Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 195574 times)

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #495 on: September 18, 2010, 02:56:31 PM »
Ah, I see. So God is some cosmic prankster who is fooling us all into thinking things are happening that aren't. That's fantastic. I'm sure we'll all have a hearty chortle when we reach the pearly gates.

 ::)

You are denying what scripture says. What about "the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands" doesn't make sense to you? Weren't you talking about how plain and clear the Bible is a few pages ago? Now you're denying what the Bible says in favor of some workaround that only exists in your imagination.

You can talk about fallacies all you want, but the only thing fallacious here is your misinterpretation of scripture. You opt for your traditions of anti-tradition men over the very words of the text.

Quote
Peter denied laying on of hands caused the Spirit to descend, he says its a gift from God, and gifts from God are not dependent upon humans.

No, he didn't. He said the gift of the laying of hands was not for sale. What I quoted from you above is nowhere in the holy scripture.

Only a politician could spin my illustration of false cause fallacy that way.

God's gifts are given according to God's will, not according to the action of human hands.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #496 on: September 18, 2010, 02:58:59 PM »
False cause fallacy. It is obvious the gift of the Holy Spirit depends upon the will of God, not the actions of a pair of human hands.
It is obvious that it is the will of God to keep His promises to His Church and transmit His Spirit through the hands He annointed with power.

Acts 1:8"you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Sama'ria and to the end of the earth"

Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.  14 Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words.  16"...this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh."22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know.   32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you see and hear." 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Acts 8:5 Philip went down to a city of Sama'ria, and proclaimed to them the Christ. 12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Sama'ria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John,
15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit;
16 for it had not yet fallen on any of them,
but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid their hands on them
and they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:2 And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
And they said, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism." 4 And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them,
the Holy Spirit came on them.

Your argument
Not our argument. It is what scritpure says. Plainly:
16 for it had not yet fallen on any of them,
but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid their hands on them
and they received the Holy Spirit.

Cf. I Tim. 4:14 "Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the presbytery laid their hands upon you."  II Tim. 1:6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands." This latter is the Holy Mystery of Ordination/Consecration, which is akin to that of the Holy Mystery of Chrismation/Confirmation, as the latter makes one a member of the Royal Priesthood, and the other elevates one to the three orders of the ordained priesthood.  "There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." I Cor. 12:4 (although you do not believe the Scriptures, I'm going to cite them anyway, as we believe them). On this point, it does not matter:you are claiming that the laying on of hands does not confer the gift of God, and we, following Scripture, stand firm and hold fast the Tradition received of the Apostles that it comes through the hands of their successsors, the Orthodox bishops. That you refuse to believe the Scriptures is your own problem why you do not receive this gift.

reminded me of a prank I once pulled, when wireless door locks were just introduced. I made the car horn beep every time a driver put his hand on the car...much to his amazement. He would touch, and then draw his hand back, and the horn responded!

So he came running to the group, to tell us what just happened, and we all went outside to watch, while he touched the car, and nothing happened, much to his dismay, and our riotous laughter.

You can laugh at the scritpures, and mock the Holy Spirit, but He gets the last laugh.


Peter denied laying on of hands caused the Spirit to descend,

No, he did not retrack what he said at Pentecost, nor resign his commission of the Synod of Apostles to Samaria (v. 14), as "through the hands of the Apostles many signs and wonders were done" Acts 5:12.

The Scriptures plainly state (Acts 8:18) "And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given."
Not "Simon thought that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given."

But we know, from your rejection of the Scriptures' indentificaiton of Samuel at Endor because it doesn't fit your ideas, you prefer to call the Apostles pranksters and deny the explicit words of Scripture as lies.  If it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, trust His word, and accept His gifts through His chosen ministers, choose for yourselve this day whom you will serve, what man made scripture you will accept and in what man made tradition you will walk. But as for me and the household of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthdoox Church, we will serve the Lord. (Cf. Joshua 24:15).

he says its a gift from God,
What St. Peter says to Simon accords with what St. Paul says to Timothy, which is why St. (II) Peter (3) writes "16 as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen."

That you prefer to twist the Scriptures, walking disorderly and not in the Tradition which was delieverd by the Apostles, rather than to grow in the grace and knowledge that comes by listening to those who listened to Christ and are sent by Him (Luke 10:16) to whom it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God (Luke 8:10), you prefer to fulfill the words of Our Lord, Seeing you may not see, And hearing you may not understand."

But if you will not heed the Scritpures, that is your problem.

and gifts from God are not dependent upon humans.

No, they are not. Why do you try to appropriate them? "No man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as" the Apostles were and the bishops, their successors, are. Hebrews 5:4

1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands" (Hebrews 6) "you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Hebrews 5).
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 03:04:03 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #497 on: September 18, 2010, 03:16:11 PM »
Ah, I see. So God is some cosmic prankster who is fooling us all into thinking things are happening that aren't. That's fantastic. I'm sure we'll all have a hearty chortle when we reach the pearly gates.

 ::)

You are denying what scripture says. What about "the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands" doesn't make sense to you? Weren't you talking about how plain and clear the Bible is a few pages ago? Now you're denying what the Bible says in favor of some workaround that only exists in your imagination.

You can talk about fallacies all you want, but the only thing fallacious here is your misinterpretation of scripture. You opt for your traditions of anti-tradition men over the very words of the text.

Quote
Peter denied laying on of hands caused the Spirit to descend, he says its a gift from God, and gifts from God are not dependent upon humans.

No, he didn't. He said the gift of the laying of hands was not for sale. What I quoted from you above is nowhere in the holy scripture.

Only a politician could spin my illustration of false cause fallacy that way.

God's gifts are given according to God's will, not according to the action of human hands.

False dilemma. It is God's will that God's gifts be given according to the action of human hands. That's what that quote in bold type above says. Christ gave the Apostles authority to act in his behalf before his glorious Ascension.

By this authority the Apostles could do all kinds of things besides ordaining and chrismating people. They could forgive people's sins too, and they still do. Tonight my own priest will be hearing people's confessions and pronouncing God's forgiveness to people, just like Christ told the Apostles to do. But maybe your Bible doesn't have those verses, because it doesn't seem to have any of the other ones posted earlier by Melodist.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 03:26:02 PM by bogdan »

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #498 on: September 19, 2010, 03:13:07 PM »

A fundamental feature of the "departed" is they are departed, not present and so cannot hear you.

Scripture is clear the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, he cannot hear you.


So... those who have died in Christ do not have eternal life? You deny the communion of the saints? Wow, even Martin Luther didn't do that. You act like your Bible does not contain a Book of Revelation, in which the saints continue to worship God.

Wow, that's a lot to ask. And you wonder why we think you're an apostate.

You say your faith depends on Scripture. You are ignoring this:

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -Rev. 5:8

And this:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.  (Heb. 12:1)


Have a look-see over here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_of_Saints

(And here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasius_of_Alexandria)


Alfred's words are what happens when you sever yourself from the Body of Christ, and you don't read or hear about the real Church Fathers. You don't have that informative background. It's as if a history student didn't know about key battles or presidents-- as if they presented you with a paper on the American Revolution that said there never was a Battle of Bunker Hill. You'd scratch your head.

He makes himself to be such an admirer of St. Paul. Well, who was it who said "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you'"? (1 Cor. 12:21)

I don't deny the church is a communion of saints, I do deny the absurd idea it is a telepathic network linking the living to the dead.

Its evident SaintPaul didn't believe Saint Onesiphorus could hear him discuss his family with Saint Timothy, during their "communion of the saints":

16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:16-18 NKJ)

We have modern day proof "communion of the saints" is not a telepathic network, those who claim to belong to this "communion of the saints" all have telephones to call each other.
Revelation of St. John the Divine: 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


St. Matthew 22: 24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?
St. Luke 20:But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

Make me a believer...send me a telepathic message right now!

or

There is an Orthodox neighbor nearby, as he one of the saints in your communion, have him come over and tell me you sent him....as there is communion of the saints, and you can speak to all in the communion, it should be no problem for you...

Do it now. I give you 30 minutes.

Several years ago my wife and I discussed what would happen if one of us passed away. We decided on a sign that the departed would send to the one still living. It was very specific and personal in nature. It was also very unlikely to occur by co-incidence.

She passed away a few years ago. About three days after her funeral, i stepped out of my cae and there it was, the signal we had agreed on. I had not thought about it for years. So after I regained my composure I said aloud. "Okay Dorie, do that again". Two days later, it happened again except this time larger in scale, like : IS THIS CLEAR ENOUGH NOW ?

So, if you don't mind I shall continue to pray for her soul.

You were deceived...evil spirits love tests like that...cultists often ask for a sign their cult is right...and they get them, compliments of evil spirits...just as Saul was hardened in the wrong way by an evil spirit that never once suggested he repent and throw himself at the mercy of the LORD.

It reminds me of that witch who said to me, "You Christians speak in tongues* too! So its ok what I do!"

NKJ  Matthew 24:24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Mat 24:24 NKJ)

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 (2Th 2:9-12 NKJ)



*Cessationism is correct, the supernatural revelation via tongues were a sign to Jews and connected to the Old Covenant's passing, being replaced by the New Covenant.



Yes, you could be right. There really  are only two choices. One is that people survive death. The other is that I was deceived by an evil spirit.

I do understand that. I had my home blessed and anointment by a Priest after my wife's death, so I recognize the existence of demonic forces.

I tend to believe it was my wife, though I recognize I am not the best judge of this due to my grief. The reason is that an evil spirit will do things that lead you away from Church and Christ. This led me to stronger faith and greater piety and Church attendance. I don't think that is what evil spirits want.

And finally, not knowing for sure which, I chose to err on the side of caution and continue to pray for the soul of my wife. If you think that is a bad thing to do, then we certainly do not share the same religion.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #499 on: September 21, 2010, 08:27:32 AM »

A fundamental feature of the "departed" is they are departed, not present and so cannot hear you.

Scripture is clear the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, he cannot hear you.


So... those who have died in Christ do not have eternal life? You deny the communion of the saints? Wow, even Martin Luther didn't do that. You act like your Bible does not contain a Book of Revelation, in which the saints continue to worship God.

Wow, that's a lot to ask. And you wonder why we think you're an apostate.

You say your faith depends on Scripture. You are ignoring this:

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -Rev. 5:8

And this:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.  (Heb. 12:1)


Have a look-see over here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_of_Saints

(And here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasius_of_Alexandria)


Alfred's words are what happens when you sever yourself from the Body of Christ, and you don't read or hear about the real Church Fathers. You don't have that informative background. It's as if a history student didn't know about key battles or presidents-- as if they presented you with a paper on the American Revolution that said there never was a Battle of Bunker Hill. You'd scratch your head.

He makes himself to be such an admirer of St. Paul. Well, who was it who said "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you'"? (1 Cor. 12:21)

I don't deny the church is a communion of saints, I do deny the absurd idea it is a telepathic network linking the living to the dead.

Its evident SaintPaul didn't believe Saint Onesiphorus could hear him discuss his family with Saint Timothy, during their "communion of the saints":

16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:16-18 NKJ)

We have modern day proof "communion of the saints" is not a telepathic network, those who claim to belong to this "communion of the saints" all have telephones to call each other.
Revelation of St. John the Divine: 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


St. Matthew 22: 24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?
St. Luke 20:But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

Make me a believer...send me a telepathic message right now!

or

There is an Orthodox neighbor nearby, as he one of the saints in your communion, have him come over and tell me you sent him....as there is communion of the saints, and you can speak to all in the communion, it should be no problem for you...

Do it now. I give you 30 minutes.

Several years ago my wife and I discussed what would happen if one of us passed away. We decided on a sign that the departed would send to the one still living. It was very specific and personal in nature. It was also very unlikely to occur by co-incidence.

She passed away a few years ago. About three days after her funeral, i stepped out of my cae and there it was, the signal we had agreed on. I had not thought about it for years. So after I regained my composure I said aloud. "Okay Dorie, do that again". Two days later, it happened again except this time larger in scale, like : IS THIS CLEAR ENOUGH NOW ?

So, if you don't mind I shall continue to pray for her soul.

You were deceived...evil spirits love tests like that...cultists often ask for a sign their cult is right...and they get them, compliments of evil spirits...just as Saul was hardened in the wrong way by an evil spirit that never once suggested he repent and throw himself at the mercy of the LORD.

It reminds me of that witch who said to me, "You Christians speak in tongues* too! So its ok what I do!"

NKJ  Matthew 24:24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Mat 24:24 NKJ)

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 (2Th 2:9-12 NKJ)



*Cessationism is correct, the supernatural revelation via tongues were a sign to Jews and connected to the Old Covenant's passing, being replaced by the New Covenant.



Yes, you could be right. There really  are only two choices. One is that people survive death. The other is that I was deceived by an evil spirit.

I do understand that. I had my home blessed and anointment by a Priest after my wife's death, so I recognize the existence of demonic forces.

I tend to believe it was my wife, though I recognize I am not the best judge of this due to my grief. The reason is that an evil spirit will do things that lead you away from Church and Christ. This led me to stronger faith and greater piety and Church attendance. I don't think that is what evil spirits want.

And finally, not knowing for sure which, I chose to err on the side of caution and continue to pray for the soul of my wife. If you think that is a bad thing to do, then we certainly do not share the same religion.

Prayer for the dead accomplishes nothing. If saved, then they are in paradise awaiting resurrection, your prayer unneeded. If in Hades, their lot is unchangeable until the Day of Jesus, when only those not in the Lamb's book of life, are lost:

Even the righteous dead cannot help those in Hades, they suffer until the Day of the Lord Jesus:

 26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' (Luk 16:26 NKJ)

 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:6 NKJ)

 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-1 NKJ)

You wife is saved, all who believe in Christ in this life are saved to the uttermost, and never experience hell at all:


 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Heb 7:25 NKJ)

The Elect who die  unsaved go to hades to pay for their sins, like Dives did. That Dives fully expected to rise into life is implicit in the symbols. He calls Abraham his father, that is not true of children of the devil. Abraham says there are those in paradise who wanted to help Dives, but could not. The saved in paradise do not want to help children of the devil escape their punishment. Dives has Christian concern for his family, lest they join him. Children of the devil care only about themselves and when told there was no helping, a child of the devil would have responded with cursing.

Scripture is explicit, ONLY those not written in the book of life, rise up from hell to be cast  into the lake of fire, which is the death from which there is no resurrection, the second death.


When Jesus said "few would be saved" in context that means "few of His generation," not few of all mankind:

 23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
 25 "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying,`Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you,`I do not know you, where you are from,'
 26 "then you will begin to say,`We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'
 27 "But He will say,`I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
 28 "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.
 29 "They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. (Luk 13:23-29 NKJ)


These who rise in the resurrection would be condemning no one if they were risen only to be cast into the lake of fire.

Those who saw Christ's glory during His first Advent, but rejected Him, were an evil generation from whom  few were saved:

 41 "The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
 42 "The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.
 (Mat 12:41-42 NKJ)

 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
 (Rev 7:9-10 NKJ)

 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
 (Rom 11:26-29 NKJ)


In this context, "all Israel" = "all God's Elect" chosen before the founding of the world, both Jew and Gentile:

 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)

So there is no need to pray for your wife or anyone who called upon the name of the LORD in this life, they immediately go into paradise when they die, your prayers cannot make their lot any better.

All of God's Elect, those God foreknew before He created, but who failed to call upon the name of the LORD in this life, must pay for their sins in Hades, but are not lost, they will rise into life at the Day of Christ.

This is the apostolic doctrine from whence Catholics, both east and west, got their purgatory doctrine. They bollixed it up after the apostles left, confusing Hades as a place for believers....

Just as the thief at the cross went immediately into paradise when he died, so do ALL believers:

 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Luk 23:43 NKJ)


This world is infested with evil spirits who "hear" our conversations, and use them against us. No doubt the discussion you had with your wife about giving a sign, was heard by them, and they are using it against you.

You can rest assured, your wife is in paradise, praying for you...not that you as a believer need it per se...but because she loves you.



How do I know this? God does not lie and it is written:

 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." (Rom 10:11 NKJ)

15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
 16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
 (Joh 3:15-16 NKJ)

We don't believe in Christ to be punished in hell or purgatory, He saves us to the uttermost.

Note Paul does not fear any "purgatory" after death, he knows he will go immediately into paradise, be gathered to his people just as Lazarus was by an angel of God, just as your wife was:

 23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.
 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.
 (Phi 1:23-24 NKJ)

 22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. (Luk 16:22 NKJ)

Considering the context of Paul's self recriminations for his sins, it is impossible he would be confident of entry into paradise immediately upon physical death, if purgatory for those who believe in this life,  existed.

NKJ  2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
 (2Co 5:1-3 NKJ)


Hades is purgatory in a sense, but only for the unsaved Elect of God, those who will be saved, but not while alive. They are saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus (not in hell), after they live according to God in the spirit:

 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
 (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

Peter preached to these, they rejected his preaching, but that didn't mean they were eternally lost...some among them were of God's elect, and when they die, Peter's preaching is recalled by them, and they live according to God in the spirit...that their spirits may be saved in the day of the LORD Jesus = at the resurrection:

 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15 NKJ)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 09:01:21 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #500 on: September 21, 2010, 09:03:54 AM »
Prayer for the dead accomplishes nothing. If saved, then they are in paradise awaiting resurrection, your prayer unneeded. If in Hades, their lot is unchangeable until the Day of Jesus, when only those not in the Lamb's book of life, are lost:
So are you saying that the Apostle Paul was wrong when he prayed, "The Lord grant to him (Onesiphorus) that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus." (2Ti 1:18 NKJV), a verse that you yourself quoted in reply #421, and later confirmed that you believe Onesiphorus to be deceased in reply #427
Quote
Its implicit, Paul talks about him in the third person, and would have greeted him personally, not just his household, if still alive:

 19 Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. (2Ti 4:19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #501 on: September 21, 2010, 09:23:18 AM »
Prayer for the dead accomplishes nothing. If saved, then they are in paradise awaiting resurrection, your prayer unneeded. If in Hades, their lot is unchangeable until the Day of Jesus, when only those not in the Lamb's book of life, are lost:
So are you saying that the Apostle Paul was wrong when he prayed, "The Lord grant to him (Onesiphorus) that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus." (2Ti 1:18 NKJV), a verse that you yourself quoted in reply #421, and later confirmed that you believe Onesiphorus to be deceased in reply #427
Quote
Its implicit, Paul talks about him in the third person, and would have greeted him personally, not just his household, if still alive:

 19 Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. (2Ti 4:19 NKJ)

He didn't need mercy, his unsaved family did, and so by extension, its mercy to him:

 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:16-18 NKJ)

Its merciful to him that his family be well received.

Scripture is clear, there is no purgatory for believers.

Hades awaits all who do not repent and believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, during this life:

 12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Act 4:12 NKJ)

BUT lest the works of the devil have any success, God predestines those who are His, unto salvation, lest any of them be lost:

 8 For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jo 3:8 NKJ)

 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
 (Rom 8:29-31 NKJ)


God knew many would fail to repent and believe in this life, yet as righteous Judge He cannot allow their sin go unpunished. Hence He created Hades, so they could repent, and live according to God in the spirit, and be saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus = at the resurrection:

ps: It is possible the non elect repent and believe and be saved, they  just will it not because they are the children of the devil, and like him, they hate God without cause:

15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Mat 13:15 NKJ)

Hence ONLY those not written in the lamb's book of life, are lost forever:

standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-1 NKJ)

 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. (Rev 21:27 NKJ)



I am persuaded by the revelation of God as Father, as Love in scripture, He could not fail to predestine all who are His unto salvation, for if any were lost, He would mourn them for all eternity, changing heaven into hell for Him:


 24 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
 26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
 28 "Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
 29 "I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.

 (Eze 36:24-29 NKJ)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 09:51:28 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #502 on: September 21, 2010, 09:36:52 AM »
Prayer for the dead accomplishes nothing. If saved, then they are in paradise awaiting resurrection, your prayer unneeded. If in Hades, their lot is unchangeable until the Day of Jesus, when only those not in the Lamb's book of life, are lost:
So are you saying that the Apostle Paul was wrong when he prayed, "The Lord grant to him (Onesiphorus) that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus." (2Ti 1:18 NKJV), a verse that you yourself quoted in reply #421, and later confirmed that you believe Onesiphorus to be deceased in reply #427
Quote
Its implicit, Paul talks about him in the third person, and would have greeted him personally, not just his household, if still alive:

 19 Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. (2Ti 4:19 NKJ)
genesione, who are you to expect consistency from Perssonism?
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #503 on: September 21, 2010, 10:04:15 AM »
Prayer for the dead accomplishes nothing. If saved, then they are in paradise awaiting resurrection, your prayer unneeded. If in Hades, their lot is unchangeable until the Day of Jesus, when only those not in the Lamb's book of life, are lost:
So are you saying that the Apostle Paul was wrong when he prayed, "The Lord grant to him (Onesiphorus) that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus." (2Ti 1:18 NKJV), a verse that you yourself quoted in reply #421, and later confirmed that you believe Onesiphorus to be deceased in reply #427
Quote
Its implicit, Paul talks about him in the third person, and would have greeted him personally, not just his household, if still alive:

 19 Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. (2Ti 4:19 NKJ)

He didn't need mercy, his unsaved family did, and so by extension, its mercy to him:

 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:16-18 NKJ)

Its merciful to him that his family be well received.

Scripture is clear, there is no purgatory for believers.

Hades awaits all who do not repent and believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, during this life:

 12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Act 4:12 NKJ)

BUT lest the works of the devil have any success, God predestines those who are His, unto salvation, lest any of them be lost:

 8 For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1Jo 3:8 NKJ)

 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
 (Rom 8:29-31 NKJ)


God knew many would fail to repent and believe in this life, yet as righteous Judge He cannot allow their sin go unpunished. Hence He created Hades, so they could repent, and live according to God in the spirit, and be saved in the Day of the LORD Jesus = at the resurrection:

ps: It is possible the non elect repent and believe and be saved, they  just will it not because they are the children of the devil, and like him, they hate God without cause:

15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.' (Mat 13:15 NKJ)

Hence ONLY those not written in the lamb's book of life, are lost forever:

standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-1 NKJ)

 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. (Rev 21:27 NKJ)



I am persuaded by the revelation of God as Father, as Love in scripture, He could not fail to predestine all who are His unto salvation, for if any were lost, He would mourn them for all eternity, changing heaven into hell for Him:


 24 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
 26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
 28 "Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
 29 "I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.

 (Eze 36:24-29 NKJ)


Ran out of time, final correction:

Hence ONLY those not written in the lamb's book of life, are lost forever:

 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-1 NKJ)

 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. (Rev 21:27 NKJ)

Its "books" plural of majesty, recording not just deeds, but intent of the heart behind the deed...the unsaved dead are punished according to what is in that book, but another book is opened for those who are God's Elect, the book of life....these enter life.

Not all cast into the lake of fire suffer eternally, as is deducible from the threat of ETERNAL torment for taking the Mark of the Beast: If all unsaved will be tormented eternally anyway, then the warning is meaningless:

 11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev 14:11 NKJ)


While their punishment (sentence, condemnation) is eternal, irreversible being the second death from which there is no resurrection, that some of them cease to exist after a time of torment is clear from this imagery of total annihilation:


 3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts. (Mal 4:3 NKJ)


It is their "place" before the "face of God" that is destroyed forever:

 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, (2Th 1:9 NKJ)

Their place forever will be on that "that side knowing only God's wrath." But it does not follow this requires eternal torment for all. While the banishment or sentence is eternal, the particular torment received is according to their deeds: Compare the analogy:

 34 "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. (Mat 18:34 NKJ)

And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
(Rev 20:12-13 NKJ)


Therefore Satan and his angels, and all like them, are tormented eternally, their sin merits it:

 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev 20:10 NKJ)


« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 10:23:21 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #504 on: September 21, 2010, 10:23:12 AM »
Prayer for the dead accomplishes nothing. If saved, then they are in paradise awaiting resurrection, your prayer unneeded. If in Hades, their lot is unchangeable until the Day of Jesus, when only those not in the Lamb's book of life, are lost:
So are you saying that the Apostle Paul was wrong when he prayed, "The Lord grant to him (Onesiphorus) that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus." (2Ti 1:18 NKJV), a verse that you yourself quoted in reply #421, and later confirmed that you believe Onesiphorus to be deceased in reply #427
Quote
Its implicit, Paul talks about him in the third person, and would have greeted him personally, not just his household, if still alive:

 19 Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. (2Ti 4:19 NKJ)
genesione, who are you to expect consistency from Perssonism?
:D The same one who expects Alfred to obey the Scriptures he so loudly proclaims:
"But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one." (Matthew 5:37, NKJV)

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #505 on: September 21, 2010, 01:03:43 PM »
Man, Alfred has a great deal of energy. I would be tired of this by now.
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #506 on: September 21, 2010, 01:21:38 PM »
Man, Alfred has a great deal of energy. I would be tired of this by now.
Yeah, 'tis a tough thing to be constantly kicking against the goads.
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #507 on: September 21, 2010, 01:49:37 PM »
Although I disagree with much of his theology that is not where I mainly contend but with his preaching of non Orthodox doctrines contentiously and that is where I feel the chief sense of heresy lies (per the epistle to Titus 3:9-11).
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #508 on: September 21, 2010, 08:25:57 PM »
Prayer for the dead accomplishes nothing. If saved, then they are in paradise awaiting resurrection, your prayer unneeded. If in Hades, their lot is unchangeable until the Day of Jesus, when only those not in the Lamb's book of life, are lost:


I have wasted time on worse. Thanks for your opinion. Since the Church thinks it is efficacious then I intend to continue. Who are you again?
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #509 on: September 21, 2010, 09:06:21 PM »
"It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins." (2 Mac 12:46)

Alfred won't have that in his Bible, because the reformers removed the book. However, it is easily available in an Orthodox Bible, as well as in a Catholic Bible, such as you can find in any store. And it's of course searchable online. (It's odd how the so-called 'deuterocanonical' books are still called that, when they are accepted in the canon of scripture by the majority of the Christians in the world. One billion Catholics + 250 million Orthodox= 1.25 billion, leaving only 0.75 billion Protestants who do not accept them; the other 3 billion people in the world belong to different religions... but that's another discussion, though.) Anyway, the belief that prayer comforts the dead is Scriptural.

Here's something from a book that Alfred's Bible should have, though:


Revelation 5:8

 "8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

I've quoted this before, but I have to do so again. Prayers of the saints, anyone?  :angel:


2 Thessalonians 1:10

"(...) 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

If you do not believe in the communion of the saints, it's like saying that Jesus does not save, or that eternal life is not eternal.  ??? It doesn't work that way.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #510 on: September 21, 2010, 10:19:12 PM »
"It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins." (2 Mac 12:46)

Alfred won't have that in his Bible, because the reformers removed the book. However, it is easily available in an Orthodox Bible, as well as in a Catholic Bible, such as you can find in any store. And it's of course searchable online.
Even if you deny that Maccabees et al. are Scriptural, this passage is clear evidence that the Jews in the centuries immediately prior to the Christian era did most certainly pray for the dead. There is no reason to believe that the Apostles and other early Jewish Christians would have believed or practised otherwise. In fact, with vivid proof of the Resurrection, Christians should be all the more confident in praying for the dead (meaning dead to us in our present world) knowing that we are and will always be united with them in Christ.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #511 on: September 21, 2010, 10:31:51 PM »
Prayer for the dead accomplishes nothing. If saved, then they are in paradise awaiting resurrection, your prayer unneeded. If in Hades, their lot is unchangeable until the Day of Jesus, when only those not in the Lamb's book of life, are lost:


I have wasted time on worse. Thanks for your opinion. Since the Church thinks it is efficacious then I intend to continue. Who are you again?

Your question is irrelevant as I cited scripture, not myself, for proof of what I say.

As for me, I am nothing, just a voice in the wilderness saying, Make God's way easy, repent of any crooked ways, remove every obstacle to God reigning in your heart as Sovereign...one of the many voices He has sent:

4 as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:`Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.
 5 Every valley shall be filled And every mountain and hill brought low; The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough ways smooth;
 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'"
(Luk 3:4-6 NKJ)

This is impossible with men, but with God all things are possible:

 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
 11 "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
 12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
 13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
 14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
 15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
 (Joh 3:8-15 NKJ)

20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 10:44:18 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #512 on: September 21, 2010, 10:40:54 PM »
Prayer for the dead accomplishes nothing. If saved, then they are in paradise awaiting resurrection, your prayer unneeded. If in Hades, their lot is unchangeable until the Day of Jesus, when only those not in the Lamb's book of life, are lost:


I have wasted time on worse. Thanks for your opinion. Since the Church thinks it is efficacious then I intend to continue. Who are you again?

Just a voice in the wilderness saying, Make God's way easy, repent of any crooked ways, remove every obstacle to God reigning in your heart as Sovereign:

4 as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:`Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.
 5 Every valley shall be filled And every mountain and hill brought low; The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough ways smooth;
 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'"
(Luk 3:4-6 NKJ)

This is impossible with men, but with God all things are possible:

 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
 11 "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
 12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
 13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
 14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
 15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
 (Joh 3:8-15 NKJ)

20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)
PHysician, heal thyself
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #513 on: September 21, 2010, 11:06:48 PM »
Alfred, I think you should move on to a different subject as Orthodoxy has no official teaching about the after life. Only that there will be a judgment day. Beyond that is just speculation unless you know someone that has come back to tell you personally what it's like.

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #514 on: September 22, 2010, 12:09:37 AM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #515 on: September 22, 2010, 12:35:29 AM »
Prayer for the dead accomplishes nothing. If saved, then they are in paradise awaiting resurrection, your prayer unneeded. If in Hades, their lot is unchangeable until the Day of Jesus, when only those not in the Lamb's book of life, are lost:


I have wasted time on worse. Thanks for your opinion. Since the Church thinks it is efficacious then I intend to continue. Who are you again?

Your question is irrelevant as I cited scripture, not myself, for proof of what I say.
The Bible is a collection of stories, not a collection of proof texts.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #516 on: September 22, 2010, 12:36:54 AM »
Prayer for the dead accomplishes nothing. If saved, then they are in paradise awaiting resurrection, your prayer unneeded. If in Hades, their lot is unchangeable until the Day of Jesus, when only those not in the Lamb's book of life, are lost:


I have wasted time on worse. Thanks for your opinion. Since the Church thinks it is efficacious then I intend to continue. Who are you again?

Your question is irrelevant as I cited scripture, not myself, for proof of what I say.
The Bible is a collection of stories, not a collection of proof texts.
IOW, you just revealed that you're guilty of the very approach to Scripture that Dr. Witherington criticized in the interview I quoted a few days ago.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #517 on: September 22, 2010, 07:30:27 AM »
Prayer for the dead accomplishes nothing. If saved, then they are in paradise awaiting resurrection, your prayer unneeded. If in Hades, their lot is unchangeable until the Day of Jesus, when only those not in the Lamb's book of life, are lost:


I have wasted time on worse. Thanks for your opinion. Since the Church thinks it is efficacious then I intend to continue. Who are you again?

Your question is irrelevant as I cited scripture, not myself, for proof of what I say.
The Bible is a collection of stories, not a collection of proof texts.
IOW, you just revealed that you're guilty of the very approach to Scripture that Dr. Witherington criticized in the interview I quoted a few days ago.

I missed that.

So to you the Bible is just fable...or stories having no relevance to doctrine?

To me its the Word of God, and we can heed what it says confident its the truth.

The Bible reveals what is beyond the veil...Christ was there, and never did He say "the Bible is wrong about the afterlife, its just stories, you cannot cite it to prove anything."

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #518 on: September 22, 2010, 07:33:36 AM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

You are jealous...via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #519 on: September 22, 2010, 07:51:53 AM »

You are jealous...via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.


Lord, have mercy!

Make known your ways to me, O Lord,
And teach me Your paths.
Lead me in Your truth and teach me.
For You are the God of my salvation,
And on You, I wait all the day.
(Psalm 24:4-5, SAAS)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #520 on: September 22, 2010, 11:08:58 AM »
Prayer for the dead accomplishes nothing. If saved, then they are in paradise awaiting resurrection, your prayer unneeded. If in Hades, their lot is unchangeable until the Day of Jesus, when only those not in the Lamb's book of life, are lost:


I have wasted time on worse. Thanks for your opinion. Since the Church thinks it is efficacious then I intend to continue. Who are you again?

Your question is irrelevant as I cited scripture, not myself, for proof of what I say.

As for me, I am nothing, just a voice in the wilderness saying, Make God's way easy, repent of any crooked ways, remove every obstacle to God reigning in your heart as Sovereign...one of the many voices He has sent:

4 as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:`Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.
 5 Every valley shall be filled And every mountain and hill brought low; The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough ways smooth;
 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'"
(Luk 3:4-6 NKJ)

This is impossible with men, but with God all things are possible:

 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
 9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?"
 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
 11 "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
 12 "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
 13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
 14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
 15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
 (Joh 3:8-15 NKJ)

20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)

My question is most certainly relevant. You are giving me your own personal interpretation of scripture. It  is counter to the interpretation of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church whose interpretations have stood the test of time.

Why should I stop praying for my wife based on the musing any old guy on the Internet? Especially when other people here have shown them to be an incomplete understanding? Why should I risk it?

 "Ok honey, I am not going to pray for you anymore, best of luck"    Seems harsh :)

You know, it's different when you are not just talking in theory, but rather about  a real person whom you love. 


Blessed art Thou, O Lord ...Give rest, O God, to the soul of Thy Handmaiden Dorie, and set her in Paradise, where the choirs of the Saints and the Just shine like the stars. Give rest, O Lord, to Thy departed servant, and overlook all her offenses.

Amen
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #521 on: September 22, 2010, 11:26:34 AM »
Here is a prayer millions of Orthodox say every day:

O Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth; who art everywhere and fillest all things; Treasury of blessings, and giver of life: come and abide in us, and cleanse us from every impurity, and save our souls, O Good One.


There you have it. Asking God to come abide in you, cleanse you from every impurity and save your soul.  :)


I might add that accusing others of jealousy is calumny, and breaks a Commandment. Are you sure you want to do that?
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Offline Melodist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #522 on: September 22, 2010, 11:51:21 AM »
I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

John 5:39-40
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Russell

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #523 on: September 22, 2010, 11:55:21 AM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

You are jealous...via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.

I don't believe the scripture is ment to be study by one person alone.  

In the story of the Ethiopian Eunuch ( Acts chapter 8 ) Philip asks Do you understand what you are reading?,  the Eunuch says How can I, unless someone guides me?




Post corrected to remove unwanted smiley--without a space "8 )" becomes "8)", which you probably don't want in this post.  -PtA
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 02:34:45 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Mathe 24:36

Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #524 on: September 22, 2010, 12:05:22 PM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

You are jealous...via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.


What is your point that you keep repeating? The Lord summed up the old covenant requirements in the golden rule and the 2 great commands. He also told us to pray, fast, & give alms & reiterated living by the 10 commandments. He told us to confess our sins and take the Eucharist. He revealed the Beatitudes to us. The Church codified the faith the Lord gave us with the creed. The Acts, the epistles of the apostles and the Revelation of the NT flow from the Gospel. This is maintained in the pillar of the faith in the church whose witness is affected by its humanity for the good or worse. This is the summation of the Biblical faith. Are you some sort of gnostic?
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #525 on: September 22, 2010, 12:51:34 PM »
But I am the fool.

Don't insult yourself in that manner; However, if you were open and willing to allow Christ to carry your weakness, you may be surprised where that may take you.

Mark 8:34-39 and Mark 9:1 (NKJV)

Quote
34 When He had called the people to Himself,  with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38  For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."   1 And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.”

Alfred, you are not doing yourself or anyone else any favors by continuing your proselytizing.   :)


Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #526 on: September 22, 2010, 01:19:34 PM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

2 Peter 3:15"our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen."
That cuts too close to the bone for Mr. Persson. I have cited that scripture, not my own words, several times for proof of what we say, and what we have said since the time of the Apostles. But since it doesn't fit his ideas, he rejects these words of Scritpure.

He prefers to take upon himself a mantle he has woven himself, calling it the mantle of St. John, but "No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was." (Heb. 5:4). St. John, the son of Aaron, confered his mantle the Son of God when he baptized Him, as "it [was] proper for [this] to do this to fulfill all righteousness" (Mat. 3:15)

John 3:"22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized. 24 For John had not yet been thrown into prison.
25 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”
27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
4:1....the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples)"

Christ called His Apostles to wear this mantle and take this honor he placed upon them, (John 20:21) "So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”" (Acts 1:)all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen...4while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

The Apostles "sent for the presbyters of the Church" (Acts 20:17), to admonish them before their depature (I Peter )"12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance"  "I Peter5:1-2 The presbyters which are among you I exhort, who am also an presbyter, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, serving as bishops, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind."  (II Timothy 1:)"6Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands 77For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind...(11:)13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us." (Acts 20:28) "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you bishops. Be shepherds of the Church of God, which He bought with His own blood...32And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified...35I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive" [a verse not in the Gospel, but presured by Tradition]. Titus 1:5For this cause [the Apostles] left [the bishops] in Crete,"-and all the earth-"that [they] should set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain presbyters in every city, as [the Apostles] had appointed [the bishops]: 6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7For a bishop must be blameless"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13210.msg461145/topicseen.html#msg461145
In fact, so great is the episcopacy, the presbyters of Acts 15, that St. Peter, introduding himself as "an [note, btw: "a," not "the"] Apostle of Jesus Christ," nonetheless identifies himself as a "fellow presbyter" when he invokes himself as a witness of Christ and a partaker of His glory, to exhort his fellow presbyters, whom he identifies as the bishops (5:1-2), and the Apostle John, the disciple whom Christ loved, doesn't give his autority to his second and third epistles as neither the Disciple nor Apostle, but as "the presbyter."

"He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." Luke 10:16  You cannot have the Church's book without the Church.

Of course, you have the free will to preach or accept another Gospel.

The Church I know, so Christ I know and Paul I know, but who are you? You shouldn't wave the veil of Moses while invoking the name of Christ like a matador.  You can get hurt.
So the mantle of St. John is extended into the omophorios of the local bishop of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.
But since it doesn't fit Mr. Persson's ideas of his self calling, he rejects these words of Scritpure, and twists away.

He is jealous that we know what is taught in Scripture, "stand[ing] fast and hold[ing] the Traditions which [we] were taught, whether by word or [the Apostles'] epistle...to which He called [us] by [their] Gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thess. 2:14-15) via their Traditions are completely sure, and have a complete knowledge.  Via his self made, man made tradition he is completely confused, and doesn't have a clue. "he walks disorderly and not according to the Tradition which [we] received from [the Apostles]" II Thess. 3:6.  The Apostles heard correctly:"that there are some who walk among you in a disorderly manner, not working at all, but are busybodies." (II Thess. 3:11). And we, as true followers of the Apostles and the sheep of their successors the Orthodox bishops, follow the Apostle's admonission "brethren, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle,...walking disorderly....[not] stand[ing] fast and hold[ing] the Traditions which [were] taught, whether by word or epistle... note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

As St. James, the Apostle and Brother of God, first bishop and Patriarch of Jerusalem admonishes us in closing his witness "19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
As St. Jude the Apostle, the "brother of James," admonishes us "17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh."

But Mr. Persson will have to accept this Scripture to benefit from it, rather than rejecting God's good gifts offered by the hand of His Church, to receive the Word of God, and so he can heed what it says confident of its the truth, rather than his own destruction.
Only proves we cannot go far from the apostles, if we are to learn what they  believed.

Because what they received, what they taught, what they passed on, what we stand firm in, what raditions we hold which were taught by the Apostles, whether by word, or by letter (II Thessalonians 2:15), what we-remembering them in all things, receiving their praise-hold firm, what traditions, even as the Apostles delivered to us (I Corinthians 11:2), because THAT differs from what those who walketh disorderly millennia after, and not after the Tradition which he received of the Apostles-Or rather, such novelties differ from the 'Faith of the Apostles-because of that differnce we are to hide our eyes from the unbroken cloud of witness which surround the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, so we can don the veil of Moses and walk in the way of the Pharisees? So we can follow someone who not only has not seen the light of Christ, but refuses to behold the radience of God's glory and look in the face of Christ, the icon of the invisible God and the express image of His person, and see the Father? (John 14:9; 2Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3)?

No thank you.

Mat. 15:14  "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Or into hellfire, whose gates shall never, by the divine word of God the Word, prevail against the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.

2Cor. 4:4But even if our Gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, Who is the icon of God, should shine on them. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

So, for us who have received the Apostles, we withdraw, as the Apostles commanded, from those that walk disorderly, and from those who do not walk after the Tradition which were received of the Apostles. II Thessalonians 3:6.

Since Mr. Persson wears the veil of Moses, he is not able to see beyond it, not even able to see the identification in the OT of Samuel on this side of the veil between this world and the next. Yet he fancies himself a Dante, mapping out the next world as if he had insider information. But (Mat. 13:)"35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
      “ I will open My mouth in parables;
       I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world."
...All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,...(13:)9 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” 10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you [i.e. His Church, taught by the successors of the Apostles, the bishops] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given...33 Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”

The leaven of Apostolic dogma has risen in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which is all leavened and fills all the earth. But Mr Persson has not“take[n] heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees," (Mat. 16:6, 12) citing their Talmud here as elsewhere, and prefering their Masoretic Text, not heading the Apostles' warning (I Corin. 5:) that "6[his] glorying is not good...not know[ing] that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?" and that he should "7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that [he] may be a new lump." The Apostles are "indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit,"-having passed on the Spirit of prophecy in the laying on of their hands on the Orthodox Catholic bishops-"have already judged (as though [they] were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." "For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us" something the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church centers our year on but I fear Mr. Persson does not celebrate "8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." The invitation is open, but Mr. Persson chooses to reject Scripture and turn down the invitation. "8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is." Gal. 5.

29The Spirit told Philip [who, like the bishops, had the Apostles hand laid on him, Acts 6:5-6; II Timoty 1:6-7; Titus 1:5-6], "Go to that chariot and stay near it."

 30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

 31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?"

But Mr. Persson does not believe this Scripture.
 
He reads and does not believe what he reads, so he doesn't have a clue what the Bible says.

We read the Bible and believe what the Church which wrote, canonized and preserved the Bible says, and the Fathers who testified for the Church in explaining the Scripture, standng firm and holding fast to the Traditions taught by the Apostles, whether by word or letter (II Thess. 2:15), so we know what the Bible says.

With God all things are possible, but the man Alfred Persson kicks against the goads, trying to make it impossible with his man made tradition, making God's way difficult, holding fast to any crooked ways, putting every obstacle to God reigning in his heart as Sovereign...one of the many voices sent by those preaching another Gospel.

Paul we know, and Christ we know, but, as Marc and the rest of Christ's One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church ask "who are you again?"

But I am the fool.
But not Christ's.



Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #527 on: September 22, 2010, 02:28:27 PM »
Prayer for the dead accomplishes nothing. If saved, then they are in paradise awaiting resurrection, your prayer unneeded. If in Hades, their lot is unchangeable until the Day of Jesus, when only those not in the Lamb's book of life, are lost:


I have wasted time on worse. Thanks for your opinion. Since the Church thinks it is efficacious then I intend to continue. Who are you again?

Your question is irrelevant as I cited scripture, not myself, for proof of what I say.
The Bible is a collection of stories, not a collection of proof texts.
IOW, you just revealed that you're guilty of the very approach to Scripture that Dr. Witherington criticized in the interview I quoted a few days ago.

I missed that.

So to you the Bible is just fable...or stories having no relevance to doctrine?
You would do well to read what other people actually say rather than read what you want to see in what other people say.  IOW, stop putting words into my mouth! >:(
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 02:29:28 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #528 on: September 22, 2010, 02:32:26 PM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

You are jealous...
You're getting quite personal here, which borders on the ad hominem.  Not only does that distract from the real issue you should be addressing, it may also violate forum policy.

via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.
Pure conjecture with basis in nothing but your own personal judgment.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.


I'm with bogdan on this.  Several pages ago I took up with you the fact that you need to first prove the premise of sola scriptura before we will accept any argument you build on that premise.  You have not offered a satisfactory response yet.  Ad hominems and judgmental attacks on your opponents' praxis do not count as satisfactory responses.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 02:45:41 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #529 on: September 24, 2010, 11:02:52 AM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

You are jealous...
You're getting quite personal here, which borders on the ad hominem.  Not only does that distract from the real issue you should be addressing, it may also violate forum policy.

via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.
Pure conjecture with basis in nothing but your own personal judgment.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.


I'm with bogdan on this.  Several pages ago I took up with you the fact that you need to first prove the premise of sola scriptura before we will accept any argument you build on that premise.  You have not offered a satisfactory response yet.  Ad hominems and judgmental attacks on your opponents' praxis do not count as satisfactory responses.

I proved sola scriptura is the logical extension of sola verbum dei.

You failed to prove your traditions are the word of God.


If you proved that, then you disprove sola scriptura.

But we both believe the canon is closed, dispute about its content notwithstanding.

Neither of us believe your traditions, the fathers, and sayings of your church, are "the word of God."

Therefore I am consistent with sola verbum dei, and you are not.

Or do you suggest Christ and His apostles didn't teach sola verbum dei?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #530 on: September 24, 2010, 11:36:33 AM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

You are jealous...
You're getting quite personal here, which borders on the ad hominem.  Not only does that distract from the real issue you should be addressing, it may also violate forum policy.

via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.
Pure conjecture with basis in nothing but your own personal judgment.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.


I'm with bogdan on this.  Several pages ago I took up with you the fact that you need to first prove the premise of sola scriptura before we will accept any argument you build on that premise.  You have not offered a satisfactory response yet.  Ad hominems and judgmental attacks on your opponents' praxis do not count as satisfactory responses.

I proved sola scriptura is the logical extension of sola verbum dei.

You failed to prove your traditions are the word of God.


If you proved that, then you disprove sola scriptura.

But we both believe the canon is closed, dispute about its content notwithstanding.

Neither of us believe your traditions, the fathers, and sayings of your church, are "the word of God."

Therefore I am consistent with sola verbum dei, and you are not.

Or do you suggest Christ and His apostles didn't teach sola verbum dei?
So you claim sola scriptura, we can do that too & even if we do, you will just say that is not what the word of God (as per your perception) says. Your whole apparatus is a egg vs. chicken debate in which you will always believe to know the truth.
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #531 on: September 24, 2010, 11:55:36 AM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

You are jealous...via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.



Show me where the phrase "scripture alone" is found in the Bible or repent of your false witness.

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #532 on: September 24, 2010, 12:18:28 PM »
Or do you suggest Christ and His apostles didn't teach sola verbum dei?
Alfred, I asked you at least once before to explain "sola verbum dei". Whoever invented that phrase failed Latin 101. Please explain the grammar to me if I am mistaken about its incorrectness. Please tell me when in history this phrase first appeared. It is new to me. Let me remind you that you are the one who introduced it into the discussion, and therefore it falls on you to explain your own words.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #533 on: September 24, 2010, 01:41:01 PM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

You are jealous...
You're getting quite personal here, which borders on the ad hominem.  Not only does that distract from the real issue you should be addressing, it may also violate forum policy.

via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.
Pure conjecture with basis in nothing but your own personal judgment.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.


I'm with bogdan on this.  Several pages ago I took up with you the fact that you need to first prove the premise of sola scriptura before we will accept any argument you build on that premise.  You have not offered a satisfactory response yet.  Ad hominems and judgmental attacks on your opponents' praxis do not count as satisfactory responses.

I proved sola scriptura is the logical extension of sola verbum dei.
You didn't convince us, hence you proved nothing.

You failed to prove your traditions are the word of God.
The burden of proof is not on me to do so, since I'm not trying to prove that our traditions ARE the word of God--you're the only person in this argument who doesn't believe they are.  You're the one attacking our traditions, something everyone else here accepts, so the burden of proof is on you to prove that our traditions are NOT the word of God.  For all the bluster you've shown here, you haven't convinced us of this.  Therefore, you have proven nothing.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2010, 01:41:51 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #534 on: September 24, 2010, 03:20:59 PM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

You are jealous...
You're getting quite personal here, which borders on the ad hominem.  Not only does that distract from the real issue you should be addressing, it may also violate forum policy.

via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.
Pure conjecture with basis in nothing but your own personal judgment.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.


I'm with bogdan on this.  Several pages ago I took up with you the fact that you need to first prove the premise of sola scriptura before we will accept any argument you build on that premise.  You have not offered a satisfactory response yet.  Ad hominems and judgmental attacks on your opponents' praxis do not count as satisfactory responses.

I proved sola scriptura is the logical extension of sola verbum dei.

You failed to prove your traditions are the word of God.


If you proved that, then you disprove sola scriptura.

But we both believe the canon is closed, dispute about its content notwithstanding.

Neither of us believe your traditions, the fathers, and sayings of your church, are "the word of God."

Therefore I am consistent with sola verbum dei, and you are not.

Or do you suggest Christ and His apostles didn't teach sola verbum dei?
In the Scritpures they do not teach it

Mat. 2:23 And he [St. Joseph the Betrotherd] came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, “He shall be called a Nazarene.”

The Books of the Prophets, let alone the Masoretic Text, do not record any such prophecy. But Tradition (perhaps based on Isa 11:1,  Judge 13:5-7, Amos 2:11) evidently did. And Christ accepted the Tradition to fulfill it, and the Apostles did to record it.

Mat. 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

Jesus recognized the authority of "Moses seat" which had been passed down in the Sanhendrin, although the OT does not establish any office of "Moses seat" nor the Sanhendrin which administered it (see Acts). Tradition, however, had, and passed it down by laying on of hands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semikha
One of the proofs of Our Lord's recognition of this authority I"ve already meationed, His participation in the Synagogue:
I perceive the Orthodox have violated a very important commandment of God, that you not add to God's word human tradition:

Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

5 “But you shall seek the place where the LORD your God chooses, out of all your tribes, to put His name for His dwelling place; and there you shall go." Deu 12:5."

Where is the command for the synagogues in Nazareth, around Galilee and Judea and in Thessalonika and the rest of the Diaspora?

The Orthodox view of scripture merged as one into tradition isn't new׃

That's the idea of holding fast to the Traditions the Apostles taught. Stick to the old, tried and true, and not the new innovations, like sola scriptura.

Quote
3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
 4 "For God commanded, saying,`Honor your father and your mother'; and,`He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'
 5 "But you say,`Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"--
 6 `then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 (Mat 15:3-9 NKJ)

Luke 4:14 Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region. 15 And He taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.   16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

Here we see Christ violating a very important commandment of God, that you not add to God's word human tradition, the synagogue service, which has no warrent in your Old Testament.

Here we see St. Paul imitating Christ's violation of a very important commandment of God, that you not add to God's word human tradition, like the synagogue service:

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.”

We continue to imitate St. Paul and the Apostles in Christ's violation of a very important commandment of God, that you not add to God's word human tradition, like the synagogue service, which the Church incorporated as the Liturgy of the Word/Cathecumens in the Divine Liturgy, during which the person authorized by apostolic succession teaches and reasons from the Scriptures, preaching the Christ whose violation of the commandment of God in the synagogue of Nazareth we just celebrated on September 1 (Ecclesiatical New Year, for which Luke 4 is the Gospel reading).

Again, you are the one confused, refusing to imitate the Apostles.

I Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
Quote
The Old Testament says nothing about any movement of the rock that Moses struck to provide water for the Israelites (Ex. 17:1-7, Num. 20:2-13), but in rabbinic Tradition the rock actually followed them on their journey through the wilderness. In a further development, another Tradition, given by Philo, even equates this rock with preexistent Wisdom: "For the flinty rock is the Wisdom of God, which he marked off highest and chiefest from his powers, and from which he satisfies the thirsty souls that love God."
It seems that Paul is drawing on this Tradition, but he elevates it to even a higher level. Christ himself was the Rock who provided for the people of Israel, which in turn makes their rebellion all the more heinous (1 Cor. 10:5ff.). Paul does not hesitate to draw on stock oral Tradition to illustrate and enhance his presentation of the Gospel. The details provided in these Traditions preserved under the Old Covenant shed fresh light on the preparation that God made through Israel for the building of his Church and on the characteristics of the Christian sacraments.
http://www.chnetwork.org/journals/sola/sola8.htm

The Book of Enoch records Tradition current at the time of our Lord and His Apostles, among them these in its following verses:
I Enoch 1:9 And behold! He comes with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him....21:1 And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. 2. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. 3. And there I saw seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. 4. Then I said: 'For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' 5. Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? 6. These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.' 7. And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. 8. Then I said: 'How fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!' 9. Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?' And I answered: 'Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.' 10. And he said unto me: 'This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.'..60:8 where [Noah's] my grandfather [i.e. Enoch] was taken up, the seventh from Adam, the first man whom the Lord of Spirits created.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe004.htm

The Fathers tell us that the Jews rejected the Book of Enoch because it contained prophecies of Christ. Evidently the Apostles agreed it did as well, and used it, whether St. Peter using the image of Enoch as a type of Christ harrowing hell and ascending:
II Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

or St. Jude quoting from it:14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” St. Jude also refers to Tradition about Moses death to argue how the Christian should behave: 8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.  

Likewise St. Paul gets the names of the magicians Jannes and Jambres from tradition (2 Tim. 3:8), and St James gets the example of Elijah as man of prayer (5:17) from tradition, as 1 Kgs. 17 says noting about Elijah praying.

But if you don't want to follow the example Christ and His Apostles set in Scriptures, that is your problem.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #535 on: September 24, 2010, 05:27:38 PM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

You are jealous...
You're getting quite personal here, which borders on the ad hominem.  Not only does that distract from the real issue you should be addressing, it may also violate forum policy.

via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.
Pure conjecture with basis in nothing but your own personal judgment.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.


I'm with bogdan on this.  Several pages ago I took up with you the fact that you need to first prove the premise of sola scriptura before we will accept any argument you build on that premise.  You have not offered a satisfactory response yet.  Ad hominems and judgmental attacks on your opponents' praxis do not count as satisfactory responses.

I proved sola scriptura is the logical extension of sola verbum dei.
You didn't convince us, hence you proved nothing.

You failed to prove your traditions are the word of God.
The burden of proof is not on me to do so, since I'm not trying to prove that our traditions ARE the word of God--you're the only person in this argument who doesn't believe they are.  You're the one attacking our traditions, something everyone else here accepts, so the burden of proof is on you to prove that our traditions are NOT the word of God.  For all the bluster you've shown here, you haven't convinced us of this.  Therefore, you have proven nothing.

Incorrect as apostolic doctrine defines the word of God as coming TO the church, not FROM it:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:36-40 NKJ)

This refutes any and all claim the word of God is channeled through the church.

In near context Paul refers to the inspired teaching and tongues of the church, therefore these ARE NOT the "word of God."

Your church's traditions etc, are NOT the word of God according to Paul.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #536 on: September 24, 2010, 05:46:10 PM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

You are jealous...
You're getting quite personal here, which borders on the ad hominem.  Not only does that distract from the real issue you should be addressing, it may also violate forum policy.

via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.
Pure conjecture with basis in nothing but your own personal judgment.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.


I'm with bogdan on this.  Several pages ago I took up with you the fact that you need to first prove the premise of sola scriptura before we will accept any argument you build on that premise.  You have not offered a satisfactory response yet.  Ad hominems and judgmental attacks on your opponents' praxis do not count as satisfactory responses.

I proved sola scriptura is the logical extension of sola verbum dei.
You didn't convince us, hence you proved nothing.

You failed to prove your traditions are the word of God.
The burden of proof is not on me to do so, since I'm not trying to prove that our traditions ARE the word of God--you're the only person in this argument who doesn't believe they are.  You're the one attacking our traditions, something everyone else here accepts, so the burden of proof is on you to prove that our traditions are NOT the word of God.  For all the bluster you've shown here, you haven't convinced us of this.  Therefore, you have proven nothing.

Incorrect as apostolic doctrine defines the word of God as coming TO the church, not FROM it:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:36-40 NKJ)

This refutes any and all claim the word of God is channeled through the church.

In near context Paul refers to the inspired teaching and tongues of the church, therefore these ARE NOT the "word of God."

Your church's traditions etc, are NOT the word of God according to Paul.
Paul Persson?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #537 on: September 24, 2010, 05:59:00 PM »
Incorrect as apostolic doctrine defines the word of God as coming TO the church, not FROM it:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

Have you acknowledged that the things you write to us on this forum are the commandments of the Lord?

38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Applicable to a lot of people, starting with myself.

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:36-40 NKJ)

That is the problem with proof-texting; context is lost.

This refutes any and all claim the word of God is channeled through the church.

That is your opinion which we have summarily rejected and repudiated.

In near context Paul refers to the inspired teaching and tongues of the church, therefore these ARE NOT the "word of God."

Your church's traditions etc, are NOT the word of God according to Paul.

When are you going to give up this jousting at windmills?   ???

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #538 on: September 24, 2010, 06:12:09 PM »
Incorrect as apostolic doctrine defines the word of God as coming TO the church, not FROM it:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

Have you acknowledged that the things you write to us on this forum are the commandments of the Lord?

38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Applicable to a lot of people, starting with myself.

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 (1Co 14:36-40 NKJ)

That is the problem with proof-texting; context is lost.

This refutes any and all claim the word of God is channeled through the church.

That is your opinion which we have summarily rejected and repudiated.

In near context Paul refers to the inspired teaching and tongues of the church, therefore these ARE NOT the "word of God."

Your church's traditions etc, are NOT the word of God according to Paul.

When are you going to give up this jousting at windmills?   ???

Why bother responding if you won't address my point.

Its simple.

Paul told the Corinthians their tongues prophecy knowledge was NOT the word of God.

In other words, Paul told the Corinthians their traditions, inspired as they may be, are NOT the word of God.

Therefore neither are yours.


Christ and His apostles commanded obedience to the Word of God only.

When brought before the Magisterium, Peter, speaking for all the apostles, said he would not obey their traditions, he would obey only the Word of God:

27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
 28 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!"
 29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
 (Act 5:27-29 NKJ)




For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #539 on: September 24, 2010, 07:51:57 PM »
Alfred, remember several pages back, when we were talking about Sola Scriptura? You still haven't proven that is a true doctrine.

We don't even accept your premise, so any arguments based on the premise of Sola Scriptura are wasted effort on your part. You need to convince us your premise is valid before you can start attacking our specific beliefs.

You are jealous...
You're getting quite personal here, which borders on the ad hominem.  Not only does that distract from the real issue you should be addressing, it may also violate forum policy.

via sola scriptura I know what is taught in scripture.

Via your tradition you are completely confused, and don't have a clue.
Pure conjecture with basis in nothing but your own personal judgment.

An analogy:

I read and believe what I read, so I know what the Bible says.

You read and believe what the church and fathers say, so don't have a clue what the Bible says.

But I am the fool.


I'm with bogdan on this.  Several pages ago I took up with you the fact that you need to first prove the premise of sola scriptura before we will accept any argument you build on that premise.  You have not offered a satisfactory response yet.  Ad hominems and judgmental attacks on your opponents' praxis do not count as satisfactory responses.

I proved sola scriptura is the logical extension of sola verbum dei.
You didn't convince us, hence you proved nothing.

You failed to prove your traditions are the word of God.
The burden of proof is not on me to do so, since I'm not trying to prove that our traditions ARE the word of God--you're the only person in this argument who doesn't believe they are.  You're the one attacking our traditions, something everyone else here accepts, so the burden of proof is on you to prove that our traditions are NOT the word of God.  For all the bluster you've shown here, you haven't convinced us of this.  Therefore, you have proven nothing.

Incorrect
What's incorrect?  My assertion that you have proven nothing?  My assertion that the burden is on you to provide enough evidence for your arguments that we should believe you?  I'm no longer talking about Tradition here.  I'm talking about what you have achieved or failed to achieve in this debate.
Not all who wander are lost.