Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 187823 times)

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Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1440 on: October 26, 2010, 08:44:26 PM »
And "Toys".

BTW, trivia time! Who remembers the source of the other "tonue" I quoted:  "Nanu, nanu!" ?
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1441 on: October 26, 2010, 08:45:19 PM »
"tongue" - sorry!  (I gotta get a real computer! lol!)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1442 on: October 26, 2010, 09:05:04 PM »
"Mork and Mindy."
My only weakness is, well, never mind

And you'll sleep, but they'll find you

Come back my dream into my arms, into my arms

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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1443 on: October 26, 2010, 09:06:07 PM »
Robin Williams

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1444 on: October 26, 2010, 09:43:47 PM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!

Is that a "tongue"...I got Christian friends who speak in tongues...in spite of my warning its all psychological manipulation...that's why they "teach" new converts "how to induce tongues."






I didnt read your entire post, but from what I saw you are in complete agreement with the Orthodox viewpoint on those matters. You would enjoy the writings of Fr. Serephim Rose ( God Willing, eventually to be made a Saint) His book
"Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" says the same thing as you by in large.

He was a deadly serious sort of guy. Here is a link to the Monastery Publishing House that we was associated with:

 http://www.stherman.com/Catalog/Writings_of_Father_Seraphim/living_the_orthodox_worldview_cd.htm

St. Herman of Alaska Press

I ordered the cd, I'll check it out, thanks.

Perhaps you are just being nice so the Mods wont shut the thread.  ;)  Never the less, you may like Fr. Seraphim very much. I would also like to recommend the series about the Elders of Optina, especially the life of Fr. Ambrose from the same web page ( St. Herman Press). 

I wasn't trying to be nice, I'm not a nice guy...you gotta be nice to try to be, and that ain't me.

His promo interested me...nothing in it about tongues...but he spoke of a spiritual life...and I think he might have an insight or two that I can benefit from.

I am anti icon, not anti Orthodox although I'm sure many of you say that is impossible. I like the early fathers, I don't see any icons in their apologetic writings at all.


There is no Christian Virtue that calls us to be "Nice". We are called to humility which is different, so that's all fine.

Fr. Seraphim is a good fit for you I beleive. So I am glad you are interested in what he has to say. His biography is a classic ( he passed away some years ago from a sudden aliment). He was very popular in Russia during the Soviet times. People would smuggle his books into the country. He is an American convert who helped to re-establish the Monastic Tradition here in the USA.

As I mentioned there are books that detail the 7th Ecumenical Council and how the Church painstakingly debated the value of Icons, their Scriptural basis and their origin in the Early Church and Church Fathers.

But I think you should not worry about that so much right now and certainly not argue over it. You should read/listen to what Fr. Seraphim has to say and maybe ask for his intercession on your behalf...

 
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1445 on: October 26, 2010, 11:52:03 PM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!

Is that a "tongue"...I got Christian friends who speak in tongues...in spite of my warning its all psychological manipulation...that's why they "teach" new converts "how to induce tongues."






I didnt read your entire post, but from what I saw you are in complete agreement with the Orthodox viewpoint on those matters. You would enjoy the writings of Fr. Serephim Rose ( God Willing, eventually to be made a Saint) His book
"Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" says the same thing as you by in large.

He was a deadly serious sort of guy. Here is a link to the Monastery Publishing House that we was associated with:

 http://www.stherman.com/Catalog/Writings_of_Father_Seraphim/living_the_orthodox_worldview_cd.htm

St. Herman of Alaska Press

I ordered the cd, I'll check it out, thanks.

Perhaps you are just being nice so the Mods wont shut the thread.  ;)  Never the less, you may like Fr. Seraphim very much. I would also like to recommend the series about the Elders of Optina, especially the life of Fr. Ambrose from the same web page ( St. Herman Press).  

I wasn't trying to be nice, I'm not a nice guy...you gotta be nice to try to be, and that ain't me.

His promo interested me...nothing in it about tongues...but he spoke of a spiritual life...and I think he might have an insight or two that I can benefit from.

I am anti icon, not anti Orthodox although I'm sure many of you say that is impossible. I like the early fathers, I don't see any icons in their apologetic writings at all.


There is no Christian Virtue that calls us to be "Nice". We are called to humility which is different, so that's all fine.

Fr. Seraphim is a good fit for you I beleive. So I am glad you are interested in what he has to say. His biography is a classic ( he passed away some years ago from a sudden aliment). He was very popular in Russia during the Soviet times. People would smuggle his books into the country. He is an American convert who helped to re-establish the Monastic Tradition here in the USA.

As I mentioned there are books that detail the 7th Ecumenical Council and how the Church painstakingly debated the value of Icons, their Scriptural basis and their origin in the Early Church and Church Fathers.

But I think you should not worry about that so much right now and certainly not argue over it. You should read/listen to what Fr. Seraphim has to say and maybe ask for his intercession on your behalf...

 

I'm certain I'll discover the flaws in his reasoning, and enlighten you.

What interested me is this:

the need to cultivate a loving, merciful, and forgiving heart, to be simple and innocent in one’s spiritual life; the need to have a conscious Orthodox Faith, an Orthodox worldview, so that one will not be easily influenced by worldly ways of think­ing and behaving; the need to be aware of the signs of the times and of the totalitarian demands that the modern world makes on one; the need to be down-to-earth and at the same time to have one’s heart in the other world with Christ; the need to nourish oneself with the Divine services, the Holy Mysteries, the Holy Scriptures, the Lives of Saints, and the writings of the Holy Fathers; the need to form the soul through the best artistic expressions of Christian culture

Of the items he mentioned, only the Holy Scriptures are used by me, in similar fashion. The martyrs inspire me, as do some of the Fathers, but the reference to Divine services, the Holy Mysteries...I am curious about his meaning.

Don't hold your breath thinking I'll convert, that isn't possible from his work. It would have been possible had any of you been able to contradict my  apologetic using scripture soundly. You failed, Scripture alone sways me, the possibility I might be inconsistent with scripture alone is deemed intolerable, nothing else matters to me, not even life itself.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 11:57:05 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1446 on: October 26, 2010, 11:56:57 PM »
Don't hold your breath thinking I'll convert, that isn't possible from his work. It would have been possible had any of you been able to contradict my  apologetic using scripture soundly. You failed, Scripture alone sways me, the idea I might not be consistent with scripture is intolerable, nothing else matters, not even life itself.

Proselytizing Bible Inerrancy has failed you and placing Bible Inerrancy above all other matters, including life itself, is a fallacy.

While I don't personally know much about Father Seraphim Rose, he is a source for you to derive a better understanding of the world around you.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1447 on: October 27, 2010, 12:00:05 AM »
Don't hold your breath thinking I'll convert, that isn't possible from his work. It would have been possible had any of you been able to contradict my  apologetic using scripture soundly. You failed, Scripture alone sways me, the idea I might not be consistent with scripture is intolerable, nothing else matters, not even life itself.

Proselytizing Bible Inerrancy has failed you and placing Bible Inerrancy above all other matters, including life itself, is a fallacy.

While I don't personally know much about Father Seraphim Rose, he is a source for you to derive a better understanding of the world around you.


then stood Moses at the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lord's side?  (Exo 32:26 LXE)

Me.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1448 on: October 27, 2010, 12:05:12 AM »
Don't hold your breath thinking I'll convert, that isn't possible from his work. It would have been possible had any of you been able to contradict my  apologetic using scripture soundly. You failed, Scripture alone sways me, the idea I might not be consistent with scripture is intolerable, nothing else matters, not even life itself.

Proselytizing Bible Inerrancy has failed you and placing Bible Inerrancy above all other matters, including life itself, is a fallacy.

While I don't personally know much about Father Seraphim Rose, he is a source for you to derive a better understanding of the world around you.


then stood Moses at the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lord's side?  (Exo 32:26 LXE)

Me.

Wow, are you really 3,500 years old; a descendant of the tribe of Levi and present when Moses destroyed the first copy of the 10 Commandments upon seeing the golden calf (which was subsequently destroyed)? 

If you are that old, it is sad that you rejected your Holy Father Moses for a 92 year old doctrine on Biblical Inerrancy.  tsk, tsk, tsk.
   ::)

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1449 on: October 27, 2010, 03:21:25 AM »
Lol, I just noticed the "primitive orthodox' label under Alf's avatar...priceless!  :laugh:

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1450 on: October 27, 2010, 08:55:22 AM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!

Is that a "tongue"...I got Christian friends who speak in tongues...in spite of my warning its all psychological manipulation...that's why they "teach" new converts "how to induce tongues."






I didnt read your entire post, but from what I saw you are in complete agreement with the Orthodox viewpoint on those matters. You would enjoy the writings of Fr. Serephim Rose ( God Willing, eventually to be made a Saint) His book
"Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" says the same thing as you by in large.

He was a deadly serious sort of guy. Here is a link to the Monastery Publishing House that we was associated with:

 http://www.stherman.com/Catalog/Writings_of_Father_Seraphim/living_the_orthodox_worldview_cd.htm

St. Herman of Alaska Press

I ordered the cd, I'll check it out, thanks.

Perhaps you are just being nice so the Mods wont shut the thread.  ;)  Never the less, you may like Fr. Seraphim very much. I would also like to recommend the series about the Elders of Optina, especially the life of Fr. Ambrose from the same web page ( St. Herman Press).  

I wasn't trying to be nice, I'm not a nice guy...you gotta be nice to try to be, and that ain't me.

His promo interested me...nothing in it about tongues...but he spoke of a spiritual life...and I think he might have an insight or two that I can benefit from.

I am anti icon, not anti Orthodox although I'm sure many of you say that is impossible. I like the early fathers, I don't see any icons in their apologetic writings at all.


There is no Christian Virtue that calls us to be "Nice". We are called to humility which is different, so that's all fine.

Fr. Seraphim is a good fit for you I beleive. So I am glad you are interested in what he has to say. His biography is a classic ( he passed away some years ago from a sudden aliment). He was very popular in Russia during the Soviet times. People would smuggle his books into the country. He is an American convert who helped to re-establish the Monastic Tradition here in the USA.

As I mentioned there are books that detail the 7th Ecumenical Council and how the Church painstakingly debated the value of Icons, their Scriptural basis and their origin in the Early Church and Church Fathers.

But I think you should not worry about that so much right now and certainly not argue over it. You should read/listen to what Fr. Seraphim has to say and maybe ask for his intercession on your behalf...

 

I'm certain I'll discover the flaws in his reasoning, and enlighten you.

What interested me is this:

the need to cultivate a loving, merciful, and forgiving heart, to be simple and innocent in one’s spiritual life; the need to have a conscious Orthodox Faith, an Orthodox worldview, so that one will not be easily influenced by worldly ways of think­ing and behaving; the need to be aware of the signs of the times and of the totalitarian demands that the modern world makes on one; the need to be down-to-earth and at the same time to have one’s heart in the other world with Christ; the need to nourish oneself with the Divine services, the Holy Mysteries, the Holy Scriptures, the Lives of Saints, and the writings of the Holy Fathers; the need to form the soul through the best artistic expressions of Christian culture

Of the items he mentioned, only the Holy Scriptures are used by me, in similar fashion. The martyrs inspire me, as do some of the Fathers, but the reference to Divine services, the Holy Mysteries...I am curious about his meaning.

Don't hold your breath thinking I'll convert, that isn't possible from his work. It would have been possible had any of you been able to contradict my  apologetic using scripture soundly. You failed, Scripture alone sways me, the possibility I might be inconsistent with scripture alone is deemed intolerable, nothing else matters to me, not even life itself.

The Eucharist for example, how can seeing it as the real body and blood of Christ trump the meaning its stands for Christ entire, ingesting His teachings and discipleship entire:

The Eucharist is both symbolic and mystical. Also, the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church is understood to be the genuine Body and Blood of Christ-OrthodoxWiki

As the bread from heaven, Christ is the true food and drink of immortality, but if you focus on the literal idea its His body, you lose the meaning Christ intended:

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)

Literally speaking, Christ denies eating His literal flesh is profitable. It is the spiritual meaning of the symbol, that profits...namely, one must be born again, derive your life sustenance from Him, the heavenly source.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 08:57:21 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1451 on: October 27, 2010, 09:07:05 AM »
Actually both are needed. We are both physical and a spiritual beings. If what you say is true than why be baptize physically as Christ commanded? Could we not just be cleansed in our hearts? ;)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1452 on: October 27, 2010, 09:13:57 AM »
Actually both are needed. We are both physical and a spiritual beings. If what you say is true than why be baptize physically as Christ commanded? Could we not just be cleansed in our hearts? ;)

Your analogy fails as we can get the benefit of baptism, without literal baptism:

"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Act 10:47 NKJ)

But we are baptized to fulfill all righteousness:

But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. (Mat 3:15 NKJ)

I'm not suggesting we dispense with the Eucharist, I am discussing what Christ meant it to be.

Jesus expressly says eating His literal flesh profits nothing, removing all reason for us to believe the species becomes literal flesh in any fashion.

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 09:24:05 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1453 on: October 27, 2010, 09:20:42 AM »
Gnostic ^^^^^^^ I believe this to be the 5th or 6th heresy you proposed.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1454 on: October 27, 2010, 09:29:32 AM »
Gnostic ^^^^^^^ I believe this to be the 5th or 6th heresy you proposed.

As Heresy is "An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs" and as it is Christ who establishes Christian beliefs, the interpretation that contradicts Jesus'  express statement His literal flesh does not profit, is the heresy.

So it is you who are teaching heresy by contradicting Christ:

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)

But I prefer to prove people heretical, leave calling them heretics to others.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 09:32:26 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1455 on: October 27, 2010, 09:40:18 AM »
Gnostic ^^^^^^^ I believe this to be the 5th or 6th heresy you proposed.

As Heresy is "An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs" and as it is Christ who establishes Christian beliefs, the interpretation that contradicts Jesus'  express statement His literal flesh does not profit, is the heresy.

So it is you who are teaching heresy by contradicting Christ:

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)

But I prefer to prove people heretical, leave calling them heretics to others.
Do not parse the Lord's address on the Eucharist since He said that we must partake of the whole body in 6:53-58 & it was called a "hard" saying in vs. 60. Then the Lord ultimately gives His command in vs. 63. From there, "For often as ye eat of theis bread & drink this cup, ye show the Lord's death til he come." (1 Corinthians 11:26).
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1456 on: October 27, 2010, 09:51:18 AM »
Gnostic ^^^^^^^ I believe this to be the 5th or 6th heresy you proposed.

As Heresy is "An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs" and as it is Christ who establishes Christian beliefs, the interpretation that contradicts Jesus'  express statement His literal flesh does not profit, is the heresy.

So it is you who are teaching heresy by contradicting Christ:

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)

But I prefer to prove people heretical, leave calling them heretics to others.

Knowledge is an activity of the brain. Do you actually believe salvation to be just spiritual?

Offline katherine 2001

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1457 on: October 27, 2010, 10:08:51 AM »
If Christ's flesh profited nothing, then why did He become Incarnate, live a sinless life, work many healings and other miracles, suffer the crucifixion, and then resurrect from the dead?  If the flesh profits nothing, why did He do all of this?  In fact, Alfred, what are you basing your salvation on?  If Christ's flesh profited nothing, then none of the acts above profited anything either and we are not saved.  Everyone of the acts listed above was very much done in the flesh (after all, that is the reason for the Incarnation, is it not?).  Also, did you notice that when a lot of disciples left Him at the end of this particular passage, Christ didn't run after them telling them to come back because they'd misunderstood Him?  In fact, He let them go, since they were not willing to believe what He said and He was respecting their right to decide to leave Him at the point since they were not willing to do what He had said they must do if they were going to be His followers. 

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1458 on: October 27, 2010, 10:09:59 AM »
Gnostic ^^^^^^^ I believe this to be the 5th or 6th heresy you proposed.

As Heresy is "An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs" and as it is Christ who establishes Christian beliefs, the interpretation that contradicts Jesus'  express statement His literal flesh does not profit, is the heresy.

So it is you who are teaching heresy by contradicting Christ:

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)

But I prefer to prove people heretical, leave calling them heretics to others.
Do not parse the Lord's address on the Eucharist since He said that we must partake of the whole body in 6:53-58 & it was called a "hard" saying in vs. 60. Then the Lord ultimately gives His command in vs. 63. From there, "For often as ye eat of theis bread & drink this cup, ye show the Lord's death til he come." (1 Corinthians 11:26).

Its not parsing to take His words as He meant them, spiritually.

Your insistence literal flesh profits, is expressly contradicted by Christ Himself.

Any objective reading shows Christ equates TRUE BELIEF with ingesting Him entire, not just believing He is a good teacher, but as Peter understood Christ, that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God, that is the life giving truth about Christ, the inner spirit of who Christ is, that gives eternal life:


 24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You come here?"
 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,`He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
 40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
 41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says,`I have come down from heaven '?"
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
 47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 48 "I am the bread of life.
 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
 (Joh 6:23-71 NKJ)


Peter understood Christ's meaning, true belief, accepting all about Christ, not just Him being a good teacher, but the life of this teaching, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 10:12:10 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1459 on: October 27, 2010, 10:17:08 AM »
If Christ's flesh profited nothing, then why did He become Incarnate, live a sinless life, work many healings and other miracles, suffer the crucifixion, and then resurrect from the dead?  If the flesh profits nothing, why did He do all of this?  In fact, Alfred, what are you basing your salvation on?  If Christ's flesh profited nothing, then none of the acts above profited anything either and we are not saved.  Everyone of the acts listed above was very much done in the flesh (after all, that is the reason for the Incarnation, is it not?).  Also, did you notice that when a lot of disciples left Him at the end of this particular passage, Christ didn't run after them telling them to come back because they'd misunderstood Him?  In fact, He let them go, since they were not willing to believe what He said and He was respecting their right to decide to leave Him at the point since they were not willing to do what He had said they must do if they were going to be His followers.  

A better question is "Why would Christ say eating His literal 'flesh profits nothing'", if He meant the opposite, that it does profit?

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)

As Jesus expressly says His words are spirit and life, not about flesh which profits nothing, He is NOT saying His incarnate body profits nothing, He is saying their idea they must eat His literal flesh "profits nothing," is wrong.

The statement in context applies only to the symbolism Christ is using in the context, its not applicable to other subjects, that would be taking His words out of context.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 10:28:21 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1460 on: October 27, 2010, 10:38:51 AM »
Gnostic ^^^^^^^ I believe this to be the 5th or 6th heresy you proposed.

As Heresy is "An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs" and as it is Christ who establishes Christian beliefs, the interpretation that contradicts Jesus'  express statement His literal flesh does not profit, is the heresy.

So it is you who are teaching heresy by contradicting Christ:

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)

But I prefer to prove people heretical, leave calling them heretics to others.
Do not parse the Lord's address on the Eucharist since He said that we must partake of the whole body in 6:53-58 & it was called a "hard" saying in vs. 60. Then the Lord ultimately gives His command in vs. 63. From there, "For often as ye eat of theis bread & drink this cup, ye show the Lord's death til he come." (1 Corinthians 11:26).

Its not parsing to take His words as He meant them, spiritually.

Your insistence literal flesh profits, is expressly contradicted by Christ Himself.

Any objective reading shows Christ equates TRUE BELIEF with ingesting Him entire, not just believing He is a good teacher, but as Peter understood Christ, that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God, that is the life giving truth about Christ, the inner spirit of who Christ is, that gives eternal life:


 24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You come here?"
 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,`He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
 40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
 41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says,`I have come down from heaven '?"
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
 47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 48 "I am the bread of life.
 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
 (Joh 6:23-71 NKJ)


Peter understood Christ's meaning, true belief, accepting all about Christ, not just Him being a good teacher, but the life of this teaching, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.




That Peter's interpretation of Christ's meaning is correct, is confirmed by verse 62

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 

They chose to treat Christ's words superficially, understand Him to be teaching cannablism, and not looking for their figurative meaning, which they customarily would do with  any "hard saying" of Scripture or any of their religious teachers.

They were not giving Christ the same consideration they normally give Rabbis.

So Christ says:

62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?


Meaning:

"You saw me feed thousands with a few loaves of bread and fish, you yourselves ate the food and were satisfied, yet you refuse to interpret my words figuratively, as you would any "hard saying" of a Rabbi, would watching me ascend into heaven be a big enough sign for you to interpret my words figuratively as you would the hard sayings of others?----that the words are spirit and they are life, and not about eating my literal flesh which would not profit at all?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 10:43:40 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1461 on: October 27, 2010, 11:20:26 AM »
Perhaps this discussion of the Eucharist could be split into a new thread?
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1462 on: October 27, 2010, 11:45:07 AM »
Perhaps this discussion of the Eucharist could be split into a new thread?

I leave that up to you folks...doesn't matter to me either way.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1463 on: October 27, 2010, 11:50:48 AM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!

Is that a "tongue"...I got Christian friends who speak in tongues...in spite of my warning its all psychological manipulation...that's why they "teach" new converts "how to induce tongues."






I didnt read your entire post, but from what I saw you are in complete agreement with the Orthodox viewpoint on those matters. You would enjoy the writings of Fr. Serephim Rose ( God Willing, eventually to be made a Saint) His book
"Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" says the same thing as you by in large.

He was a deadly serious sort of guy. Here is a link to the Monastery Publishing House that we was associated with:

 http://www.stherman.com/Catalog/Writings_of_Father_Seraphim/living_the_orthodox_worldview_cd.htm

St. Herman of Alaska Press

I ordered the cd, I'll check it out, thanks.

Perhaps you are just being nice so the Mods wont shut the thread.  ;)  Never the less, you may like Fr. Seraphim very much. I would also like to recommend the series about the Elders of Optina, especially the life of Fr. Ambrose from the same web page ( St. Herman Press).  

I wasn't trying to be nice, I'm not a nice guy...you gotta be nice to try to be, and that ain't me.

His promo interested me...nothing in it about tongues...but he spoke of a spiritual life...and I think he might have an insight or two that I can benefit from.

I am anti icon, not anti Orthodox although I'm sure many of you say that is impossible. I like the early fathers, I don't see any icons in their apologetic writings at all.


There is no Christian Virtue that calls us to be "Nice". We are called to humility which is different, so that's all fine.

Fr. Seraphim is a good fit for you I beleive. So I am glad you are interested in what he has to say. His biography is a classic ( he passed away some years ago from a sudden aliment). He was very popular in Russia during the Soviet times. People would smuggle his books into the country. He is an American convert who helped to re-establish the Monastic Tradition here in the USA.

As I mentioned there are books that detail the 7th Ecumenical Council and how the Church painstakingly debated the value of Icons, their Scriptural basis and their origin in the Early Church and Church Fathers.

But I think you should not worry about that so much right now and certainly not argue over it. You should read/listen to what Fr. Seraphim has to say and maybe ask for his intercession on your behalf...

 

I'm certain I'll discover the flaws in his reasoning, and enlighten you.

What interested me is this:

the need to cultivate a loving, merciful, and forgiving heart, to be simple and innocent in one’s spiritual life; the need to have a conscious Orthodox Faith, an Orthodox worldview, so that one will not be easily influenced by worldly ways of think­ing and behaving; the need to be aware of the signs of the times and of the totalitarian demands that the modern world makes on one; the need to be down-to-earth and at the same time to have one’s heart in the other world with Christ; the need to nourish oneself with the Divine services, the Holy Mysteries, the Holy Scriptures, the Lives of Saints, and the writings of the Holy Fathers; the need to form the soul through the best artistic expressions of Christian culture

Of the items he mentioned, only the Holy Scriptures are used by me, in similar fashion. The martyrs inspire me, as do some of the Fathers, but the reference to Divine services, the Holy Mysteries...I am curious about his meaning.

Don't hold your breath thinking I'll convert, that isn't possible from his work. It would have been possible had any of you been able to contradict my  apologetic using scripture soundly. You failed, Scripture alone sways me, the possibility I might be inconsistent with scripture alone is deemed intolerable, nothing else matters to me, not even life itself.

Who says we would take you  ;)

We all get where you are coming from at this point. A study of Fr. Seraphims writings has helped me and many others so I recommend him to you too.

IMHO, your strictness and attitude of devotion is in line with Orthodox piety especially the Monastic ethos. If I read a post by you correctly, you gave away most of your Worldly possessions. Many Christian groups would think that is nuts. However, we have seen this sort of thing before and though you may well be nuts, you would be nuts like us.

God may be teeing you up. Who knows? I think we should all get out of his way and allow him to continue leading you as he will.  

May I ask, what is your habit in terms of daily prayer? Have you used the Jesus Prayer? St. Paul calls us to ceaseless prayer (1 Thess. 5:1), I am sure you agree.

Here is a very good article which includes the Scriptural Roots of the Jesus Prayer:  http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7104


Simply pray:

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on me a sinner"
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1464 on: October 27, 2010, 11:56:16 AM »
Your insistence literal flesh profits, is expressly contradicted by Christ Himself.


The Eucharist is not "Literal Flesh". It is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus in the humble form of Bread and Wine.

There are specific instructions to our Priests that if the Bread and Wine in the Chalice turn into literal Flesh and Blood that it is to be considered the act of a Demon.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1465 on: October 27, 2010, 12:03:08 PM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!

Is that a "tongue"...I got Christian friends who speak in tongues...in spite of my warning its all psychological manipulation...that's why they "teach" new converts "how to induce tongues."






I didnt read your entire post, but from what I saw you are in complete agreement with the Orthodox viewpoint on those matters. You would enjoy the writings of Fr. Serephim Rose ( God Willing, eventually to be made a Saint) His book
"Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" says the same thing as you by in large.

He was a deadly serious sort of guy. Here is a link to the Monastery Publishing House that we was associated with:

 http://www.stherman.com/Catalog/Writings_of_Father_Seraphim/living_the_orthodox_worldview_cd.htm

St. Herman of Alaska Press

I ordered the cd, I'll check it out, thanks.

Perhaps you are just being nice so the Mods wont shut the thread.  ;)  Never the less, you may like Fr. Seraphim very much. I would also like to recommend the series about the Elders of Optina, especially the life of Fr. Ambrose from the same web page ( St. Herman Press).  

I wasn't trying to be nice, I'm not a nice guy...you gotta be nice to try to be, and that ain't me.

His promo interested me...nothing in it about tongues...but he spoke of a spiritual life...and I think he might have an insight or two that I can benefit from.

I am anti icon, not anti Orthodox although I'm sure many of you say that is impossible. I like the early fathers, I don't see any icons in their apologetic writings at all.


There is no Christian Virtue that calls us to be "Nice". We are called to humility which is different, so that's all fine.

Fr. Seraphim is a good fit for you I beleive. So I am glad you are interested in what he has to say. His biography is a classic ( he passed away some years ago from a sudden aliment). He was very popular in Russia during the Soviet times. People would smuggle his books into the country. He is an American convert who helped to re-establish the Monastic Tradition here in the USA.

As I mentioned there are books that detail the 7th Ecumenical Council and how the Church painstakingly debated the value of Icons, their Scriptural basis and their origin in the Early Church and Church Fathers.

But I think you should not worry about that so much right now and certainly not argue over it. You should read/listen to what Fr. Seraphim has to say and maybe ask for his intercession on your behalf...

 

I'm certain I'll discover the flaws in his reasoning, and enlighten you.

What interested me is this:

the need to cultivate a loving, merciful, and forgiving heart, to be simple and innocent in one’s spiritual life; the need to have a conscious Orthodox Faith, an Orthodox worldview, so that one will not be easily influenced by worldly ways of think­ing and behaving; the need to be aware of the signs of the times and of the totalitarian demands that the modern world makes on one; the need to be down-to-earth and at the same time to have one’s heart in the other world with Christ; the need to nourish oneself with the Divine services, the Holy Mysteries, the Holy Scriptures, the Lives of Saints, and the writings of the Holy Fathers; the need to form the soul through the best artistic expressions of Christian culture

Of the items he mentioned, only the Holy Scriptures are used by me, in similar fashion. The martyrs inspire me, as do some of the Fathers, but the reference to Divine services, the Holy Mysteries...I am curious about his meaning.

Don't hold your breath thinking I'll convert, that isn't possible from his work. It would have been possible had any of you been able to contradict my  apologetic using scripture soundly. You failed, Scripture alone sways me, the possibility I might be inconsistent with scripture alone is deemed intolerable, nothing else matters to me, not even life itself.

Who says we would take you  ;)

We all get where you are coming from at this point. A study of Fr. Seraphims writings has helped me and many others so I recommend him to you too.

IMHO, your strictness and attitude of devotion is in line with Orthodox piety especially the Monastic ethos. If I read a post by you correctly, you gave away most of your Worldly possessions. Many Christian groups would think that is nuts. However, we have seen this sort of thing before and though you may well be nuts, you would be nuts like us.

God may be teeing you up. Who knows? I think we should all get out of his way and allow him to continue leading you as he will.  

May I ask, what is your habit in terms of daily prayer? Have you used the Jesus Prayer? St. Paul calls us to ceaseless prayer (1 Thess. 5:1), I am sure you agree.

Here is a very good article which includes the Scriptural Roots of the Jesus Prayer:  http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7104


Simply pray:

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on me a sinner"

Actually, I gave up everything for Christ when I cried out to Him, begging He would be my LORD, in front of my sailor buddies, thinking..."I don't care what they think...I don't care about life itself...I want Christ to be my LORD."

Later, when I went to sell my few possessions, and they were few, much of that was stolen, when I had my back to it, distracted by people peppering me with questions...and my car, that I needed to get to work, I did not sell. AND I gave the money to the poor, to myself...it was only a few bucks, and I needed food and gas. So the entire exercise, was a complete failure...BUT I intended to do right...it just didn't happen that way.

I commune with God constantly, His warm presence is on the face of my inner man continually. Sometimes, on specific matters I'll make a request...but its when I read scripture, that He speaks back, via the words of the Bible. He gives the words in it, a special power to cut away whatever He doesn't like, pruning me so I bear more fruit:

 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
 (Heb 4:12-13 NKJ)

I don't use the same words in prayer, don't have a particular form to use, I just talk to my Father and my LORD, usually as a child, but sometimes, when its appropriate, as a repentant unworthy disciple does his Master, who has only done what was my duty to do.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 12:13:58 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1466 on: October 27, 2010, 12:19:36 PM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!

Is that a "tongue"...I got Christian friends who speak in tongues...in spite of my warning its all psychological manipulation...that's why they "teach" new converts "how to induce tongues."






I didnt read your entire post, but from what I saw you are in complete agreement with the Orthodox viewpoint on those matters. You would enjoy the writings of Fr. Serephim Rose ( God Willing, eventually to be made a Saint) His book
"Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" says the same thing as you by in large.

He was a deadly serious sort of guy. Here is a link to the Monastery Publishing House that we was associated with:

 http://www.stherman.com/Catalog/Writings_of_Father_Seraphim/living_the_orthodox_worldview_cd.htm

St. Herman of Alaska Press

I ordered the cd, I'll check it out, thanks.

Perhaps you are just being nice so the Mods wont shut the thread.  ;)  Never the less, you may like Fr. Seraphim very much. I would also like to recommend the series about the Elders of Optina, especially the life of Fr. Ambrose from the same web page ( St. Herman Press).  

I wasn't trying to be nice, I'm not a nice guy...you gotta be nice to try to be, and that ain't me.

His promo interested me...nothing in it about tongues...but he spoke of a spiritual life...and I think he might have an insight or two that I can benefit from.

I am anti icon, not anti Orthodox although I'm sure many of you say that is impossible. I like the early fathers, I don't see any icons in their apologetic writings at all.


There is no Christian Virtue that calls us to be "Nice". We are called to humility which is different, so that's all fine.

Fr. Seraphim is a good fit for you I beleive. So I am glad you are interested in what he has to say. His biography is a classic ( he passed away some years ago from a sudden aliment). He was very popular in Russia during the Soviet times. People would smuggle his books into the country. He is an American convert who helped to re-establish the Monastic Tradition here in the USA.

As I mentioned there are books that detail the 7th Ecumenical Council and how the Church painstakingly debated the value of Icons, their Scriptural basis and their origin in the Early Church and Church Fathers.

But I think you should not worry about that so much right now and certainly not argue over it. You should read/listen to what Fr. Seraphim has to say and maybe ask for his intercession on your behalf...

 

I'm certain I'll discover the flaws in his reasoning, and enlighten you.

What interested me is this:

the need to cultivate a loving, merciful, and forgiving heart, to be simple and innocent in one’s spiritual life; the need to have a conscious Orthodox Faith, an Orthodox worldview, so that one will not be easily influenced by worldly ways of think­ing and behaving; the need to be aware of the signs of the times and of the totalitarian demands that the modern world makes on one; the need to be down-to-earth and at the same time to have one’s heart in the other world with Christ; the need to nourish oneself with the Divine services, the Holy Mysteries, the Holy Scriptures, the Lives of Saints, and the writings of the Holy Fathers; the need to form the soul through the best artistic expressions of Christian culture

Of the items he mentioned, only the Holy Scriptures are used by me, in similar fashion. The martyrs inspire me, as do some of the Fathers, but the reference to Divine services, the Holy Mysteries...I am curious about his meaning.

Don't hold your breath thinking I'll convert, that isn't possible from his work. It would have been possible had any of you been able to contradict my  apologetic using scripture soundly. You failed, Scripture alone sways me, the possibility I might be inconsistent with scripture alone is deemed intolerable, nothing else matters to me, not even life itself.

Who says we would take you  ;)

We all get where you are coming from at this point. A study of Fr. Seraphims writings has helped me and many others so I recommend him to you too.

IMHO, your strictness and attitude of devotion is in line with Orthodox piety especially the Monastic ethos. If I read a post by you correctly, you gave away most of your Worldly possessions. Many Christian groups would think that is nuts. However, we have seen this sort of thing before and though you may well be nuts, you would be nuts like us.

God may be teeing you up. Who knows? I think we should all get out of his way and allow him to continue leading you as he will.  

May I ask, what is your habit in terms of daily prayer? Have you used the Jesus Prayer? St. Paul calls us to ceaseless prayer (1 Thess. 5:1), I am sure you agree.

Here is a very good article which includes the Scriptural Roots of the Jesus Prayer:  http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7104


Simply pray:

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on me a sinner"

Actually, I gave up everything for Christ when I cried out to Him, begging He would be my LORD, in front of my sailor buddies, thinking..."I don't care what they think...I don't care about life itself...I want Christ to be my LORD."

Later, when I went to sell my few possessions, and they were few, much of that was stolen, when I had my back to it, distracted by people peppering me with questions...and my car, that I needed to get to work, I did not sell. AND I gave the money to the poor, to myself...it was only a few bucks, and I needed food and gas. So the entire exercise, was a complete failure...BUT I intended to do right...it just didn't happen that way.

I commune with God constantly, His warm presence is on the face of my inner man continually. Sometimes, on specific matters I'll make a request...but its when I read scripture, that He speaks back, via the words of the Bible. He gives the words in it, a special power to cut away whatever He doesn't like, pruning me so I bear more fruit:

 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
 (Heb 4:12-13 NKJ)

I don't use the same words in prayer, don't have a particular form to use, I just talk to my Father and my LORD, usually as a child, but sometimes, when its appropriate, as a repentant unworthy disciple does his Master, who has only done what was my duty to do.


You must not have kids.  :)

I see nothing of failure in what you did. Like I said, the example we are given of the Monastic Orthodox  Life may resonate with you.

One major element however, is ceaseless prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ , Son of God, Have Mercy on me a Sinner."

"The key to a happy life, is never to have kids"
Bernie Mac
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1467 on: October 27, 2010, 12:21:54 PM »
Well whatever you  do (^ #1465) maybe good for you but since you cannot speak for all in the eyes of God who knows the needs of all who call on Him and for each person the healing varies & is received in faith by the individual as he/she can best cooperate with the Lord's grace. We do not assume personal justification of the individual at the onset but know that God will justify the individual when His salvation fulfills everything; although we know of the saints, no saint ever would have assumed justified salvation in their earthly life but abided in love, faith, & hope (as St.Paul teaches).
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Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1468 on: October 27, 2010, 02:22:35 PM »
If Christ's flesh profited nothing, then why did He become Incarnate, live a sinless life, work many healings and other miracles, suffer the crucifixion, and then resurrect from the dead?  If the flesh profits nothing, why did He do all of this?  In fact, Alfred, what are you basing your salvation on?  If Christ's flesh profited nothing, then none of the acts above profited anything either and we are not saved.  Everyone of the acts listed above was very much done in the flesh (after all, that is the reason for the Incarnation, is it not?).  Also, did you notice that when a lot of disciples left Him at the end of this particular passage, Christ didn't run after them telling them to come back because they'd misunderstood Him?  In fact, He let them go, since they were not willing to believe what He said and He was respecting their right to decide to leave Him at the point since they were not willing to do what He had said they must do if they were going to be His followers.  

A better question is "Why would Christ say eating His literal 'flesh profits nothing'", if He meant the opposite, that it does profit?

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)

As Jesus expressly says His words are spirit and life, not about flesh which profits nothing, He is NOT saying His incarnate body profits nothing, He is saying their idea they must eat His literal flesh "profits nothing," is wrong.

The statement in context applies only to the symbolism Christ is using in the context, its not applicable to other subjects, that would be taking His words out of context.

Interesting. So when the verse states
Quote
It is the Spirit who gives life
What is that life? Is it A. life with a body and soul B. life without a body. c. spiritual correctness is all there is and the body is shed. D.You will not gain life by eating flesh alone but spiritual correctness will give the body life. E. staying out of hell requires us to know god only in spirit. f. eating gods flesh and blood will open heavens door.

Offline JLatimer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1469 on: October 27, 2010, 04:13:33 PM »
Jesus expressly says eating His literal flesh profits nothing, removing all reason for us to believe the species becomes literal flesh in any fashion.

Jesus says no such thing, expressly or otherwise. You are distorting the meaning of John 6:63 by reading your own interpretation into it (eisegesis) rather than letting the text say what it means (exegesis).

When our Lord says that "the flesh profits nothing", He is not referring to His Flesh, as is clear from verses 53-57:
Quote
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
Obviously, Jesus is not saying, 'My flesh profits nothing'.

What He is referring to are those who petition Him, "Lord, give us this bread always" (verse 34), because they think only to satisfy their bodily appetites (verse 26); who ask, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" (verse 52) because they do not believe "flesh" can be anything other than what you call "Literal Flesh", just as they do not understand how He came to Capernaum without a boat (verse 25).

In other words, the real target of Jesus' saying, "the flesh profits nothing" is you, Alfred, and all those who, like you, come to Jesus' words with carnal (fleshly) minds.

Jesus says, "the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world" (verse 51 [note, btw, the future tense]), but you say, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

You think, 'He must not really mean his flesh, but his words,' but Jesus cuts off your unprofitable speculation: "My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed" (verse 55).

You want to drive a wedge between the spiritual and the physical, between Christ's words and His flesh, because your carnal mind refuses to believe that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14). Like the Jews, you search the Scriptures, thinking that in them you have eternal life, yet you refuse to come to Jesus, that you might have life (John 5:39-40), "for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men" (Matthew 16:23).

My advice to you is to listen to the Holy Apostle Paul when he says "do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Romans 12:2).

You might find this pair of podcasts helpful: John 6:63 And The Eucharist [Part 1], and [Part 2].
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 04:21:04 PM by JLatimer »
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1470 on: October 27, 2010, 07:24:36 PM »
If Christ's flesh profited nothing, then why did He become Incarnate, live a sinless life, work many healings and other miracles, suffer the crucifixion, and then resurrect from the dead?  If the flesh profits nothing, why did He do all of this?  In fact, Alfred, what are you basing your salvation on?  If Christ's flesh profited nothing, then none of the acts above profited anything either and we are not saved.  Everyone of the acts listed above was very much done in the flesh (after all, that is the reason for the Incarnation, is it not?).  Also, did you notice that when a lot of disciples left Him at the end of this particular passage, Christ didn't run after them telling them to come back because they'd misunderstood Him?  In fact, He let them go, since they were not willing to believe what He said and He was respecting their right to decide to leave Him at the point since they were not willing to do what He had said they must do if they were going to be His followers.  

A better question is "Why would Christ say eating His literal 'flesh profits nothing'", if He meant the opposite, that it does profit?

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)

As Jesus expressly says His words are spirit and life, not about flesh which profits nothing, He is NOT saying His incarnate body profits nothing, He is saying their idea they must eat His literal flesh "profits nothing," is wrong.

The statement in context applies only to the symbolism Christ is using in the context, its not applicable to other subjects, that would be taking His words out of context.

Interesting. So when the verse states
Quote
It is the Spirit who gives life
What is that life? Is it A. life with a body and soul B. life without a body. c. spiritual correctness is all there is and the body is shed. D.You will not gain life by eating flesh alone but spiritual correctness will give the body life. E. staying out of hell requires us to know god only in spirit. f. eating gods flesh and blood will open heavens door.

The context answers that, eternal life.

Christ is denying any can follow Him as a good teacher, He demands more, they must ingest Him entire, including the claim of divinity, that He is the Christ, the Son of God, the Bread that came down from heaven...

Peter understood that, and confessed these words Christ spoke were words of eternal life:

 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 (Joh 6:68-69 NKJ)

The context supplies the interpretation, Christ's words aren't about eating literal flesh, that profits nothing, they are about eternal life, figurative speech meaning "you must believe in Christ's hidden nature that is incarnate, that He is the Son of God, not just in Him as a good teacher."

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1471 on: October 27, 2010, 07:39:00 PM »
You're just prooftexting to prove your point while ignoring other Scripture verses that would disagree with you.

But of course that's the folly of Sola Scriptura.
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Offline JLatimer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1472 on: October 27, 2010, 08:31:26 PM »
The context supplies the interpretation

Verily. Which is why Christ's saying "the flesh profits nothing" cannot, as you would have it, be referring to Christ's Flesh, His Body and Blood, to which Christ has been referring throughout the chapter as being quite profitable.

figurative speech

If Christ was speaking metaphorically when He said, "the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world", then why wouldn't He have just said, 'I don't mean literal flesh; I mean my teachings', when the Jews asked, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"? Instead, as if to dispel any idea that He is using "figurative speech", He says, "My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed". Not only does our Lord not back down from what he has been saying that has so scandalized the Jews (and you), He intensifies it.

"you must believe in Christ's hidden nature that is incarnate, that He is the Son of God, not just in Him as a good teacher."
And just where are you getting that?

-----

Furthermore - "the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world" - why the future tense?

The most obvious explanation is that He is referring to the institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper, which has not yet occurred.

How do you explain it, Alfred?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 08:44:24 PM by JLatimer »
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1473 on: October 27, 2010, 08:43:28 PM »
Obviously, Jesus is not saying, 'My flesh profits nothing'.

What He is referring to are those who petition Him, "Lord, give us this bread always" (verse 34)

Incorrect, you have us jumping over the context to verse 34, rather the referent is "eats my flesh" in verse 56, and THAT "hard saying" is carried forward by the "this" in vss 58, 60, 61.

56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 (Joh 6:56-63 NKJ)

"The flesh profits nothing" is referring to their objection to "eat my flesh", therefore Christ is saying literally eating it profits nothing.

This is confirmed by "it is the Spirit who gives life," that refers to the blood in the context, "the life of the flesh is in the blood" (cp Gen 9:4, Lev 17:11 &c.)
One must believe Christ is the bread that came down  from Heaven, the incarnate Son of God, to have life in themselves. This inner life of Christ, clothed in the flesh, is what gives eternal life. Eating his literal flesh would profit them nothing.

That belief in Jesus as God the Son is what they must ingest for eternal life, is clear in context:

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 (Joh 6:63-69 NKJ)

Peter and his fellow disciples understood, they weren't like the unbelievers, they believed Jesus' claims of divinity, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

If Jesus was saying "there are some of you who don't believe you must eat my literal flesh," then Peter's response is inexplicable, babbling, completely off topic. Then Christ is looking for belief in cannibalism, and Peter is babbling about His Deity.

As it is impossible Peter didn't understand Christ, but the unbelieving Jews who deserted Him did, your interpretation fails.


As for your last, "bread" is FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE, not proving your point these words are meant literally.

AND the fact Christ says His flesh will be given for the life of the world, PROVES He didn't mean they should eat it then, preventing it being given.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 09:02:36 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1474 on: October 27, 2010, 09:08:13 PM »
You're just prooftexting to prove your point while ignoring other Scripture verses that would disagree with you.

But of course that's the folly of Sola Scriptura.

Actually, other scriptures confirm the Eucharist doesn't become the real body and blood of Christ. The Arch-type is the first Eucharist, officiated by the highest priest we have, Jesus Christ Himself, therefore everything was done perfectly, yet after the consecration, the wine remained wine:

 27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
 28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."
 (Mat 26:27-29 NKJ)

Moreover,

NKJ  1 Corinthians 11:24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me." (1Co 11:24 NKJ)

A memory (remembrance) is not the thing being remembered.

Therefore the bread and wine symbolize Christ's body and blood.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1475 on: October 27, 2010, 09:15:54 PM »
Actually both are needed. We are both physical and a spiritual beings. If what you say is true than why be baptize physically as Christ commanded? Could we not just be cleansed in our hearts? ;)

Your analogy fails as we can get the benefit of baptism, without literal baptism:

"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Act 10:47 NKJ)

But we are baptized to fulfill all righteousness:

But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. (Mat 3:15 NKJ)

I'm not suggesting we dispense with the Eucharist, I am discussing what Christ meant it to be.

Jesus expressly says eating His literal flesh profits nothing, removing all reason for us to believe the species becomes literal flesh in any fashion.

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)


Then Baptism becomes a superfluous act. Christ would not institute something that has no bearing on either one's life or Salvation.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1476 on: October 27, 2010, 09:21:24 PM »
Obviously, Jesus is not saying, 'My flesh profits nothing'.

What He is referring to are those who petition Him, "Lord, give us this bread always" (verse 34)

Incorrect, you have us jumping over the context to verse 34, rather the referent is "eats my flesh" in verse 56, and THAT "hard saying" is carried forward by the "this" in vss 58, 60, 61.

56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 (Joh 6:56-63 NKJ)

"The flesh profits nothing" is referring to their objection to "eat my flesh", therefore Christ is saying literally eating it profits nothing.

This is confirmed by "it is the Spirit who gives life," that refers to the blood in the context, "the life of the flesh is in the blood" (cp Gen 9:4, Lev 17:11 &c.)
One must believe Christ is the bread that came down  from Heaven, the incarnate Son of God, to have life in themselves. This inner life of Christ, clothed in the flesh, is what gives eternal life. Eating his literal flesh would profit them nothing.

That belief in Jesus as God the Son is what they must ingest for eternal life, is clear in context:

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 (Joh 6:63-69 NKJ)

Peter and his fellow disciples understood, they weren't like the unbelievers, they believed Jesus' claims of divinity, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

If Jesus was saying "there are some of you who don't believe you must eat my literal flesh," then Peter's response is inexplicable, babbling, completely off topic. Then Christ is looking for belief in cannibalism, and Peter is babbling about His Deity.

As it is impossible Peter didn't understand Christ, but the unbelieving Jews who deserted Him did, your interpretation fails.


As for your last, "bread" is FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE, not proving your point these words are meant literally.

AND the fact Christ says His flesh will be given for the life of the world, PROVES He didn't mean they should eat it then, preventing it being given.



If we are to hold to your interpretation,then there was no need for Jesus to use such literal language to explain  simple belief, your stance is an empty cistern.

Offline JLatimer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1477 on: October 27, 2010, 09:26:02 PM »
Obviously, Jesus is not saying, 'My flesh profits nothing'.

What He is referring to are those who petition Him, "Lord, give us this bread always" (verse 34)

Incorrect, you have us jumping over the context to verse 34

No, what I have us doing is looking at the entire context, beginning at John 1:1 (even better would be at Genesis 1:1). The central teaching of St. John's Gospel is

Quote from: John 1:1,14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
...
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

This Flesh of the Savior is infinitely profitable: Christ says that He will give His Flesh for the life of the world. Yet against this clear teaching of Scripture you have blasphemously claimed that Christ's Flesh profits nothing.

This is because you do not understand Christ's teaching about His Flesh spiritually, but carnally. And it is this carnality, this fleshiness of mind of which Jesus says, "the flesh profits nothing".

Peter and his fellow disciples understood, they weren't like the unbelievers, they believed Jesus' claims of divinity, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Which is why they, unlike you, understand the importance of Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist.

You do not understand the Incarnation in which you say it is so essential to believe: that the Only-Begotten Son and Eternal Logos of God has truly united the Divine nature to human nature in His Person, so that His Flesh is truly God's Flesh.

Why don't you tell us, Alfred, what Jesus means when He says, "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?"?
1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1478 on: October 27, 2010, 09:29:09 PM »
Obviously, Jesus is not saying, 'My flesh profits nothing'.

What He is referring to are those who petition Him, "Lord, give us this bread always" (verse 34)

Incorrect, you have us jumping over the context to verse 34

No, what I have us doing is looking at the entire context, beginning at John 1:1 (even better would be at Genesis 1:1). The central teaching of St. John's Gospel is...


Grammar rules, the pronoun THIS has a referent, and its not in verse 34, its in verse 56 as I proved.

You called my exegesis eisegesis, and then ignore the grammar and syntax and context, to superimpose your interpretation, the very definition of eisegesis.

Treat the grammar, the point of my argument...don't evade it...

Lets not jump to Genesis, focus please.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 09:30:44 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1479 on: October 27, 2010, 09:39:59 PM »
Actually both are needed. We are both physical and a spiritual beings. If what you say is true than why be baptize physically as Christ commanded? Could we not just be cleansed in our hearts? ;)

Your analogy fails as we can get the benefit of baptism, without literal baptism:

"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (Act 10:47 NKJ)

But we are baptized to fulfill all righteousness:

But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. (Mat 3:15 NKJ)

I'm not suggesting we dispense with the Eucharist, I am discussing what Christ meant it to be.

Jesus expressly says eating His literal flesh profits nothing, removing all reason for us to believe the species becomes literal flesh in any fashion.

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Joh 6:63 NKJ)


Then Baptism becomes a superfluous act. Christ would not institute something that has no bearing on either one's life or Salvation.

Did this baptism have a bearing on Christ's salvation?

14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.
 (Mat 3:14-15 NKJ)

If the archetype for the entire church, does not bear on Christ's salvation, then how does it bear on ours, it being from the original.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1480 on: October 27, 2010, 09:44:21 PM »
Obviously, Jesus is not saying, 'My flesh profits nothing'.

What He is referring to are those who petition Him, "Lord, give us this bread always" (verse 34)

Incorrect, you have us jumping over the context to verse 34, rather the referent is "eats my flesh" in verse 56, and THAT "hard saying" is carried forward by the "this" in vss 58, 60, 61.

56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 (Joh 6:56-63 NKJ)

"The flesh profits nothing" is referring to their objection to "eat my flesh", therefore Christ is saying literally eating it profits nothing.

This is confirmed by "it is the Spirit who gives life," that refers to the blood in the context, "the life of the flesh is in the blood" (cp Gen 9:4, Lev 17:11 &c.)
One must believe Christ is the bread that came down  from Heaven, the incarnate Son of God, to have life in themselves. This inner life of Christ, clothed in the flesh, is what gives eternal life. Eating his literal flesh would profit them nothing.

That belief in Jesus as God the Son is what they must ingest for eternal life, is clear in context:

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 (Joh 6:63-69 NKJ)

Peter and his fellow disciples understood, they weren't like the unbelievers, they believed Jesus' claims of divinity, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

If Jesus was saying "there are some of you who don't believe you must eat my literal flesh," then Peter's response is inexplicable, babbling, completely off topic. Then Christ is looking for belief in cannibalism, and Peter is babbling about His Deity.

As it is impossible Peter didn't understand Christ, but the unbelieving Jews who deserted Him did, your interpretation fails.


As for your last, "bread" is FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE, not proving your point these words are meant literally.

AND the fact Christ says His flesh will be given for the life of the world, PROVES He didn't mean they should eat it then, preventing it being given.



If we are to hold to your interpretation,then there was no need for Jesus to use such literal language to explain  simple belief, your stance is an empty cistern.

What literal language, this:

 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." (Joh 6:58 NKJ)

Was Jesus talking about literal bread, that  you could bake or boil etc like manna from heaven?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 09:48:08 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1481 on: October 27, 2010, 09:54:26 PM »
For someone so committed to the notion of the "clear meaning" of Scripture, it really doesn't get much clearer than this (and the context of the prior and later verses proves it's the real body and blood of Christ) --

John 6:55-56
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Alfred, you can do all the gymnastics you want with what Christ is saying here, but His meaning is quite clear when you read it (and when you apply the context), which is proven by how from the beginning the Church that was there (thanks for at least admitting this was the Orthodox Church!) believed that the Eucharist was the actual body and blood of Christ, and treated it accordingly.  

There are several verses in this chapter where Christ speaks of the benefit of his flesh and how his flesh and blood are real food for us (in the Eucharist, i.e. beneficial), yet for one verse you want us to throw this all out saying all those verses must mean something else . It makes more sense to take the one verse you're trying to justify your thoughts with ("the flesh profiteth nothing") and ask what else that can mean based on what Christ has said numerous times, both here and elsewhere -- that His flesh and blood do profit us in the ways they were intended.  
« Last Edit: October 27, 2010, 10:00:24 PM by Thankful »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1482 on: October 27, 2010, 09:56:50 PM »
For someone so committed to the notion of the "clear meaning" of Scripture, it really doesn't get much clearer than this (and the context of the prior and later verses proves it's the real body and blood of Christ) --

John 6:55-56
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Alfred, you can do all the gymnastics you want with what Christ is saying here, but His meaning is quite clear, which is proven by how from the beginning the Church that was there believed that the Eucharist was the actual body and blood of Christ, and treated it accordingly.  

There are several verses in this chapter where Christ speaks of the benefit of his flesh and how his flesh and blood are real food for us (in the Eucharist, i.e. beneficial), yet for one verse you want us to throw this all out saying all those versus must mean something else . It makes more sense to take the one verse you're trying to justify your thoughts with ("the flesh profiteth nothing") and ask what else that can mean based on what Christ has said numerous times, both here and elsewhere -- that His flesh and blood are do profit us in the ways they were intended.  

If these Jews had murdered Christ, ate His flesh literally, how would they be dwelling in Him.

It seems He would be in their stomachs.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1483 on: October 27, 2010, 10:01:35 PM »
If these Jews had murdered Christ, ate His flesh literally, how would they be dwelling in Him.

It seems He would be in their stomachs.

Yeah, that would be gross.  But it still doesn't invalidate what Christ Himself said. 

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1484 on: October 27, 2010, 10:04:55 PM »
If these Jews had murdered Christ, ate His flesh literally, how would they be dwelling in Him.

It seems He would be in their stomachs.

Yeah, that would be gross.  But it still doesn't invalidate what Christ Himself said. 

Correct, it doesn't invalidate what Christ said.

It invalidates what YOU said, that this is all literal.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)