Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 188571 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #405 on: September 12, 2010, 08:51:21 PM »
ps: You cited a lot of mistaken people...why? I only care about apostolic doctrine, and that is found only in the Bible,
You have yet to prove that.  Besides, I showed just earlier today, and on this thread, how your doctrine is not apostolic in that it contradicts the apostolic doctrines found in the Bible.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 08:54:53 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #406 on: September 12, 2010, 08:53:07 PM »
Alfred Persson,

What you said in regards to history and Romans chapter 8 is false. You would of known that if you read the eastern fathers and the western fathers before the late Augustine. As well as the pre-Augustinian nonfathers....both east and west.

Quote
For example, Christendom has never resolved the tension between free will and predestination Paul caused when he wrote:

This is pure nonsense! The Christian East never had a tension in this area. This only became a tension in the christian west after Saint Augustine changed his mind on the issue in his later years. From that time onward, it has become an issue. You need to stop calling yourself Primitive Orthodox! It's an insult!


I am a primitive Orthodox,
And the Pharisees were the disciples of Moses. ::)
You can have the primitive, though.
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Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #407 on: September 12, 2010, 08:59:46 PM »
Alfred's phrase "punish(ing) the Earth," as regards the Second Coming, brings to mind something that I read from a Jewish author whose name escapes me. He said that there's a midrash which posits that in the Flood, God was not necessarily trying to wipe out all the people who were living on the surface of the Earth (except for Noah and his family), but to destroy the top inch-deep of soil on the ground, because that was what God had used to make Adam. ("I repent that I made man," etc.) The deaths of all the other people were sort of an ancillary accident, hence God's placement of the rainbow and the promise to never again destroy the world by flood. I mention this because Alfred seems to be using a 'salad bar' method of making claims and of trying to prove them-- pick this, and that, and a little bit of something else, whatever sounds good.

It's a characteristic of Perry Stone, Larry Huch and other U.S. evangelicals. Watch them on TV sometime and you'll see. They'll have complicated explanations of things, charts, dioramas, people dressed in pseudo-Biblical costumes, and after a while it all just gets very dunning. Then they jump into the shouting and excited part of the sermon, and you get caught up in the emotionality of it, and stop thinking about whether or not to make notes or ask questions. John Hagee loves to do these garish, full-stage displays about what he thinks the coming end of the world will look like. Many, many U.S. evangelicals have an obsession with the end of the world, and specifically with the details of the Book of Revelation, vis a vis the unending stream of different claims about what 'events of today' supposedly match up with what's 'going to happen' when it's all unleashed. That's why some of them want people to become saved - not so much so that people can come to know the love of Christ, but because they're afraid that the war of the end is right around the corner, and we're all going to get our heads chopped off by the minions of the enemy if we're not careful. Or something. Every time televangelists fail in their claims and predictions, they do not recant, they just make new claims. And new money. John Hagee makes another stage-sized chart of what the battle will look like this time. And it all starts over again. Sigh...

What's also very disturbing is the way that so many people seem to love the war imagery in the Book of Revelation... and that is part of it, but nobody loves the end! My goodness, doesn't Our Lord and Savior emerge the Victor in it? Doesn't the lion lie down with the lamb? Isn't there the New Jerusalem and everything? It's easy to forget that part.

There is an excellent lecture, "The Time is Near," by Fr. Patrick Reardon, available from Orthodox Christian Cassettes (you can also get it on a CD, the link is here. Fr. Reardon is Orthodox, and his lecture is not only highly informative but very much enjoyable to listen to as well. He reminds us of why and how we are supposed to learn something from the book: "'Behold, I am coming quickly, unless you repent.'" (The whole conference is really interesting as well.) I wish this were available as a streaming broadcast, but it doesn't seem to be, so that's the best I can do.

Once again, I have nothing against Mr. Persson, but his difficulties in the claims he has made, and in his attempts to explain them, for me only continue to point out why we need the Church as our loving guide to help us not lose our way. Alfred, the Church is not a bunch of mean people who make stuff up for no reason. They are only human, but they want to follow Jesus Christ. He is their Sovereign. There is a reason they make icons which show Him as the 'King of Kings and Great High Priest.'

That's Who He Is.
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #408 on: September 12, 2010, 09:09:59 PM »


I am a primitive Orthodox, get used to it.

No! How can you call yourself such a thing when you reject the Nicene/Constantinople 1 creed, and the fathers and witnesses that came before it?

You don't believe like them! So stop calling yourself that!


Quote
If you cannot see why there is tension between free will and predestination, given the usual exegesis of Rom 8:29, there is nothing I can say that will reach you:

What in the world are you talking about? I already told you about the origins of the usual exegesis of Rom 8:29

So what in the world are you talking about? I already told you that one of the views was actually passed on to the next generation of believers! The Apostles actually handed something down to the next generation, and it wasn't your view!

 Why should anyone care about being reached by something that wasn't passed on by the Apostles? Who cares! Give me what the Apostles passed on! Give me what was handed to the Saints!

You can keep your fluff!



Quote
The juxtaposition of foreknow and predestination cannot be denied, therefore the church has run the full gamut, from free will to no free will at all.

I already told you the history of this? Were you listening? Free will was the original view of the Church, determinism came in with Saint Augustine in his later years. Saint Augustine changed his mind on the issue later in life! Hello! Were you listening?

This means that one view was the original while the other one wasn't! We Orthodox still hold to free will, so why in the world should we care what you have to say in regards to this issue? We don't follow the error of Saint Augustine when it comes to this? So why should we care?

You really don't have anything of value when it comes to this issue! We have the original view, and so who cares what you have! What does that have to do with us?


 
Quote
The text does seem to rule out free will,

No it doesn't! You have been reading to many Presbyterian or Calvinistic commentaries. look, go and buy this commentary to Romans:
http://www.amazon.com/Romans-Ancient-Christian-Commentary-Scripture/dp/083081356X (Romans (Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture)

This was done by mostly protestants and so you shouldn't be scared to read it. They quote heretics, schismatics, as well as the Orthodox. And despite it's short comings, you will at least see that Romans chapter 8 is pro free will.  

They understood Foreknowledge as pre-science. And they understood Predestination as being according to the Pre-Science of God.


Quote
UNLESS you take it naturally as I did above, that the two legs of foreknowledge and predestination do not connect to each other, they connect to the Elect, like a one rung ladder with two legs....both actions happened to those God had already chosen...so foreknowledge is one event, predestination another., to the same people.

No, they actually connect to each other! God predestines according to His Foreknowledge. It's not that hard to understand, and all the people I quoted in the other post understood it that way.


Quote
ps: You cited a lot of mistaken people...why? I only care about apostolic doctrine, and that is found only in the Bible, not Augustine ect.

Something was handed to the Saints and it wasn't your beliefs. I find it funny that you will read modern commentaries and commentaries from the late 18 hundreds, but you refuse to listen to those that sat at the Apostles feet. You refuse to listen to those who even lived 2 to 4 generations away from the Apostles.

Christians were actually saying the samething in regards to this issue. They were saying the samething until Saint Augustine changed it in his later year!

This alone should speak volumes to you , but it doesn't.


If people are saying the samething for centuries.......then that should tell you something....HELLO!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 09:18:07 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #409 on: September 12, 2010, 09:22:39 PM »
I am a primitive Orthodox, get used to it.
If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.  - John 5:31

Considering the hornets' nest you've stirred up by insisting on your claim to primitive Orthodoxy, you would do very well to stop making this claim and wait for others to give you the title.  Claiming the title "Primitive Orthodox" for yourself only makes you look arrogant.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 09:25:48 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #410 on: September 12, 2010, 09:38:54 PM »
Years ago, as I entered I noticed the icons, turned around and left...being iconoclast at heart. I object to crosses etc also, images have no place in the "worship stream." Off to the side, pictures, crosses etc are ok, but not as an image folks might look to, as they pray...


^ Because of this, I feel we are dealing with powers beyond my ability. Call me superstitious if you want, but I have heard of too many real-life instances of what a disdain for the image of the Cross means for me to be comfortable with this anymore. So I am bowing out of this discussion.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 09:42:11 PM by bogdan »

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #411 on: September 12, 2010, 10:03:55 PM »
Alfred Persson,


How would a Mormon feel if I went to one of their forums and called myself a Primitive Mormon (and yes I'm African American)? How would they feel? What if I told them that they were all wrong, and that I (a black man) was the only one who understood Joseph Smith and Brigham Young? How would they feel about that?

What if I told them that all the original hearers of J. Smith and B. Young went astray and that I with the help of non-Mormon Commentaries was the only one to rightly understand the true doctrines of Mormonism, and so they all had to listen to me.....the one and only true Mormon?

How would they feel if I said such a thing? I don't believe the things they do and so why should I call myself such a thing?

When you first came to these boards, you pretended to be something you never were. You thought you believed in the Nicene/Constantinople 1 creed until it was shown that you didn't.

You thought you believed like the Christians of the first 4 centuries, until it was shown that you didn't.

You thought that the Christians of the first four centuries only quoted the 66 books that you hold on to and that they never quoted other Christians or pointed to other Christians in defense of what they believed.

It was shown to you that they indeed did do that!



So why are you still persistent in wanting to call yourself something you never were? Give it up! We all know you are not Primitive Orthodox! So who are you trying to fool!

The devil is the father of all lies. He helped cause our first parents to fall by slightly twisting the truth....by lying.

You come on here trying to reach us with different interpretations that have nothing to do with the Original.

Why should we care about a belief that you have that is different from what we received?

Were the Apostles lousy teachers? Did all their hearers forget what they taught?

Did all their Church plants get amnesia as soon as the Apostles died?

I say no! And I say that something indeed was handed down to the next generation of believers, and what you have wasn't it!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 10:24:09 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #412 on: September 12, 2010, 10:48:58 PM »
Alfred, have you ever read this transcript of an interview with Dr. Ben Witherington III, a professor at Asbury Theological Seminary?  I think you may find it enlightening reading.

The Problem with Evangelical Theologies
Published in Christianity Today, November 2005, Vol. 49, No. 11

Quote
So, what is the problem with evangelical theology?

It has exegetical weaknesses that are not recognized or owned up to by the various evangelical Protestant strains of theology. That's what it boils down to.

You write that in our distinctives, we are least faithful to the Word. What do you mean?

The issue is not really with Christology, the Trinity, the virginal conception, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, or the Bible as the Word of God. The issues I'm concerned about are the distinctives of Calvinist, Arminian, dispensational, or Pentecostal theology. When they try to go some particular direction that's specific to their theological system, that's precisely the point in their argument at which they are exegetically weakest.

The Calvinist system links the ideas of predestination, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints. Each of those has its own exegetical weaknesses, especially perseverance of the saints.

But the same can be said about the distinctives of Arminian theology, especially when you start talking about having an experience of perfection in this lifetime. There are problems matching that up with what the New Testament says about perfection.

The same can be said about Pentecostal theology, with its teaching about a second, definitive work of grace, and about dispensationalism, with its teaching on pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation rapture. I show in my book that all of these evangelical theological systems are exegetically vulnerable precisely in their distinctives.

And later in the same interview:
Quote
In the book, your theological critique is made on the way to discussing a larger concern.

Part of the problem is the temptation to form our theology almost independently of doing our exegesis. We run to the biblical text to shore up or find proof texts for things we already believe.

In addition, we are all children of the Enlightenment, so we've tended to treat the Bible as if it were a history of ideas, where topics like soteriology, justification, the new birth, sanctification, going on to perfection, and glorification were the main themes, and our job was to link one idea to another. But in Scripture, we're not talking about a history of ideas but about spiritual realities in people's lives, about people who have stories and encounters with God. If you read the Bible carefully, on or below the surface of all of these texts is narrative, especially the story of Christ, but also the Old Testament stories of Adam and Moses and Abraham, and the story of Christians as recounted in Acts and elsewhere in the New Testament.

I think part of the problem is that we are still doing theology in an Enlightenment frame of mind, as if it were a string of ideas that we should logically link together, and once we've produced a nice logical circle, then we're home free. The truth is that life is a lot messier than that, and the Bible is more about stories than the history of ideas that are embedded in the stories.

The full interview can be read here:  http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/november/23.66.html?start=1

You may also find it interesting that Dr. Witherington closes this conversation with statements of admiration for the exegeses of Ss. Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzus, and particularly John Chrysostom, three of the giants of the Orthodox theological tradition.

He is right, I disagree on all those subjects, I've already mentioned Predestination above...Cessationism is the correct view on the gifts (look it up), as for the Rapture, its clear that occurs AT Christ's second coming, to clear the earth of believers, so He can punish the earth without harming them:
But don't you think you're engaging in the same methodology that Dr. Witherington criticized?

No, which is why I agree he is correct regarding those subjects, eisegesis was employed, not exegesis. But they are as receptive to that judgment as you are about icons, predestination, prayer to dead saints and Mary. Neither they, or you, have a sound scriptural exegesis to stand on.

However, you are trying to smear groups, for the few odd doctrines they hold, overlooking he first cited the areas they are right in, which by the way, most of us believe...like in the Holy Trinity...etc.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 10:51:00 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #413 on: September 12, 2010, 11:10:15 PM »
Quote
No, which is why I agree he is correct regarding those subjects, eisegesis was employed, not exegesis.

What did the Pharisees, Scribes, and teachers of the law use? What do modern nonbelieving jews believe now? How do they interpret the Old Testament?

It's not about Interpreting Scripture.....anyone can do that. No! It's about interpreting it according to the rule of faith. According to Jesus, The Apostles, their disciples, and their disciples, and their disciples.....etc. Councils.....etc.

The heretics of the first 4 hundred years also interpreted Scripture.......did you know that?


 
Quote
But they are as receptive to that judgment as you are about icons, predestination, prayer to dead saints and Mary. Neither they, or you, have a sound scriptural exegesis to stand on.

So you are the only one who understands correctly? Get real! Anyone who refuses to double check their own interpretations with that of the fathers really don't have a clue on these matters.


Quote
However, you are trying to smear groups, for the few odd doctrines they hold, overlooking he first cited the areas they are right in, which by the way, most of us believe...like in the Holy Trinity...etc.

Since you reject the fathers and the Nicen/Constantinople 1 creed, I doubt if you even know what the Holy Trinity actually meant.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 11:32:01 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #414 on: September 12, 2010, 11:32:42 PM »
St. Athanasius, pray for us.   :angel:
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And you'll sleep, but they'll find you

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #415 on: September 13, 2010, 12:37:17 AM »
Alfred, have you ever read this transcript of an interview with Dr. Ben Witherington III, a professor at Asbury Theological Seminary?  I think you may find it enlightening reading.

The Problem with Evangelical Theologies
Published in Christianity Today, November 2005, Vol. 49, No. 11

Quote
So, what is the problem with evangelical theology?

It has exegetical weaknesses that are not recognized or owned up to by the various evangelical Protestant strains of theology. That's what it boils down to.

You write that in our distinctives, we are least faithful to the Word. What do you mean?

The issue is not really with Christology, the Trinity, the virginal conception, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, or the Bible as the Word of God. The issues I'm concerned about are the distinctives of Calvinist, Arminian, dispensational, or Pentecostal theology. When they try to go some particular direction that's specific to their theological system, that's precisely the point in their argument at which they are exegetically weakest.

The Calvinist system links the ideas of predestination, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints. Each of those has its own exegetical weaknesses, especially perseverance of the saints.

But the same can be said about the distinctives of Arminian theology, especially when you start talking about having an experience of perfection in this lifetime. There are problems matching that up with what the New Testament says about perfection.

The same can be said about Pentecostal theology, with its teaching about a second, definitive work of grace, and about dispensationalism, with its teaching on pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation rapture. I show in my book that all of these evangelical theological systems are exegetically vulnerable precisely in their distinctives.

And later in the same interview:
Quote
In the book, your theological critique is made on the way to discussing a larger concern.

Part of the problem is the temptation to form our theology almost independently of doing our exegesis. We run to the biblical text to shore up or find proof texts for things we already believe.

In addition, we are all children of the Enlightenment, so we've tended to treat the Bible as if it were a history of ideas, where topics like soteriology, justification, the new birth, sanctification, going on to perfection, and glorification were the main themes, and our job was to link one idea to another. But in Scripture, we're not talking about a history of ideas but about spiritual realities in people's lives, about people who have stories and encounters with God. If you read the Bible carefully, on or below the surface of all of these texts is narrative, especially the story of Christ, but also the Old Testament stories of Adam and Moses and Abraham, and the story of Christians as recounted in Acts and elsewhere in the New Testament.

I think part of the problem is that we are still doing theology in an Enlightenment frame of mind, as if it were a string of ideas that we should logically link together, and once we've produced a nice logical circle, then we're home free. The truth is that life is a lot messier than that, and the Bible is more about stories than the history of ideas that are embedded in the stories.

The full interview can be read here:  http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/november/23.66.html?start=1

You may also find it interesting that Dr. Witherington closes this conversation with statements of admiration for the exegeses of Ss. Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzus, and particularly John Chrysostom, three of the giants of the Orthodox theological tradition.

He is right, I disagree on all those subjects, I've already mentioned Predestination above...Cessationism is the correct view on the gifts (look it up), as for the Rapture, its clear that occurs AT Christ's second coming, to clear the earth of believers, so He can punish the earth without harming them:
But don't you think you're engaging in the same methodology that Dr. Witherington criticized?

No, which is why I agree he is correct regarding those subjects, eisegesis was employed, not exegesis. But they are as receptive to that judgment as you are about icons, predestination, prayer to dead saints and Mary. Neither they, or you, have a sound scriptural exegesis to stand on.
And who says you do?  YOU?  I've already shown you how your exegesis is unbiblical.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #416 on: September 13, 2010, 08:37:56 AM »
ps: You cited a lot of mistaken people...why? I only care about apostolic doctrine, and that is found only in the Bible,
You have yet to prove that.  Besides, I showed just earlier today, and on this thread, how your doctrine is not apostolic in that it contradicts the apostolic doctrines found in the Bible.

You did? Where?

 11 So the king of Israel answered and said, "Tell him,`Let not the one who puts on his armor boast like the one who takes it off.'" (1Ki 20:11 NKJ)

Did it happen without me?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 08:38:53 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #417 on: September 13, 2010, 09:16:51 AM »
ps: You cited a lot of mistaken people...why? I only care about apostolic doctrine, and that is found only in the Bible,
You have yet to prove that.  Besides, I showed just earlier today, and on this thread, how your doctrine is not apostolic in that it contradicts the apostolic doctrines found in the Bible.

You did? Where?

 11 So the king of Israel answered and said, "Tell him,`Let not the one who puts on his armor boast like the one who takes it off.'" (1Ki 20:11 NKJ)

Did it happen without me?

Not standing fast nor holding firm to the Traditions delieverd by the Apostles (2 Thess. 2:15), whether by word of mouth or epistle, you have fallen prey to the wolf of souls (2 Thess. 3:6; John 9:41), who is using you as his mouthpiece to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, the one sin Christ tells us is unforgiven. (Mark 3:29). You were missing in inaction.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #418 on: September 13, 2010, 09:37:57 AM »
ps: You cited a lot of mistaken people...why? I only care about apostolic doctrine, and that is found only in the Bible,
You have yet to prove that.  Besides, I showed just earlier today, and on this thread, how your doctrine is not apostolic in that it contradicts the apostolic doctrines found in the Bible.

You did? Where?

 11 So the king of Israel answered and said, "Tell him,`Let not the one who puts on his armor boast like the one who takes it off.'" (1Ki 20:11 NKJ)

Did it happen without me?

Not standing fast nor holding firm to the Traditions delieverd by the Apostles (2 Thess. 2:15), whether by word of mouth or epistle, you have fallen prey to the wolf of souls (2 Thess. 3:6; John 9:41), who is using you as his mouthpiece to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, the one sin Christ tells us is unforgiven. (Mark 3:29). You were missing in inaction.

A verse taken out of context,is a pretext.

The context is time, Paul said that before the NT was finished, another 21 bible books were written after that.    

Even in 2 Thessalonians we see the process of oral tradition becoming written scripture:
 

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? (2Th 2:5 RSV)    

The process continued throughout the writing of the NT (AD. 68-70):      

17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;    

18 they said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions."    

(Jud 1:17-18 RSV)    

 

2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:    


Paul wrote 2 Tim 3:15ff  about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:    


As for your slander, that is the refuge of scoundrels who can't admit they lost the argument.

You don't want to be known as a scoundrel, do you? Stop the slander and smear then, and address issues, scripture, facts.

Leave the foaming of the mouth rants to others.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 09:41:00 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #419 on: September 13, 2010, 10:11:21 AM »
As for your slander, that is the refuge of scoundrels who can't admit they lost the argument.

You don't want to be known as a scoundrel, do you? Stop the slander and smear then, and address issues, scripture, facts.

Leave the foaming of the mouth rants to others.

Tell us Alfred, what is the above bolded text?  Transference?   Projection?   ???

http://www.crisiscounseling.com/Articles/Transference.htm
Quote
What is Transference?  During transference, people turn into a "biological time machine". A nerve is struck when someone says or does something that reminds you of your past. This creates an "emotional time warp" that transfers your emotional past and your psychological needs into the present. In less poetic terms, a transference reaction means that you are reacting to someone in terms of what you need to see, you are afraid of or what you see when you know very little about the person. This all happens without you knowing why you feel and react the way you do.

What Is Projection? Some people refer to transference as a "projection." In this case you are projecting your own feelings, emotions or motivations into another person without realizing your reaction is really more about you than it is about the other person. In a life filled with transference, your job may be "the family reunion you are avoiding and you are forced to go to each day." In other cases of projection, your girlfriend may remind you of all the irritating things your mother did when you were growing up. Love at first sight is usually a projection – especially if it ends in disaster and you could have seen it coming.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #420 on: September 13, 2010, 10:14:43 AM »
St. Athanasius, pray for us.   :angel:

A fundamental feature of the "departed" is they are departed, not present and so cannot hear you.

Scripture is clear the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, he cannot hear you.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #421 on: September 13, 2010, 10:20:11 AM »
As for your slander, that is the refuge of scoundrels who can't admit they lost the argument.

You don't want to be known as a scoundrel, do you? Stop the slander and smear then, and address issues, scripture, facts.

Leave the foaming of the mouth rants to others.

Tell us Alfred, what is the above bolded text?  Transference?   Projection?   ???

http://www.crisiscounseling.com/Articles/Transference.htm
Quote
What is Transference?  During transference, people turn into a "biological time machine". A nerve is struck when someone says or does something that reminds you of your past. This creates an "emotional time warp" that transfers your emotional past and your psychological needs into the present. In less poetic terms, a transference reaction means that you are reacting to someone in terms of what you need to see, you are afraid of or what you see when you know very little about the person. This all happens without you knowing why you feel and react the way you do.

What Is Projection? Some people refer to transference as a "projection." In this case you are projecting your own feelings, emotions or motivations into another person without realizing your reaction is really more about you than it is about the other person. In a life filled with transference, your job may be "the family reunion you are avoiding and you are forced to go to each day." In other cases of projection, your girlfriend may remind you of all the irritating things your mother did when you were growing up. Love at first sight is usually a projection – especially if it ends in disaster and you could have seen it coming.

I agree, you are projecting.

Next time, have an argument, its better.

To illustrate:

You believe the dead can hear the living, how is it then Saints Abraham and Israel cannot hear us:

 16 Doubtless You are our Father, Though Abraham was ignorant of us, And Israel does not acknowledge us. You, O LORD, are our Father; Our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name. (Isa 63:16 NKJ)

And why did Saint Paul exclude Saint Onesiphorus from the his communion with Saint Timothy:

 15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:15-18 NKJ)

Isn't it rude to exclude the saint you are talking about during a communion of the saints?

How come Saint Onesiphorus didn't butt in...."Hey, I heard that."


Why does Paul speak about him as though he cannot hear?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #422 on: September 13, 2010, 10:20:39 AM »
Alfred Persson,


How would a Mormon feel if I went to one of their forums and called myself a Primitive Mormon (and yes I'm African American)? How would they feel? What if I told them that they were all wrong, and that I (a black man) was the only one who understood Joseph Smith and Brigham Young? How would they feel about that?

What if I told them that all the original hearers of J. Smith and B. Young went astray and that I with the help of non-Mormon Commentaries was the only one to rightly understand the true doctrines of Mormonism, and so they all had to listen to me.....the one and only true Mormon?

How would they feel if I said such a thing? I don't believe the things they do and so why should I call myself such a thing?

When you first came to these boards, you pretended to be something you never were. You thought you believed in the Nicene/Constantinople 1 creed until it was shown that you didn't.

You thought you believed like the Christians of the first 4 centuries, until it was shown that you didn't.

You thought that the Christians of the first four centuries only quoted the 66 books that you hold on to and that they never quoted other Christians or pointed to other Christians in defense of what they believed.

It was shown to you that they indeed did do that!



So why are you still persistent in wanting to call yourself something you never were? Give it up! We all know you are not Primitive Orthodox! So who are you trying to fool!

The devil is the father of all lies. He helped cause our first parents to fall by slightly twisting the truth....by lying.

You come on here trying to reach us with different interpretations that have nothing to do with the Original.

Why should we care about a belief that you have that is different from what we received?

Were the Apostles lousy teachers? Did all their hearers forget what they taught?

Did all their Church plants get amnesia as soon as the Apostles died?

I say no! And I say that something indeed was handed down to the next generation of believers, and what you have wasn't it!

Bump!
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #423 on: September 13, 2010, 10:22:06 AM »


I am a primitive Orthodox, get used to it.

No! How can you call yourself such a thing when you reject the Nicene/Constantinople 1 creed, and the fathers and witnesses that came before it?

You don't believe like them! So stop calling yourself that!


Quote
If you cannot see why there is tension between free will and predestination, given the usual exegesis of Rom 8:29, there is nothing I can say that will reach you:

What in the world are you talking about? I already told you about the origins of the usual exegesis of Rom 8:29

So what in the world are you talking about? I already told you that one of the views was actually passed on to the next generation of believers! The Apostles actually handed something down to the next generation, and it wasn't your view!

 Why should anyone care about being reached by something that wasn't passed on by the Apostles? Who cares! Give me what the Apostles passed on! Give me what was handed to the Saints!

You can keep your fluff!



Quote
The juxtaposition of foreknow and predestination cannot be denied, therefore the church has run the full gamut, from free will to no free will at all.

I already told you the history of this? Were you listening? Free will was the original view of the Church, determinism came in with Saint Augustine in his later years. Saint Augustine changed his mind on the issue later in life! Hello! Were you listening?

This means that one view was the original while the other one wasn't! We Orthodox still hold to free will, so why in the world should we care what you have to say in regards to this issue? We don't follow the error of Saint Augustine when it comes to this? So why should we care?

You really don't have anything of value when it comes to this issue! We have the original view, and so who cares what you have! What does that have to do with us?


 
Quote
The text does seem to rule out free will,

No it doesn't! You have been reading to many Presbyterian or Calvinistic commentaries. look, go and buy this commentary to Romans:
http://www.amazon.com/Romans-Ancient-Christian-Commentary-Scripture/dp/083081356X (Romans (Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture)

This was done by mostly protestants and so you shouldn't be scared to read it. They quote heretics, schismatics, as well as the Orthodox. And despite it's short comings, you will at least see that Romans chapter 8 is pro free will.  

They understood Foreknowledge as pre-science. And they understood Predestination as being according to the Pre-Science of God.


Quote
UNLESS you take it naturally as I did above, that the two legs of foreknowledge and predestination do not connect to each other, they connect to the Elect, like a one rung ladder with two legs....both actions happened to those God had already chosen...so foreknowledge is one event, predestination another., to the same people.

No, they actually connect to each other! God predestines according to His Foreknowledge. It's not that hard to understand, and all the people I quoted in the other post understood it that way.


Quote
ps: You cited a lot of mistaken people...why? I only care about apostolic doctrine, and that is found only in the Bible, not Augustine ect.

Something was handed to the Saints and it wasn't your beliefs. I find it funny that you will read modern commentaries and commentaries from the late 18 hundreds, but you refuse to listen to those that sat at the Apostles feet. You refuse to listen to those who even lived 2 to 4 generations away from the Apostles.

Christians were actually saying the samething in regards to this issue. They were saying the samething until Saint Augustine changed it in his later year!

This alone should speak volumes to you , but it doesn't.


If people are saying the samething for centuries.......then that should tell you something....HELLO!


Bump!

Why are you evading?

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #424 on: September 13, 2010, 10:24:46 AM »
Quote
No, which is why I agree he is correct regarding those subjects, eisegesis was employed, not exegesis.

What did the Pharisees, Scribes, and teachers of the law use? What do modern nonbelieving jews believe now? How do they interpret the Old Testament?

It's not about Interpreting Scripture.....anyone can do that. No! It's about interpreting it according to the rule of faith. According to Jesus, The Apostles, their disciples, and their disciples, and their disciples.....etc. Councils.....etc.

The heretics of the first 4 hundred years also interpreted Scripture.......did you know that?


 
Quote
But they are as receptive to that judgment as you are about icons, predestination, prayer to dead saints and Mary. Neither they, or you, have a sound scriptural exegesis to stand on.

So you are the only one who understands correctly? Get real! Anyone who refuses to double check their own interpretations with that of the fathers really don't have a clue on these matters.


Quote
However, you are trying to smear groups, for the few odd doctrines they hold, overlooking he first cited the areas they are right in, which by the way, most of us believe...like in the Holy Trinity...etc.

Since you reject the fathers and the Nicen/Constantinople 1 creed, I doubt if you even know what the Holy Trinity actually meant.

Apparently you argue as heretics and deniers of Christ interpret scripture, anyone who interprets scripture is a heretic or denier of Christ.

Are you sure the Early Church fathers are all heretics?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 10:25:14 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #425 on: September 13, 2010, 10:26:52 AM »
I agree, you are projecting.

Nope, you are.  Yet, that is such an immature game for both our sakes.   :D

Next time, have an argument, its better.

You're not having an argument with us.  You're transferring and projecting negative images of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

To illustrate:

You believe the dead can hear the living, how is it then Saints Abraham and Israel cannot hear us:

 16 Doubtless You are our Father, Though Abraham was ignorant of us, And Israel does not acknowledge us. You, O LORD, are our Father; Our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name. (Isa 63:16 NKJ)

Isaiah 63:15-20 is a prayer, not a proof-text.

And why did Saint Paul exclude Saint Onesiphorus from the his communion with Saint Timothy:

 15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:15-18 NKJ)

Isn't it rude to exclude the saint you are talking about during a communion of the saints?

How come Saint Onesiphorus didn't butt in...."Hey, I heard that."

Why does Paul speak about him as though he cannot hear?

How do you know that St. Onesiphorus was deceased when Paul wrote this?   ???

Alfred, you need help....  Lord have Mercy.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #426 on: September 13, 2010, 10:29:58 AM »


I am a primitive Orthodox, get used to it.

No! How can you call yourself such a thing when you reject the Nicene/Constantinople 1 creed, and the fathers and witnesses that came before it?

You don't believe like them! So stop calling yourself that!


Quote
If you cannot see why there is tension between free will and predestination, given the usual exegesis of Rom 8:29, there is nothing I can say that will reach you:

What in the world are you talking about? I already told you about the origins of the usual exegesis of Rom 8:29

So what in the world are you talking about? I already told you that one of the views was actually passed on to the next generation of believers! The Apostles actually handed something down to the next generation, and it wasn't your view!

 Why should anyone care about being reached by something that wasn't passed on by the Apostles? Who cares! Give me what the Apostles passed on! Give me what was handed to the Saints!

You can keep your fluff!



Quote
The juxtaposition of foreknow and predestination cannot be denied, therefore the church has run the full gamut, from free will to no free will at all.

I already told you the history of this? Were you listening? Free will was the original view of the Church, determinism came in with Saint Augustine in his later years. Saint Augustine changed his mind on the issue later in life! Hello! Were you listening?

This means that one view was the original while the other one wasn't! We Orthodox still hold to free will, so why in the world should we care what you have to say in regards to this issue? We don't follow the error of Saint Augustine when it comes to this? So why should we care?

You really don't have anything of value when it comes to this issue! We have the original view, and so who cares what you have! What does that have to do with us?


 
Quote
The text does seem to rule out free will,

No it doesn't! You have been reading to many Presbyterian or Calvinistic commentaries. look, go and buy this commentary to Romans:
http://www.amazon.com/Romans-Ancient-Christian-Commentary-Scripture/dp/083081356X (Romans (Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture)

This was done by mostly protestants and so you shouldn't be scared to read it. They quote heretics, schismatics, as well as the Orthodox. And despite it's short comings, you will at least see that Romans chapter 8 is pro free will.  

They understood Foreknowledge as pre-science. And they understood Predestination as being according to the Pre-Science of God.


Quote
UNLESS you take it naturally as I did above, that the two legs of foreknowledge and predestination do not connect to each other, they connect to the Elect, like a one rung ladder with two legs....both actions happened to those God had already chosen...so foreknowledge is one event, predestination another., to the same people.

No, they actually connect to each other! God predestines according to His Foreknowledge. It's not that hard to understand, and all the people I quoted in the other post understood it that way.


Quote
ps: You cited a lot of mistaken people...why? I only care about apostolic doctrine, and that is found only in the Bible, not Augustine ect.

Something was handed to the Saints and it wasn't your beliefs. I find it funny that you will read modern commentaries and commentaries from the late 18 hundreds, but you refuse to listen to those that sat at the Apostles feet. You refuse to listen to those who even lived 2 to 4 generations away from the Apostles.

Christians were actually saying the samething in regards to this issue. They were saying the samething until Saint Augustine changed it in his later year!

This alone should speak volumes to you , but it doesn't.


If people are saying the samething for centuries.......then that should tell you something....HELLO!


Bump!

Why are you evading?



No evading it, I am a primitive Orthodox, what the Orthodox were before they added to the apostolic faith seen in the NT, their icons and talking to the departed, and Marian dogmas...and rule upon rule, here a little, there a little, as though under a curse from God:

 13 But the word of the LORD was to them, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little," That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught. (Isa 28:13 NKJ)

We primitive Orthodox remain free in Christ, not bound by your rules. An analogy:

 19 "Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
 20 "but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
 (Act 15:19-20 NKJ)


« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 10:31:49 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #427 on: September 13, 2010, 10:35:07 AM »
I agree, you are projecting.

Nope, you are.  Yet, that is such an immature game for both our sakes.   :D

Next time, have an argument, its better.

You're not having an argument with us.  You're transferring and projecting negative images of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

To illustrate:

You believe the dead can hear the living, how is it then Saints Abraham and Israel cannot hear us:

 16 Doubtless You are our Father, Though Abraham was ignorant of us, And Israel does not acknowledge us. You, O LORD, are our Father; Our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name. (Isa 63:16 NKJ)

Isaiah 63:15-20 is a prayer, not a proof-text.

And why did Saint Paul exclude Saint Onesiphorus from the his communion with Saint Timothy:

 15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:15-18 NKJ)

Isn't it rude to exclude the saint you are talking about during a communion of the saints?

How come Saint Onesiphorus didn't butt in...."Hey, I heard that."

Why does Paul speak about him as though he cannot hear?

How do you know that St. Onesiphorus was deceased when Paul wrote this?   ???

Alfred, you need help....  Lord have Mercy.

Its implicit, Paul talks about him in the third person, and would have greeted him personally, not just his household, if still alive:

 19 Greet Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus. (2Ti 4:19 NKJ)



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #428 on: September 13, 2010, 10:55:42 AM »
St. Athanasius, pray for us.   :angel:

A fundamental feature of the "departed" is they are departed, not present and so cannot hear you.

Scripture is clear the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, he cannot hear you.
I Kingdoms (I Samuel) 28 " 8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name." 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!" 14Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.   15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
St Luke the Evangelists: 9:30 "And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem." vs. Deut. 34:5 "And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said."

Revelation of St. John the Divine: 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Quote
Particles of relics of saints usually are embedded in altar tables during consecration of churches.

The relics of the saints are venerated because in Orthodox belief the body remains temple of the Holy Spirit even after death.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem   (315-386) writes:

"Though the soul is not present a power resides in the bodies of the saints because of the righteous soul which has for so many years dwelt in it, or used it as its minister."
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Relics
Quote
The antimension, (from the Greek: "instead of the table"; in Slavonic: antimins), is among the most important furnishings of the altar in Orthodox Christian liturgical traditions. It is a rectangular piece of cloth, of either linen or silk, typically decorated with representations of the entombment of Christ, the four Evangelists, and scriptural passages related to the Eucharist. A small relic of a martyr is sewn into it. The Eucharist cannot be celebrated without an antimension.

The antimension must be consecrated and signed by a bishop. The antimension and the chrism are the means by which a bishop indicates his permission for priests under his omophorion to celebrate the Divine Liturgy and Holy Mysteries in his absence, being in effect the church’s license to conduct divine services. If a bishop were to withdraw his permission to serve the Mysteries, he would do so by taking back the antimension and chrism from the priest. Whenever a bishop visits a church or monastery under his omophorion, he will enter the altar and inspect the antimension to be sure that it has been properly cared for, and that it is in fact the one that he issued.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Antimension

Quote
In the early days of Christianity when the Church was heavily persecuted, the Christians met in underground burial places where they celebrated the Eucharist on the graves of martyred saints. After the Church was recognized this custom was continued by placing relics in the altar table during the consecration of the church. This is a reminder that the Church was built on the blood of the martyrs and their faith in the Lord.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Consecration_of_a_church

Quote
Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.
This, then, is the account of the blessed Polycarp, who, being the twelfth that was martyred in Smyrna (reckoning those also of Philadelphia), yet occupies a place of his own in the memory of all men, insomuch that he is everywhere spoken of by the heathen themselves. He was not merely an illustrious teacher, but also a pre-eminent martyr, whose martyrdom all desire to imitate, as having been altogether consistent with the Gospel of Christ. For, having through patience overcome the unjust governor, and thus acquired the crown of immortality, he now, with the apostles and all the righteous [in heaven], rejoicingly glorifies God, even the Father, and blesses our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour of our souls, the Governor of our bodies, and the Shepherd of the Catholic Church throughout the world.
The Account of the Martyrdom of the Apostle St. John's disciple St. Polycarp, from the copy of his disciple St. Iranaeus, c. 155.

St. Matthew 22: 24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?
St. Luke 20:But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”




« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 10:57:38 AM by ialmisry »
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #429 on: September 13, 2010, 10:57:31 AM »
This is all just proving what I and a few others said at the beginning of Alfred's very first thread here: you're wasting your time.

He's made it abundantly clear that he does not have any interest whatsoever in learning about Orthodoxy, only in proselytizing to them.

The longer he can stand obstinately entrenched in his own belief system, stubbornly refusing to give an inch, the more likely it is that one of you will get angry and give him the persecution (name-calling, moderator warning, etc.) that he is so anxious to get so he can seize on it and triumphantly proclaim that the Orthodox couldn't stand the white hot light of the Spirit shining through him. ;)

Why waste time (and bandwidth)?  The correct Orthodox positions have been eloquently stated and defended here (and in all Alfred's other threads) several times over. 

Just leave the info here for all to see and do what the EO's in my life have been teaching me:  TRUST THE HOLY SPIRIT!  He is stronger than most of us give Him credit for and He will indeed "lead us into all Truth".

So calm down, wish Alfred well, and enjoy the peace of Christ today! :)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #430 on: September 13, 2010, 11:04:39 AM »
This is all just proving what I and a few others said at the beginning of Alfred's very first thread here: you're wasting your time.

He's made it abundantly clear that he does not have any interest whatsoever in learning about Orthodoxy, only in proselytizing to them.

The longer he can stand obstinately entrenched in his own belief system, stubbornly refusing to give an inch, the more likely it is that one of you will get angry and give him the persecution (name-calling, moderator warning, etc.) that he is so anxious to get so he can seize on it and triumphantly proclaim that the Orthodox couldn't stand the white hot light of the Spirit shining through him. ;)

Why waste time (and bandwidth)?  The correct Orthodox positions have been eloquently stated and defended here (and in all Alfred's other threads) several times over. 

Just leave the info here for all to see and do what the EO's in my life have been teaching me:  TRUST THE HOLY SPIRIT!  He is stronger than most of us give Him credit for and He will indeed "lead us into all Truth".

So calm down, wish Alfred well, and enjoy the peace of Christ today! :)
Indeed!  Mr. Persson should be allowed to continue to post, as we know the purpose:

http://www.ratemymotivational.com/motivationals/13042-MISTAKES-It_could_be_that_the_purpose_of_your_life_is_only_to_serve_as_a_warning_to_other.jpg
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #431 on: September 13, 2010, 11:07:34 AM »
And why did Saint Paul exclude Saint Onesiphorus from the his communion with Saint Timothy:

 15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:15-18 NKJ)

Isn't it rude to exclude the saint you are talking about during a communion of the saints?

How come Saint Onesiphorus didn't butt in...."Hey, I heard that."


Why does Paul speak about him as though he cannot hear?

It clearly hasn't occurred to you that the Apostle Paul could have greeted Onesiphorus directly, and did not leave a written record of that greeting.

In any case, it's good to see that at least you do agree that prayer for the departed is profitable and Scriptural (v.18).

Is the hymn by Samuel John Stone "The Church's One Foundation" in your repertoire? It is (or at least used to be) in Protestant hymnals.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #432 on: September 13, 2010, 11:12:39 AM »
ps: You cited a lot of mistaken people...why? I only care about apostolic doctrine, and that is found only in the Bible,
You have yet to prove that.  Besides, I showed just earlier today, and on this thread, how your doctrine is not apostolic in that it contradicts the apostolic doctrines found in the Bible.

You did? Where?

Here:
there is no problem with his approach at all,
There is a problem when you would isolate this doctrine from the rest of apostolic doctrine and make this confession of faith sufficient in and of itself for salvation.  In keeping with the Gospel of our Savior, the Apostles Peter and Paul ALSO preached baptism for the remission of sins and even practiced what they preached.  For instance:

And they (Ss. Paul and Silas) said (to the Philippian jailer), "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their wounds, and he was baptized at once, with all his family.  - Acts 16:31-33

According to your interpretation of Romans 10:9 (and likewise, Acts 16:31), simple confession of and belief in the Lord Jesus Christ should have been sufficient for the jailer's salvation, but that's not what we see in the Scriptures.  With Paul, Silas, and the Philippian jailer, belief in Christ necessarily led to baptism.  This belief in Christ manifesting itself in baptism, then, is the formula God has given us to follow if we desire to be saved and become His disciples.
 (Have you ever thought that baptism itself is a confession of faith?)


except with your tradition of laying on of hands,
Which actually has apostolic precedent:

Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.  - Acts 8:14-17

If the Apostles Peter and John, who both wrote books now contained in our NT, thought it necessary to lay their hands on the newly baptized that they may receive the Holy Spirit, how much more important is it for us who seek to follow their example that we do the same?


Note how I point out that Ss. Paul and Silas lead the Philippian jailer through confession of faith to baptism, thus refuting your claim that confession of faith alone is enough.  Note also how I point out that chrismation (the laying on of hands) was thought necessary by the Apostles Peter and John, thus refuting your claim that this is purely a man-made tradition with no apostolic foundation.

Did it happen without me?
You keep coming back to this thread, yet you cannot read that which clearly refutes your arguments, and using your own tactics? ???
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 11:19:40 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #433 on: September 13, 2010, 12:48:36 PM »

A fundamental feature of the "departed" is they are departed, not present and so cannot hear you.

Scripture is clear the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, he cannot hear you.


So... those who have died in Christ do not have eternal life? You deny the communion of the saints? Wow, even Martin Luther didn't do that. You act like your Bible does not contain a Book of Revelation, in which the saints continue to worship God.

Wow, that's a lot to ask. And you wonder why we think you're an apostate.

You say your faith depends on Scripture. You are ignoring this:

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -Rev. 5:8

And this:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.  (Heb. 12:1)


Have a look-see over here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_of_Saints

(And here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasius_of_Alexandria)


Alfred's words are what happens when you sever yourself from the Body of Christ, and you don't read or hear about the real Church Fathers. You don't have that informative background. It's as if a history student didn't know about key battles or presidents-- as if they presented you with a paper on the American Revolution that said there never was a Battle of Bunker Hill. You'd scratch your head.

He makes himself to be such an admirer of St. Paul. Well, who was it who said "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you'"? (1 Cor. 12:21)
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #434 on: September 13, 2010, 11:36:32 PM »

A fundamental feature of the "departed" is they are departed, not present and so cannot hear you.

Scripture is clear the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, he cannot hear you.


So... those who have died in Christ do not have eternal life? You deny the communion of the saints? Wow, even Martin Luther didn't do that. You act like your Bible does not contain a Book of Revelation, in which the saints continue to worship God.

Wow, that's a lot to ask. And you wonder why we think you're an apostate.

You say your faith depends on Scripture. You are ignoring this:

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -Rev. 5:8

And this:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.  (Heb. 12:1)


Have a look-see over here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_of_Saints

(And here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasius_of_Alexandria)


Alfred's words are what happens when you sever yourself from the Body of Christ, and you don't read or hear about the real Church Fathers. You don't have that informative background. It's as if a history student didn't know about key battles or presidents-- as if they presented you with a paper on the American Revolution that said there never was a Battle of Bunker Hill. You'd scratch your head.

He makes himself to be such an admirer of St. Paul. Well, who was it who said "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you'"? (1 Cor. 12:21)

I don't deny the church is a communion of saints, I do deny the absurd idea it is a telepathic network linking the living to the dead.

Its evident SaintPaul didn't believe Saint Onesiphorus could hear him discuss his family with Saint Timothy, during their "communion of the saints":

16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:16-18 NKJ)

We have modern day proof "communion of the saints" is not a telepathic network, those who claim to belong to this "communion of the saints" all have telephones to call each other.




« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 11:38:45 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #435 on: September 13, 2010, 11:46:04 PM »

A fundamental feature of the "departed" is they are departed, not present and so cannot hear you.

Scripture is clear the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, he cannot hear you.


So... those who have died in Christ do not have eternal life? You deny the communion of the saints? Wow, even Martin Luther didn't do that. You act like your Bible does not contain a Book of Revelation, in which the saints continue to worship God.

Wow, that's a lot to ask. And you wonder why we think you're an apostate.

You say your faith depends on Scripture. You are ignoring this:

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -Rev. 5:8

And this:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.  (Heb. 12:1)


Have a look-see over here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_of_Saints

(And here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasius_of_Alexandria)


Alfred's words are what happens when you sever yourself from the Body of Christ, and you don't read or hear about the real Church Fathers. You don't have that informative background. It's as if a history student didn't know about key battles or presidents-- as if they presented you with a paper on the American Revolution that said there never was a Battle of Bunker Hill. You'd scratch your head.

He makes himself to be such an admirer of St. Paul. Well, who was it who said "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you'"? (1 Cor. 12:21)

I don't deny the church is a communion of saints, I do deny the absurd idea it is a telepathic network linking the living to the dead.

Its evident SaintPaul didn't believe Saint Onesiphorus could hear him discuss his family with Saint Timothy, during their "communion of the saints":

16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:16-18 NKJ)

We have modern day proof "communion of the saints" is not a telepathic network, those who claim to belong to this "communion of the saints" all have telephones to call each other.
Revelation of St. John the Divine: 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


St. Matthew 22: 24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?
St. Luke 20:But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #436 on: September 13, 2010, 11:51:05 PM »
ps: You cited a lot of mistaken people...why? I only care about apostolic doctrine, and that is found only in the Bible,
You have yet to prove that.  Besides, I showed just earlier today, and on this thread, how your doctrine is not apostolic in that it contradicts the apostolic doctrines found in the Bible.

You did? Where?

Here:
there is no problem with his approach at all,
There is a problem when you would isolate this doctrine from the rest of apostolic doctrine and make this confession of faith sufficient in and of itself for salvation.  In keeping with the Gospel of our Savior, the Apostles Peter and Paul ALSO preached baptism for the remission of sins and even practiced what they preached.  For instance:

And they (Ss. Paul and Silas) said (to the Philippian jailer), "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their wounds, and he was baptized at once, with all his family.  - Acts 16:31-33

According to your interpretation of Romans 10:9 (and likewise, Acts 16:31), simple confession of and belief in the Lord Jesus Christ should have been sufficient for the jailer's salvation, but that's not what we see in the Scriptures.  With Paul, Silas, and the Philippian jailer, belief in Christ necessarily led to baptism.  This belief in Christ manifesting itself in baptism, then, is the formula God has given us to follow if we desire to be saved and become His disciples.
 (Have you ever thought that baptism itself is a confession of faith?)


except with your tradition of laying on of hands,
Which actually has apostolic precedent:

Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.  - Acts 8:14-17

If the Apostles Peter and John, who both wrote books now contained in our NT, thought it necessary to lay their hands on the newly baptized that they may receive the Holy Spirit, how much more important is it for us who seek to follow their example that we do the same?


Note how I point out that Ss. Paul and Silas lead the Philippian jailer through confession of faith to baptism, thus refuting your claim that confession of faith alone is enough.  Note also how I point out that chrismation (the laying on of hands) was thought necessary by the Apostles Peter and John, thus refuting your claim that this is purely a man-made tradition with no apostolic foundation.

Did it happen without me?
You keep coming back to this thread, yet you cannot read that which clearly refutes your arguments, and using your own tactics? ???

Your method is unscientific. Your conclusions are essentially a "hasty generalization" fallacy. You focus on a few texts which your biased opinion accepts as the "norm", then any text which doesn't conform to that picture is classified "an exception that proves the rule."

A scientific (unbiased) method would inspect all the related texts, and from them all determine if a "rule" can be proposed for the "phenomena."

If you did that, then you would conclude laying on of hands served a different function than "communicating the Holy Spirit."

It was a formality, a way of "setting apart" the one being chosen for a specific duty, from the rest of the community.

As God is infinite, His Holy Spirit omnipresent, He isn't channeled by matter from one place to another, He already is everywhere.


Evidently the Orthodox have compartmentalized the doctrine of God's omnipresence, from affecting their rules about laying on of hands.

Compartmentalization is characteristic of an irrational conclusion, an unscientific biased conclusion that does not conform to the facts, hence by definition, is untrue.


« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 11:55:09 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #437 on: September 13, 2010, 11:58:52 PM »

A fundamental feature of the "departed" is they are departed, not present and so cannot hear you.

Scripture is clear the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, he cannot hear you.


So... those who have died in Christ do not have eternal life? You deny the communion of the saints? Wow, even Martin Luther didn't do that. You act like your Bible does not contain a Book of Revelation, in which the saints continue to worship God.

Wow, that's a lot to ask. And you wonder why we think you're an apostate.

You say your faith depends on Scripture. You are ignoring this:

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -Rev. 5:8

And this:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.  (Heb. 12:1)


Have a look-see over here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_of_Saints

(And here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasius_of_Alexandria)


Alfred's words are what happens when you sever yourself from the Body of Christ, and you don't read or hear about the real Church Fathers. You don't have that informative background. It's as if a history student didn't know about key battles or presidents-- as if they presented you with a paper on the American Revolution that said there never was a Battle of Bunker Hill. You'd scratch your head.

He makes himself to be such an admirer of St. Paul. Well, who was it who said "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you'"? (1 Cor. 12:21)

I don't deny the church is a communion of saints, I do deny the absurd idea it is a telepathic network linking the living to the dead.

Its evident SaintPaul didn't believe Saint Onesiphorus could hear him discuss his family with Saint Timothy, during their "communion of the saints":

16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:16-18 NKJ)

We have modern day proof "communion of the saints" is not a telepathic network, those who claim to belong to this "communion of the saints" all have telephones to call each other.
Revelation of St. John the Divine: 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


St. Matthew 22: 24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?
St. Luke 20:But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

Make me a believer...send me a telepathic message right now!

or

There is an Orthodox neighbor nearby, as he one of the saints in your communion, have him come over and tell me you sent him....as there is communion of the saints, and you can speak to all in the communion, it should be no problem for you...

Do it now. I give you 30 minutes.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #438 on: September 14, 2010, 12:24:49 AM »

A fundamental feature of the "departed" is they are departed, not present and so cannot hear you.

Scripture is clear the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, he cannot hear you.


So... those who have died in Christ do not have eternal life? You deny the communion of the saints? Wow, even Martin Luther didn't do that. You act like your Bible does not contain a Book of Revelation, in which the saints continue to worship God.

Wow, that's a lot to ask. And you wonder why we think you're an apostate.

You say your faith depends on Scripture. You are ignoring this:

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -Rev. 5:8

And this:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.  (Heb. 12:1)


Have a look-see over here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_of_Saints

(And here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasius_of_Alexandria)


Alfred's words are what happens when you sever yourself from the Body of Christ, and you don't read or hear about the real Church Fathers. You don't have that informative background. It's as if a history student didn't know about key battles or presidents-- as if they presented you with a paper on the American Revolution that said there never was a Battle of Bunker Hill. You'd scratch your head.

He makes himself to be such an admirer of St. Paul. Well, who was it who said "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you'"? (1 Cor. 12:21)

I don't deny the church is a communion of saints, I do deny the absurd idea it is a telepathic network linking the living to the dead.

Its evident SaintPaul didn't believe Saint Onesiphorus could hear him discuss his family with Saint Timothy, during their "communion of the saints":

16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:16-18 NKJ)

We have modern day proof "communion of the saints" is not a telepathic network, those who claim to belong to this "communion of the saints" all have telephones to call each other.
Revelation of St. John the Divine: 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


St. Matthew 22: 24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?
St. Luke 20:But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

Make me a believer...send me a telepathic message right now!

Sorry. Not at your beck and call.

Quote
There is an Orthodox neighbor nearby, as he one of the saints in your communion, have him come over and tell me you sent him....as there is communion of the saints, and you can speak to all in the communion, it should be no problem for you...
Why should I disturb him to waste his time on you? In particular as we have a feast day to prepare for.

Quote
Do it now. I give you 30 minutes.
Do hold your breath. 

And why should we?  You claimed that "the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, [they] cannot hear you." At the linked post, I quoted the scripture showing it teaches otherwise.  You brag about the sufficiently of scripture. Well, the quoted verses should suffice for you.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #439 on: September 14, 2010, 12:43:40 AM »

A fundamental feature of the "departed" is they are departed, not present and so cannot hear you.

Scripture is clear the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, he cannot hear you.


So... those who have died in Christ do not have eternal life? You deny the communion of the saints? Wow, even Martin Luther didn't do that. You act like your Bible does not contain a Book of Revelation, in which the saints continue to worship God.

Wow, that's a lot to ask. And you wonder why we think you're an apostate.

You say your faith depends on Scripture. You are ignoring this:

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. -Rev. 5:8

And this:

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.  (Heb. 12:1)


Have a look-see over here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communion_of_Saints

(And here: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Athanasius_of_Alexandria)


Alfred's words are what happens when you sever yourself from the Body of Christ, and you don't read or hear about the real Church Fathers. You don't have that informative background. It's as if a history student didn't know about key battles or presidents-- as if they presented you with a paper on the American Revolution that said there never was a Battle of Bunker Hill. You'd scratch your head.

He makes himself to be such an admirer of St. Paul. Well, who was it who said "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you'"? (1 Cor. 12:21)

I don't deny the church is a communion of saints, I do deny the absurd idea it is a telepathic network linking the living to the dead.

Its evident SaintPaul didn't believe Saint Onesiphorus could hear him discuss his family with Saint Timothy, during their "communion of the saints":

16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain;
 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me.
 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day-- and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.
 (2Ti 1:16-18 NKJ)

We have modern day proof "communion of the saints" is not a telepathic network, those who claim to belong to this "communion of the saints" all have telephones to call each other.
Revelation of St. John the Divine: 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


St. Matthew 22: 24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?
St. Luke 20:But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

Make me a believer...send me a telepathic message right now!

Sorry. Not at your beck and call.

Quote
There is an Orthodox neighbor nearby, as he one of the saints in your communion, have him come over and tell me you sent him....as there is communion of the saints, and you can speak to all in the communion, it should be no problem for you...
Why should I disturb him to waste his time on you? In particular as we have a feast day to prepare for.

Quote
Do it now. I give you 30 minutes.
Do hold your breath.  

And why should we?  You claimed that "the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, [they] cannot hear you." At the linked post, I quoted the scripture showing it teaches otherwise.  You brag about the sufficiently of scripture. Well, the quoted verses should suffice for you.

You cited irrelevant verses.

I knew you couldn't do it...the entire concept is absurd...you cannot commune with the departed, they are not present with you, just as you cannot commune with living saints who aren't present with you.

If "communion of the saints" meant there was a telepathic connection from saint to saint, then the Orthodox wouldn't have telephones. its that simple.


Scripture confirms this truth, During the communion of Saints Paul and Timothy, departed Saint Onesiphorus is spoken of in the third person:

 16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
 17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
 18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well  (2Ti 1:16-18 KJV)

Saint Onesiphorus didn't hear what was said about him, or his family, because he was "departed," or in modern idiom, "like Elvis, he has left the building."

Talking to dead people is impossible, the dead are either in paradise (third heaven) or in hades, waiting for the resurrection. The living cannot talk to them, they aren't present.

Its that simple.

Spirits do disguise themselves as the departed, to deceive, as the spirit who pretended to be Samuel did to Saul. God wouldn't answer Saul by prophets (28:15) so its inconsistent this spirit was actually Samuel the prophet. Moreover the prophecy was vague (factually wrong)  and promised Saul would be with Samuel, implying Saul's rebellion wouldn't be punished in hell...typical of demonic message.



« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 12:49:22 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #440 on: September 14, 2010, 02:24:12 AM »
Note how I point out that Ss. Paul and Silas lead the Philippian jailer through confession of faith to baptism, thus refuting your claim that confession of faith alone is enough.  Note also how I point out that chrismation (the laying on of hands) was thought necessary by the Apostles Peter and John, thus refuting your claim that this is purely a man-made tradition with no apostolic foundation.

Did it happen without me?
You keep coming back to this thread, yet you cannot read that which clearly refutes your arguments, and using your own tactics? ???

Your method is unscientific. Your conclusions are essentially a "hasty generalization" fallacy. You focus on a few texts which your biased opinion accepts as the "norm", then any text which doesn't conform to that picture is classified "an exception that proves the rule."
As I said, I'm only using your tactics. ;)

A scientific (unbiased) method would inspect all the related texts, and from them all determine if a "rule" can be proposed for the "phenomena."
If I were actually trying to establish a rule, than maybe this scientific method would be the way to go about determining the rule.  However, all I'm trying to do is show you how your thesis regarding the laying on of hands contradicts the biblical record.  To do that, I need only to show one example of how the Apostles practiced the laying on of hands to invoke the descent of the Holy Spirit upon others to show that the laying on of hands for this purpose is not merely the man-made tradition you claim it is.  One example is all I need to show, and I've shown you that.

If you did that, then you would conclude laying on of hands served a different function than "communicating the Holy Spirit."

It was a formality, a way of "setting apart" the one being chosen for a specific duty, from the rest of the community.
And how do you know this? ???

I am aware of how the Apostles used the laying on of hands to ordain men--to set them apart--for special ministry (for example, the ordination of deacons in Acts 6:6, and the ordinations of Ss. Paul and Barnabas for their missionary work in Acts 13:3).  Yet you cannot deny that the Apostles also used the laying on of hands to invoke the descent of the Holy Spirit upon those who had not yet received Him.

As God is infinite, His Holy Spirit omnipresent, He isn't channeled by matter from one place to another, He already is everywhere.


Evidently the Orthodox have compartmentalized the doctrine of God's omnipresence, from affecting their rules about laying on of hands.
You know what's most frustrating about this whole venture, Alfred?  You never listen.  I keep telling you the exact opposite, that we Orthodox recognize God's omnipresence and omnipotence probably better than anyone else, yet you insist on repeating your canard about how the Orthodox "put God in a box" with our "rules" in spite of what I say.

Compartmentalization is characteristic of an irrational conclusion, an unscientific biased conclusion that does not conform to the facts, hence by definition, is untrue.

Nice attempt to weasel out of your obvious contradiction of Scripture, but I'm not buying it.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 02:38:17 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #441 on: September 14, 2010, 02:55:03 AM »
We have modern day proof "communion of the saints" is not a telepathic network, those who claim to belong to this "communion of the saints" all have telephones to call each other.
Revelation of St. John the Divine: 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


St. Matthew 22: 24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?
St. Luke 20:But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”

Make me a believer...send me a telepathic message right now!

Sorry. Not at your beck and call.

Quote
There is an Orthodox neighbor nearby, as he one of the saints in your communion, have him come over and tell me you sent him....as there is communion of the saints, and you can speak to all in the communion, it should be no problem for you...
Why should I disturb him to waste his time on you? In particular as we have a feast day to prepare for.

Quote
Do it now. I give you 30 minutes.
Do hold your breath.  

And why should we?  You claimed that "the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, [they] cannot hear you." At the linked post, I quoted the scripture showing it teaches otherwise.  You brag about the sufficiently of scripture. Well, the quoted verses should suffice for you.

You cited irrelevant verses.
Do you tread those sour grapes into sour whine?
You were refuted. You made a absolute statement, and it was shown to be false.
Anyone who sees your posts can see that for themselves.
It's not the first time that has happened.

I knew you couldn't do it
Sorry. Not at your beck and call.

Why should I disturb him to waste his time on you? In particular as we have a feast day to prepare for.

And why should we?  You claimed that "the living cannot disturb the rest of the departed, like Athanasius, [they] cannot hear you." At the linked post, I quoted the scripture showing it teaches otherwise.  You brag about the sufficiently of scripture. Well, the quoted verses should suffice for you.

You obviously can't read mundane messages anyone can read posted on the internet. And we are supposed to believe you can receive heavenly ones?

...the entire concept is absurd...you cannot commune with the departed, they are not present with you, just as you cannot commune with living saints who aren't present with you.
I can communicate with say, Fr. Ambrose, on the other side of the world.  I get the impression I couldn't communicate if you were in the same room with me.

The verses suffice.

If "communion of the saints" meant there was a telepathic connection from saint to saint, then the Orthodox wouldn't have telephones. its that simple.
That's simplistic. Yes, I am aware that the distinction seems to escape you.

Scripture confirms this truth, During the communion of Saints Paul and Timothy, departed Saint Onesiphorus is spoken of in the third person:

 16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
 17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
 18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well  (2Ti 1:16-18 KJV)

Saint Onesiphorus didn't hear what was said about him, or his family, because he was "departed," or in modern idiom, "like Elvis, he has left the building."
Yes, you keep on repeating that. Several people have asked how you know that St. Onesiphorus was departed. I haven't seen you answer. Like I said, I doubt you could communicate if we were in the same room.

Talking to dead people is impossible, the dead are either in paradise (third heaven) or in hades, waiting for the resurrection. The living cannot talk to them, they aren't present.

Its that simple.

You're simply wrong.  The verses suffice to prove that.

Spirits do disguise themselves as the departed, to deceive, as the spirit who pretended to be Samuel did to Saul. God wouldn't answer Saul by prophets (28:15) so its inconsistent this spirit was actually Samuel the prophet. Moreover the prophecy was vague (factually wrong)  and promised Saul would be with Samuel, implying Saul's rebellion wouldn't be punished in hell...typical of demonic message.
Samuel was in hell. You don't know your Bible.

The Bible says "the woman saw Samuel," "Then Saul knew it was Samuel," "Samuel said." That you do not believe the Bible is a problem you will have to deal with.

Contrast:
Genesis 27:6 So Rebekah spoke to Jacob her son, saying, “Indeed I heard your father speak to Esau your brother, saying, 7 ‘Bring me game and make savory food for me, that I may eat it and bless you in the presence of the LORD before my death.’ 8 Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to what I command you. 9 Go now to the flock and bring me from there two choice kids of the goats, and I will make savory food from them for your father, such as he loves. 10 Then you shall take it to your father, that he may eat it, and that he may bless you before his death.”
11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, “Look, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth-skinned man. 12 Perhaps my father will feel me, and I shall seem to be a deceiver to him; and I shall bring a curse on myself and not a blessing.”
13 But his mother said to him, “Let your curse be on me, my son; only obey my voice, and go, get them for me.” 14 And he went and got them and brought them to his mother, and his mother made savory food, such as his father loved. 15 Then Rebekah took the choice clothes of her elder son Esau, which were with her in the house, and put them on Jacob her younger son. 16 And she put the skins of the kids of the goats on his hands and on the smooth part of his neck. 17 Then she gave the savory food and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob.
18 So he went to his father and said, “My father.”
And he said, “Here I am. Who are you, my son?”
19 Jacob said to his father, “I am Esau your firstborn; I have done just as you told me; please arise, sit and eat of my game, that your soul may bless me.”
20 But Isaac said to his son, “How is it that you have found it so quickly, my son?”
And he said, “Because the LORD your God brought it to me.”
21 Isaac said to Jacob, “Please come near, that I may feel you, my son, whether you are really my son Esau or not.” 22 So Jacob went near to Isaac his father, and he felt him and said, “The voice is Jacob’s voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau.” 23 And he did not recognize him, because his hands were hairy like his brother Esau’s hands; so he blessed him.
24 Then he said, “Are you really my son Esau?”
He said, “I am.”
25 He said, “Bring it near to me, and I will eat of my son’s game, so that my soul may bless you.” So he brought it near to him, and he ate; and he brought him wine, and he drank. 26 Then his father Isaac said to him, “Come near now and kiss me, my son.” 27 And he came near and kissed him; and he smelled the smell of his clothing, and blessed him and said:

      “ Surely, the smell of my son
      Is like the smell of a field
      Which the LORD has blessed.
 28 Therefore may God give you
      Of the dew of heaven,
      Of the fatness of the earth,
      And plenty of grain and wine.

 29 Let peoples serve you,
      And nations bow down to you.
      Be master over your brethren,
      And let your mother’s sons bow down to you.
      Cursed be everyone who curses you,
      And blessed be those who bless you!”

30 Now it happened, as soon as Isaac had finished blessing Jacob, and Jacob had scarcely gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, that Esau his brother came in from his hunting.

Isaac was fooled, but scripture was not. Or was the author of Kingdoms/Samuel more gullible than that of Genesis?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 02:57:19 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #442 on: September 14, 2010, 09:38:52 AM »
Spirits do disguise themselves as the departed, to deceive, as the spirit who pretended to be Samuel did to Saul. God wouldn't answer Saul by prophets (28:15) so its inconsistent this spirit was actually Samuel the prophet. Moreover the prophecy was vague (factually wrong)  and promised Saul would be with Samuel, implying Saul's rebellion wouldn't be punished in hell...typical of demonic message.
Samuel was in hell. You don't know your Bible.

The Bible says "the woman saw Samuel," "Then Saul knew it was Samuel," "Samuel said." That you do not believe the Bible is a problem you will have to deal with.

If the Orthodox believe the righteous dead are in hell, they are more off than I supposed. Paradise is in  third heaven, above the earth:

And who has seen the spirit of the sons of man, whether it goes upward? and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:21 LXE)

Christ has, that's who:

 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 (Luk 16:22-23 KJV)

 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:43 KJV)

[Christ's descent into hell, His "being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1Pe 3:18-19 ASV) does not rule out a brief appearance in third heaven first, before going to hell to save sinners. ]

 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
 3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 (2Co 12:2-4 NKJ)

 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (1Th 4:14 KJV)

When the dead rise at Christ's coming, are reunited with their glorified resurrected bodies, they meet Him in Third Heaven:

 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17 NKJ)

 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Co 15:52 NKJ)

Jesus brings the righteous dead with Him as He descends, to take over the earth.


Samuel was not in hell, in the lower part of Sheol or Hades, he was in the upper part of Sheol, which is in Third heaven:

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
 (Rev 6:9-11 NKJ)

It is NOT Orthodox (=right-thinking) to believe Satan's children have power over God's children in death.

It is impossible God allowed a witch disturb Samuel's rest, that is why the witch was surprised by the appearance of an entity claiming to be Samuel:


 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!"
 13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit(elohiym) ascending out of the earth."
 (1Sa 28:12-13 NKJ)

She knew it was not Samuel...she calls it a "god" (elohiym) which is NOT a human soul.

And this exegesis is confirmed when the "god" says the LORD will not answer Saul...therefore neither would the real Samuel, he would not prophesy his own thoughts to Saul, a real prophet of God does not do that EVER.


« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 09:54:10 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #443 on: September 14, 2010, 10:03:49 AM »
I wonder how many fallacies he can put into one post?

If by whiskey and cherry picking, two for the price of one!

 :P

I don't think he knows, even by this point, what the Orthodox believe. Nor does he seem to want to find out. He has a preconceived notion of what those Orthodox folks are supposed to be doin', and by durn, he's going to put a stop to it. Or something. From what he's said, he's got to be a Jehovah's Witness. Lots of fire and brimstone, an afterlife but no prayer with the Church Triumphant, etc. Sigh. He even goes to the exact same 'tell' verses. Did he think other people wouldn't figure this out? When this was mentioned before, he began to call it 'smears,' despite the fact that people were just calling groups what they've always been called.

That's really too bad, and he could do a lot better, if he wanted to. It's not hard. It's like watching a capable pitcher mess up a game when you know he could get the strikes.

So I'm still going to offer to him things that would maybe help to fill in a little in his understanding, if he would only go there and see them.

Alfred, do you want to know what Orthodox people believe?

Here is a chance to see some of them acting on what they believe. This is not my parish, but it's a good example.

http://www.acrod.org/organizations/cathedral/live/servicesarchivescathedral

These are video recordings of the services held in Christ the Saviour Orthodox Cathedral, in Pennsylvania. That's what a liturgy (in English and Slavonic) looks like. Other places will use other languages, but this is just to give you an idea.

If you want to know more about Orthodox beliefs, you can do some easy Google searches ("Orthodox Church," for one, or "Orthodox Christianity", etc.), or you can read threads here, etc. Try books at the library. Try an online encyclopedia. Find out for yourself. Research is not that hard to do, and it's fun.

Good luck.  :angel:
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #444 on: September 14, 2010, 12:50:23 PM »
biro, nice try, but I already tried that a few thousand posts ago ... the horses are all out of the barn now, too late to close that door! :D
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #445 on: September 14, 2010, 02:15:55 PM »


There is an Orthodox neighbor nearby, as he one of the saints in your communion, have him come over and tell me you sent him....as there is communion of the saints, and you can speak to all in the communion, it should be no problem for you...

Do it now. I give you 30 minutes.

Give me his phone number? I'll text him. :laugh:


Truthfully though. What do you make of Christs words to the thief on the cross. ;)

Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #446 on: September 14, 2010, 02:49:30 PM »


There is an Orthodox neighbor nearby, as he one of the saints in your communion, have him come over and tell me you sent him....as there is communion of the saints, and you can speak to all in the communion, it should be no problem for you...

Do it now. I give you 30 minutes.

Give me his phone number? I'll text him. :laugh:


Truthfully though. What do you make of Christs words to the thief on the cross. ;)

Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

It means precisely what Jesus said:


If the Orthodox believe the righteous dead of the OT were in hell, they are more off than I supposed. Paradise is in  third heaven, above the earth:

And who has seen the spirit of the sons of man, whether it goes upward? and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:21 LXE)

Christ has, that's who:

 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
 (Luk 16:22-23 KJV)

 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:43 KJV)

[Christ's descent into hell, His "being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1Pe 3:18-19 ASV) does not rule out a brief appearance in third heaven first, before going to hell to save sinners. ]

 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
 3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
 (2Co 12:2-4 NKJ)

 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (1Th 4:14 KJV)

When the dead rise at Christ's coming, are reunited with their glorified resurrected bodies, they meet Him in Third Heaven:

 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17 NKJ)

 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Co 15:52 NKJ)

Jesus brings the righteous dead with Him as He descends, to take over the earth.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #447 on: September 14, 2010, 03:40:19 PM »
First of all we wouldn't call ourselves saints. The judgment is Christs and not ours. In fact you wouldn't be surprised how many saints have called themselves sinners throughout history to ward off the power of Satans demon of pride.  I know this goes against what you were taught as a so called justified saint. :o

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #448 on: September 14, 2010, 03:47:03 PM »
Spirits do disguise themselves as the departed, to deceive, as the spirit who pretended to be Samuel did to Saul. God wouldn't answer Saul by prophets (28:15) so its inconsistent this spirit was actually Samuel the prophet. Moreover the prophecy was vague (factually wrong)  and promised Saul would be with Samuel, implying Saul's rebellion wouldn't be punished in hell...typical of demonic message.
Samuel was in hell. You don't know your Bible.

The Bible says "the woman saw Samuel," "Then Saul knew it was Samuel," "Samuel said." That you do not believe the Bible is a problem you will have to deal with.

If the Orthodox believe the righteous dead are in hell, they are more off than I supposed. Paradise is in  third heaven, above the earth:

You are sidestepping the issue: you made a statement, and plain scripture proved you wrong.

You also don't know your scripture.  Before the descent into Hell, no one was in heaven. Ephesians 4:8 Therefore He says:

      “ When He ascended on high,
      He led captivity captive,
      And gave gifts to men.”

 9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)


[Christ's descent into hell, His "being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1Pe 3:18-19 ASV) does not rule out a brief appearance in third heaven first, before going to hell to save sinners. ]
Why should we add the tradition of the man Alfred Persson to the plain text of scripture?

 
Samuel was not in hell, in the lower part of Sheol or Hades, he was in the upper part of Sheol, which is in Third heaven:
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
 (Rev 6:9-11 NKJ)

When St. John saw heaven, Holy Samuel was there. But that is not where he was when Saul called on him. I Kingdoms/Samuel 28:And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel;

It is NOT Orthodox (=right-thinking) to believe Satan's children have power over God's children in death.
Heb. 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.
Rom. 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

If you do not believe scripture, that's your problem.
It is impossible God allowed a witch disturb Samuel's rest, that is why the witch was surprised by the appearance of an entity claiming to be Samuel:

The entity claims no such thing. The Bible claims it was Samuel.  If you don't believe scripture, that's your problem.


 
12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, "Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!"
 13 And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit(elohiym) ascending out of the earth."
 (1Sa 28:12-13 NKJ)

She knew it was not Samuel...she calls it a "god" (elohiym) which is NOT a human soul.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods (elohiyim)”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken).
So you don't believe that the word of God came to Samuel, or you believe it can be broken.  If you don't believe Scripture (in particular Our Lord's words of the literal Gospel Truth), that's your problem.

 
And this exegesis is confirmed when the "god" says the LORD will not answer Saul...therefore neither would the real Samuel, he would not prophesy his own thoughts to Saul, a real prophet of God does not do that EVER.
Well the Bible says Samuel did just that. The Bible also says Samuel was a real prophet of God.  But if you don't believe Scripture, that's your problem.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 03:48:22 PM by ialmisry »
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #449 on: September 14, 2010, 03:50:30 PM »
biro, nice try, but I already tried that a few thousand posts ago ... the horses are all out of the barn now, too late to close that door! :D

Thank you.   :)

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