Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 190290 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #630 on: October 03, 2010, 07:57:15 AM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.





« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 08:00:03 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #631 on: October 03, 2010, 08:45:55 AM »
While on the subject of "official Orthodox interpretation of scripture", where is it?

16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
 17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
 18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
(Mat 7:16-20 NKJ)

The Orthodox have had almost 2000 years to bear fruit, where is it?

Roman Catholics like to tout their Magisterium as the arbiter of truth, but history proves that claim false. The Protestant Bible has 39 books constituting the Old Testament, divided into 929 chapters or 23,214 verses containing 593,493 words; 27 books constituting the New Testament, divided into 260 chapters or 7,959 verses containing 181,253 words.  So there are 31,173 total verses in a Protestant's Bible, of that the Magisterium has only ruled on about 42 of them, or .1347% of Scripture.

Even in the 42, the Catholic Magisterium didn't define all the sense in a text, on the contrary, the intentionally left that undecided, ruling only that a particular sense MUST exist in the verse.

So the Catholic Magisterium only made "senses" out of scripture, not sense of it.

Are the Orthodox guilty of the same?----While insisting we follow their traditions, have they provided us with an infallible table of contents of that tradition, so we can know what it is?

If Orthodox Tradition is light in a dark place, then hiding it under a basket is antichrist:

16 "No one, when he has lit a lamp, covers it with a vessel or puts it under a bed, but sets it on a lampstand, that those who enter may see the light. (Luk 8:16 NKJ)

25 `And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.'
 26 "But his lord answered and said to him,`You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed.
 27 `So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest.
 28 `Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
 29 `For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.
 30 `And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
(Mat 25:25-30 NKJ)

So where is the "Official" exposition of scripture according to "Orthodox Tradition."

Some of you have argued this tradition is the "word of God," well then, the Word of God has been canonized...so what is the canon of your tradition, identify the books, the chapter and verse.


If the Orthodox cannot point me to the text of Orthodox tradition, so I can read it for myself, then all Orthodox claims to having "apostolic traditions" are a lie.

Then its obvious you are making stuff up, diminishing scripture whenever it suits you, making the word of God of no effect, according to the whims of your dark hearts.

I'm tired of going in circles discussing what the Orthodox do not believe...its time we took a bite of its real genuine fruit, not your evasions of the scripture.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 09:08:01 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

  • Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,077
  • don't even go there!
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #632 on: October 03, 2010, 11:32:23 AM »
Wow, it's hard to believe this discussion is still going on!  Guess some people don't have anyrhing else to do.

Me, I have a vegetable casserole to cook for our Parish Family Day Luncheon today.  Adding extra cheese - mmmm! :D
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline theistgal

  • Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,077
  • don't even go there!
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #633 on: October 03, 2010, 11:34:28 AM »
(p.s. I *could* go back and correct that "anyrhing" in my previous post - OR I could proclaim this "National Talk Like Scooby-Do Day" - whaddya think? :D )
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,812
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
  • Faith: GOAA
  • Jurisdiction: Antonis said I'm not Christian, so...
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #634 on: October 03, 2010, 01:44:21 PM »
You might as well.   :)

I'm not sure if Alfred knows the definition of any of the terms he uses. It seems as if he grabs onto big words because they sound as if they mean something-- and they do, but he may not know what that something is, or he'll change it, if it doesn't fit what he wants. He treats definitions as if they are plasma. I don't know how far anyone could expect to get, that way.  ???
My only weakness is, well, never mind

And you'll sleep, but they'll find you

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #635 on: October 03, 2010, 01:57:35 PM »
In Reply #595 I said "I believe you are misrepresenting the Orthodox. I demand to see an official statement"

A sample of the evasion  of  this simple request:

596 "Oh dear. Now Alfred has been cornered and we're going down the "I don't believe you, give me an official statement" trail again.First off, you are in no position to say what we do or do not believe."

597 "He's not misrepresenting this Orthodox Christian."

599 "Oooh, getting kinda demanding, aren't we?  The tactic of one who's used to getting his way but knows he's not going to get that here.  You're the one with a case to prove, so prove it.  Give us a good reason, one you haven't given us yet, why we should believe in sola scriptura."



I think you folks are lying to me, you don't have tradition that is apostolic.

You have nothing at all, just a willingness to nullify the word of God for the sake of whatever tickles your ears at this moment.


Until you produce the text of your "apostolic tradition" so I can read it for myself, I don't believe you have it.


I repeat, I think the Orthodox claim to have apostolic tradition is a lie,  a myth the Orthodox have pleasured themselves with so long, they think its a reality.


Stop evading this request, prove me wrong by citing chapter and verse of your claimed tradition that many here have said is "the word of God."



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #636 on: October 03, 2010, 02:13:19 PM »

Wrong. I never said any such thing. You have a real problem with mixing up particulars and universals.

It appears you did say precisely that:

Our Lord was speaking to Jews about Jewish traditions, not to Christians about Christian traditions.

If you don't mean this to be a principle of interpretation, then why cite it?

It's not a matter of interpretation for Orthodox Christians ... we believe that (and many, many more) as fact ... like the Sun rising in the East and setting in the West.

And you have yet to quote the church father who proposed it first, or are you making this up?

Cut the BS about asking us to quote which Church Father said what, when and why.   >:(

You illustrate my point perfectly...you are either deceived, or lying about "its not a matter of interpretation for Orthodox Christians."

It certainly is if you don't have relevant tradition, actual "Orthodox exegesis" of this text.

If the "fathers" didn't discuss it, and Orthodoxy hasn't provided its meaning, you are in the same boat as me, totally dependent upon your understanding of the verse.

Unlike me, I know I can't rely on religious authority, history proves such reliance absurd, antithetical to following God.


You protest my interpretation of the text, but never provide one that is "Orthodox."

You can't, because it doesn't exist. You just don't like mine. Its your personal preference, and that is too bad for the meaning of the text.



You are like the guy who accepts everything his friends say, but rejects anything said by outsiders, regardless the facts of the issue. You could care less what is true or false.


I call your bluff...produce the tradition you folks have alleged is the "word of God."

The word of God has been canonized, therefore you have a list of the canon to give me.

Give it up, or confess you lied, you don't have any "word of God" tradition apart from scripture at all, you have the myth of its existence the Orthodox swallowed hook line and sinker.

But I'm not Orthodox, I'm a primitive Orthodox, I still follow the Word of God  alone...so if you can't produce the "word of God" you claim to have, apart from the Bible, I'm not following your myth.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 02:16:48 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline jnorm888

  • Jnorm
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,517
  • Icon and Cross (international space station)
    • Ancient Christian Defender
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #637 on: October 03, 2010, 02:27:37 PM »
Alfred Persson,


You are not Primitive Orthodox. There is no such thing. Can you trace your leadership back to the first century? Can you trace your belief from generation to generation back to the first century?

What you are doing is playing make believe. It's obvious you don't read the fathers. I have already proven that on this thread.

The Church within the Roman Empire has done well, operated and survived just fine without a 100% unified New Testament Canon for centuries.

You really don't have a clue!


« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 02:32:06 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,812
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
  • Faith: GOAA
  • Jurisdiction: Antonis said I'm not Christian, so...
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #638 on: October 03, 2010, 02:37:20 PM »
Alfred- Links to copies of some texts by the Church Fathers have indeed been posted in this thread, more than once. Go back and look for them. Either you did not read, or you have forgotten, but in any case, no one else can do the reading for you.

You can't call anyone's 'bluff' if you don't know what the Orthodox church fathers thought in the first place. You cant claim if they were right or wrong if you don't know what they wrote. You can't say what their teaching is or isn't, if you don't know it.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 02:37:36 PM by biro »
My only weakness is, well, never mind

And you'll sleep, but they'll find you

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist

Offline genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,906
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #639 on: October 03, 2010, 03:16:51 PM »
solum verbum alfredi

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #640 on: October 03, 2010, 03:26:47 PM »
Alfred- Links to copies of some texts by the Church Fathers have indeed been posted in this thread, more than once. Go back and look for them. Either you did not read, or you have forgotten, but in any case, no one else can do the reading for you.

You can't call anyone's 'bluff' if you don't know what the Orthodox church fathers thought in the first place. You cant claim if they were right or wrong if you don't know what they wrote. You can't say what their teaching is or isn't, if you don't know it.

Didn't see them, don't know where they are...

As its been done more than once, and you know where it is, copy paste them here again.

You aren't ashamed of those links are you? So what are you waiting for?


I'm calling your bluff. You don't have tradition that is "the word of God"...

You have a gaggle of men supposing they might be right about the scripture, but who are so unsure, they often appeal to the general understanding in the universal church. They don't have scientific rules of interpretation, and they know it...they realize how inadequate they are...so the appeal to the universal church's understanding saying "Thus says the Catholic (universal) church."

Unlike them, I have scientific principles of interpretation, don't feel so inadequate I can't interpret scripture without the support of others. The text says what it says.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 03:37:09 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #641 on: October 03, 2010, 03:30:08 PM »
Alfred Persson,


You are not Primitive Orthodox. There is no such thing. Can you trace your leadership back to the first century? Can you trace your belief from generation to generation back to the first century?

What you are doing is playing make believe. It's obvious you don't read the fathers. I have already proven that on this thread.

The Church within the Roman Empire has done well, operated and survived just fine without a 100% unified New Testament Canon for centuries.

You really don't have a clue!

You can't have an opinion apart from your tradition.

I didn't see a chapter verse reference to your tradition ruling out my claim to be a primitive Orthodox.

I certainly am, and you are inconsistent with your tradition to deny it.

How do I know you are inconsistent with the Orthodox tradition folks here said is "the word of God," the same way you know I am inconsistent with it. Neither one of us has read it, so one of the positions must be correct.

Mine is.

You could prove yours is, by citing the precise words of the tradition you refer to, you know which tradition that is, the one you allude to when making scripture of no effect.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 03:31:46 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #642 on: October 03, 2010, 04:19:42 PM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 04:19:59 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline jnorm888

  • Jnorm
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,517
  • Icon and Cross (international space station)
    • Ancient Christian Defender
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #643 on: October 03, 2010, 04:31:12 PM »
Paul denied Corinthian inspired traditions were the Word of God, therefore neither are yours.

What kind of bizarre logic is this?
Indeed!  The Christian faith didn't originate FROM the Church; it originated from Christ and His Apostles and reached the world THROUGH the Church.

Bump!
Alfred Persson,


What did you find wrong with what Peter said up above?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 05:01:31 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #644 on: October 03, 2010, 04:33:24 PM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.

You won't let any interpretation be judged on its merits.

Rather all  of you, especially you, refer to a nebulus Orthodox tradition as being right, and I am clearly wrong,  because I am ___ ____ ___ fill in the blanks.

I tire of your evasion.

I cited a simple text and its interpretation you all reject. BUT none of you cite the Orthodox tradition compelling your rejection.

Rather it appears anything I say is "Perssonism", to be rejected because it me saying it.

That is dishonest. Either you heed scripture, or you do not.

Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.



You should be embarrassed. You should be able to look up any Bible Text, and see helpfully listed beneath it, everything the Orthodox believe about the text.

You've had 2000 years to do this.

What's the hold up? Bible got you confused?

10 For the LORD has poured out on you The spirit of deep sleep, And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.
 11 The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I cannot, for it is sealed."
 12 Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I am not literate."
 13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
 14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
 (Isa 29:10-14 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 04:39:48 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline jnorm888

  • Jnorm
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,517
  • Icon and Cross (international space station)
    • Ancient Christian Defender
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #645 on: October 03, 2010, 04:53:12 PM »


You can't have an opinion apart from your tradition.

Like you would know  ::)


Quote
I didn't see a chapter verse reference to your tradition ruling out my claim to be a primitive Orthodox.

Where have you been? When you first came here you started talking about the Nicene creed and early church fathers. When it was shown to you that you really don't agree with the Nicene and Constantinople 1 creed you tried to back track and say that you only agreed with the early fathers up to Nicea. When we showed you that you didn't even agree with the early church fathers, that is when you changed your argument again to one of only the early church as found in Scripture.

You changed your view multiple times on this board. You are not Primitive Orthodox, and you don't agree with Scripture either! Many others on here engaged your interpretation of Scripture.

When I showed you how the early fathers understood Foreknowledge as simply prescience in our Romans chapter 8 chat, you simply ignored them.

And so, you really don't care what church fathers had to say about a particular passage. You don't care for you will still stick with your view anyway.......regardless!
 
So stop pretending like you really care what a church father had to say about the issue! Stop pretending because we all know you really don't care anyway!

It doesn't matter to you if a church father said something!


Quote
I certainly am, and you are inconsistent with your tradition to deny it.

You don't even understand our tradition! You can only talk about inconsistency if you truly know what it is inconsistent with! Here you go again talking about stuff you don't know!



Quote
How do I know you are inconsistent with the Orthodox tradition folks here said is "the word of God," the same way you know I am inconsistent with it. Neither one of us has read it, so one of the positions must be correct.

I'm sorry but I didn't understand what you were trying to say here


Quote
Mine is.

Point to a time in which you thought your interpretation wasn't the right one? Are you some type of hermeneutic narcissist?


Quote
You could prove yours is, by citing the precise words of the tradition you refer to, you know which tradition that is, the one you allude to when making scripture of no effect.

I've already tried that with Romans chapter 8 and you ignored it. I think Peter is right in saying that we should only focus on the issue of Sola Scriptura with you.

Interpreting Scripture with you is nothing but a waste of time.





"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline jnorm888

  • Jnorm
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,517
  • Icon and Cross (international space station)
    • Ancient Christian Defender
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #646 on: October 03, 2010, 04:55:46 PM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.

You won't let any interpretation be judged on its merits.

Rather all  of you, especially you, refer to a nebulus Orthodox tradition as being right, and I am clearly wrong,  because I am ___ ____ ___ fill in the blanks.

I tire of your evasion.

I cited a simple text and its interpretation you all reject. BUT none of you cite the Orthodox tradition compelling your rejection.

Rather it appears anything I say is "Perssonism", to be rejected because it me saying it.

That is dishonest. Either you heed scripture, or you do not.

Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.



You should be embarrassed. You should be able to look up any Bible Text, and see helpfully listed beneath it, everything the Orthodox believe about the text.

You've had 2000 years to do this.

What's the hold up? Bible got you confused?

10 For the LORD has poured out on you The spirit of deep sleep, And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.
 11 The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I cannot, for it is sealed."
 12 Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I am not literate."
 13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
 14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
 (Isa 29:10-14 NKJ)


We don't heed Perssonism! You should know this by now!

Or should I say Primitive Perssonism!
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 04:57:20 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline jnorm888

  • Jnorm
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,517
  • Icon and Cross (international space station)
    • Ancient Christian Defender
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #647 on: October 03, 2010, 05:02:34 PM »
Paul denied Corinthian inspired traditions were the Word of God, therefore neither are yours.

What kind of bizarre logic is this?
Indeed!  The Christian faith didn't originate FROM the Church; it originated from Christ and His Apostles and reached the world THROUGH the Church.

Alfred Persson,


What did you find wrong with what Peter said up above?




Bump!
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #648 on: October 03, 2010, 05:29:02 PM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.

You won't let any interpretation be judged on its merits.

Rather all  of you, especially you, refer to a nebulus Orthodox tradition as being right, and I am clearly wrong,  because I am ___ ____ ___ fill in the blanks.

I tire of your evasion.

I cited a simple text and its interpretation you all reject. BUT none of you cite the Orthodox tradition compelling your rejection.

Rather it appears anything I say is "Perssonism", to be rejected because it me saying it.

That is dishonest. Either you heed scripture, or you do not.

Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.



You should be embarrassed. You should be able to look up any Bible Text, and see helpfully listed beneath it, everything the Orthodox believe about the text.

You've had 2000 years to do this.

What's the hold up? Bible got you confused?

10 For the LORD has poured out on you The spirit of deep sleep, And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.
 11 The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I cannot, for it is sealed."
 12 Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I am not literate."
 13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
 14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
 (Isa 29:10-14 NKJ)


We don't heed Perssonism! You should know this by now!

Or should I say Primitive Perssonism!

I don't believe you heed anything...

You claim to follow Orthodox tradition, but when I ask to see it, to verify your claims, you refuse.

Why.

You should be pleased I want to see Orthodox tradition...if indeed its light:

15 "Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
 16 "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
 (Mat 5:15-16 NKJ)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #649 on: October 03, 2010, 05:31:25 PM »
Protestants have dozens of excellent commentaries on the whole Bible one can purchase online or in any Christian book store.

Every Bible verse is fully exposited.

Yet the Orthodox, who had almost 2000 years to do the same, haven't done it once?

What's the matter, Bible got you confused?


10 For the LORD has poured out on you The spirit of deep sleep, And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.
 11 The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I cannot, for it is sealed."
 12 Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I am not literate."
 13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
 14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
 (Isa 29:10-14 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 05:32:58 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline jnorm888

  • Jnorm
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,517
  • Icon and Cross (international space station)
    • Ancient Christian Defender
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #650 on: October 03, 2010, 06:11:20 PM »
Protestants have dozens of excellent commentaries on the whole Bible one can purchase online or in any Christian book store.

Every Bible verse is fully exposited.

Yet the Orthodox, who had almost 2000 years to do the same, haven't done it once?

What's the matter, Bible got you confused?


10 For the LORD has poured out on you The spirit of deep sleep, And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.
 11 The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I cannot, for it is sealed."
 12 Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I am not literate."
 13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
 14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
 (Isa 29:10-14 NKJ)


Most of us are former protestants, and so we already know! However, you can't know a thing about the Orthodox and commentaries for we also already know that you don't read the church fathers. And so there is really no way for you to know!

Also, what you mentioned about protestantism is part of the problem! I will quote a blog friend to make this point:

http://www.orthodox-christianity.com/?page_id=53 (OrthodoxChristianFaith.....his journy)

Quote
Quote:
"In college I was one who asked a lot of questions (because I wanted to know) and became an “irritant” in a few professors eyes. Soon I developed a very strong “sola scriptura” attitude where if the ‘Bible did not say it, I would not believe it.’ That naturally meant rejecting reformed covenant theology, infant baptism etc. When I look back on this period I can see that I alone was the final arbitrator of truth because I would hold to what “I” thought the Bible said, and interpreted it thus. Although I held to a “bible only” mentality, my authority was actually that Writer/Book/Professor who could argue the best interpretation and convince me of that particular view point.

With my new mindset of “Bible only” I took the next logical step and became a ”baptist.“ This was very easy and natural because of my deeply held “bible only” mentality. However I retained Calvinism (well four points really—I never did embrace so called ‘Limited Atonement’ based on the testimony of the scriptures) because that was the only scope of knowledge that I had. I was now a ‘Calvinistic Baptist’ and served the Lord to the best of my knowledge, experience, and ability teaching Sunday School in a Calvinistic Baptist church for a few years !!!

I then attended a ‘baptist’ Seminary and earned my M.Div degree. In seminary I also asked a lot of questions. As it was in college, when it came to Church history there was a quick overview of a couple of major figures following the apostles, jumping to Augustine, and then reading Aquinas, but the majority of the time classes concentrated on “post reformation” figures; and the teachers naturally also taught from a Western “anti-Rome” biased viewpoint only. At seminary I really began doubting Calvinism “logically” and most importantly Calvinism did not square for me with the testimony of the ”whole of scripture“ – especially when studying God’s dealings with Israel in the Old Testament. I began to tire of “proof-texting” out of the Bible to prove an argument, when the context of the scripture being used as the proof-text had nothing to do in with the argument. Protestants have more interpretations of scripture than there are scriptures !! [hence the 42,000 protestant competing church groups that claim to use the bible only]


Did you see what I highlighted? Alot of us former protestants can attest to this, for a number of us had a similar experience. He also wrote:

Quote
Quote:
"I then looked at my book shelves of THOUSANDS of Protestant books and realized that for the most part they were all written from a biased WESTERN, ANTI-ROME, POST-REFORMATION/REVOLT worldview (especially that obnoxious James White). The Orthodox Church was never mentioned. I had wasted so many years reading these books which were mostly written by biased men with a theological agenda to push. Whoever could put forward “the best argument” could win you over. But these arguments always changed. But with the early Church fathers you simply had a description of what the “entire church” believed, testified to, and defended against heretics – a big difference from ‘protestantism.’

Did you see what I highlighted? A number of us who were once protestant saw some of the same issues!

And so why should we care if protestants have a whole bunch of commentaries to the scriptures? It sure didn't solve their disunity problem! Also, if you read Origen, then you would know that alot of gnostics and other heretics had piles upon piles of commentary as well.



 



« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 06:20:50 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #651 on: October 03, 2010, 06:18:23 PM »
Protestants have dozens of excellent commentaries on the whole Bible one can purchase online or in any Christian book store.

If one wants to waste the money.

Every Bible verse is fully exposited.

You mean each verse is opined on.

Yet the Orthodox, who had almost 2000 years to do the same, haven't done it once?

Commentaries? Many times over.  The ones by St. John Chrysostom on the NT, for instance, are readily available on line:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html

What's the matter, Bible got you confused?

No, but as St. Peter warns, the Protestants seem to be quite confused by it.


10 For the LORD has poured out on you The spirit of deep sleep, And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.
 11 The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I cannot, for it is sealed."
 12 Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I am not literate."
 13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
 14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
 (Isa 29:10-14 NKJ)

Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

2 Peter 3:15"our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen."
That cuts too close to the bone for Mr. Persson. I have cited that scripture, not my own words, several times for proof of what we say, and what we have said since the time of the Apostles. But since it doesn't fit his ideas, he rejects these words of Scritpure.

He prefers to take upon himself a mantle he has woven himself, calling it the mantle of St. John, but "No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was." (Heb. 5:4). St. John, the son of Aaron, confered his mantle the Son of God when he baptized Him, as "it [was] proper for [this] to do this to fulfill all righteousness" (Mat. 3:15)

John 3:"22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized. 24 For John had not yet been thrown into prison.
25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”
27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
4:1....the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples)"

Christ called His Apostles to wear this mantle and take this honor he placed upon them, (John 20:21) "So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”" (Acts 1:)all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen...4while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

The Apostles "sent for the presbyters of the Church" (Acts 20:17), to admonish them before their depature (I Peter )"12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance"  "I Peter5:1-2 The presbyters which are among you I exhort, who am also an presbyter, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, serving as bishops, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind."  (II Timothy 1:)"6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands 77For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind...(11:)13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us." (Acts 20:28) "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you bishops. Be shepherds of the Church of God, which He bought with His own blood...32And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified...35I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive" [a verse not in the Gospel, but presured by Tradition]. Titus 1:5For this cause [the Apostles] left [the bishops] in Crete,"-and all the earth-"that [they] should set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain presbyters in every city, as [the Apostles] had appointed [the bishops]: 6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7For a bishop must be blameless"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13210.msg461145/topicseen.html#msg461145
In fact, so great is the episcopacy, the presbyters of Acts 15, that St. Peter, introduding himself as "an [note, btw: "a," not "the"] Apostle of Jesus Christ," nonetheless identifies himself as a "fellow presbyter" when he invokes himself as a witness of Christ and a partaker of His glory, to exhort his fellow presbyters, whom he identifies as the bishops (5:1-2), and the Apostle John, the disciple whom Christ loved, doesn't give his autority to his second and third epistles as neither the Disciple nor Apostle, but as "the presbyter."

"He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." Luke 10:16  You cannot have the Church's book without the Church.

Of course, you have the free will to preach or accept another Gospel.

The Church I know, so Christ I know and Paul I know, but who are you? You shouldn't wave the veil of Moses while invoking the name of Christ like a matador.  You can get hurt.
So the mantle of St. John is extended into the omophorios of the local bishop of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.
But since it doesn't fit Mr. Persson's ideas of his self calling, he rejects these words of Scritpure, and twists away.

He is jealous that we know what is taught in Scripture, "stand[ing] fast and hold[ing] the Traditions which [we] were taught, whether by word or [the Apostles'] epistle...to which He called [us] by [their] Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thess. 2:14-15) via their Traditions are completely sure, and have a complete knowledge.  Via his self made, man made tradition he is completely confused, and doesn't have a clue. "he walks disorderly and not according to the Tradition which [we] received from [the Apostles]" II Thess. 3:6.  The Apostles heard correctly:"that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies." (II Thess. 3:11). And we, as true followers of the Apostles and the sheep of their successors the Orthodox bishops, follow the Apostle's admonission "brethren, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle,...walking disorderly....[not] stand[ing] fast and hold[ing] the Traditions which [were] taught, whether by word or epistle... note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

As St. James, the Apostle and Brother of God, first bishop and Patriarch of Jerusalem admonishes us in closing his witness "19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
As St. Jude the Apostle, the "brother of James," admonishes us "17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh."

But Mr. Persson will have to accept this Scripture to benefit from it, rather than rejecting God's good gifts offered by the hand of His Church, to receive the Word of God, and so he can heed what it says confident of its the truth, rather than his own destruction.
Only proves we cannot go far from the apostles, if we are to learn what they  believed.

Because what they received, what they taught, what they passed on, what we stand firm in, what raditions we hold which were taught by the Apostles, whether by word, or by letter (II Thessalonians 2:15), what we-remembering them in all things, receiving their praise-hold firm, what traditions, even as the Apostles delivered to us (I Corinthians 11:2), because THAT differs from what those who walketh disorderly millennia after, and not after the Tradition which he received of the Apostles-Or rather, such novelties differ from the 'Faith of the Apostles-because of that differnce we are to hide our eyes from the unbroken cloud of witness which surround the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, so we can don the veil of Moses and walk in the way of the Pharisees? So we can follow someone who not only has not seen the light of Christ, but refuses to behold the radience of God's glory and look in the face of Christ, the icon of the invisible God and the express image of His person, and see the Father? (John 14:9; 2Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3)?

No thank you.

Mat. 15:14  "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Or into hellfire, whose gates shall never, by the divine word of God the Word, prevail against the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.

2Cor. 4:4But even if our Gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, Who is the icon of God, should shine on them. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

So, for us who have received the Apostles, we withdraw, as the Apostles commanded, from those that walk disorderly, and from those who do not walk after the Tradition which were received of the Apostles. II Thessalonians 3:6.

Since Mr. Persson wears the veil of Moses, he is not able to see beyond it, not even able to see the identification in the OT of Samuel on this side of the veil between this world and the next. Yet he fancies himself a Dante, mapping out the next world as if he had insider information. But (Mat. 13:)"35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
      “ I will open My mouth in parables;
       I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world."
...All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,...(13:)9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” 10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you [i.e. His Church, taught by the successors of the Apostles, the bishops] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given...33 Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”

The leaven of Apostolic dogma has risen in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is all leavened and fills all the earth. But Mr Persson has not“take[n] heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees," (Mat. 16:6, 12) citing their Talmud here as elsewhere, and prefering their Masoretic Text, not heading the Apostles' warning (I Corin. 5:) that "6[his] glorying is not good...not know[ing] that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?" and that he should "7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that [he] may be a new lump." The Apostles are "indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit,"-having passed on the Spirit of prophecy in the laying on of their hands on the Orthodox Catholic bishops-"have already judged (as though [they] were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." "For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us" something the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church centers our year on but I fear Mr. Persson does not celebrate "8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." The invitation is open, but Mr. Persson chooses to reject Scripture and turn down the invitation. "8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is." Gal. 5.

29The Spirit told Philip [who, like the bishops, had the Apostles hand laid on him, Acts 6:5-6; II Timoty 1:6-7; Titus 1:5-6], "Go to that chariot and stay near it."

 30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

 31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?"

But Mr. Persson does not believe this Scripture.
 
He reads and does not believe what he reads, so he doesn't have a clue what the Bible says.

We read the Bible and believe what the Church which wrote, canonized and preserved the Bible says, and the Fathers who testified for the Church in explaining the Scripture, standng firm and holding fast to the Traditions taught by the Apostles, whether by word or letter (II Thess. 2:15), so we know what the Bible says.

With God all things are possible, but the man Alfred Persson kicks against the goads, trying to make it impossible with his man made tradition, making God's way difficult, holding fast to any crooked ways, putting every obstacle to God reigning in his heart as Sovereign...one of the many voices sent by those preaching another Gospel.

Paul we know, and Christ we know, but, as Marc and the rest of Christ's One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church ask "who are you again?"

But I am the fool.
But not Christ's.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,906
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #652 on: October 03, 2010, 06:40:35 PM »
Protestants have dozens of excellent commentaries on the whole Bible one can purchase online or in any Christian book store.

Every Bible verse is fully exposited.

So much for Solā Scripturā!

You told us that no Church Fathers agree with us. Again I ask, which ones do you consider authoritative? Which one(s) explain "solum (sola?) verbum dei"?

So far, all you've given us is solum verbum alfredi.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #653 on: October 03, 2010, 06:54:21 PM »
Alfred- Links to copies of some texts by the Church Fathers have indeed been posted in this thread, more than once. Go back and look for them. Either you did not read, or you have forgotten, but in any case, no one else can do the reading for you.

You can't call anyone's 'bluff' if you don't know what the Orthodox church fathers thought in the first place. You cant claim if they were right or wrong if you don't know what they wrote. You can't say what their teaching is or isn't, if you don't know it.

Didn't see them, don't know where they are...
I'm sure you don't.


As its been done more than once, and you know where it is, copy paste them here again.
We have done that.  And you give us this


You aren't ashamed of those links are you?
2 Timothy 1:6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God.

No Apostles hand has been any where near your head it seems.

So what are you waiting for?
The scales to fall off your eyes.

I'm calling your bluff. You don't have tradition that is "the word of God"...

Were it not for our Holy Tradition, you wouldn't know the Word of God. As the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church we stand fast and hold the Traditions which we were taught, whether by word or our Scripture, received of the Apostles upon which our Church is founded. II Thess. 2:15.

You have a gaggle of men supposing they might be right about the scripture, but who are so unsure, they often appeal to the general understanding in the universal church. They don't have scientific rules of interpretation, and they know it...they realize how inadequate they are...so the appeal to the universal church's understanding saying "Thus says the Catholic (universal) church."

I'm going to repost something long (yeah, I know, suprise) but may not have the time to comment more.  I originally argued this against Sola Scriptura for the only source of the Faith.  I'll adapt it to the OP.

An example of what happens when Sola Scriptura runs against Apostolic Tradition:
Joshua Joshua 22:10 And when they came to the region about the Jordan, that lies in the land of Canaan, the Reubenites and the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manas'seh built there an altar by the Jordan, an altar of great size. 11 And the people of Israel heard say, "Behold, the Reubenites and the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manas'seh have built an altar at the frontier of the land of Canaan, in the region about the Jordan, on the side that belongs to the people of Israel." 12 And when the people of Israel heard of it, the whole assembly of the people of Israel gathered at Shiloh, to make war against them. 13 Then the people of Israel sent to the Reubenites and the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manas'seh, in the land of Gilead, Phin'ehas the son of Elea'zar the priest, 14 and with him ten chiefs, one from each of the tribal families of Israel, every one of them the head of a family among the clans of Israel. 15 And they came to the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of Manas'seh, in the land of Gilead, and they said to them, 16 "Thus says the whole congregation of the LORD, 'What is this treachery which you have committed against the God of Israel in turning away this day from following the LORD, by building yourselves an altar this day in rebellion against the LORD? 17 Have we not had enough of the sin at Pe'or from which even yet we have not cleansed ourselves, and for which there came a plague upon the congregation of the LORD, 18 that you must turn away this day from following the LORD? And if you rebel against the LORD today he will be angry with the whole congregation of Israel tomorrow. 19 But now, if your land is unclean, pass over into the LORD's land where the LORD's tabernacle stands, and take for yourselves a possession among us; only do not rebel against the LORD, or make us as rebels by building yourselves an altar other than the altar of the LORD our God. 20 Did not Achan the son of Zerah break faith in the matter of the devoted things, and wrath fell upon all the congregation of Israel? And he did not perish alone for his iniquity.'"

21 Then the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of Manas'seh said in answer to the heads of the families of Israel, 22 "The Mighty One, God, the LORD! The Mighty One, God, the LORD! He knows; and let Israel itself know! If it was in rebellion or in breach of faith toward the LORD, spare us not today 23 for building an altar to turn away from following the LORD; or if we did so to offer burnt offerings or cereal offerings or peace offerings on it, may the LORD himself take vengeance. 24 Nay, but we did it from fear that in time to come your children might say to our children, 'What have you to do with the LORD, the God of Israel ? 25 For the LORD has made the Jordan a boundary between us and you, you Reubenites and Gadites; you have no portion in the LORD.' So your children might make our children cease to worship the LORD. 26 Therefore we said, 'Let us now build an altar, not for burnt offering, nor for sacrifice, 27 but to be a witness between us and you, and between the generations after us, that we do perform the service of the LORD in his presence with our burnt offerings and sacrifices and peace offerings; lest your children say to our children in time to come, "You have no portion in the LORD."' 28 And we thought, If this should be said to us or to our descendants in time to come, we should say, 'Behold the copy of the altar of the LORD, which our fathers made, not for burnt offerings, nor for sacrifice, but to be a witness between us and you.' 29 Far be it from us that we should rebel against the LORD, and turn away this day from following the LORD by building an altar for burnt offering, cereal offering, or sacrifice, other than the altar of the LORD our God that stands before his tabernacle!"

30 When Phin'ehas the priest and the chiefs of the congregation, the heads of the families of Israel who were with him, heard the words that the Reubenites and the Gadites and the Manas'sites spoke, it pleased them well. 31 And Phin'ehas the son of Elea'zar the priest said to the Reubenites and the Gadites and the Manas'sites, "Today we know that the LORD is in the midst of us, because you have not committed this treachery against the LORD; now you have saved the people of Israel from the hand of the LORD." 32 Then Phin'ehas the son of Elea'zar the priest, and the chiefs, returned from the Reubenites and the Gadites in the land of Gilead to the land of Canaan, to the people of Israel, and brought back word to them. 33 And the report pleased the people of Israel; and the people of Israel blessed God and spoke no more of making war against them, to destroy the land where the Reubenites and the Gadites were settled. 34 The Reubenites and the Gadites called the altar Witness; "For," said they, "it is a witness between us that the LORD is God."

Now, note the following:

The Sola Scriptura folks were quite correct: the Law given to Moses had restricted sacrifices to one altar before the one Tabernacle. Btw, the tribes living on the East of the Jordan was a deviation from what God had commanded, revealed in His Word, and to which the Prophet Moses objected (Numbers 32, especially verses 6-15). Sort of like the innovation of the monarchy (I Kingdoms/Samuel 8, esp. verses 6-7), but we go a Messiah out of that (I Chronicles 17). Yet it is those who add Tradition to the mix who save Israel that day, as the chiefs of the Assembly/Congregation (we would say "Church") of Israel admit.

However, the Sola Scriptura first accuse the Eastern tribes of rebelling against God's Word, setting something that they see in addition to, and hence in opposition to (in their mind) in order to supplant God's Word, and replacing the Word of God with the traditions of men. And their solution? Just stick to the text and cross over to us.

The Eastern tribes had the foresight to see that, people being people, and sin being sin, that the Books of Moses were not going to suffice to stop Israel from sin. Those on the West Bank would focus on the literal promises to Abraham (which said nothing of the East Bank) and would interpret it in a manner which suited their sense of sensibilities: the Promised Land should fit our idea of the Land of Canaan (sort of like the idea of eating Body and Blood). Acting on this, they would exclude the Easterners, leading them to sin.

So the solution? Set up an interpretation of the letter of the law that preserved an indisputable indication of its spirit. And this they did.

A Melkite priest gave the best one word definition of Chrsitianity: witness.

Now, the problem most Protestants have with Tradition is the idea that the Church which set it up has tried to suppliment, and hence oppose, in order to supplant, Scripture.

We do not believe in, say, the Real Presense because St. Ignatius of Antioch, whom the Aposles ordained themselves as successor of St. Peter in the place where the disciples were first called Christians, writes in c. 105:
Let no man deceive himself. Both the things which are in heaven, and the glorious angels, and rulers, both visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ, shall, in consequence, incur condemnation. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Let not [high] place puff any one up: for that which is worth all is faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred. But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from the prayer, because they will not confess that the Eucharist is the self same flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils. See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

we believe in the Real Presence because He said, "This is My Body," "This is My Blood." Rising, He appeared and was known to the Apostles in the breakding of the bread that first Pascha (Luke 24:13-36 NOT btw, in His opening of the scriptures, though that did make their heart burn). Those who continued steadfast in the Apostles' doctrines communed in the breaking of bread in the prayers of the DL every Sunday from the Resurrection until June 7, 2009 (Acts 2:42, 20:7), which we received, delievered to us by the Apostles from the Lord (I Cor. 11:23. btw. when these words were written, the Church had been gathering on the first day of the week to break bread (Acts 20:7) for over two decades).

Now, the Aposles weren't doing this because of the verses quoted. Rather the verses were written to record what the Apostles did, what they were doing, believing, teaching, whether by word or letter (I Thess. 2:15) so those who followed could stand fast and hold these traditions, and withdraw (I Thes. 3:6) from those who refused to walk according to the traditions which they delievered and which we received.

St. Ignatius stood fast and held that tradition, and did not neglect that gift that was given him by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the Apostles, guarding what was committed to him. (I Tim. 4:14, 6:20) St. Ignatius set in order bishops in every city as the Aposltes commanded, to hold fast the faithful word as it had been taught, by word or letter, to both exhort and convict by sound doctrine those of a different opinion (heresia) who contradicted, and refused to walk according to that tradition. (cf. Titus 1:5-9). As the letters show, strong in the grace of Christ Jesus, he was committing these traditions he heard by word from the Apostles to the Faithful to teach others. (2 Tim. 2:1-2), that the Catholic Church continue in breaking the bread, the communion of the self same Body of Christ (I Cor. 10:16).

We do not believe in the Real Presence because St. Ignatius says so: he received the same Faith we received, and he stands as a Witness that God has erected between the Apostles and us, as a sign post as to whether we walk according to the Tradition of the Apostles or not. "Lo! I am with you always (Greek: "all the days") even unto the end of the age." Those were His parting words. And so He has: rather than standing gazing, the Church has raised up witnessses to that same Faith, who stand as witnesses between us and the Apostles. We have not abandoned the Bible for the Fathers (and Mothers!). Rather surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, we are able to point to the Witness, like the Eastern Tribes to the altar on the Jordan, to show that we are right in our interpretation of Scripture, including the Words of Institution (themselves written in the Gospels to reflect Church practice). Every generation, we can document, from the Apostles to this day, those who, if they lived in our day, would come to OUR Church and commune with us (of course, closed communion is part of that Apostolic Tradition). Their Faith is our Faith, and that is the value of their words, not that they replace the Bible. Rather they preserve the full import of the Bible.

Tradition is giving our ancestors, our Fathers, the ones who passed down the Faith and copied and preserved the Bible, a vote.

Catechesis means "echo," and Christ's Word has roared throughout the generations through Apostolic Tradition.

As our priest says, if you come up with an interpretation of Scripture that no one else has, be cautious and ask yourself if you are wrong. If it contradicts what has gone before, YOU ARE DEFINITELY WRONG.

How to interpret Acts 8:31? The believers of sola scriptura cannot tell us. They have no one to guide them.

Unlike them, I have scientific principles of interpretation,


I Timothy 4:12 Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity. 13 Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14  . 15 Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all. 16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 5:22Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. 6:20 Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babblings and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge. 21 by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith.
Grace be with you. Amen.

don't feel so inadequate I can't interpret scripture without the support of others.
The Fathers, like the Apostles, set examples of humility, and not arrogance.

II Peter 1:19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.  12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption, 13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. 15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man’s voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

The text says what it says.

Indeed it does:
II Peter 3:our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

Acts 8:30 “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?”

But then, you do not believe the Holy Scritpures.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 07:01:05 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #654 on: October 03, 2010, 07:13:02 PM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.

You won't let any interpretation be judged on its merits.
Because your interpretations have shown time and time again such gross twisting of even the literal meaning of the biblical text that they don't even merit the time of day.

Rather all  of you, especially you, refer to a nebulus Orthodox tradition as being right, and I am clearly wrong,  because I am ___ ____ ___ fill in the blanks.
You must have me confused with others who have been posting on this thread, since I'm not one of those dismissing your rantings as "Perssonism".

I tire of your evasion.
What's there to evade? You haven't made one attack on Orthodox Tradition that shows that you actually know what you're talking about.

I cited a simple text and its interpretation you all reject. BUT none of you cite the Orthodox tradition compelling your rejection.
If the candle won't light, there's no need to put it out with a fire hose.

Rather it appears anything I say is "Perssonism", to be rejected because it me saying it.
I reject it for the egregious mutilation of the text that it is. Show me an interpretation of the Scriptures that is actually faithful to the text and that makes logical sense, and maybe I'll take you seriously.

That is dishonest. Either you heed scripture, or you do not.
Scripture we heed. Your interpretations of Scripture that bear no semblance to even the literal sense of the text and that violate the rules of basic logic at every turn... NAH!
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 07:14:09 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #655 on: October 03, 2010, 07:18:54 PM »
Alfred Persson,


You are not Primitive Orthodox. There is no such thing. Can you trace your leadership back to the first century? Can you trace your belief from generation to generation back to the first century?

What you are doing is playing make believe. It's obvious you don't read the fathers. I have already proven that on this thread.

The Church within the Roman Empire has done well, operated and survived just fine without a 100% unified New Testament Canon for centuries.

You really don't have a clue!

You can't have an opinion apart from your Ttradition.
well, duh. We receive from the Apostles. We don't make it up, like the Protestants, as we go along. Btw, fixed that for you.

I didn't see a chapter verse reference to your tradition ruling out my claim to be a primitive Orthodox.

What Apostle's hand has touched your head? Laying on of their hands has been quoted repeatedly.

I certainly am,


Orthodox you are not.
(my apologies to the Shona)

and you are inconsistent with your tradition to deny it.
You have so abundantly displayed your ignorance of our Orthodox Tradition, that no more time need be wasted on this assertion of yours.

How do I know you are inconsistent with the Orthodox tradition folks here said is "the word of God," the same way you know I am inconsistent with it. Neither one of us has read it, so one of the positions must be correct.
This assertion is too incoherent to get a coherent reply.

Mine is.
Yours is what?

You could prove yours is, by citing the precise words of the tradition you refer to, you know which tradition that is, the one you allude to when making scripture of no effect.

Since we are the ones who put Scripture into effect, your request is impossible to grant, because you do not believe the Scriptures.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 07:19:52 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #656 on: October 03, 2010, 07:23:39 PM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.

You won't let any interpretation be judged on its merits.
Because your interpretations have shown time and time again such gross twisting of even the literal meaning of the biblical text that they don't even merit the time of day.

Rather all  of you, especially you, refer to a nebulus Orthodox tradition as being right, and I am clearly wrong,  because I am ___ ____ ___ fill in the blanks.
You must have me confused with others who have been posting on this thread, since I'm not one of those dismissing your rantings as "Perssonism".

I tire of your evasion.
What's there to evade? You haven't made one attack on Orthodox Tradition that shows that you actually know what you're talking about.

I cited a simple text and its interpretation you all reject. BUT none of you cite the Orthodox tradition compelling your rejection.
If the candle won't light, there's no need to put it out with a fire hose.

Rather it appears anything I say is "Perssonism", to be rejected because it me saying it.
I reject it for the egregious mutilation of the text that it is. Show me an interpretation of the Scriptures that is actually faithful to the text and that makes logical sense, and maybe I'll take you seriously.

That is dishonest. Either you heed scripture, or you do not.
Scripture we heed. Your interpretations of Scripture that bear no semblance to even the literal sense of the text and that violate the rules of basic logic at every turn... NAH!

If I claimed to have extra biblical tradition that is the "word of God", it would be published and given out free of charge, if I could afford it.

You claim to have extra biblical tradition that is the Word of God, but refuse to share it with others.

I will even pay...state the price, I'll pay it.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,812
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
  • Faith: GOAA
  • Jurisdiction: Antonis said I'm not Christian, so...
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #657 on: October 03, 2010, 07:37:28 PM »
 ???

The Word of God is a Person.


John 1

 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 2The same was in the beginning with God.

 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

And you'll sleep, but they'll find you

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

London is drowning, and I live by the river

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist

Offline bogdan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #658 on: October 03, 2010, 07:42:40 PM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.

You won't let any interpretation be judged on its merits.
Because your interpretations have shown time and time again such gross twisting of even the literal meaning of the biblical text that they don't even merit the time of day.

Rather all  of you, especially you, refer to a nebulus Orthodox tradition as being right, and I am clearly wrong,  because I am ___ ____ ___ fill in the blanks.
You must have me confused with others who have been posting on this thread, since I'm not one of those dismissing your rantings as "Perssonism".

I tire of your evasion.
What's there to evade? You haven't made one attack on Orthodox Tradition that shows that you actually know what you're talking about.

I cited a simple text and its interpretation you all reject. BUT none of you cite the Orthodox tradition compelling your rejection.
If the candle won't light, there's no need to put it out with a fire hose.

Rather it appears anything I say is "Perssonism", to be rejected because it me saying it.
I reject it for the egregious mutilation of the text that it is. Show me an interpretation of the Scriptures that is actually faithful to the text and that makes logical sense, and maybe I'll take you seriously.

That is dishonest. Either you heed scripture, or you do not.
Scripture we heed. Your interpretations of Scripture that bear no semblance to even the literal sense of the text and that violate the rules of basic logic at every turn... NAH!

If I claimed to have extra biblical tradition that is the "word of God", it would be published and given out free of charge, if I could afford it.

You claim to have extra biblical tradition that is the Word of God, but refuse to share it with others.

I will even pay...state the price, I'll pay it.



Tradition is the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church, as was previously noted. The Holy Spirit has never been for sale (see Simon Magus), nor has the Holy Spirit ever given us a complete and comprehensive treatise on the exact nature of His own essence. Not that such a thing could ever possibly exist anyway.

You keep asking for books. That is not the Orthodox way. We don't become like God by filling our heads with knowledge. "Knowledge puffs up," as we have seen. If you want to learn about Holy Tradition, look up the nearest Orthodox Church. Give the priest a call sometime this week, and tell him you'd like to become a catechumen. That will get the ball rolling.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 08:03:02 PM by bogdan »

Offline Marc1152

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 14,838
  • Probiotic .. Antibiotic
  • Jurisdiction: Rocor
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #659 on: October 03, 2010, 07:55:14 PM »
The Orthodox have had almost 2000 years to bear fruit, where is it?


Hundreds of Saint that we know of, tens of thousands we don't.

Google on Martyrs of Russia

I heard a story about a small Parish in Russia not too long after the Revolution. The Bolsheviks barged in during the Litury and demanded it stop. When the Priest refused they said he would be killed if he did not stop. He would  not. When he had finished, they took him out and shot him.

They thought that would be the end of that Church.  However, the next week another Priest showed up and held the Liturgy. They killed him... The next week another Priest came. They killed him too. This went on for many weeks until the area was empty of clergy.

There are also many accounts of Priests and Monks and Nuns being put before firing squads but the bullets would have no effect. They would fire, the Priest would be knocked down but would keep getting up, again and again. Some soldiers, having seen enough, would throw down their guns and refuse to fire another time. Eventually the captain would have to go up to the Priest  and stab him to death.

Such are the fruits of Christian practice.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #660 on: October 03, 2010, 08:03:05 PM »
If I claimed to have extra biblical tradition that is the "word of God", it would be published and given out free of charge, if I could afford it.

You claim to have extra biblical tradition that is the Word of God, but refuse to share it with others.

I will even pay...state the price, I'll pay it.

20 But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.” Acts 8.

Peter said (II Peter 3:15) our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces. Mat. 7:6

But you do not believe the Scriptures.


Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,522
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #661 on: October 03, 2010, 08:07:30 PM »
While on the subject of "official Orthodox interpretation of scripture", where is it?

16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
 17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
 18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
(Mat 7:16-20 NKJ)

The Orthodox have had almost 2000 years to bear fruit, where is it?

You can start here and just pick any day of the year to find good fruit.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Tzimis

  • Site Supporter
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,084
  • If you die before you die, then you will not die
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #662 on: October 03, 2010, 08:12:25 PM »
My feeling is he doesn't want to join holy Orthodoxy. Instead he is trying to justify his position and give his church credibility. He already knows we claim to be the only true Church. By having one of us say that he and his church exists is good enough for him and probably 99.9% of those not in communion with Orthodoxy. In his mind he thinks he is correct and he can do it alone. I hope I'm wrong.

Offline Saint Iaint

  • This Poster Has Ignored Multiple Requests to Behave Better
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 624
  • The Truth Shall Be Reviled
    • Christ Conquers
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #663 on: October 03, 2010, 09:01:13 PM »
Alfred Persson,

One simple question for you...

Which came first - the Bible or the Church?

†IC XC†
†NI KA†
Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute...

Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

Offline Melodist

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,522
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #664 on: October 03, 2010, 09:38:33 PM »
My feeling is he doesn't want to join holy Orthodoxy. Instead he is trying to justify his position and give his church credibility. He already knows we claim to be the only true Church. By having one of us say that he and his church exists is good enough for him and probably 99.9% of those not in communion with Orthodoxy. In his mind he thinks he is correct and he can do it alone. I hope I'm wrong.

In his defense, he was very up front in expressing his reasons for being here.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #665 on: October 03, 2010, 09:41:04 PM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.

You won't let any interpretation be judged on its merits.
Because your interpretations have shown time and time again such gross twisting of even the literal meaning of the biblical text that they don't even merit the time of day.

Rather all  of you, especially you, refer to a nebulus Orthodox tradition as being right, and I am clearly wrong,  because I am ___ ____ ___ fill in the blanks.
You must have me confused with others who have been posting on this thread, since I'm not one of those dismissing your rantings as "Perssonism".

I tire of your evasion.
What's there to evade? You haven't made one attack on Orthodox Tradition that shows that you actually know what you're talking about.

I cited a simple text and its interpretation you all reject. BUT none of you cite the Orthodox tradition compelling your rejection.
If the candle won't light, there's no need to put it out with a fire hose.

Rather it appears anything I say is "Perssonism", to be rejected because it me saying it.
I reject it for the egregious mutilation of the text that it is. Show me an interpretation of the Scriptures that is actually faithful to the text and that makes logical sense, and maybe I'll take you seriously.

That is dishonest. Either you heed scripture, or you do not.
Scripture we heed. Your interpretations of Scripture that bear no semblance to even the literal sense of the text and that violate the rules of basic logic at every turn... NAH!

If I claimed to have extra biblical tradition that is the "word of God", it would be published and given out free of charge, if I could afford it.

You claim to have extra biblical tradition that is the Word of God, but refuse to share it with others.

I will even pay...state the price, I'll pay it.
But that never was the point of this thread. You come to this site to win us to your point of view.  It is therefore your point of view that is on trial here, not ours. We have no need to prove anything to you, since we are not preaching anything this audience has never heard; rather, you need to prove your new teaching to us.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 09:43:34 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #666 on: October 04, 2010, 12:14:10 AM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.

You won't let any interpretation be judged on its merits.
Because your interpretations have shown time and time again such gross twisting of even the literal meaning of the biblical text that they don't even merit the time of day.

Rather all  of you, especially you, refer to a nebulus Orthodox tradition as being right, and I am clearly wrong,  because I am ___ ____ ___ fill in the blanks.
You must have me confused with others who have been posting on this thread, since I'm not one of those dismissing your rantings as "Perssonism".

I tire of your evasion.
What's there to evade? You haven't made one attack on Orthodox Tradition that shows that you actually know what you're talking about.

I cited a simple text and its interpretation you all reject. BUT none of you cite the Orthodox tradition compelling your rejection.
If the candle won't light, there's no need to put it out with a fire hose.

Rather it appears anything I say is "Perssonism", to be rejected because it me saying it.
I reject it for the egregious mutilation of the text that it is. Show me an interpretation of the Scriptures that is actually faithful to the text and that makes logical sense, and maybe I'll take you seriously.

That is dishonest. Either you heed scripture, or you do not.
Scripture we heed. Your interpretations of Scripture that bear no semblance to even the literal sense of the text and that violate the rules of basic logic at every turn... NAH!

If I claimed to have extra biblical tradition that is the "word of God", it would be published and given out free of charge, if I could afford it.

You claim to have extra biblical tradition that is the Word of God, but refuse to share it with others.

I will even pay...state the price, I'll pay it.
But that never was the point of this thread. You come to this site to win us to your point of view.  It is therefore your point of view that is on trial here, not ours. We have no need to prove anything to you, since we are not preaching anything this audience has never heard; rather, you need to prove your new teaching to us.

It was your suggestion the Orthodox state clearly their view of the text, and I would respond.

And the genius of that struck me, like a diamond.

The efficiency...

I could quote what I found in the fathers, backing up my interpretation, but no one will discuss that.

You folks claimed your tradition is the Word of God, and that I am contradicting it, therefore it is very efficient you cite the precise Orthodox tradition I am contradicting, so I can respond.


Until I respond to what I am contradicting, I'm wasting everyone's time.


AS for your private interpretation Paul is speaking about the church in Corinth only, here is one father that wouldn't agree:


Empty Boxes That Once Stored Wealth. Chrysostom: Truly, the church was more like heaven in Paul’s time, because the Spirit governed everything and moved each one of the members in turn. But now it seems we have only the symbols of those gifts. We also have only two or three speaking in the service, but these are only a pale shadow of what prevailed then. The present church is like a woman who has fallen from her former, prosperous days and who retains only the outward signs of that prosperity, displaying the boxes and caskets in which she kept her wealth, but which are now empty. This is true not only in the matter of gifts but in life and virtue as well. Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians 36.7.2

Bray, G. L. (1999). 1-2 Corinthians. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture NT 7. (145). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.


« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 12:21:25 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,565
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #667 on: October 04, 2010, 01:30:16 AM »
It was your suggestion the Orthodox state clearly their view of the text, and I would respond.

And the genius of that struck me, like a diamond.

The efficiency...

I could quote what I found in the fathers, backing up my interpretation, but no one will discuss that.

You folks claimed your tradition is the Word of God, and that I am contradicting it, therefore it is very efficient you cite the precise Orthodox tradition I am contradicting, so I can respond.


Until I respond to what I am contradicting, I'm wasting everyone's time.


AS for your private interpretation Paul is speaking about the church in Corinth only, here is one father that wouldn't agree:


Empty Boxes That Once Stored Wealth. Chrysostom: Truly, the church was more like heaven in Paul’s time, because the Spirit governed everything and moved each one of the members in turn. But now it seems we have only the symbols of those gifts. We also have only two or three speaking in the service, but these are only a pale shadow of what prevailed then. The present church is like a woman who has fallen from her former, prosperous days and who retains only the outward signs of that prosperity, displaying the boxes and caskets in which she kept her wealth, but which are now empty. This is true not only in the matter of gifts but in life and virtue as well. Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians 36.7.2

Bray, G. L. (1999). 1-2 Corinthians. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture NT 7. (145). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.

You're trying to use a contributor to a "new" Dictionary of Biblical Theology to justify your own religion?

That's like my creating my own computer Operating System based on Microsoft Windows and calling it "SolEx01 7."  Microsoft would own me after winning a copyright suit; however, there is no consequence for people who rip off fancy words in a "theology dictionary" and call it their own theology.   ::)

You know Alfred, I can't find anything on G.L. Bray (pseudonym?) on the Internet.  Why not help us and point us to whom he/she is and where he/she is ... unless you are one in the same.   ???

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #668 on: October 04, 2010, 06:36:32 AM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.

You won't let any interpretation be judged on its merits.
Because your interpretations have shown time and time again such gross twisting of even the literal meaning of the biblical text that they don't even merit the time of day.

Rather all  of you, especially you, refer to a nebulus Orthodox tradition as being right, and I am clearly wrong,  because I am ___ ____ ___ fill in the blanks.
You must have me confused with others who have been posting on this thread, since I'm not one of those dismissing your rantings as "Perssonism".

I tire of your evasion.
What's there to evade? You haven't made one attack on Orthodox Tradition that shows that you actually know what you're talking about.

I cited a simple text and its interpretation you all reject. BUT none of you cite the Orthodox tradition compelling your rejection.
If the candle won't light, there's no need to put it out with a fire hose.

Rather it appears anything I say is "Perssonism", to be rejected because it me saying it.
I reject it for the egregious mutilation of the text that it is. Show me an interpretation of the Scriptures that is actually faithful to the text and that makes logical sense, and maybe I'll take you seriously.

That is dishonest. Either you heed scripture, or you do not.
Scripture we heed. Your interpretations of Scripture that bear no semblance to even the literal sense of the text and that violate the rules of basic logic at every turn... NAH!

If I claimed to have extra biblical tradition that is the "word of God", it would be published and given out free of charge, if I could afford it.

You claim to have extra biblical tradition that is the Word of God, but refuse to share it with others.

I will even pay...state the price, I'll pay it.
But that never was the point of this thread. You come to this site to win us to your point of view.  It is therefore your point of view that is on trial here, not ours. We have no need to prove anything to you, since we are not preaching anything this audience has never heard; rather, you need to prove your new teaching to us.

It was your suggestion the Orthodox state clearly their view of the text, and I would respond.

And the genius of that struck me, like a diamond.

The efficiency...

I could quote what I found in the fathers, backing up my interpretation, but no one will discuss that.

You folks claimed your tradition is the Word of God, and that I am contradicting it, therefore it is very efficient you cite the precise Orthodox tradition I am contradicting, so I can respond.
And we probably shouldn't have made such a claim--actually, we never claimed that anything or anyone is the Word of God save for Jesus Christ Himself--since arguing with your interpretations of Scripture point by point only sidetracked you from your real burden by giving you something to argue with. We bear no responsibility to prove anything to you, though some have taken that upon themselves irresponsibly by arguing their claims to counter yours. You are the one who has something to prove, since you are the one introducing a new teaching to your audience. We need to stop making our counter claims, and you need to stop engaging them, all so you can focus on your real task of persuading us to embrace your point of view. The only thing we should be doing is pressing you for proof. But then this is an Internet forum, where gently persuading others to follow my lead is like herding cats. :-\ Oh, well.

AS for your private interpretation Paul is speaking about the church in Corinth only, here is one father that wouldn't agree:
Still arguing with your interpretation of what I believe, I see. Just as you mutilate the text of the Scriptures, so you mutilate the text of what I've written on this thread by only arguing with half of it. I'd ask you to go back and read the whole of what I said about St. Paul's preaching to the Corinthian church, but your insatiable desire to prove to yourself that you've won this argument would only continue to blind you to all but what you want to see.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #669 on: October 04, 2010, 08:32:41 AM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.

You won't let any interpretation be judged on its merits.
Because your interpretations have shown time and time again such gross twisting of even the literal meaning of the biblical text that they don't even merit the time of day.

Rather all  of you, especially you, refer to a nebulus Orthodox tradition as being right, and I am clearly wrong,  because I am ___ ____ ___ fill in the blanks.
You must have me confused with others who have been posting on this thread, since I'm not one of those dismissing your rantings as "Perssonism".

I tire of your evasion.
What's there to evade? You haven't made one attack on Orthodox Tradition that shows that you actually know what you're talking about.

I cited a simple text and its interpretation you all reject. BUT none of you cite the Orthodox tradition compelling your rejection.
If the candle won't light, there's no need to put it out with a fire hose.

Rather it appears anything I say is "Perssonism", to be rejected because it me saying it.
I reject it for the egregious mutilation of the text that it is. Show me an interpretation of the Scriptures that is actually faithful to the text and that makes logical sense, and maybe I'll take you seriously.

That is dishonest. Either you heed scripture, or you do not.
Scripture we heed. Your interpretations of Scripture that bear no semblance to even the literal sense of the text and that violate the rules of basic logic at every turn... NAH!

If I claimed to have extra biblical tradition that is the "word of God", it would be published and given out free of charge, if I could afford it.

You claim to have extra biblical tradition that is the Word of God, but refuse to share it with others.

I will even pay...state the price, I'll pay it.
But that never was the point of this thread. You come to this site to win us to your point of view.  It is therefore your point of view that is on trial here, not ours. We have no need to prove anything to you, since we are not preaching anything this audience has never heard; rather, you need to prove your new teaching to us.

It was your suggestion the Orthodox state clearly their view of the text, and I would respond.

And the genius of that struck me, like a diamond.

The efficiency...

I could quote what I found in the fathers, backing up my interpretation, but no one will discuss that.

You folks claimed your tradition is the Word of God, and that I am contradicting it, therefore it is very efficient you cite the precise Orthodox tradition I am contradicting, so I can respond.
And we probably shouldn't have made such a claim--actually, we never claimed that anything or anyone is the Word of God save for Jesus Christ Himself--since arguing with your interpretations of Scripture point by point only sidetracked you from your real burden by giving you something to argue with. We bear no responsibility to prove anything to you, though some have taken that upon themselves irresponsibly by arguing their claims to counter yours. You are the one who has something to prove, since you are the one introducing a new teaching to your audience. We need to stop making our counter claims, and you need to stop engaging them, all so you can focus on your real task of persuading us to embrace your point of view. The only thing we should be doing is pressing you for proof. But then this is an Internet forum, where gently persuading others to follow my lead is like herding cats. :-\ Oh, well.

AS for your private interpretation Paul is speaking about the church in Corinth only, here is one father that wouldn't agree:
Still arguing with your interpretation of what I believe, I see. Just as you mutilate the text of the Scriptures, so you mutilate the text of what I've written on this thread by only arguing with half of it. I'd ask you to go back and read the whole of what I said about St. Paul's preaching to the Corinthian church, but your insatiable desire to prove to yourself that you've won this argument would only continue to blind you to all but what you want to see.

Your response illustrates the inefficiency of discussing Bible with you folks, I suspect all of you are terrified you will inadvertently say something "unorthodox" and be summarily dismissed from the "Orthodox religion."

Rather than free in Christ, you are are enslaved to a tradition that you cannot reveal to outsiders, under threat of penalty.

Would they crucify you if you revealed Orthodox tradition to me?

The inefficiency of treating anything you gents say is obvious, you won't prove what you say is Orthodox. For all i know, you are offering private interpretations designed to protect your tradition from contradiction by someone like myself, who can easily rebut error and heresy.

That may protect odd and peculiar traditions from the teaching of Christ and His apostles, but it does nothing to advance your purpose of having this site, to show Orthodoxy is true to God's revelation.

Your traditions are likely odd and peculiar, because apparently you all are ashamed of them. Rather than point me to the definitive statement of Orthodoxy, especially its exegesis of this text, you evade....endlessly make it about me.

Its not about me, its about your odd and peculiar traditions. If you folks don't defend them here, now, who will?

Official Orthodox exegesis of scripture either is too embarrassing to be revealed to me, who can easily rebut foolishness, OR

having had almost 2,000 years, you have failed to accomplish any exegesis at all on scripture...Which causes one to conclude something entirely different:
[/i]

10 For the LORD has poured out on you The spirit of deep sleep, And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.
 11 The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I cannot, for it is sealed."
 12 Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I am not literate."
 13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
 14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
 (Isa 29:10-14 NKJ)


14 "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:`Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;
 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
 (Mat 13:14-15 NKJ)



So which is it:
1)Orthodox exegesis too foolish to be publicly revealed to Alfred Persson, for then he will document its untrue according to the Holy Scriptures.
2)Orthodox exegesis has been beyond our intellectual capacity these almost 2000 years.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 08:50:53 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline genesisone

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,906
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antioch
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #670 on: October 04, 2010, 08:34:06 AM »
AS for your private interpretation Paul is speaking about the church in Corinth only, here is one father that wouldn't agree:
Empty Boxes That Once Stored Wealth. Chrysostom: Truly, the church was more like heaven in Paul’s time, because the Spirit governed everything and moved each one of the members in turn. But now it seems we have only the symbols of those gifts. We also have only two or three speaking in the service, but these are only a pale shadow of what prevailed then. The present church is like a woman who has fallen from her former, prosperous days and who retains only the outward signs of that prosperity, displaying the boxes and caskets in which she kept her wealth, but which are now empty. This is true not only in the matter of gifts but in life and virtue as well. Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians 36.7.2
Bray, G. L. (1999). 1-2 Corinthians. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture NT 7. (145). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.
Alfred, I will commend you for going to this commentary. There are some Orthodox Christians who are familiar with it and do use it. But please note that it does have its faults - not all ancient Christian authors are Orthodox. You also need to realize that you can't substitute a commentary for reading the Fathers any more than you can substitute a commentary for reading the Scriptures.

Let me suggest that you take some time to read the Fathers themselves for if you did, you would have read more than what G.L. Bray quoted:
Quote
What now can be more awful than these things? For in truth the Church was a heaven then, the Spirit governing all things, and moving each one of the rulers and making him inspired. But now we retain only the symbols of those gifts. For now also we speak two or three, and in turn, and when one is silent, another begins. But these are only signs and memorials of those things. Wherefore when we begin to speak, the people respond, “with thy Spirit” indicating that of old they thus used to speak, not of their own wisdom, but moved by the Spirit. But not so now: (I speak of mine own case so far.)  But the present Church is like a woman who hath fallen from her former prosperous days, and in many respects retains the symbols only of that ancient prosperity; displaying indeed the repositories and caskets of her golden ornaments, but bereft of her wealth: such an one doth the present Church resemble. And I say not this in respect of gifts: for it were nothing marvelous if it were this only: but in respect also of life and virtue.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxxvii.html
Notice the words of St. John Chrysostom that I have bolded. He has no problem referring to specific situations, just as the Apostle Paul did. Commentators like Bray edit texts according to their personal interpretation.

Alfred, it isn't right to get an idea into your head and then go around finding "proof texts" in Scripture or in the Fathers. It just doesn't work.

And no, we're not going to prove Orthodoxy by quoting any text. That can no more be done than quoting a text to prove that a mother loves her child, or that a sunset is beautiful. Can you do that? That's how you want to prove how to understand God and have a relationship with Him. It isn't working.

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #671 on: October 04, 2010, 09:02:38 AM »
AS for your private interpretation Paul is speaking about the church in Corinth only, here is one father that wouldn't agree:
Empty Boxes That Once Stored Wealth. Chrysostom: Truly, the church was more like heaven in Paul’s time, because the Spirit governed everything and moved each one of the members in turn. But now it seems we have only the symbols of those gifts. We also have only two or three speaking in the service, but these are only a pale shadow of what prevailed then. The present church is like a woman who has fallen from her former, prosperous days and who retains only the outward signs of that prosperity, displaying the boxes and caskets in which she kept her wealth, but which are now empty. This is true not only in the matter of gifts but in life and virtue as well. Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians 36.7.2
Bray, G. L. (1999). 1-2 Corinthians. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture NT 7. (145). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.
Alfred, I will commend you for going to this commentary. There are some Orthodox Christians who are familiar with it and do use it. But please note that it does have its faults - not all ancient Christian authors are Orthodox. You also need to realize that you can't substitute a commentary for reading the Fathers any more than you can substitute a commentary for reading the Scriptures.

Let me suggest that you take some time to read the Fathers themselves for if you did, you would have read more than what G.L. Bray quoted:
Quote
What now can be more awful than these things? For in truth the Church was a heaven then, the Spirit governing all things, and moving each one of the rulers and making him inspired. But now we retain only the symbols of those gifts. For now also we speak two or three, and in turn, and when one is silent, another begins. But these are only signs and memorials of those things. Wherefore when we begin to speak, the people respond, “with thy Spirit” indicating that of old they thus used to speak, not of their own wisdom, but moved by the Spirit. But not so now: (I speak of mine own case so far.)  But the present Church is like a woman who hath fallen from her former prosperous days, and in many respects retains the symbols only of that ancient prosperity; displaying indeed the repositories and caskets of her golden ornaments, but bereft of her wealth: such an one doth the present Church resemble. And I say not this in respect of gifts: for it were nothing marvelous if it were this only: but in respect also of life and virtue.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxxvii.html
Notice the words of St. John Chrysostom that I have bolded. He has no problem referring to specific situations, just as the Apostle Paul did. Commentators like Bray edit texts according to their personal interpretation.

Alfred, it isn't right to get an idea into your head and then go around finding "proof texts" in Scripture or in the Fathers. It just doesn't work.

And no, we're not going to prove Orthodoxy by quoting any text. That can no more be done than quoting a text to prove that a mother loves her child, or that a sunset is beautiful. Can you do that? That's how you want to prove how to understand God and have a relationship with Him. It isn't working.


The Fathers are hearsay, nothing more. The earliest fathers were not afforded opportunity for careful exegesis of scripture and given to making imprecise statements in the heat of the moment. Later fathers reflect their own beliefs, not necessarily the same as the apostles.

Scripture alone is oral testimony of what Christ and the apostles believed.

Sometimes the fathers agree with this, sometimes they ignorantly do not. They are snapshots in time revealing the departure from the teaching of the apostles, to their own traditions.

They made the fundamental error of assuming traditions were passed on, unchanged by the generation before. That never happens in history, to any tradition. It would be special pleading to insist, against all experience, that it happened to Christian tradition.

The apostles were so aware of the danger their tradition would be changed, they constantly exhorted it be delivered to faithful men...but alas, that only slowed the process of contamination.

God's solution was to prohibit the addition of any tradition to His words, but mankind has never obeyed God, so why would they in this:

 2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deu 4:2 NKJ)


Calling your tradition the "word of God" (as some of you do) is rebellion against God. He clearly forbade adding to His Holy Word, your tradition.


The only way one can prove or disprove Orthodoxy is by the scriptures, they are sufficient above all. That is what Christ and His apostles did, quote scripture to prove they were speaking according to the truth of God:

KJV  Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 (Act 17:11 KJV)



« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 09:13:04 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,350
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #672 on: October 04, 2010, 09:35:05 AM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.

You won't let any interpretation be judged on its merits.
Because your interpretations have shown time and time again such gross twisting of even the literal meaning of the biblical text that they don't even merit the time of day.

Rather all  of you, especially you, refer to a nebulus Orthodox tradition as being right, and I am clearly wrong,  because I am ___ ____ ___ fill in the blanks.
You must have me confused with others who have been posting on this thread, since I'm not one of those dismissing your rantings as "Perssonism".

I tire of your evasion.
What's there to evade? You haven't made one attack on Orthodox Tradition that shows that you actually know what you're talking about.

I cited a simple text and its interpretation you all reject. BUT none of you cite the Orthodox tradition compelling your rejection.
If the candle won't light, there's no need to put it out with a fire hose.

Rather it appears anything I say is "Perssonism", to be rejected because it me saying it.
I reject it for the egregious mutilation of the text that it is. Show me an interpretation of the Scriptures that is actually faithful to the text and that makes logical sense, and maybe I'll take you seriously.

That is dishonest. Either you heed scripture, or you do not.
Scripture we heed. Your interpretations of Scripture that bear no semblance to even the literal sense of the text and that violate the rules of basic logic at every turn... NAH!

If I claimed to have extra biblical tradition that is the "word of God", it would be published and given out free of charge, if I could afford it.

You claim to have extra biblical tradition that is the Word of God, but refuse to share it with others.

I will even pay...state the price, I'll pay it.
But that never was the point of this thread. You come to this site to win us to your point of view.  It is therefore your point of view that is on trial here, not ours. We have no need to prove anything to you, since we are not preaching anything this audience has never heard; rather, you need to prove your new teaching to us.

It was your suggestion the Orthodox state clearly their view of the text, and I would respond.

And the genius of that struck me, like a diamond.

The efficiency...

I could quote what I found in the fathers, backing up my interpretation, but no one will discuss that.

You folks claimed your tradition is the Word of God, and that I am contradicting it, therefore it is very efficient you cite the precise Orthodox tradition I am contradicting, so I can respond.
And we probably shouldn't have made such a claim--actually, we never claimed that anything or anyone is the Word of God save for Jesus Christ Himself--since arguing with your interpretations of Scripture point by point only sidetracked you from your real burden by giving you something to argue with. We bear no responsibility to prove anything to you, though some have taken that upon themselves irresponsibly by arguing their claims to counter yours. You are the one who has something to prove, since you are the one introducing a new teaching to your audience. We need to stop making our counter claims, and you need to stop engaging them, all so you can focus on your real task of persuading us to embrace your point of view. The only thing we should be doing is pressing you for proof. But then this is an Internet forum, where gently persuading others to follow my lead is like herding cats. :-\ Oh, well.

AS for your private interpretation Paul is speaking about the church in Corinth only, here is one father that wouldn't agree:
Still arguing with your interpretation of what I believe, I see. Just as you mutilate the text of the Scriptures, so you mutilate the text of what I've written on this thread by only arguing with half of it. I'd ask you to go back and read the whole of what I said about St. Paul's preaching to the Corinthian church, but your insatiable desire to prove to yourself that you've won this argument would only continue to blind you to all but what you want to see.

Your response illustrates the inefficiency of discussing Bible with you folks, I suspect all of you are terrified you will inadvertently say something "unorthodox" and be summarily dismissed from the "Orthodox religion."

Rather than free in Christ, you are are enslaved to a tradition that you cannot reveal to outsiders, under threat of penalty.

Would they crucify you if you revealed Orthodox tradition to me?

The inefficiency of treating anything you gents say is obvious, you won't prove what you say is Orthodox. For all i know, you are offering private interpretations designed to protect your tradition from contradiction by someone like myself, who can easily rebut error and heresy.

That may protect odd and peculiar traditions from the teaching of Christ and His apostles, but it does nothing to advance your purpose of having this site, to show Orthodoxy is true to God's revelation.

Your traditions are likely odd and peculiar, because apparently you all are ashamed of them. Rather than point me to the definitive statement of Orthodoxy, especially its exegesis of this text, you evade....endlessly make it about me.

Its not about me, its about your odd and peculiar traditions. If you folks don't defend them here, now, who will?

Official Orthodox exegesis of scripture either is too embarrassing to be revealed to me, who can easily rebut foolishness, OR

having had almost 2,000 years, you have failed to accomplish any exegesis at all on scripture...Which causes one to conclude something entirely different:
[/i]

10 For the LORD has poured out on you The spirit of deep sleep, And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.
 11 The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I cannot, for it is sealed."
 12 Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I am not literate."
 13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
 14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
 (Isa 29:10-14 NKJ)


14 "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:`Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;
 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
 (Mat 13:14-15 NKJ)



So which is it:
1)Orthodox exegesis too foolish to be publicly revealed to Alfred Persson, for then he will document its untrue according to the Holy Scriptures.
2)Orthodox exegesis has been beyond our intellectual capacity these almost 2000 years.
3) Orthodox exgesis has been publicaly revealed to Alfred Persson, but it is beyond his intellectual capacity and he is too foolish to receive it, because it documents that his eisogesis is untrue according to the Holy Scriptures which the Orthodox wrote, canoniized, and transmitted before the untaught and unstable Alfred Persson received them and found them hard to understand, and twisted them to his own destruction

Because Alfred Persson believes his own tradition and not the Holy Scriptures.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 09:36:09 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alfred Persson

  • Jesus is LORD, God the Eternal Son
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,205
  • Primitive Orthodox
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #673 on: October 04, 2010, 09:39:54 AM »
Paul asks two questions in confrontation with the Corinthians:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

According to the Orthodox "consensus of the fathers" or whatever tradition you interpret scripture by, what are these questions exactly.

What precisely did Paul ask?

The Orthodox exegesis of this text, not your "private interpretation."

Cite an Orthodox authority for the exegesis.
We're not going to prove anything to you until you first prove the strength of your tradition to us.

You won't let any interpretation be judged on its merits.
Because your interpretations have shown time and time again such gross twisting of even the literal meaning of the biblical text that they don't even merit the time of day.

Rather all  of you, especially you, refer to a nebulus Orthodox tradition as being right, and I am clearly wrong,  because I am ___ ____ ___ fill in the blanks.
You must have me confused with others who have been posting on this thread, since I'm not one of those dismissing your rantings as "Perssonism".

I tire of your evasion.
What's there to evade? You haven't made one attack on Orthodox Tradition that shows that you actually know what you're talking about.

I cited a simple text and its interpretation you all reject. BUT none of you cite the Orthodox tradition compelling your rejection.
If the candle won't light, there's no need to put it out with a fire hose.

Rather it appears anything I say is "Perssonism", to be rejected because it me saying it.
I reject it for the egregious mutilation of the text that it is. Show me an interpretation of the Scriptures that is actually faithful to the text and that makes logical sense, and maybe I'll take you seriously.

That is dishonest. Either you heed scripture, or you do not.
Scripture we heed. Your interpretations of Scripture that bear no semblance to even the literal sense of the text and that violate the rules of basic logic at every turn... NAH!

If I claimed to have extra biblical tradition that is the "word of God", it would be published and given out free of charge, if I could afford it.

You claim to have extra biblical tradition that is the Word of God, but refuse to share it with others.

I will even pay...state the price, I'll pay it.
But that never was the point of this thread. You come to this site to win us to your point of view.  It is therefore your point of view that is on trial here, not ours. We have no need to prove anything to you, since we are not preaching anything this audience has never heard; rather, you need to prove your new teaching to us.

It was your suggestion the Orthodox state clearly their view of the text, and I would respond.

And the genius of that struck me, like a diamond.

The efficiency...

I could quote what I found in the fathers, backing up my interpretation, but no one will discuss that.

You folks claimed your tradition is the Word of God, and that I am contradicting it, therefore it is very efficient you cite the precise Orthodox tradition I am contradicting, so I can respond.
And we probably shouldn't have made such a claim--actually, we never claimed that anything or anyone is the Word of God save for Jesus Christ Himself--since arguing with your interpretations of Scripture point by point only sidetracked you from your real burden by giving you something to argue with. We bear no responsibility to prove anything to you, though some have taken that upon themselves irresponsibly by arguing their claims to counter yours. You are the one who has something to prove, since you are the one introducing a new teaching to your audience. We need to stop making our counter claims, and you need to stop engaging them, all so you can focus on your real task of persuading us to embrace your point of view. The only thing we should be doing is pressing you for proof. But then this is an Internet forum, where gently persuading others to follow my lead is like herding cats. :-\ Oh, well.

AS for your private interpretation Paul is speaking about the church in Corinth only, here is one father that wouldn't agree:
Still arguing with your interpretation of what I believe, I see. Just as you mutilate the text of the Scriptures, so you mutilate the text of what I've written on this thread by only arguing with half of it. I'd ask you to go back and read the whole of what I said about St. Paul's preaching to the Corinthian church, but your insatiable desire to prove to yourself that you've won this argument would only continue to blind you to all but what you want to see.

Your response illustrates the inefficiency of discussing Bible with you folks, I suspect all of you are terrified you will inadvertently say something "unorthodox" and be summarily dismissed from the "Orthodox religion."

Rather than free in Christ, you are are enslaved to a tradition that you cannot reveal to outsiders, under threat of penalty.

Would they crucify you if you revealed Orthodox tradition to me?

The inefficiency of treating anything you gents say is obvious, you won't prove what you say is Orthodox. For all i know, you are offering private interpretations designed to protect your tradition from contradiction by someone like myself, who can easily rebut error and heresy.

That may protect odd and peculiar traditions from the teaching of Christ and His apostles, but it does nothing to advance your purpose of having this site, to show Orthodoxy is true to God's revelation.

Your traditions are likely odd and peculiar, because apparently you all are ashamed of them. Rather than point me to the definitive statement of Orthodoxy, especially its exegesis of this text, you evade....endlessly make it about me.

Its not about me, its about your odd and peculiar traditions. If you folks don't defend them here, now, who will?

Official Orthodox exegesis of scripture either is too embarrassing to be revealed to me, who can easily rebut foolishness, OR

having had almost 2,000 years, you have failed to accomplish any exegesis at all on scripture...Which causes one to conclude something entirely different:
[/i]

10 For the LORD has poured out on you The spirit of deep sleep, And has closed your eyes, namely, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, namely, the seers.
 11 The whole vision has become to you like the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one who is literate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I cannot, for it is sealed."
 12 Then the book is delivered to one who is illiterate, saying, "Read this, please." And he says, "I am not literate."
 13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
 14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
 (Isa 29:10-14 NKJ)


14 "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:`Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;
 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
 (Mat 13:14-15 NKJ)



So which is it:
1)Orthodox exegesis too foolish to be publicly revealed to Alfred Persson, for then he will document its untrue according to the Holy Scriptures.
2)Orthodox exegesis has been beyond our intellectual capacity these almost 2000 years.
3) Orthodox exgesis has been publicaly revealed to Alfred Persson, but it is beyond his intellectual capacity and he is too foolish to receive it, because it documents that his eisogesis is untrue according to the Holy Scriptures which the Orthodox wrote, canoniized, and transmitted before the untaught and unstable Alfred Persson received them and found them hard to understand, and twisted them to his own destruction

Because Alfred Persson believes his own tradition and not the Holy Scriptures.


Revealed to me? Where is it? Name of the book its written in.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,614
Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #674 on: October 04, 2010, 09:47:10 AM »
Alfred, do you think, or expect, that there is some giant book somewhere entitled "Tradition" that has compiled every answer to every question within its pages?

Because only an extreme rationalist, who treats religion like a formula instead of a religion, could have such an expectation.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 09:55:39 AM by bogdan »