Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 211709 times)

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #360 on: September 11, 2010, 02:41:03 PM »
Religionists have boxes they put God in, but He is infinite, much greater than your box. Your ideas about laying on of hands, baptisms ect are contradicted here:
If the Holy Spirit wants to descend upon those who have not (yet) been baptized and give them the same gifts He gives to the baptized, that's certainly His Divine prerogative to do so.  We, however, are bound to obey Jesus Christ, who commanded His disciples to baptize, and we are bound to obey the Holy Spirit who spoke through St. Peter the commandment that we repent and be baptized for the remission of our sins.


This  proves your rules are incorrect, God cannot be bound by your tiny ideas and limiting dogma.

You're right.  God cannot be bound by our tiny ideas and limiting dogma, but we are.  We are bound to what God has revealed of Himself and to obey what He commands us to do.

Now answer this question:  How are you not placing God in a tiny little box by limiting his revelation to the Scriptures alone?


When God the Holy Spirit fell upon me, upon my head like warm oil, my inner man was born by His Spirit, my soul became a "new creature", I was translated into His Kingdom and now sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
How sure are you that it wasn't just this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16fG1sDagU ?


You contradict yourself, you see the text that disproves your rules, and refuse to let it correct your error, yet claim to obey Christ thereby.

That doesn't compute.

How do I know its the Holy Spirit in me,  and not a false or demonic spirit? There is an objective test, obedience to scripture:

Observe carefully what Jesus Christ says:

 21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
 23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
 (Mat 7:21-23 NKJ)


These folks did "christian miracles," they cast out demons in Christ's name, they did signs and wonders...but not by Christ's power, He never knew them.

How could they be distinguished from real Christians...only those who do "the will of my Father in heaven" are real Christians, in other words:

 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Mat 7:20 NKJ)

This principle is applied in various ways in Scripture:

 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jo 4:6 NKJ)

So when you don't hear Peter's words, how those upon whom the Spirit of God fell, before hands were laid upon them, or before they were water baptized, and you make the word of God of no effect through your tradition they must be baptized and have hands laid upon them, THEN you are not following the manifest will of Jesus' Father in heaven...you are not hearing the apostles.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 02:53:49 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #361 on: September 11, 2010, 03:01:48 PM »
Alfred, I know you think you're telling us the "clear" and obvious meaning of Scripture, but you refuse to even consider or address the fact that what you are espousing is an *interpretation* of the Scriptures.  There may be others that agree with you (or that you agree with), but that does NOT make this interpretation the right one.  

Orthodox = the interpretation of the apostles, their direct disciples, and the early church fathers (i.e., people who were there, or not very far removed)
Alfred =  the interpretation of himself and others ~2000 years removed from the new testament.  

Since God said Christ would be with us always, through the Holy Spirit in the Church, you have to understand why we'd choose the Orthodox interpretation over yours, right?  Its interpretation came directly from the NT and has a direct, unchanging line back.  Your interpretation comes out of, well, you.  I wouldn't expect anyone to buy MY interpretation of Scripture apart from the ones who wrote them -- why should we buy yours?  

Alfred, I was "born again" as you describe in 1986. I prayed a prayer, felt lovely feelings, was assured of God's personal love for me, and started getting in line with my understanding of the Christian faith.  I was water baptised in 1989.  I called myself born again and was a very evangelistic person -- my husband and I were in ministry to international students for many years, trying to lead them to a "saving" faith in Christ (by getting them, too, to pray a prayer of salvation).  

But then God started opening my eyes to the ancient church, and what He actually DID do through the Holy Spirit, not what I had always believed He did (based on the Protestant/Evangelical interpretation of the Scriptures).  He started showing me that I had him in a box, a small one, and that He was bigger than text on a page. Text on a page was one way He revealed himself, but not the only way.  The Church is His ark -- and it's always been there in the same shape and form.  The church that existed then still exists today, and after a looong journey Godward, I was received by a true baptism into this Church earlier this year. In other words, I was truly born again, literally with water according to the Scripture and the practice of the church from the earliest times.

We pray for you, too, Alfred -- that you will truly come to know the God of all the way HE wants to be known.  

You are inconsistent, which proves your position is  unsound.

You read and write posts, fully expecting to understand, and be understood, yet you suppose God couldn't write the scripture as proficiently. Yet you claim God is a superior Being?

You are inconsistent.


Is God an idiot? Did He write the Bible to not be understood?

With your lips you laud God as Omniscient, all knowing....but evidently He couldn't foresee how confusing His writing would be without Church councils and fathers explaining what He meant...

Or if God is Omniscient, and all the confusion is because His Word confuses, then He must be evil, purposely fooling us all, inspiring sects and heresies by the words He carefully placed in scripture.

Before we move on to your born again experience,  we need to settle what it is you really believe about God.

1)He's an idiot who can't write intelligibly as you and I do on this board.
2)He's evil purposely wording His Bible so it confuses everyone without the  churches' guidance, which took centuries to appear...leaving all in darkness till then.



« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 03:05:12 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #362 on: September 11, 2010, 03:09:09 PM »
Alfred Persson,


Why is your rule of faith different from that of the Church Fathers? And why don't you call the book of Wisdom Scripture? Many of them did?

Why did they believe in Baptismal Regeneration while you don't? God is not a God of confusion and so why are you scared to check your interpretation of Scripture with theirs? Didn't they have the Holy Spirit too? Why would God tell them one thing......all agreeing on Baptismal Regeneration........ while you another?

Have you ever thought that maybe your interpretation came by the way of Zwingly and the American Revival movement of decision regeneration with alter calls and the anxious bench of Charles G. Finney?


John 1:10-13
"10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

We are Born again through the Water and the Spirit. Not through human decision of alter calls and anxious benches.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 03:26:57 PM by jnorm888 »
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #363 on: September 11, 2010, 03:18:50 PM »

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/polycarp.html (Saint Irenaeus mentions Saint Polycarp...at the bottom of the page)
Qoute:
"But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time, a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles, that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me? "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles."
Saint Irenaeus 180 A.D. Adv. Haer., III.3.4.




As seen from above, Saint Irenaeus used not only Scripture, but also the life of Saint Polycarp. Also, as seen from the quote above, Saint Polycarp used what he knew personally to get many heretics to come back to the Church. He didn't have to use Scripture!


Tertullian
http://www.forerunner.com/churchfathers/X0067__4._Tertullian_-_De_.html (TERTULLIAN - IV. THE CHAPLET, OR DE CORONA)
Quote:
"If, for these and other such rules, you insist
upon having positive Scripture injunction, you will find none. Tradition will be
held forth to you as the originator of them, custom as their strengthener, and
faith as their observer.
That reason will support tradition, and custom, and
faith, you will either yourself perceive, or learn from some one who has.
Meanwhile you will believe that there is some reason to which submission is
due."





We can go on to talk about the rule of faith. Tertullian, Saint Irenaeus, Saint Athanasius, and Saint Vincent of Lerins all talk about it.

Bump!


Alfred Persson,


Why didn't you answer this?
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #364 on: September 11, 2010, 03:22:21 PM »
Alfred Persson,


Why is your rule of faith different from that of the Church Fathers? And why don't you call the book of Wisdom Scripture? Many of them did?

Why did they believe in Baptismal Regeneration while you don't? God is not a God of confusion and so why are you scared to check your interpretation if Scripture with theirs? Didn't they have the Holy Spirit too? Why would God tell them one thing......all agreeing on Baptismal Regeneration........ while you another?

Have you ever thought that maybe your interpretation came by the way of Zwingly and the American Revival movement of decision regeneration with alter calls and the anxious bench of Charles G. Finney?

I believe scripture, you believe traditions that make the word of God of none effect, that is why we differ.

My rule of faith, as you call it, is explicitly stated in scripture.

Yours must be uncovered in the often contradictory sayings of the fathers over hundreds of years.

Baptismal regeneration is a excellent illustration:

45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:45-48 NKJ)

You refuse this elegant proof neither water or hands laying are necessary for regeneration.

You ask why you and the church fathers don't believe this,  and I do...its elementary.

You make the word of God of none effect by your tradition, and I do not, I believe the Word of God.

The correct interpretation is self evident, explicit in the text, it doesn't come via any church tradition...

it comes from reading the text, the words God wrote, and believing them.




« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 03:29:44 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #365 on: September 11, 2010, 03:42:57 PM »
If a person were raised in church, and were given the opportunity to attend and learn, as does everyone else; then if this person, upon reaching adulthood, or the age of reason, however you wish to define that, continued to attend church, continued to believe what they had been taught, and continued to accept the teachings of the church (i.e. that Christ is savior), to worship and believe in this way, would this not constitute 'letting Christ in'?

They had been given an opportunity to accept or reject the faith, they had chosen to keep practicing it. Let's assume they are sincere in what they say and what they do, and that when they say they believe Christ is Lord and savior, they mean it. Why would this not count? Why would this not be good enough? They continue to say, and do, and believe. They believe in and worship Christ. Is this not what it means to accept Christ as savior? Does my Christian experience not count because when I was baptized, just before it happened, the voice of Christ did not burst forth from somewhere in the room and tell me, "Why persecuteth thou me?"

I wonder if Alfred has ever read anything on the mystery of Chrismation or Confirmation. The Orthodox impart this sacrament right after baptism; some other churches do so at a later age. I think some of the neo-Protestant fixation on the 'need for a personal experience' is due to a lack of the sacraments in most Protestant churches. For what are the sacraments, except personal encounters with God's grace? What is the Eucharist, except Christ sustaining us physically and spiritually? What is Repentance, if not us praying with the priest in the 'prayer of agreement' (if you will) that the Lord in his mercy accept his children and heal them after their missteps in life? And so on.

I'm of sufficient age that I'm able to make my own decisions, and to be found responsible for them. I continue to worship the Lord and to believe that Jesus is the Savior. Why has Alfred Persson appointed himself as Jesus' security guard, the one who checks IDs at the door, and the one who posits himself as the 'verifier' of Scripture? Why gild the lily? What more do you need?   :-\


Alfred: Believe in Jesus.

Me: Okay!

Alfred: But you do not believe.

Me: Huh? I just said...

Alfred: Not good enough. Believe in Jesus.

Me: Okay, I really believe. I really do.

Alfred: You do not accept Jesus. Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord.

Me: Uh, I do... I did... I still-- what?...   ???

Alfred: Believe in Jesus. You do not believe in Jesus.

Me: Er, what did I just-- I believe. I do. I'll say it. Jesus is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father. Amen.

Alfred: Open the door. He is knocking on the door of your heart.

Me: I did. I have. See?

Alfred: You do not accept.

Me: But-- but-- it doesn't say 'heart' in the passage. Anyway, did you get that from a Billy Graham speech? What about baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? What about 'suffer the little children to come unto me, for such is the kingdom of Heaven"? I was baptized--

Alfred: You do not...

(...many posts later...)

Me:  :-[   


It looks like Alfred has decided to shut the door of his heart, and that 'we' must be 'rejecting Christ' because we don't see certain Biblical passages the same way as he does. He has posited himself as the arbiter of Scripture and who does or does not 'pass the test.' So, Alfred, do you think *you are* the Holy Spirit? It's one thing to have encountered it, if one is to give you the benefit of the doubt. It's another to be sure that you, yourself, are the Holy Spirit's 'good cop' and have the ability to 'scan' the hearts of others. Er, doesn't that take away from the 'personal' quality of their worship?

You are not the Holy Spirit and you are not the Scriptures. Neither am I. I just pray that God will have mercy on me. Thank you.  :-X
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Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #366 on: September 11, 2010, 04:05:46 PM »

You are inconsistent, which proves your position is  unsound.

You read and write posts, fully expecting to understand, and be understood ...


You just basically proved my point.  I wrote words that to an Orthodox person are quite clear and consistent -- but interpreted by you (YOUR way) seem "inconsistent". God's Scripture is the same way -- that's why limiting God to a text is the inconsistent thing, the fruit of which is a myriad of Protestant denominations, some believing diametrically opposed things. People interpret what God "clearly" wrote different ways. 

Quote
The Bible says once someone accepts Christ, he can never lose his salvation. All true Christians have eternal security.

The Bible says it is possible to fall away from grace. Even believers can turn away from God and be forever lost in their sins.

The Bible says says homosexuality is a perversion of God's moral law and a deviation from natural human behavior.

The Bible says homosexuality is morally ac­ceptable; it is a lifestyle as viable as any "traditional" concept of marriage or family.

The Bible says long ago God predestined some men and women to everlasting life, and some to ever­lasting judgment. We are not free to accept or reject His salvation.

The Bible says God Himself does not know who will choose Him. Salvation is a matter of free will. The decision is entirely up to us.

The Bible says Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God the Father, sharing fully in His divinity, and indivisibly united with the Holy Trinity.

The Bible says Jesus Christ is a created being. He is superior to the angels, but not eternal and not of the same nature as the Father.

The Bible says we should no longer use the terms "Father" and "Son" in relation to God. They are merely symbolic and were meant to be replaced with less sexist terminology.

The Bible says ...

Wait a minute!

How can so many contradictory statements be based on the teachings of one book? How can intelli­gent and sensible people read basically the same Old and New Testament text, yet arrive at such opposite conclusions? Is there any other book, ancient or mod­ern, which has prompted such a vast and often incom­patible array of interpretations and dogmas? Why can't anyone agree on what the Bible really teaches?

I believe the time has come for those who love the Holy Scriptures, no matter what their backgrounds may be, to address such questions earnestly and sin­cerely in the name of Christ ......


The rest of the article here.  There has to be an interpreter.  The Holy Orthodox Church -- the Church that was there -- is the interpreter. 

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #367 on: September 11, 2010, 04:24:06 PM »
Religionists have boxes they put God in, but He is infinite, much greater than your box. Your ideas about laying on of hands, baptisms ect are contradicted here:
If the Holy Spirit wants to descend upon those who have not (yet) been baptized and give them the same gifts He gives to the baptized, that's certainly His Divine prerogative to do so.  We, however, are bound to obey Jesus Christ, who commanded His disciples to baptize, and we are bound to obey the Holy Spirit who spoke through St. Peter the commandment that we repent and be baptized for the remission of our sins.


This  proves your rules are incorrect, God cannot be bound by your tiny ideas and limiting dogma.

You're right.  God cannot be bound by our tiny ideas and limiting dogma, but we are.  We are bound to what God has revealed of Himself and to obey what He commands us to do.

Now answer this question:  How are you not placing God in a tiny little box by limiting his revelation to the Scriptures alone?


When God the Holy Spirit fell upon me, upon my head like warm oil, my inner man was born by His Spirit, my soul became a "new creature", I was translated into His Kingdom and now sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
How sure are you that it wasn't just this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16fG1sDagU ?


You contradict yourself, you see the text that disproves your rules, and refuse to let it correct your error, yet claim to obey Christ thereby.

That doesn't compute.

How do I know its the Holy Spirit in me,  and not a false or demonic spirit? There is an objective test, obedience to scripture:

Observe carefully what Jesus Christ says:

 21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
 23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
 (Mat 7:21-23 NKJ)


These folks did "christian miracles," they cast out demons in Christ's name, they did signs and wonders...but not by Christ's power, He never knew them.

How could they be distinguished from real Christians...only those who do "the will of my Father in heaven" are real Christians, in other words:

 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Mat 7:20 NKJ)

This principle is applied in various ways in Scripture:

 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jo 4:6 NKJ)

So when you don't hear Peter's words, how those upon whom the Spirit of God fell, before hands were laid upon them, or before they were water baptized, and you make the word of God of no effect through your tradition they must be baptized and have hands laid upon them, THEN you are not following the manifest will of Jesus' Father in heaven...you are not hearing the apostles.
I think you're fighting a straw man here, for I specifically acknowledged God's prerogative to act as He pleases for the salvation of all persons.  What you're doing is taking God's exceptional actions as the example for a norm that contradicts His clear commandment to us that we be baptized.

And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.  - Matthew 28:18-20

Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and He upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw Him after he had risen. And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.  - Mark 16:14-16

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.  - Acts 2:37-42

Can the Holy Spirit descend upon the unbaptized and give them His divine gifts, as you so state?  Indeed He can, and the Acts of the Apostles from which I just quoted show that He in fact did at times.  However, this does not nullify Christ's commandment, reiterated as it is by the very St. Peter whom you portray as somehow teaching otherwise, that we be baptized.  In this light can we understand why, even after St. Peter had witnessed the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:44, he still commanded that they be baptized in the name of the Lord.  He evidently thought in his Apostolic wisdom that the descent of the Holy Spirit alone was not enough and that the people must still obey the commandment of Christ that they be baptized.

Seeing this, how can you possibly counsel others to disobey the Lord's will by your insistence that baptism is not necessary for salvation?  The commandment that we be baptized is not the mere tradition of men, as you so preach.  The commandment that we be baptized is seen very clearly in the Gospel and in the teaching of the Apostles.  Insomuch as you preach that baptism is a man-made rule not necessary for our salvation, it is you who are not hearing the Apostles, and it is you who show not the fruit of repentance by not following the will of our Father in heaven.

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 04:38:21 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #368 on: September 11, 2010, 04:29:05 PM »
Not to be crude, but a copy of the Bible didn't die on the Cross. Jesus is the 'fulfillment of the Scriptures,' as we say in the Creed. John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:14: "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us." The Holy Trinity is not "Father, Son and a copy of the Bible." Alfred, do you want to see us increase our faith in God, or have you formed in your mind some preconceived notion that we 'can't be doing it right' and must be corrected by you? Are you just trying to 'count coup' in a spiritual way? I have to be wary of those who would stitch together Bible passages like an ill-fitting glove. You gave yourself the term 'Primitive Orthodox' in some of your posts, but this seems to be disingenuous, as you've then come up with your own meanings for the concepts of Orthodoxy, church fathers, and so forth. It all seems to point to a concept that you are real, we are not, your belief is good enough, ours is not... Forgive me but it all begins to sound like a broken record after a while.

Again, there are many websites which allow you to see video recordings of Orthodox services, so you can tell what's going on there. There are Orthodox churches around the world, and they don't mind it when people stop by. You don't have to join if you're not ready to do so. Just talk to people a little. I think you'll find them pretty surprising.
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Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #369 on: September 11, 2010, 04:31:18 PM »
Nevahmind.

Our bishop is coming for his annual visit to our parish this weekend, and through our patronal feast day on Tuesday, and I want to get my heart and mind and physical being in a state of preparation.  
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 04:36:17 PM by Thankful »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #370 on: September 11, 2010, 04:34:11 PM »
...

Why didn't you answer this?

Yes, Alfred, and why haven't you answered this:

2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:    

 Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:    


16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,    

17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 RSV)    


That's a non sequitur argument, since your conclusion that all necessary oral tradition now exists in the Bible does not follow at all from your premise that God wrote the Bible that we may be fully equipped.  The fact that God inspired the writing of the Scriptures that we may be fully equipped does not preclude other forms of divine revelation that God made to us for the same purpose.

No, it follows, Paul says the Bible completely equips, therefore it does.

BUT this is the second time (or more) you inferred I say this excludes other forms of divine revelation.
No.  I responded only to your explicit assertion that all necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible.  This DOES NOT follow from your statement of the Bible's purpose.

I don't say that at all.

Its always possible God grant a vision, dream, or send an angel.

What I say is I test anything outside of scripture, by scripture. So even if I had a vision, and discovered it contradicted the Bible, I would reject the vision.
That we do also, for we too believe that Tradition cannot contradict the Scriptures.  Open contradiction of the Scriptures, however, is not the same as absence from the Scriptures.

That's what "sola scriptura" means, not that we deny tradition or any teaching outside of the Bible as being true or potentially helpful.

Sola scriptura means scripture alone is the undisputed infallible word of God, everything else has less authority, so when these conflict, scripture is accepted and the other rejected.
But that's not what you're arguing here.  You argue as if absence from the Scriptures and contradiction of the Scriptures are one and the same thing.  As I stated above, they are not.  Something isn't to be rejected merely because it's not found in the Scriptures, yet that's what you do and what you counsel us to do.

I do argue, as God makes me complete for every good work, via scripture, I do not need church traditions to be complete. Perhaps that is what you meant
What we are saying is that Scripture is sufficient to make us complete for every good work, but that the Scriptures need to be interpreted properly to be effective.  It seems that you actually agree with this, since you've been working so hard to present to us what you believe to be the correct interpretation of Scripture.  If Scripture alone was sufficient, why would you deem it so important to interpret the Scriptures for us?  You see, even you believe that the Scriptures need proper interpretation to be effective in equipping us for good works.  You just don't believe that the Church is qualified to give us this proper interpretation, so you substitute your own in its place.

Regarding that, I make the following argument against both Catholic and Orthodox tradition:

As both God and Paul say scripture is able to make wise EIS "into" salvation and that scripture completely equips for every good work, which necessarily includes the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others...


To have tradition equal to Scripure in authority is either superfluous or pernicious.
I've got news for you, Alfred.  The Orthodox don't elevate Tradition to the level of authority only Scripture has for us.  I can't speak for Catholics, since I never was one, but I can safely say that for the Orthodox, Scripture is part of Tradition, yet Scripture is supremely authoritative within Tradition.  Tradition flows forth from Scripture, returns to Scripture, and cannot be separated from Scripture.  Even so, Tradition is necessary for guiding us into a proper interpretation of the Scriptures.  Without the guidance of Tradition, one cannot be sure that his interpretation of Scripture is correct.

IF Tradition agrees with Scripture, its superfluous.
Again, Tradition is not something separate from Scripture that we oppose to Scripture.  Rather, as our own theologian Vladimir Lossky once said, Tradition is the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church.  Of this life of the Holy Spirit in the Church, the Scriptures are the supremely authoritative product and guide.  Nothing can contradict the Scriptures without it also contradicting Tradition, since contradiction of Scripture IS a contradiction of Tradition.

If Tradition disagrees with Scripture, its pernicious.

As Tradition must either agree or disagree with scripture, Tradition is either superfluous or pernicious.

Therefore Tradition is either unnecessary, or poisonous, we are best off without it.

You know what, Alfred?  You make the fundamental Protestant (and Roman Catholic, in the sense that this relation of Scripture to Tradition is also a bone of contention between Orthodox and Catholics) mistake of seeing Scripture and Tradition as two different bodies of knowledge, one of which is necessary and the other of which is totally unnecessary and/or even opposed to the one.  As I've said before, this is simply not the case for the Orthodox, which makes your arguments into a bit of a straw man.  To us, Scripture and Tradition are merely different ways of speaking about the same thing:  God's revelation of Himself to man.  Scripture is Tradition and the chief authority therein, and Tradition is Scripture properly interpreted.  Attack Tradition, and you attack the very foundation of your Scriptures, thus rendering Scripture meaningless.

And this:
Alfred, I say this in love, but you have once again demonstrated that you don't understand how we view the relationship between Scripture and Tradition. (You also don't seem to quite understand what Tradition even is.)

They are not two separate entities that we judge against each other. Rather, the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other. But Tradition cannot be superfluous beside Scripture, because Scripture is a part of Tradition. If Tradition is superfluous, then Scripture, which is under the umbrella of Tradition, is too. In other words, Scripture does not sit beside Tradition. Scripture is a type of Tradition (the most important type, in fact), besides Iconography, Liturgy, the Fathers, etc.

What does that mean? It means that if some practice or teaching of the Church contradicts any part of Tradition, including Scripture, that practice or teaching cannot itself become part of Tradition. Tradition is self-regulating. If something doesn't belong, it quite naturally falls away.

Tradition is the entire life of the Church in all places and times. Therefore everything, including scripture, falls under the auspices of Tradition. You can't call Tradition superfluous if Tradition is everything.

I suppose if you wanted to draw an analogy, you could say Tradition is to Essence as Scripture, Icons, the Fathers, etc are to Energies.

And you present a false dilemma. On those same grounds, having four Gospels is superfluous because most of the stories are exactly the same. (And they disagree on some details, so clearly some of the gospels are false.) However, we say the four Gospels are necessary because their similarity proves they are all true. If there was only one Gospel, we wouldn't know if it was true or not. Anyone can write a book that says anything, but when you have four independent books that agree, you establish validity.

That is what I have been trying to say about interpretation. Anyone can say the Bible says anything. What proves its validity is when the entire Church comes to the same conclusion. When it's just Alfred Persson, that's meaningless. When it's the whole Church, and all of Tradition (ie, the Scriptures, the Fathers, the Hymns, the Icons, everything), that indicates something is true.

All these facets of Tradition, among other things, create a giant circuit of checks and balances that protects the ancient truth from being corrupted by every John Q who has a new take on what the Bible means. That is impossible in the world of Sola Scriptura, because every man, woman, and child thinks it says something different—and has the exegesis to prove it.

???

One would think you're afraid to address what we really believe and are content to merely attack your straw man caricatures of what you want to think we believe.  It's easy to knock down straw men, Alfred.  It's so easy.  But you're not going to convince us of anything as long as you continue to show no desire to understand and address us as we really are.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #371 on: September 11, 2010, 04:49:21 PM »

One would think you're afraid to address what we really believe and are content to merely attack your straw man caricatures of what you want to think we believe.  It's easy to knock down straw men, Alfred.  It's so easy.  But you're not going to convince us of anything as long as you continue to show no desire to understand and address us as we really are.

Unfortunately I don't know what you are talking about. With all the different subjects being discussed, I forget which you refer to.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #372 on: September 11, 2010, 04:59:20 PM »

One would think you're afraid to address what we really believe and are content to merely attack your straw man caricatures of what you want to think we believe.  It's easy to knock down straw men, Alfred.  It's so easy.  But you're not going to convince us of anything as long as you continue to show no desire to understand and address us as we really are.

Unfortunately I don't know what you are talking about. With all the different subjects being discussed, I forget which you refer to.
Read the posts I just quoted in the very post you just quoted, and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #373 on: September 11, 2010, 05:03:27 PM »
Religionists have boxes they put God in, but He is infinite, much greater than your box. Your ideas about laying on of hands, baptisms ect are contradicted here:
If the Holy Spirit wants to descend upon those who have not (yet) been baptized and give them the same gifts He gives to the baptized, that's certainly His Divine prerogative to do so.  We, however, are bound to obey Jesus Christ, who commanded His disciples to baptize, and we are bound to obey the Holy Spirit who spoke through St. Peter the commandment that we repent and be baptized for the remission of our sins.


This  proves your rules are incorrect, God cannot be bound by your tiny ideas and limiting dogma.

You're right.  God cannot be bound by our tiny ideas and limiting dogma, but we are.  We are bound to what God has revealed of Himself and to obey what He commands us to do.

Now answer this question:  How are you not placing God in a tiny little box by limiting his revelation to the Scriptures alone?


When God the Holy Spirit fell upon me, upon my head like warm oil, my inner man was born by His Spirit, my soul became a "new creature", I was translated into His Kingdom and now sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
How sure are you that it wasn't just this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16fG1sDagU ?


You contradict yourself, you see the text that disproves your rules, and refuse to let it correct your error, yet claim to obey Christ thereby.

That doesn't compute.

How do I know its the Holy Spirit in me,  and not a false or demonic spirit? There is an objective test, obedience to scripture:

Observe carefully what Jesus Christ says:

 21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
 23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
 (Mat 7:21-23 NKJ)


These folks did "christian miracles," they cast out demons in Christ's name, they did signs and wonders...but not by Christ's power, He never knew them.

How could they be distinguished from real Christians...only those who do "the will of my Father in heaven" are real Christians, in other words:

 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Mat 7:20 NKJ)

This principle is applied in various ways in Scripture:

 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jo 4:6 NKJ)

So when you don't hear Peter's words, how those upon whom the Spirit of God fell, before hands were laid upon them, or before they were water baptized, and you make the word of God of no effect through your tradition they must be baptized and have hands laid upon them, THEN you are not following the manifest will of Jesus' Father in heaven...you are not hearing the apostles.
I think you're fighting a straw man here, for I specifically acknowledged God's prerogative to act as He pleases for the salvation of all persons.  What you're doing is taking God's exceptional actions as the example for a norm that contradicts His clear commandment to us that we be baptized.

And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.  - Matthew 28:18-20

Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and He upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw Him after he had risen. And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.  - Mark 16:14-16

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.  - Acts 2:37-42

Can the Holy Spirit descend upon the unbaptized and give them His divine gifts, as you so state?  Indeed He can, and the Acts of the Apostles from which I just quoted show that He in fact did at times.  However, this does not nullify Christ's commandment, reiterated as it is by the very St. Peter whom you portray as somehow teaching otherwise, that we be baptized.  In this light can we understand why, even after St. Peter had witnessed the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:44, he still commanded that they be baptized in the name of the Lord.  He evidently thought in his Apostolic wisdom that the descent of the Holy Spirit alone was not enough and that the people must still obey the commandment of Christ that they be baptized.

Seeing this, how can you possibly counsel others to disobey the Lord's will by your insistence that baptism is not necessary for salvation?  The commandment that we be baptized is not the mere tradition of men, as you so preach.  The commandment that we be baptized is seen very clearly in the Gospel and in the teaching of the Apostles.  Insomuch as you preach that baptism is a man-made rule not necessary for our salvation, it is you who are not hearing the Apostles, and it is you who show not the fruit of repentance by not following the will of our Father in heaven.

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

1)Not a straw man. The text disproves your rule.
2)Mat 28:18 does not refer to baptismal regeneration.
3)Mark 16:14 uses "baptized" adjectivally,  that is confirmed because ONLY unbelief condemns, not failure to be baptized.

Belief that leads to Baptism = true belief, because then one is put out of the Synagogue and condemned as a follower of Christ.

To paraphrase: "He who really believes will be baptized, those who really believe will be saved...but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Baptism wasn't repeated because its irrelevant to the condemnation.

Unbelief is the only grounds for condemnation: (John 3:18, 36; Mark 16:15,16; Rom 10:9-12; Eph 4:18; 2 Pet 2:3,4; 1 John 4:3),

If baptism were necessary to salvation then Paul would never have said:
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you (1Co 1:14 NKJ)

4)Repent and be baptized = the answer of a good conscience towards God, that is what saves, not the water of baptism

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

This proves your rule is wrong:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. (Act 10:44 NKJ)

This is NOT "the exception that proves the rule," its the fact that proves your rule wrong.



« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 05:06:16 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #374 on: September 11, 2010, 05:16:09 PM »
Religionists have boxes they put God in, but He is infinite, much greater than your box. Your ideas about laying on of hands, baptisms ect are contradicted here:
If the Holy Spirit wants to descend upon those who have not (yet) been baptized and give them the same gifts He gives to the baptized, that's certainly His Divine prerogative to do so.  We, however, are bound to obey Jesus Christ, who commanded His disciples to baptize, and we are bound to obey the Holy Spirit who spoke through St. Peter the commandment that we repent and be baptized for the remission of our sins.


This  proves your rules are incorrect, God cannot be bound by your tiny ideas and limiting dogma.

You're right.  God cannot be bound by our tiny ideas and limiting dogma, but we are.  We are bound to what God has revealed of Himself and to obey what He commands us to do.

Now answer this question:  How are you not placing God in a tiny little box by limiting his revelation to the Scriptures alone?


When God the Holy Spirit fell upon me, upon my head like warm oil, my inner man was born by His Spirit, my soul became a "new creature", I was translated into His Kingdom and now sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
How sure are you that it wasn't just this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16fG1sDagU ?


You contradict yourself, you see the text that disproves your rules, and refuse to let it correct your error, yet claim to obey Christ thereby.

That doesn't compute.

How do I know its the Holy Spirit in me,  and not a false or demonic spirit? There is an objective test, obedience to scripture:

Observe carefully what Jesus Christ says:

 21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
 23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
 (Mat 7:21-23 NKJ)


These folks did "christian miracles," they cast out demons in Christ's name, they did signs and wonders...but not by Christ's power, He never knew them.

How could they be distinguished from real Christians...only those who do "the will of my Father in heaven" are real Christians, in other words:

 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Mat 7:20 NKJ)

This principle is applied in various ways in Scripture:

 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jo 4:6 NKJ)

So when you don't hear Peter's words, how those upon whom the Spirit of God fell, before hands were laid upon them, or before they were water baptized, and you make the word of God of no effect through your tradition they must be baptized and have hands laid upon them, THEN you are not following the manifest will of Jesus' Father in heaven...you are not hearing the apostles.
I think you're fighting a straw man here, for I specifically acknowledged God's prerogative to act as He pleases for the salvation of all persons.  What you're doing is taking God's exceptional actions as the example for a norm that contradicts His clear commandment to us that we be baptized.

And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.  - Matthew 28:18-20

Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and He upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw Him after he had risen. And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.  - Mark 16:14-16

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.  - Acts 2:37-42

Can the Holy Spirit descend upon the unbaptized and give them His divine gifts, as you so state?  Indeed He can, and the Acts of the Apostles from which I just quoted show that He in fact did at times.  However, this does not nullify Christ's commandment, reiterated as it is by the very St. Peter whom you portray as somehow teaching otherwise, that we be baptized.  In this light can we understand why, even after St. Peter had witnessed the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:44, he still commanded that they be baptized in the name of the Lord.  He evidently thought in his Apostolic wisdom that the descent of the Holy Spirit alone was not enough and that the people must still obey the commandment of Christ that they be baptized.

Seeing this, how can you possibly counsel others to disobey the Lord's will by your insistence that baptism is not necessary for salvation?  The commandment that we be baptized is not the mere tradition of men, as you so preach.  The commandment that we be baptized is seen very clearly in the Gospel and in the teaching of the Apostles.  Insomuch as you preach that baptism is a man-made rule not necessary for our salvation, it is you who are not hearing the Apostles, and it is you who show not the fruit of repentance by not following the will of our Father in heaven.

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

1)Not a straw man. The text disproves your rule.
2)Mat 28:18 does not refer to baptismal regeneration.
3)Mark 16:14 uses "baptized" adjectivally,  that is confirmed because ONLY unbelief condemns, not failure to be baptized.

Belief that leads to Baptism = true belief, because then one is put out of the Synagogue and condemned as a follower of Christ.

To paraphrase: "He who really believes will be baptized, those who really believe will be saved...but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Baptism wasn't repeated because its irrelevant to the condemnation.

Unbelief is the only grounds for condemnation: (John 3:18, 36; Mark 16:15,16; Rom 10:9-12; Eph 4:18; 2 Pet 2:3,4; 1 John 4:3),

If baptism were necessary to salvation then Paul would never have said:
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you (1Co 1:14 NKJ)

4)Repent and be baptized = the answer of a good conscience towards God, that is what saves, not the water of baptism

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

This proves your rule is wrong:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. (Act 10:44 NKJ)

This is NOT "the exception that proves the rule," its the fact that proves your rule wrong.
Except for one thing:  I'm not preaching baptismal regeneration.  I'm merely taking issue with your claim that baptism is not necessary for salvation and with the formula you propose for how we are to receive the Holy Spirit.  If one knows that the will of God is that we be baptized, how can you preach otherwise and still call yourself a follower of God?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 05:18:35 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #375 on: September 11, 2010, 05:25:13 PM »

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/polycarp.html (Saint Irenaeus mentions Saint Polycarp...at the bottom of the page)
Qoute:
"But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time, a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles, that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me? "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles."
Saint Irenaeus 180 A.D. Adv. Haer., III.3.4.




As seen from above, Saint Irenaeus used not only Scripture, but also the life of Saint Polycarp. Also, as seen from the quote above, Saint Polycarp used what he knew personally to get many heretics to come back to the Church. He didn't have to use Scripture!


Tertullian
http://www.forerunner.com/churchfathers/X0067__4._Tertullian_-_De_.html (TERTULLIAN - IV. THE CHAPLET, OR DE CORONA)
Quote:
"If, for these and other such rules, you insist
upon having positive Scripture injunction, you will find none. Tradition will be
held forth to you as the originator of them, custom as their strengthener, and
faith as their observer.
That reason will support tradition, and custom, and
faith, you will either yourself perceive, or learn from some one who has.
Meanwhile you will believe that there is some reason to which submission is
due."





We can go on to talk about the rule of faith. Tertullian, Saint Irenaeus, Saint Athanasius, and Saint Vincent of Lerins all talk about it.

Bump!


Alfred Persson,


Why didn't you answer this?

I'm not a Tertullianite, or Irenaeusian, or Polycarpian, I am a Christian and therefore follow the example of God's servants in scripture...they cited scripture, not church tradition, to prove their claims:

Passages where the phrase "it is written" occur:



Jos. 8:31
2 Sam. 1:18
1 Ki. 2:3
2 Ki. 23:21
2 Chr. 23:18
2 Chr. 25:4
2 Chr. 31:3
2 Chr. 35:12
Ezr. 3:2, 4
Ezr. 6:18
Neh. 8:15
Neh. 10:34, 36
Ps. 40:7
Isa. 65:6
Dan. 9:13
Matt. 2:5
Matt. 4:4, 6f, 10
Matt. 11:10
Matt. 21:13
Matt. 26:24, 31
Mk. 1:2
Mk. 7:6
Mk. 9:13
Mk. 14:21, 27
Lk. 2:23
Lk. 3:4
Lk. 4:4, 8, 10
Lk. 7:27
Lk. 19:46
Lk. 24:46
Jn. 6:31, 45
Jn. 12:14
Acts 1:20
Acts 7:42
Acts 15:15
Acts 23:5
Rom. 1:17
Rom. 2:24
Rom. 3:4, 10
Rom. 4:17
Rom. 8:36
Rom. 9:13, 33
Rom. 10:15
Rom. 11:8, 26
Rom. 12:19
Rom. 14:11
Rom. 15:3, 9, 21
1 Co. 1:19, 31
1 Co. 2:9
1 Co. 3:19
1 Co. 9:9
1 Co. 10:7
1 Co. 14:21
1 Co. 15:45
2 Co. 8:15
2 Co. 9:9
Gal. 3:10, 13
Gal. 4:22, 27
Heb. 10:7
1 Pet. 1:16


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #376 on: September 11, 2010, 05:34:42 PM »

You are inconsistent, which proves your position is  unsound.

You read and write posts, fully expecting to understand, and be understood ...


You just basically proved my point.  I wrote words that to an Orthodox person are quite clear and consistent -- but interpreted by you (YOUR way) seem "inconsistent". God's Scripture is the same way -- that's why limiting God to a text is the inconsistent thing, the fruit of which is a myriad of Protestant denominations, some believing diametrically opposed things. People interpret what God "clearly" wrote different ways. 

Quote
The Bible says once someone accepts Christ, he can never lose his salvation. All true Christians have eternal security.

The Bible says it is possible to fall away from grace. Even believers can turn away from God and be forever lost in their sins.

The Bible says says homosexuality is a perversion of God's moral law and a deviation from natural human behavior.

The Bible says homosexuality is morally ac­ceptable; it is a lifestyle as viable as any "traditional" concept of marriage or family.

The Bible says long ago God predestined some men and women to everlasting life, and some to ever­lasting judgment. We are not free to accept or reject His salvation.

The Bible says God Himself does not know who will choose Him. Salvation is a matter of free will. The decision is entirely up to us.

The Bible says Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God the Father, sharing fully in His divinity, and indivisibly united with the Holy Trinity.

The Bible says Jesus Christ is a created being. He is superior to the angels, but not eternal and not of the same nature as the Father.

The Bible says we should no longer use the terms "Father" and "Son" in relation to God. They are merely symbolic and were meant to be replaced with less sexist terminology.

The Bible says ...

Wait a minute!

How can so many contradictory statements be based on the teachings of one book? How can intelli­gent and sensible people read basically the same Old and New Testament text, yet arrive at such opposite conclusions? Is there any other book, ancient or mod­ern, which has prompted such a vast and often incom­patible array of interpretations and dogmas? Why can't anyone agree on what the Bible really teaches?

I believe the time has come for those who love the Holy Scriptures, no matter what their backgrounds may be, to address such questions earnestly and sin­cerely in the name of Christ ......


The rest of the article here.  There has to be an interpreter.  The Holy Orthodox Church -- the Church that was there -- is the interpreter. 

False cause fallacy, even the simple statement "God is" will be result in different interpretations, what isn't true is that all of them will be right. Only one will be parsimonous, conforming, hence true.

AND you loaded the dice, yoking Christian and cult together and then ask, why do they disagree.

Your methods dishonor you, they do not prove scripture is written by a Being who can't do what school children do every day, communicate by writing.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #377 on: September 11, 2010, 05:39:30 PM »
Alfred Persson,


I believe scripture, you believe traditions that make the word of God of none effect, that is why we differ.

Let's keep it real homie! I likes to keep it real!

 You don't believe in Scripture, you believe in your interpretation of Scripture, and probably a freelance interpretation at that. You just wing it! You know.....jammin if you played music or free style if you know anything about rap.

 You don't care about double checking your interpretation with the interpretation of those that came before you and shortly after the Apostles.


Quote
My rule of faith, as you call it, is explicitly stated in scripture.

No it's not! Papist and some others already told you what Saint Paul said:

2 Thess 2:15
"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

This is what Scripture says! And therefore your interpretation of 2Ti 3:16-17 was wrong! Many of us told you that it wasn't Exclusive! It can't be in order for Paul to say what he did in 2nd Thess 2:15!

But what did you say? Oh that's right, you said this:
Quote
Oh that tired argument, I put it to rest years ago...let me dig into my archives...

1)Oral tradition became scripture:    

At about 51-52 AD Paul' commanded obedience to both apostolic word and letter, so both coexisted at that time.

2 Th 2:15  Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.      

BUT a chronological list of NT books has 2 Thessalonians as the 6th NT, a full 21 bible books were written after that.    

Even in 2 Thessalonians we see the process of oral becoming written:    

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? (2Th 2:5 RSV)    

The process continued throughout the writing of the NT (AD. 68-70):      

17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;    
 
18 they said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions."    (Jud 1:17-18 RSV)    


2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:    

 Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:    


16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,    

17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 RSV)    




Your argument gets confused when you link this to the canon. Paul seems to be referring to the OT alone as "all scripture" because he speaks of the time when "Timothy was a child:"

NKJ  2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

2 Tim was written about 67 AD, in Paul's culture one is a child until twelve. So if Timothy is in his late twenties, then this is pushed back at about 15 years leaving only the Old Testament and synoptic gospels and perhaps a couple of letters, James and Galatians.

So Paul's point is even more powerful, as scripture then could make the child Timothy wise INTO (eis) salvation, how much more can it now that we have the completed New Testament.

Paul's statements are made in history, that oral tradition and scripture coexisted for a time does not meant that is the case today, the NT is completed.

What make Catholics and Orthodox inconsistent is the fact the canon is closed. If the Word of God were being channeled through them in any way, their words would be scripture...the canon would still be undefined, open.

So Catholics, East and West contradict themselves, but agree with me, the canon is closed. It is irrelevant to my point we disagree what books are canon, what is material is we all agree its closed.


I could be wrong, but I believe you made a mistake when arguing with someone else in regards to 2Ti 3:16-17 and the 66 books that you hold to.

That is why I said what I said in my response to you. Now you are trying to use that correction on me. Yes I know Saint Paul was talking about the Old Testament......which was the LXX text family. You don't accept that text family. You can't call the book of Wisdom Scripture! You can't call any D.C.'s/Anagignoskomena Scripture. Many church fathers and early christian witnesses did. At least one or more was always seen as Scripture! This is something you can't say, and yet you want to call yourself Primitive Orthodox! You are not primative Orthodox, you are protestant. You want to re-invent the Faith by way of only using the Scriptures that you accept.

Also, when you make a mistake you have a hard time admitting that you did. And then you try to correct yourself as if nothing ever happened. As if we can't notice or something.

Remember what you said when you first came here? About what you said in regards to the creed. Later on you changed your mind about that. Now you are trying to say that you are like those who lived from the first century to about the time of the Nicene creed. Yet, you refuse to even look at their interpretations of Scripture! Why? Because you know that yours is totally against theirs! You can't use the term Primitive Orthodox if you refuse to even look at their interpretations of Scripture! And how can you call yourself that if you reject their rule of faith? How can you call yourself that if you reject Baptismal Regeneration and the LXX text family? Stop calling yourself Primitive Orthodox! Simply call yourself protestant....with a lowercase "p"! For that's what you are!


Quote
1)Oral tradition became scripture:
 

Where does the Bible say this? You said your rule of faith was "explicitly stated in scripture"

Where is it EXPLICITLY Stated that before the death of Saint John Oral tradition became Scripture? Also, if that was the case, then why did Tertullian say this:
Quote:
"If, for these and other such rules, you insist
upon having positive Scripture injunction, you will find none. Tradition will be
held forth to you as the originator of them, custom as their strengthener, and
faith as their observer. That reason will support tradition, and custom, and
faith, you will either yourself perceive, or learn from some one who has.
Meanwhile you will believe that there is some reason to which submission is
due."


This was a hundred and some decades after the death of Saint John the Apostle. Tertullian obviously didn't have your rule of faith.

Quote
At about 51-52 AD Paul' commanded obedience to both apostolic word and letter, so both coexisted at that time.

As seen with the quote by Tertullian, both co-existed after that time as well....around the early third century A.D.

And as seen by the quote from Saint Irenaeus in regards to Saint Polycarp in the other post I bumped up, we can tell that your rule of faith was never the plan. It never was the reality on the ground. We can see that what Saint Paul said in the first century was also seen as being the case in the second and third as well.

Quote
BUT a chronological list of NT books has 2 Thessalonians as the 6th NT, a full 21 bible books were written after that.    

Even in 2 Thessalonians we see the process of oral becoming written:    

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? (2Th 2:5 RSV)    

The process continued throughout the writing of the NT (AD. 68-70):
 


The process of parts of Oral tradition being written in the NT didn't stop at 70A.D., that process continued in the second, and third centuries as well.

Do you accept the last part of John chapter 7 to chapter 8 as Scripture? I do!

Do you accept most of the other interpolations and added verses as Scripture? I do! Do you want to know why? Because we find most...if not all of those added verses in the works of the early Church Fathers. Mainly western, but the east as well. For the west quoted some verses as Scripture that the Greek Christian East didn't, and the Greek Christian East quoted some things as Scripture that the Christian West didn't. The Byzantine Textual tradition includes both, and so if you read from that then you will be reading everything or almost everything that both East and West had in the Scriptures of their Divine Liturgies.  And so it doesn't really matter if the earliest greek manuscripts don't include such verses.....parts of Oral tradition was still be written down and we can find these extra verses quoted as Scripture or at least known in the works of the church fathers....mainly the western ones, but some in the East as well.

Also, how do you know the author of some of the Gospels if you reject Oral tradition existing after the death of Saint John? You will have to re-name some of the books as generic names.

Quote
2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:

Where does Scripture explicitly say this? It doesn't!

Stop saying you believe the Bible! You don't! You believe in your own conspiracy theories and ideas. This is what you believe. You are only using the Bible as a puppet or mouthpiece to say whatever you want it to say for you refuse to double check your own interpretations with that of the fathers and other christian witnesses.

Quote
Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:

I thought the book of Revelations was written after 67 A.D.? As well as the Gospel of John and 2nd Peter and a few others. Only Presbyterian Preterists say everything was written before 70A.D. I didn't know you were a Preterist. Or maybe you are just using Presbyterian Preterist scholarship whenever it suits you. Which isn't wrong in and of itself......but still, things fit together for a reason, they are saying what they are saying for a reason, and it's not because of your reasons.

Do you accept the last part of John chapter 7 to chapter 8 as Scripture? Yes or no

Do you accept the ending of Mark chapter 16 as Scripture? Yes or no

Quote
Your argument gets confused when you link this to the canon.

I disagree, every belief has an influence on another belief. Alot of people on these boards already know that I believe philosophy to permeate everything, and so why should I change my mind about that now? Every belief influences another. They are all related somehow, all connected.


Quote
Paul seems to be referring to the OT alone as "all scripture" because he speaks of the time when "Timothy was a child:"

I know this, but what did you say when this was brought to your attention by someone else? This point alone should tell you that 2Ti 3:16-17 isn't exclusive. But for some reason you refuse to see this.

Quote
2 Tim was written about 67 AD, in Paul's culture one is a child until twelve. So if Timothy is in his late twenties, then this is pushed back at about 15 years leaving only the Old Testament and synoptic gospels and perhaps a couple of letters, James and Galatians.

So Paul's point is even more powerful, as scripture then could make the child Timothy wise INTO (eis) salvation, how much more can it now that we have the completed New Testament.

If Paul included Oral teaching, then you are missing the point. 2Ti 3:16-17 wasn't exclusive even in regards to the Old Testament. The Old Testament didn't follow Sola Scriptura, nor does the New Testament. And so why should anyone hold to Sola Scriptura now? Tertullian didn't hold to it, Saints Irenaeus, and Polycarp didn't hold to it, so why should anyone?

Quote
Paul's statements are made in history, that oral tradition and scripture coexisted for a time does not meant that is the case today, the NT is completed.

Show me where Scripture Explicitly says this? Can you show me? Didn't you say that your rule of faith was "EXPLICITLY STATED IN SCRIPTURE?"

Why didn't Tertullian believe this? Why didn't Saints Irenaeus and Polycarp believe this? Why should anyone believe such a thing today?


Quote
What make Catholics and Orthodox inconsistent is the fact the canon is closed. If the Word of God were being channeled through them in any way, their words would be scripture...the canon would still be undefined, open.

So Catholics, East and West contradict themselves, but agree with me, the canon is closed. It is irrelevant to my point we disagree what books are canon, what is material is we all agree its closed.

It depends on what you mean by Canon. I don't mean by it what you mean by it, and so depending on the context, the canon could be either open or closed.

The O.T. canon for Christians was never closed....in one sense and context, while in another sense and context it is closed. And so it all depends on how you define your terms. Also, the NT Canon of the Assyrian Church of the East is different from ours. Now this isn't a problem for us......but it is for you!

Also, you are speaking as if the Church is some mere dead human institution. Or just some mere human institution in general. The Church is much more than that. She is a Divine and human organic society.



Quote
Yours must be uncovered in the often contradictory sayings of the fathers over hundreds of years.

If you don't read the Fathers and Witnesses/nonfathers, then how can you really know?

You can't! Only those who read them can know.

Quote
Baptismal regeneration is a excellent illustration:

An excellent illustration of what? Of the fathers contradicting themselves over the centuries in regards to this point? Show me one father who didn't believe in Baptismal Regeneration?

Yes the fathers disagreed on a number of issues, but this wasn't one of those issues. You would know this if you read them.

Quote
You refuse this elegant proof neither water or hands laying are necessary for regeneration.

Your interpretation of Scripture has proven time and time again to be shotty. We see Baptismal Regeneration as being the Norm. Yes there are exceptions to the rule, but exceptions to the rule = rare! Exceptions are called Exceptions for a reason!

You make the exception the new rule! The new norm! Now how shotty is that?


Quote
You ask why you and the church fathers don't believe this,  and I do...its elementary.

You make the word of God of none effect by your tradition, and I do not, I believe what Peter reported, what God had Luke write down.

LOL, let's keep it real! You don't believe Scripture. You believe your own ideas and interpretation of Scripture.


Quote
The correct interpretation is self evident, explicit in the text, it doesn't come via any church tradition...

it comes from reading the text, the words God wrote, and believing them.


I keeps it real homie! What about you? If the Fathers and christian witnesses are reading Scripture to mean Baptismal Regeneration as being the norm, but you 2,000 years plus later are reading it to mean decision Regeneration and the exception to the rule as being the new rule, then I would say that maybe you are wrong, and they were right. For something was handed to the Saints. A teaching was passed down and yours wasn't it.

So stop calling yourself Primitive Orthodox, for you are neither primitive nor Orthodox. You reject what the fathers and early christian witnesses had to say even before the council of Nicaea and Constantinople 1.

You only represent yourself! Let's be honest......let's keep it real!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 05:54:54 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #378 on: September 11, 2010, 06:11:29 PM »

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/polycarp.html (Saint Irenaeus mentions Saint Polycarp...at the bottom of the page)
Qoute:
"But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time, a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles, that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me? "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles."
Saint Irenaeus 180 A.D. Adv. Haer., III.3.4.




As seen from above, Saint Irenaeus used not only Scripture, but also the life of Saint Polycarp. Also, as seen from the quote above, Saint Polycarp used what he knew personally to get many heretics to come back to the Church. He didn't have to use Scripture!


Tertullian
http://www.forerunner.com/churchfathers/X0067__4._Tertullian_-_De_.html (TERTULLIAN - IV. THE CHAPLET, OR DE CORONA)
Quote:
"If, for these and other such rules, you insist
upon having positive Scripture injunction, you will find none. Tradition will be
held forth to you as the originator of them, custom as their strengthener, and
faith as their observer.
That reason will support tradition, and custom, and
faith, you will either yourself perceive, or learn from some one who has.
Meanwhile you will believe that there is some reason to which submission is
due."





We can go on to talk about the rule of faith. Tertullian, Saint Irenaeus, Saint Athanasius, and Saint Vincent of Lerins all talk about it.

Bump!


Alfred Persson,


Why didn't you answer this?

I'm not a Tertullianite, or Irenaeusian, or Polycarpian, I am a Christian

So you claim.

So did Tezel Russell.

And Joseph Smith, Jr.

And for that matter Arius and Muhammad. :o


and therefore follow the example of God's servants in scripture...

Really?

I Cor. 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the Traditions just as I delivered them to you.

What traditions do you keep? Who delievered them to you?

they cited scripture, not church tradition, to prove their claims:
oh?
Quote
Acts 6:1 Now in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplying, there arose a complaint against the Hebrews by the Hellenists,because their widows were neglected in the daily distribution. 2 Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables. 3 Therefore, brethren, seek out from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business; 4 but we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word.”
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch, 6 whom they set before the apostles; and when they had prayed, they laid hands on them.
Quote
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they[e] killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.  11:1 Now the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. 2 And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those of the circumcision contended with him, 3 saying, “You went in to uncircumcised men and ate with them!”
4 But Peter explained it to them in order from the beginning, saying: 5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object descending like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came to me. 6 When I observed it intently and considered, I saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8 But I said, ‘Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’ 10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven. 11 At that very moment, three men stood before the house where I was, having been sent to me from Caesarea. 12 Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man’s house. 13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
Quote
Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

      TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

   Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
Is that scripture?
Quote
Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7 Now the men were about twelve in all.
Quote
Acts 20:16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the Day of Pentecost. 17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the presbyters of the church. 18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: “You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, 19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; 20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me. 24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you bishops, to shepherd the Church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
32 “So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. 33 I have coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel. 34 Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me. 35 I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”
Where's that in the Gospel?
Quote
Acts 22:1 “Brethren and fathers, hear my defense before you now.” 2 And when they heard that he spoke to them in the Hebrew language, they kept all the more silent.
Then he said: 3 “I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers’ law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today. 4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women, 5 as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished.
6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’
9 “And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me. 10 So I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Arise and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all things which are appointed for you to do.’ 11 And since I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of those who were with me, I came into Damascus.
12 “Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, 13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’
17 “Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance 18 and saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.’ 19 So I said, ‘Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You. 20 And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’ 21 Then He said to me, ‘Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.’”
Quote
Jude 8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”  14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Passages where the phrase "it is written" occur:
Matt. 4:4, 6, 10
5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:  ‘ He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and, ‘ In their hands they shall bear you up,Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”

Is Satan Christians?

 James 2:19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

I guess so.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 06:12:49 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #379 on: September 11, 2010, 06:49:35 PM »
Quote
1)Not a straw man. The text disproves your rule.
2)Mat 28:18 does not refer to baptismal regeneration.
3)Mark 16:14 uses "baptized" adjectivally,  that is confirmed because ONLY unbelief condemns, not failure to be baptized.

Belief that leads to Baptism = true belief, because then one is put out of the Synagogue and condemned as a follower of Christ.

To paraphrase: "He who really believes will be baptized, those who really believe will be saved...but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Baptism wasn't repeated because its irrelevant to the condemnation.

Unbelief is the only grounds for condemnation: (John 3:18, 36; Mark 16:15,16; Rom 10:9-12; Eph 4:18; 2 Pet 2:3,4; 1 John 4:3),


Compare what you said with this:

St. Gregory of Nyssa

Quote:
"The saving nature of Baptism depends on three things; Prayer, Water, and Faith. 1. It is shown how Prayer secures the Divine Presence. God is a God of truth; and He has promised to come (as Miracles prove that He has come already) if invoked in a particular way. 2. It is shown how the Deity gives life from water. In human generation, even without prayer, He gives life from a small beginning. In a higher generation He transforms matter, not into soul, but into spirit. 3. Human freedom, as evinced in faith and repentance, is also necessary to Regeneration. Being thrice dipped in the water is our earliest mortification; coming out of it is a forecast of the ease with which the pure shall rise in a blessed resurrection: the whole process is an imitation of Christ. (The Great Catechism)"


http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-roberts.html (The Epistle of Barnabas: CHAPTER XI.--BAPTISM AND THE CROSS PREFIGURED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT)
Quote:
"This meaneth, that we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit."

http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html (JUSTIN MARTYR / The Philosopher: FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN; CHAPTER LXI -- CHRISTIAN BAPTISM)
Quote:
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Nicene/Constantinople 1 creed
Quote:
"I Confess one Baptism for the remission of sins."



I'm going with their interpretations! They are the REAL Primitive Orthodox! So change your name! You are not primitive Orthodox! You don't represent them! You are a freelance/nomad/cafeteria protestant with a lower case "p". Represent that! For you only represent yourself and not a singular protestant group! You are a one man team, a one man church, a one man group.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 06:57:13 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #380 on: September 11, 2010, 07:01:57 PM »
Religionists have boxes they put God in, but He is infinite, much greater than your box. Your ideas about laying on of hands, baptisms ect are contradicted here:
If the Holy Spirit wants to descend upon those who have not (yet) been baptized and give them the same gifts He gives to the baptized, that's certainly His Divine prerogative to do so.  We, however, are bound to obey Jesus Christ, who commanded His disciples to baptize, and we are bound to obey the Holy Spirit who spoke through St. Peter the commandment that we repent and be baptized for the remission of our sins.


This  proves your rules are incorrect, God cannot be bound by your tiny ideas and limiting dogma.

You're right.  God cannot be bound by our tiny ideas and limiting dogma, but we are.  We are bound to what God has revealed of Himself and to obey what He commands us to do.

Now answer this question:  How are you not placing God in a tiny little box by limiting his revelation to the Scriptures alone?


When God the Holy Spirit fell upon me, upon my head like warm oil, my inner man was born by His Spirit, my soul became a "new creature", I was translated into His Kingdom and now sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
How sure are you that it wasn't just this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16fG1sDagU ?


You contradict yourself, you see the text that disproves your rules,

No, doesn't. The text was written to reflect our "rules."  Or is that what you mean by "yourself."

and refuse to let it correct your error,

No, we refuse your baseless and unauthorized interpretation of our text.

yet claim to obey Christ thereby.

We hold fast to what Christ gave us.  You pick and choose, trying to steal our Bible but rejecting the Church that comes with it.

That doesn't compute.

No, Perssonism doesn't, does it?

How do I know its the Holy Spirit in me,  and not a false or demonic spirit? There is an objective test, obedience to scripture:

Where do you subjectively get that objective test? Because St. Paul fails it:

I Cor. 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the Traditions just as I delivered them to you.

So much for your NT.

Observe carefully what Jesus Christ says:

"Physician, heal thyself."

 
21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
 23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
 (Mat 7:21-23 NKJ)

I swear I just saw that somewhere.
All who confess Jesus is LORD publicly are apostolic believers, they are born by the word God put in their mouth and in their heart, and by God's Spirit:

 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 (Rom 10:8-10 NKJ)

Matthew 7: 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from Me, you evildoers!
Luke 10: 16"He who listens to you listens to Me; he who rejects you rejects Me; but he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me."

I thought so.

These folks did "christian miracles," they cast out demons in Christ's name, they did signs and wonders...but not by Christ's power, He never knew them.
And you can't even do what they did.

How could they be distinguished from real Christians...only those who do "the will of my Father in heaven" are real Christians, in other words:

 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Mat 7:20 NKJ)

This principle is applied in various ways in Scripture:

 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jo 4:6 NKJ)

I had thought of starting a thread on Perssonism's teaching on sola scriptura, but decided the thread "Sola Scriptura - A Diversion From the True Word of God" would be an appropriate place to taste test, to spew out as poison, Perssonism's flavor of Sola Scriptura.

The episcopacy of the Orthodox Church, keeping which was commtted to it by the Holy Spirit, stirred up the gift of prophecy which it received by the laying on of the hands of the Apostles (and any Orthodox bishop today, by the ontological whole of the episcopate and Apostolic succession, is only an arm's length away from the Apostles), determined the canon of Scripture and its interpretation.

In fact, so great is the episcopacy, the presbyters of Acts 15, that St. Peter, introduding himself as "an [note, btw: "a," not "the"] Apostle of Jesus Christ," nonetheless identifies himself as a "fellow presbyter" when he invokes himself as a witness of Christ and a partaker of His glory, to exhort his fellow presbyters, whom he identifies as the bishops (5:1-2), and the Apostle John, the disciple whom Christ loved, doesn't give his autority to his second and third epistles as neither the Disciple nor Apostle, but as "the presbyter."

"He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." Luke 10:16  You cannot have the Church's book without the Church.

Of course, you have the free will to preach or accept another Gospel.

So when you don't hear Peter's words, how those upon whom the Spirit of God fell, before hands were laid upon them, or before they were water baptized, and you make the word of God of no effect through your tradition they must be baptized and have hands laid upon them, THEN you are not following the manifest will of Jesus' Father in heaven...you are not hearing the apostles.
This  proves your rules are incorrect,

Yet again, you stop short:
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Your incorrect interpretation (and not infallible scripture) are contradicted here Acts 8:
Quote
12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.”
From someone sent by Christ through His Apostles and the grace of the Episcopacy from St. Peter's see of Antioch, St. John Chrysostom:
Do go there and read someone who knows from the Apostles what he is talking about, and has the authority from Christ to say it.

So we hear St. Peter quite fine "baptize them in the name of the Lord."

I had thought of starting a thread on Perssonism's teaching on sola scriptura, but decided the thread "Sola Scriptura - A Diversion From the True Word of God" would be an appropriate place to taste test, to spew out as poison, Perssonism's flavor of Sola Scriptura.

So the Epistles of St. Paul claim that they were written by St. Paul.  But they state (II Corin. 13:1) "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."  So he testifies of himself.  St. Peter (at least who claims to be saint Peter: you have no other corroborating testimony) does testify (II Peter 3:15-16) of St. Paul, "even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." But that not only leaves you one witness short, but St. Peter does not give you a list of the epistles of which he speaks, and his status as a character witness, as I pointed out above, you must suspect.


However, St. Peter promises in his second epistle (1:12-15):
"12Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 13Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 14Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 15Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance"
as he had already provided for, as he states his first epistle (btw, the order is the order the Church put them in, not chronological) 5:1-2:
"The presbyters which are among you I exhort, who am also an presbyter, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, serving as bishops, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind."

(I Peter 2:)21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #381 on: September 11, 2010, 07:37:38 PM »
Alfred Persson,


Why is your rule of faith different from that of the Church Fathers? And why don't you call the book of Wisdom Scripture? Many of them did?

Why did they believe in Baptismal Regeneration while you don't? God is not a God of confusion and so why are you scared to check your interpretation if Scripture with theirs? Didn't they have the Holy Spirit too? Why would God tell them one thing......all agreeing on Baptismal Regeneration........ while you another?

Have you ever thought that maybe your interpretation came by the way of Zwingly and the American Revival movement of decision regeneration with alter calls and the anxious bench of Charles G. Finney?

I believe scripture, you believe traditions that make the word of God of none effect, that is why we differ.

No, we differ because God founded our Church in which we hold fast to the Tradition delivered by word and epistle from the Apostles.

Perssionsim is founded by Alfred Persson, believed by Alfred Persson, followed by Alfred Persson. A "church" of one.

My rule of faith, as you call it, is explicitly stated in scripture.
Our scripture? No, it is not.  You are free to put it in your other gospel.

Yours must be uncovered in the often contradictory sayings of the fathers over hundreds of years.

There are Fathers in every generation, judging from their writings, who were and are in communion with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

How many centuries does Perssonism go back? 0.
How many centuires will Perssonism last? 0.

Baptismal regeneration is a excellent illustration:

45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
 (Act 10:45-48 NKJ)

You refuse this elegant proof neither water or hands laying are necessary for regeneration.

Can you read? I've boldfaced to help you. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are many, speaking with tongues doesn't mean regeneration. As for laying on of hands, it doesn't say that St. Peter did not do that as well, after they BAPTIZED THEM WITH WATER.

You ask why you and the church fathers don't believe this,  and I do...its elementary.
The Fathers, sent by Christ through the Apostles, and consequently us, know what we are talking about
This  proves your rules are incorrect,

Yet again, you stop short:
48 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Your incorrect interpretation (and not infallible scripture) are contradicted here Acts 8:
Quote
12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.”
From someone sent by Christ through His Apostles and the grace of the Episcopacy from St. Peter's see of Antioch, St. John Chrysostom:
Quote
Observe God’s providential management. He does not suffer the speech to be finished, nor the baptism to take place upon a command of Peter, but, when He has made it evident how admirable their state of mind is, and a beginning is made of the work of teaching, and they have believed that assuredly baptism is the remission of sins, then forthwith comes the Spirit upon them. Now this is done by God’s so disposing it as to provide for Peter a mighty ground of justification...
and you don't.

You make the word of God of none effect by your tradition, and I do not, I believe the Word of God.
You make the NT of no affect by taking the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadduccees as your authority for it, and yet steal the NT from the Orthodox Church.
He speaks to us through His Church.

Luke 10:16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

The correct interpretation is self evident, explicit in the text, it doesn't come via any church tradition...

You contradict our scripture:
Acts 8:30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.  31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?"

That is how scripture views itself.  
2 Peter 1:19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2: 1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.  3:1  1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 15—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2: 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the Traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians.

So says God the Word: Luke 8:10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that ‘ Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.’
Scripture is not the word of man like your traditions even though both exist in your church. You are confusing very different things,

It says "whether by word or our epistle"

against the commandment of God not to add to His word, your traditions:

32 "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. (Deu 12:32 NKJ)

And what does he command? I Corinthians 11: 1 " 1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the Traditions just as I delivered them to you."

Again, you are the one confused, refusing to imitate the Apostles.

it comes from reading the text, the words God wrote, and believing them.
We beleive them, as we wrote them.  Where did you get them?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 07:39:22 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #382 on: September 11, 2010, 08:01:06 PM »
Religionists have boxes they put God in, but He is infinite, much greater than your box. Your ideas about laying on of hands, baptisms ect are contradicted here:
If the Holy Spirit wants to descend upon those who have not (yet) been baptized and give them the same gifts He gives to the baptized, that's certainly His Divine prerogative to do so.  We, however, are bound to obey Jesus Christ, who commanded His disciples to baptize, and we are bound to obey the Holy Spirit who spoke through St. Peter the commandment that we repent and be baptized for the remission of our sins.


This  proves your rules are incorrect, God cannot be bound by your tiny ideas and limiting dogma.

You're right.  God cannot be bound by our tiny ideas and limiting dogma, but we are.  We are bound to what God has revealed of Himself and to obey what He commands us to do.

Now answer this question:  How are you not placing God in a tiny little box by limiting his revelation to the Scriptures alone?


When God the Holy Spirit fell upon me, upon my head like warm oil, my inner man was born by His Spirit, my soul became a "new creature", I was translated into His Kingdom and now sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
How sure are you that it wasn't just this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16fG1sDagU ?


You contradict yourself, you see the text that disproves your rules, and refuse to let it correct your error, yet claim to obey Christ thereby.

That doesn't compute.

How do I know its the Holy Spirit in me,  and not a false or demonic spirit? There is an objective test, obedience to scripture:

Observe carefully what Jesus Christ says:

 21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
 23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
 (Mat 7:21-23 NKJ)


These folks did "christian miracles," they cast out demons in Christ's name, they did signs and wonders...but not by Christ's power, He never knew them.

How could they be distinguished from real Christians...only those who do "the will of my Father in heaven" are real Christians, in other words:

 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Mat 7:20 NKJ)

This principle is applied in various ways in Scripture:

 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jo 4:6 NKJ)

So when you don't hear Peter's words, how those upon whom the Spirit of God fell, before hands were laid upon them, or before they were water baptized, and you make the word of God of no effect through your tradition they must be baptized and have hands laid upon them, THEN you are not following the manifest will of Jesus' Father in heaven...you are not hearing the apostles.
I think you're fighting a straw man here, for I specifically acknowledged God's prerogative to act as He pleases for the salvation of all persons.  What you're doing is taking God's exceptional actions as the example for a norm that contradicts His clear commandment to us that we be baptized.

And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.  - Matthew 28:18-20

Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and He upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw Him after he had risen. And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.  - Mark 16:14-16

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.  - Acts 2:37-42

Can the Holy Spirit descend upon the unbaptized and give them His divine gifts, as you so state?  Indeed He can, and the Acts of the Apostles from which I just quoted show that He in fact did at times.  However, this does not nullify Christ's commandment, reiterated as it is by the very St. Peter whom you portray as somehow teaching otherwise, that we be baptized.  In this light can we understand why, even after St. Peter had witnessed the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:44, he still commanded that they be baptized in the name of the Lord.  He evidently thought in his Apostolic wisdom that the descent of the Holy Spirit alone was not enough and that the people must still obey the commandment of Christ that they be baptized.

Seeing this, how can you possibly counsel others to disobey the Lord's will by your insistence that baptism is not necessary for salvation?  The commandment that we be baptized is not the mere tradition of men, as you so preach.  The commandment that we be baptized is seen very clearly in the Gospel and in the teaching of the Apostles.  Insomuch as you preach that baptism is a man-made rule not necessary for our salvation, it is you who are not hearing the Apostles, and it is you who show not the fruit of repentance by not following the will of our Father in heaven.

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

1)Not a straw man. The text disproves your rule.
2)Mat 28:18 does not refer to baptismal regeneration.
3)Mark 16:14 uses "baptized" adjectivally,  that is confirmed because ONLY unbelief condemns, not failure to be baptized.

Belief that leads to Baptism = true belief, because then one is put out of the Synagogue and condemned as a follower of Christ.

To paraphrase: "He who really believes will be baptized, those who really believe will be saved...but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Baptism wasn't repeated because its irrelevant to the condemnation.

Unbelief is the only grounds for condemnation: (John 3:18, 36; Mark 16:15,16; Rom 10:9-12; Eph 4:18; 2 Pet 2:3,4; 1 John 4:3),

If baptism were necessary to salvation then Paul would never have said:
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you (1Co 1:14 NKJ)

4)Repent and be baptized = the answer of a good conscience towards God, that is what saves, not the water of baptism

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

This proves your rule is wrong:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. (Act 10:44 NKJ)

This is NOT "the exception that proves the rule," its the fact that proves your rule wrong.
Except for one thing:  I'm not preaching baptismal regeneration.  I'm merely taking issue with your claim that baptism is not necessary for salvation and with the formula you propose for how we are to receive the Holy Spirit.  If one knows that the will of God is that we be baptized, how can you preach otherwise and still call yourself a follower of God?
Further thoughts about this:

I see that you read in the Scriptures an example of a time when God acted in a way that was truly extraordinary: the Spirit of God descended upon Gentiles who hadn't even been baptized.  I don't deny that this happened, since St. Luke recorded it in his Acts of the Apostles.  This was an exceptional event, though, an event that shows that God will do whatever He pleases when He pleases to do so.

You, however, would make a rule out of this exception and construct a formula that, if we follow it, will bring the Holy Spirit down upon us without us having to follow the Church's rule that we be baptized and chrismated (the laying on of hands).  You tell us that all we need to do to be saved and to experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is to confess Christ publicly as Lord and Savior.  The problem with this approach, however, is that Christ and His Apostles already gave us the rule that we are to follow, and that is to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and to submit to the laying on of hands.  You would construct another rule and substitute it in place of the rule already laid out for us in Scripture.
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #383 on: September 11, 2010, 08:12:06 PM »
BTW, the doctrine of baptismal regeneration is in fact based in Scripture.

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin. But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.  - Romans 6:3-11 (the passage read on Holy Saturday and as part of the Orthodox service of baptism)
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #384 on: September 11, 2010, 08:18:29 PM »
LOL ... why do I have the feeling you're not listening?

Alfred, I did all those things as a teenager.  Been there, done that.  But listening to the Holy Spirit as well as pouring over the Scriptures brought me back to the Catholic Churchm and continuing do so so is pushing me closer to Eaastern Orthodoxy.  NOTHING you have said in any of the threads you've started here have caused the Holy Spirit to sound an alarm within me (as He has done when I've fallen into the traps of atheism, New Age religion, despair, etc.). 

Also, FWIW, many Evangelical Protestants disagree strongly with your position on all these issues.  And they have as much claim to the "born again" experience as you.  Why should we believe you and not them?

But I think the main problem with all your posts since you started here, Alfred, is that you show absolutely NO interest in learning anything about the Eastern way of Christianity - only in telling us, over and over again, that you're right and we're Hellbound.

Not scoring any points with me, Alfred - I've heard it all before.  At least Jack Chick provides some amusing artwork with his stuff. ;D

You aren't hellbound, nor is anyone who called upon the name of the LORD, they are saved.

And I believe completely in "eternal security," so becoming Orthodox (Catholic, whatever) after being born again, doesn't make you unsaved.

Just wrong.

Jesus loves you, so do I. I'm sorry if I don't live up to your expectations. I have chosen to follow Jesus, wherever He may go. The words of Thomas are mine also:

NKJ  John 11:16 Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with Him." (Joh 11:16 NKJ)

Because we know, then shall we live.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #385 on: September 11, 2010, 08:26:05 PM »
Jesus loves you, so do I. I'm sorry if I don't live up to your expectations. I have chosen to follow Jesus, wherever He may go. The words of Thomas are mine also:

NKJ  John 11:16 Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with Him." (Joh 11:16 NKJ)

The Lord's words to St. Thomas are yours also:

NKJ John 20:27 "Do not be unbelieving, but believing"
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #386 on: September 11, 2010, 08:29:30 PM »
Question: if "it doesn't make us unsaved (,) just wrong," then wherein lies the problem?   ??? 
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #387 on: September 11, 2010, 09:27:02 PM »
I'm not a Tertullianite, or Irenaeusian, or Polycarpian, I am a Christian and therefore follow the example of God's servants in scripture...they cited scripture, not church tradition, to prove their claims:

You say that, yet a few pages ago you were proudly touting all of your own "church fathers" that you consult when interpreting the scriptures. If the scriptures are so incredibly obvious, then why do you have a library of commentaries to consult? You gave us a whole list of your favorites earlier.

You can't have it both ways. You have demonstrated that commentaries on the scripture are at least useful. Yet you keep harping on us for doing the exact same thing.

So, again (since you missed it the first time):

Quote
Why is Albert Barnes (d. 1870) more authoritative than, say, St Justin Martyr (d. 165), St Ignatius of Antioch (d. 108) or Pope St Clement of Rome (d. 99)? Are you saying someone in the 19th century, or even you yourself, could understand the Apostles' teachings better than the people who worked alongside the Apostles and their disciples? Who talked to them, and heard them say things that were never put into the Bible? (For that matter Jesus—estimates say that only about 18 days of Jesus' life are accounted for in the Gospels. Yet he preached for 3 years. I guess the rest was just repeat performances not worth noting.)

You see, to us all of this is silly. It's like trying to figure out World War II by reading modern tertiary sources. Sure, you may get a gist of it, but it always risks being read through the wrong lens. Why not talk to the people who lived during that period instead?

If Protestants employed their exegetical standards in interpreting any other thing, they would be laughed right out of the field. You can't figure out what the Bible means by reading commentaries 1900 years removed from the events, written by people who reject all of the primary and secondary sources outside the Bible itself. There are witnesses to the New Testament Church apart from the New Testament, you know.

Of course, they accept Jewish sources as authoritative (note: I didn't say scripture) (such as Josephus, and many Protestants frequently run back to the Talmud for "context") and Roman government sources as well. But for some reason, the contemporary Christian sources are untrustworthy. It is a most bizarre way of looking at the world—that of all things, the Christians are untrustworthy—, and I think, fundamentally anti-Christian. It at least lacks faith in the living Holy Spirit.

Another thing I've repeatedly asked and you've ignored: is Jesus the Word of God or not?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 09:31:17 PM by bogdan »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #388 on: September 11, 2010, 09:49:11 PM »
Question: if "it doesn't make us unsaved (,) just wrong," then wherein lies the problem?   ???  

Wrong according to who? To Alfred Persson?

Alfred Persson needs to look in the mirror and judge his own interpretations.

Ours, in regards to this topic, can be traced from the first century on up. His is from Zwingly, the Anabaptists, the Brownites, and Charles G. Finney on up!

He just mentioned to Theistgirl that he believed in OSAS and so he is some sort of Baptist.....maybe. This is why I said Brownite......this is what the Puritans called the English Separatist Baptists.

But the Brownites were Particular Baptists, and Persson doesn't seem like a Calvinist. He seems more like a Calminian. Most modern North American Baptists tend to be Calminian.

It's either that or he is picking and choosing what he likes from different places and groups.

Some of the stuff he says comes from all over the place. He seems to like our view of no filique, and so he picks and chooses what he likes from different groups.

He needs to stop using the term Primitive Orthodox! He is far far far from that and he needs to stop!

He believes in OSAS, but they believed one can fall from grace! They believed one can loose their salvation!

 Persson needs to stop faking the funk! Let's keep it real homie!
« Last Edit: September 11, 2010, 10:14:53 PM by jnorm888 »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #389 on: September 12, 2010, 06:55:41 AM »
Question: if "it doesn't make us unsaved (,) just wrong," then wherein lies the problem?   ???  

Wrong according to who? To Alfred Persson?

Alfred Persson needs to look in the mirror and judge his own interpretations.

Ours, in regards to this topic, can be traced from the first century on up. His is from Zwingly, the Anabaptists, the Brownites, and Charles G. Finney on up!

He just mentioned to Theistgirl that he believed in OSAS and so he is some sort of Baptist.....maybe. This is why I said Brownite......this is what the Puritans called the English Separatist Baptists.

But the Brownites were Particular Baptists, and Persson doesn't seem like a Calvinist. He seems more like a Calminian. Most modern North American Baptists tend to be Calminian.

It's either that or he is picking and choosing what he likes from different places and groups.

Some of the stuff he says comes from all over the place. He seems to like our view of no filique, and so he picks and chooses what he likes from different groups.

He needs to stop using the term Primitive Orthodox! He is far far far from that and he needs to stop!

He believes in OSAS, but they believed one can fall from grace! They believed one can loose their salvation!

 Persson needs to stop faking the funk! Let's keep it real homie!


Stop the smears. If you want to discuss Bible, pick  a text and discuss it. Linking me to various groups I don't belong to is smear, nothing more.

It is apostolic doctrine God predestined the elect onto salvation, Paul couldn't have stated this truth more clearly:

 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
 (Rom 8:28-35 NKJ)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #390 on: September 12, 2010, 07:58:19 AM »
I'm not a Tertullianite, or Irenaeusian, or Polycarpian, I am a Christian and therefore follow the example of God's servants in scripture...they cited scripture, not church tradition, to prove their claims:

You say that, yet a few pages ago you were proudly touting all of your own "church fathers" that you consult when interpreting the scriptures. If the scriptures are so incredibly obvious, then why do you have a library of commentaries to consult? You gave us a whole list of your favorites earlier.

You can't have it both ways. You have demonstrated that commentaries on the scripture are at least useful. Yet you keep harping on us for doing the exact same thing.

So, again (since you missed it the first time):

Quote
Why is Albert Barnes (d. 1870) more authoritative than, say, St Justin Martyr (d. 165), St Ignatius of Antioch (d. 108) or Pope St Clement of Rome (d. 99)? Are you saying someone in the 19th century, or even you yourself, could understand the Apostles' teachings better than the people who worked alongside the Apostles and their disciples? Who talked to them, and heard them say things that were never put into the Bible? (For that matter Jesus—estimates say that only about 18 days of Jesus' life are accounted for in the Gospels. Yet he preached for 3 years. I guess the rest was just repeat performances not worth noting.)

You see, to us all of this is silly. It's like trying to figure out World War II by reading modern tertiary sources. Sure, you may get a gist of it, but it always risks being read through the wrong lens. Why not talk to the people who lived during that period instead?

If Protestants employed their exegetical standards in interpreting any other thing, they would be laughed right out of the field. You can't figure out what the Bible means by reading commentaries 1900 years removed from the events, written by people who reject all of the primary and secondary sources outside the Bible itself. There are witnesses to the New Testament Church apart from the New Testament, you know.

Of course, they accept Jewish sources as authoritative (note: I didn't say scripture) (such as Josephus, and many Protestants frequently run back to the Talmud for "context") and Roman government sources as well. But for some reason, the contemporary Christian sources are untrustworthy. It is a most bizarre way of looking at the world—that of all things, the Christians are untrustworthy—, and I think, fundamentally anti-Christian. It at least lacks faith in the living Holy Spirit.

Another thing I've repeatedly asked and you've ignored: is Jesus the Word of God or not?

1) 46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. (Luk 2:46 NKJ)

As Christ thought it wise to consult learned opinion, so do I.

A necessary element to considering all the options, is being aware of all the options. Many commentaries are critical, that is, they often list options and discuss anomalies one might not notice. As I am convinced normalcy and perspicuity are the products of correct exegesis, I want to be aware of these.

For example, Christendom has never resolved the tension between free will and predestination Paul caused when he wrote:

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,  (Rom 8:29 NKJ)

I believe the Orthodox are in the free will column, which Paul apparently contradicted in this text, saying we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son = saved.

Hyper predestination Calvinists see God predestining everyone, including the unsaved, overlooking the fact Paul doesn't discuss the unsaved in this context at all.

If you don't know your options, you must eventually fall into one of these two main groups or variations thereof.

But there is another option never considered by Christendom,[/b] regardless what side of this issue you are on.

It is the simple elegance of this option which resolves the tension between free will and predestination that points to its being the correct interpretation:

It rests upon a literal translation of this text:

"Because whom He foreknew AND (kai) defined beforehand to be conformed to the image"


Everyone takes "KAI" as "also", but it more literally is "and." That changes everything, then those selected to be conformed isn't dependent upon God's foreknowledge. Then there is no tension between free will and predestination in this text.

God does two things to the Elect, He foreknows them, and He predestines them. Then the question is, what was this foreknowledge. Did God have to "learn" what the future would bring via a special act of knowing. That implies He is not infinite, everywhere in time and space and beyond it.

As God's infinitude is unquestionable, we must look beyond the normal idea of "seeing into the future." The solution to me is quite clear, God foreknew the elect as they are not now, to reveal something about them, and He also predestined them to be conformed.

I believe God reveals to everyone in heaven, why He was just in predestining some to be conformed to the image of His Son, and not others. But as God's selection was already made prior to this foreknowledge and predestination, it remains entirely upon His mercy and forgiveness He selected the elect. Salvation is not based upon who they are or what they do, but upon God's mercy. As for why God chose some and not others, is not revealed in scripture and likely will never be, its none of our business. Sufficient we know God's choice was just if we apply man's concept of justice.

So our free will is ultimately allowed free exercise to chose, God didn't override free will. It is because the fall makes the correct choice unlikely for most God predestines the elect unto salvation. But the correct choice is not impossible, the non elect can be saved if they repent and believe in Christ.

So commentaries assist one is knowing options one might not realize are there. Hence I consult them just as Jesus consulted the teachers at the Temple.


3)Jesus is the Word of God, I've said nothing to imply He isn't, is your question indirect smear or did you have a point to make?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 08:06:00 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #391 on: September 12, 2010, 08:24:14 AM »
Religionists have boxes they put God in, but He is infinite, much greater than your box. Your ideas about laying on of hands, baptisms ect are contradicted here:
If the Holy Spirit wants to descend upon those who have not (yet) been baptized and give them the same gifts He gives to the baptized, that's certainly His Divine prerogative to do so.  We, however, are bound to obey Jesus Christ, who commanded His disciples to baptize, and we are bound to obey the Holy Spirit who spoke through St. Peter the commandment that we repent and be baptized for the remission of our sins.


This  proves your rules are incorrect, God cannot be bound by your tiny ideas and limiting dogma.

You're right.  God cannot be bound by our tiny ideas and limiting dogma, but we are.  We are bound to what God has revealed of Himself and to obey what He commands us to do.

Now answer this question:  How are you not placing God in a tiny little box by limiting his revelation to the Scriptures alone?


When God the Holy Spirit fell upon me, upon my head like warm oil, my inner man was born by His Spirit, my soul became a "new creature", I was translated into His Kingdom and now sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
How sure are you that it wasn't just this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16fG1sDagU ?


You contradict yourself, you see the text that disproves your rules, and refuse to let it correct your error, yet claim to obey Christ thereby.

That doesn't compute.

How do I know its the Holy Spirit in me,  and not a false or demonic spirit? There is an objective test, obedience to scripture:

Observe carefully what Jesus Christ says:

 21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
 23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
 (Mat 7:21-23 NKJ)


These folks did "christian miracles," they cast out demons in Christ's name, they did signs and wonders...but not by Christ's power, He never knew them.

How could they be distinguished from real Christians...only those who do "the will of my Father in heaven" are real Christians, in other words:

 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Mat 7:20 NKJ)

This principle is applied in various ways in Scripture:

 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jo 4:6 NKJ)

So when you don't hear Peter's words, how those upon whom the Spirit of God fell, before hands were laid upon them, or before they were water baptized, and you make the word of God of no effect through your tradition they must be baptized and have hands laid upon them, THEN you are not following the manifest will of Jesus' Father in heaven...you are not hearing the apostles.
I think you're fighting a straw man here, for I specifically acknowledged God's prerogative to act as He pleases for the salvation of all persons.  What you're doing is taking God's exceptional actions as the example for a norm that contradicts His clear commandment to us that we be baptized.

And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.  - Matthew 28:18-20

Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and He upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw Him after he had risen. And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.  - Mark 16:14-16

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.  - Acts 2:37-42

Can the Holy Spirit descend upon the unbaptized and give them His divine gifts, as you so state?  Indeed He can, and the Acts of the Apostles from which I just quoted show that He in fact did at times.  However, this does not nullify Christ's commandment, reiterated as it is by the very St. Peter whom you portray as somehow teaching otherwise, that we be baptized.  In this light can we understand why, even after St. Peter had witnessed the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:44, he still commanded that they be baptized in the name of the Lord.  He evidently thought in his Apostolic wisdom that the descent of the Holy Spirit alone was not enough and that the people must still obey the commandment of Christ that they be baptized.

Seeing this, how can you possibly counsel others to disobey the Lord's will by your insistence that baptism is not necessary for salvation?  The commandment that we be baptized is not the mere tradition of men, as you so preach.  The commandment that we be baptized is seen very clearly in the Gospel and in the teaching of the Apostles.  Insomuch as you preach that baptism is a man-made rule not necessary for our salvation, it is you who are not hearing the Apostles, and it is you who show not the fruit of repentance by not following the will of our Father in heaven.

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

1)Not a straw man. The text disproves your rule.
2)Mat 28:18 does not refer to baptismal regeneration.
3)Mark 16:14 uses "baptized" adjectivally,  that is confirmed because ONLY unbelief condemns, not failure to be baptized.

Belief that leads to Baptism = true belief, because then one is put out of the Synagogue and condemned as a follower of Christ.

To paraphrase: "He who really believes will be baptized, those who really believe will be saved...but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Baptism wasn't repeated because its irrelevant to the condemnation.

Unbelief is the only grounds for condemnation: (John 3:18, 36; Mark 16:15,16; Rom 10:9-12; Eph 4:18; 2 Pet 2:3,4; 1 John 4:3),

If baptism were necessary to salvation then Paul would never have said:
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you (1Co 1:14 NKJ)

4)Repent and be baptized = the answer of a good conscience towards God, that is what saves, not the water of baptism

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

This proves your rule is wrong:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. (Act 10:44 NKJ)

This is NOT "the exception that proves the rule," its the fact that proves your rule wrong.
Except for one thing:  I'm not preaching baptismal regeneration.  I'm merely taking issue with your claim that baptism is not necessary for salvation and with the formula you propose for how we are to receive the Holy Spirit.  If one knows that the will of God is that we be baptized, how can you preach otherwise and still call yourself a follower of God?
Further thoughts about this:

I see that you read in the Scriptures an example of a time when God acted in a way that was truly extraordinary: the Spirit of God descended upon Gentiles who hadn't even been baptized.  I don't deny that this happened, since St. Luke recorded it in his Acts of the Apostles.  This was an exceptional event, though, an event that shows that God will do whatever He pleases when He pleases to do so.

You, however, would make a rule out of this exception and construct a formula that, if we follow it, will bring the Holy Spirit down upon us without us having to follow the Church's rule that we be baptized and chrismated (the laying on of hands).  You tell us that all we need to do to be saved and to experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is to confess Christ publicly as Lord and Savior.  The problem with this approach, however, is that Christ and His Apostles already gave us the rule that we are to follow, and that is to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and to submit to the laying on of hands.  You would construct another rule and substitute it in place of the rule already laid out for us in Scripture.

Incorrect, I stated no rule, just cited a fact that refuted your rule. You want to make this an exception, that implies you know how everyone throughout the centuries were saved, and that this is an exception to that. That clearly is wrong.

It is apostolic doctrine all who confess Christ publicly as LORD will be saved (Rom 10:8ff), there is no problem with his approach at all, except with your tradition of laying on of hands, it proves that rule unsound. You cannot make the word of God of none effect to keep your traditions, that is unChristian:

NKJ  Mark 7:13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down (Mar 7:13 NKJ)

The apostles didn't make rules about this, they learned what God did via scripture, and experience:

 8 "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,
 9 "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
 10 "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
 (Act 15:8-10 NKJ)

I ask you a related question, why do you test God, putting Him in a box of your own making. He doesn't have to follow your rules, and for you to suggest He does, is wrong, incorrect according to the scripture.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #392 on: September 12, 2010, 08:33:04 AM »
Question: if "it doesn't make us unsaved (,) just wrong," then wherein lies the problem?   ???  

Rewards are based upon how well you built upon the one foundation of Christ:

 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 (1Co 3:10-15 NKJ)

In the above, traditions of men are the "straw", apostolic doctrine the "gold", the other materials in between these extremes.

If your house is made of straw, traditions of men that nullify the Word of God, it cannot withstand the fire of God's inspection in the day of Judgment, you won't have any rewards, BUT you yourself will be saved, yet as though you fled a burning house having only the clothing on your back. Everything you thought you had, would be lost.

If your house is made of gold, apostolic doctrine, then fire doesn't diminish it at all, one strolls out into the light of God carrying all they possess in His name, entering the joy of his Master.


Another way of saying this:

 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;
 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
 (2Pe 1:10-11 NKJ)

Make your practice of Christianity consistent with the truth, then you will never stumble, and a great reward awaits you in the Kingdom, an entrance that is like a parade in your honor!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 08:48:19 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #393 on: September 12, 2010, 11:20:54 AM »
Alfred, good morning: my question of a couple of days ago got lost in the deluge :) , so let me ask again:

Have you ever attended an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy (or any other service) or at least been inside an Eastern Church?

I'm just curious.  Thanks and may our Lord Jesus Christ bless you this lovely Sunday! :)
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #394 on: September 12, 2010, 02:40:23 PM »

If you are indeed adept at deductive logic as you claim to be, you do know the way to arrive to a conclusion from a set of premises. One can make an error of logic when the conclusion does not follow the premises. Or, one can show that the conclusion follows the premises but the argument falls flat because at least one of the premises is false. Therefore, for an argument to be valid, one must prove that (a) the premises are true and (b) the conclusion logically follows from the premises. Note that even if an argument is valid--done in "clear (or critical) thinking," the argument may not carry weight because you may have (a) omitted some premises, (b) misstated one or more premises, or (c) misrepresented a premise as factual, whereas it may be a leap of faith, unsupported by anything other than by itself. You follow so far? (I'll continue later after I receive your answer).  


Good, you are learning. Now revisit Paul's simple intent, to deny evil deceivers who claimed their traditions were necessary to be wise unto salvation...that without their traditions, Timothy was incomplete, lacking the full traditions necessary to be saved and serve God:

Paul rejected their claims, To paraphrase:

Contrary to what they say, you (Timothy) already know God's truth having learned it from God fearing men who practice what they preach, setting their seal they actually believe it, unlike those deceivers.

Also Scripture, which you have known since being a child, is able to make wise unto salvation WITHOUT THEM...In fact, this is why God inspired scripture, to completely equip men of God for every good work:



 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:13-1 NKJ)

I am glad that you approve. Frankly, I was afraid that I was not entirely correct in my run down of the basics of deductive logic (as I had attended my first course in logic back in 1974). Now, let me ask you couple of questions:

1. Is it an act of faith or is it an act of logic to believe that the New Testament Church practices and beliefs are contained entirely in the New Testament, which is factually a library of books selected for inclusion in the canon some time after the New Testament Church?

2. If it is both an act of faith and an act of logic, would you agree that the logic part is in essence a conclusion that rests upon some necessary premises and what are those premises? Furthermore, would you agree that the faith part does not have to rest upon premises and thus may not be a logical conclusion and thus cannot be used as a premise?

3. Would you agree that circular reasoning is faulty reasoning? Example: I believe that the New Testament Church practices and beliefs are contained entirely in the New Testament because the New Testament describes practices and beliefs of the New Testament Church. I will give you a hint my young friend: the key words are "contained entirely."

I will continue after you have answered my three questions.

I don't do interrogatories, I find such fishing expeditions tiring and inefficient. If you have an argument to make, state it.

So far, while you are still asking questions, my exegesis of Paul's words is left standing unaffected. So its AP 1, SC 0.

What you hope to gain by evading it is unknown, I will certainly cite your evasion as proof you cannot address it...and I won't travel down the interrogatory lane with you...unless compelled by court order.


My argument is quite simple: You are not the "clear thinking," logical person you portray yourself to be. At best, you are misguided; at worst, you are a wolf in sheep's clothing. I am done with you. May the Lord guide you and save you from yourself.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #395 on: September 12, 2010, 03:42:39 PM »
Religionists have boxes they put God in, but He is infinite, much greater than your box. Your ideas about laying on of hands, baptisms ect are contradicted here:
If the Holy Spirit wants to descend upon those who have not (yet) been baptized and give them the same gifts He gives to the baptized, that's certainly His Divine prerogative to do so.  We, however, are bound to obey Jesus Christ, who commanded His disciples to baptize, and we are bound to obey the Holy Spirit who spoke through St. Peter the commandment that we repent and be baptized for the remission of our sins.


This  proves your rules are incorrect, God cannot be bound by your tiny ideas and limiting dogma.

You're right.  God cannot be bound by our tiny ideas and limiting dogma, but we are.  We are bound to what God has revealed of Himself and to obey what He commands us to do.

Now answer this question:  How are you not placing God in a tiny little box by limiting his revelation to the Scriptures alone?


When God the Holy Spirit fell upon me, upon my head like warm oil, my inner man was born by His Spirit, my soul became a "new creature", I was translated into His Kingdom and now sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
How sure are you that it wasn't just this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16fG1sDagU ?


You contradict yourself, you see the text that disproves your rules, and refuse to let it correct your error, yet claim to obey Christ thereby.

That doesn't compute.

How do I know its the Holy Spirit in me,  and not a false or demonic spirit? There is an objective test, obedience to scripture:

Observe carefully what Jesus Christ says:

 21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
 23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
 (Mat 7:21-23 NKJ)


These folks did "christian miracles," they cast out demons in Christ's name, they did signs and wonders...but not by Christ's power, He never knew them.

How could they be distinguished from real Christians...only those who do "the will of my Father in heaven" are real Christians, in other words:

 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them. (Mat 7:20 NKJ)

This principle is applied in various ways in Scripture:

 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jo 4:6 NKJ)

So when you don't hear Peter's words, how those upon whom the Spirit of God fell, before hands were laid upon them, or before they were water baptized, and you make the word of God of no effect through your tradition they must be baptized and have hands laid upon them, THEN you are not following the manifest will of Jesus' Father in heaven...you are not hearing the apostles.
I think you're fighting a straw man here, for I specifically acknowledged God's prerogative to act as He pleases for the salvation of all persons.  What you're doing is taking God's exceptional actions as the example for a norm that contradicts His clear commandment to us that we be baptized.

And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.  - Matthew 28:18-20

Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and He upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw Him after he had risen. And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.  - Mark 16:14-16

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.  - Acts 2:37-42

Can the Holy Spirit descend upon the unbaptized and give them His divine gifts, as you so state?  Indeed He can, and the Acts of the Apostles from which I just quoted show that He in fact did at times.  However, this does not nullify Christ's commandment, reiterated as it is by the very St. Peter whom you portray as somehow teaching otherwise, that we be baptized.  In this light can we understand why, even after St. Peter had witnessed the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Gentiles in Acts 10:44, he still commanded that they be baptized in the name of the Lord.  He evidently thought in his Apostolic wisdom that the descent of the Holy Spirit alone was not enough and that the people must still obey the commandment of Christ that they be baptized.

Seeing this, how can you possibly counsel others to disobey the Lord's will by your insistence that baptism is not necessary for salvation?  The commandment that we be baptized is not the mere tradition of men, as you so preach.  The commandment that we be baptized is seen very clearly in the Gospel and in the teaching of the Apostles.  Insomuch as you preach that baptism is a man-made rule not necessary for our salvation, it is you who are not hearing the Apostles, and it is you who show not the fruit of repentance by not following the will of our Father in heaven.

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

1)Not a straw man. The text disproves your rule.
2)Mat 28:18 does not refer to baptismal regeneration.
3)Mark 16:14 uses "baptized" adjectivally,  that is confirmed because ONLY unbelief condemns, not failure to be baptized.

Belief that leads to Baptism = true belief, because then one is put out of the Synagogue and condemned as a follower of Christ.

To paraphrase: "He who really believes will be baptized, those who really believe will be saved...but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Baptism wasn't repeated because its irrelevant to the condemnation.

Unbelief is the only grounds for condemnation: (John 3:18, 36; Mark 16:15,16; Rom 10:9-12; Eph 4:18; 2 Pet 2:3,4; 1 John 4:3),

If baptism were necessary to salvation then Paul would never have said:
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you (1Co 1:14 NKJ)

4)Repent and be baptized = the answer of a good conscience towards God, that is what saves, not the water of baptism

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

This proves your rule is wrong:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. (Act 10:44 NKJ)

This is NOT "the exception that proves the rule," its the fact that proves your rule wrong.
Except for one thing:  I'm not preaching baptismal regeneration.  I'm merely taking issue with your claim that baptism is not necessary for salvation and with the formula you propose for how we are to receive the Holy Spirit.  If one knows that the will of God is that we be baptized, how can you preach otherwise and still call yourself a follower of God?
Further thoughts about this:

I see that you read in the Scriptures an example of a time when God acted in a way that was truly extraordinary: the Spirit of God descended upon Gentiles who hadn't even been baptized.  I don't deny that this happened, since St. Luke recorded it in his Acts of the Apostles.  This was an exceptional event, though, an event that shows that God will do whatever He pleases when He pleases to do so.

You, however, would make a rule out of this exception and construct a formula that, if we follow it, will bring the Holy Spirit down upon us without us having to follow the Church's rule that we be baptized and chrismated (the laying on of hands).  You tell us that all we need to do to be saved and to experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is to confess Christ publicly as Lord and Savior.  The problem with this approach, however, is that Christ and His Apostles already gave us the rule that we are to follow, and that is to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and to submit to the laying on of hands.  You would construct another rule and substitute it in place of the rule already laid out for us in Scripture.

Incorrect, I stated no rule, just cited a fact that refuted your rule. You want to make this an exception, that implies you know how everyone throughout the centuries were saved, and that this is an exception to that. That clearly is wrong.
Not asserting that I know how everyone throughout the centuries was saved.  I'm just saying that God has given us the rules that we are to follow, and you would counsel us to not act according to these God-given rules in keeping with your tradition.

It is apostolic doctrine all who confess Christ publicly as LORD will be saved (Rom 10:8ff),
It is indeed apostolic doctrine, but I don't think the doctrine means what you think it means.

there is no problem with his approach at all,
There is a problem when you would isolate this doctrine from the rest of apostolic doctrine and make this confession of faith sufficient in and of itself for salvation.  In keeping with the Gospel of our Savior, the Apostles Peter and Paul ALSO preached baptism for the remission of sins and even practiced what they preached.  For instance:

And they (Ss. Paul and Silas) said (to the Philippian jailer), "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their wounds, and he was baptized at once, with all his family.  - Acts 16:31-33

According to your interpretation of Romans 10:9 (and likewise, Acts 16:31), simple confession of and belief in the Lord Jesus Christ should have been sufficient for the jailer's salvation, but that's not what we see in the Scriptures.  With Paul, Silas, and the Philippian jailer, belief in Christ necessarily led to baptism.  This belief in Christ manifesting itself in baptism, then, is the formula God has given us to follow if we desire to be saved and become His disciples.  (Have you ever thought that baptism itself is a confession of faith?)


except with your tradition of laying on of hands,
Which actually has apostolic precedent:

Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.  - Acts 8:14-17

If the Apostles Peter and John, who both wrote books now contained in our NT, thought it necessary to lay their hands on the newly baptized that they may receive the Holy Spirit, how much more important is it for us who seek to follow their example that we do the same?

it proves that rule unsound. You cannot make the word of God of none effect to keep your traditions, that is unChristian:
What?  The apostolic traditions that we be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and that we receive the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands (chrismation)?  I thought we were supposed to keep the traditions of the Apostles.

The apostles didn't make rules about this, they learned what God did via scripture, and experience:

 8 "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,
 9 "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
 10 "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
 (Act 15:8-10 NKJ)

I ask you a related question, why do you test God, putting Him in a box of your own making. He doesn't have to follow your rules, and for you to suggest He does, is wrong, incorrect according to the scripture.
Actually, Alfred, you need to read my posts more carefully if you think I'm trying to put God in a box of my own making.  I have in fact stated quite explicitly the exact opposite of what you're putting into my mouth, and in the very posts you just quoted.  I acknowledge fully God's prerogative to act as He wishes and in ways that run counter to the rules we men love to make to constrain Him.  I just recognize that He has given US rules that WE are bound to follow if we desire to receive His blessings.  It is God's rule that we be baptized.  It is God's rule that we receive the Holy Spirit via the laying on of hands.  Whereas God does not necessarily refuse to act upon those righteous who don't know His rules--after all, He is God, and He will do what He pleases so that, if possible, all may be saved--He has promised us that He will bless those who follow His rules, and we know His promises are sure.

Now, I noticed that you still owe me answers to more than one of the questions I've asked of you, so I'll ask them again.
1.  Are you going to address our belief that Tradition is the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church?
2.  How are you not placing God in a tiny little box by restricting His revelation to the Scriptures alone?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 03:56:39 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #396 on: September 12, 2010, 03:58:12 PM »
Alfred, good morning: my question of a couple of days ago got lost in the deluge :) , so let me ask again:

Have you ever attended an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy (or any other service) or at least been inside an Eastern Church?

I'm just curious.  Thanks and may our Lord Jesus Christ bless you this lovely Sunday! :)

Years ago, as I entered I noticed the icons, turned around and left...being iconoclast at heart. I object to crosses etc also, images have no place in the "worship stream." Off to the side, pictures, crosses etc are ok, but not as an image folks might look to, as they pray...

That is fundamentally wrong, God will not share praise or glory with an image:

I am the Lord God: that is my name: I will not give my glory to another, nor my praises to graven images. (Isa 42:8 LXE)

« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 03:58:49 PM by Alfred Persson »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #397 on: September 12, 2010, 04:20:49 PM »
Alfred, have you ever read this transcript of an interview with Dr. Ben Witherington III, a professor at Asbury Theological Seminary?  I think you may find it enlightening reading.

The Problem with Evangelical Theologies
Published in Christianity Today, November 2005, Vol. 49, No. 11

Quote
So, what is the problem with evangelical theology?

It has exegetical weaknesses that are not recognized or owned up to by the various evangelical Protestant strains of theology. That's what it boils down to.

You write that in our distinctives, we are least faithful to the Word. What do you mean?

The issue is not really with Christology, the Trinity, the virginal conception, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, or the Bible as the Word of God. The issues I'm concerned about are the distinctives of Calvinist, Arminian, dispensational, or Pentecostal theology. When they try to go some particular direction that's specific to their theological system, that's precisely the point in their argument at which they are exegetically weakest.

The Calvinist system links the ideas of predestination, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints. Each of those has its own exegetical weaknesses, especially perseverance of the saints.

But the same can be said about the distinctives of Arminian theology, especially when you start talking about having an experience of perfection in this lifetime. There are problems matching that up with what the New Testament says about perfection.

The same can be said about Pentecostal theology, with its teaching about a second, definitive work of grace, and about dispensationalism, with its teaching on pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation rapture. I show in my book that all of these evangelical theological systems are exegetically vulnerable precisely in their distinctives.

And later in the same interview:
Quote
In the book, your theological critique is made on the way to discussing a larger concern.

Part of the problem is the temptation to form our theology almost independently of doing our exegesis. We run to the biblical text to shore up or find proof texts for things we already believe.

In addition, we are all children of the Enlightenment, so we've tended to treat the Bible as if it were a history of ideas, where topics like soteriology, justification, the new birth, sanctification, going on to perfection, and glorification were the main themes, and our job was to link one idea to another. But in Scripture, we're not talking about a history of ideas but about spiritual realities in people's lives, about people who have stories and encounters with God. If you read the Bible carefully, on or below the surface of all of these texts is narrative, especially the story of Christ, but also the Old Testament stories of Adam and Moses and Abraham, and the story of Christians as recounted in Acts and elsewhere in the New Testament.

I think part of the problem is that we are still doing theology in an Enlightenment frame of mind, as if it were a string of ideas that we should logically link together, and once we've produced a nice logical circle, then we're home free. The truth is that life is a lot messier than that, and the Bible is more about stories than the history of ideas that are embedded in the stories.

The full interview can be read here:  http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/november/23.66.html?start=1

You may also find it interesting that Dr. Witherington closes this conversation with statements of admiration for the exegeses of Ss. Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzus, and particularly John Chrysostom, three of the giants of the Orthodox theological tradition.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 04:24:03 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #398 on: September 12, 2010, 05:41:26 PM »
Alfred, good morning: my question of a couple of days ago got lost in the deluge :) , so let me ask again:

Have you ever attended an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy (or any other service) or at least been inside an Eastern Church?

I'm just curious.  Thanks and may our Lord Jesus Christ bless you this lovely Sunday! :)

Years ago, as I entered I noticed the icons, turned around and left...being iconoclast at heart. I object to crosses etc also, images have no place in the "worship stream." Off to the side, pictures, crosses etc are ok, but not as an image folks might look to, as they pray...



So... what church DO you go to?  I can't remember the last time I was in any Protestant church that didn't have a cross hanging right smack dab over the lectern.
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Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #399 on: September 12, 2010, 07:41:37 PM »
Alfred, have you ever read this transcript of an interview with Dr. Ben Witherington III, a professor at Asbury Theological Seminary?  I think you may find it enlightening reading.

The Problem with Evangelical Theologies
Published in Christianity Today, November 2005, Vol. 49, No. 11

Quote
So, what is the problem with evangelical theology?

It has exegetical weaknesses that are not recognized or owned up to by the various evangelical Protestant strains of theology. That's what it boils down to.

You write that in our distinctives, we are least faithful to the Word. What do you mean?

The issue is not really with Christology, the Trinity, the virginal conception, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, or the Bible as the Word of God. The issues I'm concerned about are the distinctives of Calvinist, Arminian, dispensational, or Pentecostal theology. When they try to go some particular direction that's specific to their theological system, that's precisely the point in their argument at which they are exegetically weakest.

The Calvinist system links the ideas of predestination, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints. Each of those has its own exegetical weaknesses, especially perseverance of the saints.

But the same can be said about the distinctives of Arminian theology, especially when you start talking about having an experience of perfection in this lifetime. There are problems matching that up with what the New Testament says about perfection.

The same can be said about Pentecostal theology, with its teaching about a second, definitive work of grace, and about dispensationalism, with its teaching on pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation rapture. I show in my book that all of these evangelical theological systems are exegetically vulnerable precisely in their distinctives.

And later in the same interview:
Quote
In the book, your theological critique is made on the way to discussing a larger concern.

Part of the problem is the temptation to form our theology almost independently of doing our exegesis. We run to the biblical text to shore up or find proof texts for things we already believe.

In addition, we are all children of the Enlightenment, so we've tended to treat the Bible as if it were a history of ideas, where topics like soteriology, justification, the new birth, sanctification, going on to perfection, and glorification were the main themes, and our job was to link one idea to another. But in Scripture, we're not talking about a history of ideas but about spiritual realities in people's lives, about people who have stories and encounters with God. If you read the Bible carefully, on or below the surface of all of these texts is narrative, especially the story of Christ, but also the Old Testament stories of Adam and Moses and Abraham, and the story of Christians as recounted in Acts and elsewhere in the New Testament.

I think part of the problem is that we are still doing theology in an Enlightenment frame of mind, as if it were a string of ideas that we should logically link together, and once we've produced a nice logical circle, then we're home free. The truth is that life is a lot messier than that, and the Bible is more about stories than the history of ideas that are embedded in the stories.

The full interview can be read here:  http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/november/23.66.html?start=1

You may also find it interesting that Dr. Witherington closes this conversation with statements of admiration for the exegeses of Ss. Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzus, and particularly John Chrysostom, three of the giants of the Orthodox theological tradition.

He is right, I disagree on all those subjects, I've already mentioned Predestination above...Cessationism is the correct view on the gifts (look it up), as for the Rapture, its clear that occurs AT Christ's second coming, to clear the earth of believers, so He can punish the earth without harming them:

NKJ  1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1Th 4:17 NKJ)

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
 (Rev 14:15-20 KJV)

Scripture is clear, their desire to not follow scripture is also clear. I fail to see your point, I already confessed all have gone astray in some area...

I am here asking only one thing, that you remove all the obstacles to Christ reigning in your heart. Whether you remain Orthodox, or join a pentecostal sect, is not my concern. If your conscience is clear with your LORD, may you have peace.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #400 on: September 12, 2010, 08:06:45 PM »
Alfred Persson,

What you said in regards to history and Romans chapter 8 is false. You would of known that if you read the eastern fathers and the western fathers before the late Augustine. As well as the pre-Augustinian nonfathers....both east and west.

Quote
For example, Christendom has never resolved the tension between free will and predestination Paul caused when he wrote:

This is pure nonsense! The Christian East never had a tension in this area. This only became a tension in the christian west after Saint Augustine changed his mind on the issue in his later years. From that time onward, it has become an issue. You need to stop calling yourself Primitive Orthodox! It's an insult!


Quote
As Christ thought it wise to consult learned opinion, so do I.

You refuse to double check your interpretations with the fathers and witnesses. And you refuse to acknowledge that you have been influenced by all kinds of different protestant teachings and movements that often contradict each other.

Quote
If you don't know your options, you must eventually fall into one of these two main groups or variations thereof.

Something was passed down to the next generation! So one of those views was obviously the correct one. You would have known this if you didn't have church father phobia!

You are scared to double check your views with the fathers and nonfathers/witnesses. Admit it!


Quote
It is the simple elegance of this option which resolves the tension between free will and predestination that points to its being the correct interpretation:

The correct interpretation is the original! Stop calling yourself Primitive Orthodox! It's an insult!


Quote
Stop the smears.

What smears? I was just pointing out all your influences! We are all influenced by something....whether we know about it or don't know about it doesn't matter. Your belief in OSAS actually has an origin, it's not my fault you don't know the history of the things you advocate.

How can you call yourself Primitive Orthodox when people before the birth of John Calvin believed that one can fall away from grace? Historic Christianity taught that one can loose their Salvation! So why in the world are you calling yourself Primitive Orthodox? OSAS is the modern watered down form of the Calvinistic POTS.

You are not Primitive Orthodox!


Quote
If you want to discuss Bible, pick  a text and discuss it. Linking me to various groups I don't belong to is smear, nothing more.

I thought I was doing both? Both discussing the Bible as well as linking you to various groups and movements. Ok, you may not belong to any of those groups, but you sure were heavily influenced by them.

You wouldn't be saying some of the stuff you are if you weren't influenced by them.

Quote
It is apostolic doctrine God predestined the elect onto salvation, Paul couldn't have stated this truth more clearly:

What was the interpretation passed on to the next generation of Christians? And what did that group pass on?


Saint Barnabas: The Epistle of Barnabas
Chapter III.-The Fasts of the Jews are Not True Fasts, Nor Acceptable to God.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/his/ad/ecf/ant/barnabas/view.cgi?file=anf01-41.htm
"To this end, therefore, brethren, He is long-suffering, foreseeing how the people whom He has prepared shall with guilelessness believe in His Beloved. For He revealed all these things to us beforehand, that we should not rush forward as rash acceptors of their laws."

Chapter VI.-The Sufferings of Christ, and the New Covenant, Were Announced by the Prophets.
"Behold, therefore, we have been refashioned, as again He says in another prophet, "Behold, saith the Lord, I will take away from these, that is, from those whom the Spirit of the Lord foresaw, their stony hearts, and I will put hearts of flesh within them,"(74) because He(75) was to be manifested in flesh, and to sojourn among us. For, my brethren, the habitation of our heart is a holy temple to the Lord."

Saint Irenaeus
Book V
Chapter I.-Christ Alone is Able to Teach Divine Things, and to Redeem Us:
We-who were but lately created by the only best and good Being, by Him also who has the gift of immortality, having been formed after His likeness (predestinated, according to the prescience of the Father, that we, who had as yet no existence, might come into being), and made the first-fruits of creation(3) -have received, in the times known beforehand, [the blessings of salvation] according to the ministration of the Word, who is perfect in all things, as the mighty Word, and very man, who, redeeming us by His own blood in a manner consonant to reason, gave Himself as a redemption for those who had been led into captivity.


Saint Justine Martyr / Philosopher
Dialogue with Trypho
Chapter XLII
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html
And in short, sirs," said I, "by enumerating all the other appointments of Moses I can demonstrate that they were types, and symbols, and declarations of those things which would happen to Christ, of those who it was foreknown were to believe in Him, and of those things which would also be done by Christ Himself. But since what I have now enumerated appears to me to be sufficient, I revert again to the order of the discourse.


Dialogue with Trypho
Chapter LXX
And this prophecy proves that we shall behold this very King with glory; and the very terms of the prophecy declare loudly, that the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord. Moreover, these Scriptures are equally explicit in saying, that those who are reputed to know the writings of the Scriptures, and who hear the prophecies, have no understanding.


Dialogue with Trypho
CHAPTER CXVIII
And we have not in vain believed in Him, and have not been led astray by those who taught us such doctrines; but this has come to pass through the wonderful foreknowledge of God, in order that we, through the calling of the new and eternal covenant, that is, of Christ, might be found more intelligent and God-fearing than yourselves, who are considered to be lovers of God and men of understanding, but are not.

Dialogue with Trypho
Chapter CXL
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness.' Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded," that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God's fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be.

Dialogue with Trypho
Chapter CXLI
But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, 'Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;' that is, having repented of his sins, that he may receive remission of them from God; and not as you deceive yourselves, and some others who resemble you in this, who say, that even though they be sinners, but know God, the Lord will not impute sin to them. We have as proof of this the one fall of David, which happened through his boasting, which was forgiven then when he so mourned and wept, as it is written.



Theophilus of Antioch
Book I.
Chapter IV
http://www.searchgodsword.org/his/ad/ecf/ant/theophilusofantioch/view.cgi?file=anf02-41.htm
And He is without beginning, because He is unbegotten; and He is unchangeable, because He is immortal. And he is called God [eov] on account of His having placed [teqeikenai] all things on security afforded by Himself; and on account of [qeein], forqeein means running, and moving, and being active, and nourishing, and foreseeing, and governing, and making all things alive.

Theophilus of Antioch
Book II
http://www.searchgodsword.org/his/ad/ecf/ant/theophilusofantioch/view.cgi?file=anf02-42.htm
For the divine wisdom foreknew that some would trifle and name a multitude of gods that do not exist. In order, therefore, that the living God might be known by His works, and that [it might be known that] by His Word God created the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, he said, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."


Tatian
Chapter VII.-Concerning the Fall of Man.
http://www.searchgodsword.org/his/ad/ecf/ant/tatian/view.cgi?file=anf02-37.htm
For the heavenly Logos, a spirit emanating from the Father and a Logos from the Logos-power, in imitation of the Father who begat Him made man an image of immortality, so that, as incorruption is with God, in like manner, man, sharing in a part of God, might have the immortal principle also. The Logos,(19) too, before the creation of men, was the Framer of angels. And each of these two orders of creatures was made free to act as it pleased, not having the nature of good, which again is with God alone, but is brought to perfection in men through their freedom of choice, in order that the bad man may be justly punished, having become depraved through his own fault, but the just man be deservedly praised for his virtuous deeds, since in the exercise of his free choice he refrained from transgressing the will of God. Such is the constitution of things in reference to angels and men. And the power of the Logos, having in itself a faculty to foresee future events, not as fated, but as taking place by the choice of free agents, foretold from time to time the issues of things to come; it also became a forbidder of wickedness by means of prohibitions, and the encomiast of those who remained good.


Clement of Alexandria
Chapter VI
http://www.searchgodsword.org/his/ad/ecf/ant/clementofalexandria/view.cgi?file=anf02-86.htm
He was asked respecting those things on account of which He descended, which He inculcates, which He teaches, which He offers, in order to show the essence of the Gospel, that it is the gift of eternal life. For He foresaw as God, both what He would be asked, and what each one would answer Him. For who should do this more than the Prophet of prophets, and the Lord of' every prophetic spirit?


Tertullian
http://www.searchgodsword.org/his/ad/ecf/ant/tertullian/view.cgi?file=anf03-29.htm
Book II
Chapter V.-Marcion's Cavils Considered. His Objection Refuted, I.e., Man's Fall Showed Failure in God. The Perfection of Man's Being Lay in His Liberty, Which God Purposely Bestowed on Him. The Fall Imputable to Man's Own Choice.

Now then, ye dogs, whom the apostle puts outside,(70) and who yelp at the God of truth, let us come to your various questions. These are the bones of contention, which you are perpetually gnawing! If God is good, and prescient of the future, and able to avert evil, why did He permit man, the very image and likeness of Himself, and, by the origin of his soul, His own substance too, to be deceived by the devil, and fall from obedience of the law into death? For if He had been good, and so unwilling that such a catastrophe should happen, and prescient, so as not to be ignorant of what was to come to pass, and powerful enough to hinder its occurrence, that issue would never have come about, which should be impossible under these three conditions of the divine greatness. Since, however, it has occurred, the contrary proposition is most certainly true, that God must be deemed neither good, nor prescient, nor powerful. For as no such issue could have happened had God been such as He is reputed-good, and prescient, and mighty-so has this issue actually happened, because He is not such a God. In reply, we must first vindicate those attributes in the Creator which are called in question-namely, His goodness and foreknowledge, and power. But I shall not linger long over this point(71) for Christ's own definition(72) comes to our aid at once. From works must proofs be obtained. The Creator's works testify at once to His goodness, since they are good, as we have shown, and to His power, since they are mighty, and spring indeed out of nothing. And even if they were made out of some (previous) matter, as some(73) will have it, they are even thus out of nothing, because they were not what they are. In short, both they are great because they are good; and(74) God is likewise mighty, because all things are His own, whence He is almighty. But what shall I say of His prescience, which has for its witnesses as many prophets as it inspired? After all,(75) what title to prescience do we look for in the Author of the universe, since it was by this very attribute that He foreknew all things when He appointed them their places, and appointed them their places when He fore knew them? There is sin itself. If He had not foreknown this, He would not have proclaimed a caution against it under the penalty of death. Now if there were in God such attributes as must have rendered it both impossible and improper for any evil to have happened to man,(76) and yet evil did occur, let us consider man's condition also-whether it were not, in fact, rather the cause why that came to pass which could not have happened through God. I find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God's image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature. For it was not by his face, and by the lineaments of his body, though they were so varied in his human nature, that he expressed his likeness to the form of God; but he showed his stamp(77) in that essence which he derived from God Himself (that is, the spiritual,(78) which answered to the form of God), and in the freedom and power of his will. This his state was confirmed even by the very law which God then imposed upon him. For a law would not be imposed upon one who had it not in his power to render that obedience which is due to law; nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will. So in the Creator's subsequent laws also you will find, when He sets before man good and evil, life and death, that the entire course of discipline is arranged in precepts by God's calling men from sin, and threatening and exhorting them; and this on no other ground than(79) that man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance.


Tertullian
Book V
Chapter 1
http://www.searchgodsword.org/his/ad/ecf/ant/tertullian/view.cgi?file=anf03-35.htm
He foresaw that Paul would arise out of the tribe of Benjamin, a voracious wolf, devouring his prey in the morning: in order words, in the early period of his life he would devastate the Lord's sheep, as a persecutor of the churches; but in the evening he would give them nourishment, which means that in his declining years he would educate the fold of Christ, as the teacher of the Gentiles.


Tertullian
http://www.searchgodsword.org/his/ad/ecf/ant/tertullian/view.cgi?file=anf03-47.htm
On Repentance
Chapter VI
For who will grant to you, a man of so faithless repentance, one single sprinkling of any water whatever? To approach it by stealth, indeed, and to get the minister appointed over this business misled by your asseverations, is easy; but God takes foresight for His own treasure, and suffers not the unworthy to steal a march upon it. What, in fact, does He say? "Nothing hid which shall not be revealed."(52) Draw whatever (veil of) darkness you please over your deeds, "God is light."(53) But some think as if God were under a necessity  of bestowing even on the unworthy, what He has engaged (to give); and they turn His liberality into slavery. But if it is of necessity that God grants us the symbol of death,(54) then He does so unwilling. But who permits a gift to be permanently retained which he has granted unwillingly? For do not many afterward fall out of (grace)? is not this gift taken away from many? These, no doubt, are they who do steal a march upon (the treasure), who, after approaching to the faith of repentance, set up on the sands a house doomed to ruin. Let no one, then, flatter himself on the ground of being assigned to the "recruit-classes" of learners, as if on that account he have a licence even now to sin. As soon as you "know the Lord,(55) you should fear Him; as soon as you have gazed on Him, you should reverence Him. But what difference does your "knowing" Him make, while you rest in the same practises as in days bygone, when you knew Him not?




The view changed when Saint Augustine changed his mind on the issue. He use to believe like everyone else on the issue. The consensus was broken with Saint Augustine and those who follow his tradition on the issue.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 08:15:45 PM by jnorm888 »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #401 on: September 12, 2010, 08:27:00 PM »
Alfred Persson,

What you said in regards to history and Romans chapter 8 is false. You would of known that if you read the eastern fathers and the western fathers before the late Augustine. As well as the pre-Augustinian nonfathers....both east and west.

Quote
For example, Christendom has never resolved the tension between free will and predestination Paul caused when he wrote:

This is pure nonsense! The Christian East never had a tension in this area. This only became a tension in the christian west after Saint Augustine changed his mind on the issue in his later years. From that time onward, it has become an issue. You need to stop calling yourself Primitive Orthodox! It's an insult!


I am a primitive Orthodox, get used to it.

If you cannot see why there is tension between free will and predestination, given the usual exegesis of Rom 8:29, there is nothing I can say that will reach you:

 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
 (Rom 8:29-31 KJV)

The juxtaposition of foreknow and predestination cannot be denied, therefore the church has run the full gamut, from free will to no free will at all. The text does seem to rule out free will, UNLESS you take it naturally as I did above, that the two legs of foreknowledge and predestination do not connect to each other, they connect to the Elect, like a one rung ladder with two legs....both actions happened to those God had already chosen...so foreknowledge is one event, predestination another., to the same people.

ps: You cited a lot of mistaken people...why? I only care about apostolic doctrine, and that is found only in the Bible, not Augustine ect.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 08:30:22 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #402 on: September 12, 2010, 08:39:43 PM »
Of course, but the only reason we can be sure the Bible contains apostolic doctrine is that it was compiled by the successors to the Apostles. ;)
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #403 on: September 12, 2010, 08:43:26 PM »
Quote
He is right, I disagree on all those subjects, I've already mentioned Predestination above

I already answered you on that. You should stop calling yourself primitive orthodox for the beliefs you hold wasn't the belief of Orthodoxy. Call yourself something else!


Quote
...Cessationism is the correct view on the gifts (look it up),

Look what up? It's either miracles ceased after the death of Saint John or they didn't. If you read the fathers and nonfathers then you would of already known that miracles didn't cease after the death of Saint John. Yes, some gifts became rare...very rare, but miracles continued to be found among Christians after Saint John died.

Look it up!

Will you now stop calling yourself primitive orthodox? I see it as an insult!


Quote
as for the Rapture, its clear that occurs AT Christ's second coming,

Well at least we agree on something.

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Scripture is clear, their desire to not follow scripture is also clear. I fail to see your point, I already confessed all have gone astray in some area...

So you are the only correct one? Did you tell your church that? Did you tell your group that? Did you tell them that you are the only correct one to exist in 2,000 years? Did you tell them that all who came before you errored, and that you are the one to lead people into all truth? Did you tell them that?

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I am here asking only one thing, that you remove all the obstacles to Christ reigning in your heart.

If you see the real Presence of the Eucharist as an obstacles, then no thanks! If you see the laying on of hands and Baptismal Regeneration as an obstacle, then no thanks!

Alfred Persson, I doubt if you even know what a true obstacle is. If you think these thinks are obstacles then you are bed fellows with certain ancient gnostic groups.

If you didn't have church father phobia then you would have known this!


 
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Whether you remain Orthodox, or join a pentecostal sect, is not my concern.


It should be your concern! What does the Bible say about Schism? What does the Bible say about the Body of Christ? Is the One Body of Christ Visible?

This should be a concern to you!

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Also, what did the council mean when it said:

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"I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church"



They didn't have your meaning in mind, and so it should be your concern! You call yourself.....falsely....primitive Orthodox, but the stuff that comes out of your keyboard isn't primitive Orthodox! You don't believe like them! You just don't! So call yourself something else!
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #404 on: September 12, 2010, 08:47:19 PM »
Alfred, have you ever read this transcript of an interview with Dr. Ben Witherington III, a professor at Asbury Theological Seminary?  I think you may find it enlightening reading.

The Problem with Evangelical Theologies
Published in Christianity Today, November 2005, Vol. 49, No. 11

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So, what is the problem with evangelical theology?

It has exegetical weaknesses that are not recognized or owned up to by the various evangelical Protestant strains of theology. That's what it boils down to.

You write that in our distinctives, we are least faithful to the Word. What do you mean?

The issue is not really with Christology, the Trinity, the virginal conception, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, or the Bible as the Word of God. The issues I'm concerned about are the distinctives of Calvinist, Arminian, dispensational, or Pentecostal theology. When they try to go some particular direction that's specific to their theological system, that's precisely the point in their argument at which they are exegetically weakest.

The Calvinist system links the ideas of predestination, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints. Each of those has its own exegetical weaknesses, especially perseverance of the saints.

But the same can be said about the distinctives of Arminian theology, especially when you start talking about having an experience of perfection in this lifetime. There are problems matching that up with what the New Testament says about perfection.

The same can be said about Pentecostal theology, with its teaching about a second, definitive work of grace, and about dispensationalism, with its teaching on pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation rapture. I show in my book that all of these evangelical theological systems are exegetically vulnerable precisely in their distinctives.

And later in the same interview:
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In the book, your theological critique is made on the way to discussing a larger concern.

Part of the problem is the temptation to form our theology almost independently of doing our exegesis. We run to the biblical text to shore up or find proof texts for things we already believe.

In addition, we are all children of the Enlightenment, so we've tended to treat the Bible as if it were a history of ideas, where topics like soteriology, justification, the new birth, sanctification, going on to perfection, and glorification were the main themes, and our job was to link one idea to another. But in Scripture, we're not talking about a history of ideas but about spiritual realities in people's lives, about people who have stories and encounters with God. If you read the Bible carefully, on or below the surface of all of these texts is narrative, especially the story of Christ, but also the Old Testament stories of Adam and Moses and Abraham, and the story of Christians as recounted in Acts and elsewhere in the New Testament.

I think part of the problem is that we are still doing theology in an Enlightenment frame of mind, as if it were a string of ideas that we should logically link together, and once we've produced a nice logical circle, then we're home free. The truth is that life is a lot messier than that, and the Bible is more about stories than the history of ideas that are embedded in the stories.

The full interview can be read here:  http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/november/23.66.html?start=1

You may also find it interesting that Dr. Witherington closes this conversation with statements of admiration for the exegeses of Ss. Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzus, and particularly John Chrysostom, three of the giants of the Orthodox theological tradition.

He is right, I disagree on all those subjects, I've already mentioned Predestination above...Cessationism is the correct view on the gifts (look it up), as for the Rapture, its clear that occurs AT Christ's second coming, to clear the earth of believers, so He can punish the earth without harming them:
But don't you think you're engaging in the same methodology that Dr. Witherington criticized?
Not all who wander are lost.