Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 195605 times)

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #450 on: September 14, 2010, 04:07:34 PM »
Spirits do disguise themselves as the departed, to deceive, as the spirit who pretended to be Samuel did to Saul. God wouldn't answer Saul by prophets (28:15) so its inconsistent this spirit was actually Samuel the prophet. Moreover the prophecy was vague (factually wrong)  and promised Saul would be with Samuel, implying Saul's rebellion wouldn't be punished in hell...typical of demonic message.
Samuel was in hell. You don't know your Bible.

The Bible says "the woman saw Samuel," "Then Saul knew it was Samuel," "Samuel said." That you do not believe the Bible is a problem you will have to deal with.

If the Orthodox believe the righteous dead are in hell, they are more off than I supposed. Paradise is in  third heaven, above the earth:

You are sidestepping the issue: you made a statement, and plain scripture proved you wrong.

You also don't know your scripture.  Before the descent into Hell, no one was in heaven. Ephesians 4:8 Therefore He says:

      “ When He ascended on high,
      He led captivity captive,
      And gave gifts to men.”

 9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)


[Christ's descent into hell, His "being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1Pe 3:18-19 ASV) does not rule out a brief appearance in third heaven first, before going to hell to save sinners. ]
Why should we add the tradition of the man Alfred Persson to the plain text of scripture?

 
Samuel was not in hell, in the lower part of Sheol or Hades, he was in the upper part of Sheol, which is in Third heaven:
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
 (Rev 6:9-11 NKJ)

When St. John saw heaven, Holy Samuel was there. But that is not where he was when Saul called on him. I Kingdoms/Samuel 28:And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel;

It is NOT Orthodox (=right-thinking) to believe Satan's children have power over God's children in death.
Heb. 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.
Rom. 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

If you do not believe scripture, that's your problem.
It is impossible God allowed a witch disturb Samuel's rest, that is why the witch was surprised by the appearance of an entity claiming to be Samuel:

The entity claims no such thing. The Bible claims it was Samuel.  If you don't believe scripture, that's your problem.


 
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!"
 13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit(elohiym) ascending out of the earth."
 (1Sa 28:12-13 NKJ)

She knew it was not Samuel...she calls it a "god" (elohiym) which is NOT a human soul.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods (elohiyim)”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken).
So you don't believe that the word of God came to Samuel, or you believe it can be broken.  If you don't believe Scripture (in particular Our Lord's words of the literal Gospel Truth), that's your problem.

 
And this exegesis is confirmed when the "god" says the LORD will not answer Saul...therefore neither would the real Samuel, he would not prophesy his own thoughts to Saul, a real prophet of God does not do that EVER.
Well the Bible says Samuel did just that. The Bible also says Samuel was a real prophet of God.  But if you don't believe Scripture, that's your problem.

First Descended from paradise.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #451 on: September 14, 2010, 05:05:29 PM »
Does a sentence fragment count?  ???



This sketch is too silly.

It's about time for a sleeping kitten!  :)





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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #452 on: September 14, 2010, 05:18:39 PM »
Spirits do disguise themselves as the departed, to deceive, as the spirit who pretended to be Samuel did to Saul. God wouldn't answer Saul by prophets (28:15) so its inconsistent this spirit was actually Samuel the prophet. Moreover the prophecy was vague (factually wrong)  and promised Saul would be with Samuel, implying Saul's rebellion wouldn't be punished in hell...typical of demonic message.
Samuel was in hell. You don't know your Bible.

The Bible says "the woman saw Samuel," "Then Saul knew it was Samuel," "Samuel said." That you do not believe the Bible is a problem you will have to deal with.

If the Orthodox believe the righteous dead are in hell, they are more off than I supposed. Paradise is in  third heaven, above the earth:

You are sidestepping the issue: you made a statement, and plain scripture proved you wrong.

You also don't know your scripture.  Before the descent into Hell, no one was in heaven. Ephesians 4:8 Therefore He says:

      “ When He ascended on high,
      He led captivity captive,
      And gave gifts to men.”

 9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)


[Christ's descent into hell, His "being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1Pe 3:18-19 ASV) does not rule out a brief appearance in third heaven first, before going to hell to save sinners. ]
Why should we add the tradition of the man Alfred Persson to the plain text of scripture?

 
Samuel was not in hell, in the lower part of Sheol or Hades, he was in the upper part of Sheol, which is in Third heaven:
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
 (Rev 6:9-11 NKJ)

When St. John saw heaven, Holy Samuel was there. But that is not where he was when Saul called on him. I Kingdoms/Samuel 28:And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel;

It is NOT Orthodox (=right-thinking) to believe Satan's children have power over God's children in death.
Heb. 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.
Rom. 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

If you do not believe scripture, that's your problem.
It is impossible God allowed a witch disturb Samuel's rest, that is why the witch was surprised by the appearance of an entity claiming to be Samuel:

The entity claims no such thing. The Bible claims it was Samuel.  If you don't believe scripture, that's your problem.


 
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!"
 13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit(elohiym) ascending out of the earth."
 (1Sa 28:12-13 NKJ)

She knew it was not Samuel...she calls it a "god" (elohiym) which is NOT a human soul.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods (elohiyim)”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken).
So you don't believe that the word of God came to Samuel, or you believe it can be broken.  If you don't believe Scripture (in particular Our Lord's words of the literal Gospel Truth), that's your problem.

 
And this exegesis is confirmed when the "god" says the LORD will not answer Saul...therefore neither would the real Samuel, he would not prophesy his own thoughts to Saul, a real prophet of God does not do that EVER.
Well the Bible says Samuel did just that. The Bible also says Samuel was a real prophet of God.  But if you don't believe Scripture, that's your problem.

First Descended from paradise.
The visible icon of the invisible God? Yes we are aware of that. Col. 1:15-23.

That is while everyone awaited Him in Hell.  
2 Corin. 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same icon from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.  4:1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the Icon of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 05:28:28 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #453 on: September 14, 2010, 05:52:15 PM »
Wow, I have been away for over a week & the instigator of this thread is still trying to find some silver bullet to prove himself right. He keeps going on & on with his heresy; he cannot tell me what is so allegedly unbiblical about the core requirements of our faith by knowing Jesus Christ as Lord & savior, the creed, the 2 great commands, the golden rule, following the 10 commandments, prayer according to the commands & the great commission, fasting, alms giving, private confession, confession with our priest as witness, & partaking of the Eucharist. Tell us what is allegedly unbiblical re these since they all come from God? Salvation by grace is what God has given us & is according to His word as I have just listed. These are not novelties & I can find them in any King James Bible I can buy in a dollar store in the USA. These are the Orthodox faith & I believe many non Orthodox Christians  follow these in an implicit sense which will be perfected in their salvation that God knows as He (not you) works His will. So what do you keep rambling on about?
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #454 on: September 14, 2010, 06:03:01 PM »
Spirits do disguise themselves as the departed, to deceive, as the spirit who pretended to be Samuel did to Saul. God wouldn't answer Saul by prophets (28:15) so its inconsistent this spirit was actually Samuel the prophet. Moreover the prophecy was vague (factually wrong)  and promised Saul would be with Samuel, implying Saul's rebellion wouldn't be punished in hell...typical of demonic message.
Samuel was in hell. You don't know your Bible.

The Bible says "the woman saw Samuel," "Then Saul knew it was Samuel," "Samuel said." That you do not believe the Bible is a problem you will have to deal with.

If the Orthodox believe the righteous dead are in hell, they are more off than I supposed. Paradise is in  third heaven, above the earth:

You are sidestepping the issue: you made a statement, and plain scripture proved you wrong.

You also don't know your scripture.  Before the descent into Hell, no one was in heaven. Ephesians 4:8 Therefore He says:

      “ When He ascended on high,
      He led captivity captive,
      And gave gifts to men.”

 9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)


[Christ's descent into hell, His "being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1Pe 3:18-19 ASV) does not rule out a brief appearance in third heaven first, before going to hell to save sinners. ]
Why should we add the tradition of the man Alfred Persson to the plain text of scripture?

 
Samuel was not in hell, in the lower part of Sheol or Hades, he was in the upper part of Sheol, which is in Third heaven:
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
 (Rev 6:9-11 NKJ)

When St. John saw heaven, Holy Samuel was there. But that is not where he was when Saul called on him. I Kingdoms/Samuel 28:And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel;

It is NOT Orthodox (=right-thinking) to believe Satan's children have power over God's children in death.
Heb. 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.
Rom. 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

If you do not believe scripture, that's your problem.
It is impossible God allowed a witch disturb Samuel's rest, that is why the witch was surprised by the appearance of an entity claiming to be Samuel:

The entity claims no such thing. The Bible claims it was Samuel.  If you don't believe scripture, that's your problem.


 
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!"
 13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit(elohiym) ascending out of the earth."
 (1Sa 28:12-13 NKJ)

She knew it was not Samuel...she calls it a "god" (elohiym) which is NOT a human soul.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods (elohiyim)”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken).
So you don't believe that the word of God came to Samuel, or you believe it can be broken.  If you don't believe Scripture (in particular Our Lord's words of the literal Gospel Truth), that's your problem.

 
And this exegesis is confirmed when the "god" says the LORD will not answer Saul...therefore neither would the real Samuel, he would not prophesy his own thoughts to Saul, a real prophet of God does not do that EVER.
Well the Bible says Samuel did just that. The Bible also says Samuel was a real prophet of God.  But if you don't believe Scripture, that's your problem.


Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #455 on: September 14, 2010, 06:44:53 PM »
 :D Well done, Bogdan. 

When the Lord gave the Commandments to the people of Israel, he enjoined upon them to not make images of things that were in the water, or in the Earth beneath, and so forth. He is abjuring them from worshiping other gods. The Egyptian gods had the heads of animals that lived in the water (a hippopotamus), or in the underworld (a jackal who weighed the hearts of people after they died), etc. In other words, he's telling them not to bring with them the paganism of the culture they just left. "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt." Egypt is the example they'd most recently remember. Don't mess with this stuff, you don't need it. The poor foolish people kind of forgot that, with the golden calf, but Moses didn't let them get away with that for long.   :)  Pagan rulers in other countries and cultures had a bad habit of declaring themselves to be gods, or descendants from gods, or some such, and of having statues made of themselves. Now that's idolatry. That's a textbook case.

Looking at or bowing or kissing something don't necessarily constitute worship of something, though. Everyone who's been to Washington, DC has probably seen the statue of Abraham Lincoln. I sure did, I've been to DC twice. Now, does anybody think that all those tourists who get their pictures taken in front of ol' Abe are really worshiping him?  ;) 

Has anyone ever seen the way college football players and professional athletes treat sports trophies? Look at the way they kiss and carry the metal trophies or awards that they win. Again, not worship.

If you've ever kept a photograph of a loved one in your wallet, or a giant photo on the mantel, and looked at it from time to time, and gave it a little kiss... did you think that person was God? I don't imagine so.

As for the Ark of the Covenant, well, I think ialmisry or someone else has already posted about it in this thread. I won't duplicate those posts. If Alfred questions the validity of the Ark, however, he himself may look it up in Scripture.

The people of this church claim to have the original Ark of the Covenant on the premises. He may wish to get in touch with them if he wishes to know more.

If he questions the wisdom of the One Who commissioned the Ark, though, that's another matter.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #456 on: September 15, 2010, 09:12:57 AM »

Quote
If the Orthodox believe the righteous dead are in hell, they are more off than I supposed. Paradise is in  third heaven, above the earth:

You are sidestepping the issue: you made a statement, and plain scripture proved you wrong.

You also don't know your scripture.  Before the descent into Hell, no one was in heaven. Ephesians 4:8 Therefore He says:

      “ When He ascended on high,
      He led captivity captive,
      And gave gifts to men.”

 9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)


So you believe no one was in third heaven, which is where paradise is according to apostolic doctrine (2 Cor 12:2,4), and you think Eph 4:8 says that?

So Christ lied when he told the thief they both would be in paradise that day:
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Luk 23:43 NKJ)

Jesus really meant after three days in hell they would both ascend? I do not see that in His words at all.

Paul locates paradise in Third heaven (2 Cor 12:2, 4), Jesus didn't change the location of paradise.

When Jesus went down into hell He led captives in His train into paradise, He did not relocate paradise:

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
 9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Eph 4:8-10 NKJ)


Your claim paradise was empty until Christ did this, contradicts the Bible:

When the Old Testament righteous died, they were gathered to their people, here God is speaking to Moses:
13 "And when you have seen it, you also shall be gathered to your people, as Aaron your brother was gathered. (Num 27:13 NKJ)

At the transfiguration, Jesus saw Moses and Elijah who was taken up into heaven:
11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
 12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, "My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!" So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces.
 (2Ki 2:11-12 NKJ)

4 And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus. (Mar 9:4 NKJ)

So we are to believe Elijah descended from heaven, but Moses rose up from the earth? How then was Moses gathered to his people, surely Elijah was one of his people and vice versa.

Moreover, Paul's eschatology is similar to the Pharisees:

""Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!" (Act 23:6 NKJ)

The ancient Jews saw Gan Eden, Paradise, as being in heaven, not under the earth:

"The sun is red in the morning and the evening---in the morning because it passes over (and catches the reflection of) the roses of Gan Eden, and in the evening because it passes over the entrance of Gehinnom' (Baba Bathra 84a)."-A. Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, p. 380 (Schocken Books, NY, 1995).

In the Talmud the belief paradise is in heaven and the righteous dead went there is clear. A. Cohen summarizes the Rabbinic exegesis, you cannot read this and believe they thought the righteous dead were under the earth:


"There are seven classes of righteous in Gan Eden, one higher than the other. The first class is alluded to in the text, "Surely the righteous shall give thanks unto Thy name; the upright shall dwell in Thy Presence" (Ps cxl. 13). The second is alluded to in, "Blessed is the man whom Thou choosest and causest to approach that he may dwell in Thy courts" (ibid.) The third is alluded to in, "Blessed are they that dwell in Thy house (ibid. lxxxiv.4). The fourth is alluded to in, "Lord, who shall sojourn in Thy tabernacle?" (ibid xv. 1). The fifth is alluded to in, "Who shall dwell in Thy holy hill?" (Ibid.). The sixth is alluded to in, "Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord?" (ibid xxiv. 3), and the seventh in, "Who shall stand in HIs Holy place?" (ibid.)' Sifre Deut sect. 10; 67a)...
Another version reads: 'Seven classes will stand before the Holy One, blessed be He, in the Hereafter. Which is the highest of them to receive the presence of the Shechinah? It is the class of the upright; as itis said, "The upright shall behold their face" (Ps. xi. 7). It is not written "His face" but "their face," i.e., the presence of the Shechinah and His retinue. the first class sits in the company of the King and beholds His presence; as it is said, "The upright dwell in Thy presence." The second dwells in the house of the King; as it is said, "Blessed are they that dwell in Thy house." The third ascends the hill to meet the King, as it is said, "Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord?" The fourth is in the court of the King; as it is said, "Happy is the man whom Thou choosest and causest to approach that he may dwell in Thy courts." The fifth is in the Tabernacle of the King; as it is said, "Lord, who shall sojourn in Thy tabernacle?" The sixth is in the holy hill of the King; as it is said, "Who shall dwell in Thy holy hill?" The seventh is in the place of the King; as it is said, "Who shall stand in His holy place?"'(Midrash to Ps. xi. 7; 51a.)-Ibid, p. 384.

When Christ said Dives had to lift up his eyes to see Lazarus and Abraham, and says there is a great gulf separating the two realms, its clear the angels carried Lazarus to heaven, not a place under the earth:

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
 25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
 26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
 (Luk 16:22-26 NKJ)

Lazarus was gathered to his people, the rich man was not. Gravity pulled the rich man down to his appointed place, but an angel was sent to gather Lazarus lest gravity take him down into the earth also.

Christ spoke this parable to the Pharisees:


14 Now the Pharisees...15 And He said to them... (Luk 16:14-15 NKJ)

They would have understood it describing the after life quite literally.

Therefore the Orthodox are wrong about where the righteous dead went before Christ's descent into Hades...scripture clearly puts them in heaven as Christ's words to the thief, His parable about the Rich man in Hades, and the OT texts cited by the Rabbis in the Talmud quote above, prove.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 09:31:08 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #457 on: September 15, 2010, 01:37:05 PM »
Is this thread really still going on?
Look, Alfred, I have great relationships with some Protestant Christians and one of them is my best friend. They simply don't do what you are doin? You are becoming a characiture of Protestantism. Do you really think your approach is going to "save" any of the people in this forum? Especially considering the fact that most here have a solid understanding of theology and Church history?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #458 on: September 15, 2010, 01:44:18 PM »
Papist, lol!  yes, this seems to be one of these threads that will continue "now and ever and unto the agaes of ages, Amen!" ;)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #459 on: September 15, 2010, 01:47:56 PM »
and oops, yes, I meant "ages"!  Sorry, I'm sitting at a coffee shop writing all my posts from my cell phone - very proud that I just biked 10 miles from home, my personal best so far!

Alfred, how about starting a thread about something you LIKE and AGREE with the Orthodox about?  There must be something.

Meanwhile, have a blessed day! :)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #460 on: September 15, 2010, 01:51:57 PM »
Papist, lol!  yes, this seems to be one of these threads that will continue "now and ever and unto the agaes of ages, Amen!" ;)
AMEN! lol. :) I actually heard that being chanted in my head as I read it.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 01:57:32 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #461 on: September 15, 2010, 01:53:29 PM »

Alfred, how about starting a thread about something you LIKE and AGREE with the Orthodox about?  There must be something.

This would be a good idea. I have actually thought about starting one for Catholics and Orthodox but I realize it would just disintegrate into "Romanists [i.e. that vile constantinople-sacking-icon-stealing-ecumenial-Pope-worshiping-hoard] are graceless heretics and the Pope is the Antichrist." LOL ;)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 01:56:34 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #462 on: September 15, 2010, 02:06:17 PM »

Quote
If the Orthodox believe the righteous dead are in hell, they are more off than I supposed. Paradise is in  third heaven, above the earth:

You are sidestepping the issue: you made a statement, and plain scripture proved you wrong.

You also don't know your scripture.  Before the descent into Hell, no one was in heaven. Ephesians 4:8 Therefore He says:

      “ When He ascended on high,
      He led captivity captive,
      And gave gifts to men.”

 9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)


So you believe no one was in third heaven, which is where paradise is according to apostolic doctrine (2 Cor 12:2,4), and you think Eph 4:8 says that?

So Christ lied when he told the thief they both would be in paradise that day:
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Luk 23:43 NKJ)

Jesus really meant after three days in hell they would both ascend? I do not see that in His words at all.

Paul locates paradise in Third heaven (2 Cor 12:2, 4), Jesus didn't change the location of paradise.

When Jesus went down into hell He led captives in His train into paradise, He did not relocate paradise:

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
 9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Eph 4:8-10 NKJ)


Your claim paradise was empty until Christ did this, contradicts the Bible:

When the Old Testament righteous died, they were gathered to their people, here God is speaking to Moses:
13 "And when you have seen it, you also shall be gathered to your people, as Aaron your brother was gathered. (Num 27:13 NKJ)

At the transfiguration, Jesus saw Moses and Elijah who was taken up into heaven:
11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
 12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, "My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!" So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces.
 (2Ki 2:11-12 NKJ)

4 And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus. (Mar 9:4 NKJ)

So we are to believe Elijah descended from heaven, but Moses rose up from the earth? How then was Moses gathered to his people, surely Elijah was one of his people and vice versa.

Moreover, Paul's eschatology is similar to the Pharisees:

""Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!" (Act 23:6 NKJ)

The ancient Jews saw Gan Eden, Paradise, as being in heaven, not under the earth:

"The sun is red in the morning and the evening---in the morning because it passes over (and catches the reflection of) the roses of Gan Eden, and in the evening because it passes over the entrance of Gehinnom' (Baba Bathra 84a)."-A. Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, p. 380 (Schocken Books, NY, 1995).

In the Talmud the belief paradise is in heaven and the righteous dead went there is clear. A. Cohen summarizes the Rabbinic exegesis, you cannot read this and believe they thought the righteous dead were under the earth:


"There are seven classes of righteous in Gan Eden, one higher than the other. The first class is alluded to in the text, "Surely the righteous shall give thanks unto Thy name; the upright shall dwell in Thy Presence" (Ps cxl. 13). The second is alluded to in, "Blessed is the man whom Thou choosest and causest to approach that he may dwell in Thy courts" (ibid.) The third is alluded to in, "Blessed are they that dwell in Thy house (ibid. lxxxiv.4). The fourth is alluded to in, "Lord, who shall sojourn in Thy tabernacle?" (ibid xv. 1). The fifth is alluded to in, "Who shall dwell in Thy holy hill?" (Ibid.). The sixth is alluded to in, "Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord?" (ibid xxiv. 3), and the seventh in, "Who shall stand in HIs Holy place?" (ibid.)' Sifre Deut sect. 10; 67a)...
Another version reads: 'Seven classes will stand before the Holy One, blessed be He, in the Hereafter. Which is the highest of them to receive the presence of the Shechinah? It is the class of the upright; as itis said, "The upright shall behold their face" (Ps. xi. 7). It is not written "His face" but "their face," i.e., the presence of the Shechinah and His retinue. the first class sits in the company of the King and beholds His presence; as it is said, "The upright dwell in Thy presence." The second dwells in the house of the King; as it is said, "Blessed are they that dwell in Thy house." The third ascends the hill to meet the King, as it is said, "Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord?" The fourth is in the court of the King; as it is said, "Happy is the man whom Thou choosest and causest to approach that he may dwell in Thy courts." The fifth is in the Tabernacle of the King; as it is said, "Lord, who shall sojourn in Thy tabernacle?" The sixth is in the holy hill of the King; as it is said, "Who shall dwell in Thy holy hill?" The seventh is in the place of the King; as it is said, "Who shall stand in His holy place?"'(Midrash to Ps. xi. 7; 51a.)-Ibid, p. 384.

When Christ said Dives had to lift up his eyes to see Lazarus and Abraham, and says there is a great gulf separating the two realms, its clear the angels carried Lazarus to heaven, not a place under the earth:

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
 25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
 26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
 (Luk 16:22-26 NKJ)

Lazarus was gathered to his people, the rich man was not. Gravity pulled the rich man down to his appointed place, but an angel was sent to gather Lazarus lest gravity take him down into the earth also.

Christ spoke this parable to the Pharisees:


14 Now the Pharisees...15 And He said to them... (Luk 16:14-15 NKJ)

They would have understood it describing the after life quite literally.

Therefore the Orthodox are wrong about where the righteous dead went before Christ's descent into Hades...scripture clearly puts them in heaven as Christ's words to the thief, His parable about the Rich man in Hades, and the OT texts cited by the Rabbis in the Talmud quote above, prove.
Alfred and Isa, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 02:16:17 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #463 on: September 15, 2010, 02:31:33 PM »

A fundamental feature of the "departed" is they are departed, not present and so cannot hear you.

Scripture is clear the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, he cannot hear you.


So... those who have died in Christ do not have eternal life? You deny the communion of the saints? Wow, even Martin Luther didn't do that. You act like your Bible does not contain a Book of Revelation, in which the saints continue to worship God.

Wow, that's a lot to ask. And you wonder why we think you're an apostate.

You say your faith depends on Scripture. You are ignoring this:

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -Rev. 5:8

And this:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.  (Heb. 12:1)


Have a look-see over here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_of_Saints

(And here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasius_of_Alexandria)


Alfred's words are what happens when you sever yourself from the Body of Christ, and you don't read or hear about the real Church Fathers. You don't have that informative background. It's as if a history student didn't know about key battles or presidents-- as if they presented you with a paper on the American Revolution that said there never was a Battle of Bunker Hill. You'd scratch your head.

He makes himself to be such an admirer of St. Paul. Well, who was it who said "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you'"? (1 Cor. 12:21)

I don't deny the church is a communion of saints, I do deny the absurd idea it is a telepathic network linking the living to the dead.

Its evident SaintPaul didn't believe Saint Onesiphorus could hear him discuss his family with Saint Timothy, during their "communion of the saints":

16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:16-18 NKJ)

We have modern day proof "communion of the saints" is not a telepathic network, those who claim to belong to this "communion of the saints" all have telephones to call each other.
Revelation of St. John the Divine: 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


St. Matthew 22: 24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?
St. Luke 20:But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

Make me a believer...send me a telepathic message right now!

or

There is an Orthodox neighbor nearby, as he one of the saints in your communion, have him come over and tell me you sent him....as there is communion of the saints, and you can speak to all in the communion, it should be no problem for you...

Do it now. I give you 30 minutes.

Several years ago my wife and I discussed what would happen if one of us passed away. We decided on a sign that the departed would send to the one still living. It was very specific and personal in nature. It was also very unlikely to occur by co-incidence.

She passed away a few years ago. About three days after her funeral, i stepped out of my cae and there it was, the signal we had agreed on. I had not thought about it for years. So after I regained my composure I said aloud. "Okay Dorie, do that again". Two days later, it happened again except this time larger in scale, like : IS THIS CLEAR ENOUGH NOW ?

So, if you don't mind I shall continue to pray for her soul.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #464 on: September 15, 2010, 03:30:36 PM »
Alfred and Isa, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Is it important?

Don't worry Alfred: my computer went down typing my reply. Lord willing I'll get to redo and finish soon.
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #465 on: September 15, 2010, 04:19:41 PM »
Alfred and Isa, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Is it important?
What you and Alfred are arguing vis-à-vis hell, paradise, the Third Heaven, and where the prophet Samuel went after he died...  Is that important?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #466 on: September 15, 2010, 04:50:20 PM »
The ancient Jews saw Gan Eden, Paradise, as being in heaven, not under the earth:

"The sun is red in the morning and the evening---in the morning because it passes over (and catches the reflection of) the roses of Gan Eden, and in the evening because it passes over the entrance of Gehinnom' (Baba Bathra 84a)."-A. Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, p. 380 (Schocken Books, NY, 1995).

In the Talmud the belief paradise is in heaven and the righteous dead went there is clear. A. Cohen summarizes the Rabbinic exegesis, you cannot read this and believe they thought the righteous dead were under the earth:


"There are seven classes of righteous in Gan Eden, one higher than the other. The first class is alluded to in the text, "Surely the righteous shall give thanks unto Thy name; the upright shall dwell in Thy Presence" (Ps cxl. 13). The second is alluded to in, "Blessed is the man whom Thou choosest and causest to approach that he may dwell in Thy courts" (ibid.) The third is alluded to in, "Blessed are they that dwell in Thy house (ibid. lxxxiv.4). The fourth is alluded to in, "Lord, who shall sojourn in Thy tabernacle?" (ibid xv. 1). The fifth is alluded to in, "Who shall dwell in Thy holy hill?" (Ibid.). The sixth is alluded to in, "Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord?" (ibid xxiv. 3), and the seventh in, "Who shall stand in HIs Holy place?" (ibid.)' Sifre Deut sect. 10; 67a)...
Another version reads: 'Seven classes will stand before the Holy One, blessed be He, in the Hereafter. Which is the highest of them to receive the presence of the Shechinah? It is the class of the upright; as itis said, "The upright shall behold their face" (Ps. xi. 7). It is not written "His face" but "their face," i.e., the presence of the Shechinah and His retinue. the first class sits in the company of the King and beholds His presence; as it is said, "The upright dwell in Thy presence." The second dwells in the house of the King; as it is said, "Blessed are they that dwell in Thy house." The third ascends the hill to meet the King, as it is said, "Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord?" The fourth is in the court of the King; as it is said, "Happy is the man whom Thou choosest and causest to approach that he may dwell in Thy courts." The fifth is in the Tabernacle of the King; as it is said, "Lord, who shall sojourn in Thy tabernacle?" The sixth is in the holy hill of the King; as it is said, "Who shall dwell in Thy holy hill?" The seventh is in the place of the King; as it is said, "Who shall stand in His holy place?"'(Midrash to Ps. xi. 7; 51a.)-Ibid, p. 384.

Trying to pull the veil of Moses over our eyes? No, we walk in the way of the Apostles, and not that of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes.
Because what they received, what they taught, what they passed on, what we stand firm in, what raditions we hold which were taught by the Apostles, whether by word, or by letter (II Thessalonians 2:15), what we-remembering them in all things, receiving their praise-hold firm, what traditions, even as the Apostles delivered to us (I Corinthians 11:2), because THAT differs from what those who walketh disorderly millennia after, and not after the Tradition which he received of the Apostles-Or rather, such novelties differ from the 'Faith of the Apostles-because of that differnce we are to hide our eyes from the unbroken cloud of witness which surround the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, so we can don the veil of Moses and walk in the way of the Pharisees? So we can follow someone who not only has not seen the light of Christ, but refuses to behold the radience of God's glory and look in the face of Christ, the icon of the invisible God and the express image of His person, and see the Father? (John 14:9; 2Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3)?

No thank you.

Mat. 15:14  "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Or into hellfire, whose gates shall never, by the divine word of God the Word, prevail against the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.

2Cor. 4:4But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, Who is the icon of God, should shine on them. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

So, for us who have received the Apostles, we withdraw, as the Apostles commanded, from those that walk disorderly, and from those who do not walk after the Tradition which were received of the Apostles. II Thessalonians 3:6.

The Apostolic See of Smyrna doesn't have to prove its links to the Apostles, and you cannot prove yours.  The Lord  knows her works, and tribulation, and poverty, and knows she is rich, knowing the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. She has feared none of those things which she has suffered: behold, the devil has cast some of her chldren into prison, that she may be tried; and she had tribulation ten days. From the tme of St. Polycarp to the Holocaust of 1922, she has been faithful unto death, and He has given her a crown of life.[/color]

But if you do not believe the NT as Scripture, that is your problem.

When Christ said Dives
who?
had to lift up his eyes to see Lazarus and Abraham, and says there is a great gulf separating the two realms, its clear the angels carried Lazarus to heaven, not a place under the earth:

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
 25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
 26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
 (Luk 16:22-26 NKJ)
No mention at all of heaven, if you mean someplace in the sky or where God dwells. Angels carry (rather cast) Satan down in a pit in Rev. 20, in Genesis 19 they seize Lot and his family and brought them out of Sodom. So need to assUme that the angels took Lazarus to the third heaven.

But if you do not believe Scritpure, that is your problem.

Lazarus was gathered to his people, the rich man was not.
I am sure there were Hebrews in Hell.

Gravity pulled the rich man down to his appointed place, but an angel was sent to gather Lazarus lest gravity take him down into the earth also.

Can you cite the words of scripture on that point, rather than present the conjectures of your imagination.

Christ spoke this parable to the Pharisees:

14 Now the Pharisees...15 And He said to them... (Luk 16:14-15 NKJ)

They would have understood it describing the after life quite literally.

Therefore the Orthodox are wrong about where the righteous dead went before Christ's descent into Hades...scripture clearly puts them in heaven as Christ's words to the thief, His parable about the Rich man in Hades, and the OT texts cited by the Rabbis in the Talmud quote above, prove.
You are aware that the Talmud was redacted long, long after the New Testament? Perhaps you aren't aware in this either.

Besides the problem of citing a parable (story as opposed to history), the parable doesn't place Lazarus in heaven, whereas scripture does place the theif in Paradise, the flaming sword of the Cherubim guarding its entrance being extinguished by the wood of the Cross.

On what the Pharisees actually believed in Christ's day, consult the NT theological dictionary:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3YCXPigkZUkC&pg=PA826&dq=theological+dictionary+bosom+of+abraham+New+Testament&hl=en&ei=Qi6RTNfkMsG-nAfHxKi1DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=CGyOpNrzHj0C&pg=PA200&dq=theological+dictionary+hades+later+Judaism+New+Testament&hl=en&ei=xy-RTI6uB9GLnQfq9di0DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
id=BqnmVGo6jA8C&pg=PA548&dq=theological+dictionary+hades+dead+New+Testament&hl=en&ei=kDCRTLDYKNOInQe39820DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=ltZBUW_F9ogC&pg=PA700&dq=Hades+Theological+Dictionary+of+the+New+Testament&hl=en&ei=VTGRTIu5Jc_8nAeq5dS0DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
"Hades"
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #467 on: September 15, 2010, 06:52:00 PM »
Alfred and Isa, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Is it important?
What you and Alfred are arguing vis-à-vis hell, paradise, the Third Heaven, and where the prophet Samuel went after he died...  Is that important?
Only if you think this is important

The Orthodox do, so I do.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #468 on: September 15, 2010, 07:20:41 PM »
Alfred and Isa, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Is it important?
What you and Alfred are arguing vis-à-vis hell, paradise, the Third Heaven, and where the prophet Samuel went after he died...  Is that important?
Only if you think this is important

The Orthodox do, so I do.
ISTM, though, that you wish to engage Alfred in nothing more than a battle of differing interpretations of Scripture.

Alfred:  "The Bible says a, b, & c."
Isa:  "No, the Bible says x, y, & z."

Who cares?

I think we were more effective in debating Alfred when we focused merely on showing Alfred how his interpretations of Scripture contradict the Scriptures without offering equally detailed and thorough interpretations of our own.  If he really wants to know what we believe and how we interpret the Bible, he can read some of the articles on our home page.  Otherwise, you're presenting interpretations of Scripture which may be debatable even among the Orthodox, which will only present a divided front that we don't necessarily want to show Alfred.

I suggest, then, an approach more like this:

Alfred:  "The Bible doesn't say that."
Peter:  "Yeah, it does!" ;D
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 07:29:34 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #469 on: September 15, 2010, 08:27:18 PM »

A fundamental feature of the "departed" is they are departed, not present and so cannot hear you.

Scripture is clear the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, he cannot hear you.


So... those who have died in Christ do not have eternal life? You deny the communion of the saints? Wow, even Martin Luther didn't do that. You act like your Bible does not contain a Book of Revelation, in which the saints continue to worship God.

Wow, that's a lot to ask. And you wonder why we think you're an apostate.

You say your faith depends on Scripture. You are ignoring this:

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -Rev. 5:8

And this:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.  (Heb. 12:1)


Have a look-see over here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_of_Saints

(And here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasius_of_Alexandria)


Alfred's words are what happens when you sever yourself from the Body of Christ, and you don't read or hear about the real Church Fathers. You don't have that informative background. It's as if a history student didn't know about key battles or presidents-- as if they presented you with a paper on the American Revolution that said there never was a Battle of Bunker Hill. You'd scratch your head.

He makes himself to be such an admirer of St. Paul. Well, who was it who said "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you'"? (1 Cor. 12:21)

I don't deny the church is a communion of saints, I do deny the absurd idea it is a telepathic network linking the living to the dead.

Its evident SaintPaul didn't believe Saint Onesiphorus could hear him discuss his family with Saint Timothy, during their "communion of the saints":

16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:16-18 NKJ)

We have modern day proof "communion of the saints" is not a telepathic network, those who claim to belong to this "communion of the saints" all have telephones to call each other.
Revelation of St. John the Divine: 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


St. Matthew 22: 24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?
St. Luke 20:But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

Make me a believer...send me a telepathic message right now!

or

There is an Orthodox neighbor nearby, as he one of the saints in your communion, have him come over and tell me you sent him....as there is communion of the saints, and you can speak to all in the communion, it should be no problem for you...

Do it now. I give you 30 minutes.

Several years ago my wife and I discussed what would happen if one of us passed away. We decided on a sign that the departed would send to the one still living. It was very specific and personal in nature. It was also very unlikely to occur by co-incidence.

She passed away a few years ago. About three days after her funeral, i stepped out of my cae and there it was, the signal we had agreed on. I had not thought about it for years. So after I regained my composure I said aloud. "Okay Dorie, do that again". Two days later, it happened again except this time larger in scale, like : IS THIS CLEAR ENOUGH NOW ?

So, if you don't mind I shall continue to pray for her soul.

You were deceived...evil spirits love tests like that...cultists often ask for a sign their cult is right...and they get them, compliments of evil spirits...just as Saul was hardened in the wrong way by an evil spirit that never once suggested he repent and throw himself at the mercy of the LORD.

It reminds me of that witch who said to me, "You Christians speak in tongues* too! So its ok what I do!"

NKJ  Matthew 24:24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Mat 24:24 NKJ)

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 (2Th 2:9-12 NKJ)



*Cessationism is correct, the supernatural revelation via tongues were a sign to Jews and connected to the Old Covenant's passing, being replaced by the New Covenant.

« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 08:34:11 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #470 on: September 15, 2010, 09:18:07 PM »
Luke 16

 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

 20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

 21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

 23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.  ::)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #471 on: September 15, 2010, 11:25:57 PM »
You were deceived...evil spirits love tests like that...cultists often ask for a sign their cult is right...and they get them, compliments of evil spirits...just as Saul was hardened in the wrong way by an evil spirit that never once suggested he repent and throw himself at the mercy of the LORD.

You're saying Samuel was an evil spirit? Because that is who the Bible identifies as speaking to Saul. Not an evil spirit like Jacob fooling Isaac into thinking he was Esau.

But if you do not believe the Scritpures, that is your problem.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #472 on: September 16, 2010, 08:13:17 AM »
You were deceived...evil spirits love tests like that...cultists often ask for a sign their cult is right...and they get them, compliments of evil spirits...just as Saul was hardened in the wrong way by an evil spirit that never once suggested he repent and throw himself at the mercy of the LORD.

You're saying Samuel was an evil spirit? Because that is who the Bible identifies as speaking to Saul. Not an evil spirit like Jacob fooling Isaac into thinking he was Esau.

But if you do not believe the Scritpures, that is your problem.



Of course not...just as the OT proof texts the deceased were in paradise, third heaven before Christ's advent, are not Jewish texts...they are scripture.

You seem to believe ad hominem will carry the day...it will not with any who think for themselves.

I will point out your many fallacies later, when I have time...for now, keep misrepresenting the argument, it can only enhance my position with thinkers.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #473 on: September 16, 2010, 10:17:51 AM »
You were deceived...evil spirits love tests like that...cultists often ask for a sign their cult is right...and they get them, compliments of evil spirits...just as Saul was hardened in the wrong way by an evil spirit that never once suggested he repent and throw himself at the mercy of the LORD.

You're saying Samuel was an evil spirit? Because that is who the Bible identifies as speaking to Saul. Not an evil spirit like Jacob fooling Isaac into thinking he was Esau.

But if you do not believe the Scritpures, that is your problem.



Of course not...

Of course you do not believe in the Scriptures.


just as the OT proof texts the deceased were in paradise, third heaven before Christ's advent, are not Jewish texts...they are scripture.

Then why do you appeal to Jewish authority, even adopting their Masoretic Text of the OT and citing their Talmud, both of whose redactions postdate the NT and the foundation of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Orthodox Church by centuries?


You seem to believe ad hominem will carry the day...

No, of course it won't: your attack on Samuel's person, calling him an evil spirit, cannot carry the day.

The scriptures says it was Samuel, and gives the example of Jacob and Isaac as an example of deception on identiy, which does not resemble Samuel's appearance at Endor.

Those scriptures do not fit your views. But that you prefer the innovating tradition, recently invented, of the man Alfred Persson, the author and finisher of that faith Perssonism, over scripture, and reject Scripture is your problem.

Pointing that out doesn't attack your person, just states the facts. The Scriptures are sufficient, and your views have been weighed in their scales and found wanting.

it will not with any who think for themselves.

Indeed!  That is the only reason why I bother responding to your post at all, as we have gone well beyond the dust off the feet stage, that those who think for themselves can see the refutation of your suppositions.  I just came across a post you made, expressing that you thought I must be upset that I put so much work in my refutations, and you do not read them.  I had already stated, whether you read them or not doesn't determine my actions either way. They are read by others, who are thereby not mislead by your posts.

I will point out your many fallacies later,
promises, promises...yet ever to deliever.


when I have time...for now, keep misrepresenting the argument, it can only enhance my position with thinkers.
Not with those who think correctly. Marx, Engles and Lenin were thinkers too, just not correct thinkers.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #474 on: September 17, 2010, 01:05:03 AM »
The ancient Jews saw Gan Eden, Paradise, as being in heaven, not under the earth:

"The sun is red in the morning and the evening---in the morning because it passes over (and catches the reflection of) the roses of Gan Eden, and in the evening because it passes over the entrance of Gehinnom' (Baba Bathra 84a)."-A. Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, p. 380 (Schocken Books, NY, 1995).

In the Talmud the belief paradise is in heaven and the righteous dead went there is clear. A. Cohen summarizes the Rabbinic exegesis, you cannot read this and believe they thought the righteous dead were under the earth:


"There are seven classes of righteous in Gan Eden, one higher than the other. The first class is alluded to in the text, "Surely the righteous shall give thanks unto Thy name; the upright shall dwell in Thy Presence" (Ps cxl. 13). The second is alluded to in, "Blessed is the man whom Thou choosest and causest to approach that he may dwell in Thy courts" (ibid.) The third is alluded to in, "Blessed are they that dwell in Thy house (ibid. lxxxiv.4). The fourth is alluded to in, "Lord, who shall sojourn in Thy tabernacle?" (ibid xv. 1). The fifth is alluded to in, "Who shall dwell in Thy holy hill?" (Ibid.). The sixth is alluded to in, "Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord?" (ibid xxiv. 3), and the seventh in, "Who shall stand in HIs Holy place?" (ibid.)' Sifre Deut sect. 10; 67a)...
Another version reads: 'Seven classes will stand before the Holy One, blessed be He, in the Hereafter. Which is the highest of them to receive the presence of the Shechinah? It is the class of the upright; as itis said, "The upright shall behold their face" (Ps. xi. 7). It is not written "His face" but "their face," i.e., the presence of the Shechinah and His retinue. the first class sits in the company of the King and beholds His presence; as it is said, "The upright dwell in Thy presence." The second dwells in the house of the King; as it is said, "Blessed are they that dwell in Thy house." The third ascends the hill to meet the King, as it is said, "Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord?" The fourth is in the court of the King; as it is said, "Happy is the man whom Thou choosest and causest to approach that he may dwell in Thy courts." The fifth is in the Tabernacle of the King; as it is said, "Lord, who shall sojourn in Thy tabernacle?" The sixth is in the holy hill of the King; as it is said, "Who shall dwell in Thy holy hill?" The seventh is in the place of the King; as it is said, "Who shall stand in His holy place?"'(Midrash to Ps. xi. 7; 51a.)-Ibid, p. 384.

Trying to pull the veil of Moses over our eyes? No, we walk in the way of the Apostles, and not that of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes.
Because what they received, what they taught, what they passed on, what we stand firm in, what raditions we hold which were taught by the Apostles, whether by word, or by letter (II Thessalonians 2:15), what we-remembering them in all things, receiving their praise-hold firm, what traditions, even as the Apostles delivered to us (I Corinthians 11:2), because THAT differs from what those who walketh disorderly millennia after, and not after the Tradition which he received of the Apostles-Or rather, such novelties differ from the 'Faith of the Apostles-because of that differnce we are to hide our eyes from the unbroken cloud of witness which surround the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, so we can don the veil of Moses and walk in the way of the Pharisees? So we can follow someone who not only has not seen the light of Christ, but refuses to behold the radience of God's glory and look in the face of Christ, the icon of the invisible God and the express image of His person, and see the Father? (John 14:9; 2Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3)?

No thank you.

Mat. 15:14  "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Or into hellfire, whose gates shall never, by the divine word of God the Word, prevail against the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.

2Cor. 4:4But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, Who is the icon of God, should shine on them. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

So, for us who have received the Apostles, we withdraw, as the Apostles commanded, from those that walk disorderly, and from those who do not walk after the Tradition which were received of the Apostles. II Thessalonians 3:6.

The Apostolic See of Smyrna doesn't have to prove its links to the Apostles, and you cannot prove yours.  The Lord  knows her works, and tribulation, and poverty, and knows she is rich, knowing the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. She has feared none of those things which she has suffered: behold, the devil has cast some of her chldren into prison, that she may be tried; and she had tribulation ten days. From the tme of St. Polycarp to the Holocaust of 1922, she has been faithful unto death, and He has given her a crown of life.[/color]

But if you do not believe the NT as Scripture, that is your problem.

When Christ said Dives
who?
had to lift up his eyes to see Lazarus and Abraham, and says there is a great gulf separating the two realms, its clear the angels carried Lazarus to heaven, not a place under the earth:

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
 25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
 26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
 (Luk 16:22-26 NKJ)
No mention at all of heaven, if you mean someplace in the sky or where God dwells. Angels carry (rather cast) Satan down in a pit in Rev. 20, in Genesis 19 they seize Lot and his family and brought them out of Sodom. So need to assUme that the angels took Lazarus to the third heaven.

But if you do not believe Scritpure, that is your problem.

Lazarus was gathered to his people, the rich man was not.
I am sure there were Hebrews in Hell.

Gravity pulled the rich man down to his appointed place, but an angel was sent to gather Lazarus lest gravity take him down into the earth also.

Can you cite the words of scripture on that point, rather than present the conjectures of your imagination.

Christ spoke this parable to the Pharisees:

14 Now the Pharisees...15 And He said to them... (Luk 16:14-15 NKJ)

They would have understood it describing the after life quite literally.

Therefore the Orthodox are wrong about where the righteous dead went before Christ's descent into Hades...scripture clearly puts them in heaven as Christ's words to the thief, His parable about the Rich man in Hades, and the OT texts cited by the Rabbis in the Talmud quote above, prove.
You are aware that the Talmud was redacted long, long after the New Testament? Perhaps you aren't aware in this either.

Besides the problem of citing a parable (story as opposed to history), the parable doesn't place Lazarus in heaven, whereas scripture does place the theif in Paradise, the flaming sword of the Cherubim guarding its entrance being extinguished by the wood of the Cross.

On what the Pharisees actually believed in Christ's day, consult the NT theological dictionary:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3YCXPigkZUkC&pg=PA826&dq=theological+dictionary+bosom+of+abraham+New+Testament&hl=en&ei=Qi6RTNfkMsG-nAfHxKi1DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=CGyOpNrzHj0C&pg=PA200&dq=theological+dictionary+hades+later+Judaism+New+Testament&hl=en&ei=xy-RTI6uB9GLnQfq9di0DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
id=BqnmVGo6jA8C&pg=PA548&dq=theological+dictionary+hades+dead+New+Testament&hl=en&ei=kDCRTLDYKNOInQe39820DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=ltZBUW_F9ogC&pg=PA700&dq=Hades+Theological+Dictionary+of+the+New+Testament&hl=en&ei=VTGRTIu5Jc_8nAeq5dS0DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
"Hades"

Our Lord Jesus Christ did not say everything the Jews believed was false:

52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Mat 13:52 NKJ)

If Paul did not agree with the Pharisees regarding the resurrection, and other main points of related doctrine, then he lied when he claimed to be a "son of a Pharisee":


6 "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!" (Act 23:6 NKJ)


That Christ and the Pharisees held similar beliefs about hell is clear:



22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 (Luk 16:22-23 NKJ)

"In the Hereafter Abraham will sit at the entrance of Gehinnom and will not allow any circumcised Israelite to descend into it."- Genesis Rabbah XLVIII. 8
 
"'Passing through the valley of weeping' (Ps. lxxxiv. 6), i.e. they who are sentenced for a time in Gehinnom; and Abraham our father comes and takes them out and receives them..."-Erubin 19a  
-Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud (Schocken Books, NY, 1995), pp 381, 382  

Christ is rebuking their deriding His teaching against materialism, contradicting their reliance upon Abraham, they believed he would not allow them to descend into hell:


  7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
 8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,
 9 "and do not think to say to yourselves,`We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
 (Mat 3:7-9 NKJ)


Christ never said they were wrong to believe "gathered to his people" did not literally mean an angel gathered the righteous dead into paradise:

"the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom"

The following texts, listed in the order cited by the Rabbis  are also found in the Septuagint albeit in Ps 11:7 the unusual suffix in the Hebrew, which can be translated "His" or "their" is used.

LXE  Psalm 140:13 Surely the righteous shall give thanks to thy name: the upright shall dwell in thy presence. (Psa 140:13 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 65:4 Blessed is he whom thou hast chosen and adopted; he shall dwell in thy courts; we shall be filled with the good things of thy house; thy temple is holy. (Psa 65:4 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 84:4 Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will praise thee evermore. Pause. (Psa 84:4 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 15:1 <A Psalm of David.> O Lord, who shall sojourn in thy tabernacle? and who shall dwell in thy holy mountain? (Psa 15:1 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 24:3 Who shall go up to the mountain of the Lord, and who shall stand in his holy place? (Psa 24:3 LXE)



LXE  Psalm 11:7 For the Lord is righteous, and loves righteousness; his face beholds uprightness. (Psa 11:7 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 140:13 Surely the righteous shall give thanks to thy name: the upright shall dwell in thy presence. (Psa 140:13 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 84:4 Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will praise thee evermore. Pause. (Psa 84:4 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 24:3 Who shall go up to the mountain of the Lord, and who shall stand in his holy place? (Psa 24:3 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 65:4 Blessed is he whom thou hast chosen and adopted; he shall dwell in thy courts; we shall be filled with the good things of thy house; thy temple is holy. (Psa 65:4 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 15:1 <A Psalm of David.> O Lord, who shall sojourn in thy tabernacle? and who shall dwell in thy holy mountain? (Psa 15:1 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 24:3 Who shall go up to the mountain of the Lord, and who shall stand in his holy place? (Psa 24:3 LXE)


These texts don't put a veil of Moses over our eyes, they reveal the state of the righteous dead after physical death.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 01:10:04 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #475 on: September 17, 2010, 01:29:52 AM »
Okay...  So what?  How does this relate to anything truly important on this thread?

For instance:
1.  The Orthodox understanding of Tradition as the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church
2.  My refutation of your claim that the laying on of hands as invocation of the Holy Spirit upon those who had not received Him is a legalistic rule with no foundation in the apostolic traditions
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #476 on: September 17, 2010, 10:47:15 AM »
Okay...  So what?  How does this relate to anything truly important on this thread?

For instance:
1.  The Orthodox understanding of Tradition as the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church
2.  My refutation of your claim that the laying on of hands as invocation of the Holy Spirit upon those who had not received Him is a legalistic rule with no foundation in the apostolic traditions

1)Your tradition contradicts the Word of God. Contrary to what the Orthodox say, Jesus promised the thief he would be with Him in paradise (Luke 23:43), third heaven (2 Cor 12:2, 4) that very day, before His descent into hell.

2)The only thing your unscientific methodology proved is Orthodox compartmentalization of God's infinitude, omnipresence, omnipotence, and holiness so that He is dependent upon human hands to indwell His children.

As infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent Holy God, He doesn't require human hands to do do anything, including indwelling His children:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)

Scripture rejects putting God in a tiny box, tradition of men not powerful enough to keep Him in there.


Any tradition that contradicts the Word of God is defiling to a man:

 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear and understand:
 11 "Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."
 (Mat 15:8-11 NKJ)

Make God's path to your heart straight, every obstacle of man's tradition and fallen nature must be brought low, every pothole  hindering the acceptance of God's sovereignty and Majesty filled up with obedience to the true the knowledge of God revealed in Scripture. Man must repent of his crooked ways:

  4 as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:`Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.
 5 Every valley shall be filled And every mountain and hill brought low; The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough ways smooth;
 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'"
 (Luk 3:4-6 NKJ)

Our LORD Jesus Christ is coming, we have to get ready for Him.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 11:05:52 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #477 on: September 17, 2010, 11:05:21 AM »

Trying to pull the veil of Moses over our eyes? No, we walk in the way of the Apostles, and not that of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes.
Because what they received, what they taught, what they passed on, what we stand firm in, what raditions we hold which were taught by the Apostles, whether by word, or by letter (II Thessalonians 2:15), what we-remembering them in all things, receiving their praise-hold firm, what traditions, even as the Apostles delivered to us (I Corinthians 11:2), because THAT differs from what those who walketh disorderly millennia after, and not after the Tradition which he received of the Apostles-Or rather, such novelties differ from the 'Faith of the Apostles-because of that differnce we are to hide our eyes from the unbroken cloud of witness which surround the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, so we can don the veil of Moses and walk in the way of the Pharisees? So we can follow someone who not only has not seen the light of Christ, but refuses to behold the radience of God's glory and look in the face of Christ, the icon of the invisible God and the express image of His person, and see the Father? (John 14:9; 2Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3)?

No thank you.

Mat. 15:14  "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Or into hellfire, whose gates shall never, by the divine word of God the Word, prevail against the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.

2Cor. 4:4But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, Who is the icon of God, should shine on them. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

So, for us who have received the Apostles, we withdraw, as the Apostles commanded, from those that walk disorderly, and from those who do not walk after the Tradition which were received of the Apostles. II Thessalonians 3:6.

The Apostolic See of Smyrna doesn't have to prove its links to the Apostles, and you cannot prove yours.  The Lord  knows her works, and tribulation, and poverty, and knows she is rich, knowing the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. She has feared none of those things which she has suffered: behold, the devil has cast some of her chldren into prison, that she may be tried; and she had tribulation ten days. From the tme of St. Polycarp to the Holocaust of 1922, she has been faithful unto death, and He has given her a crown of life.[/color]

But if you do not believe the NT as Scripture, that is your problem.

You are aware that the Talmud was redacted long, long after the New Testament? Perhaps you aren't aware in this either.

Besides the problem of citing a parable (story as opposed to history), the parable doesn't place Lazarus in heaven, whereas scripture does place the theif in Paradise, the flaming sword of the Cherubim guarding its entrance being extinguished by the wood of the Cross.

On what the Pharisees actually believed in Christ's day, consult the NT theological dictionary:

Our Lord Jesus Christ did not say everything the Jews believed was false:

52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Mat 13:52 NKJ)

If Paul did not agree with the Pharisees regarding the resurrection, and other main points of related doctrine, then he lied when he claimed to be a "son of a Pharisee":


6 "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!" (Act 23:6 NKJ)


That Christ and the Pharisees held similar beliefs about hell is clear:

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 (Luk 16:22-23 NKJ)

"In the Hereafter Abraham will sit at the entrance of Gehinnom and will not allow any circumcised Israelite to descend into it."- Genesis Rabbah XLVIII. 8

Genesis (or rather Berishith) Rabbah: "Genesis Rabbah, generally assigned the date of 450 CE [i.e. AD], is a verse by verse commentary to the book of Genesis. It is the first Rabbinic document."
http://books.google.com/books?id=KZL9w9M5XfQC&pg=PA33&dq=genesis+rabbah+date&hl=en&ei=wWKTTLeaIMbGnAfRnp2LBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=genesis%20rabbah%20date&f=false
Persia and Rome in classical Judaism By Jacob Neusner
(Neusner did the new translation of Bereshith Rabbah. He did a  number of interesting books on Judaism and Christianity, including some print on Jewish iconography)
http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks:1&tbo=p&q=+inauthor:%22Jacob+Neusner%22

I know that your beliefs do not predate yourself, and your roots do not go beyond 1517, so you are probably prone to have everything before that as a blurr, depending on the testimony of others, but the 3-4th century Talmud postdates the 1st century NT by quite a bit. By 451the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church had already four Ecumenical Councils under our belt, such that Pope St. Gregory said  "I confess that I receive and revere, as the four books of the Gospel so also the four Councils."
http://books.google.com/books?id=leoK-f67rsYC&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=I+revere+the+four+councils+as+I+revere+the+four+gospels&source=bl&ots=PL7VFXdLr4&sig=Qe6kAPUGQ68E17n6xg4ifzgNwqo&hl=en&ei=UGqTTNhMkYydB87dpfsH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=intercourse&f=false
The Teachings of the Church Fathers By John Randolph Willis, Marie Joseph Rouët de Journel

So you should be comparing the Faith of the successors of the Disciples of Christ, the bishops of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church if you are going to cite the traditions of the men who succeeded the Pharisees in the 4th century.
 
But even then, your sources deal with the Day of Resurrection, and not where the righteous dead were in the meantime. So too your appeal to the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes:
The ancient Jews saw Gan Eden, Paradise, as being in heaven, not under the earth:

"The sun is red in the morning and the evening---in the morning because it passes over (and catches the reflection of) the roses of Gan Eden, and in the evening because it passes over the entrance of Gehinnom' (Baba Bathra 84a)."-A. Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, p. 380 (Schocken Books, NY, 1995).
does not place paradise in heaven, but on the same level as the entrance to Gehanna, i.e. the terrestial horizon, where the sun is "touching" the earth, not when it is high over head in heaven.

"'Passing through the valley of weeping' (Ps. lxxxiv. 6), i.e. they who are sentenced for a time in Gehinnom; and Abraham our father comes and takes them out and receives them..."-Erubin 19a  -Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud (Schocken Books, NY, 1995), pp 381, 382

Also speaks of the Last Day
http://books.google.com/books?id=Av7V-HkQYSoC&pg=PA7&dq=passing+through+the+valley+of+tears+gehinnom&hl=en&ei=332TTNqhAYWTnQfcpujrCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Above all else: the Chofetz Chaim on Torah study : collected from ..., Volume 1 By Israel Meir (ha-Kohen), Esther Chachamzedek

Since you cite this as common belief, I take it that you believe in the Apostles' Tradition of the Church's power to loosen in the grave, or at least the Vatican derivative of it-purgatory?

Christ is rebuking their deriding His teaching against materialism, contradicting their reliance upon Abraham, they believed he would not allow them to descend into hell:


  7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
 8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,
 9 "and do not think to say to yourselves,`We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
 (Mat 3:7-9 NKJ)

Christ never said they were wrong to believe "gathered to his people" did not literally mean an angel gathered the righteous dead into paradise:

"the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom"[/quote][/quote]

Since you have not cited a single text that deals with the state between death and the Day of Resurrection, rather than the state on after the Day of Resurrection, I won't go into it.

The following texts, listed in the order cited by the Rabbis  are also found in the Septuagint albeit in Ps 11:7 the unusual suffix in the Hebrew, which can be translated "His" or "their" is used.

LXE  Psalm 140:13 Surely the righteous shall give thanks to thy name: the upright shall dwell in thy presence. (Psa 140:13 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 65:4 Blessed is he whom thou hast chosen and adopted; he shall dwell in thy courts; we shall be filled with the good things of thy house; thy temple is holy. (Psa 65:4 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 84:4 Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will praise thee evermore. Pause. (Psa 84:4 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 15:1 <A Psalm of David.> O Lord, who shall sojourn in thy tabernacle? and who shall dwell in thy holy mountain? (Psa 15:1 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 24:3 Who shall go up to the mountain of the Lord, and who shall stand in his holy place? (Psa 24:3 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 11:7 For the Lord is righteous, and loves righteousness; his face beholds uprightness. (Psa 11:7 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 140:13 Surely the righteous shall give thanks to thy name: the upright shall dwell in thy presence. (Psa 140:13 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 84:4 Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will praise thee evermore. Pause. (Psa 84:4 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 24:3 Who shall go up to the mountain of the Lord, and who shall stand in his holy place? (Psa 24:3 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 65:4 Blessed is he whom thou hast chosen and adopted; he shall dwell in thy courts; we shall be filled with the good things of thy house; thy temple is holy. (Psa 65:4 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 15:1 <A Psalm of David.> O Lord, who shall sojourn in thy tabernacle? and who shall dwell in thy holy mountain? (Psa 15:1 LXE)

LXE  Psalm 24:3 Who shall go up to the mountain of the Lord, and who shall stand in his holy place? (Psa 24:3 LXE)

Notice the extensive use of the future tense?

These texts don't put a veil of Moses over our eyes, they reveal the state of the righteous dead after physical death.
Only to those on whom the Light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Icon of God, has shone, for it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. II II Cor. 4:4.
Your rabbis and their followers do not fit the Apostle's description.

But if you don't believe the Apostle St. Paul and scritpure, that's your problem.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 11:11:33 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #478 on: September 17, 2010, 11:09:33 AM »
Can't God choose to act however he wants, apart from what Afred Persson thinks of it?

Talk about God putting himself in a box, what was the Incarnation? Why does God have angels, why not just communicate with people and do things himself? Surely he can forgive sins without the Israelites having to slaughter innocent baby animals. What is prayer for, when God already knows our needs and desires? Certainly there is no point to praying for others, because they must know their situation better than we can.

Have you not read the Bible? God is constantly mediating himself through sacred actions and material objects and people. It is actually comparatively rare where God actually does something by his transcendent self, with voices booming from heaven and flashing light. No, God mediates himself through material means, for our good, because we are material creatures and cannot understand the transcendent. So if you have a problem with a God who is "in a box" and constrained to acting through rituals, take it up with him. You're wrong, God can do whatever he wants, but he chooses to act in this way, through rituals. We have no power to force him to do anything.

Ours is a God who constantly condescends himself and comes down to our physical level because he loves us and wants us to be able to have communion with him.

Alfred, you are exactly right. In some ways, our God is in a box. A box of his own making. A box he made for our sakes, so that we can bridge the gap between us and so that we can become like him in theosis.

Alfred Persson's God is so stuck-up and full of himself that he cannot dream of sacrificing his glory and majesty for the good of us. In all truth, he sounds more like the god of Islam than the God of Christianity.

But our God did not count his own glory something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Our God is a loving father, not a father who is so insecure that he must constantly assert his transcendence, too lofty to ever act in a way that could make it appear that he is not all-powerful. We are well-aware of his transcendence, to be sure, and we thank him that he has knelt down beside us in spite of it.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 11:29:01 AM by bogdan »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #479 on: September 17, 2010, 11:51:14 AM »
Okay...  So what?  How does this relate to anything truly important on this thread?

For instance:
1.  The Orthodox understanding of Tradition as the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church
2.  My refutation of your claim that the laying on of hands as invocation of the Holy Spirit upon those who had not received Him is a legalistic rule with no foundation in the apostolic traditions

1)Your tradition contradicts the Word of God. Contrary to what the Orthodox say, Jesus promised the thief he would be with Him in paradise (Luke 23:43), third heaven (2 Cor 12:2, 4) that very day, before His descent into hell.
No, the very day of His descent.
We've already dealt with that:
Religionists have boxes they put God in, but He is infinite, much greater than your box.
No, God put Himself in this box:
and this one:

http://saintjameskids.blogspot.com/2008_07_01_archive.html
"In the tomb with the Body
 In Hell with the Soul
 In Paradise with the Thief
 Sitting on the Throne with the Father and Spirit
 Were You, O Christ!
 Yourself alone uncircumscribed."

2)The only thing your unscientific methodology proved is Orthodox compartmentalization of God's infinitude, omnipresence, omnipotence, and holiness so that He is dependent upon human hands to indwell His children.
He waited until one of us said yes to Him instead of the serpent.


Born of a woman, born under the Law, is Christ Our God, the Head of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, the Icon of the invisible God, for it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness of Godhead was pleased to dwell (Gal. 4:4, Col 2:15, 18, 19)

But since you do not believe the Scriptures, but prefer your man made traditions, you have a problem with the Incarnation.

As infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent Holy God, He doesn't require human hands to do do anything, including indwelling His children:
Scripture doesn't say He raped the Virgin Theotokos. She said "Let it be!" for the New Creation, as the Father had said "Let there be!" of the Old Creation.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)
We have dealt with that already. But since you do not believe scripture, you continue to try to create your own tradition.
Baptismal regeneration is a excellent illustration:

45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:45-48 NKJ)

You refuse this elegant proof neither water or hands laying are necessary for regeneration.

Can you read? I've boldfaced to help you. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are many, speaking with tongues doesn't mean regeneration. As for laying on of hands, it doesn't say that St. Peter did not do that as well, after they BAPTIZED THEM WITH WATER.

You ask why you and the church fathers don't believe this,  and I do...its elementary.
The Fathers, sent by Christ through the Apostles, and consequently us, know what we are talking about
This  proves your rules are incorrect,

Yet again, you stop short:
48 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Your incorrect interpretation (and not infallible scripture) are contradicted here Acts 8:
Quote
12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.”
From someone sent by Christ through His Apostles and the grace of the Episcopacy from St. Peter's see of Antioch, St. John Chrysostom, he knows of what he speaks:
Quote
Observe God’s providential management. He does not suffer the speech to be finished, nor the baptism to take place upon a command of Peter, but, when He has made it evident how admirable their state of mind is, and a beginning is made of the work of teaching, and they have believed that assuredly baptism is the remission of sins, then forthwith comes the Spirit upon them. Now this is done by God’s so disposing it as to provide for Peter a mighty ground of justification...
and you don't.

Scripture rejects putting God in a tiny box, tradition of men not powerful enough to keep Him in there.
No, you are not powerful to squeeze Him into that idol you have fashioned from sola scripture, the Talmud, and the imaginations of your heart.

That you do not believe in the God of scripture is your problem.

Any tradition that contradicts the Word of God is defiling to a man:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear and understand:
 11 "Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."
 (Mat 15:8-11 NKJ)

Physician, heal thyself.

Make God's path to your heart straight, every obstacle of man's tradition and fallen nature must be brought low, every pothole  hindering the acceptance of God's sovereignty and Majesty filled up with obedience to the true the knowledge of God revealed in Scripture. Man must repent of his crooked ways:

  4 as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:`Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.
 5 Every valley shall be filled And every mountain and hill brought low; The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough ways smooth;
 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'"
 (Luk 3:4-6 NKJ)

Our LORD Jesus Christ is coming, we have to get ready for Him.
Our Cloud of Witnesses are, your army of one patently is not.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 11:52:40 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #480 on: September 17, 2010, 12:22:16 PM »
"'Passing through the valley of weeping' (Ps. lxxxiv. 6), i.e. they who are sentenced for a time in Gehinnom; and Abraham our father comes and takes them out and receives them..."-Erubin 19a  -Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud (Schocken Books, NY, 1995), pp 381, 382

Also speaks of the Last Day
http://books.google.com/books?id=Av7V-HkQYSoC&pg=PA7&dq=passing+through+the+valley+of+tears+gehinnom&hl=en&ei=332TTNqhAYWTnQfcpujrCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Above all else: the Chofetz Chaim on Torah study : collected from ..., Volume 1 By Israel Meir (ha-Kohen), Esther Chachamzedek

Since you cite this as common belief, I take it that you believe in the Apostles' Tradition of the Church's power to loosen in the grave, or at least the Vatican derivative of it-purgatory?

You can look through your authorities here:
http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Eiruvin.pdf
It's dealing with travel on the Sabbath though, not the Resurrection.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #481 on: September 17, 2010, 03:15:24 PM »
Okay...  So what?  How does this relate to anything truly important on this thread?

For instance:
1.  The Orthodox understanding of Tradition as the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church
2.  My refutation of your claim that the laying on of hands as invocation of the Holy Spirit upon those who had not received Him is a legalistic rule with no foundation in the apostolic traditions

1)Your tradition contradicts the Word of God. Contrary to what the Orthodox say, Jesus promised the thief he would be with Him in paradise (Luke 23:43), third heaven (2 Cor 12:2, 4) that very day, before His descent into hell.
What authoritative Orthodox sources are you citing here to suggest that we believe such a thing?  Ialmisry speaks for himself, so don't take him as representative of what our tradition teaches on this matter.

2)The only thing your unscientific methodology proved is Orthodox compartmentalization of God's infinitude, omnipresence, omnipotence, and holiness so that He is dependent upon human hands to indwell His children.
Again proving my point that you don't listen, since I've stated only the opposite.

As infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent Holy God, He doesn't require human hands to do do anything, including indwelling His children:
Of course He doesn't, and the biblical narrative you keep citing proves that.  The rules God has established for us to follow place no restriction whatsoever on what God can do.  They only show us how God wants us to come to Him.  God can and often does redeem and cleanse those who have never been baptized, but He wants us to come to Him through baptism.  As the following passage from the Acts of the Apostles shows, God's Holy Spirit can and often does descend upon and indwell those who have not received the laying on of hands, but the Apostles recognized that the normative way God gave us for us to come to God and receive Him is through the laying on of hands.  This isn't about what God can or cannot do, since He can do whatever He pleases.  This is about what He wants us to do.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)

Scripture rejects putting God in a tiny box, tradition of men not powerful enough to keep Him in there.
It seems as if you're the one putting God in a box by saying that we can come to Him in any way of our choosing and still expect Him to act as we desire.  God is not a cosmic bellhop.

Any tradition that contradicts the Word of God is defiling to a man:
Yes, and I've shown you repeatedly how your traditions contradict the Word of God written in Scripture.


BTW, you've still not answered the questions I asked in the beginning of my last post.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 03:19:52 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #482 on: September 17, 2010, 09:44:47 PM »

What authoritative Orthodox sources are you citing here to suggest that we believe such a thing?  Ialmisry speaks for himself, so don't take him as representative of what our tradition teaches on this matter.

I'd appreciate your directing me to an official source, little profit in discussing what you don't believe.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #483 on: September 17, 2010, 10:08:54 PM »
Okay...  So what?  How does this relate to anything truly important on this thread?

For instance:
1.  The Orthodox understanding of Tradition as the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church
2.  My refutation of your claim that the laying on of hands as invocation of the Holy Spirit upon those who had not received Him is a legalistic rule with no foundation in the apostolic traditions

1)Your tradition contradicts the Word of God. Contrary to what the Orthodox say, Jesus promised the thief he would be with Him in paradise (Luke 23:43), third heaven (2 Cor 12:2, 4) that very day, before His descent into hell.
What authoritative Orthodox sources are you citing here to suggest that we believe such a thing?  Ialmisry speaks for himself, so don't take him as representative of what our tradition teaches on this matter.

2)The only thing your unscientific methodology proved is Orthodox compartmentalization of God's infinitude, omnipresence, omnipotence, and holiness so that He is dependent upon human hands to indwell His children.
Again proving my point that you don't listen, since I've stated only the opposite.

As infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent Holy God, He doesn't require human hands to do do anything, including indwelling His children:
Of course He doesn't, and the biblical narrative you keep citing proves that.  The rules God has established for us to follow place no restriction whatsoever on what God can do.  They only show us how God wants us to come to Him.  God can and often does redeem and cleanse those who have never been baptized, but He wants us to come to Him through baptism.  As the following passage from the Acts of the Apostles shows, God's Holy Spirit can and often does descend upon and indwell those who have not received the laying on of hands, but the Apostles recognized that the normative way God gave us for us to come to God and receive Him is through the laying on of hands.  This isn't about what God can or cannot do, since He can do whatever He pleases.  This is about what He wants us to do.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:44-48 NKJ)

Scripture rejects putting God in a tiny box, tradition of men not powerful enough to keep Him in there.
It seems as if you're the one putting God in a box by saying that we can come to Him in any way of our choosing and still expect Him to act as we desire.  God is not a cosmic bellhop.

Any tradition that contradicts the Word of God is defiling to a man:
Yes, and I've shown you repeatedly how your traditions contradict the Word of God written in Scripture.


BTW, you've still not answered the questions I asked in the beginning of my last post.

22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people's sins; keep yourself pure. (1Ti 5:22 NKJ)

You said laying on of hands was required to receive the Holy Spirit, I cited the text proving that wrong. Apparently you now agree.

As the dispute never was about the practice of laying on of hands, we're done.

If you still insist one cannot recieve the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands, we are back to the text proving that idea wrong.

An analogy. Gravity is a rule because everything gets pulled downward by gravity. If however, some objects levitated, others were propelled into outer space, and only some pulled down, then gravity is no longer a rule. Its then irrelevant to what the objects do, why some fly, and other levitate.

My point is simple. People receive the Holy Spirit when God decides they do, and His omnipresence means no medium is required. He need only "unveil" that part of Himself to the believer.

There is no rule save one must believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God:

NKJ  Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."
 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
 (Act 19:1-6 NKJ)

Paul noticed these believers lacked the Holy Spirit, his question reveals Paul's belief, one receives the Holy Spirit "when they believe."

As these knew only John's baptism, they had not confessed Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Therefore Paul expounds Jesus the Christ, and when they believe, they receive the Holy Spirit after Paul laid hands on them.

It would be a false cause fallacy to affirm they received the Holy Spirit via the laying on of hands.

IF  they hadn't believed in Jesus, then laying on hands would accomplish nothing, otherwise Paul would have done that and not bothered preaching Jesus.

Its is wrong to believe the Omnipresent God channels the Holy Spirit through the hands of men. There is no "gap" in God's omnipresence for human hands to bridge between God and the believer.


AND it is clear from the acts of the apostles in Acts c. 15, they did not have rules about receiving the Holy Spirit, they learned how it would happen as God did it before their eyes:

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.
 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
 14 "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
 15 "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
 (Act 15:12-15 NKJ)

They learned from actual events. There was no rule about these things, for the Orthodox to make rules about it is wrong.

We lay hands to set them apart for service, not mediate Holy Spirit. That God the Holy Spirit sometimes waits for this "commission" before infilling a believer is His honoring the occasion, but its misreading His intent to say:

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
 19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
 20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!
 (Act 8:18-20 NKJ)

Peter's point is elegant, this is a gift from God, not something earned or "conjured up" by religious rite.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 10:14:57 PM by Alfred Persson »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #484 on: September 17, 2010, 10:16:25 PM »

What authoritative Orthodox sources are you citing here to suggest that we believe such a thing?  Ialmisry speaks for himself, so don't take him as representative of what our tradition teaches on this matter.

I'd appreciate your directing me to an official source, little profit in discussing what you don't believe.


Nah!  It's up to you to make sure you're discussing what we really believe and not just jumping on what you would like to think we believe. 8)
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #485 on: September 17, 2010, 10:40:57 PM »
22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people's sins; keep yourself pure. (1Ti 5:22 NKJ)

You said laying on of hands was required to receive the Holy Spirit,
No, I never said that.

I cited the text proving that wrong. Apparently you now agree.

As the dispute never was about the practice of laying on of hands, we're done.

If you still insist one cannot recieve the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands, we are back to the text proving that idea wrong.

An analogy. Gravity is a rule because everything gets pulled downward by gravity. If however, some objects levitated, others were propelled into outer space, and only some pulled down, then gravity is no longer a rule. Its then irrelevant to what the objects do, why some fly, and other levitate.

My point is simple. People receive the Holy Spirit when God decides they do, and His omnipresence means no medium is required. He need only "unveil" that part of Himself to the believer.
And yet He has chosen to do this in response to ritual actions that He has given us so that we may call upon Him.  You cannot deny that the laying on of hands to invoke the descent of the Holy Spirit upon those who hadn't yet received Him is a practice with apostolic precedent.

There is no rule save one must believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God:

NKJ  Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."
 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
 (Act 19:1-6 NKJ)

Paul noticed these believers lacked the Holy Spirit, his question reveals Paul's belief, one receives the Holy Spirit "when they believe."

As these knew only John's baptism, they had not confessed Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Therefore Paul expounds Jesus the Christ, and when they believe, they receive the Holy Spirit after Paul laid hands on them.

It would be a false cause fallacy to affirm they received the Holy Spirit via the laying on of hands.

IF  they hadn't believed in Jesus, then laying on hands would accomplish nothing, otherwise Paul would have done that and not bothered preaching Jesus.

Its is wrong to believe the Omnipresent God channels the Holy Spirit through the hands of men. There is no "gap" in God's omnipresence for human hands to bridge between God and the believer.


AND it is clear from the acts of the apostles in Acts c. 15, they did not have rules about receiving the Holy Spirit, they learned how it would happen as God did it before their eyes:

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.
 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
 14 "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
 15 "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
 (Act 15:12-15 NKJ)

They learned from actual events. There was no rule about these things, for the Orthodox to make rules about it is wrong.

We lay hands to set them apart for service, not mediate Holy Spirit. That God the Holy Spirit sometimes waits for this "commission" before infilling a believer is His honoring the occasion, but its misreading His intent to say:

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
 19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
 20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!
 (Act 8:18-20 NKJ)

Peter's point is elegant, this is a gift from God, not something earned or "conjured up" by religious rite.
Herein lies your problem as I see it.  You think we believe that the works of God can be conjured up by our religious rites.  We believe no such thing.  We do only what God has commanded us to do, and He responds as He promises He will.
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Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #486 on: September 17, 2010, 11:06:33 PM »
Notice how Persson again gives us a cherry-picking expedition.  ::)

Is Alfred a minister? Or does he wish that he were? I have to wonder.  
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 11:06:54 PM by biro »
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #487 on: September 18, 2010, 12:45:13 AM »
The NT mentions different kinds of laying on of hands.

There is for the gift of the Holy Spirit, or what the Orthodox would call chrismation.

Acts 8:17-18
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

There is for the purpose of commissioning someone for a purpose, or what the Orthodox would call ordination.

Acts 6:6
Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

Acts 13:3-4
And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

1Tim 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

2Tim 1:6
Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

And there is for the purpose of healing someone, or as the Orthodox would call the anointing of the sick.

Acts 28:8
And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.

James 5:14-15
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

But regardless of the occasion for the laying on of hands, it always has to do with the Holy Spirit working and doing something through the laying on of hands. Just because God has a preferred way of doing things doesn't mean He is limited, only that He normally prefers to do things that way. He may still, and does on occasion, choose to act in a different way of His choosing. And if God should act in a way different than what He has established as being normal, it is by His choosing and not anyone else's.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #488 on: September 18, 2010, 03:49:19 AM »
Yes, and I've shown you repeatedly how your traditions contradict the Word of God written in Scripture.


BTW, you've still not answered the questions I asked in the beginning of my last post.

22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people's sins; keep yourself pure. (1Ti 5:22 NKJ)

You said laying on of hands was required to receive the Holy Spirit, I cited the text proving that wrong.
No, you did not. We've gone over this several times. We accept the scriptures and you do not.
We have dealt with that already. But since you do not believe scripture, you continue to try to create your own tradition.
Baptismal regeneration is a excellent illustration:

45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:45-48 NKJ)

You refuse this elegant proof neither water or hands laying are necessary for regeneration.

Can you read? I've boldfaced to help you. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are many, speaking with tongues doesn't mean regeneration. As for laying on of hands, it doesn't say that St. Peter did not do that as well, after they BAPTIZED THEM WITH WATER.

You ask why you and the church fathers don't believe this,  and I do...its elementary.
The Fathers, sent by Christ through the Apostles, and consequently us, know what we are talking about
This  proves your rules are incorrect,

Yet again, you stop short:
48 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Your incorrect interpretation (and not infallible scripture) are contradicted here Acts 8:
Quote
12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.”
From someone sent by Christ through His Apostles and the grace of the Episcopacy from St. Peter's see of Antioch, St. John Chrysostom, he knows of what he speaks:
Quote
Observe God’s providential management. He does not suffer the speech to be finished, nor the baptism to take place upon a command of Peter, but, when He has made it evident how admirable their state of mind is, and a beginning is made of the work of teaching, and they have believed that assuredly baptism is the remission of sins, then forthwith comes the Spirit upon them. Now this is done by God’s so disposing it as to provide for Peter a mighty ground of justification...
and you don't.
Your problem is that you, not believing the scriptures, want to make the exception into the rule.

Apparently you now agree.
I'll leave it to Peter the Aleut to answer for himself.

As the dispute never was about the practice of laying on of hands, we're done.
LOL. We've been done for some time.

The scripture teaches that the Apostles, and their successors the Bishops of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church, confer the Holy Spirit in a personal pentacost by the laying on of hands.  We believe the scritptures, and you do not.

If you still insist one cannot recieve the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands, we are back to the text proving that idea wrong.
I don't recall anyone arguing that.

An analogy. Gravity is a rule because everything gets pulled downward by gravity. If however, some objects levitated, others were propelled into outer space, and only some pulled down, then gravity is no longer a rule. Its then irrelevant to what the objects do, why some fly, and other levitate.

So there is no such thing as gravity, as in space objects levitate, are propelled further into space, whereas on earth they are pulled down.  Context, context, context.  But since you don't have the context of scripture, and don't believe it anyways...I can see how you make this mistake on physics.

My point is simple. People receive the Holy Spirit when God decides they do, and His omnipresence means no medium is required. He need only "unveil" that part of Himself to the believer.
"Through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given" Acts 8:18
We have received Him because we believe the scriptures.  If you do not believe the scriptures, it one's own fault that he does not receive this grace.

There is no rule save one must believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God:

22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people's sins; keep yourself pure. (1Ti 5:22 NKJ)

NKJ  Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."
 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
 (Act 19:1-6 NKJ)

Paul noticed these believers lacked the Holy Spirit, his question reveals Paul's belief, one receives the Holy Spirit "when they believe."

Again you contradict the scriptures:
"12 they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.  14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God." Acts 8.

Learn from Simon Magnus.

The Samaritans believed, but had not yet received the Holy Spirit. Why not? Because the Apostles had not yet confered Him.

That is what the scriptures say. That you do not believe them is you problem.

As these knew only John's baptism, they had not confessed Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Therefore Paul expounds Jesus the Christ, and when they believe, they receive the Holy Spirit after Paul laid hands on them.

As with the Samaritans.

It would be a false cause fallacy to affirm they received the Holy Spirit via the laying on of hands.
No, it is heresy to disbelieve the words of scripture.  The Scriptures say they received the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the Apostles' hands, but you do not believe the scritpures, because you have neither part nor portion in this matter.

IF  they hadn't believed in Jesus, then laying on hands would accomplish nothing, otherwise Paul would have done that and not bothered preaching Jesus.

The same St. Paul who wrote "22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people's sins; keep yourself pure." (1Ti 5:22 NKJ)? We believe his words. That you reject them is your problem.

Its is wrong to believe the Omnipresent God channels the Holy Spirit through the hands of men. There is no "gap" in God's omnipresence for human hands to bridge between God and the believer.

John 19:21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

A human breath is of less substance than the human hand, but here Christ channels the Holy Spirit through a breath.  But then you reject the words of His Gospel, but that is your problem.

AND it is clear from the acts of the apostles in Acts c. 15, they did not have rules about receiving the Holy Spirit, they learned how it would happen as God did it before their eyes:
Acts 8 comes before Acts 15:8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God."

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.
 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
 14 "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
 15 "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
 (Act 15:12-15 NKJ)

They learned from actual events.

Yes, they were clothed with power from on high at Pentacoast, the birthday of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.


There was no rule about these things, for the Orthodox to make rules about it is wrong.
We merely stand firm and hold fast the Traditions received of the Apostles. Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

That you reject the scritptures and refuse to follow the Apostles' rule is your problem, and the reason why you are denied this grace.

We

Who is "we,"? as rejecting the testimony of the Apostles and the scritpures you have neither part nor portion in this matter?

lay hands to set them apart for service, not mediate Holy Spirit.

Service to whom?

That your hands do not mediate the Holy Spirit I do not doubt.

That God the Holy Spirit sometimes waits for this "commission" before infilling a believer is His honoring the occasion, but its misreading His intent to say:

Rejecting the Authority of the Apostles and the scriptures, you have neither part nor portion in this matter, no commission and no authority to speak for Him.

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
 19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
 20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!
 (Act 8:18-20 NKJ)

Peter's point is elegant, this is a gift from God, not something earned or "conjured up" by religious rite.
The Gift conferred at Pentacost and confered by the rites of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church instituted by Christ through the hands His Apostles and their successors, the Orthodox Bishops. As Our Lord says "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me." Luke 10:16.  Rejecting those to whom He spoke and their witness in scripture and their succession in the Orthodox episcopate, you have neither part nor portion in this matter.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #489 on: September 18, 2010, 03:55:32 AM »
The NT mentions different kinds of laying on of hands.

There is for the gift of the Holy Spirit, or what the Orthodox would call chrismation.

Acts 8:17-18
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

There is for the purpose of commissioning someone for a purpose, or what the Orthodox would call ordination.

Acts 6:6
Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

Acts 13:3-4
And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

1Tim 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

2Tim 1:6
Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

And there is for the purpose of healing someone, or as the Orthodox would call the anointing of the sick.

Acts 28:8
And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.

James 5:14-15
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

But regardless of the occasion for the laying on of hands, it always has to do with the Holy Spirit working and doing something through the laying on of hands. Just because God has a preferred way of doing things doesn't mean He is limited, only that He normally prefers to do things that way. He may still, and does on occasion, choose to act in a different way of His choosing. And if God should act in a way different than what He has established as being normal, it is by His choosing and not anyone else's.
I will only add to your excellent post is that what seperates the Apostles hands from say, Mr. Persson's, is that the Apostles and their successors the Bishops have the promises of Christ on them. God can choose to act in a different way, but He has promised to act according to how the Church binds and loosens.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #490 on: September 18, 2010, 08:29:30 AM »
22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people's sins; keep yourself pure. (1Ti 5:22 NKJ)

You said laying on of hands was required to receive the Holy Spirit,
No, I never said that.

I cited the text proving that wrong. Apparently you now agree.

As the dispute never was about the practice of laying on of hands, we're done.

If you still insist one cannot recieve the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands, we are back to the text proving that idea wrong.

An analogy. Gravity is a rule because everything gets pulled downward by gravity. If however, some objects levitated, others were propelled into outer space, and only some pulled down, then gravity is no longer a rule. Its then irrelevant to what the objects do, why some fly, and other levitate.

My point is simple. People receive the Holy Spirit when God decides they do, and His omnipresence means no medium is required. He need only "unveil" that part of Himself to the believer.
And yet He has chosen to do this in response to ritual actions that He has given us so that we may call upon Him.  You cannot deny that the laying on of hands to invoke the descent of the Holy Spirit upon those who hadn't yet received Him is a practice with apostolic precedent.

There is no rule save one must believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God:

NKJ  Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
 2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
 3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."
 4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
 (Act 19:1-6 NKJ)

Paul noticed these believers lacked the Holy Spirit, his question reveals Paul's belief, one receives the Holy Spirit "when they believe."

As these knew only John's baptism, they had not confessed Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Therefore Paul expounds Jesus the Christ, and when they believe, they receive the Holy Spirit after Paul laid hands on them.

It would be a false cause fallacy to affirm they received the Holy Spirit via the laying on of hands.

IF  they hadn't believed in Jesus, then laying on hands would accomplish nothing, otherwise Paul would have done that and not bothered preaching Jesus.

Its is wrong to believe the Omnipresent God channels the Holy Spirit through the hands of men. There is no "gap" in God's omnipresence for human hands to bridge between God and the believer.


AND it is clear from the acts of the apostles in Acts c. 15, they did not have rules about receiving the Holy Spirit, they learned how it would happen as God did it before their eyes:

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.
 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:
 14 "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
 15 "And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
 (Act 15:12-15 NKJ)

They learned from actual events. There was no rule about these things, for the Orthodox to make rules about it is wrong.

We lay hands to set them apart for service, not mediate Holy Spirit. That God the Holy Spirit sometimes waits for this "commission" before infilling a believer is His honoring the occasion, but its misreading His intent to say:

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
 19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
 20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!
 (Act 8:18-20 NKJ)

Peter's point is elegant, this is a gift from God, not something earned or "conjured up" by religious rite.
Herein lies your problem as I see it.  You think we believe that the works of God can be conjured up by our religious rites.  We believe no such thing.  We do only what God has commanded us to do, and He responds as He promises He will.

God didn't command it, you made a rule and that not according to knowledge.

God's purpose was to confirm the apostolic office and message by signs, including the gift of the Holy Spirit:

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
(Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)

To conclude the rite of laying on of hands invokes the descent of the Holy Spirit is therefore a Fallacy of accident, like concluding "those spotted horses are male, therefore all spotted horses are male." Sex has nothing to do with their spots.

Laying on of hands was accidental to the descent of the Holy Spirit on a person. God gifted the Holy Spirit as the apostles laid hands on believers because that confirmed both their authority and their message.

God is not establishing a rule for the church to follow, that is a complete misunderstanding of the event.



18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
 19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
 (Act 8:18-19 NKJ)

"Apostles' hands", not the  hands of others in the church. Simon did not go to anyone in the church for the power to "invoke the descent of the Holy Spirit" he went to the apostle Peter.

Peter's reply contradicts Simon and Orthodox fallacy "laying on of hands invokes the descent of the Holy Spirit":
20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! (Act 8:20 NKJ)

Human rite is accidental to any gift of God.

God is not invoked to do anything by incantation or rite, He is a Person with free will. He does as He pleases, when He pleases, for reasons that please Him, not because of a rite.

Moreover, God's omnipresence proves human hands are accidental to the gift of His Holy Spirit, there is no "gap" in His presence that requires human hands "channel" the Holy Spirit.

It is an anthropomorphism we speak of God's Holy Spirit descending upon a person, in reality He doesn't move, He already is everywhere, equally. What He does is "unveil" that part of His presence, and He may do this visibly making it appear as if He is moving in time and space, descending upon a person. But those who know their God realize in Him we live and move and have our being, and He is everywhere and does not move from place to place as His finite creatures do.



Christ's receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit at the time of His baptism is relevant to this:

10 And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.
 11 Then a voice came from heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
 (Mar 1:10-11 NKJ)

It would be absurd to say Jesus didn't have the Holy Spirit upon Him before this event, God's purpose is clear, He is confirming Christ and His message to the people. This is all for their benefit, not Christ's.

So also apostolic laying on of hands, it confirmed their authority, and their message.

The church cannot appropriate what they apostles did, to themselves, because God may not want to confirm you and your message. Its a gift from God that is according to His will and desire, not in response to a rite.

To claim laying on of hands "invokes the descent of the Holy Spirit" is to define it as Simon the magician did, magic that compels God do as man requests.

Take care not change the gift of God into a reward for following your religious rites, as though they magically invoke the descent of the Holy Spirit, then the words of Peter to Simon will also apply to you:

21 "You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.
 22 "Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
 23 "For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity." (Act 8:21-23 NKJ)

« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 08:38:30 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline czzham

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #491 on: September 18, 2010, 09:43:34 AM »
Are you, by nature, suicidal? Do you sit in a dark room seeking attention to maintain some spark of life that you're rapidly losing? The Spiritual & Scriptural width, depth & breadth of your contenders is vast & true, yet you stubbornly argue on in ignorance. What is motivating you to continue to argue? Pride? Bigotry? or just plain foolishness? Even a drunk (usually) knows better than to attempt swimming, yet you continue to drown!
If I were you, I'd (figuratively) tuck my tail between my legs & quit. There's no disgrace in throwing in the towel when one doesn't have a leg to stand on...!
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #492 on: September 18, 2010, 10:44:40 AM »
Laying on of hands was accidental to the descent of the Holy Spirit on a person. God gifted the Holy Spirit as the apostles laid hands on believers because that confirmed both their authority and their message.

God is not establishing a rule for the church to follow, that is a complete misunderstanding of the event.



18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
 19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
 (Act 8:18-19 NKJ)

"Apostles' hands", not the  hands of others in the church. Simon did not go to anyone in the church for the power to "invoke the descent of the Holy Spirit" he went to the apostle Peter.


Alfred, your problem is that you have your preconceived notions and attempt to find scriptures that back them up, rather than letting scripture speak for itself. The quality of your exegesis has continued to go downhill.

The scripture is clear that people received the Holy Spirit BY the laying of hands—not "coincidentally at the exact same moment, entirely apart from the Apostles' actions." The scriptures say no such thing. As ialmisry has pointed out quite effectively, you are the one who does not accept the plain meaning of the text.

You are right to say he went to St Peter. Most likely because he could infer that he was the one in charge, and rightly so, being a bishop. Only bishops—i.e., the Apostles' successors—have the authority to lay their hands and seal the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Orthodox way is completely consistent with scripture.

Quote
Peter's reply contradicts Simon and Orthodox fallacy "laying on of hands invokes the descent of the Holy Spirit":
20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! (Act 8:20 NKJ)

Don't put words in other people's mouths. St Peter said no such thing. He said it could not be purchased with money, which we agree with. He said it was a gift, which we also agree with. He never said it was not mediated by the laying of hands, that is your presumption speaking once again.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 10:46:37 AM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #493 on: September 18, 2010, 01:23:50 PM »
Laying on of hands was accidental to the descent of the Holy Spirit on a person. God gifted the Holy Spirit as the apostles laid hands on believers because that confirmed both their authority and their message.

God is not establishing a rule for the church to follow, that is a complete misunderstanding of the event.



18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
 19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
 (Act 8:18-19 NKJ)

"Apostles' hands", not the  hands of others in the church. Simon did not go to anyone in the church for the power to "invoke the descent of the Holy Spirit" he went to the apostle Peter.


Alfred, your problem is that you have your preconceived notions and attempt to find scriptures that back them up, rather than letting scripture speak for itself. The quality of your exegesis has continued to go downhill.

The scripture is clear that people received the Holy Spirit BY the laying of hands—not "coincidentally at the exact same moment, entirely apart from the Apostles' actions." The scriptures say no such thing. As ialmisry has pointed out quite effectively, you are the one who does not accept the plain meaning of the text.

You are right to say he went to St Peter. Most likely because he could infer that he was the one in charge, and rightly so, being a bishop. Only bishops—i.e., the Apostles' successors—have the authority to lay their hands and seal the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Orthodox way is completely consistent with scripture.

Quote
Peter's reply contradicts Simon and Orthodox fallacy "laying on of hands invokes the descent of the Holy Spirit":
20 But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! (Act 8:20 NKJ)

Don't put words in other people's mouths. St Peter said no such thing. He said it could not be purchased with money, which we agree with. He said it was a gift, which we also agree with. He never said it was not mediated by the laying of hands, that is your presumption speaking once again.

False cause fallacy. It is obvious the gift of the Holy Spirit depends upon the will of God, not the actions of a pair of human hands.

Your argument reminded me of a prank I once pulled, when wireless door locks were just introduced. I made the car horn beep every time a driver put his hand on the car...much to his amazement. He would touch, and then draw his hand back, and the horn responded!

So he came running to the group, to tell us what just happened, and we all went outside to watch, while he touched the car, and nothing happened, much to his dismay, and our riotous laughter.


Peter denied laying on of hands caused the Spirit to descend, he says its a gift from God, and gifts from God are not dependent upon humans.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 01:24:28 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #494 on: September 18, 2010, 01:59:24 PM »
Ah, I see. So God is some cosmic prankster who is fooling us all into thinking things are happening that aren't. That's fantastic. I'm sure we'll all have a hearty chortle when we reach the pearly gates.

 ::)

You are denying what scripture says. What about "the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands" doesn't make sense to you? Weren't you talking about how plain and clear the Bible is a few pages ago? Now you're denying what the Bible says in favor of some workaround that only exists in your imagination.

You can talk about fallacies all you want, but the only thing fallacious here is your misinterpretation of scripture. You opt for your traditions of anti-tradition men over the very words of the text.

Quote
Peter denied laying on of hands caused the Spirit to descend, he says its a gift from God, and gifts from God are not dependent upon humans.

No, he didn't. He said the gift of the laying of hands was not for sale. What I quoted from you above is nowhere in the holy scripture.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 02:07:04 PM by bogdan »