Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 198335 times)

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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #585 on: September 27, 2010, 06:50:47 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.


Since your interpretation is the one that takes the meaning beyond what is expressly written, you must prove your view, as my interpretation is the default. That St Paul is writing about an error unique to the Corinthian Church is self-evident, since the letter is addressed to that specific Church and discusses errors within that specific Church.

How you extrapolate the problems of women speaking in church and prophecy to a condemnation of Holy Tradition is for you to prove. I'm not going to defend the Orthodox view because that's beside the point. Your stated intention was to convince us. So please, have at it.

Don't agree with Peter?

Your argument this applies only to the Corinthian church is disproved in context:

 22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together (1Co 14:22-23 NKJ)

So if this context excludes the Orthodox, they are not believers, or part of the "whole church".

I do agree with Peter. I suppose I broke the party line for a moment. So how about it? Sola scriptura?

Anyway, your exegesis doesn't make any sense at all. I have read what you posted several times and I don't even understand how it means what you say it means. Maybe you're speaking in tongues too, I don't know.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 06:52:27 PM by bogdan »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #586 on: September 27, 2010, 06:58:52 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.


Since your interpretation is the one that takes the meaning beyond what is expressly written, you must prove your view, as my interpretation is the default. That St Paul is writing about an error unique to the Corinthian Church is self-evident, since the letter is addressed to that specific Church and discusses errors within that specific Church.

How you extrapolate the problems of women speaking in church and prophecy to a condemnation of Holy Tradition is for you to prove. I'm not going to defend the Orthodox view because that's beside the point. Your stated intention was to convince us. So please, have at it.

Don't agree with Peter?

Your argument this applies only to the Corinthian church is disproved in context:

 22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together (1Co 14:22-23 NKJ)

So if this context excludes the Orthodox, they are not believers, or part of the "whole church".

I do agree with Peter. I suppose I broke the party line for a moment. So how about it? Sola scriptura?

Anyway, your exegesis doesn't make any sense at all. I have read what you posted several times and I don't even understand how it means what you say it means. Maybe you're speaking in tongues too, I don't know.
Does gibberish count as a tongue? Do those with glossolailia speak with forked tongue? 

Solo Afredo doesn't believe the Scriptures. Simple as that.
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Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #587 on: September 27, 2010, 07:04:42 PM »
John 20:30-31 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Emphasis mine.

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #588 on: September 27, 2010, 07:15:16 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.


Since your interpretation is the one that takes the meaning beyond what is expressly written, you must prove your view, as my interpretation is the default. That St Paul is writing about an error unique to the Corinthian Church is self-evident, since the letter is addressed to that specific Church and discusses errors within that specific Church.

How you extrapolate the problems of women speaking in church and prophecy to a condemnation of Holy Tradition is for you to prove. I'm not going to defend the Orthodox view because that's beside the point. Your stated intention was to convince us. So please, have at it.

Don't agree with Peter?

Your argument this applies only to the Corinthian church is disproved in context:

 22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together (1Co 14:22-23 NKJ)

So if this context excludes the Orthodox, they are not believers, or part of the "whole church".

I do agree with Peter. I suppose I broke the party line for a moment. So how about it? Sola scriptura?

Anyway, your exegesis doesn't make any sense at all. I have read what you posted several times and I don't even understand how it means what you say it means. Maybe you're speaking in tongues too, I don't know.

You must decide if your church is Christian, and if it is, then is it under apostolic authority or your own.

If the Orthodox church = Christian church seen in the NT, then you cannot say teaching that applies to them, doesn't apply to you.

You either are an apostolic church, or you aren't.

Choose
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #589 on: September 27, 2010, 07:19:34 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.


Since your interpretation is the one that takes the meaning beyond what is expressly written, you must prove your view, as my interpretation is the default. That St Paul is writing about an error unique to the Corinthian Church is self-evident, since the letter is addressed to that specific Church and discusses errors within that specific Church.

How you extrapolate the problems of women speaking in church and prophecy to a condemnation of Holy Tradition is for you to prove. I'm not going to defend the Orthodox view because that's beside the point. Your stated intention was to convince us. So please, have at it.

Don't agree with Peter?

Your argument this applies only to the Corinthian church is disproved in context:

 22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together (1Co 14:22-23 NKJ)
Sorry to not follow the advice I gave others, but I just can't tolerate this gross misuse of Scripture.  You split the last verse and only gave us part of its first phrase.  This cuts out a very important grammatical modifier that, coincidentally, only serves to support bogdan's case.

"Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, ..."  in one place.  in one place!

Once again, this passage shows St. Paul speaking merely to the church that meets in one place and not to the entire church as it is spread out throughout the world.

So if this context excludes the Orthodox, they are not believers, or part of the "whole church".
Again, the modifier "in one place".  This context focuses only on those who are members of the whole of the local church that meets in Corinth.  For those of us who aren't members of the local Corinthian church, how does this passage from 1 Corinthians even apply? ???
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 07:24:39 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #590 on: September 27, 2010, 07:34:12 PM »
1. Corinth was in Greece.

2. It still is.

3. If you go there, what churches do you see?

4.  ???

5. Point proven.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #591 on: September 27, 2010, 11:44:47 PM »
Alfred, you might want to check out this website where you can find some tours to Greece and actually visit the real Churches in the actual cities where the Apostle Paul ministered.  While proselytizing is illegal in Greece (if you're caught, you won't be prosecuted because Greece is a secular EU Member Nation), I bet the Greeks would like to hear you explain how their Churches got it all wrong and how your Church got it right.   ::)

Greek National Tourism Organization (in English)

As a matter of fact, plan your trip accordingly:

Quote
At the Prefecture of Kavala, on Paggaio mountain, 35 km away from Kavala near Nikisiani you will find the imposing Panaghia Ikosifoinissa monastery (tel. 25920 61566), which was built by Saint German during the 4th century A.D. Leaving Kavala and heading to Drama you will come across Aghios Silas monastery and shortly afterwards the Filippo archaeological site and the Baptistery of Saint Lydia, the first Christian to be baptized by Apostle Paul in Europe (49 A.D.). In Filippoi, you will also sea the impressive Basilicas and the octagonal church where Apostle Paul is believed to be imprisoned. In Palaiochori, in the impressive village of Vranokastro visitors will see the remains of Aghios Georgios Diasoritis monastery. The Aghios Georgios church in Kavala, where the shrine of the saint is kept, attracts lots of believers. Finally, the relics of Aghios Gregorios is kept in a golden larnax in the church of Nea Karvali village, which constitutes an important pole of attraction for pilgrims.

If you go, we look forward to hearing how your proselytizing fared at the place where the first Christian was baptized in Europe.   ;D

Edited for clarity
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 11:48:08 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #592 on: September 28, 2010, 11:43:02 AM »
Alfred, you might want to check out this website where you can find some tours to Greece and actually visit the real Churches in the actual cities where the Apostle Paul ministered.  While proselytizing is illegal in Greece (if you're caught, you won't be prosecuted because Greece is a secular EU Member Nation), I bet the Greeks would like to hear you explain how their Churches got it all wrong and how your Church got it right.   ::)

Greek National Tourism Organization (in English)

As a matter of fact, plan your trip accordingly:

Quote
At the Prefecture of Kavala, on Paggaio mountain, 35 km away from Kavala near Nikisiani you will find the imposing Panaghia Ikosifoinissa monastery (tel. 25920 61566), which was built by Saint German during the 4th century A.D. Leaving Kavala and heading to Drama you will come across Aghios Silas monastery and shortly afterwards the Filippo archaeological site and the Baptistery of Saint Lydia, the first Christian to be baptized by Apostle Paul in Europe (49 A.D.). In Filippoi, you will also sea the impressive Basilicas and the octagonal church where Apostle Paul is believed to be imprisoned. In Palaiochori, in the impressive village of Vranokastro visitors will see the remains of Aghios Georgios Diasoritis monastery. The Aghios Georgios church in Kavala, where the shrine of the saint is kept, attracts lots of believers. Finally, the relics of Aghios Gregorios is kept in a golden larnax in the church of Nea Karvali village, which constitutes an important pole of attraction for pilgrims.

If you go, we look forward to hearing how your proselytizing fared at the place where the first Christian was baptized in Europe.   ;D

Edited for clarity

I heard a story about a group of Protestant missionaries who went to Iraq. They came across a village and was told that the people there were Christian's. Intrigued, the asked them, "Who was it that converted your family". They answered: "It was Saint Paul"
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #593 on: September 28, 2010, 01:03:04 PM »


I heard a story about a group of Protestant missionaries who went to Iraq. They came across a village and was told that the people there were Christian's. Intrigued, the asked them, "Who was it that converted your family". They answered: "It was Saint Paul"
Awesome!!!
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #594 on: September 28, 2010, 01:19:28 PM »
I heard a story about a group of Protestant missionaries who went to Iraq. They came across a village and was told that the people there were Christian's. Intrigued, the asked them, "Who was it that converted your family". They answered: "It was Saint Paul"

After the Greeks reject Alfred's proselytizing and assuming that Alfred can legally enter Iraq (if proselytizing is legal in Iraq), his next mission would be to convince any remaining Iraqi Christians that His Church is superior than the one ministered to by the Apostle Paul.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #595 on: September 28, 2010, 06:46:51 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.


Since your interpretation is the one that takes the meaning beyond what is expressly written, you must prove your view, as my interpretation is the default. That St Paul is writing about an error unique to the Corinthian Church is self-evident, since the letter is addressed to that specific Church and discusses errors within that specific Church.

How you extrapolate the problems of women speaking in church and prophecy to a condemnation of Holy Tradition is for you to prove. I'm not going to defend the Orthodox view because that's beside the point. Your stated intention was to convince us. So please, have at it.

Don't agree with Peter?

Your argument this applies only to the Corinthian church is disproved in context:

 22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together (1Co 14:22-23 NKJ)
Sorry to not follow the advice I gave others, but I just can't tolerate this gross misuse of Scripture.  You split the last verse and only gave us part of its first phrase.  This cuts out a very important grammatical modifier that, coincidentally, only serves to support bogdan's case.

"Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, ..."  in one place.  in one place!

Once again, this passage shows St. Paul speaking merely to the church that meets in one place and not to the entire church as it is spread out throughout the world.

So if this context excludes the Orthodox, they are not believers, or part of the "whole church".
Again, the modifier "in one place".  This context focuses only on those who are members of the whole of the local church that meets in Corinth.  For those of us who aren't members of the local Corinthian church, how does this passage from 1 Corinthians even apply? ???


I believe you are misrepresenting the Orthodox.

I demand to see an official statement by the Orthodox church 1 Corinthians is irrelevant to Orthodoxy, that what is said therein does not apply to all the church, but only the Corinthians.

 2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (1Co 1:2 NKJ)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #596 on: September 28, 2010, 07:15:31 PM »
Oh dear. Now Alfred has been cornered and we're going down the "I don't believe you, give me an official statement" trail again.

First off, you are in no position to say what we do or do not believe. You have made perfectly obvious that you have no idea what we believe, so your protests about "misrepresentations" are falling on deaf ears. You don't care to suspend your arguments while someone explains it, so that doesn't make us very likely to respond to your misguided contrariness, does it?

Besides, on what grounds do you say Peter is misrepresenting Orthodoxy? Why don't you produce evidence, instead of resorting to throwing unsubstantiated charges around.

At any rate, this isn't about us proving our way is right, this is about you proving your way is right, as you stated in the beginning. So how about it?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 07:29:18 PM by bogdan »

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #597 on: September 28, 2010, 07:22:04 PM »

I believe you are misrepresenting the Orthodox.

I demand to see an official statement by the Orthodox church 1 Corinthians is irrelevant to Orthodoxy, that what is said therein does not apply to all the church, but only the Corinthians.

 2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (1Co 1:2 NKJ)
He's not misrepresenting this Orthodox Christian.

Once again, Alfred, you fail to read the context. You have added "This epistle is..." to the beginning of the verse. It doesn't seem to have occurred to you that verse two is attached to the first verse:  "Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ ... to the church of God which is at Corinth...."

Or would it help if I were to write my response in pseudo-Latin?

You have failed to show that "solum verbum dei" or however you choose to write it today, actually has a place in historic Christianity. Since you pointed out that your doctrine of Solā Scripturā derives directly from that phrase, you must be admitting that your doctrine itself does not have a place in historic Christianity.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #598 on: September 28, 2010, 07:47:18 PM »

I believe you are misrepresenting the Orthodox.

I demand to see an official statement by the Orthodox church 1 Corinthians is irrelevant to Orthodoxy, that what is said therein does not apply to all the church, but only the Corinthians.

 2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (1Co 1:2 NKJ)
He's not misrepresenting this Orthodox Christian.

Once again, Alfred, you fail to read the context. You have added "This epistle is..." to the beginning of the verse. It doesn't seem to have occurred to you that verse two is attached to the first verse:  "Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ ... to the church of God which is at Corinth...."

Or would it help if I were to write my response in pseudo-Latin?

You have failed to show that "solum verbum dei" or however you choose to write it today, actually has a place in historic Christianity. Since you pointed out that your doctrine of Solā Scripturā derives directly from that phrase, you must be admitting that your doctrine itself does not have a place in historic Christianity.
No I had to admit that Sola Scriptura does have a place in historic (albeit heretical) Christianity, but only after 1517.

Of course I Corinthians is relevant to Orthodoxy: we are the ones who put it in the canon. We are also the ones who have kepy and keep the Traditions just as the Apostles delivered them to us, as St. Paul says (I Cor. 11:2).

It is only because we have convinced yourself that revelation originated with you, and the Apostles reached over two millenium to hand it to you, that you don't know that. You reject our claims because you reject scripture.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 07:59:26 PM by ialmisry »
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #599 on: September 28, 2010, 08:30:44 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.


Since your interpretation is the one that takes the meaning beyond what is expressly written, you must prove your view, as my interpretation is the default. That St Paul is writing about an error unique to the Corinthian Church is self-evident, since the letter is addressed to that specific Church and discusses errors within that specific Church.

How you extrapolate the problems of women speaking in church and prophecy to a condemnation of Holy Tradition is for you to prove. I'm not going to defend the Orthodox view because that's beside the point. Your stated intention was to convince us. So please, have at it.

Don't agree with Peter?

Your argument this applies only to the Corinthian church is disproved in context:

 22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together (1Co 14:22-23 NKJ)
Sorry to not follow the advice I gave others, but I just can't tolerate this gross misuse of Scripture.  You split the last verse and only gave us part of its first phrase.  This cuts out a very important grammatical modifier that, coincidentally, only serves to support bogdan's case.

"Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, ..."  in one place.  in one place!

Once again, this passage shows St. Paul speaking merely to the church that meets in one place and not to the entire church as it is spread out throughout the world.

So if this context excludes the Orthodox, they are not believers, or part of the "whole church".
Again, the modifier "in one place".  This context focuses only on those who are members of the whole of the local church that meets in Corinth.  For those of us who aren't members of the local Corinthian church, how does this passage from 1 Corinthians even apply? ???


I believe you are misrepresenting the Orthodox.

I demand to see an official statement by the Orthodox church 1 Corinthians is irrelevant to Orthodoxy, that what is said therein does not apply to all the church, but only the Corinthians.
Oooh, getting kinda demanding, aren't we?  The tactic of one who's used to getting his way but knows he's not going to get that here.  You're the one with a case to prove, so prove it.  Give us a good reason, one you haven't given us yet, why we should believe in sola scriptura.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 08:34:49 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #600 on: September 28, 2010, 08:32:19 PM »
you must be admitting that your doctrine itself does not have a place in historic Christianity.
No I had to admit that Sola Scriptura does have a place in historic (albeit heretical) Christianity, but only after 1517.
Silly me for thinking that historic Christianity would begin with Christ and the Apostles :D. But I'm pretty sure Alfred doesn't think a whole lot of Martin Luther, either.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #601 on: September 29, 2010, 06:37:11 AM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.


Since your interpretation is the one that takes the meaning beyond what is expressly written, you must prove your view, as my interpretation is the default. That St Paul is writing about an error unique to the Corinthian Church is self-evident, since the letter is addressed to that specific Church and discusses errors within that specific Church.

How you extrapolate the problems of women speaking in church and prophecy to a condemnation of Holy Tradition is for you to prove. I'm not going to defend the Orthodox view because that's beside the point. Your stated intention was to convince us. So please, have at it.

Don't agree with Peter?

Your argument this applies only to the Corinthian church is disproved in context:

 22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together (1Co 14:22-23 NKJ)
Sorry to not follow the advice I gave others, but I just can't tolerate this gross misuse of Scripture.  You split the last verse and only gave us part of its first phrase.  This cuts out a very important grammatical modifier that, coincidentally, only serves to support bogdan's case.

"Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, ..."  in one place.  in one place!

Once again, this passage shows St. Paul speaking merely to the church that meets in one place and not to the entire church as it is spread out throughout the world.

So if this context excludes the Orthodox, they are not believers, or part of the "whole church".
Again, the modifier "in one place".  This context focuses only on those who are members of the whole of the local church that meets in Corinth.  For those of us who aren't members of the local Corinthian church, how does this passage from 1 Corinthians even apply? ???


I believe you are misrepresenting the Orthodox.

I demand to see an official statement by the Orthodox church 1 Corinthians is irrelevant to Orthodoxy, that what is said therein does not apply to all the church, but only the Corinthians.
Oooh, getting kinda demanding, aren't we?  The tactic of one who's used to getting his way but knows he's not going to get that here.  You're the one with a case to prove, so prove it.  Give us a good reason, one you haven't given us yet, why we should believe in sola scriptura.

I expected the Orthodox understanding of the text, not your own private opinion which I am certain would be condemned by the Orthodox.

I don't have to refute an interpretation you should be condemning as heretical...
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #602 on: September 29, 2010, 07:15:38 AM »

I expected the Orthodox understanding of the text, not your own private opinion which I am certain would be condemned by the Orthodox.

I don't have to refute an interpretation you should be condemning as heretical...
Alfred, from the tenor of your hundreds of posts, it's clear that you aren't the least bit interested in the Orthodox understanding of anything. And to hear you rail against "private opinion", well, that will be my laugh of the day!

But back to business: when are you going to explain your pseudo-Latin incantations? How do you expect to be credible unless you can explain your own terminology?

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #603 on: September 29, 2010, 08:22:57 AM »
I expected the Orthodox understanding of the text, not your own private opinion which I am certain would be condemned by the Orthodox.

On what grounds do you say this is a private opinion? Or is this a baseless accusation?

I don't have to refute an interpretation you should be condemning as heretical...

That statement proves you are doing this for the sake of argument and nothing more. You don't even want to get the Orthodox perspective for the sake of interest. It's intellectual masturbation. You're getting your jollies and feeling superior by stroking your knowledge of the Bible (even though it's completely erronous).
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 08:26:00 AM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #604 on: September 29, 2010, 08:26:21 AM »
I expected the Orthodox understanding of the text, not your own private opinion which I am certain would be condemned by the Orthodox.

On what grounds do you say this is a private opinion? Or is this a baseless accusation?

I don't have to refute an interpretation you should be condemning as heretical...

That statement proves you are doing this for the sake of argument and nothing more. You don't even want to get the Orthodox perspective for the sake of interest. It's intellectual masturbation, as I said earlier. You're getting your jollies and feeling superior by stroking your spiritual knowledge (even though your knowledge is erronous).

If an epistle is not "catholic" then its not canon, its sectarian.

To say Paul's epistle to the Corinthians applies only to them is obviously wrong, hence not one of you can find one church father, or Orthodox scholar repeating the heresy you  folks employ to avoid the obvious teaching of 14:36.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline czzham

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #605 on: September 29, 2010, 09:44:46 AM »
The removal from text of a single verse of Scripture is certainly a historic fallacy (and heresy) of the Protestant "believers." The most obvious quality of 1 Cor. 14:36 is its' contextuality, not its' individuality: removal of a single object "from the Whole" and causing it to appear to "stand alone" seems to be (IMO) on the same level as a certain pers(s)on taking a lone stance against the whole of Orthodoxy. This procedure seems to be a hallmark of rebellion: didn't one of the post-Byzantine Church Fathers remark that the Protestant schism against the Roman church was caused by their ignorance of Orthodoxy, thus not having the option of returning to the True Church? Thus, rebellion begets rebellion: from Orthodoxy into Catholicism, from Catholicism into Protestantism, from Protestantism into Evangelical & Pentecostal "churches"... the progression of spawn from the original schismatic rebellion here seems to lead from bad enough to worse. And, the children of rebellion still insist upon their rightness, while remaining embroiled in their separatist behaviors... hence, removal of any "verse" of Scripture from its original & rightful context.  :(
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #606 on: September 29, 2010, 10:55:06 AM »
I expected the Orthodox understanding of the text, not your own private opinion which I am certain would be condemned by the Orthodox.

On what grounds do you say this is a private opinion? Or is this a baseless accusation?

I don't have to refute an interpretation you should be condemning as heretical...

That statement proves you are doing this for the sake of argument and nothing more. You don't even want to get the Orthodox perspective for the sake of interest. It's intellectual masturbation, as I said earlier. You're getting your jollies and feeling superior by stroking your spiritual knowledge (even though your knowledge is erronous).

If an epistle is not "catholic" then its not canon, its sectarian.

Oh? By what authority do you say so?  Did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?

To say Paul's epistle to the Corinthians applies only to them is obviously wrong, hence not one of you can find one church father, or Orthodox scholar repeating the heresy you  folks employ to avoid the obvious teaching of 14:36.
St. John Chrysostom's
Quote
Ver. 36. “What? was it from you that the word of God went forth? or came it unto you alone?”

Thus he brings in the other Churches also as holding this law, both abating the disturbance by consideration of the novelty of the thing, and by the general voice making his saying acceptable. Wherefore also elsewhere he said, “Who shall put you in remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, even as I teach everywhere in all the Churches.” (1 Cor. iv. 17.) And again, “God is not a God of confusion, but of peace, as in all the Churches of the saints.” (c. xiv. 33.) And here, “What? was it from you that the word of God went forth? or came it unto you alone?” i.e., “neither first, nor alone are ye believers, but the whole world."  Which also writing to the Colossians he said, “even as it is bearing fruit and increasing in all the world,” (Col. i. 6.) speaking of the Gospel.
But he turns it also at another time to the encouragement of his hearers; as when he saith that theirs were the first fruits, and were manifest unto all. Thus, writing to the Thessalonians he said, “For from you hath sounded forth the word of God,” and, “in every place your faith to God-ward is gone forth.” (1 Thess. i. 8.) And again to the Romans, “Your faith is proclaimed throughout the whole world.” For both are apt to shame and stir up, as well the being commended of others, as that they have others partakers in their judgment. Wherefore also here he saith; “What? was it from you that the word of God went forth? or came it unto you only?” “For neither can ye say this,” saith he; “we were made teachers to the rest, and it cannot be right for us to learn of others;” nor, “the faith remained in this place only, and no precedents from other quarters ought to be received.” Seest thou by how many arguments he put them to shame? He introduced the law, he signified the shamefulness of the thing, he brought forward the other Churches.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxxviii.html
As we have repeatedly pointed out, you have no other Churches to bring forward. We have the ones founded by the Apostles. As St. Paul explained through St. John Chrysostom:

Quote
All what things? For hitherto his discourse was only concerning their not wearing long hair and not covering their heads; but, as I said, he is very bountiful in his praises, rendering them more forward. Wherefore he saith,

That ye remember me in all things, and hold fast the Traditions, even as I delivered them to you.” [I Cor. 11:2] It appears then that he used at that time to deliver many things also not in writing, which he shows too in many other places. But at that time he only delivered them, whereas now he adds an explanation of their reason: thus both rendering the one sort, the obedient, more steadfast, and pulling down the others’ pride, who oppose themselves. Further, he doth not say, “ye have obeyed, whilst others disobeyed,” but without exciting suspicion, intimates it by his mode of teaching in what follows,
But then since you reject Scripture, you will not hold fast the Traditions as the Apostles delievered them to us, thereby earning St. Paul's condemnation, not sharing in his praise of us.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxvii.html
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #607 on: September 29, 2010, 01:41:19 PM »
I expected the Orthodox understanding of the text, not your own private opinion which I am certain would be condemned by the Orthodox.

On what grounds do you say this is a private opinion? Or is this a baseless accusation?

I don't have to refute an interpretation you should be condemning as heretical...

That statement proves you are doing this for the sake of argument and nothing more. You don't even want to get the Orthodox perspective for the sake of interest. It's intellectual masturbation, as I said earlier. You're getting your jollies and feeling superior by stroking your spiritual knowledge (even though your knowledge is erronous).

If an epistle is not "catholic" then its not canon, its sectarian.

To say Paul's epistle to the Corinthians applies only to them is obviously wrong, hence not one of you can find one church father, or Orthodox scholar repeating the heresy you  folks employ to avoid the obvious teaching of 14:36.




LOL.

Are you serious? There are only seven catholic epistles: St James, two of St Peter, three of St John, and one of St Jude. All of St Paul's epistles are written to very specific churches.

I never said 1 Corinthians only applies to the Corinthians. I said his commands are about a specific situation. You have yet to explain how St Paul's condemnation of specific errors in a specific church suddenly constitute a condemnation of Holy Tradition.

Alfred, have you ever thought of running for Congress? You would be good at leading congressional hearings.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #608 on: September 29, 2010, 01:44:19 PM »
I expected the Orthodox understanding of the text, not your own private opinion which I am certain would be condemned by the Orthodox.

On what grounds do you say this is a private opinion? Or is this a baseless accusation?

I don't have to refute an interpretation you should be condemning as heretical...

That statement proves you are doing this for the sake of argument and nothing more. You don't even want to get the Orthodox perspective for the sake of interest. It's intellectual masturbation, as I said earlier. You're getting your jollies and feeling superior by stroking your spiritual knowledge (even though your knowledge is erronous).

If an epistle is not "catholic" then its not canon, its sectarian.

To say Paul's epistle to the Corinthians applies only to them is obviously wrong, hence not one of you can find one church father, or Orthodox scholar repeating the heresy you  folks employ to avoid the obvious teaching of 14:36.




LOL.

Are you serious? There are only seven catholic epistles: St James, two of St Peter, three of St John, and one of St Jude. All of St Paul's epistles are written to very specific churches.

I never said 1 Corinthians only applies to the Corinthians. I said his commands are about a specific situation. You have yet to explain how St Paul's condemnation of specific errors in a specific church suddenly constitute a condemnation of Holy Tradition.

Alfred, have you ever thought of running for Congress? You would be good at leading congressional hearings.
With Colbert?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #609 on: September 29, 2010, 01:46:40 PM »
The removal from text of a single verse of Scripture is certainly a historic fallacy (and heresy) of the Protestant "believers." The most obvious quality of 1 Cor. 14:36 is its' contextuality, not its' individuality: removal of a single object "from the Whole" and causing it to appear to "stand alone" seems to be (IMO) on the same level as a certain pers(s)on taking a lone stance against the whole of Orthodoxy. This procedure seems to be a hallmark of rebellion:

QFT

Chapter and verse notations, I think, are the single worst innovation when it comes to Bibles. Without them, Alfred would not have nearly such an easy time with his "theology", since it would be obvious he is taking it all out of context and presuming that each and every verse stands on its own. What rubbish.

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #610 on: September 29, 2010, 01:47:16 PM »
I expected the Orthodox understanding of the text, not your own private opinion which I am certain would be condemned by the Orthodox.

On what grounds do you say this is a private opinion? Or is this a baseless accusation?

I don't have to refute an interpretation you should be condemning as heretical...

That statement proves you are doing this for the sake of argument and nothing more. You don't even want to get the Orthodox perspective for the sake of interest. It's intellectual masturbation, as I said earlier. You're getting your jollies and feeling superior by stroking your spiritual knowledge (even though your knowledge is erronous).

If an epistle is not "catholic" then its not canon, its sectarian.

To say Paul's epistle to the Corinthians applies only to them is obviously wrong, hence not one of you can find one church father, or Orthodox scholar repeating the heresy you  folks employ to avoid the obvious teaching of 14:36.




LOL.

Are you serious? There are only seven catholic epistles: St James, two of St Peter, three of St John, and one of St Jude. All of St Paul's epistles are written to very specific churches.

I never said 1 Corinthians only applies to the Corinthians. I said his commands are about a specific situation. You have yet to explain how St Paul's condemnation of specific errors in a specific church suddenly constitute a condemnation of Holy Tradition.

Alfred, have you ever thought of running for Congress? You would be good at leading congressional hearings.
With Colbert?

LOL. Alfred could run circles around Colbert.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #611 on: September 29, 2010, 03:37:50 PM »
Sorry to not follow the advice I gave others, but I just can't tolerate this gross misuse of Scripture.  You split the last verse and only gave us part of its first phrase.  This cuts out a very important grammatical modifier that, coincidentally, only serves to support bogdan's case.

"Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, ..."  in one place.  in one place!

Once again, this passage shows St. Paul speaking merely to the church that meets in one place and not to the entire church as it is spread out throughout the world.

So if this context excludes the Orthodox, they are not believers, or part of the "whole church".
Again, the modifier "in one place".  This context focuses only on those who are members of the whole of the local church that meets in Corinth.  For those of us who aren't members of the local Corinthian church, how does this passage from 1 Corinthians even apply? ???


I believe you are misrepresenting the Orthodox.

I demand to see an official statement by the Orthodox church 1 Corinthians is irrelevant to Orthodoxy, that what is said therein does not apply to all the church, but only the Corinthians.
Oooh, getting kinda demanding, aren't we?  The tactic of one who's used to getting his way but knows he's not going to get that here.  You're the one with a case to prove, so prove it.  Give us a good reason, one you haven't given us yet, why we should believe in sola scriptura.

I expected the Orthodox understanding of the text, not your own private opinion which I am certain would be condemned by the Orthodox.

I don't have to refute an interpretation you should be condemning as heretical...
LOL! :laugh:  How can I expect you to read the Bible correctly when you can't even read me correctly?  I don't deny that St. Paul's Corinthian epistles certainly bear relevance to the whole Church and that we do well to read them, so before you assUme the ludicrous idea that I believe otherwise and totally disregard their presence in the canon of the New Testament, you would do well to grant that I'm representing my Orthodox faith truthfully and that you need to ask questions when something doesn't seem right to you.  I just affirm also that St. Paul wrote his Corinthian epistles to address certain heresies and schisms that had arisen in the local Corinthian church, heresies and schisms peculiar to Corinth that may not be an issue for the Church today--a proper exegesis of the text must reflect this understanding of historical context.  To see in St. Paul's rebuke of specific Corinthian practices a condemnation of Holy Tradition universally is therefore a ridiculous stretch of logic not supported by the text nor the context of the epistle.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #612 on: October 02, 2010, 09:22:42 AM »
Sorry to not follow the advice I gave others, but I just can't tolerate this gross misuse of Scripture.  You split the last verse and only gave us part of its first phrase.  This cuts out a very important grammatical modifier that, coincidentally, only serves to support bogdan's case.

"Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, ..."  in one place.  in one place!

Once again, this passage shows St. Paul speaking merely to the church that meets in one place and not to the entire church as it is spread out throughout the world.

So if this context excludes the Orthodox, they are not believers, or part of the "whole church".
Again, the modifier "in one place".  This context focuses only on those who are members of the whole of the local church that meets in Corinth.  For those of us who aren't members of the local Corinthian church, how does this passage from 1 Corinthians even apply? ???


I believe you are misrepresenting the Orthodox.

I demand to see an official statement by the Orthodox church 1 Corinthians is irrelevant to Orthodoxy, that what is said therein does not apply to all the church, but only the Corinthians.
Oooh, getting kinda demanding, aren't we?  The tactic of one who's used to getting his way but knows he's not going to get that here.  You're the one with a case to prove, so prove it.  Give us a good reason, one you haven't given us yet, why we should believe in sola scriptura.

I expected the Orthodox understanding of the text, not your own private opinion which I am certain would be condemned by the Orthodox.

I don't have to refute an interpretation you should be condemning as heretical...
LOL! :laugh:  How can I expect you to read the Bible correctly when you can't even read me correctly?  I don't deny that St. Paul's Corinthian epistles certainly bear relevance to the whole Church and that we do well to read them, so before you assUme the ludicrous idea that I believe otherwise and totally disregard their presence in the canon of the New Testament, you would do well to grant that I'm representing my Orthodox faith truthfully and that you need to ask questions when something doesn't seem right to you.  I just affirm also that St. Paul wrote his Corinthian epistles to address certain heresies and schisms that had arisen in the local Corinthian church, heresies and schisms peculiar to Corinth that may not be an issue for the Church today--a proper exegesis of the text must reflect this understanding of historical context.  To see in St. Paul's rebuke of specific Corinthian practices a condemnation of Holy Tradition universally is therefore a ridiculous stretch of logic not supported by the text nor the context of the epistle.

Your contradict yourself, either 1 Cor 14:23 "this passage shows St. Paul speaking merely to the church that meets in one place and not to the entire church as it is spread out throughout the world" OR "St. Paul's Corinthian epistles certainly bear relevance to the whole Church."

You contradict yourself because you are aware how unhistorical your peculiar interpretation is, unique only to you, for the purpose of subverting Paul's meaning.

However,  lest your sophistry (which is heretical) gain any credence, lets review it:

22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all.
 (1Co 14:22-24 NKJ)

You argue Paul's teaching about tongues applies only to Corinth, but that isn't what Paul said, he is illustrating a point, with an "IF" proposition.

If all the church came together in one place therefore does not mean "what I am now saying applies only to you Corinthians.

Your heretical interpretation is evil and wicked sophistry meant to avoid the quite clear demarcation Paul makes between the "Word of God" and "the word of men," which is what church traditions are.

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
 14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear Me, everyone, and understand:
 15 "There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
 16 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"
 (Mar 7:13-16 NKJ)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #613 on: October 02, 2010, 10:15:17 AM »
13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."

Our Lord was speaking to Jews about Jewish traditions, not to Christians about Christian traditions. The two are vastly different, yet so many Protestants use Christ's words against the Spirit-filled activities of His own Body.

Speaking of subverting the meaning of scripture and people being out of their mind...
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 10:16:35 AM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #614 on: October 02, 2010, 11:20:23 AM »
13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."

Our Lord was speaking to Jews about Jewish traditions, not to Christians about Christian traditions. The two are vastly different, yet so many Protestants use Christ's words against the Spirit-filled activities of His own Body.

Speaking of subverting the meaning of scripture and people being out of their mind...

So that's how you diminish the Word of God, make it apply others, not yourselves.

But that "hermeneutic" would render everything Christ said as "applicable only to the Jews of Jesus' generation," no one else.

Then when Christ says:

NKJ  Mark 1:17 Then Jesus said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men."
 (Mar 1:17 NKJ)

That only applies to the disciple he was speaking to.

Or when it is written:

NKJ  Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
 (Luk 13:3 NKJ)

That too only applies to the Jews Christ was speaking to.

So when Christ says:

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
 20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
 (Mat 28:19-20 NKJ)

That also only applied to the Jews Christ was speaking to, and Jesus is NOT with you at all.

Right?



I'm detecting a pattern, "whenever Scripture contradicts the Orthodox, then it applies to someone else."

Where in the Orthodox church fathers is that principle stated...whither the consensus of the fathers? Where has even one of the fathers stated this ruling hermeneutic of "Orthodoxy"?

If the Orthodox don't believe this principle, why are YOU teaching it? For what purpose?

If not in service to Christ, then in service to whom?

« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 11:46:37 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #615 on: October 02, 2010, 12:15:48 PM »
Right?

Wrong. I never said any such thing. You have a real problem with mixing up particulars and universals.

I'm detecting a pattern, "whenever Scripture contradicts the Orthodox, then it applies to someone else."

No, the pattern you should detect is that Perssonism's [mis]interpretation of Scripture is different from the actual meaning, which is preserved in the teaching of the Orthodox Church.

The very same could be said about you: "Whenever Scripture contradicts Alfred Persson, it means something different, and it took 1500 years for people to realize it."

You see, both ways are interpretations (we covered this a long time ago). Our interpretation has been preserved and passed down from the Apostles, yours was made up by yourself after reading modern authors.

Where in the Orthodox church fathers is that principle stated...whither the consensus of the fathers? Where has even one of the fathers stated this ruling hermeneutic of "Orthodoxy"?

I never stated any such principle. Stop putting words in people's mouths, it's getting old.

And why would you care if the Fathers did have such a principle? You wouldn't, because you have no regard for their authority. So this is a pointless question. More intellectual masturbation and pointless arguing for the sake of arguing.

If the Orthodox don't believe this principle, why are YOU teaching it? For what purpose?

I never stated any such principle. Stop putting words in people's mouths, it's getting old.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 12:18:18 PM by bogdan »

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #616 on: October 02, 2010, 01:08:14 PM »
How can someone like Alfred, who posits 'personal' salvation and interpretation of the Scriptures, find someone else heretical? If all interpretation is individual, where's the thing that he's defending in the first place? And if interpretation is not individual, who writes the recipe of his soup?

I can hardly think that Jesus told the Apostles to go and teach all that He commanded, just so that someone could take that teaching and make of it what they willed.  ???

Does Alfred know what the early Church considered to be heretical? It doesn't seem that he's read much on the Church Fathers themselves. It could only help him if he knew about the Apostles, and the churches that they founded, how the churches grew over the years, and how different heretical movements came along and were rejected. He's even said as much that he doesn't know why the Church is called Orthodox. (So why does he want it in his forum byline?)  ???

Here are some things that might help him.


"Paradise or Garden of the Holy Fathers" - St. Athanasius

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/athanasius/paradise1.html  (Part 1)

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/athanasius/paradise2.html (Part 2)


"Apostolic Fathers" by Kirsopp Lake

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/lake/fathers2.html


A number of selections by St. John Chrysostom

http://www.ccel.org/search/books/Chrysostom


St. John of Damascus

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/damascus/icons.html


These are just some places to start. They are free to read.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #617 on: October 02, 2010, 01:28:18 PM »

Wrong. I never said any such thing. You have a real problem with mixing up particulars and universals.

It appears you did say precisely that:

Our Lord was speaking to Jews about Jewish traditions, not to Christians about Christian traditions.

If you don't mean this to be a principle of interpretation, then why cite it?

And you have yet to quote the church father who proposed it first, or are you making this up?


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #618 on: October 02, 2010, 01:37:18 PM »

Wrong. I never said any such thing. You have a real problem with mixing up particulars and universals.

It appears you did say precisely that:

Our Lord was speaking to Jews about Jewish traditions, not to Christians about Christian traditions.

If you don't mean this to be a principle of interpretation, then why cite it?

And you have yet to quote the church father who proposed it first, or are you making this up?




Why? Are you interested in joining the Orthodox Church too?

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #619 on: October 02, 2010, 01:47:19 PM »
And while you're on the subject of who said what, you said,
sola scriptura = solum verbum dei

(in some posts you wrote "sola verbum dei")

You have yet to quote the church father who proposed "sola/solum verbum dei" first, or are you making this up?

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #620 on: October 02, 2010, 01:49:37 PM »

Wrong. I never said any such thing. You have a real problem with mixing up particulars and universals.

It appears you did say precisely that:

Our Lord was speaking to Jews about Jewish traditions, not to Christians about Christian traditions.

If you don't mean this to be a principle of interpretation, then why cite it?

It's not a matter of interpretation for Orthodox Christians ... we believe that (and many, many more) as fact ... like the Sun rising in the East and setting in the West.

And you have yet to quote the church father who proposed it first, or are you making this up?

Cut the BS about asking us to quote which Church Father said what, when and why.   >:(

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #621 on: October 02, 2010, 02:56:47 PM »
Sorry to not follow the advice I gave others, but I just can't tolerate this gross misuse of Scripture.  You split the last verse and only gave us part of its first phrase.  This cuts out a very important grammatical modifier that, coincidentally, only serves to support bogdan's case.

"Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, ..."  in one place.  in one place!

Once again, this passage shows St. Paul speaking merely to the church that meets in one place and not to the entire church as it is spread out throughout the world.

So if this context excludes the Orthodox, they are not believers, or part of the "whole church".
Again, the modifier "in one place".  This context focuses only on those who are members of the whole of the local church that meets in Corinth.  For those of us who aren't members of the local Corinthian church, how does this passage from 1 Corinthians even apply? ???


I believe you are misrepresenting the Orthodox.

I demand to see an official statement by the Orthodox church 1 Corinthians is irrelevant to Orthodoxy, that what is said therein does not apply to all the church, but only the Corinthians.
Oooh, getting kinda demanding, aren't we?  The tactic of one who's used to getting his way but knows he's not going to get that here.  You're the one with a case to prove, so prove it.  Give us a good reason, one you haven't given us yet, why we should believe in sola scriptura.

I expected the Orthodox understanding of the text, not your own private opinion which I am certain would be condemned by the Orthodox.

I don't have to refute an interpretation you should be condemning as heretical...
LOL! :laugh:  How can I expect you to read the Bible correctly when you can't even read me correctly?  I don't deny that St. Paul's Corinthian epistles certainly bear relevance to the whole Church and that we do well to read them, so before you assUme the ludicrous idea that I believe otherwise and totally disregard their presence in the canon of the New Testament, you would do well to grant that I'm representing my Orthodox faith truthfully and that you need to ask questions when something doesn't seem right to you.  I just affirm also that St. Paul wrote his Corinthian epistles to address certain heresies and schisms that had arisen in the local Corinthian church, heresies and schisms peculiar to Corinth that may not be an issue for the Church today--a proper exegesis of the text must reflect this understanding of historical context.  To see in St. Paul's rebuke of specific Corinthian practices a condemnation of Holy Tradition universally is therefore a ridiculous stretch of logic not supported by the text nor the context of the epistle.

Your contradict yourself, either 1 Cor 14:23 "this passage shows St. Paul speaking merely to the church that meets in one place and not to the entire church as it is spread out throughout the world" OR "St. Paul's Corinthian epistles certainly bear relevance to the whole Church."
The only contradiction in my statement is the contradiction you want to see.  Have you no concept of how St. Paul could have been speaking to certain problems unique to his specific audience, yet we deem his words as bearing relevance to the whole Church for the deeper truths they communicate?

You contradict yourself because you are aware how unhistorical your peculiar interpretation is, unique only to you, for the purpose of subverting Paul's meaning.
I think I'll let others address the hypocrisy of that accusation.


Now I see that you've stepped up your attack on our beliefs.  Could this be your effort to sidetrack us from pointing out how you have yet to prove the strength of your foundation for attacking us?  If you can't prove that sola scriptura is the Christian way to go, then you have no basis for your claims that we're following after heresy.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #622 on: October 02, 2010, 04:24:30 PM »

Wrong. I never said any such thing. You have a real problem with mixing up particulars and universals.

It appears you did say precisely that:

Our Lord was speaking to Jews about Jewish traditions, not to Christians about Christian traditions.

If you don't mean this to be a principle of interpretation, then why cite it?

It's not a matter of interpretation for Orthodox Christians ... we believe that (and many, many more) as fact ... like the Sun rising in the East and setting in the West.

And you have yet to quote the church father who proposed it first, or are you making this up?

Cut the BS about asking us to quote which Church Father said what, when and why.   >:(

I post at Orthodox Christianity.net to debate and discuss Orthodox beliefs.

If I wanted to discuss this with folks having different beliefs, I'd go there.

Your interpretation is not Orthodox, you invented it. I can tell, by its foolishness, no church father will  agree with you...

Its obvious Christ would never say non Jewish tradition can make the word of God of no effect, that men can follow it rather than the Word of God, just Jewish tradition alone is forbidden. Such foolishness can't be found among God's people:

 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
 14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear Me, everyone, and understand:
 15 "There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
 16 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"
 17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable.
 (Mar 7:6-17 NKJ)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #623 on: October 02, 2010, 04:50:50 PM »

Wrong. I never said any such thing. You have a real problem with mixing up particulars and universals.

It appears you did say precisely that:

Our Lord was speaking to Jews about Jewish traditions, not to Christians about Christian traditions.

If you don't mean this to be a principle of interpretation, then why cite it?

It's not a matter of interpretation for Orthodox Christians ... we believe that (and many, many more) as fact ... like the Sun rising in the East and setting in the West.

And you have yet to quote the church father who proposed it first, or are you making this up?

Cut the BS about asking us to quote which Church Father said what, when and why.   >:(

I post at Orthodox Christianity.net to debate and discuss Orthodox beliefs.

If I wanted to discuss this with folks having different beliefs, I'd go there.

Your interpretation is not Orthodox, you invented it. I can tell, by its foolishness, no church father will  agree with you...

Its obvious Christ would never say non Jewish tradition can make the word of God of no effect, that men can follow it rather than the Word of God, just Jewish tradition alone is forbidden. Such foolishness can't be found among God's people:

 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
 14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear Me, everyone, and understand:
 15 "There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
 16 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"
 17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable.
 (Mar 7:6-17 NKJ)
Hey, Alfred, you see all those other trees around the one you're analyzing?  They're called a forest.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #624 on: October 02, 2010, 05:06:43 PM »
no church father will  agree with you...

Alfred, which Church Fathers do you consider authoritative? Which ones have been most influential in guiding you into Apostolic Tradition? (BTW, I'm using Tradition to mean "that which is handed down" - check any worthwhile dictionary) You must certainly agree that if the Christian faith exists today as it did in the days of Christ and His Apostles that it must have been handed down some manner.

When you give us your list of Church Fathers, please tell us which one introduced the phrase "solum (or is it sola?) verbum dei". I'm getting tired of asking you to do this. You claim you want to discuss, so please, explain your terminology.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #625 on: October 02, 2010, 05:13:28 PM »

Wrong. I never said any such thing. You have a real problem with mixing up particulars and universals.

It appears you did say precisely that:

Our Lord was speaking to Jews about Jewish traditions, not to Christians about Christian traditions.

If you don't mean this to be a principle of interpretation, then why cite it?

It's not a matter of interpretation for Orthodox Christians ... we believe that (and many, many more) as fact ... like the Sun rising in the East and setting in the West.

And you have yet to quote the church father who proposed it first, or are you making this up?

Cut the BS about asking us to quote which Church Father said what, when and why.   >:(

I post at Orthodox Christianity.net to debate and discuss Orthodox beliefs.

If I wanted to discuss this with folks having different beliefs, I'd go there.

Your interpretation is not Orthodox, you invented it. I can tell, by its foolishness, no church father will  agree with you...

Its obvious Christ would never say non Jewish tradition can make the word of God of no effect, that men can follow it rather than the Word of God, just Jewish tradition alone is forbidden. Such foolishness can't be found among God's people:

 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
 14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear Me, everyone, and understand:
 15 "There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
 16 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"
 17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable.
 (Mar 7:6-17 NKJ)
Hey, Alfred, you see all those other trees around the one you're analyzing?  They're called a forest.

Protestant dispensationalists believe the Gospels belong to a period betwixt law and grace, and deny much of what Christ taught, as relevant to believers.

I can testify how happy it made me, to learn they are wrong, that everything Christ taught is relevant to me. Even when debunking specific traditions about Law, the spirit of the teaching applies to me.

Christ is my LORD, everything He taught applies to me. While I am saved by Grace, through faith, and not by works, I am convinced those who follow Christ will, in the regeneration, reap much more than they have sown, whatever is left behind in this life, for Christ's sake, will be paid back many fold:

 29 So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's,
 30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life.
 (Mar 10:29-30 NKJ)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #626 on: October 02, 2010, 05:39:32 PM »
I wonder if it bothers Alfred that he is betting the ranch on his claims about the Scriptures, when he is very likely using a Protestant Bible which is minus several books deleted by the Reformers. Prior to the Reformation, they had been included in other Bibles.

It is also worth noting that even some Protestant churches have since returned those books to the Bible.

The Orthodox Study Bible, which is one of the Bibles I own, doesn't have as many books in it as does the Bible used by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. (I am not necessarily positing that the Ethiopian Bible is the ideal, but it does pose an interesting question.)

I wonder what Alfred's views on this matter would be like had he grown up in Addis Ababa?



(edited for clarity)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 05:41:41 PM by biro »
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #627 on: October 02, 2010, 06:04:55 PM »
I post at Orthodox Christianity.net to debate and discuss Orthodox beliefs.

No, you are here to debate and discuss your personal belief system in attempting to convince us to apostatize and join you.

If I wanted to discuss this with folks having different beliefs, I'd go there.

Or this is the last place on Earth where you feel that people will engage you in debate and discussion on your self-proclaimed Superior belief system.  Which is fine; however, realize that you're debating with people who understand their faith.  Hopefully you have realized that we're not the ignorant men of Athens that the Apostle Paul preached to in Acts 17:22-34 (NKJV)

Quote
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

      TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

   Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

But instead of telling you that "we will hear you again on this matter," we are trying to set you on the right path.  However, if you ignore and disparage us like the men of Athens ignored and disparaged Paul, the status quo between you and us remains unchanged.   :)

Your interpretation is not Orthodox, you invented it. I can tell, by its foolishness, no church father will  agree with you...

But we don't know which Church Fathers you use to make your assertions.  Nearly all of the men of Athens rejected Paul.  You reject us.  Fine with me.   :)

Its obvious Christ would never say non Jewish tradition can make the word of God of no effect, that men can follow it rather than the Word of God, just Jewish tradition alone is forbidden. Such foolishness can't be found among God's people:

Where is the foolishness?   ???

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #628 on: October 02, 2010, 09:58:59 PM »

Wrong. I never said any such thing. You have a real problem with mixing up particulars and universals.

It appears you did say precisely that:

Our Lord was speaking to Jews about Jewish traditions, not to Christians about Christian traditions.

If you don't mean this to be a principle of interpretation, then why cite it?

It's not a matter of interpretation for Orthodox Christians ... we believe that (and many, many more) as fact ... like the Sun rising in the East and setting in the West.

And you have yet to quote the church father who proposed it first, or are you making this up?

Cut the BS about asking us to quote which Church Father said what, when and why.   >:(

I post at Orthodox Christianity.net to debate and discuss Orthodox beliefs.

If I wanted to discuss this with folks having different beliefs, I'd go there.

Your interpretation is not Orthodox, you invented it. I can tell, by its foolishness, no church father will  agree with you...

Its obvious Christ would never say non Jewish tradition can make the word of God of no effect, that men can follow it rather than the Word of God, just Jewish tradition alone is forbidden. Such foolishness can't be found among God's people:

 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."
 14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear Me, everyone, and understand:
 15 "There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man.
 16 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"
 17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable.
 (Mar 7:6-17 NKJ)

You don't read the fathers, and so how could you ever really know? You are only setting yourself up to be proven wrong again. I'm not gonna do your homework for you this time. No, you are gonna have to read them yourself.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 09:59:39 PM by jnorm888 »
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #629 on: October 02, 2010, 10:15:44 PM »
Well, Alfred, it should be clear that I'm not the only one waiting for your list of authoritative Church Fathers. Remember - you proclaimed yourself to be knowledgeable about them (according to you, none of them agree with the Orthodox). Please don't forget to indicate which one(s) wrote in pseudo-Latin.

Continued evasion is an admission that you have been wrong all along.