Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 195658 times)

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #180 on: September 04, 2010, 05:39:56 AM »


Not unscriptural as reference to information is not claiming a teaching based on it is inerrant word of God.

Moreover, simply lacking the book of Jasher doesn't prove God and Paul wrong, both say scripture is ABLE to make wise unto salvation

The Greek preposition σοφίσαι εἰς σωτηρίαν (2Ti 3:15 STE) is "eis",  wise INTO salvation, not wise up to the door of salvation only.

The text specifies "through faith which is in Christ Jesus" thus identifying the "bare minimum of wisdom required to enter salvation," that one accept scripture's testimony Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God:

 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


I don't argue against all other books or tradition, these certainly can aid one's obtaining the correct answers. I unequivocally affirm scripture is ABLE to make wise INTO salvation, because God and Paul say so.


It is impossible you prove them wrong.


AND similarities between Bible books and non canonical books prove nothing, just as the similar rectangular shape of a car and similar materials doesn't prove its a child of the Empire State Building, or eyes, ears, nose and mouth men come from apes, or horses as our blood is closer to that of horses.

Therefore the missing book of Jasher, whose importance was likely was exhausted in the biblical reference, is immaterial.

Your whole contention of "proving God or Paul" wrong is impossible since my point is to argue against what you preach not God's revelation to us preserved in the holy church. We all know Jesus Christ is Lord & Savior, the primacy of faith in the Gospels, we state our faith as noted in the Nicene Creed, we know the 2 great commands, we know the 10 commandments, the Lord's prayer, we are called to fast, pray, & give alms, to confess individually & to call our priest as our witness, to partake of the Eucharist, to pray the Lord of the harvest & evangelize if God deems us worthy. These are the core basics of our faith easily found in the Holy Bible you utilize to preach foreign doctrine us. You try to argue re the icons, or belief that the Theokos is ever virgin etc. are not "Biblical" according to your tradition or that aspects of revelation are not in conformity to God's revelation as given in the Holy Bible because basically you say so. It is the core basics of our living faith that will, but do not yet, lead to what St. Paul states in Ephesians 2:8-10 re salvation by grace, not by works but for good works. St. Paul also tells us, "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Phillipians 3:14). If you cannot see these as what are the Orthodox faith then you are clearly outside the church & preach foreign doctrine to us; a heretic (not an understanding I automatically have towards non Orthodox Christians).

But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine...
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:8-11 NKJ)

You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

That's wrong according to the scripture.

You argument is not with against me, its against the Word of God, naturally interpreted.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #181 on: September 04, 2010, 05:48:24 AM »
I proselytize for Christ alone...not any church. I could care less if you remain Orthodox...or whatever...

You do realize Christ established a Church, right? It's not just "me and Jesus", despite what many demonic "gospel" tracts say.

The Church is the pillar and ground of truth, a title the Bible doesn't even claim for itself.

You are misinterpreting how Paul meant that...the church does not generate, rather its faithful living the truth proves its validity in the eyes of observers:

The "house of God" is an allusion to Jacob's experience:
 16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and said, The Lord is in this place, and I knew it not.
 17 And he was afraid, and said, How fearful is this place! this is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.
 (Gen 28:16-17 LXE)


The "house of God" is the "gate of heaven" where God revealed Himself. Hence Paul insists Timothy show reverent fear (as Jacob did):  

 
15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

NKJ  1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
 (1Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)


God revealed Himself to the Church. Its a one time delivery (Jude 1:3)

The church upholds (pillar) and grounds this--- "the truth"(hē alētheia) of the gospel by its faithful obedience to the Gospel of Christ.  Then all observers know the revelation is true.
.  In the original Greek there aren't chapter & verse numbers. 1 Tim 4:1 is continuing the theme of 1 Tim 3:16....its a contrast between the true church, and what will occur later as deceiving spirits seduce people away from the simplicity of Christ...unto idols.

 

(a) One of Paul’s most distinctive uses of alētheia within the NT (if the Pastorals are included) is his use of the phrase “the truth” (hē alētheia) to characterize the gospel itself. Although this is most prominent in the Pastorals (see (g) below) this meaning already occurs in Gal. and perhaps in 2 Thess. The actual situation in Gal., rather than considerations about Gk. or Heb. background, makes this correlation intelligible. In Gal. 2:5 Paul declares that what is at issue in his conflict with the Judaizers is quite literally “the truth of the gospel”. In Paul’s judgment, enticement to compromise the gospel is an enticement to compromise the truth, and vice versa. To give way is deny the truth, both in the sense of his own integrity and in the sense of the actual situation in salvation-history as it now is. Hence by Gal. 5:7 “the truth” has become synonymous with the gospel itself: “What hindered you from obeying the truth?” J. Murphy-O’Connor rightly comments “No single term could better mark the contrast between the reality of the Gospel and the ineffectiveness of the Law” (Paul and Qumran, 195).  

 

Brown, C. (1986). Vol. 3: New international dictionary of New Testament theology (884). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House.  



 

« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 05:58:58 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #182 on: September 04, 2010, 05:55:56 AM »


Not unscriptural as reference to information is not claiming a teaching based on it is inerrant word of God.

Moreover, simply lacking the book of Jasher doesn't prove God and Paul wrong, both say scripture is ABLE to make wise unto salvation

The Greek preposition σοφίσαι εἰς σωτηρίαν (2Ti 3:15 STE) is "eis",  wise INTO salvation, not wise up to the door of salvation only.

The text specifies "through faith which is in Christ Jesus" thus identifying the "bare minimum of wisdom required to enter salvation," that one accept scripture's testimony Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God:

 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


I don't argue against all other books or tradition, these certainly can aid one's obtaining the correct answers. I unequivocally affirm scripture is ABLE to make wise INTO salvation, because God and Paul say so.


It is impossible you prove them wrong.


AND similarities between Bible books and non canonical books prove nothing, just as the similar rectangular shape of a car and similar materials doesn't prove its a child of the Empire State Building, or eyes, ears, nose and mouth men come from apes, or horses as our blood is closer to that of horses.

Therefore the missing book of Jasher, whose importance was likely was exhausted in the biblical reference, is immaterial.

Your whole contention of "proving God or Paul" wrong is impossible since my point is to argue against what you preach not God's revelation to us preserved in the holy church. We all know Jesus Christ is Lord & Savior, the primacy of faith in the Gospels, we state our faith as noted in the Nicene Creed, we know the 2 great commands, we know the 10 commandments, the Lord's prayer, we are called to fast, pray, & give alms, to confess individually & to call our priest as our witness, to partake of the Eucharist, to pray the Lord of the harvest & evangelize if God deems us worthy. These are the core basics of our faith easily found in the Holy Bible you utilize to preach foreign doctrine us. You try to argue re the icons, or belief that the Theokos is ever virgin etc. are not "Biblical" according to your tradition or that aspects of revelation are not in conformity to God's revelation as given in the Holy Bible because basically you say so. It is the core basics of our living faith that will, but do not yet, lead to what St. Paul states in Ephesians 2:8-10 re salvation by grace, not by works but for good works. St. Paul also tells us, "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Phillipians 3:14). If you cannot see these as what are the Orthodox faith then you are clearly outside the church & preach foreign doctrine to us; a heretic (not an understanding I automatically have towards non Orthodox Christians).

But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:
No, he's not arguing against St. Paul.  He's arguing against you.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine...
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)
You might want to stop trotting out that old canard, since we've already debunked your interpretation of it many times.

Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:8-11 NKJ)
Do you know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?  If you did, then you would do what He commands you to do.  St. Paul spoke very highly of the Church.  Why do you not follow St. Paul?

You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...
What do you know of oral tradition?  You can't just preach sola scriptura in opposition to oral tradition, and then trot out oral tradition when it's convenient to your argument.  You need to be more consistent, lest you undermine your own reasoning.

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.
You have not yet proven that iconography was absent from the early Church.  Its mere absence from Scripture is an argument from silence, and therefore invalid as evidence.

That's wrong according to the scripture.

You argument is not with against me, its against the Word of God, naturally interpreted.
Get over yourself, Alfred. :police:  Our argument is not against the Scriptures, nor is it against the Word of God, Who is really Jesus Christ.  Our argument is against you, and you know it. >:(
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #183 on: September 04, 2010, 06:03:07 AM »
Get over yourself, Alfred. :police:  Our argument is not against the Scriptures, nor is it against the Word of God, Who is really Jesus Christ.  Our argument is against you, and you know it. >:(

Its not me who says God inspired Scripture to make us completely equipped, its the Word of God that says it:

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.

But that caveat is not in Paul's words.

Show me a verse that says "Scripture is not profitable for doctrine without the Orthodox explaining it."

Then I will admit your argument is against me, not scripture.


The text says "all scripture" or "every scripture" is profitable...so the idea some of it is incomprehensible contradicts God, and Paul. If its incomprehensible, then its also unprofitable.

I don't deny there are difficult texts...but they can be understood if one applies due diligence and has the Spirit of Christ dwelling within, gently guiding into the truth granting perception as to what is correct.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 06:07:22 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline DennyB

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #184 on: September 04, 2010, 07:33:42 AM »
Get over yourself, Alfred. :police:  Our argument is not against the Scriptures, nor is it against the Word of God, Who is really Jesus Christ.  Our argument is against you, and you know it. >:(

Its not me who says God inspired Scripture to make us completely equipped, its the Word of God that says it:

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.

But that caveat is not in Paul's words.

Show me a verse that says "Scripture is not profitable for doctrine without the Orthodox explaining it."

Then I will admit your argument is against me, not scripture.


The text says "all scripture" or "every scripture" is profitable...so the idea some of it is incomprehensible contradicts God, and Paul. If its incomprehensible, then its also unprofitable.

I don't deny there are difficult texts...but they can be understood if one applies due diligence and has the Spirit of Christ dwelling within, gently guiding into the truth granting perception as to what is correct.

You don't seem to understand that with your approach to the Scriptures,there is no way to tell the difference between "Personal Preference" and the unction of the Spirit. You therefore need a concensus approach,meaning as St Vincent de Lerins has said: "what has been believed everywhere,always,and by all", meaning the WHOLE church,not by just the Bishops,and clergy,but the laity together with one voice,this is the litmus for catholicity,not personal opinion!!

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #185 on: September 04, 2010, 11:46:08 AM »
It's interesting that Alfred won't address 2 Thess 2:15. Probably because it directly contradicts what he is saying.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #186 on: September 04, 2010, 12:42:13 PM »
Quote
You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, if the scriptures are completely comprehensible unto themselves, then why are there many different interpretations?

I can show you two people who feel deeply convicted about their beliefs about the "plain meaning" of any given verse, but have exactly the opposite belief. They both can have amazing exegesis, yet come to opposing conclusions.

The fact is, you have no objective foundation by which to judge anything. It's all about etymology, archaeology, and a feeling in your soul. Well congratulations, everyone from Jehovah's Witnesses to Quakers judge their beliefs by the same standards, and they all use more or less the same Bible.

Meanwhile, we use these things as well, but they are always held in check by the objective standard of St Vincent that DennyB mentions above. Since the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic, he doesn't lead different people to different interpretations. Since the Church is one living organism, it is not divided against itself. And because of all that, the tradition of the Church is trustworthy. That is why the Church Herself is the pillar and ground of truth, because a faithful member of the Church cannot deviate from the very narrow path She has marked out for us, by the Spirit's universal guidance.

Meanwhile, you—sitting there with just your Bible and whatever commentaries you deem correct—are not inherently or objectively trustworthy. You're one man meandering about after feelings and "convictions", without even the ability to discern whether these "convictions" are in fact true, because you have no point of reference outside of yourself.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 12:46:44 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #187 on: September 04, 2010, 12:47:33 PM »
LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them.  

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? :D

Incorrect, correctly interpret scripture and I will be pleased, I promise.

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:


      “ He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
      And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
       So He opened not His mouth.
       33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
      And who will declare His generation?
      For His life is taken from the earth.”

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Acts 8:30-38

Jehovah's Witnesses cite this precise text for why their Governing Body or Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is required, Catholics cite it to show the Catholic Magisterium is needed, now presumably you cite it to prove Orthodox novelties are required.

But that isn't what Philip said to the Eunuch, he preached Jesus to him, who TODAY is found in our Bibles.

Therefore, as Jesus is found in our Bibles today, the context proves the Bible is required.

It says nothing about Orthodoxy.

So God's words through Paul remain undiminished by your appeal to this text:


16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine...
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 12:51:28 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #188 on: September 04, 2010, 12:57:17 PM »
Quote
You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, if the scriptures are completely comprehensible unto themselves, then why are there many different interpretations?

I can show you two people who feel deeply convicted about their beliefs about the "plain meaning" of any given verse, but have exactly the opposite belief. They both can have amazing exegesis, yet come to opposing conclusions.

The fact is, you have no objective foundation by which to judge anything. It's all about etymology, archaeology, and a feeling in your soul. Well congratulations, everyone from Jehovah's Witnesses to Quakers judge their beliefs by the same standards, and they all use more or less the same Bible.

Meanwhile, we use these things as well, but they are always held in check by the objective standard of St Vincent that DennyB mentions above. Since the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic, he doesn't lead different people to different interpretations. Since the Church is one living organism, it is not divided against itself. And because of all that, the tradition of the Church is trustworthy. That is why the Church Herself is the pillar and ground of truth, because a faithful member of the Church cannot deviate from the very narrow path She has marked out for us, by the Spirit's universal guidance.

Meanwhile, you—sitting there with just your Bible and whatever commentaries you deem correct—are not inherently or objectively trustworthy. You're one man meandering about after feelings and "convictions", without even the ability to discern whether these "convictions" are in fact true, because you have no point of reference outside of yourself.

Your argument is "special pleading," you are holding scripture up to a standard no literature achieves. Every statement on earth, regardless how simple, has its meaning disputed...there are lots of reasons for this, sometimes its profit, sometimes its hate, but often its just human nature to get things wrong.

What should really excite you, prove to you the Bible is inspired by God and His Spirit is laboring to overcome fallen human nature, is the level of Christian agreement as to what the Bible teaches.

Fact is, if you boil off all our disagreements, we all (mainline Christendom)  agree 80% or more, as to what scripture says.

That is divine, no other literature on the planet is as diverse---given the Bible is 66 books written over 1,500 time span on three different continents by very different people in three different languages..., yet in such phenomenal agreement.

Given that reality, the agreement as to what it says is INCREDIBLE, clearly there must be a divine reason why there is this level of agreement, when any other document far less complex and ancient, results in far more disagreement.



« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 01:02:08 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #189 on: September 04, 2010, 01:45:55 PM »
Get over yourself, Alfred. :police:  Our argument is not against the Scriptures, nor is it against the Word of God, Who is really Jesus Christ.  Our argument is against you, and you know it. >:(

Its not me who says God inspired Scripture to make us completely equipped, its the Word of God that says it:

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.
I don't know where you're getting this information that you feel so much at liberty to plant it into our mouths, but we've been arguing the exact opposite, that Scripture IS profitable for doctrine.

But that caveat is not in Paul's words.

Show me a verse that says "Scripture is not profitable for doctrine without the Orthodox explaining it."

Then I will admit your argument is against me, not scripture.


The text says "all scripture" or "every scripture" is profitable...so the idea some of it is incomprehensible contradicts God, and Paul. If its incomprehensible, then its also unprofitable.
Apples and oranges!  Comprehensibility and profitability are two totally unrelated concepts.  I'm sure an IRS tax form is very profitable reading, even though I can't begin to comprehend what it says.

I don't deny there are difficult texts...but they can be understood if one applies due diligence and has the Spirit of Christ dwelling within, gently guiding into the truth granting perception as to what is correct.
But the dwelling of the Spirit within cannot possibly lead to such a myriad of different, often contradictory interpretations of Scripture as I see in the sola scriptura crowd if God cannot contradict Himself.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 02:04:18 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #190 on: September 04, 2010, 01:54:38 PM »
Quote
You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, if the scriptures are completely comprehensible unto themselves, then why are there many different interpretations?

I can show you two people who feel deeply convicted about their beliefs about the "plain meaning" of any given verse, but have exactly the opposite belief. They both can have amazing exegesis, yet come to opposing conclusions.

The fact is, you have no objective foundation by which to judge anything. It's all about etymology, archaeology, and a feeling in your soul. Well congratulations, everyone from Jehovah's Witnesses to Quakers judge their beliefs by the same standards, and they all use more or less the same Bible.

Meanwhile, we use these things as well, but they are always held in check by the objective standard of St Vincent that DennyB mentions above. Since the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic, he doesn't lead different people to different interpretations. Since the Church is one living organism, it is not divided against itself. And because of all that, the tradition of the Church is trustworthy. That is why the Church Herself is the pillar and ground of truth, because a faithful member of the Church cannot deviate from the very narrow path She has marked out for us, by the Spirit's universal guidance.

Meanwhile, you—sitting there with just your Bible and whatever commentaries you deem correct—are not inherently or objectively trustworthy. You're one man meandering about after feelings and "convictions", without even the ability to discern whether these "convictions" are in fact true, because you have no point of reference outside of yourself.

Your argument is "special pleading," you are holding scripture up to a standard no literature achieves. Every statement on earth, regardless how simple, has its meaning disputed...there are lots of reasons for this, sometimes its profit, sometimes its hate, but often its just human nature to get things wrong.

What should really excite you, prove to you the Bible is inspired by God and His Spirit is laboring to overcome fallen human nature, is the level of Christian agreement as to what the Bible teaches.

Fact is, if you boil off all our disagreements, we all (mainline Christendom)  agree 80% or more, as to what scripture says.

That is divine, no other literature on the planet is as diverse---given the Bible is 66 books written over 1,500 time span on three different continents by very different people in three different languages..., yet in such phenomenal agreement.

Given that reality, the agreement as to what it says is INCREDIBLE, clearly there must be a divine reason why there is this level of agreement, when any other document far less complex and ancient, results in far more disagreement.
Yes, it's that divine-human organism St. Paul calls the pillar and ground of the truth.  Without the Church, you wouldn't have the Bible.
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Offline TristanCross

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #191 on: September 04, 2010, 02:08:29 PM »
I can't believe Protestants think they can win a debate on an Orthodox forum. It's just like the time I went to a Calvinist forum with a Catholic agenda.  :o
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #192 on: September 04, 2010, 02:45:32 PM »
Get over yourself, Alfred. :police:  Our argument is not against the Scriptures, nor is it against the Word of God, Who is really Jesus Christ.  Our argument is against you, and you know it. >:(

Its not me who says God inspired Scripture to make us completely equipped, its the Word of God that says it:

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.
I don't know where you're getting this information that you feel so much at liberty to plant it into our mouths, but we've been arguing the exact opposite, that Scripture IS profitable for doctrine.

But that caveat is not in Paul's words.

Show me a verse that says "Scripture is not profitable for doctrine without the Orthodox explaining it."

Then I will admit your argument is against me, not scripture.


The text says "all scripture" or "every scripture" is profitable...so the idea some of it is incomprehensible contradicts God, and Paul. If its incomprehensible, then its also unprofitable.
Apples and oranges!  Comprehensibility and profitability are two totally unrelated concepts.  I'm sure an IRS tax form is very profitable reading, even though I can't begin to comprehend what it says.

I don't deny there are difficult texts...but they can be understood if one applies due diligence and has the Spirit of Christ dwelling within, gently guiding into the truth granting perception as to what is correct.
But the dwelling of the Spirit within cannot possibly lead to such a myriad of different, often contradictory interpretations of Scripture as I see in the sola scriptura crowd if God cannot contradict Himself.

Your argument evades an elegant fact, God never trusted our salvation to us:

 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 (Rom 8:29-30 NKJ)

God puts the life giving PETRA of Christ in our hearts, and in our mouths just as He did for Simon PRWTOS:

 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
 (Mat 16:16-17 NKJ)

6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart,`Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
 7 or, "`Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 (Rom 10:6-10 NKJ)

Therefore what is required to be "wise unto salvation" must be simple, something everyone of us can "get"  without a "guru" or "someone to bring Christ down to our level"...so while there may be lots of things that are great to know, the one thing absolutely essential to know, God makes clear to us without exception:

 30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 (Joh 20:30-1 NKJ)

 16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
 17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 (Joh 3:16-18 NKJ)

So when  you argue the complex hard things require a guru, consent of the fathers, bishops, whatever...the answer I repeat is, who needs that to be "wise unto salvation?...even a child can be made wise unto salvation by the Scripture, without your guru:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)


I argue this, for argument's sake, there are too many of your traditions, that contradict God's Word...so you are not benefited by them at all. But for argument's sake I say, even if you were, so what...scripture by itself is able to make children wise unto salvation, just as it did with Timothy...and without your help or that of your church.




For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #193 on: September 04, 2010, 03:03:50 PM »
Quote
You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, if the scriptures are completely comprehensible unto themselves, then why are there many different interpretations?

I can show you two people who feel deeply convicted about their beliefs about the "plain meaning" of any given verse, but have exactly the opposite belief. They both can have amazing exegesis, yet come to opposing conclusions.

The fact is, you have no objective foundation by which to judge anything. It's all about etymology, archaeology, and a feeling in your soul. Well congratulations, everyone from Jehovah's Witnesses to Quakers judge their beliefs by the same standards, and they all use more or less the same Bible.

Meanwhile, we use these things as well, but they are always held in check by the objective standard of St Vincent that DennyB mentions above. Since the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic, he doesn't lead different people to different interpretations. Since the Church is one living organism, it is not divided against itself. And because of all that, the tradition of the Church is trustworthy. That is why the Church Herself is the pillar and ground of truth, because a faithful member of the Church cannot deviate from the very narrow path She has marked out for us, by the Spirit's universal guidance.

Meanwhile, you—sitting there with just your Bible and whatever commentaries you deem correct—are not inherently or objectively trustworthy. You're one man meandering about after feelings and "convictions", without even the ability to discern whether these "convictions" are in fact true, because you have no point of reference outside of yourself.

Your argument is "special pleading," you are holding scripture up to a standard no literature achieves. Every statement on earth, regardless how simple, has its meaning disputed...there are lots of reasons for this, sometimes its profit, sometimes its hate, but often its just human nature to get things wrong.

What should really excite you, prove to you the Bible is inspired by God and His Spirit is laboring to overcome fallen human nature, is the level of Christian agreement as to what the Bible teaches.

Fact is, if you boil off all our disagreements, we all (mainline Christendom)  agree 80% or more, as to what scripture says.

That is divine, no other literature on the planet is as diverse---given the Bible is 66 books written over 1,500 time span on three different continents by very different people in three different languages..., yet in such phenomenal agreement.

Given that reality, the agreement as to what it says is INCREDIBLE, clearly there must be a divine reason why there is this level of agreement, when any other document far less complex and ancient, results in far more disagreement.





I know it's special pleading. The absurdity of what I said proves the absurdity of Sola Scriptura. The Bible cannot stand on its own; it is utterly impossible, because it must be interpreted. The meaning cannot be inferred simply by reading it, because everyone reads it through their own lens. That is simply the nature of things; that is neither good nor bad in itself.

But it must be interpreted so we can know what doctrine is, and how to reproof and correct people. You can do that by a) Tradition—that which was believed by all, in all places, and all times; or b) private interpretation, based on hand-picked scholars and perspectives, or even just your own whims.

One of these is consistent and universal, the other is inconsistent and fragmented. One elevates the Church above the individual, the other elevates the individual above the Church.

Since the Church is a single, coherent organism; and believers are to be of one mind, with one coherent Faith; and the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic; only a universal interpretation fits with the nature of God and the Church. That means individuals must bow to Tradition, and not Tradition to individuals.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 03:09:01 PM by bogdan »

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #194 on: September 04, 2010, 03:34:17 PM »
So when  you argue the complex hard things require a guru, consent of the fathers, bishops, whatever...the answer I repeat is, who needs that to be "wise unto salvation?...even a child can be made wise unto salvation by the Scripture, without your guru:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)


I argue this, for argument's sake, there are too many of your traditions, that contradict God's Word...so you are not benefited by them at all. But for argument's sake I say, even if you were, so what...scripture by itself is able to make children wise unto salvation, just as it did with Timothy...and without your help or that of your church.
No, Alfred. What you say is not correct. You need to include verse 14
Quote
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them (NKJV)
Timothy did not just pull a Bible off a shelf, begin reading, and become "...thoroughly equipped..." He was taught many things (I've asked you before to tell us what you think that might have been) by others. What he learned from their words and from the example of their lives also contributed to his becoming a complete Christian, through reproof, correction, and instruction.

And I will also state that quite frankly I take offence at your assertion that Orthodox Tradition "contradict(s) God's Word". You clearly do not understand what we Orthodox mean by Tradition. You have no right to declare that I am not benefited at all by two thousand years of collective wisdom of faithful Christians. Your arrogance and judgementalism in this matter are decidedly out of order.

Does anybody else hear a clanging cymbal?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #195 on: September 04, 2010, 04:31:46 PM »
So when  you argue the complex hard things require a guru, consent of the fathers, bishops, whatever...the answer I repeat is, who needs that to be "wise unto salvation?...even a child can be made wise unto salvation by the Scripture, without your guru:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)


I argue this, for argument's sake, there are too many of your traditions, that contradict God's Word...so you are not benefited by them at all. But for argument's sake I say, even if you were, so what...scripture by itself is able to make children wise unto salvation, just as it did with Timothy...and without your help or that of your church.
No, Alfred. What you say is not correct. You need to include verse 14
Quote
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them (NKJV)
Timothy did not just pull a Bible off a shelf, begin reading, and become "...thoroughly equipped..." He was taught many things (I've asked you before to tell us what you think that might have been) by others. What he learned from their words and from the example of their lives also contributed to his becoming a complete Christian, through reproof, correction, and instruction.

And I will also state that quite frankly I take offence at your assertion that Orthodox Tradition "contradict(s) God's Word". You clearly do not understand what we Orthodox mean by Tradition. You have no right to declare that I am not benefited at all by two thousand years of collective wisdom of faithful Christians. Your arrogance and judgementalism in this matter are decidedly out of order.

Does anybody else hear a clanging cymbal?
Yes.  Alfred is never going to convince us of one iota of what he's saying as long as he starts from premises we don't accept.  We don't accept sola scriptura, so he will need to first convince us to embrace sola scriptura for us to find his constant proof texting from Scripture convincing.  And, ironically, he will need to convince us to embrace sola scriptura by citing authorities external to the Scriptures, and whom we recognize as speaking with authority.

He's also not going to convince us of anything as long as he keeps offending us by spouting his personal judgmental opinions of us.  One can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 04:37:18 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #196 on: September 04, 2010, 05:06:21 PM »
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #197 on: September 04, 2010, 05:35:38 PM »
Yes.  Alfred is never going to convince us of one iota of what he's saying as long as he starts from premises we don't accept.  We don't accept sola scriptura, so he will need to first convince us to embrace sola scriptura for us to find his constant proof texting from Scripture convincing.  And, ironically, he will need to convince us to embrace sola scriptura by citing authorities external to the Scriptures, and whom we recognize as speaking with authority.

He's also not going to convince us of anything as long as he keeps offending us by spouting his personal judgmental opinions of us.  One can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Fundamentally you must argue: 1)PeterTheAleut cannot understand scripture or 2)Paul is wrong believing scripture equips completely.

Given 2 Ti 3:16ff, which position exactly are you arguing.

Talking about outside authority is irrelevant, I am discussing scripture. You either 1)believe it; 2)Don't believe it; 3)Don't understand it.

Thanks in advance for making your position clear.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline DennyB

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #198 on: September 04, 2010, 05:47:07 PM »
Yes.  Alfred is never going to convince us of one iota of what he's saying as long as he starts from premises we don't accept.  We don't accept sola scriptura, so he will need to first convince us to embrace sola scriptura for us to find his constant proof texting from Scripture convincing.  And, ironically, he will need to convince us to embrace sola scriptura by citing authorities external to the Scriptures, and whom we recognize as speaking with authority.

He's also not going to convince us of anything as long as he keeps offending us by spouting his personal judgmental opinions of us.  One can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Fundamentally you must argue: 1)PeterTheAleut cannot understand scripture or 2)Paul is wrong believing scripture equips completely.

Given 2 Ti 3:16ff, which position exactly are you arguing.

Talking about outside authority is irrelevant, I am discussing scripture. You either 1)believe it; 2)Don't believe it; 3)Don't understand it.

Thanks in advance for making your position clear.

Your talking in so many directions,I really don't know what your point is,your the type of person who knows just enough to be dangerous, are you part of the Presbybaptistpenticostal denominations,or some other morphed denomination??
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 05:48:57 PM by DennyB »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #199 on: September 04, 2010, 05:53:25 PM »
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.

1)Yes, Seriously, but you answer if the Orthodox are arguing with or against Paul. Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?


2)God didn't trust you, or me, with our salvation. He knows better. So God predestined all those He already knew were His, before the founding of the world, to be saved:

4 ...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself...
6 He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)



God puts what He requires, in our mouth and heart, He divinely revealed Christ to our soul, and then we confess the PETRA of Christ, publicly:

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 (Rom 10:8-10 NKJ)


What is essential to being made wise unto salvation, is in  the Bible. The entire Bible was written to communicate the life giving PETRA of Christ:

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)

Therefore man is not required for our salvation...that includes every church on earth.

One might prefer a church over the other, because they consider its doctrines true, or the others false...but its wrong to believe the church has anything to do with our salvation...they do not...our salvation is a gift from God, and not of men, including we ourselves:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 (Eph 2:8-10 NKJ)

We are God's workmanship, it took a divine act of creation to put us in Christ, we don't have the power to do that, nor is our power required to complete God's act of creation.

We are saved by grace, that is, undeserved kindness, and this salvation is NOT of ourselves...even the faith required to confess Christ, was inspired in us, by God Himself.


3)Icons diminish God to your psyche, if you speak to God picturing a finite image, then you engaging in idolatry having reduced the infinite God, into a finite form like unto a creature.

You cannot find one verse talking about icons, or describing their use, in the NT...because they didn't use them.








« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 06:04:38 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #200 on: September 04, 2010, 06:01:30 PM »
Yes.  Alfred is never going to convince us of one iota of what he's saying as long as he starts from premises we don't accept.  We don't accept sola scriptura, so he will need to first convince us to embrace sola scriptura for us to find his constant proof texting from Scripture convincing.  And, ironically, he will need to convince us to embrace sola scriptura by citing authorities external to the Scriptures, and whom we recognize as speaking with authority.

He's also not going to convince us of anything as long as he keeps offending us by spouting his personal judgmental opinions of us.  One can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Fundamentally you must argue: 1)PeterTheAleut cannot understand scripture or 2)Paul is wrong believing scripture equips completely.

Given 2 Ti 3:16ff, which position exactly are you arguing.

Talking about outside authority is irrelevant, I am discussing scripture. You either 1)believe it; 2)Don't believe it; 3)Don't understand it.

Thanks in advance for making your position clear.

Your talking in so many directions,I really don't know what your point is,your the type of person who knows just enough to be dangerous, are you part of the Presbybaptistpenticostal denominations,or some other morphed denomination??

No.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #201 on: September 04, 2010, 07:05:32 PM »
Yes.  Alfred is never going to convince us of one iota of what he's saying as long as he starts from premises we don't accept.  We don't accept sola scriptura, so he will need to first convince us to embrace sola scriptura for us to find his constant proof texting from Scripture convincing.  And, ironically, he will need to convince us to embrace sola scriptura by citing authorities external to the Scriptures, and whom we recognize as speaking with authority.

He's also not going to convince us of anything as long as he keeps offending us by spouting his personal judgmental opinions of us.  One can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Fundamentally you must argue: 1)PeterTheAleut cannot understand scripture or 2)Paul is wrong believing scripture equips completely.
You forgot one.  3) Alfred Persson is wrong.

Given 2 Ti 3:16ff, which position exactly are you arguing.
1 Ti 3:15

Talking about outside authority is irrelevant, I am discussing scripture. You either 1)believe it; 2)Don't believe it; 3)Don't understand it.
No, it's perfectly relevant, since I'm laying out what you need to accomplish for us to believe you.  Right now you're just arguing with your straw men.

Thanks in advance for making your position clear.
You're welcome. :)
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Offline DennyB

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #202 on: September 04, 2010, 07:16:39 PM »
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.

1)Yes, Seriously, but you answer if the Orthodox are arguing with or against Paul. Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?


2)God didn't trust you, or me, with our salvation. He knows better. So God predestined all those He already knew were His, before the founding of the world, to be saved:

4 ...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself...
6 He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)



God puts what He requires, in our mouth and heart, He divinely revealed Christ to our soul, and then we confess the PETRA of Christ, publicly:

8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 (Rom 10:8-10 NKJ)


What is essential to being made wise unto salvation, is in  the Bible. The entire Bible was written to communicate the life giving PETRA of Christ:

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)

Therefore man is not required for our salvation...that includes every church on earth.

One might prefer a church over the other, because they consider its doctrines true, or the others false...but its wrong to believe the church has anything to do with our salvation...they do not...our salvation is a gift from God, and not of men, including we ourselves:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 (Eph 2:8-10 NKJ)

We are God's workmanship, it took a divine act of creation to put us in Christ, we don't have the power to do that, nor is our power required to complete God's act of creation.

We are saved by grace, that is, undeserved kindness, and this salvation is NOT of ourselves...even the faith required to confess Christ, was inspired in us, by God Himself.


3)Icons diminish God to your psyche, if you speak to God picturing a finite image, then you engaging in idolatry having reduced the infinite God, into a finite form like unto a creature.

You cannot find one verse talking about icons, or describing their use, in the NT...because they didn't use them.










What "image" of God have you formed in your own mind? You do realize that one forms images from what they read,and see in everyday life,so I ask again what "image of God" have you formed in your own mind and heart? Life is simply filled with images,or icons that stir the human imagination. So I would say Holy Icons are nothing but images of the Biblical record,and the life of the Church,formed in art.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #203 on: September 04, 2010, 07:18:10 PM »
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.

1)Yes, Seriously, but you answer if the Orthodox are arguing with or against Paul. Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?
We just think you're arguing your own non sequitur logic and your own goofy interpretations of Scripture, which I've not seen even among the Protestant churches I used to attend.  You might find by learning more about us that we don't place such value on syllogistic reasoning when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.  IOW, we even find your methodology questionable.

2)God didn't trust you, or me, with our salvation. He knows better. So God predestined all those He already knew were His, before the founding of the world, to be saved:

4 ...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself...
6 He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)
So, you're a Calvinist, then.  Why don't you go look for a thread where we've already discussed the subject of predestination vs. free will?

3)Icons diminish God to your psyche, if you speak to God picturing a finite image, then you engaging in idolatry having reduced the infinite God, into a finite form like unto a creature.

You cannot find one verse talking about icons, or describing their use, in the NT...because they didn't use them.
You've already argued this before.  Remember?  So why don't you take your iconoclasm to the thread where you first talked about it?  Let's keep this thread on topic, okay?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #204 on: September 04, 2010, 07:51:50 PM »
Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?
Alfred, here you go again quoting for the umpteenth time those verses from 2 Tim 3 out of context.

It's very noticeable that you have chosen to omit
Quote
(profitable for)... for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
We Orthodox have countered you on many occasions with Scripture, but you continue to demand that we accept your and only your interpretation.

The Orthodox most definitely accept the words of Holy Scripture -- all of it. We didn't omit a whole list of books within the last five hundred years that makes our doctrinal position awkward. Think about it.

Unfortunately, it appears that you don't believe what the Scriptures say as you insert "only" so that the verses you quoted should read "ONLY Scripture is given by God...and ONLY Scripture is profitable..." I challenge you to insert "only" into all your verses including John 20:31, and see if the meaning is changed. If there is no change, then you have added words that aren't there. If the meaning does change, then it follows that Scripture does not stand alone, but within a greater context.

Try reading Acts 15. The Apostles did not find an explicit answer to their problem in Scripture. Yes, they used and quoted Scripture, but
Quote
We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things...(NKJV)
Do you honestly believe that Judas and Silas merely read the letter to the Christians in Antioch and other places with no further instruction or discussion? Note as well that the solution to the issue came about yes - with the help of Scripture - but also with direction from the Holy Spirit and by the Apostles' own careful reasoning.

Alfred, have you ever attended an Orthodox service with a heart and mind open enough to actually listen to what's going on? If so, you would know how highly we venerate the words of Scripture. For example, we stand when the Gospel book is brought in; we stand for the reading of the Gospel - because in those words we see Christ. Our Divine Liturgy is almost entirely Scriptural quotations or obvious allusions to the Scriptures. It was the Orthodox Church that determined which Apostolic Writings would form the canon of the New Testament. Yes, Alfred, you are reading our Bible and then you have the effrontery to tell us we don't understand it!

Alfred, understand this as being said with kindness and sincere concern for you: don't let your Bible become your idol. Close it. Just for a while. Look around at what God has done - the world He has made, the people He has brought into your life for your good, for your own life and the changes He has already begun to make in you. See to it that "you are an epistle of Christ... written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart."(2 Cor 3:3, NKJV)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #205 on: September 05, 2010, 12:53:47 AM »
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.

1)Yes, Seriously, but you answer if the Orthodox are arguing with or against Paul. Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?
We just think you're arguing your own non sequitur logic and your own goofy interpretations of Scripture, which I've not seen even among the Protestant churches I used to attend.  You might find by learning more about us that we don't place such value on syllogistic reasoning when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.  IOW, we even find your methodology questionable.

2)God didn't trust you, or me, with our salvation. He knows better. So God predestined all those He already knew were His, before the founding of the world, to be saved:

4 ...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself...
6 He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)
So, you're a Calvinist, then.  Why don't you go look for a thread where we've already discussed the subject of predestination vs. free will?

3)Icons diminish God to your psyche, if you speak to God picturing a finite image, then you engaging in idolatry having reduced the infinite God, into a finite form like unto a creature.

You cannot find one verse talking about icons, or describing their use, in the NT...because they didn't use them.
You've already argued this before.  Remember?  So why don't you take your iconoclasm to the thread where you first talked about it?  Let's keep this thread on topic, okay?

Prove its non sequitur, describe the disconnection:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Compare the Bible in Basic English translation:

16 Every holy Writing which comes from God is of profit for teaching, for training, for guiding, for education in righteousness:
 17 So that the man of God may be complete, trained and made ready for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 BBE)

HINA in vs 17 is "so that", God gave scripture SO THAT the man of God be thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work.

Teaching the Christian religion to others is a good work.

Therefore scripture completely equips the man of God to teach the Christian religion.

Prove that syllogistic logic unsound, otherwise you are just throwing dust into the air.



I am not a Calvinist, although he was close, no banana. It is written:

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:29

Contrary to the presumption of both Calvinists and Arminians, and every flavor in between, Verse 29 does NOT say "those whom God elected after foreknowing them, these He predestined."

If you were to diagram this, KAI separates both actions, both happen to the elect who existed before this verse's action.

Its like a one rung ladder, the two legs of foreknowledge and predestination are connected only to the rung, not each other.

That totally destroys Arminius' arguments, and also double predestination of Calvinists. Two birds with one stone.

God already knew who the elect were, before He foreknew and predestined them. God doesn't need foreknowledge, to know anything, He already knows all things.

Therefore the foreknowledge was for our benefit, not His, that God be proved true, and every man a liar. Those God elected, would have merited election by man's standards (but not God's), if that is what God wanted to do. But He didn't lest pride cause us to fall as it did the devil.

We don't know why God elected us, we do know that we are unworthy.

It does not follow the naysayers are right, that God was unjust, in His foreknowledge, using their own standards, they are proven wrong. While that is speculation, its likely.

Let God be true, and every naysayer a liar, God will be proved righteous, their mouths will be stopped.

An analogy:

I know my fleet of cars are road worthy, but you dispute that. So I put them thorough various tests, with they pass, proving they are roadworthy according to your standards, to refute your charge I discriminated unfairly against other cars not selected.

It does not follow these cars would pass the test according to MY standards, but that was never the issue. Its your complaint I am addressing. I already state emphatically these cars were only allowed in because of the merits of Jesus Christ.

So I never revealed to you why these cars are in my fleet...but that is my business, not yours. It suffices you are proved wrong if you declare my choices unjust.

So God effects our salvation, not us:

NKJ  Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 (Rom 8:30 NKJ)

But foreknowledge had nothing to do with election, God already knew who the elect are, before anything:

NKJ  Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Eph 1:4 NKJ)


All this is implied by Paul, the context of Rom 8:29 or here doesn't mention the unsaved, because God didn't mandate who the  reprobate are, they do that to themselves, which was made clear in the beginning:

LXE  Genesis 4:7 Hast thou not sinned if thou hast brought it rightly, but not rightly divided it? be still, to thee shall be his submission, and thou shalt rule over him. (Gen 4:7 LXE)

Or as our LORD said it, THEY closed their eyes and ears, not Him:

NKJ  Matthew 13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
 (Mat 13:15 NKJ)

This is Not Calvinism, its scripture truth.

Foreknowledge proves God's judgments  are just, all the saved need to know that for a truth, so they don't wonder about it:

NKJ  Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested." (Rev 15:4 NKJ)

Foreknowledge manifests God didn't elect unworthy people, but this sheds no light on why He selected them...that too is for our benefit, lest we grow prideful as the devil did.

Fact is, NONE of the elect deserve salvation, they all were born in sin, and sinned, falling short of the required perfection for life.


As for icons, that subject belongs in the other thread...I erred mentioning it here.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 01:14:33 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #206 on: September 05, 2010, 01:45:28 AM »
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.

1)Yes, Seriously, but you answer if the Orthodox are arguing with or against Paul. Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?
We just think you're arguing your own non sequitur logic and your own goofy interpretations of Scripture, which I've not seen even among the Protestant churches I used to attend.  You might find by learning more about us that we don't place such value on syllogistic reasoning when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.  IOW, we even find your methodology questionable.

2)God didn't trust you, or me, with our salvation. He knows better. So God predestined all those He already knew were His, before the founding of the world, to be saved:

4 ...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself...
6 He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)
So, you're a Calvinist, then.  Why don't you go look for a thread where we've already discussed the subject of predestination vs. free will?

3)Icons diminish God to your psyche, if you speak to God picturing a finite image, then you engaging in idolatry having reduced the infinite God, into a finite form like unto a creature.

You cannot find one verse talking about icons, or describing their use, in the NT...because they didn't use them.
You've already argued this before.  Remember?  So why don't you take your iconoclasm to the thread where you first talked about it?  Let's keep this thread on topic, okay?

Prove its non sequitur, describe the disconnection:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Compare the Bible in Basic English translation:

16 Every holy Writing which comes from God is of profit for teaching, for training, for guiding, for education in righteousness:
 17 So that the man of God may be complete, trained and made ready for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 BBE)

HINA in vs 17 is "so that", God gave scripture SO THAT the man of God be thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work.

Teaching the Christian religion to others is a good work.

Therefore scripture completely equips the man of God to teach the Christian religion.

Prove that syllogistic logic unsound, otherwise you are just throwing dust into the air.



I am not a Calvinist, although he was close, no banana. It is written:

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:29

Contrary to the presumption of both Calvinists and Arminians, and every flavor in between, Verse 29 does NOT say "those whom God elected after foreknowing them, these He predestined."

If you were to diagram this, KAI separates both actions, both happen to the elect who existed before this verse's action.

Its like a one rung ladder, the two legs of foreknowledge and predestination are connected only to the rung, not each other.

That totally destroys Arminius' arguments, and also double predestination of Calvinists. Two birds with one stone.

God already knew who the elect were, before He foreknew and predestined them. God doesn't need foreknowledge, to know anything, He already knows all things.

Therefore the foreknowledge was for our benefit, not His, that God be proved true, and every man a liar. Those God elected, would have merited election by man's standards (but not God's), if that is what God wanted to do. But He didn't lest pride cause us to fall as it did the devil.

We don't know why God elected us, we do know that we are unworthy.

It does not follow the naysayers are right, that God was unjust, in His foreknowledge, using their own standards, they are proven wrong. While that is speculation, its likely.

Let God be true, and every naysayer a liar, God will be proved righteous, their mouths will be stopped.

An analogy:

I know my fleet of cars are road worthy, but you dispute that. So I put them through rigorous test that you agree is a real test, and they pass, proving they are roadworthy according to your standards, to refute your charge I discriminated unfairly against other cars not selected.

It does not follow these cars would pass the test according to MY standards, but that was never the issue. Its your complaint I am addressing. I already state emphatically these cars were only allowed in because of the merits of Jesus Christ.

So I never revealed to you why these cars are in my fleet...but that is my business, not yours. It suffices you are proved wrong if you declare my choices unjust.

So God effects our salvation, not us:

NKJ  Romans 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 (Rom 8:30 NKJ)

But foreknowledge had nothing to do with election, God already knew who the elect are, before anything:

NKJ  Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (Eph 1:4 NKJ)


All this is implied by Paul, the context of Rom 8:29 or here doesn't mention the unsaved, because God didn't mandate who the  reprobate are, they do that to themselves, which was made clear in the beginning:

NKJ  Genesis 4:7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." (Gen 4:7 NKJ)


Or as our LORD said it, THEY closed their eyes and ears, not Him:

NKJ  Matthew 13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
 (Mat 13:15 NKJ)

This is Not Calvinism, its scripture truth.

Foreknowledge proves God's judgments  are just, all the saved need to know that for a truth, so they don't wonder about it:

NKJ  Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested." (Rev 15:4 NKJ)

Foreknowledge manifests God didn't elect unworthy people, but this sheds no light on why He selected them...that too is for our benefit, lest we grow prideful as the devil did.

Fact is, NONE of the elect deserve salvation, they all were born in sin, and sinned, falling short of the required perfection for life.

Finally, foreknowledge and predestination happened only to the elect, the non elect don't appear in the Rom 8:29 context. No doubt that is for our benefit also, lest we see just how evil these could be, some of whom may have been relatives and friends. No sense revealing just how evil they could be, its not necessary and would only upset us.

As for icons, that subject belongs in the other thread...I erred mentioning it here.


« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 01:59:04 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #207 on: September 05, 2010, 02:23:22 AM »
Re Mat 13:5

 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
 41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
 42 Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue;
 (Joh 12:40-42 NKJ)

In context this doesn't apply to all mankind, only the nation of Israel, the generation that saw Christ specifically:

 27 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."'
 28 "Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!"
 (Act 28:27-28 NKJ)

This does not contradict God doesn't reprobate, because election of Israel is without repentance:

 7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."
 9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a retribution for them;
 10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs for ever."
 11 So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
 (Rom 11:7-12 RSV)


 26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
 28 As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.
 30 Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
 (Rom 11:26-30 RSV)



Perhaps one day I will open a thread on the intermediate state.

Suffice to say, God will save His people, even if He must put them through hell first, for their rebellion:

 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:6 NKJ)

No salvation in Hades, they must wait to be raised up from it, in the day of the LORD Jesus:

 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)


That some of God's elect rise up from hades, into life, on judgment day, is negatively stated:

 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-15 NKJ)

Therefore some of them were in the book of life and not cast into the lake of fire.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 02:30:24 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #208 on: September 05, 2010, 03:13:08 AM »
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.

1)Yes, Seriously, but you answer if the Orthodox are arguing with or against Paul. Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?
We just think you're arguing your own non sequitur logic and your own goofy interpretations of Scripture, which I've not seen even among the Protestant churches I used to attend.  You might find by learning more about us that we don't place such value on syllogistic reasoning when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.  IOW, we even find your methodology questionable.

2)God didn't trust you, or me, with our salvation. He knows better. So God predestined all those He already knew were His, before the founding of the world, to be saved:

4 ...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself...
6 He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)
So, you're a Calvinist, then.  Why don't you go look for a thread where we've already discussed the subject of predestination vs. free will?

3)Icons diminish God to your psyche, if you speak to God picturing a finite image, then you engaging in idolatry having reduced the infinite God, into a finite form like unto a creature.

You cannot find one verse talking about icons, or describing their use, in the NT...because they didn't use them.
You've already argued this before.  Remember?  So why don't you take your iconoclasm to the thread where you first talked about it?  Let's keep this thread on topic, okay?

Prove its non sequitur,
I don't have to prove the obvious, but just to humor you, I will.  "a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable"  Profitability for doctrine does not imply comprehensibility--there's just no connection between the two concepts.  Your conclusions don't follow from your premises, therefore your logic is non sequitur.

describe the disconnection:[/b][/i]

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Compare the Bible in Basic English translation:

16 Every holy Writing which comes from God is of profit for teaching, for training, for guiding, for education in righteousness:
 17 So that the man of God may be complete, trained and made ready for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 BBE)

HINA in vs 17 is "so that", God gave scripture SO THAT the man of God be thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work.

So you cite different "translations" of the Bible to prove your point?  So what?  Why don't you use the New World Translation of the Bible?  I'm sure it's just as good as the BBE.  Produced as it is by one man, Professor S. H. Hooke, the BBE very well could be--and reads like--his interpretation of the Scriptures.  How do we know we can trust him?  Does the mere fact that he has the title "Professor" make him an authority on how to translate the Bible?

Teaching the Christian religion to others is a good work.

Therefore scripture completely equips the man of God to teach the Christian religion.

Prove that syllogistic logic unsound, otherwise you are just throwing dust into the air.

When I talked of syllogistic logic, I didn't speak of it to say that yours was unsound.  I just said that we Orthodox don't rely upon syllogistic logic alone to lead us to a correct interpretation of the Scriptures, which makes your extensive use of syllogistic logic unconvincing to us.  You need to argue from premises we accept.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 03:27:24 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Melodist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #209 on: September 05, 2010, 07:53:07 AM »
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumie
Quote
A fumi-e (Japanese: 踏み絵, fumi 'stepping-on' + e 'picture') was a likeness of Jesus or Mary upon which the religious authorities of the Tokugawa shogunate of Japan required suspected Christians to step on in order to prove that they were not members of that outlawed religion. The use of fumi-e began with the persecution of Christians in Nagasaki in 1629.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #210 on: September 05, 2010, 10:24:56 AM »
Quote
But you are arguing against Paul who said God inspired scripture in order that we be fully equipped for every good work:

You seriously think the Orthodox are arguing against St. Paul? After they have how many churches named for him?   ???

Quote
Knowing Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is all that is required by God, and that PETRA He reveals to every one of His children who will be saved in this life, He puts it in their mouth and heart and then they confess it publicly before the eyes of angels and men, and are saved:

I'm sorry, I don't understand this run-on sentence.

Quote
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

Icons are not an innovation. They are in the Scripture: we are made in the "image (eikon) and likeness of God;" the Lord instructed the Hebrews to build the Ark of the Covenant, complete with the gold cherubim on top of it; there were icons in the Temple; and the Orthodox believe that St. Luke was the first Christian iconographer, who painted the Theotokos from life. The proper use of icons is not a heresy in the least. Iconoclasm is.

I have nothing against you, Mr. Persson, but it seems you want to appoint yourself as the top vaildator of Christian teaching. Please be wary of this temptation. It can't lead anywhere good.

1)Yes, Seriously, but you answer if the Orthodox are arguing with or against Paul. Do the Orthodox agree that....

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine... 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable

b)God gave scripture in order that the man of God be completely equipped for every good work, which necessary includes the good work of teaching others the Christian faith.


So do the Orthodox say "yes" or "no" to #a and #b above?
We just think you're arguing your own non sequitur logic and your own goofy interpretations of Scripture, which I've not seen even among the Protestant churches I used to attend.  You might find by learning more about us that we don't place such value on syllogistic reasoning when it comes to interpreting the Scriptures.  IOW, we even find your methodology questionable.

2)God didn't trust you, or me, with our salvation. He knows better. So God predestined all those He already knew were His, before the founding of the world, to be saved:

4 ...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself...
6 He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
 (Eph 1:4-6 NKJ)
So, you're a Calvinist, then.  Why don't you go look for a thread where we've already discussed the subject of predestination vs. free will?

3)Icons diminish God to your psyche, if you speak to God picturing a finite image, then you engaging in idolatry having reduced the infinite God, into a finite form like unto a creature.

You cannot find one verse talking about icons, or describing their use, in the NT...because they didn't use them.
You've already argued this before.  Remember?  So why don't you take your iconoclasm to the thread where you first talked about it?  Let's keep this thread on topic, okay?

Prove its non sequitur,
I don't have to prove the obvious, but just to humor you, I will.  "a)Paul says all (or every) scripture is profitable for doctrine = none of it incomprehensible needing other material to make it profitable"  Profitability for doctrine does not imply comprehensibility--there's just no connection between the two concepts.  Your conclusions don't follow from your premises, therefore your logic is non sequitur.

describe the disconnection:[/b][/i]

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 NKJ)

Compare the Bible in Basic English translation:

16 Every holy Writing which comes from God is of profit for teaching, for training, for guiding, for education in righteousness:
 17 So that the man of God may be complete, trained and made ready for every good work. (2Ti 3:16-1 BBE)

HINA in vs 17 is "so that", God gave scripture SO THAT the man of God be thoroughly equipped for EVERY good work.

So you cite different "translations" of the Bible to prove your point?  So what?  Why don't you use the New World Translation of the Bible?  I'm sure it's just as good as the BBE.  Produced as it is by one man, Professor S. H. Hooke, the BBE very well could be--and reads like--his interpretation of the Scriptures.  How do we know we can trust him?  Does the mere fact that he has the title "Professor" make him an authority on how to translate the Bible?

Teaching the Christian religion to others is a good work.

Therefore scripture completely equips the man of God to teach the Christian religion.

Prove that syllogistic logic unsound, otherwise you are just throwing dust into the air.

When I talked of syllogistic logic, I didn't speak of it to say that yours was unsound.  I just said that we Orthodox don't rely upon syllogistic logic alone to lead us to a correct interpretation of the Scriptures, which makes your extensive use of syllogistic logic unconvincing to us.  You need to argue from premises we accept.

5624 ὠφέλιμος ophelimos "profitable" occurs 2 other times in scripture:

NKJ  1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable(ὠφέλιμος) for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come (1Ti 4:8 NKJ)

NKJ  Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable(ὠφέλιμος) to men. (Tit 3:8 NKJ)


For something to be profitable (ὠφέλιμος) it must have value. Incomprehensible language has no value:

11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.... (1Co 14:11 NKJ)

Therefore

28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent  (1Co 14:28 NKJ)

All things done in the church must edify, must be profitable to others, otherwise it should not be done.
16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen " at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?
 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified. (1Co 14:16-17 NKJ)


So comprehensibility has everything to do with language being profitable, if its incomprehensible, it is not profitable and may as well be silent, for none are edified by what does not inform them.


2)Scholars call this the most obscure verse in the OT.

LXE  Genesis 4:7 Hast thou not sinned if thou hast brought it rightly, but not rightly divided it? be still, to thee shall be his submission, and thou shalt rule over him.

NKJ  Genesis 4:7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

The Dead Sea Bible, the same:

QBE  Genesis 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not well, sin crouches at the door: and its desire is to have you, but you must rule over it."


I interpret them as essentially in agreement, but the lxx is paraphrase, interpreting Cain's sin as not bringing the sacrifice correctly, i.e., with a good heart, not dividing it correctly merely a symptom of a bad heart motive. Perhaps he is giving God a miserly portion? Or is his heart he is thinking this is a bribe that gets God on his side? Cain certainly proves his bad heart by slaying Abel his brother right after this. The LXX didn't make clear sin was to be ruled over, not Abel, so I used the NKJ which does.


3)I don't rely on logic alone either, I rely on God...but I have found God's truth is always sound:


LXE  Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the counsel of saints is understanding: for to know the law is the character of a sound mind.
 (Pro 9:10 LXE)

NKJ  2 Timothy 1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
 (2Ti 1:7 NKJ)


Given the spiritual realities taught in scripture, no part of God's revelation appears to be the product of human interpretation:

NKJ  2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
 (2Pe 1:20 NKJ)

What God revealed through the prophets "rings true" not only because of emotion, or faith, but because a sound analysis of all the premises, including relevant concepts, it all fits perfectly without self contradiction.

IN other words, God's truth conforms to facts as they are given throughout scripture. It presents a harmonious picture whereas human interpretation would be self contradictory, requiring compartmentalization to survive when details conflict with the picture provided. So human origin is proved by self contradiction, God never contradicts Himself. God's truth is always parsimonous, never going against details God revealed.

God's truth is like a diamond when held to the light of scripture, it conducts brilliant light no matter how it is turned, the facts in scripture never contradict it:

NKJ  James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. (Jam 1:17 NKJ)

So God's truth is always "sound," good and perfect, the individual pieces of the picture, at peace with each other all painting one self consistent picture:

God is the author of sound doctrine, where all the pieces of the puzzle are at peace with each other, the opposite of that is confusion.... and it is written:

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. (1Co 14:33 NKJ)


It follows from God granting us a "sound mind" via His Spirit, that He is the Arch type of Soundness, Master Logician extraordinaire and this invisible thing of God is manifest in His visible creation, the precise way all things work together.

NKJ  Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, (Rom 1:20 NKJ)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 10:56:39 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #211 on: September 05, 2010, 10:50:37 AM »
For something to be profitable (ὠφέλιμος) it must have value. Incomprehensible language has no value:
So you say.  You do realize that you're first drawing conclusions, and then pulling up Scriptural proof texts to prove your conclusions?  That's not how exegesis works.

I interpret them as essentially in agreement,
That's nice. :-\  It's become quite apparent that nobody here cares how you interpret the text, since we grant you no authority to speak to us.

3)I don't rely on logic alone either, I rely on God...but I have found God's truth, is always sound:
Then it's obvious you know not the difference, projecting your thoughts as you do into the mouth of God.

Given the spiritual realities taught in scripture, no part of God's revelation appears to be the product of human interpretation:

NKJ  2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
 (2Pe 1:20 NKJ)
Which totally undermines your arguments here.  We've shown many times over on this forum that what you are presenting IS your private interpretation of Scripture, and no amount of proof texting from the Bible is going to change that.  Are you going to address that problem, or are you just going to continue to bombard us with proof texts that, taken out of their context, become distorted to the point of being meaningless?

God is the author of sound logic, where all the pieces of the puzzle are at peace with each other, the opposite of that is confusion.... and it is written:


NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. (1Co 14:33 NKJ)
Then why are you so confusing?
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #212 on: September 05, 2010, 10:58:40 AM »
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumie
Quote
A fumi-e (Japanese: 踏み絵, fumi 'stepping-on' + e 'picture') was a likeness of Jesus or Mary upon which the religious authorities of the Tokugawa shogunate of Japan required suspected Christians to step on in order to prove that they were not members of that outlawed religion. The use of fumi-e began with the persecution of Christians in Nagasaki in 1629.

Does that really satisfy your intellectual needs? You aren't proving your beliefs are correct to me or anyone else. Its rather a commentary on how poorly you treat others.

No comment would have been better.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 10:59:07 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #213 on: September 05, 2010, 11:02:29 AM »
For something to be profitable (ὠφέλιμος) it must have value. Incomprehensible language has no value:
So you say.  You do realize that you're first drawing conclusions, and then pulling up Scriptural proof texts to prove your conclusions?  That's not how exegesis works.

Yes, I behave precisely as primitive Orthodox do, the fathers. They cited scripture for their beliefs, not each other.

I am a primitive Orthodox, that is why I do what they did, cite scripture proof texts to prove my beliefs are apostolical, and not a discovery of my own.


You cannot be serious comparing me to God, there is no contest. He is clear, perspicacious, I remain obscure...but I am trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture...learning from the Master as it were. I have far to go.

For example, I should only quote that part of the text I am citing...my habit of including the whole verse, doesn't communicate, people often miss the point in the text. Christ and His apostles cited only the precise words upon which their point was made, I will start doing the same...

So I thank you for reminding me, often people don't see the tree because of the forest...its time I specify the portion of the verse upon which my point rests...

« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 11:15:17 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #214 on: September 05, 2010, 01:03:32 PM »
Yes, I behave precisely as primitive Orthodox do, the fathers. They cited scripture for their beliefs, not each other.

I am a primitive Orthodox, that is why I do what they did, cite scripture proof texts to prove my beliefs are apostolical, and not a discovery of my own.

Does your calendar say 100 AD?   ;)

You cannot be serious comparing me to God, there is no contest. He is clear, perspicacious, I remain obscure...but I am trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture...learning from the Master as it were. I have far to go.

Sounds like you've gone far enough.

For example, I should only quote that part of the text I am citing...my habit of including the whole verse, doesn't communicate, people often miss the point in the text. Christ and His apostles cited only the precise words upon which their point was made, I will start doing the same...

That won't affect how others already view you and your "over the top" proof-texting of Scripture.

So I thank you for reminding me, often people don't see the tree because of the forest...its time I specify the portion of the verse upon which my point rests...

If only you could take off the self-imposed blindfold while wandering through the forest, running into trees and hopefully seeing the Uncreated Light which Saul saw on the way to Damascus....

Edited for content and context
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 01:05:21 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #215 on: September 05, 2010, 01:09:46 PM »
Apparently Alfred has never been to an Orthodox liturgy. I have to make this guess because if he had, he would have heard these prayers:

"Let us commend ourselves and one another, and all our lives, unto Christ our God."

and,

"Through the prayers of our holy Fathers, O Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy upon us and save us."

There we are. Prayers commending our lives to Christ, and asking Him to save us.

If that isn't asking for salvation, then I don't know what is. Then again, Alfred may insist that only he knows what would qualify as salvation. I hope he doesn't think he belongs to the First Church of Alfred. For then, Alfred would be the Savior, not Jesus. And that would be a serious problem, indeed.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #216 on: September 05, 2010, 02:25:25 PM »
For something to be profitable (ὠφέλιμος) it must have value. Incomprehensible language has no value:
So you say.  You do realize that you're first drawing conclusions, and then pulling up Scriptural proof texts to prove your conclusions?  That's not how exegesis works.

Yes, I behave precisely as primitive Orthodox do, the fathers. They cited scripture for their beliefs, not each other.

And yet, our beliefs are consistent with that of the Fathers, and yours are not. You are a major outlier. That the Fathers cited scripture is not incredible. Their agreement is what is incredible; their agreement is what makes them authoritative. We can cite the Fathers because they are consistent with scripture. Call it a proxy, if you like.

You don't agree with them, however. So why should be believe your interpretation when the universal church says you're wrong?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 02:30:07 PM by bogdan »

Offline Melodist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #217 on: September 05, 2010, 02:27:59 PM »
You contradict Paul's apostolic oral tradition that all who confess Christ is LORD publicly WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME...

You say all who reject the novelties Christians added to the apostolic faith centuries later, like icons, will be put to shame.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumie
Quote
A fumi-e (Japanese: 踏み絵, fumi 'stepping-on' + e 'picture') was a likeness of Jesus or Mary upon which the religious authorities of the Tokugawa shogunate of Japan required suspected Christians to step on in order to prove that they were not members of that outlawed religion. The use of fumi-e began with the persecution of Christians in Nagasaki in 1629.

Does that really satisfy your intellectual needs? You aren't proving your beliefs are correct to me or anyone else. Its rather a commentary on how poorly you treat others.

No comment would have been better.

You put the showing of honor to images in direct opposition to confessing Christ. It was through refusing to dishonor His image that they publically confessed Him and gave their lives for Him. The two are not in opposition to each other. You keep pushing the idea that all Orthodox are without Christ because the venerate icons and that they need to come to Him. "Novelties" like icons are a way of confessing Christ as Lord. I don't know how this post is a mistreatment of anyone. I apoloize if some kind of wrong ahs been done, but you took something that is an example of part of how one can confess Christ and put that means of confession into mutual exclusive opposition of the very thing it does. You're calling a means by which martyrs expressed their faith and held onto it in the face of death to be something in opposition to confessing Christ as Lord.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #218 on: September 05, 2010, 03:55:33 PM »
For something to be profitable (ὠφέλιμος) it must have value. Incomprehensible language has no value:
So you say.  You do realize that you're first drawing conclusions, and then pulling up Scriptural proof texts to prove your conclusions?  That's not how exegesis works.

Yes, I behave precisely as primitive Orthodox do, the fathers. They cited scripture for their beliefs, not each other.

I am a primitive Orthodox, that is why I do what they did, cite scripture proof texts to prove my beliefs are apostolical, and not a discovery of my own.
One cannot just claim to be primitive Orthodox and expect others to recognize his claim as valid.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #219 on: September 05, 2010, 04:03:08 PM »
Alfred, do you believe in perssonal infallibility?
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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #220 on: September 05, 2010, 08:04:22 PM »
Quote
You argue much of scripture isn't profitable for doctrine, that its incomprehensible without the consensus of the fathers weighing in, or the teaching of the Orthodox church.

Alfred, if the scriptures are completely comprehensible unto themselves, then why are there many different interpretations?

I can show you two people who feel deeply convicted about their beliefs about the "plain meaning" of any given verse, but have exactly the opposite belief. They both can have amazing exegesis, yet come to opposing conclusions.

The fact is, you have no objective foundation by which to judge anything. It's all about etymology, archaeology, and a feeling in your soul. Well congratulations, everyone from Jehovah's Witnesses to Quakers judge their beliefs by the same standards, and they all use more or less the same Bible.

Meanwhile, we use these things as well, but they are always held in check by the objective standard of St Vincent that DennyB mentions above. Since the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic, he doesn't lead different people to different interpretations. Since the Church is one living organism, it is not divided against itself. And because of all that, the tradition of the Church is trustworthy. That is why the Church Herself is the pillar and ground of truth, because a faithful member of the Church cannot deviate from the very narrow path She has marked out for us, by the Spirit's universal guidance.

Meanwhile, you—sitting there with just your Bible and whatever commentaries you deem correct—are not inherently or objectively trustworthy. You're one man meandering about after feelings and "convictions", without even the ability to discern whether these "convictions" are in fact true, because you have no point of reference outside of yourself.

Your argument is "special pleading," you are holding scripture up to a standard no literature achieves. Every statement on earth, regardless how simple, has its meaning disputed...there are lots of reasons for this, sometimes its profit, sometimes its hate, but often its just human nature to get things wrong.

What should really excite you, prove to you the Bible is inspired by God and His Spirit is laboring to overcome fallen human nature, is the level of Christian agreement as to what the Bible teaches.

Fact is, if you boil off all our disagreements, we all (mainline Christendom)  agree 80% or more, as to what scripture says.

That is divine, no other literature on the planet is as diverse---given the Bible is 66 books written over 1,500 time span on three different continents by very different people in three different languages..., yet in such phenomenal agreement.

Given that reality, the agreement as to what it says is INCREDIBLE, clearly there must be a divine reason why there is this level of agreement, when any other document far less complex and ancient, results in far more disagreement.

I find this strange coming from someone who refuses to look at history.
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #221 on: September 05, 2010, 08:10:00 PM »
Yes.  Alfred is never going to convince us of one iota of what he's saying as long as he starts from premises we don't accept.  We don't accept sola scriptura, so he will need to first convince us to embrace sola scriptura for us to find his constant proof texting from Scripture convincing.  And, ironically, he will need to convince us to embrace sola scriptura by citing authorities external to the Scriptures, and whom we recognize as speaking with authority.

He's also not going to convince us of anything as long as he keeps offending us by spouting his personal judgmental opinions of us.  One can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Fundamentally you must argue: 1)PeterTheAleut cannot understand scripture or 2)Paul is wrong believing scripture equips completely.

Given 2 Ti 3:16ff, which position exactly are you arguing.

Talking about outside authority is irrelevant, I am discussing scripture. You either 1)believe it; 2)Don't believe it; 3)Don't understand it.

Thanks in advance for making your position clear.

Your talking in so many directions,I really don't know what your point is,your the type of person who knows just enough to be dangerous, are you part of the Presbybaptistpenticostal denominations,or some other morphed denomination??

No.

Are you a one man denomination?
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

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Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #222 on: September 05, 2010, 08:23:27 PM »


Yes, I behave precisely as primitive Orthodox do, the fathers.

Can you name them? Who did you have in mind?


 
Quote
They cited scripture for their beliefs, not each other.

Do you read them? If not, then how could you really know? Did you know that Saint Hippolytus quotes Saint  Irenaeus? Did you know that Saint Irenaeus talks about Saints Polycarp and Papius?

They even quote non saints, or people that went awry later in life or the Church later in time saw as awry. Saint Cyprian quotes Tertullian, and some quote Origen.

Quote
I am a primitive Orthodox, that is why I do what they did, cite scripture proof texts to prove my beliefs are apostolical, and not a discovery of my own.

Do you know their rule of faith? Your rule of faith is not the same as theirs.



Quote
You cannot be serious comparing me to God, there is no contest. He is clear, perspicacious, I remain obscure...but I am trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture...learning from the Master as it were. I have far to go.

So Korah didn't? Are you saying Arius wasn't trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture? Are you saying that Sabellius wasn't trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture?

Are you saying that the circumcision party wasn't trying to learn how to communicate by studying how God did it in Scripture?




« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 08:51:50 PM by jnorm888 »
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #223 on: September 05, 2010, 08:47:52 PM »

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/polycarp.html (Saint Irenaeus mentions Saint Polycarp...at the bottom of the page)
Qoute:
"But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time, a man who was of much greater weight, and a more stedfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles, that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Dost thou know me? "I do know thee, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles."
Saint Irenaeus 180 A.D. Adv. Haer., III.3.4.




As seen from above, Saint Irenaeus used not only Scripture, but also the life of Saint Polycarp. Also, as seen from the quote above, Saint Polycarp used what he knew personally to get many heretics to come back to the Church. He didn't have to use Scripture!


Tertullian
http://www.forerunner.com/churchfathers/X0067__4._Tertullian_-_De_.html (TERTULLIAN - IV. THE CHAPLET, OR DE CORONA)
Quote:
"If, for these and other such rules, you insist
upon having positive Scripture injunction, you will find none. Tradition will be
held forth to you as the originator of them, custom as their strengthener, and
faith as their observer.
That reason will support tradition, and custom, and
faith, you will either yourself perceive, or learn from some one who has.
Meanwhile you will believe that there is some reason to which submission is
due."





We can go on to talk about the rule of faith. Tertullian, Saint Irenaeus, Saint Athanasius, and Saint Vincent of Lerins all talk about it.
"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #224 on: September 05, 2010, 10:42:00 PM »
Don't mind me...I'm just feeling the love
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)