Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 198315 times)

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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1395 on: October 26, 2010, 01:37:22 AM »
Meanwhile he picks and chooses whatever he likes [read: whatever the Holy Spirit "tells" him to pick] from a host of modern ideologies and pieces them together with the exegesis that best suits his fancy.

There are sizable Churches built on the flawed foundation of Biblical Inerrancy (which I'm convinced that no one really knows about at those Churches); however, just because Alfred happens to attend one doesn't mean that that Church has accepted Alfred; after all, he is in danger of being removed from their membership rolls.

But Alfred's faith is the True Faith. Sure, he's the only one in this world hold who holds his exact set of beliefs, but hey, God isn't picky. As long as you think Jesus is a cool guy and the Bible is pretty neat, you're all set. (Except you dirty Orthodox and Catholics, you cannabalistic idolators.)

Alfred is no Apostle of those man-made ideologies even if he has proclaimed himself to be one.

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1396 on: October 26, 2010, 01:37:35 AM »
How dare you call Alfred's religious smörgåsbord into question?!

Alfred accuses us of being nebulous, yet we only accept what the Church has given us to accept.

Meanwhile he picks and chooses whatever he likes [read: whatever the Holy Spirit "tells" him to pick] from a host of modern ideologies and pieces them together with the exegesis that best suits his fancy. It's an old trick, and it's why he has to contend with 30000+ denominations that all claim to be true—on the Bible's authority—yet disagree on core dogma. Talk about God being the author of confusion.

But Alfred's faith is the True Faith. Sure, he's the only one in this world hold who holds his exact set of beliefs, but hey, God isn't picky. As long as you think Jesus is a cool guy and the Bible is pretty neat, you're all set. (Except you dirty Orthodox and Catholics, you cannabalistic idolators.)

Mainline Christendom (including Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) agree on the basics...in fact, the late Dr Walter Martin once said during a Melodyland speech I attended, that some students calculated the level of agreement to be about 80%.

Cults disagree, and I blame the Orthodox for all the cults. You guys were first, Christian unity was yours to screw up...and that you did.

So every schism can be rightly traced back to you, a kind of "schismatic succession."

LOL. So schism is the fault of the consistent ones, not the ones who broke away? The logic of Perssonism never ceases to amaze.  :laugh:  :laugh:

But since we are the original Church—"the first", as you say—why don't we take a look at St Ignatius of Antioch, who was taught by St John. What does he have to say about the authority of the Church? (Surely the Church did not dissolve away only 8 years after St John's death.)

What we disagree on is not insignificant. I'm sure Arius was probably more Orthodox than a lot of "Christians" running around today. Origen is right on more than 80%, yet he was still anathematized. It doesn't matter. You either possess the fulness of the Faith or you don't.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 01:38:25 AM by bogdan »

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1397 on: October 26, 2010, 01:37:49 AM »


You must be the center of attention at family gatherings, with all those Protestant relatives.


Not too much.  My mother and her parents worked closely with the Mar Thoma Orthodox when they were missionaries to India, so that side of the family is at least somewhat acclimated to Orthodox practice.  My dad gives me a hard time about it, but then my dad has ALWAYS given me a hard time Christian related issues.  He believes it to be important that I be able to give good, reasoned defenses for what I believe.  In reality, he was always a more moderating influence against knee-jerk reaction to "Catholic" practices, and has always enjoyed the occasional Divine Liturgy or Christmas Mass.

My Grandpa on the parental side would probably give me the hardest time (him being Italian and raised Roman Catholic before becoming an Evangelical), but I don't have to worry about him seeing my icons or me crossing myself, as he's been blind since WWII.

Quote
Perhaps you can answer this, if all grace comes through Mary, how does she position herself between Omnipresent God, and the Body of Christ. There doesn't seem to be much space for her to channel grace from Him to us.

Well, Mr Persson, let us make this a personal example.  In all your evangelizing one hopes that you've led at least a few to the Lord.  In these cases, haven't you yourself been a "channel" for the Grace of God?  Certainly God could have appeared to them in a miraculous vision, as He did to St Paul on the road to Damascus or to Moses through the burning bush, but instead it pleases Him to allow us to be vehicles for His grace.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1398 on: October 26, 2010, 01:42:05 AM »
Meanwhile he picks and chooses whatever he likes [read: whatever the Holy Spirit "tells" him to pick] from a host of modern ideologies and pieces them together with the exegesis that best suits his fancy.

There are sizable Churches built on the flawed foundation of Biblical Inerrancy (which I'm convinced that no one really knows about at those Churches); however, just because Alfred happens to attend one doesn't mean that that Church has accepted Alfred; after all, he is in danger of being removed from their membership rolls.

Ah, yes. Well he is under the anathema of the Synodikon, which I'm sure he is proud of, and now this? He has a veritable résumé of heresy from all corners of the Christian world.  :D
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 01:42:39 AM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1399 on: October 26, 2010, 01:44:45 AM »
I cited the scripture that proves my position...here it is again, God's confirming is spoken of in the "past tense" (indicative aorist).

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)

You need verses 1 and 2 for the above passage to make any sense to you.  I could use the same verses you cited, plus Hebrews 2:1-2, to repudiate your flawed philosophy.  Your pastors reject modern psychology; however, your pastors have embraced their own idols authored by those like B.B. Warfield and the signatories to the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy.

The text is very clear, the signs and wonders and various miracles, AND gifts of the Holy Spirit, are spoken about in the past tense.

Contrary to what you may have been taught, these gifts were never held by the majority of  believers...even on the day of Pentecost, presumably the time of their maximum manifestation, only the 120 were "filled" by the Spirit in a unique way, and out of that group, only the apostles themselves worked signs and wonders:

 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. (Act 2:43 NKJ)

The true "outward physical evidence" these new converts had received the Holy Spirit, is the same as it is today, the evidence is in their fruits, their acts of charity, and devotion to God and apostolic doctrine:

 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
 46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
 47 praising God and having favor with all the people.
And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
 (Act 2:38-47 NKJ)

The three thousand didn't do any miracles or speak in tongues at all.

Years ago I complied a "timeline of cessation"...here it is:


Tongues are no longer discussed after A.D.55  the time when 1 Corinthians was written. References to prophecy and knowledge in the church pass away entirely so that by A.D.94 there is nothing of these mentioned in seven Churches of Asia (1:4-3:22) except for a false prophetess called Jezebel (2:20).  
 
A.D.30 Perhaps only about 3.85% percent of believers received the special gifts of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost-Acts 1:15, 2:1ff; 41-47.  
 
A.D.49 Paul lists fruits of the Spirit rather than special gifts-Galatians 5:2-23.  
 
A.D.51 Timothy brings Paul news about faith and love, not charismata-1 Thessalonians 3:6.  
 
A.D.51 Paul says love is evidence of God's choosing, not special gifts-2 Thessalonians 1:3-5.  
 
A.D.51 "May the Lord direct your hearts into God's love and Christ's perseverance."-2 Thessalonians 3:5 NIV  
 
A.D.53 The unusual is recorded: Twelve followers of John the Baptist receive the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues and prophesy-Acts 19:1-7.  
 
A.D.55 Paul appeals to the Corinthians desire to excel in every sign of spirituality to add to their zeal generosity 2 Corinthians 8:7.  
 
A.D.55 New birth confirms one is in Christ, not revelatory gifts-2 Corinthians 5:17.  
 
A.D.55 Paul exhorts unto righteousness and holiness, not revelatory gifts-2 Corinthians 7:1.  
 
A.D.56, Only prophecy is mentioned in a way that implies it is rare and the other gifts surprisingly are not named at all-Romans 12:4-13.  
 
A.D.60 The absence here of revelatory gifts in this context is very conspicuous, it should be here in a number of places. The text lists prophets with apostles, signifying they are few in number-Ephesians 4:2-5:21.  
 
A.D.60 This context would have been perfect to mention the revelatory gifts, instead he refers to false charismata Colossians 2:9-18.  
 
A.D.60 Paul neither hears about revelatory gifts nor does he pray for Philemon to receive them-Philemon 1:4-7.  
 
A.D.62 Renewing of the Holy Ghost connected to holy lifestyle and God's grace, not gifts-Titus 3:1-8.  
 
A.D.62 Revelatory gifts not part of the requirements for the office of overseer or deacon-1 Timothy 3:2-13.  
 
A.D.62 Paul had to exhort Timothy to use his gift (ministry? cp. 2 Tim. 1:6f) and the example he is to set is for holy living, not gift seeking-1 Timothy 4:12-16.  
 
A.D.67 The special gifts are referred to in the past tense-Hebrews 2:3-4.  
 
A.D.67 Spur one another unto love and good deeds, not tongues-Hebrews 10:24-25.  
 
A.D.67 Peter does not mention these gifts amongst those who share the divine nature and this is in contrast to the false prophets in next chapter-2 Peter 1:4-9.  
 
A.D.90 God's love shown not by gifts but by Christ ransom sacrifice-1 John 4:9-10.  
 
A.D.90 Evidence of having the Spirit is love and true doctrine-1 John 4:12-17.  
 
Some argue Revelation may have been written as early as A.D.68 If the earlier date is accepted, it would better fit our survey chronicling the cessation of these gifts for they seem to have ceased about this time.  

A.D.94 The seven churches in the book of Revelation make no mention of these revelatory gifts at all, only to a false prophetess called Jezebel (Rev. 2:20f).  
 
A.D.94 Testimony of Jesus is spirit of prophecy-Revelation 19:10.  
 
A.D.94 If prophecy were still in operation in the church, Revelation 22:18 would not forbid adding to the book.  
 
A.D.94 Ethical imperatives not gift seeking-Revelation 22:11.  
 
(C) Satan has been known to step into a Christian void (John 14:30). With the decline of true Prophets the false increased. (2 Cor. 11:3-12:13) They became numerous enough to upset the Church to the point where believers were despising prophecy altogether. About A.D.51, five years before Paul wrote 1 Corinthians he says: "Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."-1 Thess 5:20-21 NIV This was probably a factor in why th  
e majority in Corinth wanted to forbid speaking in tongues (1 Cor. 14:29; cp. 2 Pet. 1:20-2:1ff)." By A.D.90 the apostle John says: "...many false prophets are gone out into the world (1 John 4:1 NIV)."  
These became so many they left the apostle John's church (no doubt revelatory giftless) to form their own new and exciting church:  
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."-1 John 2:19 NIV  
 
CONCLUSION:  
Tongues were the first to go. Paul doesn't mention tongues again in any of his twelve later epistles: Peter doesn't mention tongues, John doesn't mention tongues, Jude doesn't mention tongues. To them we add the apostolic fathers who never alluded to or hinted at tongues still being around in their day. This is a great crowd of witnesses.  
 
Tongues do not reappear until the heretic Montanus in the second century A.D. As these appearances are yoked with false doctrine and false prophecy  (Deut.18:21f), they are additional proof that these later signs and wonders and are lying, they are not of God.  
 
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron."-1 Timothy 4:1f.-NIV  
 
The false charisma manifest in Montanism was not new, it is seen in the NT. Mixed in with genuine gifts of revelation was a lot of spurious charismania that both Christ (Mt 7:22ff) and the apostle John (1 Jn 4:1ff) warned against:  
 
1 John 2:18  Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.  
1 John 2:19  They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.  
1 John 2:20  But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.  
1 John 2:21  I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.-niv  
 
Anti(instead of)chirst spirits (1 Jn 4:1), disguised as good spirits or even the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 12:2-3; 1 Jn 4:2-3; 2 Cor 11:3; Gal 1:6-9) led many into becoming false prophets (1 Tim 4:1), they refused to "listen to" to the apostles and do what Chirst says (1 Jn 4:6; Mt 7:21,23ff; 1 Jn 2:3; 3:10, 24; ).  
 
When Paul was discussing the genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit, observe how he digresses to warn the Corinthians "don't be fooled again by the antichrist spirit which once carried you away (from your reason),  via supernatural and mystical experiences, into idolatry:"  
 
1 Cor 12:1  Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant.  
1 Cor 12:2  You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.  
1 Cor 12:3  Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.  
1 Cor 12:4  There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.  
 
See how Paul sandwiches in this warning, vvs 1 & 4 are about the real Holy Spirit, vvs 2 & 3 about a counterfeit Holy Spirit. Both have something to say about Christ, only evil spirits cannot say "Jesus is LORD" therefore under the direct influence of evil spirits pretending to be God the Holy Spirit, cannot say this.  
 
When not under the direct control of these spirits they may say "lord lord we knew you!" But their actions, their disobedience to Christ's commands proves they never knew the real Jesus Christ revealed in Scripture.  
 
2 Th 2:9  The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, who uses all power, signs, lying wonders,  
2 Th 2:10  and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.  
2 Th 2:11  For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false,  
2 Th 2:12  so that all who have not believed the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned.  
2 Th 2:13  But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.  
2 Th 2:14  For this purpose he called you through our proclamation of the good news, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.  
2 Th 2:15  So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.-nrsv  
 
Observe the contrast between those led by their satanically manipulated "spiritual experiences" and those who "love the truth" (Jn 17:7), the Bible. The latter remain faithful to apostolic doctrine (vvs 13-15), the former disobey the Bible because their experiences are what guides them into all the "truth."  
 
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.  
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.-kjv  
 
So remember, God loves you very much and you did receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit "when you believed" and those who trouble you about your supposed lack are liars, the truth is not in them:  
 
1 John 2:19  They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.  
1 John 2:20  But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.  
1 John 2:21  I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
-niv  
 
Don't let the fact real Christians sometimes speak in tongues ect, real Christians also sin and that is not right either. Scripture alone is true:  
 
John 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.  
 
Obey it and not the mystical experiences of others, they don't have a clue what being filled with the Holy Spirit is really all about.  
 
2 Tim 3:1  But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.  
2 Tim 3:2  People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,  
2 Tim 3:3  without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,  
2 Tim 3:4  treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God--  
2 Tim 3:5  having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.  
2 Tim 3:6  They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires,  
2 Tim 3:7  always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.  
2 Tim 3:8  Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth--men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.  
2 Tim 3:9  But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.-niv  
 
What is "a form of godliness but denying its power?" Look at vs 8, Jannes and Jambres who opposed Moses were MIRACLE WORKING false prophets who denied the power of God to live righteously, they rebelled against His Spirit:  
 
Rom 8:8  Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.  
Rom 8:9  You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.  
Rom 8:10  But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.  
Rom 8:11  And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.  
Rom 8:12  Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.  
Rom 8:13  For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,  
Rom 8:14  because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.  
Rom 8:15  For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."  
Rom 8:16  The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  
Rom 8:17  Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.  
Rom 8:18  I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.  
Rom 8:19  The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.-kjv  
 
Then we who are really led by the Spirit and obey God by diligently studying His Word to do it, will shine like the stars in heaven.  

Those who insist we must speak in tongues or we don't have the Holy Spirit, are wrong:

  
Ezekiel 13:22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad;  
and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:    
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations:  
for I will deliver my people out of your hand:  
and ye shall know that I am the LORD.  


 3 Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people." And let not any eunuch complain, "I am only a dry tree."
 4 For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant--
 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off.
 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant--
 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar
; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
 (Isa 56:3-7 NIV)


Amen, come Lord Jesus!

 
May God grant peace to your house  


« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 02:10:00 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1400 on: October 26, 2010, 01:44:58 AM »
Well, having gotten Alfred to admit the error of his ways, I feel I can now safely exit the thread for the night.

Good night! :D
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1401 on: October 26, 2010, 01:47:22 AM »
Well, having gotten Alfred to admit the error of his ways, I feel I can now safely exit the thread for the night.

Good night! :D

See, if you lived in New York, you'd have worry about bed bugs...

Good nite.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1402 on: October 26, 2010, 01:51:44 AM »
May God grant peace to your house  

May the Lord grant you a peaceful night.   :)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1403 on: October 26, 2010, 07:47:31 AM »

Cults disagree, and I blame the Orthodox for all the cults. You guys were first, Christian unity was yours to screw up...and that you did.

So every schism can be rightly traced back to you, a kind of "schismatic succession."
That's very true - even the "screw up" part. Many people, if not most, find the truth hard to handle. (But don't blame only the Orthodox, we did have some help  ;) )

I realized somewhat later that when I wished you a happy name day yesterday, sunset may not have yet occurred in your corner of California, so I apologize if I seemed overeager with my greetings.

But in any case, it's almost dawn here - about 4 more minutes according to the almanac - so I know I safe in wishing you a blessed name day, Alfred. Many years!

Names are important, Alfred. I hope you've looked into the lives others with whom you share a name, particularly the Holy and Righteous Alfred, King of Wessex. We could easily have another complete discussion about names.

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1404 on: October 26, 2010, 09:32:38 AM »
You know, Alfred, now that I think about it, I should thank you for this verse:

Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Alfred, according to your own method of interpreting scripture (sola scriptura), if you, Alfred, do not know all things, then you do not have an anointing from the Holy One, which you have interpreted above as having the Holy Spirit.  In other words, Alfred, from your own mouth, if you do not know all things, you do not have the Holy Spirit.  "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom. 8:9)

So I will give you a few options to choose from, in order to prove that you know all things, that you have an anointing from the Holy One, that you have the Holy Spirit, and that, according to your own method of interpreting scripture, you are, in fact, a Christian.

1) You can tell me the date of your most recent church attendance
2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket
3) You can evade both questions (something you have repeatedly accused members, including me, of doing, and something I would not expect from a self-described "seasoned apologist")
4) You can interpret 1 John 2:20 for me

I can't give out personal information to someone who has not the Spirit of Christ making known to him the things of God.

Therefore I refuse your request for personal information.

Okay. I will ignore the insult for the moment, and I'll get back to the matter of your church attendance later. But that still leaves options 2, 3 and 4.

I won't give you any personal information, period.


I don't trust a man who can read this, tell me they don't know the things of God, and won't tell me how that can be:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
 (1Co 2:12 NKJ)


Until you answer that question, I'll be ignoring your requests, its not a one way street with only me doing the answering...until you answer, ignore button is on.


And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you beat a troll.  

You won? You confessed you don't know God, there is no win possible for you.

Alfred, I insist that you quote the post where I allegedly said that I don't know God.  I never said any such thing, and putting those words in my mouth makes you a liar.

Try not to miss the ignore button next time.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 09:35:30 AM by tuesdayschild »

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1405 on: October 26, 2010, 09:56:25 AM »
You know, Alfred, now that I think about it, I should thank you for this verse:

Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Alfred, according to your own method of interpreting scripture (sola scriptura), if you, Alfred, do not know all things, then you do not have an anointing from the Holy One, which you have interpreted above as having the Holy Spirit.  In other words, Alfred, from your own mouth, if you do not know all things, you do not have the Holy Spirit.  "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom. 8:9)

So I will give you a few options to choose from, in order to prove that you know all things, that you have an anointing from the Holy One, that you have the Holy Spirit, and that, according to your own method of interpreting scripture, you are, in fact, a Christian.

1) You can tell me the date of your most recent church attendance
2) You can tell me what I have got in my pocket
3) You can evade both questions (something you have repeatedly accused members, including me, of doing, and something I would not expect from a self-described "seasoned apologist")
4) You can interpret 1 John 2:20 for me

I can't give out personal information to someone who has not the Spirit of Christ making known to him the things of God.

Therefore I refuse your request for personal information.

Okay. I will ignore the insult for the moment, and I'll get back to the matter of your church attendance later. But that still leaves options 2, 3 and 4.

I won't give you any personal information, period.


I don't trust a man who can read this, tell me they don't know the things of God, and won't tell me how that can be:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
 (1Co 2:12 NKJ)


Until you answer that question, I'll be ignoring your requests, its not a one way street with only me doing the answering...until you answer, ignore button is on.


And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you beat a troll.  

You won? You confessed you don't know God, there is no win possible for you.

If I were you, declare Victory and then leave. It's a tried a true tactic.

Or drop the haughty  pretense and have a more reasonable conversation.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1406 on: October 26, 2010, 10:22:21 AM »
Or drop the haughty  pretense and have a more reasonable conversation.

After 32 pages, can we all agree that the only reasonable option available is to ignore this thread altogether and let it die?
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1407 on: October 26, 2010, 10:27:33 AM »
Perhaps the mods could lock it, or someone could start a new thread, with a fresh topic.  :)
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1408 on: October 26, 2010, 11:40:31 AM »

Cults disagree, and I blame the Orthodox for all the cults. You guys were first, Christian unity was yours to screw up...and that you did.

So every schism can be rightly traced back to you, a kind of "schismatic succession."
That's very true - even the "screw up" part. Many people, if not most, find the truth hard to handle. (But don't blame only the Orthodox, we did have some help  ;) )

I realized somewhat later that when I wished you a happy name day yesterday, sunset may not have yet occurred in your corner of California, so I apologize if I seemed overeager with my greetings.

But in any case, it's almost dawn here - about 4 more minutes according to the almanac - so I know I safe in wishing you a blessed name day, Alfred. Many years!

Names are important, Alfred. I hope you've looked into the lives others with whom you share a name, particularly the Holy and Righteous Alfred, King of Wessex. We could easily have another complete discussion about names.

My last reply to was a tad bit cold, I apologize. Schism is the work of fallen human nature and demonic encouragement, and as they are found in every religion (Buddhist, Hindu, Islam etc) one cannot blame the Bible or tradition for them.

The mistake of epic proportions was agreeing to Rome's ascendancy, the  Orthodox should never have allowed it become the center of Christianity. You had most of the Bishops at Nicaea, they should have kept them in in Nicaea or Constantinople....

I confess my knowledge of this history is spotty, so perhaps that's a wrong impression.

As for the Saints named Alfred, nice to know some of us made it. Peace.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 11:42:42 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1409 on: October 26, 2010, 11:53:16 AM »
lol, yes, your knowledge IS a bit spotty there as the Orthodox did NOT let Rome become the dominant power - that's what the schism of 1054 was all about, Charlie Brown! :D
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1410 on: October 26, 2010, 12:22:02 PM »
I cited the scripture that proves my position...here it is again, God's confirming is spoken of in the "past tense" (indicative aorist).

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)

You need verses 1 and 2 for the above passage to make any sense to you.  I could use the same verses you cited, plus Hebrews 2:1-2, to repudiate your flawed philosophy.  Your pastors reject modern psychology; however, your pastors have embraced their own idols authored by those like B.B. Warfield and the signatories to the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy.

The text is very clear, the signs and wonders and various miracles, AND gifts of the Holy Spirit, are spoken about in the past tense.

Contrary to what you may have been taught, these gifts were never held by the majority of  believers...even on the day of Pentecost, presumably the time of their maximum manifestation, only the 120 were "filled" by the Spirit in a unique way, and out of that group, only the apostles themselves worked signs and wonders:

 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. (Act 2:43 NKJ)

The true "outward physical evidence" these new converts had received the Holy Spirit, is the same as it is today, the evidence is in their fruits, their acts of charity, and devotion to God and apostolic doctrine:

 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
 39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.
 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common,
 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
 46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,
 47 praising God and having favor with all the people.
And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
 (Act 2:38-47 NKJ)

The three thousand didn't do any miracles or speak in tongues at all.

Years ago I complied a "timeline of cessation"...here it is:


Tongues are no longer discussed after A.D.55  the time when 1 Corinthians was written. References to prophecy and knowledge in the church pass away entirely so that by A.D.94 there is nothing of these mentioned in seven Churches of Asia (1:4-3:22) except for a false prophetess called Jezebel (2:20).  
 
A.D.30 Perhaps only about 3.85% percent of believers received the special gifts of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost-Acts 1:15, 2:1ff; 41-47.  
 
A.D.49 Paul lists fruits of the Spirit rather than special gifts-Galatians 5:2-23.  
 
A.D.51 Timothy brings Paul news about faith and love, not charismata-1 Thessalonians 3:6.  
 
A.D.51 Paul says love is evidence of God's choosing, not special gifts-2 Thessalonians 1:3-5.  
 
A.D.51 "May the Lord direct your hearts into God's love and Christ's perseverance."-2 Thessalonians 3:5 NIV  
 
A.D.53 The unusual is recorded: Twelve followers of John the Baptist receive the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues and prophesy-Acts 19:1-7.  
 
A.D.55 Paul appeals to the Corinthians desire to excel in every sign of spirituality to add to their zeal generosity 2 Corinthians 8:7.  
 
A.D.55 New birth confirms one is in Christ, not revelatory gifts-2 Corinthians 5:17.  
 
A.D.55 Paul exhorts unto righteousness and holiness, not revelatory gifts-2 Corinthians 7:1.  
 
A.D.56, Only prophecy is mentioned in a way that implies it is rare and the other gifts surprisingly are not named at all-Romans 12:4-13.  
 
A.D.60 The absence here of revelatory gifts in this context is very conspicuous, it should be here in a number of places. The text lists prophets with apostles, signifying they are few in number-Ephesians 4:2-5:21.  
 
A.D.60 This context would have been perfect to mention the revelatory gifts, instead he refers to false charismata Colossians 2:9-18.  
 
A.D.60 Paul neither hears about revelatory gifts nor does he pray for Philemon to receive them-Philemon 1:4-7.  
 
A.D.62 Renewing of the Holy Ghost connected to holy lifestyle and God's grace, not gifts-Titus 3:1-8.  
 
A.D.62 Revelatory gifts not part of the requirements for the office of overseer or deacon-1 Timothy 3:2-13.  
 
A.D.62 Paul had to exhort Timothy to use his gift (ministry? cp. 2 Tim. 1:6f) and the example he is to set is for holy living, not gift seeking-1 Timothy 4:12-16.  
 
A.D.67 The special gifts are referred to in the past tense-Hebrews 2:3-4.  
 
A.D.67 Spur one another unto love and good deeds, not tongues-Hebrews 10:24-25.  
 
A.D.67 Peter does not mention these gifts amongst those who share the divine nature and this is in contrast to the false prophets in next chapter-2 Peter 1:4-9.  
 
A.D.90 God's love shown not by gifts but by Christ ransom sacrifice-1 John 4:9-10.  
 
A.D.90 Evidence of having the Spirit is love and true doctrine-1 John 4:12-17.  
 
Some argue Revelation may have been written as early as A.D.68 If the earlier date is accepted, it would better fit our survey chronicling the cessation of these gifts for they seem to have ceased about this time.  

A.D.94 The seven churches in the book of Revelation make no mention of these revelatory gifts at all, only to a false prophetess called Jezebel (Rev. 2:20f).  
 
A.D.94 Testimony of Jesus is spirit of prophecy-Revelation 19:10.  
 
A.D.94 If prophecy were still in operation in the church, Revelation 22:18 would not forbid adding to the book.  
 
A.D.94 Ethical imperatives not gift seeking-Revelation 22:11.  
 
(C) Satan has been known to step into a Christian void (John 14:30). With the decline of true Prophets the false increased. (2 Cor. 11:3-12:13) They became numerous enough to upset the Church to the point where believers were despising prophecy altogether. About A.D.51, five years before Paul wrote 1 Corinthians he says: "Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."-1 Thess 5:20-21 NIV This was probably a factor in why th  
e majority in Corinth wanted to forbid speaking in tongues (1 Cor. 14:29; cp. 2 Pet. 1:20-2:1ff)." By A.D.90 the apostle John says: "...many false prophets are gone out into the world (1 John 4:1 NIV)."  
These became so many they left the apostle John's church (no doubt revelatory giftless) to form their own new and exciting church:  
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."-1 John 2:19 NIV  
 
CONCLUSION:  
Tongues were the first to go. Paul doesn't mention tongues again in any of his twelve later epistles: Peter doesn't mention tongues, John doesn't mention tongues, Jude doesn't mention tongues. To them we add the apostolic fathers who never alluded to or hinted at tongues still being around in their day. This is a great crowd of witnesses.  
 
Tongues do not reappear until the heretic Montanus in the second century A.D. As these appearances are yoked with false doctrine and false prophecy  (Deut.18:21f), they are additional proof that these later signs and wonders and are lying, they are not of God.  
 
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron."-1 Timothy 4:1f.-NIV  
 
The false charisma manifest in Montanism was not new, it is seen in the NT. Mixed in with genuine gifts of revelation was a lot of spurious charismania that both Christ (Mt 7:22ff) and the apostle John (1 Jn 4:1ff) warned against:  
 
1 John 2:18  Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.  
1 John 2:19  They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.  
1 John 2:20  But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.  
1 John 2:21  I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.-niv  
 
Anti(instead of)chirst spirits (1 Jn 4:1), disguised as good spirits or even the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 12:2-3; 1 Jn 4:2-3; 2 Cor 11:3; Gal 1:6-9) led many into becoming false prophets (1 Tim 4:1), they refused to "listen to" to the apostles and do what Chirst says (1 Jn 4:6; Mt 7:21,23ff; 1 Jn 2:3; 3:10, 24; ).  
 
When Paul was discussing the genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit, observe how he digresses to warn the Corinthians "don't be fooled again by the antichrist spirit which once carried you away (from your reason),  via supernatural and mystical experiences, into idolatry:"  
 
1 Cor 12:1  Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant.  
1 Cor 12:2  You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.  
1 Cor 12:3  Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.  
1 Cor 12:4  There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.  
 
See how Paul sandwiches in this warning, vvs 1 & 4 are about the real Holy Spirit, vvs 2 & 3 about a counterfeit Holy Spirit. Both have something to say about Christ, only evil spirits cannot say "Jesus is LORD" therefore under the direct influence of evil spirits pretending to be God the Holy Spirit, cannot say this.  
 
When not under the direct control of these spirits they may say "lord lord we knew you!" But their actions, their disobedience to Christ's commands proves they never knew the real Jesus Christ revealed in Scripture.  
 
2 Th 2:9  The coming of the lawless one is apparent in the working of Satan, who uses all power, signs, lying wonders,  
2 Th 2:10  and every kind of wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.  
2 Th 2:11  For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false,  
2 Th 2:12  so that all who have not believed the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness will be condemned.  
2 Th 2:13  But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.  
2 Th 2:14  For this purpose he called you through our proclamation of the good news, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.  
2 Th 2:15  So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.-nrsv  
 
Observe the contrast between those led by their satanically manipulated "spiritual experiences" and those who "love the truth" (Jn 17:7), the Bible. The latter remain faithful to apostolic doctrine (vvs 13-15), the former disobey the Bible because their experiences are what guides them into all the "truth."  
 
Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.  
Mat 24:25  Behold, I have told you before.-kjv  
 
So remember, God loves you very much and you did receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit "when you believed" and those who trouble you about your supposed lack are liars, the truth is not in them:  
 
1 John 2:19  They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.  
1 John 2:20  But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.  
1 John 2:21  I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
-niv  
 
Don't let the fact real Christians sometimes speak in tongues ect, real Christians also sin and that is not right either. Scripture alone is true:  
 
John 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.  
 
Obey it and not the mystical experiences of others, they don't have a clue what being filled with the Holy Spirit is really all about.  
 
2 Tim 3:1  But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.  
2 Tim 3:2  People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,  
2 Tim 3:3  without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,  
2 Tim 3:4  treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God--  
2 Tim 3:5  having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.  
2 Tim 3:6  They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires,  
2 Tim 3:7  always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.  
2 Tim 3:8  Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth--men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.  
2 Tim 3:9  But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.-niv  
 
What is "a form of godliness but denying its power?" Look at vs 8, Jannes and Jambres who opposed Moses were MIRACLE WORKING false prophets who denied the power of God to live righteously, they rebelled against His Spirit:  
 
Rom 8:8  Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.  
Rom 8:9  You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.  
Rom 8:10  But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.  
Rom 8:11  And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.  
Rom 8:12  Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it.  
Rom 8:13  For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,  
Rom 8:14  because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.  
Rom 8:15  For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."  
Rom 8:16  The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.  
Rom 8:17  Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.  
Rom 8:18  I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.  
Rom 8:19  The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.-kjv  
 
Then we who are really led by the Spirit and obey God by diligently studying His Word to do it, will shine like the stars in heaven.  

Those who insist we must speak in tongues or we don't have the Holy Spirit, are wrong:

  
Ezekiel 13:22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad;  
and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:    
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations:  
for I will deliver my people out of your hand:  
and ye shall know that I am the LORD.  


 3 Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people." And let not any eunuch complain, "I am only a dry tree."
 4 For this is what the LORD says: "To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant--
 5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will not be cut off.
 6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant--
 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar
; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
 (Isa 56:3-7 NIV)


Amen, come Lord Jesus!

 
May God grant peace to your house  





None of the above requires one be possessed to speak in tongues, although that probably does exist. Its documented the modern version of "tongues" can be induced psychologically, manipulation of emotional states.

A survey of the spiritual phenomena in the occult reveals demonic devices include telepathic ability to communicate not only verbally, but  also images or visions so intense, one can believe they are being abducted by UFO aliens and have sex with them etc. Moreover they can excite the human body's production of the electro-chemicals required for euphoria, feeling of a presence, well being, feeling the entity is "holy," unreasonable fear and anger.

The Bible implies they can manipulate us telepathically without our being aware they are doing so, perhaps imitating our own "inner voice" and then argue against obedience to the word of God:

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (Luk 8:12 KJV)  

Here demonic manipulation caused complete loss of reason, these were "carried away" into idolatry:

 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. (1Co 12:2 KJV)  


Satan and crew can telepathically tempt Christians also. These spirits excite lusts and if followed, that brings forth sin.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:  
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.  
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.  
(Jam 1:13-15 KJV)  


Many Christians today have forgotten these spirits do teach doctrine, subtly:
 

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1Ti 4:1 KJV)  


Their telepathic devices are so subtle and pervasive scripture labels it a "mystery already working within the lawlessness" (μυστήριον ἤδη ἐνεργεῖται τῆς ἀνομίας), the whole world is in its power:

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. (2Th 2:7 NKJ)

Compare:

For the hidden power of lawlessness is already at work. (2Th 2:7 NET)
For the secret of evil is even now at work (2Th 2:7 BBE)
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; (2Th 2:7 NIV)

We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. (1Jo 5:19 NKJ)

in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works (ἐνεργοῦντος) in the sons of disobedience, (Eph 2:2 NKJ)


Its a mystery of lawlessness because its like an evil energy inspiring lawlessness, a secret power of lawlessness, a mystery because its secret, the world is completely unaware of the manipulation:

Every believer should know what scripture teaches about this:

lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2Co 2:11 NKJ)

Scripture alone is 100% correct information, everything apart from it, especially personal experiences, are suspect and likely misdirection from the truth of God's Word.


I think it very likely Satan is behind UFO phenomena, that God will allow demons to enter our sphere of existence physically once again, as they did in Genesis c. 6. They will pretend to be UFO aliens. I deduce this from various scriptures, and the fact Satan wouldn't go through all that trouble (and testing) if it weren't a part of the strong delusion that God will allow come upon the entire earth:

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie (2Th 2:11 NKJ)

For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (Rev 16:14 NKJ)

Perhaps its "alien technology" that has people feeling so helpless against him:

So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" (Rev 13:4 NKJ)

There are other relevant texts, this is not a complete survey:

"For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Mar 13:22 NKJ)

But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. (Dan 11:38 KJV)

who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
 (2Th 2:4 NKJ)

A "UFO" landing would go far towards rendering all religion, including Christianity, "obsolete" in the eyes of many.

But this is speculation...not a prophecy...I am a Bible student, not a prophet.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 12:32:40 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1411 on: October 26, 2010, 12:31:36 PM »
None of the above requires one be possessed to speak in tongues, although that probably does exist. Its documented the modern version of "tongues" can be induced psychologically, manipulation of emotional states.

A survey of the spiritual phenomena in the occult reveals demonic devices include telepathic ability to communicate not only verbally, but  also images or visions so intense, one can believe they are being abducted by UFO aliens and have sex with them etc. Moreover they can excite the human body's production of the electro-chemicals required for euphoria, feeling of a presence, well being, feeling the entity is "holy," unreasonable fear and anger.

The Bible implies they can manipulate us telepathically without our being aware they are doing so, perhaps imitating our own "inner voice" and then argue against obedience to the word of God:

I think this thread should be locked now that the OP is talking about UFO's, aliens, the occult and telepathy

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1412 on: October 26, 2010, 12:34:12 PM »
None of the above requires one be possessed to speak in tongues, although that probably does exist. Its documented the modern version of "tongues" can be induced psychologically, manipulation of emotional states.

A survey of the spiritual phenomena in the occult reveals demonic devices include telepathic ability to communicate not only verbally, but  also images or visions so intense, one can believe they are being abducted by UFO aliens and have sex with them etc. Moreover they can excite the human body's production of the electro-chemicals required for euphoria, feeling of a presence, well being, feeling the entity is "holy," unreasonable fear and anger.

The Bible implies they can manipulate us telepathically without our being aware they are doing so, perhaps imitating our own "inner voice" and then argue against obedience to the word of God:

I think this thread should be locked now that the OP is talking about UFO's, aliens, the occult and telepathy



Its all relevant to making God's path straight.

If you disagree, why not prove it wrong.

Your desire to suppress this information is suspect.

In my experience, only those practicing these things want to suppress any discussion of them.

Is that so with you, or do you have a valid reason not to discuss satanic methods of deception clearly revealed in the scripture?

lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2Co 2:11 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 12:48:48 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1413 on: October 26, 2010, 12:35:50 PM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1414 on: October 26, 2010, 12:42:39 PM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!

Is that a "tongue"...I got Christian friends who speak in tongues...in spite of my warning its all psychological manipulation...that's why they "teach" new converts "how to induce tongues."

« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 12:42:58 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1415 on: October 26, 2010, 12:46:28 PM »
Nanu, nanu!   ;D
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1416 on: October 26, 2010, 01:47:57 PM »
Maybe AP should read: Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future by the late Fr Seraphim Rose as to where this thread is heading.
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1417 on: October 26, 2010, 02:16:04 PM »
Or drop the haughty  pretense and have a more reasonable conversation.

After 32 pages, can we all agree that the only reasonable option available is to ignore this thread altogether and let it die?
I see you're here. ;)
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1418 on: October 26, 2010, 02:18:07 PM »
None of the above requires one be possessed to speak in tongues, although that probably does exist. Its documented the modern version of "tongues" can be induced psychologically, manipulation of emotional states.

A survey of the spiritual phenomena in the occult reveals demonic devices include telepathic ability to communicate not only verbally, but  also images or visions so intense, one can believe they are being abducted by UFO aliens and have sex with them etc. Moreover they can excite the human body's production of the electro-chemicals required for euphoria, feeling of a presence, well being, feeling the entity is "holy," unreasonable fear and anger.

The Bible implies they can manipulate us telepathically without our being aware they are doing so, perhaps imitating our own "inner voice" and then argue against obedience to the word of God:

I think this thread should be locked now that the OP is talking about UFO's, aliens, the occult and telepathy

What? We're not supposed to have discussions about UFO's, aliens, the occult, and telepathy? That's news to me.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1419 on: October 26, 2010, 02:42:13 PM »
Its all relevant to making God's path straight.

UFO's, aliens, the occult and telepathy ... the fascinations of man who uses "intelligent design" to justify the existence of aliens.

If you disagree, why not prove it wrong.

I don't believe in the above stated man-made creations even if Satan happens to be behind each and every one of them; therefore, why waste time and energy proving them wrong

Your desire to suppress this information is suspect.

In 1400+ posts, we have established that your faith system is man-made and not even 100 years old.

In my experience, only those practicing these things want to suppress any discussion of them.

I never liked Halloween.

Is that so with you, or do you have a valid reason not to discuss satanic methods of deception clearly revealed in the scripture?

Tell us why Bible Inerrancy trumps the Orthodox faith and we can talk about Satan.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1420 on: October 26, 2010, 02:48:49 PM »
Its all relevant to making God's path straight.

UFO's, aliens, the occult and telepathy ... the fascinations of man who uses "intelligent design" to justify the existence of aliens.

If you disagree, why not prove it wrong.

I don't believe in the above stated man-made creations even if Satan happens to be behind each and every one of them; therefore, why waste time and energy proving them wrong

Your desire to suppress this information is suspect.

In 1400+ posts, we have established that your faith system is man-made and not even 100 years old.

In my experience, only those practicing these things want to suppress any discussion of them.

I never liked Halloween.

Is that so with you, or do you have a valid reason not to discuss satanic methods of deception clearly revealed in the scripture?

Tell us why Bible Inerrancy trumps the Orthodox faith and we can talk about Satan.


You believe the Orthodox can rewrite scripture? Its below it in authority?

Please explain why Bible Inerrancy doesn't trump everyone's faith...being its the Word of God and He Trumps everyone.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1421 on: October 26, 2010, 02:53:48 PM »


Please explain why Bible Inerrancy doesn't trump everyone's faith...being its the Word of God and He Trumps everyone.
Christ is the Word of God. Although it was just a sentence structure quirk, it appears as though you referred to the Bible as "He"; perhaps a Freudian slip.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 02:54:39 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1422 on: October 26, 2010, 02:54:57 PM »
You believe the Orthodox can rewrite scripture? Its below it in authority?

Please explain why Bible Inerrancy doesn't trump everyone's faith...being its the Word of God and He Trumps everyone.

Kindly explain why a man-made declaration, authored in 1978, currently carries such tremendous weight in the Evangelical Movement?  Last time I checked, God didn't author the Chicago Statement on Bible Inerrancy (and if He did, then the Chicago Statement on Bible Inerrancy becomes a part of your Scriptures). 

If you describe yourself as an Apostle of Bible Inerrancy, so are hundreds of thousands of persons who worship in like minded Megachurches except that I do not see them on this forum to proselytize us ... only you.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1423 on: October 26, 2010, 03:02:25 PM »
You believe the Orthodox can rewrite scripture? Its below it in authority?

Please explain why Bible Inerrancy doesn't trump everyone's faith...being its the Word of God and He Trumps everyone.

Kindly explain why a man-made declaration, authored in 1978, currently carries such tremendous weight in the Evangelical Movement?  Last time I checked, God didn't author the Chicago Statement on Bible Inerrancy (and if He did, then the Chicago Statement on Bible Inerrancy becomes a part of your Scriptures). 

If you describe yourself as an Apostle of Bible Inerrancy, so are hundreds of thousands of persons who worship in like minded Megachurches except that I do not see them on this forum to proselytize us ... only you.


You said Orthodoxy trumps Bible inerrancy, I asked how that is possible as God Trumps everyone.

All that other stuff, don't know anything about it, or care.

Alien abductees often find it hard to focus on direct questions asked.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1424 on: October 26, 2010, 03:37:02 PM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!

Is that a "tongue"...I got Christian friends who speak in tongues...in spite of my warning its all psychological manipulation...that's why they "teach" new converts "how to induce tongues."



Repeat after me, Alfred: Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!!!
Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1425 on: October 26, 2010, 03:39:48 PM »
You said Orthodoxy trumps Bible inerrancy, I asked how that is possible as God Trumps everyone.

If God trumped everyone, He would have destroyed us many times over and we wouldn't be on this forum or anywhere else for that matter.

All that other stuff, don't know anything about it, or care.

You refer to yourself as an Apostle, analogous to Paul, and you don't care to know about what your faith system is really based on?

Alien abductees often find it hard to focus on direct questions asked.

I'm sorry to say that Ad hominems (e.g. referring to Orthodox Christians and others as alien abductees) won't help you.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 03:44:38 PM by SolEX01 »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1426 on: October 26, 2010, 03:40:24 PM »
Alfred, do you think we're alien abductees now?  Seiously?  lol :laugh: :D
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1427 on: October 26, 2010, 03:45:35 PM »
You said Orthodoxy trumps Bible inerrancy, I asked how that is possible as God Trumps everyone.

If God trumped everyone, He would have destroyed us many times over and we wouldn't be on this forum or anywhere else for that matter.

All that other stuff, don't know anything about it, or care.

You refer to yourself as an Apostle, analogous to Paul, and you don't care to know about what your faith system is really based on?

Alien abductees often find it hard to focus on direct questions asked.

I'm sorry to say that Ad hominems (e.g. referring to me as an alien abductee) won't help you.

You are evading your own argument.

You said Orthodoxy trumps Bible inerrancy, I asked how that can be as God Trumps everyone.

I don't claim to be an apostle, nor do any religious statements of men have authority. My faith system is based on scripture.

I didn't call you an abductee, I merely mentioned a factoid.

Another factoid about abductees, they are irritable, easily go ballistic, imagining others are talking about them. Many of them deny any interest in the subject and seek to suppress any discussion of it.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 03:47:39 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1428 on: October 26, 2010, 03:50:46 PM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!

Is that a "tongue"...I got Christian friends who speak in tongues...in spite of my warning its all psychological manipulation...that's why they "teach" new converts "how to induce tongues."



Repeat after me, Alfred: Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!!!

Hey, guys, enough with trying to get the Protestant to summon Elder Gods.  My sanity cannot suffer another incursion, and I haven't stocked up on my boom-stick ammo since S-Mart went out of business.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1429 on: October 26, 2010, 03:52:07 PM »
Alfred, do you think we're alien abductees now?  Seiously?  lol :laugh: :D

Camera's recorded an abductee's sleep, to catch on film what happened. The next morning she had physical evidence of being abducted, wounds ect, but the film showed she never left her bed. She said she was abducted and didn't believe the documentation.

I believe demonic forces gave her a vision that was so real to her, she even experienced it physically, but to anyone watching, she was asleep alone in her bed.

Its revealed in scripture Satan is able to transmute a stick, into a snake:

10 So Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh, and they did so, just as the LORD commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
 11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
 12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
 (Exo 7:10-12 NKJ)

Its interesting to note, whether the reports are true or lies I don't know, that alien autopsy revealed the aliens were plant based androids...



Check this out, a woman seems to be using a cell phone in 1928 in a Chaplin movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6a4T2tJaSU&feature=player_embedded

One explanation is she is using a carbon amplifier:

http://hearing.siemens.com/sg/10-about-us/01-our-history/milestones.jsp?year=1924

BUT she isn't talking to anyone near by, which was what these carbon amplifiers were for.

Beam me up Scotty?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 04:12:33 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline dcommini

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1430 on: October 26, 2010, 03:54:54 PM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!

Is that a "tongue"...I got Christian friends who speak in tongues...in spite of my warning its all psychological manipulation...that's why they "teach" new converts "how to induce tongues."



Repeat after me, Alfred: Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!!!

Hey, guys, enough with trying to get the Protestant to summon Elder Gods.  My sanity cannot suffer another incursion, and I haven't stocked up on my boom-stick ammo since S-Mart went out of business.

Groovy!
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1431 on: October 26, 2010, 04:16:29 PM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!

Is that a "tongue"...I got Christian friends who speak in tongues...in spite of my warning its all psychological manipulation...that's why they "teach" new converts "how to induce tongues."



I didnt read your entire post, but from what I saw you are in complete agreement with the Orhtodox viewpoint on those matters. You would enjoy the writings of Fr. Serephim Rose ( God Willing, eventually to be made a Saint) His book
"Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" say the same thing as you by in large.

He was a deadly serious sort of guy. Here is a link to the Monestary Publishing House that we was associated with:

 http://www.stherman.com/Catalog/Writings_of_Father_Seraphim/living_the_orthodox_worldview_cd.htm

St. Herman of Alaska Press
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1432 on: October 26, 2010, 04:25:36 PM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!

Is that a "tongue"...I got Christian friends who speak in tongues...in spite of my warning its all psychological manipulation...that's why they "teach" new converts "how to induce tongues."



I didnt read your entire post, but from what I saw you are in complete agreement with the Orhtodox viewpoint on those matters. You would enjoy the writings of Fr. Serephim Rose ( God Willing, eventually to be made a Saint) His book
"Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" say the same thing as you by in large.

He was a deadly serious sort of guy. Here is a link to the Monestary Publishing House that we was associated with:

 http://www.stherman.com/Catalog/Writings_of_Father_Seraphim/living_the_orthodox_worldview_cd.htm

St. Herman of Alaska Press

I ordered the cd, I'll check it out, thanks.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1433 on: October 26, 2010, 05:11:51 PM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!

Is that a "tongue"...I got Christian friends who speak in tongues...in spite of my warning its all psychological manipulation...that's why they "teach" new converts "how to induce tongues."




I didnt read your entire post, but from what I saw you are in complete agreement with the Orthodox viewpoint on those matters. You would enjoy the writings of Fr. Serephim Rose ( God Willing, eventually to be made a Saint) His book
"Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" says the same thing as you by in large.

He was a deadly serious sort of guy. Here is a link to the Monastery Publishing House that we was associated with:

 http://www.stherman.com/Catalog/Writings_of_Father_Seraphim/living_the_orthodox_worldview_cd.htm

St. Herman of Alaska Press

I ordered the cd, I'll check it out, thanks.

Perhaps you are just being nice so the Mods wont shut the thread.  ;)  Never the less, you may like Fr. Seraphim very much. I would also like to recommend the series about the Elders of Optina, especially the life of Fr. Ambrose from the same web page ( St. Herman Press). 
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1434 on: October 26, 2010, 06:12:49 PM »
You are evading your own argument.

No.

You said Orthodoxy trumps Bible inerrancy, I asked how that can be as God Trumps everyone.

God had the choice to "trump everyone" by destroying all of mankind after Christ was Crucified.  Did He exercise that choice or Did He literally disinherit the children of Israel when Christ rose from the dead and on Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended upon the 12 Apostles?

I don't claim to be an apostle, nor do any religious statements of men have authority. My faith system is based on scripture.

Stop backtracking!  You're the one who used the term cessationism.  

I didn't call you an abductee, I merely mentioned a factoid.

Another factoid about abductees, they are irritable, easily go ballistic, imagining others are talking about them. Many of them deny any interest in the subject and seek to suppress any discussion of it.

The above bolded and underlined words also describe symptoms of recent celebrity behavior and/or mental illness.  Mental illnesses are biologically based brain disorders (more info can be found at the website for the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) at http://www.nami.org)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 06:27:37 PM by SolEX01 »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1435 on: October 26, 2010, 06:22:26 PM »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1436 on: October 26, 2010, 06:46:37 PM »
Klaatu barrata nikto, Alfred!

Is that a "tongue"...I got Christian friends who speak in tongues...in spite of my warning its all psychological manipulation...that's why they "teach" new converts "how to induce tongues."






I didnt read your entire post, but from what I saw you are in complete agreement with the Orthodox viewpoint on those matters. You would enjoy the writings of Fr. Serephim Rose ( God Willing, eventually to be made a Saint) His book
"Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" says the same thing as you by in large.

He was a deadly serious sort of guy. Here is a link to the Monastery Publishing House that we was associated with:

 http://www.stherman.com/Catalog/Writings_of_Father_Seraphim/living_the_orthodox_worldview_cd.htm

St. Herman of Alaska Press

I ordered the cd, I'll check it out, thanks.

Perhaps you are just being nice so the Mods wont shut the thread.  ;)  Never the less, you may like Fr. Seraphim very much. I would also like to recommend the series about the Elders of Optina, especially the life of Fr. Ambrose from the same web page ( St. Herman Press). 

I wasn't trying to be nice, I'm not a nice guy...you gotta be nice to try to be, and that ain't me.

His promo interested me...nothing in it about tongues...but he spoke of a spiritual life...and I think he might have an insight or two that I can benefit from.

I am anti icon, not anti Orthodox although I'm sure many of you say that is impossible. I like the early fathers, I don't see any icons in their apologetic writings at all.



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1437 on: October 26, 2010, 06:56:27 PM »
Alfred, my apologies.  "Klaatu barada nikto" is a phrase from an old science fiction movie called "The Day The Earth Stood Still."  No tongues involved.  (You might enjoy the movie - an oldie but a goodie! :) )
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1438 on: October 26, 2010, 08:09:25 PM »
Quote
I like the early fathers, I don't see any icons in their apologetic writings at all.

All right. He has to be pulling our (collective) leg. Everyone knows this to be patently false. Either he doesn't know what he's talking about, or he didn't even read any of the responses in his own thread on icons, months ago. Since we know the latter can't be true in its own right, because it wouldn't make sense, and the former was itself answered in that very thread on icons, his whole answer becomes a joke.

I think he's here strictly for the joy of pulling chains, and I'm not talking about bicycles. He knows he's not going to win over anyone. Maybe he's only been pretending not to know the most basic definitions about icons, what the saints stood for, the differences between the Orthodox and the Catholics, and so forth. No one could be that ill-informed. No one. That's what trolling is for: to create a stir, and get a kick out of the results.

How many times did we all post explanations about St. John of Damascus, and St. Luke, and so on? For him to say the church fathers did not support icons is ridiculous. It is more than just a difference of opinion. It has been refuted to death in *this* thread alone, not to mention the other threads Alfred himself posted (and failed in). You can't redefine the term 'church father.' To do so just makes the whole discussion incoherent.

Habakkuk 1:2

O LORD, how long shall I cry, And You will not hear? Even cry out to You, “Violence!” And You will not save.


http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_us1277236#m_en_us1277236

pester (pes·ter)

Pronunciation:/ˈpestər/
verb
[with object]

    *
      trouble or annoy (someone) with frequent or persistent requests or interruptions:she constantly pestered him with telephone calls

Derivatives

pesterer
noun

Origin:

mid 16th century (in the senses 'overcrowd (a place)' and 'impede (a person)'): from French empestrer 'encumber', influenced by  pest. The current sense is an extension of an earlier use, 'infest', referring to vermin.


How long is it going to take?   ???
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010, 08:10:27 PM by biro »
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Warning: stories have mature content.

Offline Melodist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1439 on: October 26, 2010, 08:39:38 PM »
Alfred, my apologies.  "Klaatu barada nikto" is a phrase from an old science fiction movie called "The Day The Earth Stood Still."  No tongues involved.  (You might enjoy the movie - an oldie but a goodie! :) )

I like how they copied it in "Army of Darkness".
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God