Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 195728 times)

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #270 on: September 08, 2010, 08:05:41 AM »
We shun the man-made traditions of Arius, Marcion, Montanus, the Nicholatians, the Gnostics, Nestorius, Novatian, the Manicheans, Rome, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Scofield, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, and all who would elevate their private interpretation above the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and His Apostles.
Indeed! ;D  Sola scriptura is a man-made tradition.

Only if sola verbum dei is a man made tradition, and it is not:

NKJ  Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. (Act 5:29 NKJ)

As it is apostolic tradition the Word of God came to the church, not through it:

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

Sola verbum dei is today sola scriptura.




I see you've conveniently ignored the posts wherein bogdan and I define how the Orthodox understand Tradition (see Replies #237 & 238 above).  Until you address the content of those posts, I'm sorry there's nothing more we can really debate with you, since you will have shown your unwillingness to address anything other than the straw men of your own creation.  You need to confront what we really believe and not what you want, for the sake of your bluster, to think we believe.

I ignore nothing, I just didn't notice it. There is one of me, and many of you, I scan posts to answer what I can, I don't study them.

Its partly your fault, yes your fault when I miss an argument, because you bury them in reams of irrelevant material.

While that is satisfying to you, it only serves to hide your argument from me.

Lest you accuse me of dictating to you or others, keep doing what you want, don't listen to me at all. BUT if  I miss an argument, buried somewhere in the verbiage of all the posts directed to me, then do as you did just now, cite the precise # I'll check it out.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #271 on: September 08, 2010, 10:16:22 AM »
Your view of scripture contradicts the sufficiency of scripture, according to you, it does not fully equip without your interpretations:

Alfred, no communication of any kind can equip anybody to do anything without interpretation. Every word that every person ever wrote or said to another person was interpreted. The Bible is no exception.

You seem to hold the illogical belief that the meaning of the Bible is self-evident. That is ridiculous. No form of communication is self-evident. None. The Bible is a pile of tree scraps and pigments until it's interpreted. Enter the Ethiopian eunuch, who could not understand the scriptures until it was explained in light of Christ (ie the events of the New Testament).

...what need is there of Councils, when the Nicest is sufficient, as against the Arian heresy...for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things... for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine Scripture.-Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia, Part I. History of the Councils, Athanasius, sect. 5, 6.

Atahansius wouldn't agree with Modern Orthodoxy scripture is insufficient without your traditions, that is heretical. Just as Nicea is sufficient against Arian heresy, so also scripture is sufficient above all...and it announces the religion of Christ quite clearly to those who accept its teachings.

Wow, this is a textbook example prooftexting: quote a few sentences, then expand on it until it bears no resemblance to the quote. You've done that a few times in the last day. And there are far too many ellipses in that small quote for me to take it seriously. You could be making him say the exact opposite of what he meant.

But it matters not. You cannot set St Athanasius against his own Church. Nowhere did he say Tradition is not sufficient. He doesn't even say the word 'tradition'. He said that scripture was sufficient to refute the Arians, which of course, I agree with. Arianism, being one of the earliest heresies, is also easy to refute because it's so blatant.

It  does not follow from my interpreting scripture, that its scripture + interpretation that makes scripture able to equip, because the correct interpretation is determined by the details in scripture, not any human authority.

Then how do you know what it means? Why does everyone who says that interpret things differently? It's an illogical position.

Communications 101: A communication is an encoded thought. Since we are not telepathic creatures, our thoughts are encoded with words. Those words are then received and turned back into thoughts. Voilà, we have interpretation.

From your definition of Scripture as melded into Orthodox tradition I perceive the Orthodox have violated a very important commandment of God, that you not add to God's word human tradition:

Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

You still don't get it, my diagram notwithstanding. I don't know how to make it any more clear. The Bible is a part of Holy Tradition.

By the way, read Galatians sometime.

The Orthodox view of scripture merged as one into tradition isn't new׃

 3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
 4 "For God commanded, saying,`Honor your father and your mother'; and,`He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'
 5 "But you say,`Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"--
 6 `then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 (Mat 15:3-9 NKJ)

There are two kinds of tradition: Holy Tradition (the kind St Paul told us to keep) and traditions of men (the kind Christ rebuked).

Your proposition its impossible Orthodox tradition contradict scripture because it is tradition---is irrational, Like insisting every piece of a picture puzzle fits the other because they are all scrambled up in one bag.

You presume the puzzle pieces don't fit together. But since the source of all elements of Tradition is the Holy Spirit, we're pretty sure they do.

Tradition is not a bunch of random practices we feel emotionally attached to. All elements of Tradition are connected BY NECESSITY. If someone writes a hymn that doesn't fit with the rest of Tradition, it is rejected. If a synod is held and its decision conflicts with Tradition, it is rejected.

That is why Tradition is one coherent whole.

Your claim does not follow as Scripture is a distinct entity, its the Word of God and your tradition is a distinct entity, its the word of men.

#1: Jesus Christ is the Word of God
#2: If tradition is the word of men, then why does the Bible tell us to hold to the traditions of the Apostles?

All "non falsifiable claims" are unsound, your: "the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other" is a "non falsifiable theory", therefore unsound.

Well, it's reality. If it was falsifiable, it wouldn't be of God.

Its analogous to saying the earth and the sun are part of the same universe, therefore the sun can reside in the earth without conflict, and any evidence to the contrary must be wrong because both are part of the same universe."

That's a horrible analogy, actually. Just because two objects are in the same universe does not mean their matter can mix.

Here is a better analogy: a constitutional monarchy such as the United Kingdom. The body of law of the UK is a large collection of many laws, royal proclamations, acts of parliament, judicial decisions, and plain custom (common law). There is no central document that everything is checked against, rather it is all self-regulating (ideally; this is government, not holy tradition). They all are collectively the "tradition" of the UK government, and they are all borne from that tradition which they are part of. For any one part to be in that tradition means it must be constitutional, thus in harmony with all the rest. That is how Holy Tradition relates to all its individual facets.

Scripture is not the word of man like your traditions even though both exist in your church. You are confusing very different things, against the commandment of God not to add to His word, your traditions:

32 "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. (Deu 12:32 NKJ)

Scripture, and the Tradition it flows from, are all a synergy of human and divine, just like our Lord Himself.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 10:20:27 AM by bogdan »

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #272 on: September 08, 2010, 10:20:36 AM »
I've noticed a pattern: since your a priori belief is that Scripture and Tradition are (a) two different things, and (b) in conflict with each other, you invariably believe that every instance of Scripture's stated sufficiency is also a refutation of Tradition. But it's not. Find me a Church Father who refutes Tradition explicitly.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 10:21:07 AM by bogdan »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #273 on: September 08, 2010, 11:04:44 AM »

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:[/b]

"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)


Quote
Alfred--How is it that I agree with all of your citations and not with all of your conclusions? Is this because I am deficient in some way? Is it because you are gifted by the Holt Spirit above all of your interlocutors? Take the last quotation you used, that of Saint Peter who said "We ought to obey God rather than men." I must tell you that I was going to use that very verse to rebut you, in the sense of "we must obey God rather than Alfred." So, what gives? Why are you so resistant to others' viewpoints? Why are you hurling Scripture to us as if you are Zeus hurling lightning bolts? Is it possible that you are possessed by pride, the favorite tool of the Evil One? I just wonder and I pray for you. If I have offended you, please forgive me. Kyrill

Quote
I'm a critical thinker and you aren't.

That is your choice, there are books that teach the science. amazon.com

Your application of Peter's words rests upon equivocation fallacy, it posits God as both God and the human authorities you want to take His place, as long as they aren't me.

Truth is conformity to fact. What conforms to scripture fact is God's truth.

I heed God's truth. When you do, then we will agree. It will be a blessed moment I'll mark on my calendar.


Well now, this assertion of yours is very interesting. On the one hand, it shows an inordinate level of pride in your "critical thinking" capabilities. On the other hand, it shows that your thinking is affected by this inordinate pride, to the point that you summarily decide that a stranger (that would be me) is not a critical thinker. I will merely point out for future reference that I do have third-party evaluations that have deemed me to be a "critical thinker." I will provide you with this evidence but it will have to be through PM. In the meantime, I see lots of bluster on your part but little reflection. I fear you may be spiritually adrift and thus will continue to pray for you.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 11:05:39 AM by Second Chance »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #274 on: September 08, 2010, 11:41:49 AM »
Alfred, I say this in love, but you have once again demonstrated that you don't understand how we view the relationship between Scripture and Tradition. (You also don't seem to quite understand what Tradition even is.)

They are not two separate entities that we judge against each other. Rather, the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other...

Let's focus:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus...or didn't He author scripture only?

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #275 on: September 08, 2010, 11:46:36 AM »

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:[/b]

"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)


Quote
Alfred--How is it that I agree with all of your citations and not with all of your conclusions? Is this because I am deficient in some way? Is it because you are gifted by the Holt Spirit above all of your interlocutors? Take the last quotation you used, that of Saint Peter who said "We ought to obey God rather than men." I must tell you that I was going to use that very verse to rebut you, in the sense of "we must obey God rather than Alfred." So, what gives? Why are you so resistant to others' viewpoints? Why are you hurling Scripture to us as if you are Zeus hurling lightning bolts? Is it possible that you are possessed by pride, the favorite tool of the Evil One? I just wonder and I pray for you. If I have offended you, please forgive me. Kyrill

Quote
I'm a critical thinker and you aren't.

That is your choice, there are books that teach the science. amazon.com

Your application of Peter's words rests upon equivocation fallacy, it posits God as both God and the human authorities you want to take His place, as long as they aren't me.

Truth is conformity to fact. What conforms to scripture fact is God's truth.

I heed God's truth. When you do, then we will agree. It will be a blessed moment I'll mark on my calendar.


Well now, this assertion of yours is very interesting. On the one hand, it shows an inordinate level of pride in your "critical thinking" capabilities. On the other hand, it shows that your thinking is affected by this inordinate pride, to the point that you summarily decide that a stranger (that would be me) is not a critical thinker. I will merely point out for future reference that I do have third-party evaluations that have deemed me to be a "critical thinker." I will provide you with this evidence but it will have to be through PM. In the meantime, I see lots of bluster on your part but little reflection. I fear you may be spiritually adrift and thus will continue to pray for you.

Your apologetic reminds me of Hollywood writers. They have the same essential script, they only change names to make it seem new.

It doesn't matter what I say, it will be evidence of my pride...

You aren't a critical thinker, if you were, you wouldn't have replied as you did.

Nothing wrong with not being a critical thinker, its your choice.

You asked why we arrive at different conclusions, I explained why. No harm, no foul.

No insult intended. It was just an explanation. We approach the same material differently.

I look at the grammar and syntax, to understand what the writer meant.

You inspect the fathers etc, to see if any of them discussed the text, and how they interpreted it.

Our methodology is fundamentally different, therefore we have different answers.



Critical thinking, is not something we are born with.

It is a science whose disciplines must be learned by study...and as our public schools don't teach it, you didn't learn it in school in America...you will have to learn this on your own.

I did, and am very glad I took the time, it enables one to see WHY something is  incorrect, why the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, not just "feel" it might be wrong but not know why.

In fact I've only mastered the basics of informal logic, so it wouldn't take you long to surpass me if you wanted to.

peace
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 11:56:53 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #276 on: September 08, 2010, 11:57:59 AM »
Alfred, I say this in love, but you have once again demonstrated that you don't understand how we view the relationship between Scripture and Tradition. (You also don't seem to quite understand what Tradition even is.)

They are not two separate entities that we judge against each other. Rather, the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other...

Let's focus:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus...or didn't He author scripture only?



The Church is the Body of Christ and is guided by the Holy Spirit. Everything the Church has deemed to be Holy Tradition is under the inspiration of God, by necessity. So no, he did not author scripture only. That's why we keep saying, the Word is a MAN, not a BOOK.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #277 on: September 08, 2010, 11:59:56 AM »
Alfred, I say this in love, but you have once again demonstrated that you don't understand how we view the relationship between Scripture and Tradition. (You also don't seem to quite understand what Tradition even is.)

They are not two separate entities that we judge against each other. Rather, the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other...

Let's focus:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus...or didn't He author scripture only?


What part of "Tradition = the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church" don't you understand?  Did not Jesus promise to send us the Holy Spirit, who would guide us into all truth?  (John 16:12-15)  Note that He didn't say, "I will give you the Bible to guide you into all truth," but that He said, "I will send you the Holy Spirit..."  Did not the Holy Spirit descend upon the disciples at the feast of Pentecost ten days after Jesus ascended to the heavens?  And did not Jesus promise that the Holy Spirit would abide with us forever?  How is it, then, that you deny the work of the Holy Spirit within the Church by preaching your doctrine of sola scriptura?
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #278 on: September 08, 2010, 12:04:56 PM »
Alfred, I say this in love, but you have once again demonstrated that you don't understand how we view the relationship between Scripture and Tradition. (You also don't seem to quite understand what Tradition even is.)

They are not two separate entities that we judge against each other. Rather, the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other...

Let's focus:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus...or didn't He author scripture only?



The Church is the Body of Christ and is guided by the Holy Spirit. Everything the Church has deemed to be Holy Tradition is under the inspiration of God, by necessity. So no, he did not author scripture only. That's why we keep saying, the Word is a MAN, not a BOOK.

You are inconsistent, scripture has been canonized, your "everything the church has deemed to be Holy Tradition" has not been.

So your insistence we follow Church councils, when no ecumenical council has given us an infallible table of contents listing every part of your "Holy Tradition", is a total self contradiction.

IN fact, your "Holy Tradition" seems quite nebulous to me, something you decide on as you introduce novelties the apostles never dreamed of...

I ask you again, did God Himself write your Tradition or not...if so, why hasn't that material been submitted to an ecumenical council for canonization?

Why isn't a text of  your tradition, duly systematized, authorized, so we know precisely what it says?

Frankly,  its all seems like a rabbit trick, you pull "Holy Tradition" out of a hat whenever it suits you, and you don't want others to see it, lest we realize how uninspired it all really is.

If your "Holy Tradition" were authored by God Himself, and you haven't published a text of it for all to read, how will you not end up like this fellow:

 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 (Mat 25:24-30 KJV)

« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 12:08:41 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #279 on: September 08, 2010, 12:06:18 PM »
You aren't a critical thinker, if you were, you wouldn't have replied as you did.
Alfred, when you shift the focus of your argument to such statements as "you aren't a critical thinker", you deviate from addressing the logical substance of one's reasoning and focus instead on criticizing the person behind the reasoning.  This is by definition an ad hominem (to the person) argument, which is generally not tolerated here.  I would advise you, therefore, to not pursue this "you aren't a critical thinker" tactic any farther, for it may backfire against you.
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #280 on: September 08, 2010, 12:08:50 PM »

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:[/b]

"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)


Quote
Alfred--How is it that I agree with all of your citations and not with all of your conclusions? Is this because I am deficient in some way? Is it because you are gifted by the Holt Spirit above all of your interlocutors? Take the last quotation you used, that of Saint Peter who said "We ought to obey God rather than men." I must tell you that I was going to use that very verse to rebut you, in the sense of "we must obey God rather than Alfred." So, what gives? Why are you so resistant to others' viewpoints? Why are you hurling Scripture to us as if you are Zeus hurling lightning bolts? Is it possible that you are possessed by pride, the favorite tool of the Evil One? I just wonder and I pray for you. If I have offended you, please forgive me. Kyrill

Quote
I'm a critical thinker and you aren't.

That is your choice, there are books that teach the science. amazon.com

Your application of Peter's words rests upon equivocation fallacy, it posits God as both God and the human authorities you want to take His place, as long as they aren't me.

Truth is conformity to fact. What conforms to scripture fact is God's truth.

I heed God's truth. When you do, then we will agree. It will be a blessed moment I'll mark on my calendar.


Well now, this assertion of yours is very interesting. On the one hand, it shows an inordinate level of pride in your "critical thinking" capabilities. On the other hand, it shows that your thinking is affected by this inordinate pride, to the point that you summarily decide that a stranger (that would be me) is not a critical thinker. I will merely point out for future reference that I do have third-party evaluations that have deemed me to be a "critical thinker." I will provide you with this evidence but it will have to be through PM. In the meantime, I see lots of bluster on your part but little reflection. I fear you may be spiritually adrift and thus will continue to pray for you.

Your apologetic reminds me of Hollywood writers. They have the same essential script, they only change names to make it seem new.

It doesn't matter what I say, it will be evidence of my pride...

You aren't a critical thinker, if you were, you wouldn't have replied as you did.

Nothing wrong with not being a critical thinker, its your choice.

You asked why we arrive at different conclusions, I explained why. No harm, no foul.

No insult intended. It was just an explanation. We approach the same material differently.

I look at the grammar and syntax, to understand what the writer meant.

You inspect the fathers etc, to see if any of them discussed the text, and how they interpreted it.

Our methodology is fundamentally different, therefore we have different answers.



Critical thinking, is not something we are born with.

It is a science whose disciplines must be learned by study...and as our public schools don't teach it, you didn't learn it in school in America...you will have to learn this on your own.

I did, and am very glad I took the time, it enables one to see WHY something is  incorrect, why the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, not just "feel" it might be wrong but not know why.

In fact I've only mastered the basics of informal logic, so it wouldn't take you long to surpass me if you wanted to.

peace


That is the beauty of the Church.

I can't speak for Second Chance, but I did a ton of critical thinking, and it led me to Orthodoxy. I thank God that I am not a slave to having to go it alone anymore. God gave us the Fathers so we don't have to chase the wind with all this rubbish and nonsense.

To oversimplify it, we can just live our lives the way God wants us to, rather than spending all our time in books figuring out how God wants us to live. We can just pray, rather than spending all our time figuring out how God wants us to pray. But that requires a level of humility which says that I cannot possibly figure all this out, but there were holy men who lived 2000, 1900, 1800, 1700, 1600 years ago who did, and by their good fruit they are known.

When I was a protestant, I was a lot like you, Alfred. I was a slave to my exegesis and Greek language books and everything else. Now I am free to simply live it out and try to grow in holiness, instead of wasting my life reinventing the wheel. It's liberating.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #281 on: September 08, 2010, 12:13:04 PM »
You aren't a critical thinker, if you were, you wouldn't have replied as you did.
Alfred, when you shift the focus of your argument to such statements as "you aren't a critical thinker", you deviate from addressing the logical substance of one's reasoning and focus instead on criticizing the person behind the reasoning.  This is by definition an ad hominem (to the person) argument, which is generally not tolerated here.  I would advise you, therefore, to not pursue this "you aren't a critical thinker" tactic any farther, for it may backfire against you.

Just answering his question...did you prefer I lie.

Your methodology for scripture interpretation differs from mine. You seek consensus, you seek agreement with your church.

I seek the meaning the author meant.

It does result in different interpretations.


Only the latter method is "critical." It evaluates different possible understandings, according to consistency with the grammar and syntax.

Looking to see what is the popular interpretation in a given body of tradition, is not critical.




For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #282 on: September 08, 2010, 12:15:00 PM »
IN fact, your "Holy Tradition" seems quite nebulous to me,
As well it should, lest we ever think we have God figured out.  You see, Alfred, this is a big part of the problem.  You want things detailed with precise clarity, but once you do that, you deprive Christianity of the mystery that keeps us humble.  Put God in such a little box, and you leave Him no freedom to be God.

something you decide on as you introduce novelties the apostles never dreamed of...
And how would you know what the Apostles dreamed of?  Did they commit to writing EVERYTHING they considered important in their teachings.  I know you will argue this, but the evidence just does not support such a view of Apostolic doctrine.

I ask you again, did God Himself write your Tradition or not...
Yes, He did.

if so, why hasn't that material been submitted to an ecumenical council for canonization?
Does God answer to you?

Why isn't a text of  your tradition, duly systematized, authorized, so we know precisely what it says?
Why is such precision even beneficial?

Frankly,  its all seems like a rabbit trick, you pull "Holy Tradition" out of a hat whenever it suits you, and you don't want others to see it, lest we realize how uninspired it all really is.
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #283 on: September 08, 2010, 12:28:12 PM »
Alfred, I say this in love, but you have once again demonstrated that you don't understand how we view the relationship between Scripture and Tradition. (You also don't seem to quite understand what Tradition even is.)

They are not two separate entities that we judge against each other. Rather, the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other...

Let's focus:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus...or didn't He author scripture only?



The Church is the Body of Christ and is guided by the Holy Spirit. Everything the Church has deemed to be Holy Tradition is under the inspiration of God, by necessity. So no, he did not author scripture only. That's why we keep saying, the Word is a MAN, not a BOOK.

You are inconsistent, scripture has been canonized, your "everything the church has deemed to be Holy Tradition" has not been.

The canonization of the Scriptures is itself a part of Holy Tradition. :D

So your insistence we follow Church councils, when no ecumenical council has given us an infallible table of contents listing every part of your "Holy Tradition", is a total self contradiction.

You follow Church councils every time you open your New Testament (Not so much the Old Testament; for that one you follow an anti-Christian Jewish council).

What is special about an Ecumenical Council that makes it binding for you, but not anything else?

IN fact, your "Holy Tradition" seems quite nebulous to me, something you decide on as you introduce novelties the apostles never dreamed of...

You're getting there. It may be nebulous in its boundaries, but it is absolutely firm in its consistency. If any novelties were introduced, it would be resoundingly rejected, because it would be inconsistent. Anything foreign to Holy Tradition would stick out like a sore thumb. That includes inconsistency with the Apostles (their words both written and oral, the traditions handed down which St Paul references)

I ask you again, did God Himself write your Tradition or not...if so, why hasn't that material been submitted to an ecumenical council for canonization?

Except for the stone tablets and whatever Christ wrote on the ground, I'm not aware that God Himself wrote anything. So maybe we should just live by the 10 Commandments and throw out everything else.

It doesn't need to be canonized. It is in full force because everyone abides by it. Tradition is more akin to Common Law, and less akin to a Constitution.

Why isn't a text of  your tradition, duly systematized, authorized, so we know precisely what it says?

Because we aren't western rationalists who require that sort of thing. It can't be systematized because every person has unique needs. Orthodoxy is not a widget factory where everyone comes out looking exactly the same in every way, so an ironclad system is impossible. You may live and die by rules, but our bishops have the authority to bind and loose as each situation requires.

It is authorized by virtue of the Church using it.

Frankly,  its all seems like a rabbit trick, you pull "Holy Tradition" out of a hat whenever it suits you, and you don't want others to see it, lest we realize how uninspired it all really is.

No. I've told you countless times. There is no book called "The Complete Holy Tradition". Holy Tradition is the LIFE OF THE CHURCH. It is not a quantifiable object, or some mysterious parchment kept in Constantinople. Holy Tradition is no secret. If you want to see Holy Tradition, go to a Divine Liturgy. Read the life of a Saint. Listen to an Akathist. Look at an icon. Touch a relic.

If it's hidden, it's because you don't open your eyes. It's right in front of you.

If your "Holy Tradition" were authored by God Himself, and you haven't published a text of it for all to read, how will you not end up like this fellow:

Because we have faith.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 12:32:42 PM by bogdan »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #284 on: September 08, 2010, 12:28:59 PM »
You aren't a critical thinker, if you were, you wouldn't have replied as you did.
Alfred, when you shift the focus of your argument to such statements as "you aren't a critical thinker", you deviate from addressing the logical substance of one's reasoning and focus instead on criticizing the person behind the reasoning.  This is by definition an ad hominem (to the person) argument, which is generally not tolerated here.  I would advise you, therefore, to not pursue this "you aren't a critical thinker" tactic any farther, for it may backfire against you.

Just answering his question...did you prefer I lie.
No.  I prefer that you address his reasoning and not attack his personal character.  You could say honestly that his argument shows no evidence of critical thought, and that would be acceptable in a debate, for then you would be criticizing his reasoning and not his person.

Your methodology for scripture interpretation differs from mine. You seek consensus, you seek agreement with your church.

I seek the meaning the author meant.
As do we.  We just don't rely solely on what the text of the Bible says.  When you have the Author of a text in your midst, would you not ask Him to share with you the correct interpretation of His words when you find the text unclear?

It does result in different interpretations.
Yes, it does.

Only the latter method is "critical." It evaluates different possible understandings, according to consistency with the grammar and syntax.
But, whereas such textual analysis is very beneficial in helping us come to a proper understanding of the intent of the Author, it does have its limitations and cannot be our sole approach.

Looking to see what is the popular interpretation in a given body of tradition, is not critical.
Then you do not understand Tradition if you think of it as nothing more than popular interpretations of a text.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 12:32:05 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #285 on: September 08, 2010, 12:29:24 PM »

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:[/b]

"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)


Quote
Alfred--How is it that I agree with all of your citations and not with all of your conclusions? Is this because I am deficient in some way? Is it because you are gifted by the Holt Spirit above all of your interlocutors? Take the last quotation you used, that of Saint Peter who said "We ought to obey God rather than men." I must tell you that I was going to use that very verse to rebut you, in the sense of "we must obey God rather than Alfred." So, what gives? Why are you so resistant to others' viewpoints? Why are you hurling Scripture to us as if you are Zeus hurling lightning bolts? Is it possible that you are possessed by pride, the favorite tool of the Evil One? I just wonder and I pray for you. If I have offended you, please forgive me. Kyrill

Quote
I'm a critical thinker and you aren't.

That is your choice, there are books that teach the science. amazon.com

Your application of Peter's words rests upon equivocation fallacy, it posits God as both God and the human authorities you want to take His place, as long as they aren't me.

Truth is conformity to fact. What conforms to scripture fact is God's truth.

I heed God's truth. When you do, then we will agree. It will be a blessed moment I'll mark on my calendar.


Well now, this assertion of yours is very interesting. On the one hand, it shows an inordinate level of pride in your "critical thinking" capabilities. On the other hand, it shows that your thinking is affected by this inordinate pride, to the point that you summarily decide that a stranger (that would be me) is not a critical thinker. I will merely point out for future reference that I do have third-party evaluations that have deemed me to be a "critical thinker." I will provide you with this evidence but it will have to be through PM. In the meantime, I see lots of bluster on your part but little reflection. I fear you may be spiritually adrift and thus will continue to pray for you.

Your apologetic reminds me of Hollywood writers. They have the same essential script, they only change names to make it seem new.

It doesn't matter what I say, it will be evidence of my pride...

You aren't a critical thinker, if you were, you wouldn't have replied as you did.

Nothing wrong with not being a critical thinker, its your choice.

You asked why we arrive at different conclusions, I explained why. No harm, no foul.

No insult intended. It was just an explanation. We approach the same material differently.

I look at the grammar and syntax, to understand what the writer meant.

You inspect the fathers etc, to see if any of them discussed the text, and how they interpreted it.

Our methodology is fundamentally different, therefore we have different answers.



Critical thinking, is not something we are born with.

It is a science whose disciplines must be learned by study...and as our public schools don't teach it, you didn't learn it in school in America...you will have to learn this on your own.

I did, and am very glad I took the time, it enables one to see WHY something is  incorrect, why the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, not just "feel" it might be wrong but not know why.

In fact I've only mastered the basics of informal logic, so it wouldn't take you long to surpass me if you wanted to.

peace


That is the beauty of the Church.

I can't speak for Second Chance, but I did a ton of critical thinking, and it led me to Orthodoxy. I thank God that I am not a slave to having to go it alone anymore. God gave us the Fathers so we don't have to chase the wind with all this rubbish and nonsense.

To oversimplify it, we can just live our lives the way God wants us to, rather than spending all our time in books figuring out how God wants us to live. We can just pray, rather than spending all our time figuring out how God wants us to pray. But that requires a level of humility which says that I cannot possibly figure all this out, but there were holy men who lived 2000, 1900, 1800, 1700, 1600 years ago who did, and by their good fruit they are known.

When I was a protestant, I was a lot like you, Alfred. I was a slave to my exegesis and Greek language books and everything else. Now I am free to simply live it out and try to grow in holiness, instead of wasting my life reinventing the wheel. It's liberating.

Critical in "critical thinking" doesn't mean "critic, or criticizing."

Its means analysis that is "Characterized by careful, exact evaluation and judgment."

For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses would argue:

"The word Trinity is not in the Bible.
The concept of three gods being one God is confusing.
As God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33),
The doctrine of the Trinity is of the Devil."

A critical analysis of this would begin by inspecting each premise.
1)Is the principle technical terms must be found in scripture to be true, correct? Evidently not as the Jehovah's Witnesses model their entire organization and belief upon "Theocracy", they even call their publicists "theocratic ministers." The word theocracy does not appear in the Bible. Therefore JWs are inconsistent, not believing their own premise.

2)Straw man fallacy, Christians do not believe in Three entities that are one entity, we believe in Three Persons subsisting in the One infinite ocean of essence that is God. So its not inconsistent that 3 Persons be subsisting in One Divine Substance, just as its possible Three persons be in one house. (Don't press the analogy, God in Three Persons is infinite, not finite like three persons in a house).

Theocracy on the other hand, is very confusing. Saudia Arabia has their version, Iran theirs, and Jehovah's Witnesses something different than either. That is confusing. So if confusion is proof something is of the Devil, then JW Theocracy doctrine is of the Devil, and as JWs will deny that, then they are inconsistent, not believing their own premise.

So the JW argument fails a simple critical analysis, the refutation of JW argument is within it, the inconsistency of JWs, their not following their own logic when applied to other things, proves even they consider the logic unsound.


As for your last statement, its unsound. Departing from the grammar and syntax of God's word may be "liberating" to some, but after this rebellion, there is the judgment.

As for me, I find the words of God liberating, they free me from sin via the washing of the Word.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 12:38:09 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #286 on: September 08, 2010, 12:34:13 PM »
That is the beauty of the Church.

I can't speak for Second Chance, but I did a ton of critical thinking, and it led me to Orthodoxy. I thank God that I am not a slave to having to go it alone anymore. God gave us the Fathers so we don't have to chase the wind with all this rubbish and nonsense.

To oversimplify it, we can just live our lives the way God wants us to, rather than spending all our time in books figuring out how God wants us to live. We can just pray, rather than spending all our time figuring out how God wants us to pray. But that requires a level of humility which says that I cannot possibly figure all this out, but there were holy men who lived 2000, 1900, 1800, 1700, 1600 years ago who did, and by their good fruit they are known.

When I was a protestant, I was a lot like you, Alfred. I was a slave to my exegesis and Greek language books and everything else. Now I am free to simply live it out and try to grow in holiness, instead of wasting my life reinventing the wheel. It's liberating.

Critical in "critical thinking" doesn't mean "critic, or criticizing."

Its means analysis that is "Characterized by careful, exact evaluation and judgment."

I know. That is the sense in which I used it in my above-quoted post.

The Fathers have already done a careful, exact evaluation and judgment of the scriptures. It blows me away that people waste their time reinventing the wheel instead of taking what has been given them and living the life by it.

In Orthodoxy we stand on the shoulders of the giants who went before. We don't waste our lives trying to grow into giants ourselves, because we will never be able to. We humbly reach whatever height we do by the efforts of our fellow Christians, not by our own efforts.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 12:37:34 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #287 on: September 08, 2010, 12:42:24 PM »
That is the beauty of the Church.

I can't speak for Second Chance, but I did a ton of critical thinking, and it led me to Orthodoxy. I thank God that I am not a slave to having to go it alone anymore. God gave us the Fathers so we don't have to chase the wind with all this rubbish and nonsense.

To oversimplify it, we can just live our lives the way God wants us to, rather than spending all our time in books figuring out how God wants us to live. We can just pray, rather than spending all our time figuring out how God wants us to pray. But that requires a level of humility which says that I cannot possibly figure all this out, but there were holy men who lived 2000, 1900, 1800, 1700, 1600 years ago who did, and by their good fruit they are known.

When I was a protestant, I was a lot like you, Alfred. I was a slave to my exegesis and Greek language books and everything else. Now I am free to simply live it out and try to grow in holiness, instead of wasting my life reinventing the wheel. It's liberating.

Critical in "critical thinking" doesn't mean "critic, or criticizing."

Its means analysis that is "Characterized by careful, exact evaluation and judgment."

I know. That is the sense in which I used it in my above-quoted post.

The Fathers have already done a careful, exact evaluation and judgment of the scriptures. It blows me away that people waste their time reinventing the wheel instead of taking what has been given them and living the life by it.

In Orthodoxy we stand on the shoulders of the giants who went before. We don't waste our lives trying to grow into giants ourselves, because we will never be able to. We humbly reach whatever height we do by the efforts of our fellow Christians, not by our own efforts.

Its not critical when you seek the popular understanding in a given body of tradition.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 12:43:40 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #288 on: September 08, 2010, 12:46:11 PM »
Alfred, I say this in love, but you have once again demonstrated that you don't understand how we view the relationship between Scripture and Tradition. (You also don't seem to quite understand what Tradition even is.)

They are not two separate entities that we judge against each other. Rather, the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other...

Let's focus:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus...or didn't He author scripture only?



The Church is the Body of Christ and is guided by the Holy Spirit. Everything the Church has deemed to be Holy Tradition is under the inspiration of God, by necessity. So no, he did not author scripture only. That's why we keep saying, the Word is a MAN, not a BOOK.

You are inconsistent, scripture has been canonized, your "everything the church has deemed to be Holy Tradition" has not been.

The canonization of the Scriptures is itself a part of Holy Tradition. :D

So your insistence we follow Church councils, when no ecumenical council has given us an infallible table of contents listing every part of your "Holy Tradition", is a total self contradiction.

You follow Church councils every time you open your New Testament (Not so much the Old Testament; for that one you follow an anti-Christian Jewish council).

What is special about an Ecumenical Council that makes it binding for you, but not anything else?

IN fact, your "Holy Tradition" seems quite nebulous to me, something you decide on as you introduce novelties the apostles never dreamed of...

You're getting there. It may be nebulous in its boundaries, but it is absolutely firm in its consistency. If any novelties were introduced, it would be resoundingly rejected, because it would be inconsistent. Anything foreign to Holy Tradition would stick out like a sore thumb. That includes inconsistency with the Apostles (their words both written and oral, the traditions handed down which St Paul references)

I ask you again, did God Himself write your Tradition or not...if so, why hasn't that material been submitted to an ecumenical council for canonization?

Except for the stone tablets and whatever Christ wrote on the ground, I'm not aware that God Himself wrote anything. So maybe we should just live by the 10 Commandments and throw out everything else.

It doesn't need to be canonized. It is in full force because everyone abides by it. Tradition is more akin to Common Law, and less akin to a Constitution.

Why isn't a text of  your tradition, duly systematized, authorized, so we know precisely what it says?

Because we aren't western rationalists who require that sort of thing. It can't be systematized because every person has unique needs. Orthodoxy is not a widget factory where everyone comes out looking exactly the same in every way, so an ironclad system is impossible. You may live and die by rules, but our bishops have the authority to bind and loose as each situation requires.

It is authorized by virtue of the Church using it.

Frankly,  its all seems like a rabbit trick, you pull "Holy Tradition" out of a hat whenever it suits you, and you don't want others to see it, lest we realize how uninspired it all really is.

No. I've told you countless times. There is no book called "The Complete Holy Tradition". Holy Tradition is the LIFE OF THE CHURCH. It is not a quantifiable object, or some mysterious parchment kept in Constantinople. Holy Tradition is no secret. If you want to see Holy Tradition, go to a Divine Liturgy. Read the life of a Saint. Listen to an Akathist. Look at an icon. Touch a relic.

If it's hidden, it's because you don't open your eyes. It's right in front of you.

If your "Holy Tradition" were authored by God Himself, and you haven't published a text of it for all to read, how will you not end up like this fellow:

Because we have faith.



You evaded my question, this requires a yes or no answer:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus?

Are they "God-breathed" just like scripture?



If they are "God-breathed," explain why the text wasn't submitted to an Ecumenical Council for canonization:


« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 12:47:22 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #289 on: September 08, 2010, 12:49:51 PM »
That is the beauty of the Church.

I can't speak for Second Chance, but I did a ton of critical thinking, and it led me to Orthodoxy. I thank God that I am not a slave to having to go it alone anymore. God gave us the Fathers so we don't have to chase the wind with all this rubbish and nonsense.

To oversimplify it, we can just live our lives the way God wants us to, rather than spending all our time in books figuring out how God wants us to live. We can just pray, rather than spending all our time figuring out how God wants us to pray. But that requires a level of humility which says that I cannot possibly figure all this out, but there were holy men who lived 2000, 1900, 1800, 1700, 1600 years ago who did, and by their good fruit they are known.

When I was a protestant, I was a lot like you, Alfred. I was a slave to my exegesis and Greek language books and everything else. Now I am free to simply live it out and try to grow in holiness, instead of wasting my life reinventing the wheel. It's liberating.

Critical in "critical thinking" doesn't mean "critic, or criticizing."

Its means analysis that is "Characterized by careful, exact evaluation and judgment."

I know. That is the sense in which I used it in my above-quoted post.

The Fathers have already done a careful, exact evaluation and judgment of the scriptures. It blows me away that people waste their time reinventing the wheel instead of taking what has been given them and living the life by it.

In Orthodoxy we stand on the shoulders of the giants who went before. We don't waste our lives trying to grow into giants ourselves, because we will never be able to. We humbly reach whatever height we do by the efforts of our fellow Christians, not by our own efforts.

Its not critical when you seek the popular understanding in a given body of tradition.

What did I say in my above post? I thanked God that I am no longer a slave to critical thinking. No, I do not critically evaluate the Church traditions now that I have accepted them as 100% reliable and inspired.

I employed critical thinking until the time when I accepted Holy Tradition. After that, I defer to the critical thinking of the Fathers, who are far more wise and abler to interpret the scriptures than any of us.

And it's hardly about the popular understanding. The Truth has often been unpopular. Another reason why we don't have councils and just vote on everything.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 12:58:34 PM by bogdan »

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #290 on: September 08, 2010, 12:54:47 PM »
Alfred, I say this in love, but you have once again demonstrated that you don't understand how we view the relationship between Scripture and Tradition. (You also don't seem to quite understand what Tradition even is.)

They are not two separate entities that we judge against each other. Rather, the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other...

Let's focus:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus...or didn't He author scripture only?



The Church is the Body of Christ and is guided by the Holy Spirit. Everything the Church has deemed to be Holy Tradition is under the inspiration of God, by necessity. So no, he did not author scripture only. That's why we keep saying, the Word is a MAN, not a BOOK.

You are inconsistent, scripture has been canonized, your "everything the church has deemed to be Holy Tradition" has not been.

The canonization of the Scriptures is itself a part of Holy Tradition. :D

So your insistence we follow Church councils, when no ecumenical council has given us an infallible table of contents listing every part of your "Holy Tradition", is a total self contradiction.

You follow Church councils every time you open your New Testament (Not so much the Old Testament; for that one you follow an anti-Christian Jewish council).

What is special about an Ecumenical Council that makes it binding for you, but not anything else?

IN fact, your "Holy Tradition" seems quite nebulous to me, something you decide on as you introduce novelties the apostles never dreamed of...

You're getting there. It may be nebulous in its boundaries, but it is absolutely firm in its consistency. If any novelties were introduced, it would be resoundingly rejected, because it would be inconsistent. Anything foreign to Holy Tradition would stick out like a sore thumb. That includes inconsistency with the Apostles (their words both written and oral, the traditions handed down which St Paul references)

I ask you again, did God Himself write your Tradition or not...if so, why hasn't that material been submitted to an ecumenical council for canonization?

Except for the stone tablets and whatever Christ wrote on the ground, I'm not aware that God Himself wrote anything. So maybe we should just live by the 10 Commandments and throw out everything else.

It doesn't need to be canonized. It is in full force because everyone abides by it. Tradition is more akin to Common Law, and less akin to a Constitution.

Why isn't a text of  your tradition, duly systematized, authorized, so we know precisely what it says?

Because we aren't western rationalists who require that sort of thing. It can't be systematized because every person has unique needs. Orthodoxy is not a widget factory where everyone comes out looking exactly the same in every way, so an ironclad system is impossible. You may live and die by rules, but our bishops have the authority to bind and loose as each situation requires.

It is authorized by virtue of the Church using it.

Frankly,  its all seems like a rabbit trick, you pull "Holy Tradition" out of a hat whenever it suits you, and you don't want others to see it, lest we realize how uninspired it all really is.

No. I've told you countless times. There is no book called "The Complete Holy Tradition". Holy Tradition is the LIFE OF THE CHURCH. It is not a quantifiable object, or some mysterious parchment kept in Constantinople. Holy Tradition is no secret. If you want to see Holy Tradition, go to a Divine Liturgy. Read the life of a Saint. Listen to an Akathist. Look at an icon. Touch a relic.

If it's hidden, it's because you don't open your eyes. It's right in front of you.

If your "Holy Tradition" were authored by God Himself, and you haven't published a text of it for all to read, how will you not end up like this fellow:

Because we have faith.



You evaded my question, this requires a yes or no answer:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus?

Are they "God-breathed" just like scripture?



If they are "God-breathed," explain why the text wasn't submitted to an Ecumenical Council for canonization:




All of Tradition is God-breathed, including Scripture.

As I said, it was not submitted to an ecumenical council because it doesn't need to be. Ecumenical Councils are not a ratification body that we run all our teachings past. They are held to respond to major heresies. There haven't been any along these lines, so why would they ever do such a thing?

And my question to you, again: Even if an ecumenical council did "canonize" Holy Tradition, why would you accept it anyway? You don't accept Icons, and an Ecumenical Council "canonized" those. I expect you wouldn't accept it, even if there was an Ecumenical Council, because everything ultimately is run through the filter of Alfred Persson's Opinion.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 01:09:53 PM by bogdan »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #291 on: September 08, 2010, 01:13:24 PM »
Quote from: Alfred Persson
Orthodoxy is wrong, the apostle Paul is right.


 :o


So these people and these people and these people are just making stuff up, or something?  ???
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Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #292 on: September 08, 2010, 01:42:29 PM »
Quote from: Alfred Persson
Orthodoxy is wrong, the apostle Paul is right.


 :o


So these people and these people and these people are just making stuff up, or something?  ???
I saw Alfred's comment on this as well. I don't think he sees the contradiction in his statement that you see. That's why he is having such a hard time understanding everyone here.
Alfred, according to the beliefs of the Eastern Orthodox Christians in this room, Paul was Orthodox.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #293 on: September 08, 2010, 02:10:45 PM »
Your view of scripture contradicts the sufficiency of scripture, according to you, it does not fully equip without your interpretations:
That is how scripture views itself.  
2 Peter 1:19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2: 1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.  3:1  1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 15—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
2: 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the Traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians.

So says God the Word: Luke 8:10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that ‘ Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.’

If Orhtodoxy contradicts the sufficiency of scripture, take it up with Him, its Author.

...what need is there of Councils, when the Nicest is sufficient, as against the Arian heresy...for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things... for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine Scripture.-Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia, Part I. History of the Councils, Athanasius, sect. 5, 6.

Atahansius wouldn't agree with Modern Orthodoxy scripture is insufficient without your traditions, that is heretical. Just as Nicea is sufficient against Arian heresy, so also scripture is sufficient above all...and it announces the religion of Christ quite clearly to those who accept its teachings.

Is the Nicene Creed in your bible? Because it is not in our (Pope St. Athanasius and the rest of the Orthodox) Bible, although it is in our (Pope St. Athanasius and the rest of the Orthodox) Tradition.

It  does not follow from my interpreting scripture, that its scripture + interpretation that makes scripture able to equip, because the correct interpretation is determined by the details in scripture, not any human authority.

So you and those Protestant "systematic theologians" you prattle about are not human?

The authority of the episcopacy of the Orthodox is of divine origin: it speaks with the authority of God's voice.  Who gave you authority to speak for Him? "no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God" Heb. 5:4. Christ I know, and Paul and the Apostles I know, and their successors the Orthodox bishops I know, but who are you?

Its no argument against Scripture's ability to make wise unto salvation----that free will choice to accept its teaching is required for that to occur; THAT is true of food also, it requires free will choice to eat for it to sustain life, BUT it would be irrational to argue food is not nourishing, sufficient to sustain life,  because some refuse to eat it and die.

So you raid the Orthodox Church's refrigerator, because that is where the wholesome food is kept, but not knowing how to prepare it, you let it get rancid and putrid and you get the botulism of heresy. Bon appetit!

From your definition of Scripture as melded into Orthodox tradition

No, Scripture arose from Orthodox Tradition.

I perceive the Orthodox have violated a very important commandment of God, that you not add to God's word human tradition:

Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

5 “But you shall seek the place where the LORD your God chooses, out of all your tribes, to put His name for His dwelling place; and there you shall go." Deu 12:5."

Where is the command for the synagogues in Nazareth, around Galilee and Judea and in Thessalonika and the rest of the Diaspora?

The Orthodox view of scripture merged as one into tradition isn't new׃

That's the idea of holding fast to the Traditions the Apostles taught. Stick to the old, tried and true, and not the new innovations, like sola scriptura.

Quote
3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
 4 "For God commanded, saying,`Honor your father and your mother'; and,`He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'
 5 "But you say,`Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"--
 6 `then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 (Mat 15:3-9 NKJ)

Luke 4:14 Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region. 15 And He taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.   16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

Here we see Christ violating a very important commandment of God, that you not add to God's word human tradition, the synagogue service, which has no warrent in your Old Testament.

Here we see St. Paul imitating Christ's violation of a very important commandment of God, that you not add to God's word human tradition, like the synagogue service:

Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.”

We continue to imitate St. Paul and the Apostles in Christ's violation of a very important commandment of God, that you not add to God's word human tradition, like the synagogue service, which the Church incorporated as the Liturgy of the Word/Cathecumens in the Divine Liturgy, during which the person authorized by apostolic succession teaches and reasons from the Scriptures, preaching the Christ whose violation of the commandment of God in the synagogue of Nazareth we just celebrated on September 1 (Ecclesiatical New Year, for which Luke 4 is the Gospel reading).

Your proposition its impossible Orthodox tradition contradict scripture because it is tradition---is irrational, Like insisting every piece of a picture puzzle fits the other because they are all scrambled up in one bag.

No, the Protestant pieces like sola scriptura will not fit with the pieces the Apostles put in the Orthodox Church's bag. That's why they have the bishops putting the puzzle together, keeping those that fit the original picture

and throw away the pieces that do not fit that an enemy tried to sneek into the bag. Like sola scriptura.

Your claim does not follow as Scripture is a distinct entity, its the Word of God and your tradition is a distinct entity, its the word of men.
It doesn't make your distinction: 2: 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the Traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians.

All "non falsifiable claims" are unsound, your: "the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other" is a "non falsifiable theory", therefore unsound.

Sure, your tradition of sola scriptura contradicts Scripture. It is an example of a false claim based on falsified tradition.  Btw, where do you find "All non-falsifible claims are unsound" in Scripture?  You claim sufficiency. Where is it? Or do you have to equip it with your interpretation of "non-falsifiable claims"?

Its analogous to saying the earth and the sun are part of the same universe, therefore the sun can reside in the earth without conflict, and any evidence to the contrary must be wrong because both are part of the same universe."

I wasn't aware that the sun came out of the earth.  But to use your faulty analogy, according to the laws of gravity, both the sun and earth attract each other. Otherwise they do not exist in the same universe. It is, for instance, how mutual actraction yields the calculation of the mass of the sun.

That is a refusal to see reality, to acknowledge the Sun is not the earth even though both exist in the same universe.

The sun does not exist apart from its rays. Again, your analogy is what is faulty, yet you resue to see that reality.

Scripture is not the word of man like your traditions even though both exist in your church. You are confusing very different things,

It says "whether by word or our epistle"

against the commandment of God not to add to His word, your traditions:

32 "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. (Deu 12:32 NKJ)

And what does he command? I Corinthians 11: 1 " 1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the Traditions just as I delivered them to you."

Again, you are the one confused, refusing to imitate the Apostles.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 02:17:27 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #294 on: September 08, 2010, 02:31:06 PM »

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:[/b]

"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)


Quote
Alfred--How is it that I agree with all of your citations and not with all of your conclusions? Is this because I am deficient in some way? Is it because you are gifted by the Holt Spirit above all of your interlocutors? Take the last quotation you used, that of Saint Peter who said "We ought to obey God rather than men." I must tell you that I was going to use that very verse to rebut you, in the sense of "we must obey God rather than Alfred." So, what gives? Why are you so resistant to others' viewpoints? Why are you hurling Scripture to us as if you are Zeus hurling lightning bolts? Is it possible that you are possessed by pride, the favorite tool of the Evil One? I just wonder and I pray for you. If I have offended you, please forgive me. Kyrill

Quote
I'm a critical thinker and you aren't.

That is your choice, there are books that teach the science. amazon.com

Your application of Peter's words rests upon equivocation fallacy, it posits God as both God and the human authorities you want to take His place, as long as they aren't me.

Truth is conformity to fact. What conforms to scripture fact is God's truth.

I heed God's truth. When you do, then we will agree. It will be a blessed moment I'll mark on my calendar.


Well now, this assertion of yours is very interesting. On the one hand, it shows an inordinate level of pride in your "critical thinking" capabilities. On the other hand, it shows that your thinking is affected by this inordinate pride, to the point that you summarily decide that a stranger (that would be me) is not a critical thinker. I will merely point out for future reference that I do have third-party evaluations that have deemed me to be a "critical thinker." I will provide you with this evidence but it will have to be through PM. In the meantime, I see lots of bluster on your part but little reflection. I fear you may be spiritually adrift and thus will continue to pray for you.

Your apologetic reminds me of Hollywood writers. They have the same essential script, they only change names to make it seem new.

It doesn't matter what I say, it will be evidence of my pride...

You aren't a critical thinker, if you were, you wouldn't have replied as you did.

Nothing wrong with not being a critical thinker, its your choice.

You asked why we arrive at different conclusions, I explained why. No harm, no foul.

No insult intended. It was just an explanation. We approach the same material differently.

I look at the grammar and syntax, to understand what the writer meant.

You inspect the fathers etc, to see if any of them discussed the text, and how they interpreted it.

Our methodology is fundamentally different, therefore we have different answers.



Critical thinking, is not something we are born with.

It is a science whose disciplines must be learned by study...and as our public schools don't teach it, you didn't learn it in school in America...you will have to learn this on your own.

I did, and am very glad I took the time, it enables one to see WHY something is  incorrect, why the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises, not just "feel" it might be wrong but not know why.

In fact I've only mastered the basics of informal logic, so it wouldn't take you long to surpass me if you wanted to.

peace


It is not true that I would consider everything that you said to be evidence of your pride. However, just your statement "It doesn't matter what I say, it will be evidence of my pride..." is prima facie evidence of a supreme arrogance that can come only from pride implanted into your heart by the Evil One. Pray with me please that you will be delivered from the clutches of the Great Liar. Lord have mercy on your servant Alfred!

BTW, I am awaiting your PM so that I could send to you the evidence of my critical thinking credentials.

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #295 on: September 08, 2010, 03:28:49 PM »
I think part of the problem is that Alfred is trying to interprate scriptures that come from Middle Eastern Jewish minds,  through an American Evangelical mindset. Such a method will never lead to a reliable interpretation of God's Word.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #296 on: September 08, 2010, 04:48:10 PM »
You evaded my question, this requires a yes or no answer:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus?

Are they "God-breathed" just like scripture?



If they are "God-breathed," explain why the text wasn't submitted to an Ecumenical Council for canonization:




All of Tradition is God-breathed, including Scripture.

As I said, it was not submitted to an ecumenical council because it doesn't need to be. Ecumenical Councils are not a ratification body that we run all our teachings past. They are held to respond to major heresies. There haven't been any along these lines, so why would they ever do such a thing?

And my question to you, again: Even if an ecumenical council did "canonize" Holy Tradition, why would you accept it anyway? You don't accept Icons, and an Ecumenical Council "canonized" those. I expect you wouldn't accept it, even if there was an Ecumenical Council, because everything ultimately is run through the filter of Alfred Persson's Opinion.

If your tradition is not canon, its not binding on believers.

Can you cite one Orthodox authority that describes non scriptural tradition as "God breathed", I think you are misrepresenting Orthodox belief.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #297 on: September 08, 2010, 04:50:28 PM »
It is not true that I would consider everything that you said to be evidence of your pride. However, just your statement "It doesn't matter what I say, it will be evidence of my pride..." is prima facie evidence of a supreme arrogance that can come only from pride implanted into your heart by the Evil One. Pray with me please that you will be delivered from the clutches of the Great Liar. Lord have mercy on your servant Alfred!

BTW, I am awaiting your PM so that I could send to you the evidence of my critical thinking credentials.

This should be good.

Don't  know about PM, so here is my email

email removed

But why not redact any info you don't want public, and post it here for all to see.

My credentials? GED from Texas (there was a time I wanted to be a plumber's helper and the union required it.)

That's it.


Alfred, I removed the email link from the above message.  For your personal online security and the security of your friends, we ask that you not post personal email addresses on the forum--sending a link to someone via PM is much safer.  Otherwise, you make yourself and others the potential target of web crawlers and spambots that can find your email address and hijack it.  -PtA
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 07:20:34 PM by PeterTheAleut »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #298 on: September 08, 2010, 04:54:25 PM »
You evaded my question, this requires a yes or no answer:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus?

Are they "God-breathed" just like scripture?



If they are "God-breathed," explain why the text wasn't submitted to an Ecumenical Council for canonization:




All of Tradition is God-breathed, including Scripture.

As I said, it was not submitted to an ecumenical council because it doesn't need to be. Ecumenical Councils are not a ratification body that we run all our teachings past. They are held to respond to major heresies. There haven't been any along these lines, so why would they ever do such a thing?

And my question to you, again: Even if an ecumenical council did "canonize" Holy Tradition, why would you accept it anyway? You don't accept Icons, and an Ecumenical Council "canonized" those. I expect you wouldn't accept it, even if there was an Ecumenical Council, because everything ultimately is run through the filter of Alfred Persson's Opinion.

If your tradition is not canon, its not binding on believers.

Can you cite one Orthodox authority that describes non scriptural tradition as "God breathed", I think you are misrepresenting Orthodox belief.



Why is something only binding if it's canonized (whatever that means)? On what grounds do you make such a claim? It can't be in the Bible, because there was no canon when the Bible was written, even for the Old Testament.

Alfred, this rabbit trail about things being "God Breathed" is a red herring and I refuse to engage you further in that aspect of this conversation. I have told you countless times what Tradition is and why it's inspired, and it's apparently not getting through to you.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 04:54:45 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #299 on: September 08, 2010, 05:03:26 PM »
You evaded my question, this requires a yes or no answer:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus?

Are they "God-breathed" just like scripture?



If they are "God-breathed," explain why the text wasn't submitted to an Ecumenical Council for canonization:




All of Tradition is God-breathed, including Scripture.

As I said, it was not submitted to an ecumenical council because it doesn't need to be. Ecumenical Councils are not a ratification body that we run all our teachings past. They are held to respond to major heresies. There haven't been any along these lines, so why would they ever do such a thing?

And my question to you, again: Even if an ecumenical council did "canonize" Holy Tradition, why would you accept it anyway? You don't accept Icons, and an Ecumenical Council "canonized" those. I expect you wouldn't accept it, even if there was an Ecumenical Council, because everything ultimately is run through the filter of Alfred Persson's Opinion.

If your tradition is not canon, its not binding on believers.

Can you cite one Orthodox authority that describes non scriptural tradition as "God breathed", I think you are misrepresenting Orthodox belief.



Why is something only binding if it's canonized (whatever that means)? On what grounds do you make such a claim? It can't be in the Bible, because there was no canon when the Bible was written, even for the Old Testament.

Alfred, this rabbit trail about things being "God Breathed" is a red herring and I refuse to engage you further in that aspect of this conversation. I have told you countless times what Tradition is and why it's inspired, and it's apparently not getting through to you.

If its not canon, its not ecclesiastical law.

You lowered Scripture to the level of your tradition, in effect adding to the Word of God, the word of men.

I don't believe that is Orthodox...I don't believe the Orthodox say the fathers etc, are God's breathed tradition equal to scripture.

I think you are misrepresenting Orthodoxy, to avoid the possibility scripture might contradict your tradition.

So if you are giving up, its because you are evading the issue.

You claimed the Orthodox say non scriptural tradition is God breathed, and I demand to see proof of that.

That is why you won't speak to me any further, you can't back up your claims.

One of the first rules of trying to convince others you speak truth, speak the truth.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #300 on: September 08, 2010, 05:13:32 PM »
You evaded my question, this requires a yes or no answer:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus?

Are they "God-breathed" just like scripture?



If they are "God-breathed," explain why the text wasn't submitted to an Ecumenical Council for canonization:




All of Tradition is God-breathed, including Scripture.

As I said, it was not submitted to an ecumenical council because it doesn't need to be. Ecumenical Councils are not a ratification body that we run all our teachings past. They are held to respond to major heresies. There haven't been any along these lines, so why would they ever do such a thing?

And my question to you, again: Even if an ecumenical council did "canonize" Holy Tradition, why would you accept it anyway? You don't accept Icons, and an Ecumenical Council "canonized" those. I expect you wouldn't accept it, even if there was an Ecumenical Council, because everything ultimately is run through the filter of Alfred Persson's Opinion.

If your tradition is not canon, its not binding on believers.

Can you cite one Orthodox authority that describes non scriptural tradition as "God breathed", I think you are misrepresenting Orthodox belief.



Why is something only binding if it's canonized (whatever that means)? On what grounds do you make such a claim? It can't be in the Bible, because there was no canon when the Bible was written, even for the Old Testament.

Alfred, this rabbit trail about things being "God Breathed" is a red herring and I refuse to engage you further in that aspect of this conversation. I have told you countless times what Tradition is and why it's inspired, and it's apparently not getting through to you.

If its not canon, its not ecclesiastical law.

You lowered Scripture to the level of your tradition, in effect adding to the Word of God, the word of men.

I don't believe that is Orthodox...I don't believe the Orthodox say the fathers etc, are God's breathed tradition equal to scripture.

I think you are misrepresenting Orthodoxy, to avoid the possibility scripture might contradict your tradition.

So if you are giving up, its because you are evading the issue.

You claimed the Orthodox say non scriptural tradition is God breathed, and I demand to see proof of that.

That is why you won't speak to me any further, you can't back up your claims.

One of the first rules of trying to convince others you speak truth, speak the truth.



I don't know where you are getting this stuff about canons and ecclesiastical laws. You don't believe in ecclesiastical law anyway, so again, this is a red herring.

For the last time, Alfred: Holy Tradition is the Life of the Holy Spirit in the Church. How many times do people have to tell you this? Yes, God's life is God-breathed. Metropolitan Kallistos talks all about this in The Orthodox Church"=, a very elementary introduction to Orthodoxy. (Have you read it?)

Scripture is neither above nor below Tradition. Scripture is a part of the whole of Tradition. If Scripture is God-breathed, then Tradition MUST be because Scripture comes out of Tradition. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit.

I've already told you how to see proof. Go to Divine Liturgy. Kiss a relic. Prostrate before an icon. Get chrismated and take Holy Communion. Orthodoxy is not a religion of books, it's a life of actions.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 05:15:20 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #301 on: September 08, 2010, 06:30:59 PM »
You evaded my question, this requires a yes or no answer:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus?

Are they "God-breathed" just like scripture?



If they are "God-breathed," explain why the text wasn't submitted to an Ecumenical Council for canonization:




All of Tradition is God-breathed, including Scripture.

As I said, it was not submitted to an ecumenical council because it doesn't need to be. Ecumenical Councils are not a ratification body that we run all our teachings past. They are held to respond to major heresies. There haven't been any along these lines, so why would they ever do such a thing?

And my question to you, again: Even if an ecumenical council did "canonize" Holy Tradition, why would you accept it anyway? You don't accept Icons, and an Ecumenical Council "canonized" those. I expect you wouldn't accept it, even if there was an Ecumenical Council, because everything ultimately is run through the filter of Alfred Persson's Opinion.

If your tradition is not canon, its not binding on believers.

Can you cite one Orthodox authority that describes non scriptural tradition as "God breathed", I think you are misrepresenting Orthodox belief.



Why is something only binding if it's canonized (whatever that means)? On what grounds do you make such a claim? It can't be in the Bible, because there was no canon when the Bible was written, even for the Old Testament.

Alfred, this rabbit trail about things being "God Breathed" is a red herring and I refuse to engage you further in that aspect of this conversation. I have told you countless times what Tradition is and why it's inspired, and it's apparently not getting through to you.

If its not canon, its not ecclesiastical law.

You lowered Scripture to the level of your tradition, in effect adding to the Word of God, the word of men.

I don't believe that is Orthodox...I don't believe the Orthodox say the fathers etc, are God's breathed tradition equal to scripture.

I think you are misrepresenting Orthodoxy, to avoid the possibility scripture might contradict your tradition.

So if you are giving up, its because you are evading the issue.

You claimed the Orthodox say non scriptural tradition is God breathed, and I demand to see proof of that.

That is why you won't speak to me any further, you can't back up your claims.

One of the first rules of trying to convince others you speak truth, speak the truth.



I don't know where you are getting this stuff about canons and ecclesiastical laws. You don't believe in ecclesiastical law anyway, so again, this is a red herring.

For the last time, Alfred: Holy Tradition is the Life of the Holy Spirit in the Church. How many times do people have to tell you this? Yes, God's life is God-breathed. Metropolitan Kallistos talks all about this in The Orthodox Church"=, a very elementary introduction to Orthodoxy. (Have you read it?)

Scripture is neither above nor below Tradition. Scripture is a part of the whole of Tradition. If Scripture is God-breathed, then Tradition MUST be because Scripture comes out of Tradition. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit.

I've already told you how to see proof. Go to Divine Liturgy. Kiss a relic. Prostrate before an icon. Get chrismated and take Holy Communion. Orthodoxy is not a religion of books, it's a life of actions.

I ask once more for an "official" quote showing the Orthodox believe non scriptural tradition is "God breathed" like scripture.

I can't find them saying this, only you. Your deduction they believe this isn't enough, something this important would be expressly stated somewhere by an authority in the Orthodox church. Your deduction isn't good enough.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #302 on: September 08, 2010, 06:57:07 PM »
Alfred, just how small do you think our God is that He can be confined to ink and paper? And yes, that's exactly what you want - Solā Scripturā, whatever "sola verbum dei" is, "canonization", "ecclesiastical law" - in my fifty+ years as a Protestant, I never saw such demanding legalism.

Why do you want us to squeeze Him into a package of your making?

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #303 on: September 08, 2010, 07:01:22 PM »
Alfred, just how small do you think our God is that He can be confined to ink and paper? And yes, that's exactly what you want - Solā Scripturā, whatever "sola verbum dei" is, "canonization", "ecclesiastical law" - in my fifty+ years as a Protestant, I never saw such demanding legalism.

Why do you want us to squeeze Him into a package of your making?
AMEN!!!
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #304 on: September 08, 2010, 07:03:55 PM »
It seems to me that Protestants need to believe in Sola Scriptura because then God can be examined and classified into neat little categories that can be observed by man, rather than allowing for the fact that God is the transcendant mystery. This seems like a very humanistic religion and it may explain why you never really hear of true Protestant mystics.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #305 on: September 08, 2010, 07:05:20 PM »
I ask once more for an "official" quote showing the Orthodox believe non scriptural tradition is "God breathed" like scripture.

Your arguments resemble those of someone whom I spent hours debating Church history even though the man didn't believe in history prior to the 20th Century.  He was a lapsed Catholic and very agnostic.

I can't find them saying this, only you. Your deduction they believe this isn't enough, something this important would be expressly stated somewhere by an authority in the Orthodox church. Your deduction isn't good enough.

You are the one who rejects the authority of the Orthodox Church for your man-made innovations to suit your own belief system.  You reject Christ without even knowing or admitting to it.

Offline DennyB

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #306 on: September 08, 2010, 08:40:36 PM »
It seems to me that Protestants need to believe in Sola Scriptura because then God can be examined and classified into neat little categories that can be observed by man, rather than allowing for the fact that God is the transcendant mystery. This seems like a very humanistic religion and it may explain why you never really hear of true Protestant mystics.


You sound more Eastern Orthodox,than you do Catholic.  I think it could be said that some of these effects can be in part blamed on the Scholasticism introduced into the mindset of the Church.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #307 on: September 08, 2010, 09:14:50 PM »
You evaded my question, this requires a yes or no answer:

LXE  Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

Did God author your tradition...your councils, the fathers when in consensus?

Are they "God-breathed" just like scripture?



If they are "God-breathed," explain why the text wasn't submitted to an Ecumenical Council for canonization:




All of Tradition is God-breathed, including Scripture.

As I said, it was not submitted to an ecumenical council because it doesn't need to be. Ecumenical Councils are not a ratification body that we run all our teachings past. They are held to respond to major heresies. There haven't been any along these lines, so why would they ever do such a thing?

And my question to you, again: Even if an ecumenical council did "canonize" Holy Tradition, why would you accept it anyway? You don't accept Icons, and an Ecumenical Council "canonized" those. I expect you wouldn't accept it, even if there was an Ecumenical Council, because everything ultimately is run through the filter of Alfred Persson's Opinion.

If your tradition is not canon, its not binding on believers.

Can you cite one Orthodox authority that describes non scriptural tradition as "God breathed", I think you are misrepresenting Orthodox belief.



Why is something only binding if it's canonized (whatever that means)? On what grounds do you make such a claim? It can't be in the Bible, because there was no canon when the Bible was written, even for the Old Testament.

Alfred, this rabbit trail about things being "God Breathed" is a red herring and I refuse to engage you further in that aspect of this conversation. I have told you countless times what Tradition is and why it's inspired, and it's apparently not getting through to you.

If its not canon, its not ecclesiastical law.

You lowered Scripture to the level of your tradition, in effect adding to the Word of God, the word of men.

I don't believe that is Orthodox...I don't believe the Orthodox say the fathers etc, are God's breathed tradition equal to scripture.

I think you are misrepresenting Orthodoxy, to avoid the possibility scripture might contradict your tradition.

So if you are giving up, its because you are evading the issue.

You claimed the Orthodox say non scriptural tradition is God breathed, and I demand to see proof of that.

That is why you won't speak to me any further, you can't back up your claims.

One of the first rules of trying to convince others you speak truth, speak the truth.



I don't know where you are getting this stuff about canons and ecclesiastical laws. You don't believe in ecclesiastical law anyway, so again, this is a red herring.

For the last time, Alfred: Holy Tradition is the Life of the Holy Spirit in the Church. How many times do people have to tell you this? Yes, God's life is God-breathed. Metropolitan Kallistos talks all about this in The Orthodox Church"=, a very elementary introduction to Orthodoxy. (Have you read it?)

Scripture is neither above nor below Tradition. Scripture is a part of the whole of Tradition. If Scripture is God-breathed, then Tradition MUST be because Scripture comes out of Tradition. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit.

I've already told you how to see proof. Go to Divine Liturgy. Kiss a relic. Prostrate before an icon. Get chrismated and take Holy Communion. Orthodoxy is not a religion of books, it's a life of actions.

I ask once more for an "official" quote showing the Orthodox believe non scriptural tradition is "God breathed" like scripture.

I can't find them saying this, only you. Your deduction they believe this isn't enough, something this important would be expressly stated somewhere by an authority in the Orthodox church. Your deduction isn't good enough.



You seem to have a real issue with things that aren't explicitly stated and defined. I join Papist in pointing out that God will not be boxed up, categorized, or controlled. His life exists quite apart from our recorded observations of it. That is why reading books (or in your case, not reading books) about Orthodoxy is not enough. The life really must be lived to fully understand it. That is because, unlike Protestantism, Orthodoxy is a religion, not a philosophy.

Alfred, my supplying of a quote or not does not change what the Church teaches. I reject your premise out-of-hand. This is the teaching of the Church, and I feel confident in that fact despite not offering a prooftext to you (we frown on prooftexting anyway).

My deductive reasoning was a way of explaining this to you, not a defense of the position. The Church knows these things in her bones without need for treatises. (Ultimately, treatises are only written to bring heretics to their senses, not because faithful members of the Church have any use for them.)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:18:12 PM by bogdan »

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #308 on: September 08, 2010, 09:25:52 PM »
I ask once more for an "official" quote showing the Orthodox believe non scriptural tradition is "God breathed" like scripture.

Your arguments resemble those of someone whom I spent hours debating Church history even though the man didn't believe in history prior to the 20th Century.  He was a lapsed Catholic and very agnostic.

That's interesting, because Alfred's positions are coming to resemble what Fr Stephen Freeman calls "Christian Atheism"; that is, if God were to suddenly cease to exist, the Christian Atheist would not even notice so long as the rules didn't change. That's atheism dressed up as Christianity. The existence or non-existence of God really has little practical bearing on life.

I'm not saying Alfred is an atheist, but I am saying that I don't really get the sense that Alfred worships a living God with an existence beyond the words of the Bible.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:28:17 PM by bogdan »

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #309 on: September 08, 2010, 10:00:49 PM »
Alfred, just out of curiosity, have you ever attended any kind of service at an Orthodox church, or at least been inside one?  I'm sure there must be at least a few in your area.
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #310 on: September 08, 2010, 10:03:56 PM »
It seems to me that Protestants need to believe in Sola Scriptura because then God can be examined and classified into neat little categories that can be observed by man, rather than allowing for the fact that God is the transcendant mystery. This seems like a very humanistic religion and it may explain why you never really hear of true Protestant mystics.

The 700 Club doesn't count as Protestant Mysticism when most of them are born-again?   ::)

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #311 on: September 08, 2010, 10:22:45 PM »
It seems to me that Protestants need to believe in Sola Scriptura because then God can be examined and classified into neat little categories that can be observed by man, rather than allowing for the fact that God is the transcendant mystery. This seems like a very humanistic religion and it may explain why you never really hear of true Protestant mystics.

Yeah, now that I am Orthodox, I am starting to see more and more how it really was a 16th century Academic revolt.

It was something that was started in the class room. And to be honest, this wasn't the only class room Frankenstein experiment to wreck havoc on Europe and the rest of the World. Modern Atheism is also a western European class room Frankenstein monster. The only difference I see at the moment is that one is more consistent than the other.

In the 16th century Academic revolt, they criticized the Eucharist, Water Baptism.....etc

The next Academic revolt was only more consistent in it's cynicism.

And militant Atheists are just more consistent than the soft Atheists that came before. I see it as more and more consistent cynicism and skepticism.

It has gotten to the point of Sola Philosophical Naturalism! But what will happen if a future Academic movement is even cynical of this? It would rip any sort of meaning of anything. Everything will be disorder and chaos. There would be no bases for anything. No nothing! Nothing but chaos and confusion!
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 10:29:30 PM by jnorm888 »
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Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #312 on: September 08, 2010, 10:41:05 PM »
It seems to me that Protestants need to believe in Sola Scriptura because then God can be examined and classified into neat little categories that can be observed by man, rather than allowing for the fact that God is the transcendant mystery. This seems like a very humanistic religion and it may explain why you never really hear of true Protestant mystics.


You sound more Eastern Orthodox,than you do Catholic.  I think it could be said that some of these effects can be in part blamed on the Scholasticism introduced into the mindset of the Church.
Read my signature. St. Thomas Aquinas believed in apophatic theology.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #313 on: September 08, 2010, 10:42:45 PM »

It has gotten to the point of Sola Philosophical Naturalism! But what will happen if a future Academic movement is even cynical of this? It would rip any sort of meaning of anything. Everything will be disorder and chaos. There would be no bases for anything. No nothing! Nothing but chaos and confusion!

Philosophy has been moving in this direction for a while now. Decartes pushed human thinking in this direction, unknowningly of course.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 10:44:08 PM by Papist »
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #314 on: September 09, 2010, 12:30:22 AM »
It seems to me that Protestants need to believe in Sola Scriptura because then God can be examined and classified into neat little categories that can be observed by man, rather than allowing for the fact that God is the transcendant mystery. This seems like a very humanistic religion and it may explain why you never really hear of true Protestant mystics.

The 700 Club doesn't count as Protestant Mysticism when most of them are born-again?   ::)
??? What's that supposed to mean?
Not all who wander are lost.