency of treating anything you gents say is obvious, you won't prove what you say is Orthodox. For all i know, you are offering private interpretations designed to protect your tradition from contradiction by someone like myself, who can easily rebut error and heresy.

That may protect odd and peculiar traditions from the teaching of Christ and His apostles, but it does nothing to advance your purpose of having this site, to show Orthodoxy is true to God's revelation.

Your traditions are likely odd and peculiar, because apparently you all are ashamed of them. Rather than point me to the definitive statement of Orthodoxy, especially its exegesis of this text, you evade....endlessly make it about me.

Its not about me, its about your odd and peculiar traditions. If you folks don't defend them here, now, who will?

Official Orthodox exegesis of scripture either is too embarrassing to be revealed to me, who can easily rebut foolishness, OR

having had almost 2,000 years, you have failed to accomplish any exegesis at all on scripture...Which causes one to conclude something entirely different:
[/i]

10 For the LORD has poured out on you The spirit of deep sleep, And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.
 11 The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I cannot, for it is sealed."
 12 Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I am not literate."
 13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
 14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
 (Isa 29:10-14 NKJ)


14 "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:`Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;
 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
 (Mat 13:14-15 NKJ)



So which is it:
1)Orthodox exegesis too foolish to be publicly revealed to Alfred Persson, for then he will document its untrue according to the Holy Scriptures.
2)Orthodox exegesis has been beyond our intellectual capacity these almost 2000 years.
3) Orthodox exgesis has been publicaly revealed to Alfred Persson, but it is beyond his intellectual capacity and he is too foolish to receive it, because it documents that his eisogesis is untrue according to the Holy Scriptures which the Orthodox wrote, canoniized, and transmitted before the untaught and unstable Alfred Persson received them and found them hard to understand, and twisted them to his own destruction

Because Alfred Persson believes his own tradition and not the Holy Scriptures.


Revealed to me? Where is it? Name of the book its written in.
http://www.conciliarpress.com/books/orthodox-study-bible/orthodox-study-bible-complete-hardcover.html
Try some milk before ordering steak.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 09:53:39 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #678 on: October 04, 2010, 10:01:39 AM »
Furthermore,

1. In your opinion, can a human person be intimately and personally known by reading about them? Can a person's life and essence be captured in written words?

2. Same question, but about the Holy Spirit.

I fail to see the relevancy of the question, until you "connect the dots" to my request for "official exegesis of scripture", I see it as more evasion.

I've tried to discuss Bible with you folks, but rarely do you respond with exegesis of Scripture, its always ME who is ___ ____ ___ (fill in the blanks with 99.9% of the responses I always receive).

So its a waste of time I tell you what I think a text says, you won't discuss that anyway, except to deny it.

But if I treat what Orthodoxy says about a verse, then you can't evade the issue when I contradict it.

Then the usual "that is Perssonism" just won't do, not if you want to defend Orthodoxy.

So why evade the question, Catholics post their Catechism for all to see. Protestants have their confessions of faith:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

AND both have commentaries so one can ascertain what they believe about specific Bible texts.

So what's wrong with the Orthodox? Don't they want others to know what they believe.

Show me the "official statement" of Orthodox belief...and point me to official or authoritative Orthodox Commentary on the Scriptures.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 10:05:06 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #679 on: October 04, 2010, 10:10:29 AM »
Furthermore,

1. In your opinion, can a human person be intimately and personally known by reading about them? Can a person's life and essence be captured in written words?

2. Same question, but about the Holy Spirit.

I fail to see the relevancy of the question, until you "connect the dots" to my request for "official exegesis of scripture", I see it as more evasion.

I've tried to discuss Bible with you folks, but rarely do you respond with exegesis of Scripture, its always ME who is ___ ____ ___ (fill in the blanks with 99.9% of the responses I always receive).

So its a waste of time I tell you what I think a text says, you won't discuss that anyway, except to deny it says it.

But if I treat what Orthodoxy says about a verse, then you can't evade the issue when I contradict it.

Then the usual "that is Perssonism" just won't do, not if you want to defend Orthodoxy.

So why evade the question, Catholics post their Catechism for all to see. Protestants have their confessions of faith:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

AND both have commentaries so one can ascertain what they believe about specific Bible texts.

So what's wrong with the Orthodox? Don't they want others to know what they believe.

Show me the "official statement" of Orthodox belief...and point me to official or authoritative Orthodox Commentary on the Scriptures.


Spoken like a true rationalist.

You have already been told how to learn what we believe. Go to Divine Liturgy. Pray the hours. If you're really gutsy, become a catechumen (you're not obligated to convert).

How do you think they did it in the first century? There were no books to throw at people. They went to church and learned from the bishop. Since the Orthodox Church is the New Testament Church, we still do it much the same way.

You're looking for something different. You don't want religion; you want forensics. You're clearly not looking to be in a relationship with Christ (a very dangerous thing, not constrained to our preconceived notions), rather you want to become an encyclopedia about Christ (a safe thing which can be controlled at one's leisure). Which is your right, but don't go around calling that Christianity.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #680 on: October 04, 2010, 10:11:38 AM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.

You won't let any interpretation be judged on its merits.
Because your interpretations have shown time and time again such gross twisting of even the literal meaning of the biblical text that they don't even merit the time of day.

Rather all  of you, especially you, refer to a nebulus Orthodox tradition as being right, and I am clearly wrong,  because I am ___ ____ ___ fill in the blanks.
You must have me confused with others who have been posting on this thread, since I'm not one of those dismissing your rantings as "Perssonism".

I tire of your evasion.
What's there to evade? You haven't made one attack on Orthodox Tradition that shows that you actually know what you're talking about.

I cited a simple text and its interpretation you all reject. BUT none of you cite the Orthodox tradition compelling your rejection.
If the candle won't light, there's no need to put it out with a fire hose.

Rather it appears anything I say is "Perssonism", to be rejected because it me saying it.
I reject it for the egregious mutilation of the text that it is. Show me an interpretation of the Scriptures that is actually faithful to the text and that makes logical sense, and maybe I'll take you seriously.

That is dishonest. Either you heed scripture, or you do not.
Scripture we heed. Your interpretations of Scripture that bear no semblance to even the literal sense of the text and that violate the rules of basic logic at every turn... NAH!

If I claimed to have extra biblical tradition that is the "word of God", it would be published and given out free of charge, if I could afford it.

You claim to have extra biblical tradition that is the Word of God, but refuse to share it with others.

I will even pay...state the price, I'll pay it.
But that never was the point of this thread. You come to this site to win us to your point of view.  It is therefore your point of view that is on trial here, not ours. We have no need to prove anything to you, since we are not preaching anything this audience has never heard; rather, you need to prove your new teaching to us.

It was your suggestion the Orthodox state clearly their view of the text, and I would respond.

And the genius of that struck me, like a diamond.

The efficiency...

I could quote what I found in the fathers, backing up my interpretation, but no one will discuss that.

You folks claimed your tradition is the Word of God, and that I am contradicting it, therefore it is very efficient you cite the precise Orthodox tradition I am contradicting, so I can respond.
And we probably shouldn't have made such a claim--actually, we never claimed that anything or anyone is the Word of God save for Jesus Christ Himself--since arguing with your interpretations of Scripture point by point only sidetracked you from your real burden by giving you something to argue with. We bear no responsibility to prove anything to you, though some have taken that upon themselves irresponsibly by arguing their claims to counter yours. You are the one who has something to prove, since you are the one introducing a new teaching to your audience. We need to stop making our counter claims, and you need to stop engaging them, all so you can focus on your real task of persuading us to embrace your point of view. The only thing we should be doing is pressing you for proof. But then this is an Internet forum, where gently persuading others to follow my lead is like herding cats. :-\ Oh, well.

AS for your private interpretation Paul is speaking about the church in Corinth only, here is one father that wouldn't agree:
Still arguing with your interpretation of what I believe, I see. Just as you mutilate the text of the Scriptures, so you mutilate the text of what I've written on this thread by only arguing with half of it. I'd ask you to go back and read the whole of what I said about St. Paul's preaching to the Corinthian church, but your insatiable desire to prove to yourself that you've won this argument would only continue to blind you to all but what you want to see.

Your response illustrates the inefficiency of discussing Bible with you folks, I suspect all of you are terrified you will inadvertently say something "unorthodox" and be summarily dismissed from the "Orthodox religion."

Rather than free in Christ, you are are enslaved to a tradition that you cannot reveal to outsiders, under threat of penalty.

Would they crucify you if you revealed Orthodox tradition to me?

The inefficiency of treating anything you gents say is obvious, you won't prove what you say is Orthodox. For all i know, you are offering private interpretations designed to protect your tradition from contradiction by someone like myself, who can easily rebut error and heresy.

That may protect odd and peculiar traditions from the teaching of Christ and His apostles, but it does nothing to advance your purpose of having this site, to show Orthodoxy is true to God's revelation.

Your traditions are likely odd and peculiar, because apparently you all are ashamed of them. Rather than point me to the definitive statement of Orthodoxy, especially its exegesis of this text, you evade....endlessly make it about me.

Its not about me, its about your odd and peculiar traditions. If you folks don't defend them here, now, who will?

Official Orthodox exegesis of scripture either is too embarrassing to be revealed to me, who can easily rebut foolishness, OR

having had almost 2,000 years, you have failed to accomplish any exegesis at all on scripture...Which causes one to conclude something entirely different:
[/i]

10 For the LORD has poured out on you The spirit of deep sleep, And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.
 11 The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I cannot, for it is sealed."
 12 Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I am not literate."
 13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
 14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
 (Isa 29:10-14 NKJ)


14 "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:`Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;
 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
 (Mat 13:14-15 NKJ)



So which is it:
1)Orthodox exegesis too foolish to be publicly revealed to Alfred Persson, for then he will document its untrue according to the Holy Scriptures.
2)Orthodox exegesis has been beyond our intellectual capacity these almost 2000 years.
3) Orthodox exgesis has been publicaly revealed to Alfred Persson, but it is beyond his intellectual capacity and he is too foolish to receive it, because it documents that his eisogesis is untrue according to the Holy Scriptures which the Orthodox wrote, canoniized, and transmitted before the untaught and unstable Alfred Persson received them and found them hard to understand, and twisted them to his own destruction

Because Alfred Persson believes his own tradition and not the Holy Scriptures.


Revealed to me? Where is it? Name of the book its written in.
http://www.conciliarpress.com/books/orthodox-study-bible/orthodox-study-bible-complete-hardcover.html
Try some milk before ordering steak.

That study Bible is rejected by many Orthodox

Despite positive endorsements2  by such prominent bishops as Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh  (a general editor) and Metropolitan Philip of New York (Chairman of the Board of Directors), some commentators have been critical of the results of the project that have been published so far. Critics tend to be concerned both with the version chosen (NKJV) and with the overall approach of the commentators. A review by Archimandrite  Ephrem (Lash), printed in the journal Sourozh stated that the commentary "feels far too much like a piece of evangelical propaganda decked out in the trappings of Orthodoxy."3  It remains to be seen how future publications of the project will address these criticisms.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Orthodox_Study_Bible


Authoritative exegesis of scripture is what want to inspect, to see if I agree or disagree with it.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #681 on: October 04, 2010, 10:28:16 AM »
...to see if I agree or disagree with it.
This is classic "solum verbum alfredi".  :D

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #682 on: October 04, 2010, 10:29:15 AM »
Because Alfred Persson believes his own tradition and not the Holy Scriptures.
Revealed to me? Where is it? Name of the book its written in.
http://www.conciliarpress.com/books/orthodox-study-bible/orthodox-study-bible-complete-hardcover.html
Try some milk before ordering steak.
That study Bible is rejected by many Orthodox

Despite positive endorsements2  by such prominent bishops as Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh  (a general editor) and Metropolitan Philip of New York (Chairman of the Board of Directors), some commentators have been critical of the results of the project that have been published so far. Critics tend to be concerned both with the version chosen (NKJV) and with the overall approach of the commentators. A review by Archimandrite  Ephrem (Lash), printed in the journal Sourozh stated that the commentary "feels far too much like a piece of evangelical propaganda decked out in the trappings of Orthodoxy."3  It remains to be seen how future publications of the project will address these criticisms.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Orthodox_Study_Bible


Authoritative exegesis of scripture is what want to inspect, to see if I agree or disagree with it.
They are on solid foods, so I can discuss with them how well the meat is prepared or overdone. You have been served the beef of St. John Chrysostom etc. several times, but you have shown you cannot handle solid food, so the baby formula will suffice.

Once you are weaned, THEN you can join us at the adult table and discuss the menu.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 10:32:43 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #683 on: October 04, 2010, 10:30:54 AM »
...to see if I agree or disagree with it.
This is classic "solum verbum alfredi".  :D
Yes. Do we go with that, or this?

Truly a difficult choice. ::)
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #684 on: October 04, 2010, 10:43:40 AM »
Furthermore,

1. In your opinion, can a human person be intimately and personally known by reading about them? Can a person's life and essence be captured in written words?

2. Same question, but about the Holy Spirit.

I fail to see the relevancy of the question, until you "connect the dots" to my request for "official exegesis of scripture", I see it as more evasion.

I've tried to discuss Bible with you folks, but rarely do you respond with exegesis of Scripture, its always ME who is ___ ____ ___ (fill in the blanks with 99.9% of the responses I always receive).

So its a waste of time I tell you what I think a text says, you won't discuss that anyway, except to deny it says it.

But if I treat what Orthodoxy says about a verse, then you can't evade the issue when I contradict it.

Then the usual "that is Perssonism" just won't do, not if you want to defend Orthodoxy.

So why evade the question, Catholics post their Catechism for all to see. Protestants have their confessions of faith:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

AND both have commentaries so one can ascertain what they believe about specific Bible texts.

So what's wrong with the Orthodox? Don't they want others to know what they believe.

Show me the "official statement" of Orthodox belief...and point me to official or authoritative Orthodox Commentary on the Scriptures.


Spoken like a true rationalist.

You have already been told how to learn what we believe. Go to Divine Liturgy. Pray the hours. If you're really gutsy, become a catechumen (you're not obligated to convert).

How do you think they did it in the first century? There were no books to throw at people. They went to church and learned from the bishop. Since the Orthodox Church is the New Testament Church, we still do it much the same way.

You're looking for something different. You don't want religion; you want forensics. You're clearly not looking to be in a relationship with Christ (a very dangerous thing, not constrained to our preconceived notions), rather you want to become an encyclopedia about Christ (a safe thing which can be controlled at one's leisure). Which is your right, but don't go around calling that Christianity.

Its been almost 2,000 years, more than enough time to systematize belief and post it for all to see.

I already am in Christ, that is proved by my obedience to the Word of God:

 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jo 4:6 NKJ)

The ONLY "gift" of the Holy Spirit Satan cannot  counterfeit, is obedience to the Father, to His Word:

 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
 21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
 23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
 (Mat 7:20-23 NKJ)

 23 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: "How can Satan cast out Satan?
 24 "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
 25 "And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
 26 "And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end.
 (Mar 3:23-26 NKJ)

(Christ says Satan cannot cast out (ekballo) Satan, BUT also that Satan can cast out (ekballo), via antichrist spirits (Mat 7:22-23) The paradox is resolved by  the meaning of the word "cast out," it can mean violently cast out, or "a stern request to go out."

Christ's point is Satan cannot work against himself, therefore he cannot compel obedience to God, that destroys his own kingdom.)


So when I cite scripture, and its natural meaning, and you folks call me names, and allege all sorts of things about my background and motives, then you document disobedience to the Word of God, and that you do NOT have a personal relationship with Him.

If you treat my interpretation critically, citing details in the text that disprove my interpretation, then you document obedience to the Word of God, and that you do have a personal relationship with Him.


Obedience to scripture is the "outward evidence you have received the Holy Spirit":

 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jo 4:6 NKJ)

 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
 41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
 (Act 2:38-42 KJV)

23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
 (Joh 14:23 NKJ)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1Jo 2:3 KJV)

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. (1Jo 3:24 KJV)



1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

 (Deu 13:1-4 KJV)


20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 KJV)

 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (2Ti 2:15 KJV)

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 (2Ti 3:16-1 KJV)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 11:14:47 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #685 on: October 04, 2010, 11:27:24 AM »
Many of us have already posted that we must know Jesus Christ as Lord & savior, worship the Trinity in spirit and in truth, follow the commands to love God & neighbor, live by the 10 commandments, confess our sins ongoingly, & support evangelism. This is all Biblical what is the ongoing point here? Do we have to post lines of scripture to amplify our faith that is found in scripture?
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #686 on: October 04, 2010, 11:27:43 AM »
Its been almost 2,000 years, more than enough time to systematize belief and post it for all to see.

Systematic theology is part of your traditions of men.

That's why I asked you:

Quote
1. In your opinion, can a human person be intimately and personally known by reading about them? Can a person's life and essence be captured in written words?

2. Same question, but about the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ is not a system to be analyzed. Yet when you reduce the Christian religion to knowing the right rules and following them, as you have so clearly demonstrated, you have thrown away Christ and replaced him with an idol of your own creation.

Like I said a long time ago in this thread, you are not doing religion, you are doing philosophy. Again, that is fine, but don't call it Christianity. Call it Christism or something.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 11:28:32 AM by bogdan »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #687 on: October 04, 2010, 11:47:37 AM »
Its been almost 2,000 years, more than enough time to systematize belief and post it for all to see.

Systematic theology is part of your traditions of men.

That's why I asked you:

Quote
1. In your opinion, can a human person be intimately and personally known by reading about them? Can a person's life and essence be captured in written words?

2. Same question, but about the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ is not a system to be analyzed. Yet when you reduce the Christian religion to knowing the right rules and following them, as you have so clearly demonstrated, you have thrown away Christ and replaced him with an idol of your own creation.

Like I said a long time ago in this thread, you are not doing religion, you are doing philosophy. Again, that is fine, but don't call it Christianity. Call it Christism or something.
Perssonism?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #688 on: October 04, 2010, 11:55:34 AM »
Its been almost 2,000 years, more than enough time to systematize belief and post it for all to see.

Systematic theology is part of your traditions of men.

That's why I asked you:

Quote
1. In your opinion, can a human person be intimately and personally known by reading about them? Can a person's life and essence be captured in written words?

2. Same question, but about the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ is not a system to be analyzed. Yet when you reduce the Christian religion to knowing the right rules and following them, as you have so clearly demonstrated, you have thrown away Christ and replaced him with an idol of your own creation.

Like I said a long time ago in this thread, you are not doing religion, you are doing philosophy. Again, that is fine, but don't call it Christianity. Call it Christism or something.
Perssonism?

LOL. Oh right, how could I have forgotten?  :P

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #689 on: October 04, 2010, 11:56:26 AM »
http://www.reformed.org/index.html (last accessed on October 4, 2010 @ 11:54 AM EDT)

Quote
Q. 158. By whom is the Word of God to be preached?

A. The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, and also duly approved and called to that office.

OK Alfred, prove to us that you are sufficiently gifted and duly approved and called to preach the Word of God (or Perssonism, which ever comes first)?

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #690 on: October 04, 2010, 01:08:30 PM »
The Fathers are hearsay, nothing more. The earliest fathers were not afforded opportunity for careful exegesis of scripture and given to making imprecise statements in the heat of the moment. Later fathers reflect their own beliefs, not necessarily the same as the apostles.

Scripture alone is oral testimony of what Christ and the apostles believed.

Sometimes the fathers agree with this, sometimes they ignorantly do not. They are snapshots in time revealing the departure from the teaching of the apostles, to their own traditions.

They made the fundamental error of assuming traditions were passed on, unchanged by the generation before. That never happens in history, to any tradition. It would be special pleading to insist, against all experience, that it happened to Christian tradition.

The apostles were so aware of the danger their tradition would be changed, they constantly exhorted it be delivered to faithful men...but alas, that only slowed the process of contamination.

God's solution was to prohibit the addition of any tradition to His words, but mankind has never obeyed God, so why would they in this:

 2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 NKJ)


Calling your tradition the "word of God" (as some of you do) is rebellion against God. He clearly forbade adding to His Holy Word, your tradition.


The only way one can prove or disprove Orthodoxy is by the scriptures, they are sufficient above all. That is what Christ and His apostles did, quote scripture to prove they were speaking according to the truth of God:

KJV  Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 (Act 17:11 KJV)





I am mainly responding to the part in blue-  Mr Persson, you do realize that Christianity IS special pleading?  That is, all the religions of the world are false, the inventions of men or demons, and only in Christ have we received the complete and whole Truth?  Every religion claims to be divinely inspired, the Hindu have claimed visits from incarnate God, Mohammed and Joseph Smith both claimed angelic revelations, and Judaism even holds to the Old Testament.

The Tradition you malign is the same Tradition that gave you the Scriptures in canonical form.  If you reject the teachings of the men who preserved the Scripture, then why do you accept their testimony regarding what those Scriptures contain?  What reason do you have for rejecting the pseudo-Gospels, epistles, etc that flourished in the second century?  Do you accept the Deuterocanonical writings in the Old Testament?  Why or why not?

If Christianity is true, and not some other religion, then you are accepting special pleading in the case of the Lord Jesus Christ.  The only way not to accept special pleading is to hold to some atheistic or agnostic viewpoint that declares since all other religions are false, Christianity must be false as well.  If you do accept the special pleadings of Christianity, that there is only One God, only One Lord God Incarnate, that there is a Holy Spirit who spake to the prophets and apostles, and that all three Persons are one and the same God; then why is the idea that the Church preserved Tradition as it was delivered such a big pill for you to swallow?

A God who can cause a Virgin to give birth, a God who can conquer death by dying, a God who can descend upon His Church and bring forth true prophecy is a God who can keep His Church (the Body of Christ, as St Paul mentions time and again) from error and vain invention.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #691 on: October 04, 2010, 02:50:32 PM »
Your response illustrates the inefficiency of discussing Bible with you folks, I suspect all of you are terrified you will inadvertently say something "unorthodox" and be summarily dismissed from the "Orthodox religion."

Rather than free in Christ, you are are enslaved to a tradition that you cannot reveal to outsiders, under threat of penalty.
Where did you come up with that idea?

Would they crucify you if you revealed Orthodox tradition to me?
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #692 on: October 04, 2010, 02:53:17 PM »
AS for your private interpretation Paul is speaking about the church in Corinth only, here is one father that wouldn't agree:
Empty Boxes That Once Stored Wealth. Chrysostom: Truly, the church was more like heaven in Paul’s time, because the Spirit governed everything and moved each one of the members in turn. But now it seems we have only the symbols of those gifts. We also have only two or three speaking in the service, but these are only a pale shadow of what prevailed then. The present church is like a woman who has fallen from her former, prosperous days and who retains only the outward signs of that prosperity, displaying the boxes and caskets in which she kept her wealth, but which are now empty. This is true not only in the matter of gifts but in life and virtue as well. Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians 36.7.2
Bray, G. L. (1999). 1-2 Corinthians. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture NT 7. (145). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.
Alfred, I will commend you for going to this commentary. There are some Orthodox Christians who are familiar with it and do use it. But please note that it does have its faults - not all ancient Christian authors are Orthodox. You also need to realize that you can't substitute a commentary for reading the Fathers any more than you can substitute a commentary for reading the Scriptures.

Let me suggest that you take some time to read the Fathers themselves for if you did, you would have read more than what G.L. Bray quoted:
Quote
What now can be more awful than these things? For in truth the Church was a heaven then, the Spirit governing all things, and moving each one of the rulers and making him inspired. But now we retain only the symbols of those gifts. For now also we speak two or three, and in turn, and when one is silent, another begins. But these are only signs and memorials of those things. Wherefore when we begin to speak, the people respond, “with thy Spirit” indicating that of old they thus used to speak, not of their own wisdom, but moved by the Spirit. But not so now: (I speak of mine own case so far.)  But the present Church is like a woman who hath fallen from her former prosperous days, and in many respects retains the symbols only of that ancient prosperity; displaying indeed the repositories and caskets of her golden ornaments, but bereft of her wealth: such an one doth the present Church resemble. And I say not this in respect of gifts: for it were nothing marvelous if it were this only: but in respect also of life and virtue.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxxvii.html
Notice the words of St. John Chrysostom that I have bolded. He has no problem referring to specific situations, just as the Apostle Paul did. Commentators like Bray edit texts according to their personal interpretation.

Alfred, it isn't right to get an idea into your head and then go around finding "proof texts" in Scripture or in the Fathers. It just doesn't work.

And no, we're not going to prove Orthodoxy by quoting any text. That can no more be done than quoting a text to prove that a mother loves her child, or that a sunset is beautiful. Can you do that? That's how you want to prove how to understand God and have a relationship with Him. It isn't working.


The Fathers are hearsay, nothing more. The earliest fathers were not afforded opportunity for careful exegesis of scripture and given to making imprecise statements in the heat of the moment. Later fathers reflect their own beliefs, not necessarily the same as the apostles.

Scripture alone is oral testimony of what Christ and the apostles believed.

Sometimes the fathers agree with this, sometimes they ignorantly do not. They are snapshots in time revealing the departure from the teaching of the apostles, to their own traditions.

They made the fundamental error of assuming traditions were passed on, unchanged by the generation before. That never happens in history, to any tradition. It would be special pleading to insist, against all experience, that it happened to Christian tradition.

The apostles were so aware of the danger their tradition would be changed, they constantly exhorted it be delivered to faithful men...but alas, that only slowed the process of contamination.

God's solution was to prohibit the addition of any tradition to His words, but mankind has never obeyed God, so why would they in this:

 2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 NKJ)
More assertions. You have any proof for these claims?

Calling your tradition the "word of God" (as some of you do) is rebellion against God. He clearly forbade adding to His Holy Word, your tradition.
I see that you are still attacking Tradition as you define it and not as we have defined it for you. Why should we argue with someone who shows no desire whatsoever to understand what we truly believe but would rather argue against straw men of his own making?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 03:02:28 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #693 on: October 04, 2010, 02:59:44 PM »
The Fathers are hearsay, nothing more. The earliest fathers were not afforded opportunity for careful exegesis of scripture and given to making imprecise statements in the heat of the moment. Later fathers reflect their own beliefs, not necessarily the same as the apostles.

Scripture alone is oral testimony of what Christ and the apostles believed.

Sometimes the fathers agree with this, sometimes they ignorantly do not. They are snapshots in time revealing the departure from the teaching of the apostles, to their own traditions.

They made the fundamental error of assuming traditions were passed on, unchanged by the generation before. That never happens in history, to any tradition. It would be special pleading to insist, against all experience, that it happened to Christian tradition.

The apostles were so aware of the danger their tradition would be changed, they constantly exhorted it be delivered to faithful men...but alas, that only slowed the process of contamination.

God's solution was to prohibit the addition of any tradition to His words, but mankind has never obeyed God, so why would they in this:

 2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 NKJ)


Calling your tradition the "word of God" (as some of you do) is rebellion against God. He clearly forbade adding to His Holy Word, your tradition.


The only way one can prove or disprove Orthodoxy is by the scriptures, they are sufficient above all. That is what Christ and His apostles did, quote scripture to prove they were speaking according to the truth of God:

KJV  Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 (Act 17:11 KJV)





I am mainly responding to the part in blue-  Mr Persson, you do realize that Christianity IS special pleading?  That is, all the religions of the world are false, the inventions of men or demons, and only in Christ have we received the complete and whole Truth?  Every religion claims to be divinely inspired, the Hindu have claimed visits from incarnate God, Mohammed and Joseph Smith both claimed angelic revelations, and Judaism even holds to the Old Testament.

The Tradition you malign is the same Tradition that gave you the Scriptures in canonical form.  If you reject the teachings of the men who preserved the Scripture, then why do you accept their testimony regarding what those Scriptures contain?  What reason do you have for rejecting the pseudo-Gospels, epistles, etc that flourished in the second century?  Do you accept the Deuterocanonical writings in the Old Testament?  Why or why not?

If Christianity is true, and not some other religion, then you are accepting special pleading in the case of the Lord Jesus Christ.  The only way not to accept special pleading is to hold to some atheistic or agnostic viewpoint that declares since all other religions are false, Christianity must be false as well.  If you do accept the special pleadings of Christianity, that there is only One God, only One Lord God Incarnate, that there is a Holy Spirit who spake to the prophets and apostles, and that all three Persons are one and the same God; then why is the idea that the Church preserved Tradition as it was delivered such a big pill for you to swallow?

A God who can cause a Virgin to give birth, a God who can conquer death by dying, a God who can descend upon His Church and bring forth true prophecy is a God who can keep His Church (the Body of Christ, as St Paul mentions time and again) from error and vain invention.

Asking to see the tradition, read it for myself is "maligning it?"

How so?

How is asking to see the tradition maligning it?


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #694 on: October 04, 2010, 03:00:30 PM »
AS for your private interpretation Paul is speaking about the church in Corinth only, here is one father that wouldn't agree:
Empty Boxes That Once Stored Wealth. Chrysostom: Truly, the church was more like heaven in Paul’s time, because the Spirit governed everything and moved each one of the members in turn. But now it seems we have only the symbols of those gifts. We also have only two or three speaking in the service, but these are only a pale shadow of what prevailed then. The present church is like a woman who has fallen from her former, prosperous days and who retains only the outward signs of that prosperity, displaying the boxes and caskets in which she kept her wealth, but which are now empty. This is true not only in the matter of gifts but in life and virtue as well. Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians 36.7.2
Bray, G. L. (1999). 1-2 Corinthians. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture NT 7. (145). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.
Alfred, I will commend you for going to this commentary. There are some Orthodox Christians who are familiar with it and do use it. But please note that it does have its faults - not all ancient Christian authors are Orthodox. You also need to realize that you can't substitute a commentary for reading the Fathers any more than you can substitute a commentary for reading the Scriptures.

Let me suggest that you take some time to read the Fathers themselves for if you did, you would have read more than what G.L. Bray quoted:
Quote
What now can be more awful than these things? For in truth the Church was a heaven then, the Spirit governing all things, and moving each one of the rulers and making him inspired. But now we retain only the symbols of those gifts. For now also we speak two or three, and in turn, and when one is silent, another begins. But these are only signs and memorials of those things. Wherefore when we begin to speak, the people respond, “with thy Spirit” indicating that of old they thus used to speak, not of their own wisdom, but moved by the Spirit. But not so now: (I speak of mine own case so far.)  But the present Church is like a woman who hath fallen from her former prosperous days, and in many respects retains the symbols only of that ancient prosperity; displaying indeed the repositories and caskets of her golden ornaments, but bereft of her wealth: such an one doth the present Church resemble. And I say not this in respect of gifts: for it were nothing marvelous if it were this only: but in respect also of life and virtue.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxxvii.html
Notice the words of St. John Chrysostom that I have bolded. He has no problem referring to specific situations, just as the Apostle Paul did. Commentators like Bray edit texts according to their personal interpretation.

Alfred, it isn't right to get an idea into your head and then go around finding "proof texts" in Scripture or in the Fathers. It just doesn't work.

And no, we're not going to prove Orthodoxy by quoting any text. That can no more be done than quoting a text to prove that a mother loves her child, or that a sunset is beautiful. Can you do that? That's how you want to prove how to understand God and have a relationship with Him. It isn't working.


The Fathers are hearsay, nothing more. The earliest fathers were not afforded opportunity for careful exegesis of scripture and given to making imprecise statements in the heat of the moment. Later fathers reflect their own beliefs, not necessarily the same as the apostles.

Scripture alone is oral testimony of what Christ and the apostles believed.

Sometimes the fathers agree with this, sometimes they ignorantly do not. They are snapshots in time revealing the departure from the teaching of the apostles, to their own traditions.

They made the fundamental error of assuming traditions were passed on, unchanged by the generation before. That never happens in history, to any tradition. It would be special pleading to insist, against all experience, that it happened to Christian tradition.

The apostles were so aware of the danger their tradition would be changed, they constantly exhorted it be delivered to faithful men...but alas, that only slowed the process of contamination.

God's solution was to prohibit the addition of any tradition to His words, but mankind has never obeyed God, so why would they in this:

 2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 NKJ)


Calling your tradition the "word of God" (as some of you do) is rebellion against God. He clearly forbade adding to His Holy Word, your tradition.


The only way one can prove or disprove Orthodoxy is by the scriptures, they are sufficient above all. That is what Christ and His apostles did, quote scripture to prove they were speaking according to the truth of God:

KJV  Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 (Act 17:11 KJV)
More assertions. You have any proof for these claims?

What's your tradition say about that text? I'll respond to that.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #695 on: October 04, 2010, 03:03:14 PM »
AS for your private interpretation Paul is speaking about the church in Corinth only, here is one father that wouldn't agree:
Empty Boxes That Once Stored Wealth. Chrysostom: Truly, the church was more like heaven in Paul’s time, because the Spirit governed everything and moved each one of the members in turn. But now it seems we have only the symbols of those gifts. We also have only two or three speaking in the service, but these are only a pale shadow of what prevailed then. The present church is like a woman who has fallen from her former, prosperous days and who retains only the outward signs of that prosperity, displaying the boxes and caskets in which she kept her wealth, but which are now empty. This is true not only in the matter of gifts but in life and virtue as well. Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians 36.7.2
Bray, G. L. (1999). 1-2 Corinthians. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture NT 7. (145). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.
Alfred, I will commend you for going to this commentary. There are some Orthodox Christians who are familiar with it and do use it. But please note that it does have its faults - not all ancient Christian authors are Orthodox. You also need to realize that you can't substitute a commentary for reading the Fathers any more than you can substitute a commentary for reading the Scriptures.

Let me suggest that you take some time to read the Fathers themselves for if you did, you would have read more than what G.L. Bray quoted:
Quote
What now can be more awful than these things? For in truth the Church was a heaven then, the Spirit governing all things, and moving each one of the rulers and making him inspired. But now we retain only the symbols of those gifts. For now also we speak two or three, and in turn, and when one is silent, another begins. But these are only signs and memorials of those things. Wherefore when we begin to speak, the people respond, “with thy Spirit” indicating that of old they thus used to speak, not of their own wisdom, but moved by the Spirit. But not so now: (I speak of mine own case so far.)  But the present Church is like a woman who hath fallen from her former prosperous days, and in many respects retains the symbols only of that ancient prosperity; displaying indeed the repositories and caskets of her golden ornaments, but bereft of her wealth: such an one doth the present Church resemble. And I say not this in respect of gifts: for it were nothing marvelous if it were this only: but in respect also of life and virtue.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxxvii.html
Notice the words of St. John Chrysostom that I have bolded. He has no problem referring to specific situations, just as the Apostle Paul did. Commentators like Bray edit texts according to their personal interpretation.

Alfred, it isn't right to get an idea into your head and then go around finding "proof texts" in Scripture or in the Fathers. It just doesn't work.

And no, we're not going to prove Orthodoxy by quoting any text. That can no more be done than quoting a text to prove that a mother loves her child, or that a sunset is beautiful. Can you do that? That's how you want to prove how to understand God and have a relationship with Him. It isn't working.


The Fathers are hearsay, nothing more. The earliest fathers were not afforded opportunity for careful exegesis of scripture and given to making imprecise statements in the heat of the moment. Later fathers reflect their own beliefs, not necessarily the same as the apostles.

Scripture alone is oral testimony of what Christ and the apostles believed.

Sometimes the fathers agree with this, sometimes they ignorantly do not. They are snapshots in time revealing the departure from the teaching of the apostles, to their own traditions.

They made the fundamental error of assuming traditions were passed on, unchanged by the generation before. That never happens in history, to any tradition. It would be special pleading to insist, against all experience, that it happened to Christian tradition.

The apostles were so aware of the danger their tradition would be changed, they constantly exhorted it be delivered to faithful men...but alas, that only slowed the process of contamination.

God's solution was to prohibit the addition of any tradition to His words, but mankind has never obeyed God, so why would they in this:

 2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 NKJ)


Calling your tradition the "word of God" (as some of you do) is rebellion against God. He clearly forbade adding to His Holy Word, your tradition.


The only way one can prove or disprove Orthodoxy is by the scriptures, they are sufficient above all. That is what Christ and His apostles did, quote scripture to prove they were speaking according to the truth of God:

KJV  Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 (Act 17:11 KJV)
More assertions. You have any proof for these claims?

What's your tradition say about that text? I'll respond to that.
You're not getting it. >:( We have no further desire to share our Tradition with someone who has demonstrated that his sole intent is to twist it into something we can't even recognize as our Tradition and attack us.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 04:19:37 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #696 on: October 04, 2010, 03:32:21 PM »
The Fathers are hearsay, nothing more. The earliest fathers were not afforded opportunity for careful exegesis of scripture and given to making imprecise statements in the heat of the moment. Later fathers reflect their own beliefs, not necessarily the same as the apostles.

Scripture alone is oral testimony of what Christ and the apostles believed.

Sometimes the fathers agree with this, sometimes they ignorantly do not. They are snapshots in time revealing the departure from the teaching of the apostles, to their own traditions.

They made the fundamental error of assuming traditions were passed on, unchanged by the generation before. That never happens in history, to any tradition. It would be special pleading to insist, against all experience, that it happened to Christian tradition.

The apostles were so aware of the danger their tradition would be changed, they constantly exhorted it be delivered to faithful men...but alas, that only slowed the process of contamination.

God's solution was to prohibit the addition of any tradition to His words, but mankind has never obeyed God, so why would they in this:

 2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 NKJ)


Calling your tradition the "word of God" (as some of you do) is rebellion against God. He clearly forbade adding to His Holy Word, your tradition.


The only way one can prove or disprove Orthodoxy is by the scriptures, they are sufficient above all. That is what Christ and His apostles did, quote scripture to prove they were speaking according to the truth of God:

KJV  Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 (Act 17:11 KJV)





I am mainly responding to the part in blue-  Mr Persson, you do realize that Christianity IS special pleading?  That is, all the religions of the world are false, the inventions of men or demons, and only in Christ have we received the complete and whole Truth?  Every religion claims to be divinely inspired, the Hindu have claimed visits from incarnate God, Mohammed and Joseph Smith both claimed angelic revelations, and Judaism even holds to the Old Testament.

The Tradition you malign is the same Tradition that gave you the Scriptures in canonical form.  If you reject the teachings of the men who preserved the Scripture, then why do you accept their testimony regarding what those Scriptures contain?  What reason do you have for rejecting the pseudo-Gospels, epistles, etc that flourished in the second century?  Do you accept the Deuterocanonical writings in the Old Testament?  Why or why not?

If Christianity is true, and not some other religion, then you are accepting special pleading in the case of the Lord Jesus Christ.  The only way not to accept special pleading is to hold to some atheistic or agnostic viewpoint that declares since all other religions are false, Christianity must be false as well.  If you do accept the special pleadings of Christianity, that there is only One God, only One Lord God Incarnate, that there is a Holy Spirit who spake to the prophets and apostles, and that all three Persons are one and the same God; then why is the idea that the Church preserved Tradition as it was delivered such a big pill for you to swallow?

A God who can cause a Virgin to give birth, a God who can conquer death by dying, a God who can descend upon His Church and bring forth true prophecy is a God who can keep His Church (the Body of Christ, as St Paul mentions time and again) from error and vain invention.

Asking to see the tradition, read it for myself is "maligning it?"

How so?

How is asking to see the tradition maligning it?




Quote
Sometimes the fathers agree with this, sometimes they ignorantly do not. They are snapshots in time revealing the departure from the teaching of the apostles, to their own traditions.

Quote
They made the fundamental error of assuming traditions were passed on, unchanged by the generation before. That never happens in history, to any tradition. It would be special pleading to insist, against all experience, that it happened to Christian tradition.

Quote
Calling your tradition the "word of God" (as some of you do) is rebellion against God. He clearly forbade adding to His Holy Word, your tradition.

From Meriam-Webster http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/malign?show=1&t=1286220603

 "to utter injuriously misleading or false reports about : speak evil of"

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #697 on: October 04, 2010, 04:22:18 PM »
Alfred,
If nothing else, I am impressed by your endurance.  :laugh:
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #698 on: October 04, 2010, 05:29:02 PM »
More on the fruits of 2,000 years of Christian Orthodoxy. From a review by Fredrica Mathews Greene of the book:

Father Arseny: A Cloud of Witnesses (St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 2001)
translated by Vera Bouteneff

http://www.frederica.com/writings/father-arseny.html

.... the book opens with dawn in the sub-freezing gulag, as the feeble, aging priest struggles to light a fire for the barracks. Clergy were despised by everyone, even other prisoners; Christians were believed to be stupid. Yet in the course of this typical day Fr. Arseny endures beatings and abuse with patience, while caring for two sick prisoners and sharing with them his rations. One invalid is a criminal, and the other a deposed official who had signed Fr. Arseny’s own sentence. Through the course of succeeding chapters both become converts, and take the priest as their spiritual father.

The character of this kindly, long-suffering priest contrasts with the American expectation of what a successful Christian leader would be like: glib, brisk, upbeat, forceful. Fr. Arseny represents a different kind of Christian spirituality, one associated more with the Desert Fathers and early Christian spirituality.

Fr. Arseny differs in another way: he has contact with the supernatural. American Christian spokesmen live in an orderly, corporate sort of world, but Fr. Arseny is frequently shown at crux of miraculous events. In one incident, he and a young man are thrown into a punishment cell, a small metal cubicle exposed to -22 degree temperatures. The guards expected to find both dead when they unlocked the door 48 hours later. Instead, they found the prisoners rested and radiant, with a thick coat of frost on their clothing. As the young man described it later, when he collapsed in despair he saw the dark cell flooded with light, and Fr. Arseny praying in priestly garments. The young man, like most others who knew Fr. Arseny, was transformed by his encounter.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #699 on: October 04, 2010, 06:35:05 PM »
http://www.reformed.org/index.html (last accessed on October 4, 2010 @ 11:54 AM EDT)

Quote
Q. 158. By whom is the Word of God to be preached?

A. The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, and also duly approved and called to that office.

OK Alfred, prove to us that you are sufficiently gifted and duly approved and called to preach the Word of God (or Perssonism, which ever comes first)?

I don't claim to be "reformed" and they didn't send me, Christ did:

30 "He must increase, but I must decrease.
 31 "He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
 32 "And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony.
 33 "He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.
 34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
 35 "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
 36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 (Joh 3:30-1 NKJ)

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2Co 4:6 NKJ)

I posted that link, and one to the Catholic catechism, to contrast the lack of an Orthodox link detailing the Orthodox faith in a systematic way.

You've had 2,000 years to get your act together, yet when I want to know what the Orthodox teaching is on 1 Cor 14:36, no one seems to know, not even you folks.

That is sad indeed.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #700 on: October 04, 2010, 06:51:34 PM »
More on the fruits of 2,000 years of Christian Orthodoxy. From a review by Fredrica Mathews Greene of the book:

Father Arseny: A Cloud of Witnesses (St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 2001)
translated by Vera Bouteneff

http://www.frederica.com/writings/father-arseny.html

.... the book opens with dawn in the sub-freezing gulag, as the feeble, aging priest struggles to light a fire for the barracks. Clergy were despised by everyone, even other prisoners; Christians were believed to be stupid. Yet in the course of this typical day Fr. Arseny endures beatings and abuse with patience, while caring for two sick prisoners and sharing with them his rations. One invalid is a criminal, and the other a deposed official who had signed Fr. Arseny’s own sentence. Through the course of succeeding chapters both become converts, and take the priest as their spiritual father.

The character of this kindly, long-suffering priest contrasts with the American expectation of what a successful Christian leader would be like: glib, brisk, upbeat, forceful. Fr. Arseny represents a different kind of Christian spirituality, one associated more with the Desert Fathers and early Christian spirituality.

Fr. Arseny differs in another way: he has contact with the supernatural. American Christian spokesmen live in an orderly, corporate sort of world, but Fr. Arseny is frequently shown at crux of miraculous events. In one incident, he and a young man are thrown into a punishment cell, a small metal cubicle exposed to -22 degree temperatures. The guards expected to find both dead when they unlocked the door 48 hours later. Instead, they found the prisoners rested and radiant, with a thick coat of frost on their clothing. As the young man described it later, when he collapsed in despair he saw the dark cell flooded with light, and Fr. Arseny praying in priestly garments. The young man, like most others who knew Fr. Arseny, was transformed by his encounter.

Evidently you cite his example as a proof of Orthodoxy. That is a failure of induction, he could very well be a superb Christian, and Orthodoxy still infested with error.

To illustrate, there are many excellent Christians who also speak in tongues, it does not follow the gift is for our day. A study of the gift shows it ended with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem...prior to that it was a sign to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. The dispensation ended with the Temple's destruction:

 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 KJV)

 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1Co 14:22 KJV)

The gift ceased long ago, as the NT was completed.



Likewise, the only sound test of Orthodoxy is the testimony of scripture. What is true, or false, is determined by what is consistent, or inconsistent, with scripture, God's Word of Truth.

Hence I want to see precise Orthodox exegesis of the 1 Cor 14:36, to know the fruit of Orthodoxy, if its good or bad.

What is good, is in accord with the Father, what is bad, is not:

 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Mat 7:20 NKJ)

« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 06:57:48 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #701 on: October 04, 2010, 06:54:11 PM »
http://www.reformed.org/index.html (last accessed on October 4, 2010 @ 11:54 AM EDT)

Quote
Q. 158. By whom is the Word of God to be preached?

A. The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, and also duly approved and called to that office.

OK Alfred, prove to us that you are sufficiently gifted and duly approved and called to preach the Word of God (or Perssonism, which ever comes first)?

I don't claim to be "reformed" and they didn't send me, Christ did:
Uhh, Alfred, that's the very assertion SolEX01 wants you to prove. How can we know that Christ sent you, that you didn't just appoint yourself for this task?

You've had 2,000 years to get your act together, yet when I want to know what the Orthodox teaching is on 1 Cor 14:36, no one seems to know, not even you folks.
Oh, we know. We just don't want to tell you. A proverb about casting pearls before our enemies comes to mind.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 06:55:44 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #702 on: October 04, 2010, 06:57:08 PM »

I posted that link, and one to the Catholic catechism, to contrast the lack of an Orthodox link detailing the Orthodox faith in a systematic way.

You've had 2,000 years to get your act together, yet when I want to know what the Orthodox teaching is on 1 Cor 14:36, no one seems to know, not even you folks.

That is sad indeed.

Yet, Alfred, you have been told several times how to find the answers to your questions:

1) Attend the services of the church
2) Read / say the daily prayers
3) Speak with a priest

Etc. You want a book. Always a book. You think a book would solve all this. The only problem is that the Word of God is not a book. Being a Christian is not reading a book about Christ. Christ -- the Word of God -- is not limited to words on a page. Instead, He lives and breathes on the earth through the Holy Spirit bringing LIFE to the church.

If you wonder about a certain scriptural passage, and what the Orthodox think about it -- do what the Orthodox do.  Go to church, participate in its life (prayers, fasting, almsgiving, festal celebrations), talk to the priest. You will learn the living life of faith as you go.

It's living, it's flourishing ~ it's deep and real and rich. You say it's sad -- knowing that so many Protestants are missing out on the living, rich faith God has for them is what's really sad. Seeing Christans committed to something that cannot stand on its own without factions and divisions (meaning, sola scriptura) is what's sad.

Do you think you'd get a completely different faith from place to place around the world, the way we describe Orthodoxy? But, no, that's what you get with Protestantism. In eastern Orthodoxy we have ONE faith around the world.  I could go to a Divine Liturgy in America, Russia, England, Greece, Romania or wherever and be able to fully take part; to fully trust that what is happening there is the same thing as what's happening at my home church that same weekend. They are reading the same Scripture passages, honoring the same saints (can vary based on location, since there are SO many saints to honor), being served the same Eucharist. This CANNOT be said about the protestant church.

And this is what it comes down to -- is the church ONE, or is it not? Ours is -- is yours? (Be truthful.)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #703 on: October 04, 2010, 07:01:22 PM »
http://www.reformed.org/index.html (last accessed on October 4, 2010 @ 11:54 AM EDT)

Quote
Q. 158. By whom is the Word of God to be preached?

A. The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, and also duly approved and called to that office.

OK Alfred, prove to us that you are sufficiently gifted and duly approved and called to preach the Word of God (or Perssonism, which ever comes first)?

I don't claim to be "reformed" and they didn't send me, Christ did:

30 "He must increase, but I must decrease.
 31 "He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
 32 "And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony.
 33 "He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.
 34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
 35 "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
 36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 (Joh 3:30-1 NKJ)

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2Co 4:6 NKJ)

I posted that link, and one to the Catholic catechism, to contrast the lack of an Orthodox link detailing the Orthodox faith in a systematic way.

You've had 2,000 years to get your act together, yet when I want to know what the Orthodox teaching is on 1 Cor 14:36, no one seems to know, not even you folks.

That is sad indeed.

What's the point? You wouldn't consider our catechism authoritative, nor would you consider our systematic theology valid.

You came into this house as a guest, and rather than being polite and respectful like most others are, you immediately began smashing things. (Indeed, you informed us that was the very reason you came.) Now you're sore that we won't tell you where the china cabinet is.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 07:03:30 PM by bogdan »

Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #704 on: October 04, 2010, 07:02:51 PM »
You came into this house as a guest, and rather than being polite and respectful like most others are, you immediately began smashing things. Now you're sore that we won't tell you where the china cabinet is.

 :laugh:

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #705 on: October 04, 2010, 07:05:39 PM »
http://www.reformed.org/index.html (last accessed on October 4, 2010 @ 11:54 AM EDT)

Quote
Q. 158. By whom is the Word of God to be preached?

A. The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, and also duly approved and called to that office.

OK Alfred, prove to us that you are sufficiently gifted and duly approved and called to preach the Word of God (or Perssonism, which ever comes first)?

I don't claim to be "reformed" and they didn't send me, Christ did:
Uhh, Alfred, that's the very assertion SolEX01 wants you to prove. How can we know that Christ sent you, that you didn't just appoint yourself for this task?

You've had 2,000 years to get your act together, yet when I want to know what the Orthodox teaching is on 1 Cor 14:36, no one seems to know, not even you folks.
Oh, we know. We just don't want to tell you. A proverb about casting pearls before our enemies comes to mind.

21 Others said, "These are not the words of one who has a demon. (Joh 10:21 NKJ)

 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
(1Jo 4:6 NKJ)

Its not about me, its about Orthodoxy, whether it hears the apostles, whether its consistent with scripture.

I am not your enemy, I certainly aren't swine. You dishonor me, a man who only repeated what the apostles of our LORD said:

"We ought to obey God rather than men. (Act 5:29 NKJ)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #706 on: October 04, 2010, 07:15:05 PM »
If you're going to convince us of anything, you'll have to do it on our terms, not yours. Many of us have already pointed out that we don't accept your base premises (sola scriptura), so we don't accept any of the nonsense you build atop them.

If you want to build a case against Orthodox Christianity, you'll have to do it using concepts we already accept. Otherwise you're babbling to make yourself feel superior, and quite frankly my dear, we don't give a...
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 07:16:02 PM by bogdan »

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #707 on: October 04, 2010, 08:31:01 PM »
More on the fruits of 2,000 years of Christian Orthodoxy. From a review by Fredrica Mathews Greene of the book:

Father Arseny: A Cloud of Witnesses (St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 2001)
translated by Vera Bouteneff

http://www.frederica.com/writings/father-arseny.html

.... the book opens with dawn in the sub-freezing gulag, as the feeble, aging priest struggles to light a fire for the barracks. Clergy were despised by everyone, even other prisoners; Christians were believed to be stupid. Yet in the course of this typical day Fr. Arseny endures beatings and abuse with patience, while caring for two sick prisoners and sharing with them his rations. One invalid is a criminal, and the other a deposed official who had signed Fr. Arseny’s own sentence. Through the course of succeeding chapters both become converts, and take the priest as their spiritual father.

The character of this kindly, long-suffering priest contrasts with the American expectation of what a successful Christian leader would be like: glib, brisk, upbeat, forceful. Fr. Arseny represents a different kind of Christian spirituality, one associated more with the Desert Fathers and early Christian spirituality.

Fr. Arseny differs in another way: he has contact with the supernatural. American Christian spokesmen live in an orderly, corporate sort of world, but Fr. Arseny is frequently shown at crux of miraculous events. In one incident, he and a young man are thrown into a punishment cell, a small metal cubicle exposed to -22 degree temperatures. The guards expected to find both dead when they unlocked the door 48 hours later. Instead, they found the prisoners rested and radiant, with a thick coat of frost on their clothing. As the young man described it later, when he collapsed in despair he saw the dark cell flooded with light, and Fr. Arseny praying in priestly garments. The young man, like most others who knew Fr. Arseny, was transformed by his encounter.

Evidently you cite his example as a proof of Orthodoxy. That is a failure of induction, he could very well be a superb Christian, and Orthodoxy still infested with error.

To illustrate, there are many excellent Christians who also speak in tongues, it does not follow the gift is for our day. A study of the gift shows it ended with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem...prior to that it was a sign to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. The dispensation ended with the Temple's destruction:

 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 KJV)

 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1Co 14:22 KJV)

The gift ceased long ago, as the NT was completed.



Likewise, the only sound test of Orthodoxy is the testimony of scripture. What is true, or false, is determined by what is consistent, or inconsistent, with scripture, God's Word of Truth.

Hence I want to see precise Orthodox exegesis of the 1 Cor 14:36, to know the fruit of Orthodoxy, if its good or bad.

What is good, is in accord with the Father, what is bad, is not:

 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Mat 7:20 NKJ)



You are correct. We do not ever know for sure what leads someone to such a level. However, as the review points out, Fr. Arseny is squally within the Orthodox mold. He is not the Western idea of a glib, stand up comedian preacher. Rather, we know him by his extraordinary compassion and the miracles that surrounded him. Surely, those are fruits of Christian practice... and he is one of ours.

Look to suffering Christianity if you want examples of "the real deal". I  suggest to you that the Orthodox have suffered under the Communist yoke in a manner very reminiscent of the Early Christians sent to the Arena. Anyone can confess Christ from his easy chair. But under extreme pressure the Orthodox held their faith, stared down the enemy and eventually triumphed. There is no finer example of Christians holding firm under extreme duress. Fr. Arseny's example  was repeated time after time.

He is truly an example of Christianity bearing fruit. Filling Mega-Churches with bands, dancers and joke tellers is not in the same league.

So I just want to convey to you that "bearing fruit"   in the Christian sense of the term, is our strongest suit. I know people who have converted after reading about the Orthodox martyrs of the 20th century.. The rest is commentary.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 08:33:46 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline PrincessMommy

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #708 on: October 04, 2010, 08:53:45 PM »
You are correct. We do not ever know for sure what leads someone to such a level. However, as the review points out, Fr. Arseny is squally within the Orthodox mold. He is not the Western idea of a glib, stand up comedian preacher. Rather, we know him by his extraordinary compassion and the miracles that surrounded him. Surely, those are fruits of Christian practice... and he is one of ours.

Look to suffering Christianity if you want examples of "the real deal". I  suggest to you that the Orthodox have suffered under the Communist yoke in a manner very reminiscent of the Early Christians sent to the Arena. Anyone can confess Christ from his easy chair. But under extreme pressure the Orthodox held their faith, stared down the enemy and eventually triumphed. There is no finer example of Christians holding firm under extreme duress. Fr. Arseny's example  was repeated time after time.

He is truly an example of Christianity bearing fruit. Filling Mega-Churches with bands, dancers and joke tellers is not in the same league.

So I just want to convey to you that "bearing fruit"   in the Christian sense of the term, is our strongest suit. I know people who have converted after reading about the Orthodox martyrs of the 20th century.. The rest is commentary.

I vote this for "post of the month".  Excellent job, Marc.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #709 on: October 04, 2010, 09:35:25 PM »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #710 on: October 04, 2010, 11:31:51 PM »
http://www.reformed.org/index.html (last accessed on October 4, 2010 @ 11:54 AM EDT)

Quote
Q. 158. By whom is the Word of God to be preached?

A. The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, and also duly approved and called to that office.

OK Alfred, prove to us that you are sufficiently gifted and duly approved and called to preach the Word of God (or Perssonism, which ever comes first)?

I don't claim to be "reformed" and they didn't send me, Christ did:

Well, the website is eerily similar to what you've spouted on this board since the first second you started posting here.  You deny that you're a Calvinist....

Plus, you haven't answered the question as to who or what made you sufficiently gifted and duly approved and called to preach the Word of God.  Prior to His Crucifixion, Christ stood silent before Pilate; however, Christ also created the World along with God and the Holy Spirit.  We're waiting to hear what authority, besides your self-serving assertion that Christ sent you to minister to us on OC.Net, granted you the authority to preach the Word of God.  If you know Scripture, you know that Christ Himself foresaw the rise of many false prophets, even ones who could deceive the elect (Matthew 24:4,5,11; NKJV).  So, how do we know that you're not a false prophet that Christ prophecised?

I can go into the downtown area of my city (or any large city anywhere in the world) and find hundreds of people who will tell me that Christ sent them to "preach" in the streets.  How are they different from you (or the corollary, how are you different from them).  You gave us websites on catechisms ... I responded with the website for "The Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics" ... was the above answer the best answer you can give me?

30 "He must increase, but I must decrease.
 31 "He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
 32 "And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony.
 33 "He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.
 34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
 35 "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
 36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 (John 3:30-1 NKJ)

You're the replacement for the Old Covenant?   ???

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2Co 4:6 NKJ)

I posted that link, and one to the Catholic catechism, to contrast the lack of an Orthodox link detailing the Orthodox faith in a systematic way.

You've had 2,000 years to get your act together, yet when I want to know what the Orthodox teaching is on 1 Cor 14:36, no one seems to know, not even you folks.

That is sad indeed.

1 Corinthians 14:34-36 addresses the role of women in the Church after verses 25 through 33 addresses those who claim the gift of tongues.  Verse 33 says that God is not the author of confusion; however, you are the author of confusion which is why we Orthodox Christians should simply declare Perssonism as anathema except that you've been abundantly kind in stating and restating your position on this board.

If you have the Orthodox Study Bible, you can turn to page 1569 where I've paraphrased the footnotes on the passages from 1 Corinthians 14.   ;)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 11:44:30 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #711 on: October 04, 2010, 11:45:43 PM »
you are the author of confusion which is why we Orthodox Christians should simply declare Perssonism as anathema

That would actually be quite exciting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B246z5bg4eo

(Isn't the Church wonderful? We even lay down anathemas with a flourish.  :laugh: )

But Alfred should be glad we're not Roman Catholic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-5B54wXgI4 ;)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 11:49:15 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #712 on: October 05, 2010, 12:49:14 AM »
I decided to Google where Orthodox Commentary might exist, and learned it doesn't, apart from the Ancient Christian Commentary I already have in my Logos library:

http://www.logos.com/

But I did find an Orthodox Catechism:

http://orthodoxcatechism.org/

AND was shocked to read this:

Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.
Underline mine.

14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,...

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues
, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 (Act 1:14-4 NKJ)

 9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God
; And we shall reign on the earth."
 (Rev 5:9-10 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 12:51:23 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #713 on: October 05, 2010, 12:51:33 AM »
http://www.reformed.org/index.html (last accessed on October 4, 2010 @ 11:54 AM EDT)

Quote
Q. 158. By whom is the Word of God to be preached?

A. The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, and also duly approved and called to that office.

OK Alfred, prove to us that you are sufficiently gifted and duly approved and called to preach the Word of God (or Perssonism, which ever comes first)?

I don't claim to be "reformed" and they didn't send me, Christ did:

30 "He must increase, but I must decrease.
 31 "He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
 32 "And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony.
 33 "He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.
 34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
 35 "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
 36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 (Joh 3:30-1 NKJ)

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2Co 4:6 NKJ)

I posted that link, and one to the Catholic catechism, to contrast the lack of an Orthodox link detailing the Orthodox faith in a systematic way.

You've had 2,000 years to get your act together, yet when I want to know what the Orthodox teaching is on 1 Cor 14:36, no one seems to know, not even you folks.

That is sad indeed.

What's the point? You wouldn't consider our catechism authoritative, nor would you consider our systematic theology valid.

You came into this house as a guest, and rather than being polite and respectful like most others are, you immediately began smashing things. (Indeed, you informed us that was the very reason you came.) Now you're sore that we won't tell you where the china cabinet is.
Indeed! Sniffing around like a truffle hunt, seeing where we keep the family pearls.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 12:53:49 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #714 on: October 05, 2010, 01:01:23 AM »
I decided to Google where Orthodox Commentary might exist, and learned it doesn't, apart from the Ancient Christian Commentary I already have in my Logos library:

http://www.logos.com/

You're not going to deceive us with a Bible Software company.  Care to see their mission statement?

Quote
We believe that Bible study should be at the heart of the Christian life. It's our privilege to equip pastors, students, missionaries, teachers, and the church at large with tools that make Bible study easier and more accessible. It's our responsibility to ensure that the investment in technology we can afford to make because we serve the western church pays dividends for the whole world.

Note that they don't mention God, Christ or the Holy Spirit but rather use the ambiguous term "church at large" with specific mention for the "western church."  In other words, to them, the Orthodox Church does not exist.  If you are an employee of Logos or if your pseudonym is G.L. Bray, we won't think any differently of you.   ;D  

But I did find an Orthodox Catechism:

http://orthodoxcatechism.org/

Why not visit the actual website where the above site mirrored?

AND was shocked to read this:

Why not read it here except that I'll quote the last five paragraphs:

Quote
The Priesthood is celebrated and is active here on earth. It has, however, a divine origin and works upon divine things. In essence, there is only one archpriest, Christ. The priesthood of Christ is, as it were, made present by all clergy, and especially by the bishop. The deacon and priest derive their priesthood from the bishop, just as the bishop derives his from Christ.

Priesthood does not exist when there is no canonical apostolic succession. Every priesthood that does not draw its source from the Apostles, and as a result from Christ, is not a true and genuine priesthood, but rather counterfeit. It is a false priesthood. It does not have grace and cannot give grace. It cannot sanctify and save. It is a pity and crime. False priests blaspheme the Holy Spirit and condemn their own selves and bring the naive to damnation.

Through ordination the bishop receives the offices of Christ: prophetic, royal, and priestly. With the prophetic office he teaches and correctly so the word of truth. With the royal office he administers and governs the Church. With the priestly office he celebrates the mysteries, sanctifies, and guides the faithful towards salvation.

Here we must repeat, as we said before, that the bishop has the fullness of the priesthood. This is why he is the only one who can celebrate all seven sacraments. The deacon and the priest derive their priesthood from the bishop and that is why they must be in canonical and continuous dependence on the bishop; otherwise their priestly works are not valid. The priest celebrates all the sacraments except ordination, while the deacon cannot celebrate any of them on his own. The deacon is the helper of the priest and bishop in the celebration of the sacraments and in the execution of the responsibilities and practices that originate from the Priesthood.

Christ, great Archpriest, sacrifice and sacrificer, only Messiah, true and only benefactor of man, we acknowledge that without the sacrament of the Priesthood, which celebrates and completes all the other sacraments, our salvation would not be possible. We thank You for this great gift of Yours. We thank You in the knowledge of our sins, with humility, and with true repentance. We Your clergy especially thank You, knowing our unworthiness. We ask You to open our souls and hearts to accept Your grace, to respect the priesthood, to respect the clergy, and to assist them in their salvific work. Do not withhold our purification. Lead us to our salvation. Your will be done. Glory be to Your Name, now and forever.

The Bishops are successors of the 12 Apostles whom Christ commanded, at His Ascension, to go out and preach the Gospel to the whole World in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  The Sad and tragic divisions of Christianity in 1054 and 1517 have severed the branches from the main tree; the tree that we call the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church aka the Orthodox Church.

So, Alfred, where do you fit in with the bolded text and taking into consideration what His Eminence, Metropolitan Soterios of Canada said above which I'll repeat below:?

Quote
False priests blaspheme the Holy Spirit and condemn their own selves and bring the naive to damnation.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 01:22:36 AM by SolEX01 »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #715 on: October 05, 2010, 01:05:24 AM »
I decided to Google where Orthodox Commentary might exist, and learned it doesn't, apart from the Ancient Christian Commentary I already have in my Logos library:

http://www.logos.com/

"Ever think of reading it?"-Captain Obvious.

But I did find an Orthodox Catechism:

http://orthodoxcatechism.org/

AND was shocked to read this:

Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.Underline mine.

Since you do not believe the Scriptures, I can see why Bible based theology will shock you:
Luke 6:12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles.

Quote
14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,...

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues
, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 (Act 1:14-4 NKJ)
And? Everyone is chrismated, but not all are ordained.

 
Quote
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God
; And we shall reign on the earth."
 (Rev 5:9-10 NKJ)
And?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 01:05:49 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #716 on: October 05, 2010, 01:43:58 AM »
I decided to Google where Orthodox Commentary might exist, and learned it doesn't, apart from the Ancient Christian Commentary I already have in my Logos library:

http://www.logos.com/

You're not going to deceive us with a Bible Software company.  Care to see their mission statement?

Quote
We believe that Bible study should be at the heart of the Christian life. It's our privilege to equip pastors, students, missionaries, teachers, and the church at large with tools that make Bible study easier and more accessible. It's our responsibility to ensure that the investment in technology we can afford to make because we serve the western church pays dividends for the whole world.

Note that they don't mention God, Christ or the Holy Spirit but rather use the ambiguous term "church at large" with specific mention for the "western church."  In other words, to them, the Orthodox Church does not exist.  If you are an employee of Logos or if your pseudonym is G.L. Bray, we won't think any differently of you.   ;D  

But I did find an Orthodox Catechism:

http://orthodoxcatechism.org/

Why not visit the actual website where the above site mirrored?

AND was shocked to read this:

Why not read it here except that I'll quote the last five paragraphs:

Quote
The Priesthood is celebrated and is active here on earth. It has, however, a divine origin and works upon divine things. In essence, there is only one archpriest, Christ. The priesthood of Christ is, as it were, made present by all clergy, and especially by the bishop. The deacon and priest derive their priesthood from the bishop, just as the bishop derives his from Christ.

Priesthood does not exist when there is no canonical apostolic succession. Every priesthood that does not draw its source from the Apostles, and as a result from Christ, is not a true and genuine priesthood, but rather counterfeit. It is a false priesthood. It does not have grace and cannot give grace. It cannot sanctify and save. It is a pity and crime. False priests blaspheme the Holy Spirit and condemn their own selves and bring the naive to damnation.

Through ordination the bishop receives the offices of Christ: prophetic, royal, and priestly. With the prophetic office he teaches and correctly so the word of truth. With the royal office he administers and governs the Church. With the priestly office he celebrates the mysteries, sanctifies, and guides the faithful towards salvation.

Here we must repeat, as we said before, that the bishop has the fullness of the priesthood. This is why he is the only one who can celebrate all seven sacraments. The deacon and the priest derive their priesthood from the bishop and that is why they must be in canonical and continuous dependence on the bishop; otherwise their priestly works are not valid. The priest celebrates all the sacraments except ordination, while the deacon cannot celebrate any of them on his own. The deacon is the helper of the priest and bishop in the celebration of the sacraments and in the execution of the responsibilities and practices that originate from the Priesthood.

Christ, great Archpriest, sacrifice and sacrificer, only Messiah, true and only benefactor of man, we acknowledge that without the sacrament of the Priesthood, which celebrates and completes all the other sacraments, our salvation would not be possible. We thank You for this great gift of Yours. We thank You in the knowledge of our sins, with humility, and with true repentance. We Your clergy especially thank You, knowing our unworthiness. We ask You to open our souls and hearts to accept Your grace, to respect the priesthood, to respect the clergy, and to assist them in their salvific work. Do not withhold our purification. Lead us to our salvation. Your will be done. Glory be to Your Name, now and forever.

The Bishops are successors of the 12 Apostles whom Christ commanded, at His Ascension, to go out and preach the Gospel to the whole World in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  The Sad and tragic divisions of Christianity in 1054 and 1517 have severed the branches from the main tree; the tree that we call the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church aka the Orthodox Church.

So, Alfred, where do you fit in with the bolded text and taking into consideration what His Eminence, Metropolitan Soterios of Canada said above which I'll repeat below:?

Quote
False priests blaspheme the Holy Spirit and condemn their own selves and bring the naive to damnation.

I see your point. They didn't mention Satan because he is their god, nor Obama because he is their antichrist, nor did they mention Washington DC, because its the seat of the beast, and they didn't mention you, because you are their false prophet.

I like this.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #717 on: October 05, 2010, 01:48:21 AM »
I decided to Google where Orthodox Commentary might exist, and learned it doesn't, apart from the Ancient Christian Commentary I already have in my Logos library:

http://www.logos.com/

"Ever think of reading it?"-Captain Obvious.

But I did find an Orthodox Catechism:

http://orthodoxcatechism.org/

AND was shocked to read this:

Holy Priesthood

This sacrament is also sent from God. It was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose and bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were the only ones to receive the priesthood. The Holy Spirit, which descended "as tongues of fire," did so only upon the Apostles on the day of Pentecost.Underline mine.

Since you do not believe the Scriptures, I can see why Bible based theology will shock you:
Luke 6:12 Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. 13 And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles.

Quote
14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
 15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said,...

Acts 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues
, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
 (Act 1:14-4 NKJ)
And? Everyone is chrismated, but not all are ordained.

 
Quote
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
 10 And have made us kings and priests to our God
; And we shall reign on the earth."
 (Rev 5:9-10 NKJ)
And?

The text says all 120 were there (not counting women of course), and all received the gifts of tongues = more than 12.

AND the idea only the 12 were priests, is clearly wrong, every believer is a king and priest.

We will  rise in the first resurrection:

 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20:6 NKJ)

The rest of the dead, who are written in the Lamb's book of life, rise up from hell into life, but aren't kings and priests as we who believe now, in this life:

 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:11-15 NKJ)

So every born again believer is a priest and king...not just the apostles.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 01:49:16 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #718 on: October 05, 2010, 02:38:44 AM »
 ???

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist


Warning: stories have mature content.

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #719 on: October 05, 2010, 07:26:10 AM »
Alfred, in many of your recent posts you have demonstrated your ability and willingness to look up commentaries and catechisms. When are you going to look up "solum/sola verbum dei"?

Unless you prove otherwise, I am forced to believe that solum verbum dei = solum verbum alfredi. Now do the math. dei = alfredi. Or, if you prefer the nominative case, Deus = Alfred. I know how to translate Deus into English. Do you?