Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 187751 times)

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Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #225 on: September 05, 2010, 11:12:04 PM »
jnorm888: Thanks for posting a link to that site, I think I'm going to have a lot of fun reading from it.   ;D


Back to the topic: Alfred, I wonder if you have ever tried attending an Orthodox church? If you don't think you are ready to do that just yet, you may wish to do a simple search for the church nearest where you live, and perhaps write an e-mail or call the priest. Ask questions, ask for help-- I've found the people in my own parish to be very helpful and friendly as I got to know them. If nothing else, I don't think they'd mind letting you know about some interesting sources for further reading. If you ever feel up to it, you may even wish to try sitting in on a service of Vespers or Orthros. There's no Communion given out at these two in particular, so you don't have to worry about that, and they generally run between 50-70 minutes at the outside.

And if even this does not suit you, some more online searches should turn up Orthodox church websites which post live and archived video broadcasts of their services, so you can see what they're doing in there. In my own experience, I read, heard, watched clips and so on, but it was when I went to church that it all 'clicked' for me. You may find that the Orthodox are not such rare 'creatures' (pardon the term) as you seem to think. Believe it or not, you might like them.

Oh, and many parishes have an after-church social hour, with coffee and donuts. Donuts!  ;D Who does not like these?   :D

Good luck to you.
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #226 on: September 06, 2010, 01:12:51 AM »


Yes, I behave precisely as primitive Orthodox do, the fathers.

Can you name them? Who did you have in mind?


 
Quote
They cited scripture for their beliefs, not each other.

Do you read them? If not, then how could you really know? Did you know that Saint Hippolytus quotes Saint  Irenaeus? Did you know that Saint Irenaeus talks about Saints Polycarp and Papius?

They even quote non saints, or people that went awry later in life or the Church later in time saw as awry. Saint Cyprian quotes Tertullian, and some quote Origen.

Quote
I am a primitive Orthodox, that is why I do what they did, cite scripture proof texts to prove my beliefs are apostolical, and not a discovery of my own.

Do you know their rule of faith? Your rule of faith is not the same as theirs.



Quote
You cannot be serious comparing me to God, there is no contest. He is clear, perspicacious, I remain obscure...but I am trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture...learning from the Master as it were. I have far to go.

So Korah didn't? Are you saying Arius wasn't trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture? Are you saying that Sabellius wasn't trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture?

Are you saying that the circumcision party wasn't trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture?


I forgot to mention that they also quoted from the D.C.'s/Anagignoskomena as Scripture. This is something you don't do:

http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2010/08/book-of-wisdom-early-christians.html (The Book of Wisdom & Early Christians)


Quote:
“What synagogue of wicked men encompasses me [Ps. 22:16b], they surround me as bees around honey [Ps. 118:12a], and for my garments they cast lots [Ps. 22:18b].
7. Thus, since he was about to be manifested in flesh and to suffer, his passion was revealed beforehand. 7b. For the prophet says concerning Israel:
Who to them, for they devised a wicked plot against themselves when they said, “Let us bind the Righteous One, for he is displeasing to us” [Isa. 3:9b-10a; see Wisd. 2:12].
Barnabas (70 A.D.) page 277 “The Apostolic Fathers” edited by Jack N. Sparks


“Both the Virginity of Mary and her giving birth escaped the notice of the prince of this age, as did the Lord’s death-three mysteries of a cry, wrought in the stillness of God. 2 How then was he made manifest to the ages? A star shone forth in heaven brighter than all the stars, and its light was ineffable and its novelty produced astonishment; all the other stars, with sun and moon, gathered in chorus about this star, and it outshone them all [cf. Wisd. 7:29,30; 18:14,15]. There was perplexity as to the origin of this novelty, so unlike the others. 3. Thus all magic was dissolved and every bond of wickedness [cf. Isa. 58:6] vanished; ignorance was abolished and the old kingdom was destroyed, since God was becoming manifest in human form for the newness of eternal life [cf. Rom. 6:4]; what had been prepared by God [cf. 1 Cor. 2:9] had its beginning. Hence everything was shaken together, for the abolition of death was being planned." Ignatius (110 A.D.) page 83 “The letters of Ignatius of Antioch Ephesians” “The Apostolic Fathers”, edited by Jack N. Sparks


“Having this hope, then, let our souls be bound to him who is faithful to his promises [cf. Heb. 10:23] and just in his judgments. 2. He it is who commanded us not to lie: how much the more will he not lie himself! For the one thing that is impossible to god is to be false [cf. Heb. 6:18]. 3. Let our faith in him then be rekindled in us, and bear in mind that all things are near him. 4. By the word of his majesty he established all things, and by his word he can bring them to nought. 5. “Who will say to him, “What have you done?’ Or who can stand against the might of his power?” [Wisd. 12:12; 11:22]. When he wills and as he wills he shall accomplished all things, and not one of the things he has decreed can fail. 6. All things lie open to his sight, and nothing has escaped his will, 7. since “the heavens are telling the glory of God, and the firmament proclaims his handiwork; day to day pours forth speech and night to night declares knowledge; yet there are neither words nor speech, and their voices are not heard” [Ps. 19:1-3]. 1st Clement (90A.D.) page 33 “The letter of Clement of Rome to Corinth” “The Apostolic Fathers” edited by Jack N. Sparks


“For this reason righteousness and peace stand at a distance, while each one has abandoned the fear of God and become nearly blind with respect to faith in him, neither walking according to the laws of his commandments nor living in accordance with his duty toward Christ. Instead, all follow the lusts of their evil heart, inasmuch as they have assumed that attitude of unrighteous and ungodly jealously through which, in fact, death entered into the world.” [Wisdom 2:24] 1st Clement (90 A.D.) page 49 “First Clement salutation” 3.4 Michael W. Holmes, “The Apostolic Fathers: 3rd edition”

(The book of Wisdom was compiled as Scripture in some regions of the Church along with New Testament books)
“There are extant also a letter to the Laodikeians, and another to the Alexandrians, forged in Paulus' name to further Markion's school of thought. And there are many others which cannot be received into the universal assembly, for "it is not fitting for vinegar to be mixed with honey."
“Indeed, the letter of Judah, and two entitled Johannes, are accepted in the universal assembly, along with the Wisdom, written by the friends of Solomon in his honor. We receive also the Revelations of Johannes and Peter, the latter of which some refuse to have read in the assembly.”
Muratorian Fragment (155 A.D.) http://www.friktech.com/rel/muratori.htm


(Tertullian calls the book of Wisdom a Christian authority)
“However, Dicæarchus has several authorities against him— and philosophers too— Plato, Strato, Epicurus, Democritus, Empedocles, Socrates, Aristotle; while in opposition to Andreas and Asclepiades (may be placed their brother) physicians Herophilus, Erasistratus, Diocles, Hippocrates, and Soranus himself; and better than all others, there are our Christian authorities. We are taught by God concerning both these questions— viz. that there is a ruling power in the soul, and that it is enshrined in one particular recess of the body. For, when one reads of God as being the searcher and witness of the heart; [Wisdom 1:6] when His prophet is reproved by His discovering to him the secrets of the heart; [Proverbs 24:12] when God Himself anticipates in His people the thoughts of their heart, Why do you think evil in your hearts?”
Tertullian (155-250) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0310.htm


(in talking about the book of Wisdom)
“. I produce now the prophecy of Solomon, which speaks of Christ, and announces clearly and perspicuously things concerning the Jews; and those which not only are befalling them at the present time, but those, too, which shall befall them in the future age, on account of the contumacy and audacity which they exhibited toward the Prince of Life; for the prophet says, The ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright, that is, about Christ, Let us lie in wait for the righteous, because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings and words, and upbraids us with our offending the law, and professes to have knowledge of God; and he calls himself the Child of God. And then he says, He is grievous to us even to behold; for his life is not like other men's, and his ways are of another fashion. We are esteemed of him as counterfeits, and he abstains from our ways as from filthiness, and pronounces the end of the just to be blessed. And again, listen to this, O Jew! None of the righteous or prophets called himself the Son of God. And therefore, as in the person of the Jews, solomon speaks again of this righteous one, who is Christ, thus: He was made to reprove our thoughts, and he makes his boast that God is his Father. Let us see, then, if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him; for if the just man be the Son of God, He will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies. Let us condemn him with a shameful death, for by his own saying he shall be respected.” Hippolytus (170 A.D. -235 A.D.) “Against the Jews”
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0503.htm


“The divine Wisdom says of the martyrs, “They seemed in the eyes of the foolish to die, and their departure was reckoned a calamity, and their migration from us an affliction. But they are in peace. For though in the sight of men they were punished, their hope was full of immortality.”28312831 Wisd. iii. 2, 3, 4. [Ws 3:1-4] He then adds, teaching martyrdom to be a glorious purification, “And being chastened a little, they shall be benefited much; because God proved them,” that is, suffered them to be tried, to put them to the proof, and to put to shame the author of their trial, “and found them worthy of Himself,” plainly to be called sons." Clement of Alexandria (150 A.D.-216 A.D.) “The Stromata 4:16”
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iv.iv.xv.html


“The Holy Spirit shows and predicts by Solomon, saying: “And although in the sight of men they suffered torments, yet their hope is full of immortality. And having been troubled in a few things, they shall be in many happily ordered, because God has tried them, and has found them worthy of Himself. As gold in the furnace, He hath tried them; and as whole burnt-offerings of sacrifice, He hath received them, and in its season there will be respect of them. They will shine and run about as sparks in a place set with reeds. In many editions this clause is wanting. They shall judge the nations, and have dominion over the peoples; and their Lord shall reign for ever.” [Wisdom 3:4] In the same also our vengeance is described, and the repentance of those who persecute and molest us is announced.” Cyprian (200A.D.-258A.D.) ch 12 “Exhortation to Martydom”
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iv.v.xi.xiv.html


“The prophet threatens that evils will be kindled by the north wind upon all who inhabit the earth. Now the north wind is described in holy Scripture as cold, according to the statement in the book of Wisdom, That cold north wind; Sirach 43:20 which same thing also must undoubtedly be understood of the devil.” Origen (180A.D.-230A.D.) “De principiis”
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04122.htm


(at this time Jews rejected the book, and it’s possible that a few Christians did too…like Africanus, but most Christians thought it was scripture, Origen included)
“And if this word matter should happen to occur in any other passage, it will never be found, in my opinion, to have the signification of which we are now in quest, unless perhaps in the book which is called the Wisdom of Solomon, a work which is certainly not esteemed authoritative by all. In that book, however, we find written as follows: For your almighty hand, that made the world out of shapeless matter, wanted not means to send among them a multitude of bears and fierce lions.” Origen(180A.D.-230A.D.) “De Principiis”
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04124.htm


“By this drowning, however, it is not to be supposed that God's providence as regards Pharaoh was terminated; for we must not imagine, because he was drowned, that therefore he had forthwith completely perished: for in the hand of God are both we and our words; all wisdom, also, and knowledge of workmanship, as Scripture declares.[Wisdom 7:16]” Origen(180A.D.-230A.D.) “De Principiis” Book 3 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04123.htm


(at this time Jews rejected the book, and it’s possible that a few Christians did too…like Africanus, but most Christians thought it was scripture, Origen included)

“And if this word matter should happen to occur in any other passage, it will never be found, in my opinion, to have the signification of which we are now in quest, unless perhaps in the book which is called the Wisdom of Solomon, a work which is certainly not esteemed authoritative by all. In that book, however, we find written as follows: For your almighty hand, that made the world out of shapeless matter, wanted not means to send among them a multitude of bears and fierce lions.” Origen(180A.D.-230A.D.) “De Principiis” http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04124.htm


“By this drowning, however, it is not to be supposed that God's providence as regards Pharaoh was terminated; for we must not imagine, because he was drowned, that therefore he had forthwith completely perished: for in the hand of God are both we and our words; all wisdom, also, and knowledge of workmanship, as Scripture declares." [Wisdom 7:16]”Origen(180A.D.-230A.D.) “De Principiis” Book 3
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04123.htm


“But Marcella, interrupting, said, O Theophila, there appears here a great mistake, and something contrary to what you have said; and do you think to escape under cover of the cloud which you have thrown around you? For there comes that argument, which perhaps any one who addresses you as a very wise person will bring forward: What do you say of those who are begotten unlawfully in adultery? For you laid it down that it was inconceivable and impossible for any one to enter into the world unless he was introduced by the will of the divine Ruler, his frame being prepared for him by God. And that you may not take refuge behind a safe wall, bringing forward the Scripture which says, 'As for the children of the adulterers, they shall not come to their perfection, ' Wisdom 3:16 he will answer you easily, that we often see those who are unlawfully begotten coming to perfection like ripe fruit.”
Methodius (311 A.D.) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/062302.htm


“If she were, in some fit of weakness, to admit the defilement to her heart, she would herself have broken the covenant of her spiritual marriage; and, as the Scripture tells us, into the malicious soul Wisdom cannot come Wisdom 1:4 .” Saint Gregory (385A.D.) http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2907.htm
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 01:13:48 AM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #227 on: September 06, 2010, 01:27:37 AM »
Don't mind me...I'm just feeling the love

You refused to answer our Roman Catholic friend Papist. He mentioned:
2 Thess 2:15
"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

Your interpretation of 2Ti 3:16-17 goes against what Paul said in 2nd Thess 2:15

 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.



According to you, only the 66 books you accept were given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Not only that but you believe only Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

This goes against what Paul said in 2nd Thess 2:15.

It would seem as if the correct interpretation is one of "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness....etc. But so are other things.....like what Saint Paul said orally.





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« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 01:28:35 AM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #228 on: September 06, 2010, 09:22:09 AM »
Don't mind me...I'm just feeling the love

You refused to answer our Roman Catholic friend Papist. He mentioned:
2 Thess 2:15
"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

Your interpretation of 2Ti 3:16-17 goes against what Paul said in 2nd Thess 2:15

 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.



According to you, only the 66 books you accept were given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Not only that but you believe only Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

This goes against what Paul said in 2nd Thess 2:15.

It would seem as if the correct interpretation is one of "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness....etc. But so are other things.....like what Saint Paul said orally.





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Oh that tired argument, I put it to rest years ago...let me dig into my archives...

1)Oral tradition became scripture:    

At about 51-52 AD Paul' commanded obedience to both apostolic word and letter, so both coexisted at that time.    

2 Th 2:15  Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.      

BUT a chronological list of NT books has 2 Thessalonians as the 6th NT, a full 21 bible books were written after that.    

Even in 2 Thessalonians we see the process of oral becoming written:    

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? (2Th 2:5 RSV)    

The process continued throughout the writing of the NT (AD. 68-70):      

17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;    
 
18 they said to you, "In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions."    (Jud 1:17-18 RSV)    


2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:    

 Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:    


16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,    

17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 RSV)    




Your argument gets confused when you link this to the canon. Paul seems to be referring to the OT alone as "all scripture" because he speaks of the time when "Timothy was a child:"

NKJ  2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

2 Tim was written about 67 AD, in Paul's culture one is a child until twelve. So if Timothy is in his late twenties, then this is pushed back at about 15 years leaving only the Old Testament and synoptic gospels and perhaps a couple of letters, James and Galatians.

So Paul's point is even more powerful, as scripture then could make the child Timothy wise INTO (eis) salvation, how much more can it now that we have the completed New Testament.

Paul's statements are made in history, that oral tradition and scripture coexisted for a time does not meant that is the case today, the NT is completed.

What make Catholics and Orthodox inconsistent is the fact the canon is closed. If the Word of God were being channeled through them in any way, their words would be scripture...the canon would still be undefined, open.

So Catholics, East and West contradict themselves, but agree with me, the canon is closed. It is irrelevant to my point we disagree what books are canon, what is material is we all agree its closed.





Post modified to replace forbidden epithet with an acceptable alternative.

If you are speaking or referring to a particular poster on this forum who self-identifies as Papist, then feel free to address him by the username he has chosen for himself.  Otherwise, we do not permit the use of "Papist" as an epithet, since the majority of Catholics deem the label very insulting.

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« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 04:08:26 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #229 on: September 06, 2010, 09:44:10 AM »
^
1. Alfred, you have not really offered evidence for you position. You have simply asserted your postion again.
2. Are you saying that there was a time when Sola Scriptura was not true, but then became true? So I guess you do not agree with the bible when it says that the faith was "once and for all delivered unto the saints," because you allow for a change in doctrine.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 09:44:57 AM by Papist »
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #230 on: September 06, 2010, 10:28:37 AM »
So if the Scriptures were complete and capable of leading people to salvation at the time of St Paul, then clearly we should be Jews, because the Gospels and Epistles were not considered scripture (in the sense that the Old Testament is scripture) until at least several decades after the Apostles died.

If Alfred had held his present beliefs in the first century, he would indeed have been a Jew, because the Christians radically reinterpreted a lot of OT scripture. That's why the Jews were so upset with Christians, because they felt their religion was being hijacked by heretics.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 10:30:26 AM by bogdan »

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #231 on: September 06, 2010, 10:43:52 AM »
2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:   

 Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:   
...

What make Papists and Orthodox inconsistent is the fact the canon is closed. If the Word of God were being channeled through them in any way, their words would be scripture...the canon would still be undefined, open.

So Catholics, East and West contradict themselves, but agree with me, the canon is closed. It is irrelevant to my point we disagree what books are canon, what is material is we all agree its closed.

The Orthodox Church has provided us (and that includes you, Alfred) with the writings that it deems canonical. I would appreciate correction from other Orthodox Christians if necessary, but I'm not aware that the word "closed" is appropriate in regards to the canon, though I will agree to the term "fixed". We aren't dogmatic about what we don't know, about what hasn't been revealed to us.

You are still adding the word "only" when you write about the profitability, etc. of Scripture. We understand that the Holy Scriptures are the inspired written record of God's revelation to and interaction with His people. The key for us is God's revelation of Himself, which is ongoing and alive. We, unlike you, are not like the Muslims or Mormons whose Scriptures were handed to them intact supposedly written by God Himself (yes, you have said that - see my reminder in the next paragraph), and outside of a living relationship with God.

God is not found in a book - which is exactly what you are saying when you declare that "God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others". He is found in a living relationship. 

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #232 on: September 06, 2010, 01:35:16 PM »
Quote from: Alfred Persson
All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible

But it's written.

Do a Google search for "oral Torah." Here's the first thing that comes up. (Not counting the ads.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Torah

Our Lord during His life on Earth was called "Rabboni," our teacher, by his Jewish neighbors, and it's kind of interesting to get a look at what informed life and thought in those times. Just an aside. Now back to the other question in the post.

Quote from: Alfred Persson
So Catholics, East and West contradict themselves, but agree with me, the canon is closed. It is irrelevant to my point we disagree what books are canon, what is material is we all agree its closed.

What you don't agree with, oddly enough, is that the thing which made it 'canonical' in the first place was the Ecumenical Council which decided what books belong in the Bible and what don't. Because if you did, you'd have to, in good conscience, try to find a church which was traceable to these roots... in other words, the Orthodox Church. So you tout the authority of the Bible, but you resist the standing of the very church whom the Lord in his mercy guided to give us the Bible.  ??? I'm sorry things have come to this.

I fear for you that you don't seem to accept or acknowledge any barometer other than your own. Please try not to let your self-assurance turn into a bad version of itself.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 01:36:31 PM by biro »
My only weakness is, well, never mind

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #233 on: September 06, 2010, 03:46:16 PM »

2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:    

 Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:    


16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,    

17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 RSV)    


That's a non sequitur argument, since your conclusion that all necessary oral tradition now exists in the Bible does not follow at all from your premise that God wrote the Bible that we may be fully equipped.  The fact that God inspired the writing of the Scriptures that we may be fully equipped does not preclude other forms of divine revelation that God made to us for the same purpose.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 03:48:51 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #234 on: September 06, 2010, 05:10:53 PM »

2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:    

 Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:    


16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,    

17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 RSV)    


That's a non sequitur argument, since your conclusion that all necessary oral tradition now exists in the Bible does not follow at all from your premise that God wrote the Bible that we may be fully equipped.  The fact that God inspired the writing of the Scriptures that we may be fully equipped does not preclude other forms of divine revelation that God made to us for the same purpose.

No, it follows, Paul says the Bible completely equips, therefore it does.

BUT this is the second time (or more) you inferred I say this excludes other forms of divine revelation.

I don't say that at all.

Its always possible God grant a vision, dream, or send an angel.

What I say is I test anything outside of scripture, by scripture. So even if I had a vision, and discovered it contradicted the Bible, I would reject the vision.

That's what "sola scriptura" means, not that we deny tradition or any teaching outside of the Bible as being true or potentially helpful.

Sola scriptura means scripture alone is the undisputed infallible word of God, everything else has less authority, so when these conflict, scripture is accepted and the other rejected.


I do argue, as God makes me complete for every good work, via scripture, I do not need church traditions to be complete. Perhaps that is what you meant


Regarding that, I make the following argument against both Catholic and Orthodox tradition:

As both God and Paul say scripture is able to make wise EIS "into" salvation and that scripture completely equips for every good work, which necessarily includes the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others...


To have tradition equal to Scripure in authority is either superfluous or pernicious.


IF Tradition agrees with Scripture, its superfluous.
If Tradition disagrees with Scripture, its pernicious.

As Tradition must either agree or disagree with scripture, Tradition is either superfluous or pernicious.

Therefore Tradition is either unnecessary, or poisonous, we are best off without it.



« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 05:23:54 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #235 on: September 06, 2010, 05:32:11 PM »
[edit] Premature post, sorry.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 05:32:43 PM by bogdan »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #236 on: September 06, 2010, 06:07:55 PM »

2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:    

 Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:    


16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,    

17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 RSV)    


That's a non sequitur argument, since your conclusion that all necessary oral tradition now exists in the Bible does not follow at all from your premise that God wrote the Bible that we may be fully equipped.  The fact that God inspired the writing of the Scriptures that we may be fully equipped does not preclude other forms of divine revelation that God made to us for the same purpose.

No, it follows, Paul says the Bible completely equips, therefore it does.

BUT this is the second time (or more) you inferred I say this excludes other forms of divine revelation.

I don't say that at all.

Its always possible God grant a vision, dream, or send an angel.

What I say is I test anything outside of scripture, by scripture. So even if I had a vision, and discovered it contradicted the Bible, I would reject the vision.

That's what "sola scriptura" means, not that we deny tradition or any teaching outside of the Bible as being true or potentially helpful.

Sola scriptura means scripture alone is the undisputed infallible word of God, everything else has less authority, so when these conflict, scripture is accepted and the other rejected.


I do argue, as God makes me complete for every good work, via scripture, I do not need church traditions to be complete. Perhaps that is what you meant


Regarding that, I make the following argument against both Catholic and Orthodox tradition:

As both God and Paul say scripture is able to make wise EIS "into" salvation and that scripture completely equips for every good work, which necessarily includes the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others...


To have tradition equal to Scripure in authority is either superfluous or pernicious.


IF Tradition agrees with Scripture, its superfluous.
If Tradition disagrees with Scripture, its pernicious.

As Tradition must either agree or disagree with scripture, Tradition is either superfluous or pernicious.

Therefore Tradition is either unnecessary, or poisonous, we are best off without it.





No,it is the Tradition of Persson that is superfluous,a tradition that was derived from His understanding of what scripture says to him personally,please go somewhere else with your heresy!!

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #237 on: September 06, 2010, 06:08:09 PM »

2)All necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible:    

 Paul wrote about A.D. 67, before the last Bible Book was written, that scripture THEN contained all necessary to be complete, equipped for every good work. In vs. 17 He says this is why God wrote the Bible, to fully equip men of God for every good work, such as, for example, knowing true doctrine so one can teach it faithfully to others:    


16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,    

17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 RSV)    


That's a non sequitur argument, since your conclusion that all necessary oral tradition now exists in the Bible does not follow at all from your premise that God wrote the Bible that we may be fully equipped.  The fact that God inspired the writing of the Scriptures that we may be fully equipped does not preclude other forms of divine revelation that God made to us for the same purpose.

No, it follows, Paul says the Bible completely equips, therefore it does.

BUT this is the second time (or more) you inferred I say this excludes other forms of divine revelation.
No.  I responded only to your explicit assertion that all necessary oral tradition exists today in the Bible.  This DOES NOT follow from your statement of the Bible's purpose.

I don't say that at all.

Its always possible God grant a vision, dream, or send an angel.

What I say is I test anything outside of scripture, by scripture. So even if I had a vision, and discovered it contradicted the Bible, I would reject the vision.
That we do also, for we too believe that Tradition cannot contradict the Scriptures.  Open contradiction of the Scriptures, however, is not the same as absence from the Scriptures.

That's what "sola scriptura" means, not that we deny tradition or any teaching outside of the Bible as being true or potentially helpful.

Sola scriptura means scripture alone is the undisputed infallible word of God, everything else has less authority, so when these conflict, scripture is accepted and the other rejected.
But that's not what you're arguing here.  You argue as if absence from the Scriptures and contradiction of the Scriptures are one and the same thing.  As I stated above, they are not.  Something isn't to be rejected merely because it's not found in the Scriptures, yet that's what you do and what you counsel us to do.

I do argue, as God makes me complete for every good work, via scripture, I do not need church traditions to be complete. Perhaps that is what you meant
What we are saying is that Scripture is sufficient to make us complete for every good work, but that the Scriptures need to be interpreted properly to be effective.  It seems that you actually agree with this, since you've been working so hard to present to us what you believe to be the correct interpretation of Scripture.  If Scripture alone was sufficient, why would you deem it so important to interpret the Scriptures for us?  You see, even you believe that the Scriptures need proper interpretation to be effective in equipping us for good works.  You just don't believe that the Church is qualified to give us this proper interpretation, so you substitute your own in its place.

Regarding that, I make the following argument against both Catholic and Orthodox tradition:

As both God and Paul say scripture is able to make wise EIS "into" salvation and that scripture completely equips for every good work, which necessarily includes the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others...


To have tradition equal to Scripure in authority is either superfluous or pernicious.
I've got news for you, Alfred.  The Orthodox don't elevate Tradition to the level of authority only Scripture has for us.  I can't speak for Catholics, since I never was one, but I can safely say that for the Orthodox, Scripture is part of Tradition, yet Scripture is supremely authoritative within Tradition.  Tradition flows forth from Scripture, returns to Scripture, and cannot be separated from Scripture.  Even so, Tradition is necessary for guiding us into a proper interpretation of the Scriptures.  Without the guidance of Tradition, one cannot be sure that his interpretation of Scripture is correct.

IF Tradition agrees with Scripture, its superfluous.
Again, Tradition is not something separate from Scripture that we oppose to Scripture.  Rather, as our own theologian Vladimir Lossky once said, Tradition is the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church.  Of this life of the Holy Spirit in the Church, the Scriptures are the supremely authoritative product and guide.  Nothing can contradict the Scriptures without it also contradicting Tradition, since contradiction of Scripture IS a contradiction of Tradition.

If Tradition disagrees with Scripture, its pernicious.

As Tradition must either agree or disagree with scripture, Tradition is either superfluous or pernicious.

Therefore Tradition is either unnecessary, or poisonous, we are best off without it.

You know what, Alfred?  You make the fundamental Protestant (and Roman Catholic, in the sense that this relation of Scripture to Tradition is also a bone of contention between Orthodox and Catholics) mistake of seeing Scripture and Tradition as two different bodies of knowledge, one of which is necessary and the other of which is totally unnecessary and/or even opposed to the one.  As I've said before, this is simply not the case for the Orthodox, which makes your arguments into a bit of a straw man.  To us, Scripture and Tradition are merely different ways of speaking about the same thing:  God's revelation of Himself to man.  Scripture is Tradition and the chief authority therein, and Tradition is Scripture properly interpreted.  Attack Tradition, and you attack the very foundation of your Scriptures, thus rendering Scripture meaningless.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 06:18:05 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #238 on: September 06, 2010, 06:08:25 PM »
Alfred, I say this in love, but you have once again demonstrated that you don't understand how we view the relationship between Scripture and Tradition. (You also don't seem to quite understand what Tradition even is.)

They are not two separate entities that we judge against each other. Rather, the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other. But Tradition cannot be superfluous beside Scripture, because Scripture is a part of Tradition. If Tradition is superfluous, then Scripture, which is under the umbrella of Tradition, is too. In other words, Scripture does not sit beside Tradition. Scripture is a type of Tradition (the most important type, in fact), besides Iconography, Liturgy, the Fathers, etc.

What does that mean? It means that if some practice or teaching of the Church contradicts any part of Tradition, including Scripture, that practice or teaching cannot itself become part of Tradition. Tradition is self-regulating. If something doesn't belong, it quite naturally falls away.

Tradition is the entire life of the Church in all places and times. Therefore everything, including scripture, falls under the auspices of Tradition. You can't call Tradition superfluous if Tradition is everything.

I suppose if you wanted to draw an analogy, you could say Tradition is to Essence as Scripture, Icons, the Fathers, etc are to Energies.

And you present a false dilemma. On those same grounds, having four Gospels is superfluous because most of the stories are exactly the same. (And they disagree on some details, so clearly some of the gospels are false.) However, we say the four Gospels are necessary because their similarity proves they are all true. If there was only one Gospel, we wouldn't know if it was true or not. Anyone can write a book that says anything, but when you have four independent books that agree, you establish validity.

That is what I have been trying to say about interpretation. Anyone can say the Bible says anything. What proves its validity is when the entire Church comes to the same conclusion. When it's just Alfred Persson, that's meaningless. When it's the whole Church, and all of Tradition (ie, the Scriptures, the Fathers, the Hymns, the Icons, everything), that indicates something is true.

All these facets of Tradition, among other things, create a giant circuit of checks and balances that protects the ancient truth from being corrupted by every John Q who has a new take on what the Bible means. That is impossible in the world of Sola Scriptura, because every man, woman, and child thinks it says something different—and has the exegesis to prove it.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 06:16:03 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #239 on: September 07, 2010, 03:49:05 AM »
^
1. Alfred, you have not really offered evidence for you position. You have simply asserted your postion again.
2. Are you saying that there was a time when Sola Scriptura was not true, but then became true? So I guess you do not agree with the bible when it says that the faith was "once and for all delivered unto the saints," because you allow for a change in doctrine.


Sola scriptura (Only Scripture) is sola verbum dei today (only word of God):

 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
 28 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!"
 29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
 (Act 5:27-29 NKJ)

The word of man is not equal to the word of God = sola verbum dei.

Peter was applying the teaching of Christ.

 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
 3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
 (Mat 23:2-3 NKJ)

In ancient times books were too expensive for most to own, so they learned God's Word via the synagogue. But its teachers were often hypocrites who didn't follow it themselves. Christ said the authority of the word of God remains undiminished by their hypocrisy = sola verbum dei or sola scriptura.

Hence our LORD objected to following tradition against the Word of God:

 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition (Mar 7:13 NKJ)

Sola Verbum Dei therefore = sola scriptura when the Word of God exists only in Scripture.

Only during that brief period before the word of God becomes scripture, do we practice sola verbum dei by obeying scripture + tradition:

 13 ...word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Th 2:13 NKJ)

 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

But that period ended when apostolic preaching was captured in these Bible books and those written after Paul said this.


As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".


Sola Verbum Dei. It is apostolic doctrine the word of God came TO the church,  not THROUGH it:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

So we who belong to The Way, who are careful followers of genuine apostolic traditions, reject equating the word of man with Word of God, only the Word of God has supreme authority over us.

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:


"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)


« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 03:58:29 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline DennyB

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #240 on: September 07, 2010, 05:06:03 AM »
^
1. Alfred, you have not really offered evidence for you position. You have simply asserted your postion again.
2. Are you saying that there was a time when Sola Scriptura was not true, but then became true? So I guess you do not agree with the bible when it says that the faith was "once and for all delivered unto the saints," because you allow for a change in doctrine.


Sola scriptura (Only Scripture) is sola verbum dei today (only word of God):

 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
 28 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!"
 29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
 (Act 5:27-29 NKJ)

The word of man is not equal to the word of God = sola verbum dei.

Peter was applying the teaching of Christ.

 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
 3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
 (Mat 23:2-3 NKJ)

In ancient times books were too expensive for most to own, so they learned God's Word via the synagogue. But its teachers were often hypocrites who didn't follow it themselves. Christ said the authority of the word of God remains undiminished by their hypocrisy = sola verbum dei or sola scriptura.

Hence our LORD objected to following tradition against the Word of God:

 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition (Mar 7:13 NKJ)

Sola Verbum Dei therefore = sola scriptura when the Word of God exists only in Scripture.

Only during that brief period before the word of God becomes scripture, do we practice sola verbum dei by obeying scripture + tradition:

 13 ...word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Th 2:13 NKJ)

 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

But that period ended when apostolic preaching was captured in these Bible books and those written after Paul said this.


As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".


Sola Verbum Dei. It is apostolic doctrine the word of God came TO the church,  not THROUGH it:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

So we who belong to The Way, who are careful followers of genuine apostolic traditions, reject equating the word of man with Word of God, only the Word of God has supreme authority over us.

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:


"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)




It is arrogant of you to think that your understanding of Scripture is the Word of God,and our understanding is not!! You rely on "Knowledge and Reason" to arrive at your conclusions,Orthodoxy relies on "the Faith once delivered". You expect us to believe that someone who is almost 2000 years removed from those who actually experienced This Faith,and preserved it through the centuries,to come along and tell us different,not hardly!

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #241 on: September 07, 2010, 06:50:10 AM »

Sola Verbum Dei therefore = sola scriptura when the Word of God exists only in Scripture.

Only during that brief period before the word of God becomes scripture, do we practice sola verbum dei by obeying scripture + tradition:

 13 ...word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Th 2:13 NKJ)

 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

But that period ended when apostolic preaching was captured in these Bible books and those written after Paul said this.


As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".

How sad that your God is confined to the pages of a book.

BTW, if "sola verbum dei" is supposed to be Latin, it is grammatically nonsensical. Is this an expression invented by people like you to describe beliefs invented by people like you?

Offline DennyB

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #242 on: September 07, 2010, 12:40:12 PM »

Sola Verbum Dei therefore = sola scriptura when the Word of God exists only in Scripture.

Only during that brief period before the word of God becomes scripture, do we practice sola verbum dei by obeying scripture + tradition:

 13 ...word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Th 2:13 NKJ)

 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

But that period ended when apostolic preaching was captured in these Bible books and those written after Paul said this.


As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".

How sad that your God is confined to the pages of a book.

BTW, if "sola verbum dei" is supposed to be Latin, it is grammatically nonsensical. Is this an expression invented by people like you to describe beliefs invented by people like you?

These are people with a Latin/Legalistic mindset,I would guess that the Reformers used Latin terms to describe their innovations,to some how "validate" their theology saying that it is the Word of God!! As if God favored the Latins over the Greeks!!

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #243 on: September 07, 2010, 01:26:07 PM »

BTW, if "sola verbum dei" is supposed to be Latin, it is grammatically nonsensical. Is this an expression invented by people like you to describe beliefs invented by people like you?

These are people with a Latin/Legalistic mindset,I would guess that the Reformers used Latin terms to describe their innovations,to some how "validate" their theology saying that it is the Word of God!! As if God favored the Latins over the Greeks!!
I fully agree with you on this point. However, I'm still expecting Alfred to explain this term - both syntactically and historically -  which he has introduced into the discussion.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #244 on: September 07, 2010, 01:35:41 PM »
^
1. Alfred, you have not really offered evidence for you position. You have simply asserted your postion again.
2. Are you saying that there was a time when Sola Scriptura was not true, but then became true? So I guess you do not agree with the bible when it says that the faith was "once and for all delivered unto the saints," because you allow for a change in doctrine.


Sola scriptura (Only Scripture) is sola verbum dei today (only word of God):


Actually, Mr Persson, the only Word of God is a Man who was born approximately 2,000 years ago.  Scripture gives us prophecy about this Man (the Old Testament) and recordings of the teaching of Him and His disciples.  It contains the words of God, but is not the Word of God.

Quote
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
 28 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!"
 29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
 (Act 5:27-29 NKJ)

The word of man is not equal to the word of God = sola verbum dei.

Peter was applying the teaching of Christ.

And the day the Orthodox Church stops proclaiming the teachings of Christ (repent, be baptized, eat of His Flesh and drink of His Blood, go and sin no more, etc) you might have an argument.

Quote
In ancient times books were too expensive for most to own, so they learned God's Word via the synagogue. But its teachers were often hypocrites who didn't follow it themselves. Christ said the authority of the word of God remains undiminished by their hypocrisy = sola verbum dei or sola scriptura.

Anachronistic.  The main form of Jewish education for their children was by the reading and copying from the books of Scripture.  Even the "uneducated" fishermen were on intimate terms with these teachings (it was the legalistic Talmud and pagan philosophy which they did not know).

Quote
Hence our LORD objected to following tradition against the Word of God:

 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition (Mar 7:13 NKJ)

Yes, the Jews had elevated their man-made tradition over and above the commandments of God, so that if a man designated part of his wealth "Corban" he was absolved of the commandment to honor one's father and mother.  The Orthodox Tradition is not man-made (that is not to say that there aren't certain traditions that have accrued to certain local churches over the years, but these are not the rule of faith) but inspired by the Holy Spirit.  You know, like the Bible.

Quote
As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".

Again, the Word of God is our Lord Jesus Christ, not a few sayings and actions the Apostles were so wise as to write down for our benefit.  The Word of God is Alive and working even to this day, not ink written on dead trees.

Quote
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

So we who belong to The Way, who are careful followers of genuine apostolic traditions, reject equating the word of man with Word of God, only the Word of God has supreme authority over us.

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:

"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)

And we do.  "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me" (John 17: 20-21)

We hold fast to the teachings of our Lord, given to us by the Apostles, and the teachings of the Apostles and the Church (which is the Body of Christ) given us by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

We shun the man-made traditions of Arius, Marcion, Montanus, the Nicholatians, the Gnostics, Nestorius, Novatian, the Manicheans, Rome, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Scofield, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, and all who would elevate their private interpretation above the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and His Apostles.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #245 on: September 07, 2010, 03:05:15 PM »
We shun the man-made traditions of Arius, Marcion, Montanus, the Nicholatians, the Gnostics, Nestorius, Novatian, the Manicheans, Rome, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Scofield, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, and all who would elevate their private interpretation above the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and His Apostles.
Indeed! ;D  Sola scriptura is a man-made tradition.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #246 on: September 07, 2010, 03:26:37 PM »
^
1. Alfred, you have not really offered evidence for you position. You have simply asserted your postion again.
2. Are you saying that there was a time when Sola Scriptura was not true, but then became true? So I guess you do not agree with the bible when it says that the faith was "once and for all delivered unto the saints," because you allow for a change in doctrine.


Sola scriptura (Only Scripture) is sola verbum dei today (only word of God):

 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
 28 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!"
 29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
 (Act 5:27-29 NKJ)

The word of man is not equal to the word of God = sola verbum dei.

Peter was applying the teaching of Christ.

 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
 3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
 (Mat 23:2-3 NKJ)

In ancient times books were too expensive for most to own, so they learned God's Word via the synagogue. But its teachers were often hypocrites who didn't follow it themselves. Christ said the authority of the word of God remains undiminished by their hypocrisy = sola verbum dei or sola scriptura.

Hence our LORD objected to following tradition against the Word of God:

 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition (Mar 7:13 NKJ)

Sola Verbum Dei therefore = sola scriptura when the Word of God exists only in Scripture.

Only during that brief period before the word of God becomes scripture, do we practice sola verbum dei by obeying scripture + tradition:

 13 ...word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Th 2:13 NKJ)

 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

But that period ended when apostolic preaching was captured in these Bible books and those written after Paul said this.


As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".


Sola Verbum Dei. It is apostolic doctrine the word of God came TO the church,  not THROUGH it:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

So we who belong to The Way, who are careful followers of genuine apostolic traditions, reject equating the word of man with Word of God, only the Word of God has supreme authority over us.

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:


"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)




Alfred--How is it that I agree with all of your citations and not with all of your conclusions? Is this because I am deficient in some way? Is it because you are gifted by the Holt Spirit above all of your interlocutors? Take the last quotation you used, that of Saint Peter who said "We ought to obey God rather than men." I must tell you that I was going to use that very verse to rebut you, in the sense of "we must obey God rather than Alfred." So, what gives? Why are you so resistant to others' viewpoints? Why are you hurling Scripture to us as if you are Zeus hurling lightning bolts? Is it possible that you are possessed by pride, the favorite tool of the Evil One? I just wonder and I pray for you. If I have offended you, please forgive me. Kyrill

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #247 on: September 07, 2010, 05:41:56 PM »
Here's something to think about. When Paul wrote about how Scripture equips the man of God for every good work, the New Testament at that time was not even complete. Not unless you accept an NT without the Revelation!  :o The Ecumenical Council which finalized the canon of Scripture had yet to happen. So, the Scripture to which Paul refers is not only his own writings - we don't refer to his Epistles as the Gospel According to Paul - and by deduction he must be referring primarily to the Old Testament. (That's my guess.) 

What, then, does this do to the claims of Perssonism? From what I've read, Alfred seems to think that Paul's school of thought was that of a one-note televangelist. If Alfred took a time machine and dropped himself back into the actual world of St. Paul, I am sorry to say I think he would wind up very confused.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 05:45:21 PM by biro »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #248 on: September 07, 2010, 11:20:04 PM »
^
1. Alfred, you have not really offered evidence for you position. You have simply asserted your postion again.
2. Are you saying that there was a time when Sola Scriptura was not true, but then became true? So I guess you do not agree with the bible when it says that the faith was "once and for all delivered unto the saints," because you allow for a change in doctrine.


Sola scriptura (Only Scripture) is sola verbum dei today (only word of God):

 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
 28 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!"
 29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
 (Act 5:27-29 NKJ)

The word of man is not equal to the word of God = sola verbum dei.

Peter was applying the teaching of Christ.

 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
 3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
 (Mat 23:2-3 NKJ)

In ancient times books were too expensive for most to own, so they learned God's Word via the synagogue. But its teachers were often hypocrites who didn't follow it themselves. Christ said the authority of the word of God remains undiminished by their hypocrisy = sola verbum dei or sola scriptura.

Hence our LORD objected to following tradition against the Word of God:

 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition (Mar 7:13 NKJ)

Sola Verbum Dei therefore = sola scriptura when the Word of God exists only in Scripture.

Only during that brief period before the word of God becomes scripture, do we practice sola verbum dei by obeying scripture + tradition:

 13 ...word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Th 2:13 NKJ)

 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

But that period ended when apostolic preaching was captured in these Bible books and those written after Paul said this.


As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".


Sola Verbum Dei. It is apostolic doctrine the word of God came TO the church,  not THROUGH it:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

So we who belong to The Way, who are careful followers of genuine apostolic traditions, reject equating the word of man with Word of God, only the Word of God has supreme authority over us.

To all who would be king, who would have us apostatize from our LORD Jesus Christ and follow the word of man, We repeat verbatim apostle Peter's words to the magisteriuim of his time:


"We ought to obey God rather than men.  (Act 5:29 NKJ)




Alfred--How is it that I agree with all of your citations and not with all of your conclusions? Is this because I am deficient in some way? Is it because you are gifted by the Holt Spirit above all of your interlocutors? Take the last quotation you used, that of Saint Peter who said "We ought to obey God rather than men." I must tell you that I was going to use that very verse to rebut you, in the sense of "we must obey God rather than Alfred." So, what gives? Why are you so resistant to others' viewpoints? Why are you hurling Scripture to us as if you are Zeus hurling lightning bolts? Is it possible that you are possessed by pride, the favorite tool of the Evil One? I just wonder and I pray for you. If I have offended you, please forgive me. Kyrill

I'm a critical thinker and you aren't.

That is your choice, there are books that teach the science. amazon.com

Your application of Peter's words rests upon equivocation fallacy, it posits God as both God and the human authorities you want to take His place, as long as they aren't me.

Truth is conformity to fact. What conforms to scripture fact is God's truth.

I heed God's truth. When you do, then we will agree. It will be a blessed moment I'll mark on my calendar.




« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 11:21:58 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #249 on: September 07, 2010, 11:29:29 PM »
Here's something to think about. When Paul wrote about how Scripture equips the man of God for every good work, the New Testament at that time was not even complete. Not unless you accept an NT without the Revelation!  :o The Ecumenical Council which finalized the canon of Scripture had yet to happen. So, the Scripture to which Paul refers is not only his own writings - we don't refer to his Epistles as the Gospel According to Paul - and by deduction he must be referring primarily to the Old Testament. (That's my guess.)

What, then, does this do to the claims of Perssonism? From what I've read, Alfred seems to think that Paul's school of thought was that of a one-note televangelist. If Alfred took a time machine and dropped himself back into the actual world of St. Paul, I am sorry to say I think he would wind up very confused.

What it does is prove you didn't read my treatment of this verse, where I note scripture was likely just the Old Testament when Timothy was a child (vs. 15).

Therefore it strengthens Paul's statement scripture can make wise INTO (eis) salvation...make the man of God complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work, such as, the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others.

Why?

Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

"Hey, all who are thirsty, come to the water!
You who have no money, come!
Buy and eat!
Come! Buy wine and milk without money and without cost!
Why pay money for something that will not nourish you?
Why spend your hard-earned money on something that will not satisfy?
Listen carefully to me and eat what is nourishing! Enjoy fine food!
Pay attention and come to me!
Listen, so you can live!
Then I will make an unconditional covenantal promise to you, just like the reliable covenantal promises I made to David.
...

Indeed you will go out with joy; you will be led along in peace;
the mountains and hills will give a joyful shout before you, and all the trees in the field will clap their hands.
Evergreens will grow in place of thorn bushes, firs will grow in place of nettles;
they will be a monument to the LORD, a permanent reminder that will remain.
 (Isa 55:1-3, 12-13 NET)

 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 11:42:59 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #250 on: September 07, 2010, 11:48:34 PM »
We shun the man-made traditions of Arius, Marcion, Montanus, the Nicholatians, the Gnostics, Nestorius, Novatian, the Manicheans, Rome, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Scofield, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, and all who would elevate their private interpretation above the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and His Apostles.
Indeed! ;D  Sola scriptura is a man-made tradition.

Only if sola verbum dei is a man made tradition, and it is not:

NKJ  Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. (Act 5:29 NKJ)

As it is apostolic tradition the Word of God came to the church, not through it:

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

Sola verbum dei is today sola scriptura.



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #251 on: September 07, 2010, 11:50:14 PM »
Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

That's at least the second time you've said something like that. You may believe that, but we don't believe that in Orthodoxy. The Old Testament is a shadow, a type, of the New Testament. There is no salvation in the Old Testament by itself. The Old Testament is a bunch of worthless history apart from Christ.

The blood of the passover lamb saved the people because it was a type of Christ's blood. The same lamb had to be eaten by all the Israelites because it was a type of the Eucharist. Moses' golden serpent saved the people because it was a type of the Cross. The scapegoat took away the nation's sins because it was a type of Christ.

The examples are endless. The point is, without the New Testament, the Old Testament is nothing. It's a collection of stories and moralisms that you can find in most any ancient culture.

Everyone who lived before Christ, from the worshippers of Ba'al to King David, were subject to death. No matter how pious a Jew you were, no matter how perfectly you followed the Law, you still died and went to Hades. But when Christ Himself went down into Hades and trampled down Death, mankind was freed and our situation changed utterly.

That is why it is utter rubbish to say the OT was already salvific, and the NT is icing on the cake. No, there is no salvation in the OT alone.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 11:52:39 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #252 on: September 07, 2010, 11:52:35 PM »

Sola Verbum Dei therefore = sola scriptura when the Word of God exists only in Scripture.

Only during that brief period before the word of God becomes scripture, do we practice sola verbum dei by obeying scripture + tradition:

 13 ...word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,(1Th 2:13 NKJ)

 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2Th 2:15 NKJ)

But that period ended when apostolic preaching was captured in these Bible books and those written after Paul said this.


As the Word of God today exists only in scripture, "sola scriptura".

How sad that your God is confined to the pages of a book.

BTW, if "sola verbum dei" is supposed to be Latin, it is grammatically nonsensical. Is this an expression invented by people like you to describe beliefs invented by people like you?

These are people with a Latin/Legalistic mindset,I would guess that the Reformers used Latin terms to describe their innovations,to some how "validate" their theology saying that it is the Word of God!! As if God favored the Latins over the Greeks!!

Icons are an innovation...consensus of the fathers an innovation...heeding the Word of God, a command of God the Eternal Son:

 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
 (Mat 23:2-3 KJV)

We are to obey God's Word even when its teachers are hypocrites, the hypocrisy of men does not diminish the authority of God's word that is taught through them.

=Sola verbum dei

Back then, scripture was heard through public reading at the synagogue...before the printing press, scripture was too expensive and rare for private copies.



« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 11:54:42 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #253 on: September 07, 2010, 11:52:58 PM »
Here's something to think about. When Paul wrote about how Scripture equips the man of God for every good work, the New Testament at that time was not even complete. Not unless you accept an NT without the Revelation!  :o The Ecumenical Council which finalized the canon of Scripture had yet to happen. So, the Scripture to which Paul refers is not only his own writings - we don't refer to his Epistles as the Gospel According to Paul - and by deduction he must be referring primarily to the Old Testament. (That's my guess.)

What, then, does this do to the claims of Perssonism? From what I've read, Alfred seems to think that Paul's school of thought was that of a one-note televangelist. If Alfred took a time machine and dropped himself back into the actual world of St. Paul, I am sorry to say I think he would wind up very confused.

What it does is prove you didn't read my treatment of this verse, where I note scripture was likely just the Old Testament when Timothy was a child (vs. 15).

Therefore it strengthens Paul's statement scripture can make wise INTO (eis) salvation...make the man of God complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work, such as, the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others.

Why?

Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

"Hey, all who are thirsty, come to the water!
You who have no money, come!
Buy and eat!
Come! Buy wine and milk without money and without cost!
(Isa 55:1 NET)
Well, well. Mr. Persson, you're still here.  I've been too busy in interesting threads that I hadn't noticed yorr postings.

If the OT could do it, then we would have no use for the NT, and can dispense with it like the Jews have. Eating after you have had your fill is gluttony, a deadly sin.

P.E.T.A. can argue on the basis of a vegetarian (or better, vegan) diet that all vegetabbles are given by providence of God and are profitable for nurishment for antioxidants for nutrition for fitness in cardiovascular health. But their diet, like your argument, has no meat to it.  Meat is good for nutrition as well.  Vegetarian diets tend to be enemic, like sola scriptura theologies (plural).

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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #254 on: September 07, 2010, 11:57:22 PM »
Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

That's at least the second time you've said something like that. You may believe that, but we don't believe that in Orthodoxy. The Old Testament is a shadow, a type, of the New Testament. There is no salvation in the Old Testament by itself. The Old Testament is a bunch of worthless history apart from Christ.

The blood of the passover lamb saved the people because it was a type of Christ's blood. The same lamb had to be eaten by all the Israelites because it was a type of the Eucharist. Moses' golden serpent saved the people because it was a type of the Cross. The scapegoat took away the nation's sins because it was a type of Christ.

The examples are endless. The point is, without the New Testament, the Old Testament is nothing. It's a collection of stories and moralisms that you can find in most any ancient culture.

Everyone who lived before Christ, from the worshippers of Ba'al to King David, were subject to death. No matter how pious a Jew you were, no matter how perfectly you followed the Law, you still died and went to Hades. But when Christ Himself went down into Hades and trampled down Death, mankind was freed and our situation changed utterly.

That is why it is utter rubbish to say the OT was already salvific, and the NT is icing on the cake. No, there is no salvation in the OT alone.

Orthodoxy is wrong, the apostle Paul is right.

We can see the OT alone is able to make wise unto salvation, the proposition has been proved in infallible divine history:

 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
 (Act 17:11-12 KJV)

These Bereans confirmed the gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, they believed and were saved.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 11:59:52 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #255 on: September 08, 2010, 12:02:32 AM »
Here's something to think about. When Paul wrote about how Scripture equips the man of God for every good work, the New Testament at that time was not even complete. Not unless you accept an NT without the Revelation!  :o The Ecumenical Council which finalized the canon of Scripture had yet to happen. So, the Scripture to which Paul refers is not only his own writings - we don't refer to his Epistles as the Gospel According to Paul - and by deduction he must be referring primarily to the Old Testament. (That's my guess.)

What, then, does this do to the claims of Perssonism? From what I've read, Alfred seems to think that Paul's school of thought was that of a one-note televangelist. If Alfred took a time machine and dropped himself back into the actual world of St. Paul, I am sorry to say I think he would wind up very confused.

You're back! I thought your icons may have ganged up on you.

The post right below yours, the case of the Bereans, proves you wrong. Enjoy



What it does is prove you didn't read my treatment of this verse, where I note scripture was likely just the Old Testament when Timothy was a child (vs. 15).

Therefore it strengthens Paul's statement scripture can make wise INTO (eis) salvation...make the man of God complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work, such as, the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others.

Why?

Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

"Hey, all who are thirsty, come to the water!
You who have no money, come!
Buy and eat!
Come! Buy wine and milk without money and without cost!
(Isa 55:1 NET)
Well, well. Mr. Persson, you're still here.  I've been too busy in interesting threads that I hadn't noticed yorr postings.

If the OT could do it, then we would have no use for the NT, and can dispense with it like the Jews have. Eating after you have had your fill is gluttony, a deadly sin.

P.E.T.A. can argue on the basis of a vegetarian (or better, vegan) diet that all vegetabbles are given by providence of God and are profitable for nurishment for antioxidants for nutrition for fitness in cardiovascular health. But their diet, like your argument, has no meat to it.  Meat is good for nutrition as well.  Vegetarian diets tend to be enemic, like sola scriptura theologies (plural).




You're back! I thought your icons may have ganged up on you.

The post right below yours, the case of the Bereans, proves you wrong. Enjoy
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 12:03:38 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #256 on: September 08, 2010, 12:03:49 AM »
Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

That's at least the second time you've said something like that. You may believe that, but we don't believe that in Orthodoxy. The Old Testament is a shadow, a type, of the New Testament. There is no salvation in the Old Testament by itself. The Old Testament is a bunch of worthless history apart from Christ.

The blood of the passover lamb saved the people because it was a type of Christ's blood. The same lamb had to be eaten by all the Israelites because it was a type of the Eucharist. Moses' golden serpent saved the people because it was a type of the Cross. The scapegoat took away the nation's sins because it was a type of Christ.

The examples are endless. The point is, without the New Testament, the Old Testament is nothing. It's a collection of stories and moralisms that you can find in most any ancient culture.

Everyone who lived before Christ, from the worshippers of Ba'al to King David, were subject to death. No matter how pious a Jew you were, no matter how perfectly you followed the Law, you still died and went to Hades. But when Christ Himself went down into Hades and trampled down Death, mankind was freed and our situation changed utterly.

That is why it is utter rubbish to say the OT was already salvific, and the NT is icing on the cake. No, there is no salvation in the OT alone.

Orthodoxy is wrong, the apostle Paul is right.

We can see the OT alone is able to make wise unto salvation, the proposition has been proved in infallible divine history:

 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
 (Act 17:11-12 KJV)

These Bereans confirmed the gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, they believed and were saved.



They searched the scriptures to verify that the prophecies had indeed been made as they had been told (and I noted a few such prophecies in my previous post). That's called verification of claims. The text you cite doesn't say they gained salvation by reading the Old Testament. You are inferring that because that is your a priori belief.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #257 on: September 08, 2010, 12:05:05 AM »
We shun the man-made traditions of Arius, Marcion, Montanus, the Nicholatians, the Gnostics, Nestorius, Novatian, the Manicheans, Rome, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Scofield, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, and all who would elevate their private interpretation above the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and His Apostles.
Indeed! ;D  Sola scriptura is a man-made tradition.

Only if sola verbum dei is a man made tradition, and it is not:

NKJ  Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. (Act 5:29 NKJ)

What verse did they cite?

Quote
As it is apostolic tradition the Word of God came to the church, not through it:

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)[/quote]

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it! 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Quote
Sola verbum dei is today sola scriptura.

And a modern heresy, with no Apostolic roots. Rather shallow roots for a weed.
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #258 on: September 08, 2010, 12:08:32 AM »
We shun the man-made traditions of Arius, Marcion, Montanus, the Nicholatians, the Gnostics, Nestorius, Novatian, the Manicheans, Rome, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Scofield, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, and all who would elevate their private interpretation above the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and His Apostles.
Indeed! ;D  Sola scriptura is a man-made tradition.

Only if sola verbum dei is a man made tradition, and it is not:

NKJ  Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. (Act 5:29 NKJ)

As it is apostolic tradition the Word of God came to the church, not through it:

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

Sola verbum dei is today sola scriptura.

No, Sola Verbum Dei is Orthodox Christianity, because we worship the Word of God alone. Sola Scriptura is Bible-worship.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #259 on: September 08, 2010, 12:11:50 AM »
Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

That's at least the second time you've said something like that. You may believe that, but we don't believe that in Orthodoxy. The Old Testament is a shadow, a type, of the New Testament. There is no salvation in the Old Testament by itself. The Old Testament is a bunch of worthless history apart from Christ.

The blood of the passover lamb saved the people because it was a type of Christ's blood. The same lamb had to be eaten by all the Israelites because it was a type of the Eucharist. Moses' golden serpent saved the people because it was a type of the Cross. The scapegoat took away the nation's sins because it was a type of Christ.

The examples are endless. The point is, without the New Testament, the Old Testament is nothing. It's a collection of stories and moralisms that you can find in most any ancient culture.

Everyone who lived before Christ, from the worshippers of Ba'al to King David, were subject to death. No matter how pious a Jew you were, no matter how perfectly you followed the Law, you still died and went to Hades. But when Christ Himself went down into Hades and trampled down Death, mankind was freed and our situation changed utterly.

That is why it is utter rubbish to say the OT was already salvific, and the NT is icing on the cake. No, there is no salvation in the OT alone.

Orthodoxy is wrong, the apostle Paul is right.

We can see the OT alone is able to make wise unto salvation, the proposition has been proved in infallible divine history:

 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
 (Act 17:11-12 KJV)

These Bereans confirmed the gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, they believed and were saved.



They searched the scriptures to verify that the prophecies had indeed been made as they had been told (and I noted a few such prophecies in my previous post). That's called verification of claims. The text you cite doesn't say they gained salvation by reading the Old Testament. You are inferring that because that is your a priori belief.

That's the point, they were able to confirm the gospel of Christ is in the OT = able to make wise unto salvation, through faith in Christ Jesus.

That's precisely what Paul said, the Gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, and that evidently is what Orthodoxy denies.

Paul is right, Orthodoxy wrong.

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 KJV)

All Protestant Systematic Theologies, Strong, Thiessen (my favorite), Hodge, Chafer, Pannenberg, Geisler, Oden, Shedd, Berkouwer, will gladly point it out to you, if you doubt it.


Although a tangent, Gustav Oehler's Theology of the Old Testament is invaluable when studying the names of God, the divine Presence, and heavenly things of that nature.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 12:16:27 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #260 on: September 08, 2010, 12:13:27 AM »
By the way Alfred, you were struggling earlier with exactly how we understand the relationship between Tradition and Scripture. You seemed to present it as an either/or situation that had the two in conflict. I have attempted to demonstrate how we view their relationship with the following chart.

(Orthodox people: if this is incorrect, feel free to suggest how to improve it)

As you can see, all aspects of the Faith have a common source in Holy Tradition, thus they are never in conflict. The scriptures never contradict any other part of Tradition, because they have a common source.

A good tree cannot bear bad fruit. And we all agree the Scripture is good fruit, so all of Tradition must be good, of necessity.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 12:23:13 AM by bogdan »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #261 on: September 08, 2010, 12:13:44 AM »
Here's something to think about. When Paul wrote about how Scripture equips the man of God for every good work, the New Testament at that time was not even complete. Not unless you accept an NT without the Revelation!  :o The Ecumenical Council which finalized the canon of Scripture had yet to happen. So, the Scripture to which Paul refers is not only his own writings - we don't refer to his Epistles as the Gospel According to Paul - and by deduction he must be referring primarily to the Old Testament. (That's my guess.)

What, then, does this do to the claims of Perssonism? From what I've read, Alfred seems to think that Paul's school of thought was that of a one-note televangelist. If Alfred took a time machine and dropped himself back into the actual world of St. Paul, I am sorry to say I think he would wind up very confused.

You're back! I thought your icons may have ganged up on you.

The post right below yours, the case of the Bereans, proves you wrong. Enjoy



What it does is prove you didn't read my treatment of this verse, where I note scripture was likely just the Old Testament when Timothy was a child (vs. 15).

Therefore it strengthens Paul's statement scripture can make wise INTO (eis) salvation...make the man of God complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work, such as, the good work of teaching the Christian faith to others.

Why?

Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

"Hey, all who are thirsty, come to the water!
You who have no money, come!
Buy and eat!
Come! Buy wine and milk without money and without cost!
(Isa 55:1 NET)
Well, well. Mr. Persson, you're still here.  I've been too busy in interesting threads that I hadn't noticed yorr postings.

If the OT could do it, then we would have no use for the NT, and can dispense with it like the Jews have. Eating after you have had your fill is gluttony, a deadly sin.

P.E.T.A. can argue on the basis of a vegetarian (or better, vegan) diet that all vegetabbles are given by providence of God and are profitable for nurishment for antioxidants for nutrition for fitness in cardiovascular health. But their diet, like your argument, has no meat to it.  Meat is good for nutrition as well.  Vegetarian diets tend to be enemic, like sola scriptura theologies (plural).




You're back! I thought your icons may have ganged up on you.

Why would they do that. I'm no longer an iconoclast.  The Holy Icons were here long before I came along (almost two thousand years in fact).  They will be standing long after I am gone, until their Divine Prototype returns.

You started Personism, and you are in danger of taking it to your grave.  God grant you bury it before then.

Quote
The post right below yours, the case of the Bereans, proves you wrong. Enjoy

We've dealt with the Bereans before.
As for their exegesis, they relied upon God the Holy Spirit and the teachers He provided,
through the hands of the Apostles, and those whom they consecrated, who continued their preaching.

and of course the word of the founding apostles and prophets:

26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.
 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 (1Co 14:26-33 NKJ)

I had thought of starting a thread on Perssonism's teaching on sola scriptura, but decided the thread "Sola Scriptura - A Diversion From the True Word of God" would be an appropriate place to taste test, to spew out as poison, Perssonism's flavor of Sola Scriptura.

The episcopacy of the Orthodox Church, keeping which was commtted to it by the Holy Spirit, stirred up the gift of prophecy which it received by the laying on of the hands of the Apostles (and any Orthodox bishop today, by the ontological whole of the episcopate and Apostolic succession, is only an arm's length away from the Apostles), determined the canon of Scripture and its interpretation.

In fact, so great is the episcopacy, the presbyters of Acts 15, that St. Peter, introduding himself as "an [note, btw: "a," not "the"] Apostle of Jesus Christ," nonetheless identifies himself as a "fellow presbyter" when he invokes himself as a witness of Christ and a partaker of His glory, to exhort his fellow presbyters, whom he identifies as the bishops (5:1-2), and the Apostle John, the disciple whom Christ loved, doesn't give his autority to his second and third epistles as neither the Disciple nor Apostle, but as "the presbyter."

"He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." Luke 10:16  You cannot have the Church's book without the Church.

Of course, you have the free will to preach or accept another Gospel.
Much more at the link to the quote.

This shows they could judge doctrine by the scripture:

NKJ  Acts 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
 (Act 17:11 NKJ)
Yes. Searching the LXX, no doubt (cf. Acts 17:12 "Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks"). That's what the Jews in Greece, which the Bereans, as Acts 17:10 tells us, were: "Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews." So your citation tells us about 1st century synagogue practice, but not directly the early Church practice.

This is, however, one of the few areas where the sola scriptura folk stumble upon the Truth. Hence Schaff's summary has validity:
I got other examples where the NT doesn't follow that rule, therefore the rule isn't "apostolic".

on the Apostolic rule by those who know what they are talking about.
some of my thoughts on the matter, and related issues
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19095.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19811.0.html

More importantly, the statements by those who know the meaning of "apostolic":
St. Ignatius:
.....

The Protestant Schaff summarizes:
Quote
And what had become of the disciples who were the first-fruits of the apostolic ministry? St. Paul had said, “The same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” How was this injunction realized? St. Peter’s touching words come to mind, “I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.” Was this endeavour successfully carried out? To these natural and pious inquiries, the Apostolic Fathers, though we have a few specimens only of their fidelity, give an emphatic reply. If the cold-hearted and critical find no charm in the simple, childlike faith which they exhibit, ennobled though it be by heroic devotion to the Master, we need not marvel. Such would probably object: “They teach me nothing; I do not relish their multiplied citations from Scripture.” The answer is, “If you are familiar with Scripture, you owe it largely to these primitive witnesses to its Canon and its spirit. By their testimony we detect what is spurious, and we identify what is real. Is it nothing to find that your Bible is their Bible, your faith their faith, your Saviour their Saviour, your God their God?” Let us reflect also, that, when copies of the entire Scriptures were rare and costly, these citations were “words fitly spoken,—apples of gold in pictures of silver.” We are taught by them also that they obeyed the apostle’s precept, “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing,” etc. Thus they reflect the apostolic care that men should be raised up able to teach others also.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.i.ii.html
And if the Bereans only needed to search the OT, then they (and we) have no neef of the NT any more than the modern Jews do.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #262 on: September 08, 2010, 12:20:05 AM »
Because if the OT alone could do it, how much more can the OT + the NT fully equip?

As the next question I'm usually asked is: "if God added the NT, doesn't that prove God who wrote through Paul wrong, the OT cannot fully equip?"

I will answer, "No! Just as your being offered food at the end of the feast doesn't prove you were starving to death."

That's at least the second time you've said something like that. You may believe that, but we don't believe that in Orthodoxy. The Old Testament is a shadow, a type, of the New Testament. There is no salvation in the Old Testament by itself. The Old Testament is a bunch of worthless history apart from Christ.

The blood of the passover lamb saved the people because it was a type of Christ's blood. The same lamb had to be eaten by all the Israelites because it was a type of the Eucharist. Moses' golden serpent saved the people because it was a type of the Cross. The scapegoat took away the nation's sins because it was a type of Christ.

The examples are endless. The point is, without the New Testament, the Old Testament is nothing. It's a collection of stories and moralisms that you can find in most any ancient culture.

Everyone who lived before Christ, from the worshippers of Ba'al to King David, were subject to death. No matter how pious a Jew you were, no matter how perfectly you followed the Law, you still died and went to Hades. But when Christ Himself went down into Hades and trampled down Death, mankind was freed and our situation changed utterly.

That is why it is utter rubbish to say the OT was already salvific, and the NT is icing on the cake. No, there is no salvation in the OT alone.

Orthodoxy is wrong, the apostle Paul is right.

We can see the OT alone is able to make wise unto salvation, the proposition has been proved in infallible divine history:

 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
 (Act 17:11-12 KJV)

These Bereans confirmed the gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, they believed and were saved.



They searched the scriptures to verify that the prophecies had indeed been made as they had been told (and I noted a few such prophecies in my previous post). That's called verification of claims. The text you cite doesn't say they gained salvation by reading the Old Testament. You are inferring that because that is your a priori belief.

That's the point, they were able to confirm the gospel of Christ is in the OT = able to make wise unto salvation, through faith in Christ Jesus.

That's precisely what Paul said, the Gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, and that evidently is what Orthodoxy denies.

Paul is right, Orthodoxy wrong.

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 KJV)

All Protestant Systematic Theologies, Strong, Thiessen (my favorite), Hodge, Chafer, Pannenberg, Geisler, Oden, Shedd, Berkouwer, will gladly point it out to you, if you doubt it.


No, that's incorrect. That's not what I said at all. They confirmed that the prophecies were accurate and Jesus Christ was indeed the promised one. There are types of the Gospel in the OT, but they are only types. Types are worthless if there is nothing for them to reference. You said the OT was salvific unto itself ("the OT alone could do it"). That is flatly untrue.

And I don't care how many Protestant systematic theologies agree with you, because they are not of the Church, but rather the mere reasonings and conjectures of men. Besides, all of this stuff was figured out long before any of those men lived.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #263 on: September 08, 2010, 12:22:29 AM »
By the way Alfred, you were struggling earlier with exactly how we understand the relationship between Tradition and Scripture. You seemed to present it as an either/or situation that had the two in conflict. I have attempted to demonstrate how we view their relationship with the following chart.

(Orthodox people: if this is incorrect, feel free to suggest how to improve it)

Quaking in your boots you might misstate it, eh?

Ah, being free in Christ is much preferred.

I understand the concept "its all about the church", unfortunately for that theory, Paul contradicted it when he said the Word of God is not channeled through the church:


 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? (1Co 14:36 KJV)

In context this means Paul rejected the spiritual phenomena, the tongues prophecy and knowledge occurring among the Corinthians, as being "the word of God."

That rules out Catholic "living tradition," and whatever you call its counterpart in Orthodoxy, as being "the word of God."

The word of God was once delivered to the church, there aren't multiple deliveries:

 3 ...the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jud 1:3 KJV)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #264 on: September 08, 2010, 12:25:09 AM »
Now Alred, that's just rude. No one here is "quaking in their boots" - just being careful to give you the correct information.

Be nice and enjoy the nice cooler weather! :D
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #265 on: September 08, 2010, 12:26:21 AM »
Orthodoxy is wrong, the apostle Paul is right.

The Apostle Paul, teaching Orthodoxy, is right.

Orthodoxy, teaching the Apostle Paul, is right.

Persson, teaching Perssonism, is wrong.

Quote
We can see the OT alone is able to make wise unto salvation,

Then put away your NT and get thee to a mohel. Ouch.


 
Quote
the proposition has been proved in infallible divine history:

 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
 (Act 17:11-12 KJV)

These Bereans confirmed the gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, they believed and were saved.

How can we trust them?  They went to the synagogue. Where do you find the synagogue in your OT?

Quote
That's the point, they were able to confirm the gospel of Christ is in the OT = able to make wise unto salvation, through faith in Christ Jesus.

And the Magi who worshipped the stars were taught by the star to make them wise unto salvation and fall down in worship before Christ Jesus and His mother.

So, do you check your daily horoscope?

Quote
That's precisely what Paul said, the Gospel of Christ is in the Old Testament, and that evidently is what Orthodoxy denies.

So says the heretic who denies the OT of Christ's Church, and follows the Tanakh of the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes.

Quote
Paul is right, Orthodoxy wrong.

Orthodox Paul is right. Paul's Orthodoxy is right.

Persson's Perssonism is wrong.

Quote
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 KJV)

All Protestant Systematic Theologies, Strong, Thiessen (my favorite), Hodge, Chafer, Pannenberg, Geisler, Oden, Shedd, Berkouwer, will gladly point it out to you, if you doubt it.
What happened to your sola scriptura?

Systematic heresy is still heresy.
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A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #266 on: September 08, 2010, 12:27:25 AM »
By the way Alfred, you were struggling earlier with exactly how we understand the relationship between Tradition and Scripture. You seemed to present it as an either/or situation that had the two in conflict. I have attempted to demonstrate how we view their relationship with the following chart.

(Orthodox people: if this is incorrect, feel free to suggest how to improve it)

Quaking in your boots you might misstate it, eh?

No, I'm humble enough to realize that I am capable of making an error.

In context this means Paul rejected the spiritual phenomena, the tongues prophecy and knowledge occurring among the Corinthians, as being "the word of God."

That rules out Catholic "living tradition," and whatever you call its counterpart in Orthodoxy, as being "the word of God."

The word of God was once delivered to the church, there aren't multiple deliveries:

 3 ...the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jud 1:3 KJV)

The Word of God is a man, and we have never stated otherwise.

Why do you cite different translations in every post? Are you cherry-picking for the ones that best spin your point of view?

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #267 on: September 08, 2010, 12:30:12 AM »
Now Alred, that's just rude. No one here is "quaking in their boots" - just being careful to give you the correct information.

Be nice and enjoy the nice cooler weather! :D

He's just h-bent on proving Solomon right.

So don't bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you. But correct the wise, and they will love you. Proverbs 9:8.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #268 on: September 08, 2010, 01:35:32 AM »
We shun the man-made traditions of Arius, Marcion, Montanus, the Nicholatians, the Gnostics, Nestorius, Novatian, the Manicheans, Rome, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, Scofield, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, and all who would elevate their private interpretation above the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by our Lord and His Apostles.
Indeed! ;D  Sola scriptura is a man-made tradition.

Only if sola verbum dei is a man made tradition, and it is not:

NKJ  Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. (Act 5:29 NKJ)

As it is apostolic tradition the Word of God came to the church, not through it:

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

Sola verbum dei is today sola scriptura.




I see you've conveniently ignored the posts wherein bogdan and I define how the Orthodox understand Tradition (see Replies #237 & 238 above).  Until you address the content of those posts, I'm sorry there's nothing more we can really debate with you, since you will have shown your unwillingness to address anything other than the straw men of your own creation.  You need to confront what we really believe and not what you want, for the sake of your bluster, to think we believe.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 01:37:56 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #269 on: September 08, 2010, 07:26:30 AM »
Alfred, I say this in love, but you have once again demonstrated that you don't understand how we view the relationship between Scripture and Tradition. (You also don't seem to quite understand what Tradition even is.)

They are not two separate entities that we judge against each other. Rather, the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other. But Tradition cannot be superfluous beside Scripture, because Scripture is a part of Tradition. If Tradition is superfluous, then Scripture, which is under the umbrella of Tradition, is too. In other words, Scripture does not sit beside Tradition. Scripture is a type of Tradition (the most important type, in fact), besides Iconography, Liturgy, the Fathers, etc.

What does that mean? It means that if some practice or teaching of the Church contradicts any part of Tradition, including Scripture, that practice or teaching cannot itself become part of Tradition. Tradition is self-regulating. If something doesn't belong, it quite naturally falls away.

Tradition is the entire life of the Church in all places and times. Therefore everything, including scripture, falls under the auspices of Tradition. You can't call Tradition superfluous if Tradition is everything.

I suppose if you wanted to draw an analogy, you could say Tradition is to Essence as Scripture, Icons, the Fathers, etc are to Energies.

And you present a false dilemma. On those same grounds, having four Gospels is superfluous because most of the stories are exactly the same. (And they disagree on some details, so clearly some of the gospels are false.) However, we say the four Gospels are necessary because their similarity proves they are all true. If there was only one Gospel, we wouldn't know if it was true or not. Anyone can write a book that says anything, but when you have four independent books that agree, you establish validity.

That is what I have been trying to say about interpretation. Anyone can say the Bible says anything. What proves its validity is when the entire Church comes to the same conclusion. When it's just Alfred Persson, that's meaningless. When it's the whole Church, and all of Tradition (ie, the Scriptures, the Fathers, the Hymns, the Icons, everything), that indicates something is true.

All these facets of Tradition, among other things, create a giant circuit of checks and balances that protects the ancient truth from being corrupted by every John Q who has a new take on what the Bible means. That is impossible in the world of Sola Scriptura, because every man, woman, and child thinks it says something different—and has the exegesis to prove it.

Your view of scripture contradicts the sufficiency of scripture, according to you, it does not fully equip without your interpretations:

...what need is there of Councils, when the Nicest is sufficient, as against the Arian heresy...for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things... for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrine so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine Scripture.-Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia, Part I. History of the Councils, Athanasius, sect. 5, 6.

Atahansius wouldn't agree with Modern Orthodoxy scripture is insufficient without your traditions, that is heretical. Just as Nicea is sufficient against Arian heresy, so also scripture is sufficient above all...and it announces the religion of Christ quite clearly to those who accept its teachings.


It  does not follow from my interpreting scripture, that its scripture + interpretation that makes scripture able to equip, because the correct interpretation is determined by the details in scripture, not any human authority.

Its no argument against Scripture's ability to make wise unto salvation----that free will choice to accept its teaching is required for that to occur; THAT is true of food also, it requires free will choice to eat for it to sustain life, BUT it would be irrational to argue food is not nourishing, sufficient to sustain life,  because some refuse to eat it and die.

From your definition of Scripture as melded into Orthodox tradition I perceive the Orthodox have violated a very important commandment of God, that you not add to God's word human tradition:

Ye shall not add to the word which I command you, and ye shall not take from it: keep the commandments of the Lord our God, all that I command you this day. (Deu 4:2 LXE)

The Orthodox view of scripture merged as one into tradition isn't new׃

 3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
 4 "For God commanded, saying,`Honor your father and your mother'; and,`He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'
 5 "But you say,`Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"--
 6 `then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
 (Mat 15:3-9 NKJ)

Your proposition its impossible Orthodox tradition contradict scripture because it is tradition---is irrational, Like insisting every piece of a picture puzzle fits the other because they are all scrambled up in one bag.

Your claim does not follow as Scripture is a distinct entity, its the Word of God and your tradition is a distinct entity, its the word of men.

All "non falsifiable claims" are unsound, your: "the Scriptures are a part of Tradition, and so they cannot contradict each other" is a "non falsifiable theory", therefore unsound. Its analogous to saying the earth and the sun are part of the same universe, therefore the sun can reside in the earth without conflict, and any evidence to the contrary must be wrong because both are part of the same universe."

That is a refusal to see reality, to acknowledge the Sun is not the earth even though both exist in the same universe.

Scripture is not the word of man like your traditions even though both exist in your church. You are confusing very different things, against the commandment of God not to add to His word, your traditions:

32 "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. (Deu 12:32 NKJ)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 07:57:23 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)