Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 211707 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #540 on: September 24, 2010, 07:54:28 PM »
Incorrect as apostolic doctrine defines the word of God as coming TO the church, not FROM it:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

Have you acknowledged that the things you write to us on this forum are the commandments of the Lord?

38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Applicable to a lot of people, starting with myself.

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:36-40 NKJ)

That is the problem with proof-texting; context is lost.

This refutes any and all claim the word of God is channeled through the church.

That is your opinion which we have summarily rejected and repudiated.

In near context Paul refers to the inspired teaching and tongues of the church, therefore these ARE NOT the "word of God."

Your church's traditions etc, are NOT the word of God according to Paul.

When are you going to give up this jousting at windmills?   ???

Why bother responding if you won't address my point.
Because you have no point?
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #541 on: September 24, 2010, 07:57:57 PM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

You are jealous...
You're getting quite personal here, which borders on the ad hominem.  Not only does that distract from the real issue you should be addressing, it may also violate forum policy.

via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.
Pure conjecture with basis in nothing but your own personal judgment.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.


I'm with bogdan on this.  Several pages ago I took up with you the fact that you need to first prove the premise of sola scriptura before we will accept any argument you build on that premise.  You have not offered a satisfactory response yet.  Ad hominems and judgmental attacks on your opponents' praxis do not count as satisfactory responses.

I proved sola scriptura is the logical extension of sola verbum dei.
You didn't convince us, hence you proved nothing.

You failed to prove your traditions are the word of God.
The burden of proof is not on me to do so, since I'm not trying to prove that our traditions ARE the word of God--you're the only person in this argument who doesn't believe they are.  You're the one attacking our traditions, something everyone else here accepts, so the burden of proof is on you to prove that our traditions are NOT the word of God.  For all the bluster you've shown here, you haven't convinced us of this.  Therefore, you have proven nothing.

Incorrect
What's incorrect?  My assertion that you have proven nothing?  My assertion that the burden is on you to provide enough evidence for your arguments that we should believe you?  I'm no longer talking about Tradition here.  I'm talking about what you have achieved or failed to achieve in this debate.

You are evading my point, claiming victory where there is none. Not that I care, your failure is evident to all without agenda.

My point is  undiminished by your declaration of victory...Paul denied Corinthian inspired traditions were the Word of God, therefore neither are yours.



 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?[/u]
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 08:00:06 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #542 on: September 24, 2010, 08:10:13 PM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

You are jealous...
You're getting quite personal here, which borders on the ad hominem.  Not only does that distract from the real issue you should be addressing, it may also violate forum policy.

via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.
Pure conjecture with basis in nothing but your own personal judgment.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.


I'm with bogdan on this.  Several pages ago I took up with you the fact that you need to first prove the premise of sola scriptura before we will accept any argument you build on that premise.  You have not offered a satisfactory response yet.  Ad hominems and judgmental attacks on your opponents' praxis do not count as satisfactory responses.

I proved sola scriptura is the logical extension of sola verbum dei.
You didn't convince us, hence you proved nothing.

You failed to prove your traditions are the word of God.
The burden of proof is not on me to do so, since I'm not trying to prove that our traditions ARE the word of God--you're the only person in this argument who doesn't believe they are.  You're the one attacking our traditions, something everyone else here accepts, so the burden of proof is on you to prove that our traditions are NOT the word of God.  For all the bluster you've shown here, you haven't convinced us of this.  Therefore, you have proven nothing.

Incorrect
What's incorrect?  My assertion that you have proven nothing?  My assertion that the burden is on you to provide enough evidence for your arguments that we should believe you?  I'm no longer talking about Tradition here.  I'm talking about what you have achieved or failed to achieve in this debate.

You are evading my point, claiming victory where there is none.
I'm done arguing your point, and it's not a claim of victory to say that you haven't yet convinced us of anything.  I'm actually trying to help you argue your point better. 8)

Not that I care, your failure is evident to all without agenda.
And you're the only one here without an agenda?

My point is  undiminished by your declaration of victory...Paul denied Corinthian inspired traditions were the Word of God, therefore neither are yours.
You have proven nothing, even though you have many people here coaching you on how you can be more effective at convincing us of your points.  All you're doing is using the same tactics we keep telling you don't work, citing the same proof-texts on which we keep correcting your interpretation by pointing out nothing more than the context of the passage, and arguing the same points we keep refuting.  Do you have any idea how much like this song you sound?  It's always the same old song and dance from you.  Nothing changes.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 08:11:47 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #543 on: September 24, 2010, 08:12:35 PM »
Paul denied Corinthian inspired traditions were the Word of God, therefore neither are yours.

What kind of bizarre logic is this?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 08:15:25 PM by bogdan »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #544 on: September 24, 2010, 08:24:57 PM »
Incorrect as apostolic doctrine defines the word of God as coming TO the church, not FROM it:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

Have you acknowledged that the things you write to us on this forum are the commandments of the Lord?

38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Applicable to a lot of people, starting with myself.

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:36-40 NKJ)

That is the problem with proof-texting; context is lost.

This refutes any and all claim the word of God is channeled through the church.

That is your opinion which we have summarily rejected and repudiated.

In near context Paul refers to the inspired teaching and tongues of the church, therefore these ARE NOT the "word of God."

Your church's traditions etc, are NOT the word of God according to Paul.

When are you going to give up this jousting at windmills?   ???

Why bother responding if you won't address my point.
OK
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #545 on: September 24, 2010, 08:27:37 PM »
Paul denied Corinthian inspired traditions were the Word of God, therefore neither are yours.

What kind of bizarre logic is this?
Indeed!  The Christian faith didn't originate FROM the Church; it originated from Christ and His Apostles and reached the world THROUGH the Church.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 08:28:21 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #546 on: September 24, 2010, 08:30:13 PM »
You are evading my point, claiming victory where there is none. Not that I care, your failure is evident to all without agenda.

My point is  undiminished by your declaration of victory...Paul denied Corinthian inspired traditions were the Word of God, therefore neither are yours.



 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you?
Yes. That's why, for instance, there is a canon of Scripture, because we fixed it.
Or was it you only that it reached?
Yes. Although you can claim your other gospel like Joseph Smith, the real one the Apostles passed down through the bishops they consecrated so it reached us.

37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant. (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)
LOL. priceless.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #547 on: September 24, 2010, 11:56:25 PM »
Paul denied Corinthian inspired traditions were the Word of God, therefore neither are yours.

What kind of bizarre logic is this?
Indeed!  The Christian faith didn't originate FROM the Church; it originated from Christ and His Apostles and reached the world THROUGH the Church.

The Church which Alfred has summarily rejected and repudiated and replaced with Himself as he dares continue to proselytize us on this board.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #548 on: September 25, 2010, 09:17:55 AM »
Paul denied Corinthian inspired traditions were the Word of God, therefore neither are yours.

What kind of bizarre logic is this?
Indeed!  The Christian faith didn't originate FROM the Church; it originated from Christ and His Apostles and reached the world THROUGH the Church.

The Church which Alfred has summarily rejected and repudiated and replaced with Himself as he dares continue to proselytize us on this board.

How bizarre. Your church is superior to one pastored by the apostle Paul?

What proof have you for this claim of yours.

AND if you aren't claiming superiority over a church pastored by Paul the apostle, then as their inspired tradition was not the Word of God, neither is yours.



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #549 on: September 25, 2010, 10:26:55 AM »
Paul denied Corinthian inspired traditions were the Word of God, therefore neither are yours.

What kind of bizarre logic is this?
Indeed!  The Christian faith didn't originate FROM the Church; it originated from Christ and His Apostles and reached the world THROUGH the Church.

The Church which Alfred has summarily rejected and repudiated and replaced with Himself as he dares continue to proselytize us on this board.

How bizarre. Your church is superior to one pastored by the apostle Paul?

We're not going to continue playing games of semantics.  Your claim is that your Church is superior to the one pastored by the Apostle Paul.

What proof have you for this claim of yours.

Pilate asked this question: What is Truth? (John 18:36-39, NKJV)

AND if you aren't claiming superiority over a church pastored by Paul the apostle, then as their inspired tradition was not the Word of God, neither is yours.

Like I said, we are not going to play circular logic games of semantics.   >:(

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #550 on: September 25, 2010, 11:17:47 AM »
Paul denied Corinthian inspired traditions were the Word of God, therefore neither are yours.

What kind of bizarre logic is this?
Indeed!  The Christian faith didn't originate FROM the Church; it originated from Christ and His Apostles and reached the world THROUGH the Church.

The Church which Alfred has summarily rejected and repudiated and replaced with Himself as he dares continue to proselytize us on this board.

How bizarre. Your church is superior to one pastored by the apostle Paul?

What proof have you for this claim of yours.

AND if you aren't claiming superiority over a church pastored by Paul the apostle, then as their inspired tradition was not the Word of God, neither is yours.



1 Corinthians 14:36 says nothing of the sort. It says the specific actions listed by St Paul are not the will of God. It says nothing about Holy Tradition not being the word of God.

Once again, Alfred is universalizing the particular. It is a common tactic I've noticed in his posts: taking one specific incident and blowing it up to a universal principle with absolutely no evidence for it. Of course, Sola Scriptura requires such an exegetical method. But again, Alfred: we don't accept that premise.

You still have not proven Sola Scriptura, or rather your ungrammatically-named "Sola Verbum Dei", so why should we listen to what you say? Why is your [mis]interpretation of scripture worth a hill of beans?

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #551 on: September 25, 2010, 01:24:38 PM »
Paul denied Corinthian inspired traditions were the Word of God, therefore neither are yours.

What kind of bizarre logic is this?
Indeed!  The Christian faith didn't originate FROM the Church; it originated from Christ and His Apostles and reached the world THROUGH the Church.

The Church which Alfred has summarily rejected and repudiated and replaced with Himself as he dares continue to proselytize us on this board.

How bizarre. Your church is superior to one pastored by the apostle Paul?

What proof have you for this claim of yours.

AND if you aren't claiming superiority over a church pastored by Paul the apostle, then as their inspired tradition was not the Word of God, neither is yours.



1 Corinthians 14:36 says nothing of the sort. It says the specific actions listed by St Paul are not the will of God. It says nothing about Holy Tradition not being the word of God.

Once again, Alfred is universalizing the particular. It is a common tactic I've noticed in his posts: taking one specific incident and blowing it up to a universal principle with absolutely no evidence for it. Of course, Sola Scriptura requires such an exegetical method. But again, Alfred: we don't accept that premise.

You still have not proven Sola Scriptura, or rather your ungrammatically-named "Sola Verbum Dei", so why should we listen to what you say? Why is your [mis]interpretation of scripture worth a hill of beans?

GOC  1 Corinthians 14:36 ἢ ἀφ᾽ [from] ὑμῶν ὁ λόγος τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐξῆλθεν, ἢ εἰς [unto] ὑμᾶς μόνους κατήντησεν; (1Co 14:36 GOC)

NAU  1 Corinthians 14:36 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? (1Co 14:36 NAU)

Paul certainly does dispute the inspired utterances of the Corinthians are "the word of God" and if any dispute that, let them remain ignorant:


36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

The Corinthians began thinking their tongues, prophecy and knowledge (1 Cor 13:8-14:35) were "the word of God" and Paul is setting them straight, "No, it is not."

As their inspired tradition was NOT the Word of God, neither is yours.

As Scripture is the only Word of God available to the church, sola scriptura = solum verbum dei.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #552 on: September 25, 2010, 01:58:08 PM »
The Word of God is a Person, Jesus Christ.


John 1

 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 2The same was in the beginning with God.

 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #553 on: September 25, 2010, 02:22:51 PM »
Paul certainly does dispute the inspired utterances of the Corinthians are "the word of God" and if any dispute that, let them remain ignorant:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

The Corinthians began thinking their tongues, prophecy and knowledge (1 Cor 13:8-14:35) were "the word of God" and Paul is setting them straight, "No, it is not."

Reading comprehension fail. Minus 2 points. You simply restated what you said before, which does not answer the bold part below:

Quote from: bogdan
1 Corinthians 14:36 says nothing of the sort. It says the specific actions listed by St Paul are not the will of God. It says nothing about Holy Tradition not being the word of God.

As to your other point,

As Scripture is the only Word of God available to the church, sola scriptura = solum verbum dei.

I say: lies and falsehood. The actual Logos, the Man, is very much available to the Church. I'm humbly planning to eat His Body and drink His Blood tomorrow morning. (I know you don't think it is, but anyone who does not believe Holy Communion is the true Body and Blood of Christ has never received Holy Communion. I hope that one day you do, because you'd be amazed.) And the Holy Spirit is also alive in the Church and quite present and real.

But perhaps you speak from experience. If these two divine Persons are not in your church, well, that should indicate something to you.

And also, if you really believe what you wrote about "solum verbum dei", then you are a Christian Atheist: the existence or non-existence of God does not even matter in your belief system, so long as the rules don't change. Why would I give up my living faith for your death faith?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 02:25:38 PM by bogdan »

Offline katherine 2001

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #554 on: September 25, 2010, 02:28:06 PM »
Unfortunately, some people in the Sola Scriptura crowd have actually comandeered that passage to apply to the Scriptures, rather than to Christ Himself.  Unfortunately, I have to remind them that the Scriptures are not the Son of God who became incarnate, lived a sinless life, died on the cross, and resurrected from the dead.  Christ did that, not the Scriptures.  As others have said, the Word is Christ Himself, not the Scriptures. 

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #555 on: September 25, 2010, 03:22:34 PM »

As Scripture is the only Word of God available to the church, sola scriptura = solum verbum dei.

Well, we're getting a little bit closer. You've gone - with no explanations as is your pattern - from "sola verbum dei" to "solum verbum dei". This at least makes some grammatical sense. However......."sola scriptura" is correctly understood as being in the ablative case, not nominative, and is more exactly written as "solā Scripturā", i.e. "by Scripture alone". (English commonly omits diacriticals in direct loan words, so I won't quibble about their absence.) If your phrase is meant to be an equivalent, then is should read as "solo verbo dei". Since you don't understand Latin, why are you using it?

I did a search for "solum verbum dei" and the first few pages of hits were all from Roman Catholic sources, refuting it, of course. So tell me, Alfred, and remember this is at least my third request for this information: when and where did "sola verbum dei/solum verbum dei" come into Christian usage? You introduced this phrase into the discussion. It is your responsibility to explain it.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #556 on: September 25, 2010, 04:37:28 PM »
Paul denied Corinthian inspired traditions were the Word of God, therefore neither are yours.

What kind of bizarre logic is this?
Indeed!  The Christian faith didn't originate FROM the Church; it originated from Christ and His Apostles and reached the world THROUGH the Church.

The Church which Alfred has summarily rejected and repudiated and replaced with Himself as he dares continue to proselytize us on this board.

How bizarre. Your church is superior to one pastored by the apostle Paul?
You don't belong to the Church pastored by the Apostle Paul.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #557 on: September 25, 2010, 04:40:54 PM »
Paul denied Corinthian inspired traditions were the Word of God, therefore neither are yours.

What kind of bizarre logic is this?
Indeed!  The Christian faith didn't originate FROM the Church; it originated from Christ and His Apostles and reached the world THROUGH the Church.

The Church which Alfred has summarily rejected and repudiated and replaced with Himself as he dares continue to proselytize us on this board.

How bizarre. Your church is superior to one pastored by the apostle Paul?

What proof have you for this claim of yours.

AND if you aren't claiming superiority over a church pastored by Paul the apostle, then as their inspired tradition was not the Word of God, neither is yours.



1 Corinthians 14:36 says nothing of the sort. It says the specific actions listed by St Paul are not the will of God. It says nothing about Holy Tradition not being the word of God.

Once again, Alfred is universalizing the particular. It is a common tactic I've noticed in his posts: taking one specific incident and blowing it up to a universal principle with absolutely no evidence for it. Of course, Sola Scriptura requires such an exegetical method. But again, Alfred: we don't accept that premise.

You still have not proven Sola Scriptura, or rather your ungrammatically-named "Sola Verbum Dei", so why should we listen to what you say? Why is your [mis]interpretation of scripture worth a hill of beans?

GOC  1 Corinthians 14:36 ἢ ἀφ᾽ [from] ὑμῶν ὁ λόγος τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐξῆλθεν, ἢ εἰς [unto] ὑμᾶς μόνους κατήντησεν; (1Co 14:36 GOC)

NAU  1 Corinthians 14:36 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? (1Co 14:36 NAU)

Paul certainly does dispute the inspired utterances of the Corinthians are "the word of God" and if any dispute that, let them remain ignorant:


36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

The Corinthians began thinking their tongues, prophecy and knowledge (1 Cor 13:8-14:35) were "the word of God" and Paul is setting them straight, "No, it is not."

As their inspired tradition was NOT the Word of God, neither is yours.

As Scripture is the only Word of God available to the church, sola scriptura = solum verbum dei.


And here we go, once again, around the mulberry bush. ::)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #558 on: September 25, 2010, 05:04:59 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 05:05:22 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Melodist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #559 on: September 25, 2010, 11:21:19 PM »
How bizarre. Your church is superior to one pastored by the apostle Paul?

Here is a short list of some of the churches that were pastored by Paul and their current pastors.

lystra, iconium
 
athens, phillipi, thessolonica, corinth

cyprus
 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 11:23:18 PM by Melodist »
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #560 on: September 26, 2010, 12:50:01 AM »
I frankly don't think he's ever going to accept any of our posts as valid. He has already chosen to alter the definitions of many things, to suit his own views. He also lacks a good deal of knowledge of the background of the Church. (You could say I do too. But at least I try.) Yet he won't read up on it. Many of us have given him links to websites, as well as plenty of Scriptural verses and so on, but all he does is post his favorite verses again. That's all he's willing to do: accept his point of view, as phrased in his couple of favorite verses. And I think that's all we're going to get. However, it's others who are told to curtail their arguments. Don't you get it? He's not having a debate to begin with, because there is no exchange. There is no processing going on, and no placement of something new each time. It's a sales pitch. Marketers are trained to never listen to 'No' and to not hang up until they get you to buy something.

Jesus Christ is the Savior. Alfred Persson is not.

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Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #561 on: September 26, 2010, 01:21:48 AM »
Yes, I've said the same thing; yet people still keep responding.

I suspect it's a "guy thing" - someguys just can't stand to let another guy have the last word! ;)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #562 on: September 26, 2010, 02:09:05 PM »
Isn't it about time in this thread for someone to mention Hitler or accuse someone of being a Nazi?
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #563 on: September 26, 2010, 02:25:22 PM »
It could be!   :)

In case no one does, here's another kitten.

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

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Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #564 on: September 26, 2010, 04:53:24 PM »
I'll kill two birds with one stone:

Heil Kitten!  :D
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #565 on: September 26, 2010, 04:57:02 PM »
Meow.   ;)
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mark 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #566 on: September 26, 2010, 06:57:24 PM »
I'll kill two birds with one stone:

Heil Kitten!  :D
That kitten will likely grow up big enough to kill his own birds.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #567 on: September 27, 2010, 05:51:16 AM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.

That holds some promise, rather than you folks denying the text in context, just claiming "it don't say that," why not exegete the text in context, explain what it does say.

I am very curious how you change the obvious intent of Paul to establish God's Word as authoritative above their spiritual experiences., to something more friendly to your traditions.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #568 on: September 27, 2010, 08:16:52 AM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.

That holds some promise, rather than you folks denying the text in context, just claiming "it don't say that," why not exegete the text in context, explain what it does say.

I am very curious how you change the obvious intent of Paul to establish God's Word as authoritative above their spiritual experiences., to something more friendly to your traditions.


as opposed to your vain imagination?

St. Paul is quite clear:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the Traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (II Thess. 2)
1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.  2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the Traditions just as I delivered them to you. (I Cor. 11).

Hence why St. Peter "the fellow presbyter-bishop" appealing to our bishops (I Peter 5:1) and us, recommends St. Paul: 16 our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. (II Peter 3)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 08:19:09 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #569 on: September 27, 2010, 10:07:44 AM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.

That holds some promise, rather than you folks denying the text in context, just claiming "it don't say that," why not exegete the text in context, explain what it does say.

I think we've tried that, but every time we exegete the text in context (both temporal and within Holy Tradition, which scripture cannot be separated from), you just claim "it don't say that." Then you put forth an alternative interpretation which is not so much an exegesis, but an extrapolation, with no evidence to back it up.

In other words, you are trying to figure out what the Apostles would say about Situation X, which is not in scripture, by taking scriptures about Situation A and B and extrapolating it. Since you have said the only Word we have access to is the Bible (that is, not Christ), you cannot do that. It would be pure conjecture on your part, because Christ is gone and therefore cannot help you understand the scriptures. Your posts have demonstrated that many of your interpretations are just that: pure conjecture based on your preconceived notions. You find prooftexts to back your beliefs, rather than basing your beliefs on the teachings of the Apostles.

Orthodox could do that, on the other hand, because we have claimed that proof of the Holy Spirit's guidance is if the universal Church accepts the interpretations as valid. All of this basic dogmatic development occurred very early (as evinced by the Apostolic Fathers and 2nd century writers who wrote of bishops and other things Protestants don't believe in), and occurred simultaneously across the world with little coordination. Yet they all believed the same things (and those beliefs are what the Orthodox Church teaches still today). The true Church has one mind, and heretics (from hairetikos, to choose) are those who have chosen not to submit to the universal Church's authentic witness and instead make up their own beliefs.

To accept the Church's teachings is to be humble and realize that you or I cannot possibly figure it all out for ourselves. Yet that is exactly what you have done. You are a church of one. No one can tell you differently, because you have apparently seen the mind of God. Never mind that every other Protestant could find something to disagree with you about. But it doesn't matter, because Alfred's personal religion, that he has figured out all on his own, is the true faith. That is the height of arrogance and pride.

Humility is the Orthodox path, which says: I cannot possibly figure any of this out on my own, because I am not pure of conscience, moreover I was not there. But these fathers from the past, who were pure and holy, who were friends of the Apostles and witnesses to the living and present Christ, have figured it out. I will defer to their teachings in all things, because they are the giants on whose shoulders we stand.

So that's what we do. You do not accept this path, because whatever credibility you give the consensus of the Fathers, they are still run through your filter of Perssonism, and whatever does not suit you is tossed out.

If you hope to affect our opinions in any way, rather than continue in this intellectual masturbation, I think you need to do precisely what PeterTheAleut said, and first convince us of your premise. Because we don't accept it, and are not going to if you keep giving your rubbish responses like "solum verbum dei", which nobody has ever heard of.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #570 on: September 27, 2010, 10:20:32 AM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.

That holds some promise, rather than you folks denying the text in context, just claiming "it don't say that," why not exegete the text in context, explain what it does say.

I think we've tried that, but every time we exegete the text in context (both temporal and within Holy Tradition, which scripture cannot be separated from), you just claim "it don't say that." Then you put forth an alternative interpretation which is not so much an exegesis, but an extrapolation, with no evidence to back it up.

In other words, you are trying to figure out what the Apostles would say about Situation X, which is not in scripture, by taking scriptures about Situation A and B and extrapolating it. Since you have said the only Word we have access to is the Bible (that is, not Christ), you cannot do that. It would be pure conjecture on your part, because Christ is gone and therefore cannot help you understand the scriptures. Your posts have demonstrated that many of your interpretations are just that: pure conjecture based on your preconceived notions. You find prooftexts to back your beliefs, rather than basing your beliefs on the teachings of the Apostles.

Orthodox could do that, on the other hand, because we have claimed that proof of the Holy Spirit's guidance is if the universal Church accepts the interpretations as valid. All of this basic dogmatic development occurred very early (as evinced by the Apostolic Fathers and 2nd century writers who wrote of bishops and other things Protestants don't believe in), and occurred simultaneously across the world with little coordination. Yet they all believed the same things (and those beliefs are what the Orthodox Church teaches still today). The true Church has one mind, and heretics (from hairetikos, to choose) are those who have chosen not to submit to the universal Church's authentic witness and instead make up their own beliefs.

To accept the Church's teachings is to be humble and realize that you or I cannot possibly figure it all out for ourselves. Yet that is exactly what you have done. You are a church of one. No one can tell you differently, because you have apparently seen the mind of God. Never mind that every other Protestant could find something to disagree with you about. But it doesn't matter, because Alfred's personal religion, that he has figured out all on his own, is the true faith. That is the height of arrogance and pride.

Humility is the Orthodox path, which says: I cannot possibly figure any of this out on my own, because I am not pure of conscience, moreover I was not there. But these fathers from the past, who were pure and holy, who were friends of the Apostles and witnesses to the living and present Christ, have figured it out. I will defer to their teachings in all things, because they are the giants on whose shoulders we stand.

So that's what we do. You do not accept this path, because whatever credibility you give the consensus of the Fathers, they are still run through your filter of Perssonism, and whatever does not suit you is tossed out.

If you hope to affect our opinions in any way, rather than continue in this intellectual masturbation, I think you need to do precisely what PeterTheAleut said, and first convince us of your premise. Because we don't accept it, and are not going to if you keep giving your rubbish responses like "solum verbum dei", which nobody has ever heard of.

Great points Bogdan! Alfred is trying hard to reinvent the wheel (God bless him!) when he does not have to. All that wasted time and energy is simply sad.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #571 on: September 27, 2010, 12:28:40 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.

That holds some promise, rather than you folks denying the text in context, just claiming "it don't say that," why not exegete the text in context, explain what it does say.

I am very curious how you change the obvious intent of Paul to establish God's Word as authoritative above their spiritual experiences., to something more friendly to your traditions.


as opposed to your vain imagination?

St. Paul is quite clear:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the Traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (II Thess. 2)
1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.  2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the Traditions just as I delivered them to you. (I Cor. 11).

Hence why St. Peter "the fellow presbyter-bishop" appealing to our bishops (I Peter 5:1) and us, recommends St. Paul: 16 our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. (II Peter 3)

You have the wrong text:

 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)

In context Paul is seen rejecting Corinthian inspired tradition (tongues prophecy or knowledge) as being "the Word of God". As the Corinthian inspired tradition is not the Word of God, neither is yours.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 12:30:07 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #572 on: September 27, 2010, 12:32:59 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.

That holds some promise, rather than you folks denying the text in context, just claiming "it don't say that," why not exegete the text in context, explain what it does say.

I think we've tried that, but every time we exegete the text in context...

Quoting Orthodox tradition, railing against sola scriptura, is not exegesis.

This is the text, explain what Paul meant in context, what is he saying to the Corinthians in verse 36:

 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #573 on: September 27, 2010, 12:46:08 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.

That holds some promise, rather than you folks denying the text in context, just claiming "it don't say that," why not exegete the text in context, explain what it does say.

I think we've tried that, but every time we exegete the text in context...

Quoting Orthodox tradition, railing against sola scriptura, is not exegesis.

This is the text, explain what Paul meant in context, what is he saying to the Corinthians in verse 36:

 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)

I have already done that several times. As I said, you are extrapolating a specific event into a universal principle without any basis for doing so. I reject the premise on which your point is based.

[edit] The more I think about it, this passage does not even tangentially apply to the situation at hand. It's total rubbish. Is this really the best prooftext you can find?

You glossed over a number of other points. Are you ignoring them because you have no answer, or what?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 12:57:59 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #574 on: September 27, 2010, 01:03:03 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.

That holds some promise, rather than you folks denying the text in context, just claiming "it don't say that," why not exegete the text in context, explain what it does say.

I think we've tried that, but every time we exegete the text in context...

Quoting Orthodox tradition, railing against sola scriptura, is not exegesis.

This is the text, explain what Paul meant in context, what is he saying to the Corinthians in verse 36:

 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)

I have already done that several times. As I said, you are extrapolating a specific event into a universal principle without any basis for doing so. I reject the premise on which your point is based.

[edit] The more I think about it, this passage does not even tangentially apply to the situation at hand. It's total rubbish. Is this really the best prooftext you can find?

You glossed over a number of other points. Are you ignoring them because you have no answer, or what?

Then it will be easy to copy paste the precise exegesis.

Paul denies the inspired tradition of the Corinthian church is the "word of God," therefore you cannot claim your tradition is the "word of God."

Prove that claim wrong using Paul's words in context.

Telling me how you did it, once upon a time, somewhere...is unacceptable, or I should say, unbelievable.

You can make me  a believer by exegesis, what is Paul saying in Verse 36 below:



 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)

« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 01:05:10 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #575 on: September 27, 2010, 01:29:24 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.

That holds some promise, rather than you folks denying the text in context, just claiming "it don't say that," why not exegete the text in context, explain what it does say.

I am very curious how you change the obvious intent of Paul to establish God's Word as authoritative above their spiritual experiences., to something more friendly to your traditions.


as opposed to your vain imagination?

St. Paul is quite clear:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the Traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (II Thess. 2)
1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.  2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the Traditions just as I delivered them to you. (I Cor. 11).

Hence why St. Peter "the fellow presbyter-bishop" appealing to our bishops (I Peter 5:1) and us, recommends St. Paul: 16 our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. (II Peter 3)

You have the wrong text:
No, I have the right text.
as opposed to your vain imagination?

St. Paul is quite clear:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the Traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (II Thess. 2)
1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.  2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the Traditions just as I delivered them to you. (I Cor. 11).

Hence why St. Peter "the fellow presbyter-bishop" appealing to our bishops (I Peter 5:1) and us, recommends St. Paul: 16 our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. (II Peter 3)


That you do not believe the Scriptures is not our problem. But you are right with you quote:
37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Physician, heal thyself.

30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)

In context Paul is seen rejecting Corinthian inspired tradition (tongues prophecy or knowledge) as being "the Word of God". As the Corinthian inspired tradition is not the Word of God, neither is yours.

No, we have no need of Perssonis inspired trandrition (self understanding and projection), as the Word of God came from us, not you, and it is from us that it reached the ends of the earth across the ages, including to present day CA. The gnostic inspired traditions, like all other heresies the Church has triumphed over throughout the ages, in not the Word of God, neither is yours.

So like St. Paul we reject your setting up of yourself as an authority, and stick to the Apostolic teaching of the bishops of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, thereby receiving St. Paul's praise:

St. Paul is quite clear:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the Traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (II Thess. 2)
1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.  2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the Traditions just as I delivered them to you. (I Cor. 11).

That you reject Scripture and the Apostles' Traditions which they taught and deliever by the Orthodox bishops, is not our problem. That you reject Scripture and walk disorderly and not according to the Tradition which we received from the Apostles (II Thess. 3:6) harms you, not us.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #576 on: September 27, 2010, 01:53:00 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.

That holds some promise, rather than you folks denying the text in context, just claiming "it don't say that," why not exegete the text in context, explain what it does say.

I think we've tried that, but every time we exegete the text in context...

Quoting Orthodox tradition, railing against sola scriptura, is not exegesis.

This is the text, explain what Paul meant in context, what is he saying to the Corinthians in verse 36:

 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)

I have already done that several times. As I said, you are extrapolating a specific event into a universal principle without any basis for doing so. I reject the premise on which your point is based.

[edit] The more I think about it, this passage does not even tangentially apply to the situation at hand. It's total rubbish. Is this really the best prooftext you can find?

You glossed over a number of other points. Are you ignoring them because you have no answer, or what?

Then it will be easy to copy paste the precise exegesis.

Paul denies the inspired tradition of the Corinthian church is the "word of God," therefore you cannot claim your tradition is the "word of God."

Prove that claim wrong using Paul's words in context.

Telling me how you did it, once upon a time, somewhere...is unacceptable, or I should say, unbelievable.

You can make me  a believer by exegesis, what is Paul saying in Verse 36 below:



 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)



Once again, St Paul is telling them those specific actions of the Corinthian Church are wrong, and therefore those specific actions are not inspired. Those specific actions are rejected from the deposit of Holy Tradition by St Paul.

Your interpretation of this passage is a baseless extrapolation.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 01:53:54 PM by bogdan »

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #577 on: September 27, 2010, 02:38:46 PM »
If Alfred is interested in learning what kind of esteem the Orthodox have for St. Paul, here is some information that might help. They didn't give Paul the honorific "Apostle to the Gentiles" for nothing.

 :angel:
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mark 6:4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #578 on: September 27, 2010, 03:08:43 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.

That holds some promise, rather than you folks denying the text in context, just claiming "it don't say that," why not exegete the text in context, explain what it does say.

I think we've tried that, but every time we exegete the text in context...

Quoting Orthodox tradition, railing against sola scriptura, is not exegesis.

This is the text, explain what Paul meant in context, what is he saying to the Corinthians in verse 36:

 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)

I have already done that several times. As I said, you are extrapolating a specific event into a universal principle without any basis for doing so. I reject the premise on which your point is based.

[edit] The more I think about it, this passage does not even tangentially apply to the situation at hand. It's total rubbish. Is this really the best prooftext you can find?

You glossed over a number of other points. Are you ignoring them because you have no answer, or what?

Then it will be easy to copy paste the precise exegesis.

Paul denies the inspired tradition of the Corinthian church is the "word of God," therefore you cannot claim your tradition is the "word of God."

Prove that claim wrong using Paul's words in context.

Telling me how you did it, once upon a time, somewhere...is unacceptable, or I should say, unbelievable.

You can make me  a believer by exegesis, what is Paul saying in Verse 36 below:



 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)



Once again, St Paul is telling them those specific actions of the Corinthian Church are wrong, and therefore those specific actions are not inspired. Those specific actions are rejected from the deposit of Holy Tradition by St Paul.

Your interpretation of this passage is a baseless extrapolation.
IOW, the logical fallacy of the hasty generalization (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #579 on: September 27, 2010, 03:15:35 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.

That holds some promise, rather than you folks denying the text in context, just claiming "it don't say that," why not exegete the text in context, explain what it does say.

I think we've tried that, but every time we exegete the text in context...

Quoting Orthodox tradition, railing against sola scriptura, is not exegesis.

This is the text, explain what Paul meant in context, what is he saying to the Corinthians in verse 36:

 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)

I have already done that several times. As I said, you are extrapolating a specific event into a universal principle without any basis for doing so. I reject the premise on which your point is based.

[edit] The more I think about it, this passage does not even tangentially apply to the situation at hand. It's total rubbish. Is this really the best prooftext you can find?

You glossed over a number of other points. Are you ignoring them because you have no answer, or what?

Then it will be easy to copy paste the precise exegesis.

Paul denies the inspired tradition of the Corinthian church is the "word of God," therefore you cannot claim your tradition is the "word of God."

Prove that claim wrong using Paul's words in context.

Telling me how you did it, once upon a time, somewhere...is unacceptable, or I should say, unbelievable.

You can make me  a believer by exegesis, what is Paul saying in Verse 36 below:



 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)



Once again, St Paul is telling them those specific actions of the Corinthian Church are wrong, and therefore those specific actions are not inspired. Those specific actions are rejected from the deposit of Holy Tradition by St Paul.

Your interpretation of this passage is a baseless extrapolation.
IOW, the logical fallacy of the hasty generalization (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html)

FAIL

You made a claim, gave no proof at all.

Nor did you explain what Paul meant in context.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #580 on: September 27, 2010, 03:20:45 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.

That holds some promise, rather than you folks denying the text in context, just claiming "it don't say that," why not exegete the text in context, explain what it does say.

I think we've tried that, but every time we exegete the text in context...

Quoting Orthodox tradition, railing against sola scriptura, is not exegesis.

This is the text, explain what Paul meant in context, what is he saying to the Corinthians in verse 36:

 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)

I have already done that several times. As I said, you are extrapolating a specific event into a universal principle without any basis for doing so. I reject the premise on which your point is based.

[edit] The more I think about it, this passage does not even tangentially apply to the situation at hand. It's total rubbish. Is this really the best prooftext you can find?

You glossed over a number of other points. Are you ignoring them because you have no answer, or what?

Then it will be easy to copy paste the precise exegesis.

Paul denies the inspired tradition of the Corinthian church is the "word of God," therefore you cannot claim your tradition is the "word of God."

Prove that claim wrong using Paul's words in context.

Telling me how you did it, once upon a time, somewhere...is unacceptable, or I should say, unbelievable.

You can make me  a believer by exegesis, what is Paul saying in Verse 36 below:



 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)



Once again, St Paul is telling them those specific actions of the Corinthian Church are wrong, and therefore those specific actions are not inspired. Those specific actions are rejected from the deposit of Holy Tradition by St Paul.

Your interpretation of this passage is a baseless extrapolation.
IOW, the logical fallacy of the hasty generalization (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html)

FAIL

You made a claim, gave no proof at all.

Nor did you explain what Paul meant in context.


Not our job...
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #581 on: September 27, 2010, 03:24:48 PM »
Alfred believes in more than sola scriptura: he is convinced that only he, the logical thinker that he is, can understand and explain the Holy Scriptures. It is not sola scriptura that wee face but solo Alfredo.

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #582 on: September 27, 2010, 03:25:42 PM »
It is not sola scriptura that wee face but solo Alfredo.
mmmmmmmmmmm. Chicken Alfredo.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #583 on: September 27, 2010, 04:04:02 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.

That holds some promise, rather than you folks denying the text in context, just claiming "it don't say that," why not exegete the text in context, explain what it does say.

I think we've tried that, but every time we exegete the text in context...

Quoting Orthodox tradition, railing against sola scriptura, is not exegesis.

This is the text, explain what Paul meant in context, what is he saying to the Corinthians in verse 36:

 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)

I have already done that several times. As I said, you are extrapolating a specific event into a universal principle without any basis for doing so. I reject the premise on which your point is based.

[edit] The more I think about it, this passage does not even tangentially apply to the situation at hand. It's total rubbish. Is this really the best prooftext you can find?

You glossed over a number of other points. Are you ignoring them because you have no answer, or what?

Then it will be easy to copy paste the precise exegesis.

Paul denies the inspired tradition of the Corinthian church is the "word of God," therefore you cannot claim your tradition is the "word of God."

Prove that claim wrong using Paul's words in context.

Telling me how you did it, once upon a time, somewhere...is unacceptable, or I should say, unbelievable.

You can make me  a believer by exegesis, what is Paul saying in Verse 36 below:



 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:30-40 NKJ)



Once again, St Paul is telling them those specific actions of the Corinthian Church are wrong, and therefore those specific actions are not inspired. Those specific actions are rejected from the deposit of Holy Tradition by St Paul.

Your interpretation of this passage is a baseless extrapolation.
IOW, the logical fallacy of the hasty generalization (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html)

FAIL

You made a claim, gave no proof at all.

Nor did you explain what Paul meant in context.



Since your interpretation is the one that takes the meaning beyond what is expressly written, you must prove your view, as my interpretation is the default. That St Paul is writing about an error unique to the Corinthian Church is self-evident, since the letter is addressed to that specific Church and discusses errors within that specific Church.

How you extrapolate the problems of women speaking in church and prophecy to a condemnation of Holy Tradition is for you to prove. I'm not going to defend the Orthodox view because that's beside the point. Your stated intention was to convince us. So please, have at it.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 04:10:28 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #584 on: September 27, 2010, 06:45:01 PM »
Just a suggestion to everyone else--I'm speaking merely within my role as a poster, so you are under no requirement to follow my advice:  We might do well to stop trying to correct the particular points of Alfred's interpretations of Scripture, since we've been doing this with him now for several weeks yet have succeeded at doing nothing but egging him on by giving him reason to "correct" us.  He loves to argue, and we only fuel this by arguing with him.

I think we would therefore be much more successful if we work to undermine his foundational premise of sola scriptura and drive him to do what he needs to do to convince us that sola scriptura is itself apostolic teaching.  Don't allow him to sidetrack you into arguing with him as to why his interpretation of a particular passage of Scripture (e.g., 1 Corinthians 14:36-38) doesn't fit its larger context or is otherwise wrong.  Focus your attack on his doctrine of sola scriptura.  As many of us have told him already, Alfred will never convince us to embrace his interpretations of Scripture if he cannot first convince us to embrace his doctrine of sola scriptura, since his whole modus operandi is based on sola scriptura.

Again, this is merely a suggestion, so take it FWIW.


Since your interpretation is the one that takes the meaning beyond what is expressly written, you must prove your view, as my interpretation is the default. That St Paul is writing about an error unique to the Corinthian Church is self-evident, since the letter is addressed to that specific Church and discusses errors within that specific Church.

How you extrapolate the problems of women speaking in church and prophecy to a condemnation of Holy Tradition is for you to prove. I'm not going to defend the Orthodox view because that's beside the point. Your stated intention was to convince us. So please, have at it.

Don't agree with Peter?

Your argument this applies only to the Corinthian church is disproved in context:

 22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
 23 Therefore if the whole church comes together (1Co 14:22-23 NKJ)

So if this context excludes the Orthodox, they are not believers, or part of the "whole church".




For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)