Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 188436 times)

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #135 on: August 29, 2010, 02:18:38 PM »
You evaded my question...here it is again
For someone who has recognized full well the fallacy of arguments from silence, you seem to rely upon these arguments from silence quite a bit in your posts. ::)  If arguments from silence don't work for others, what makes you so special that you think they'll work for you?
is absence of evidence, evidence of absence?
No, an argument from silence is unsound, proves nothing...

Mr. Persson,

Do you happen to agree with the substance of the Nicene Creed? Yes, I think you said you do.

Was it not the "men" of the church who wrote it with consensus inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Was not the Bible written by the "men" of the church inspired by the Holy Spirit?

And were not the number of those books chosen by the men of the church with consensus inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Regards


What do you think?

Perhaps while some traditions, like some ancient "men" of the early church may not be INFALLIBLE, they may still be an important AUTHORITY on the true Christian faith.

I agree with Nicean Trinitarianism because it is taught in scripture, not because of Nicean Council.

"but about the faith they wrote not, `It seemed good,' but, `Thus believes the Catholic Church;' and thereupon they confessed how they believed, in order to shew that their own sentiments were not novel, but Apostolical; and what they wrote down was no discovery of theirs, but is the same as was taught by the Apostles.-Councils of Ariminum and Seleucia, Part I. History of the Councils, Athanasius.  

 
I don't accept what men teach, if it contradicts scripture, even if it seems to be inspired by God.

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 (1Co 14:36-38 NKJ)

Consider carefully what Paul was saying, the Corinthian church was experiencing mighty works of God, revelations via tongues, prophecy and supernatural knowledge (1 Cor 13:8ff; c. 14)

That inspired tradition would be considered infallible by both the Orthodox and Catholics.

Paul rejected it as being equal to the Word of God he preached.

Careful readers of scripture notice it was possible a "prophet" be wrong about an inspired teaching, yet not be cast out as a false prophet:

 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 (1Co 14:29-33 NKJ)

A person might be prophesying, and be wrong...those established in the faith, two or three themselves prophets, were to judge the "inspired utterance" to verify its orthodoxy.

No hint of condemnation if these judge the utterance to be wrong, which proves to me this wasn't what we today consider "prophecy." Rather it was equal to today's expository preaching, where someone believes they have a doctrine right, and they teach it to the church. If a spirit were prophesying incorrect, I have no doubt he would have been cast out of the church.


How could a "Holy Spirit filled man" get his inspired prophecy wrong? Human nature.

The Holy Spirit's guidance is not "dictation," He grants "perception" into the truth, but it still requires an act of will to accept it, and being "inspired to choose what is right" is not revelation of God's Word. If you don't grasp a doctrine, because you refuse to consider facts, or weren't diligent to uncover all the facts, the Holy Spirit isn't going to reveal them to you. You are required to do due diligence...and then He guides you, using the facts, to the truth.

God is not going to override YOU, your personality and will, He loves us too much for that. He "respects our person," and loves us...He does not indwell, to make robots.

So an inspired teacher might think he has it right, but does not. Although there may be a "nagging doubt" that the Holy Spirit is using to warn him he doesn't, that can be ignored, to our own detriment of course. (Never ignore or trample upon a doubt about a teaching, always verify the teaching by God's Word the Bible).


So Paul is very clear, regardless what a "church's living tradition" is, he brought the inerrant, infallible "word of God" to the church. The Word of God does not come from the church.

THAT is why I don't believe church tradition above scripture, no church, even one shepherded by an apostle, has the "word of God"...that came through Christ and His apostles only...therefore sola scriptura is necessary.

Don't misinterpret sola scriptura, I don't reject everything outside of scripture, some of it is helpful, fills in gaps, language cannot be understood without considering extra-biblical usage...but NONE of that material is "the word of God" therefore ONLY SCRIPTURA, or SCRIPTURE ALONE is the "word of God." Everything else is below it in authority.

ANOTHER aspect of this, the apostles themselves were not infallible:

NKJ  James 3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
 2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.
 (Jam 3:1-2 NKJ)

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
 (Gal 1:8-9 NKJ)

 11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; (Gal 2:11 NKJ)


Once their preaching became scripture, then it has God's seal on it as infallible.

NKJ  2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (2Ti 3:16 NKJ)



Therefore, even if one of the apostles were alive today, preaching, I would still judge what he said, by researching scripture.

That is precisely what the Bereans did, and they were commended for it:

NKJ  Acts 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
 (Act 17:11 NKJ)


Therefore Catholic and Orthodox ideas about ECF tradition, magisterium, living tradition of the church, are all wrong. Scripture alone is verified as the Word of God, everything else is below it in  authority.




« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 02:53:24 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #136 on: August 29, 2010, 06:45:06 PM »
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.

(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 06:54:13 PM by bogdan »

Offline Melodist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #137 on: August 29, 2010, 07:11:13 PM »
I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

You forgot vs 10-14:

But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

Timothy's knowledge of the Scripture was not enough by itself. He needed to keep his understanding of the Scripture in line with what Paul had taught him through discipleship.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #138 on: August 30, 2010, 08:50:23 AM »
Again the preaching in the tradition of man is given to us divorced from holy tradition by inflating an aspect of heavenly worship within holy tradition counter to its meaning reduced to legalistic, justification of human reasoning. Case in point, "the cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 are reduced by individualist rationalization to an obituary listing by opinion that replaces their role within the scripture since it is their witness that assists us to "lay aside every weight and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2 in part).

The tradition of man being preached to us keeps boasting in the scripture that we do not follow scripture which is false and refernces to Calvin for wisdom are poison to us. To expand on the cloud of witness idea, if I was an Ethiopian Orthodox, this concept would be easily Biblically illustrated to me on the basis that the book of Enoch which is in the canon of their church states, "...I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, & praying for the sons of men.." (enoch 39:4). This is the understanding we see within the letter of Hebrews and the roll call given by St. Paul (which includes Enoch) in Hebrews 11 of the faithful witnesses in which the point culminates in Hebrews 12:1. The concept of the many habitations seems most similar to what the Lord says, "In My Father's house are many mansions..."in John 14:2.

Why Enoch is not universal canon, I do not know (it was lost for over 1000 years in many areas) but it was written before & attests to the revelation of the Son of God in many areas & clearly evident within holy tradtion & such attestation expressed in liturgical worship centuries prior to the codification of canon beats guess work of the apostolic faith expressed by a tradtion of man.

A self contradiction, decrying the "tradition of man" you bind yourself to Orthodox tradition, which realized its defects and sought to stabilize itself in the "consensus of the fathers."

Sola scriptura is the antidote for relying upon "the tradition of man," for the Bible is written by God.


.



So the same book that St. Jude quotes from in his epistle as scripture is a tradition of man. Why refer anywhere else to scripture & source other than your postings?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 09:02:11 AM by recent convert »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #139 on: September 01, 2010, 03:56:18 AM »
Again the preaching in the tradition of man is given to us divorced from holy tradition by inflating an aspect of heavenly worship within holy tradition counter to its meaning reduced to legalistic, justification of human reasoning. Case in point, "the cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 are reduced by individualist rationalization to an obituary listing by opinion that replaces their role within the scripture since it is their witness that assists us to "lay aside every weight and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2 in part).

The tradition of man being preached to us keeps boasting in the scripture that we do not follow scripture which is false and refernces to Calvin for wisdom are poison to us. To expand on the cloud of witness idea, if I was an Ethiopian Orthodox, this concept would be easily Biblically illustrated to me on the basis that the book of Enoch which is in the canon of their church states, "...I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, & praying for the sons of men.." (enoch 39:4). This is the understanding we see within the letter of Hebrews and the roll call given by St. Paul (which includes Enoch) in Hebrews 11 of the faithful witnesses in which the point culminates in Hebrews 12:1. The concept of the many habitations seems most similar to what the Lord says, "In My Father's house are many mansions..."in John 14:2.

Why Enoch is not universal canon, I do not know (it was lost for over 1000 years in many areas) but it was written before & attests to the revelation of the Son of God in many areas & clearly evident within holy tradtion & such attestation expressed in liturgical worship centuries prior to the codification of canon beats guess work of the apostolic faith expressed by a tradtion of man.

A self contradiction, decrying the "tradition of man" you bind yourself to Orthodox tradition, which realized its defects and sought to stabilize itself in the "consensus of the fathers."

Sola scriptura is the antidote for relying upon "the tradition of man," for the Bible is written by God.


.



So the same book that St. Jude quotes from in his epistle as scripture is a tradition of man. Why refer anywhere else to scripture & source other than your postings?

You assume he quotes Enoch, both could just as likely be citing the same tradition that is unknown today.

BUT lets assume you are correct, does it follow the book should be canon?

Paul quotes two "poets", Epimenides the Cretan (c. 600 B.C.) "For in thee we live and move and have our being” and Phainomena  a Cilician Aratus (born 310 B.C.) about Zeus: "for we are truly his offspring.”  

KJV  Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. (Act 17:28 KJV)  

Are these are to be made canon? Of course not, therefore neither should Enoch. The content of the book clearly conflicts with NT teaching.


 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 03:57:39 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #140 on: September 01, 2010, 04:00:03 AM »
I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

You forgot vs 10-14:

But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

Timothy's knowledge of the Scripture was not enough by itself. He needed to keep his understanding of the Scripture in line with what Paul had taught him through discipleship.


That's not what the statement implies...you want Paul contradict himself, but that don't mean he did.

To say Timothy knew Paul's trials and doctrine is not to say he believed what contradicted Paul's teaching in scripture.

Wow!

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #141 on: September 01, 2010, 04:01:57 AM »
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.

(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.

Incorrect, the text says God wrote scripture IN ORDER THAT (hina) the man of God be complete.

You allege God failed in His mission.

I think that an odd place for a Christian to be.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #142 on: September 01, 2010, 06:59:34 AM »
Alfred, precisely what were the Holy Scriptures that Timothy would have known from his childhood?

Offline Melodist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #143 on: September 01, 2010, 10:07:26 AM »
I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

You forgot vs 10-14:

But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

Timothy's knowledge of the Scripture was not enough by itself. He needed to keep his understanding of the Scripture in line with what Paul had taught him through discipleship.


That's not what the statement implies...you want Paul contradict himself, but that don't mean he did.

To say Timothy knew Paul's trials and doctrine is not to say he believed what contradicted Paul's teaching in scripture.

Wow!

I think you missed the point. The phrase "what contradicted Paul's teaching in scripture" is an anachronism because Paul is talking about the OT here and I also don't believe Paul's doctrine that he taught through discipleship would not be in contradiction to what he wrote. I;m not saying Paul contradicted himself. You are. You are the one saying that Paul said that scripture is the only thing you need and Paul said "continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them" meaning Timothy was to continue in what Paul had taught him. The scribes and pharisees had Scripture. They knew it inside and out. That did not make most of them wise to salvation with the exception of a few. They still missed the point. Obviously Scripture was not enough for them. For Paul, the faith wasn't passed down in the form of a book, it was passed down through discipleship.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #144 on: September 01, 2010, 10:24:46 AM »
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.

(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.

Incorrect, the text says God wrote scripture IN ORDER THAT (hina) the man of God be complete.

You allege God failed in His mission.

I think that an odd place for a Christian to be.

No, it does not say that, Alfred. It says:

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It is utterly nonsensical to interpret it the way you do. A man of God is not complete simply because he reads the Bible. A man of God is complete because his life is conformed to God's will. He conforms to God's will because he has learned doctrine, been reproofed, been corrected, and been instructed in righteousness. And Scripture is a profitable means to those ends, though it nowhere says it is the sole means.

As for God's failing his mission, I stand firmly on the truth that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. :)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #145 on: September 01, 2010, 03:14:21 PM »
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.

(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.

Incorrect, the text says God wrote scripture IN ORDER THAT (hina) the man of God be complete.

You allege God failed in His mission.

I think that an odd place for a Christian to be.

No, it does not say that, Alfred. It says:

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It is utterly nonsensical to interpret it the way you do. A man of God is not complete simply because he reads the Bible. A man of God is complete because his life is conformed to God's will. He conforms to God's will because he has learned doctrine, been reproofed, been corrected, and been instructed in righteousness. And Scripture is a profitable means to those ends, though it nowhere says it is the sole means.

As for God's failing his mission, I stand firmly on the truth that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. :)

Its nonsense to believe what it says?


 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
     ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.


« Last Edit: September 01, 2010, 03:16:55 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #146 on: September 01, 2010, 04:28:28 PM »
Its nonsense to believe what it says?


 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
     ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.
And yet, even when we hold ourselves strictly to the literal sense of the text, there's still more than one way to interpret the literal meaning of the text.  This isn't true of just the Bible.  This is true of virtually all written texts.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #147 on: September 02, 2010, 01:54:43 AM »
Its nonsense to believe what it says?


 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
     ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.
And yet, even when we hold ourselves strictly to the literal sense of the text, there's still more than one way to interpret the literal meaning of the text.  This isn't true of just the Bible.  This is true of virtually all written texts.

It is not written:

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, but not literally profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, as its sense cannot be determined by reading it...its not literal.

God is the author of confusion, if you believe what God literally says, you will be deceived.

God wrote the Bible, so that the man of God not literally know what He is saying, and that is virtually true of all the texts He wrote.


Your proposition therefore is impossible. Intelligent beings write to be understood, God is intelligent, therefore He writes to be understood. That requires He wrote what He meant...that His words are to be naturally understood, which means as literal as the context requires.

Even where God employs figurative language, or allegory, He makes literally clear the reference:

KJV  Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
 (Gal 4:24 KJV)

NKJ  1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
 (1Co 10:4 NKJ)








« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 01:59:02 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #148 on: September 02, 2010, 06:49:04 AM »
Its nonsense to believe what it says?


 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
     ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.
And yet, even when we hold ourselves strictly to the literal sense of the text, there's still more than one way to interpret the literal meaning of the text.  This isn't true of just the Bible.  This is true of virtually all written texts.

It is not written:

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, but not literally profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, as its sense cannot be determined by reading it...its not literal.

God is the author of confusion, if you believe what God literally says, you will be deceived.

God wrote the Bible, so that the man of God not literally know what He is saying, and that is virtually true of all the texts He wrote.


Your proposition therefore is impossible. Intelligent beings write to be understood, God is intelligent, therefore He writes to be understood. That requires He wrote what He meant...that His words are to be naturally understood, which means as literal as the context requires.

Even where God employs figurative language, or allegory, He makes literally clear the reference:

KJV  Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
 (Gal 4:24 KJV)

NKJ  1 Corinthians 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
 (1Co 10:4 NKJ)
You totally miss my point, then, for I'm talking about the reader, not the writer.  How do you know you're reading the text correctly?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 06:50:20 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #149 on: September 02, 2010, 09:15:22 AM »
Alfred, you keep quoting 2 Tim 3:16-17. Those verses make no sense unless one understands that "all Scripture" must refer to the Holy Scriptures that Timothy had known from childhood (v. 15). Again I ask, please tell us what Timothy (and Paul) would have understood as the Holy Scriptures referred to in verse 15.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #150 on: September 02, 2010, 02:02:19 PM »
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.

(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.

Incorrect, the text says God wrote scripture IN ORDER THAT (hina) the man of God be complete.

You allege God failed in His mission.

I think that an odd place for a Christian to be.

No, it does not say that, Alfred. It says:

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It is utterly nonsensical to interpret it the way you do. A man of God is not complete simply because he reads the Bible. A man of God is complete because his life is conformed to God's will. He conforms to God's will because he has learned doctrine, been reproofed, been corrected, and been instructed in righteousness. And Scripture is a profitable means to those ends, though it nowhere says it is the sole means.

As for God's failing his mission, I stand firmly on the truth that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. :)

Its nonsense to believe what it says?


 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
     ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.




It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #151 on: September 02, 2010, 03:58:35 PM »
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #152 on: September 02, 2010, 05:39:51 PM »
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.
Can we ever be fully satisfied in our quest to know God better and know better what He demands of us?

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)
Personal judgment of the Church, together with proof texts that do not mean at all what you present them to mean.  Do you ignore 1 Timothy 3:15, where St. Paul calls the Church the pillar and ground of the Truth?  And why do you set up an artificial dichotomy between the Apostles and the Church, so as to set them in opposition to each other?  Were not the Apostles members of the Church they founded?  In speaking through the Apostles, did not God speak through the Church, of whom the Apostles were themselves members?

Did the Holy Spirit descend solely upon the Apostles or upon all of the 120 people who awaited His coming in the Upper Room?

If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...
You aren't aware of the many miracles that have been performed by members of the Church in all the centuries since the last of the Apostles died?  I think that's about the only way you could make such a nonsensical claim as that.

no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)
Once for all delivered, however, does not mean that the saints were also delivered a full and perfect comprehension of the faith delivered to them.

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.
Such as the "truth" of sola scriptura, which, in the form in which you present it here, is not found in the Scriptures nor in the writings of the Early Fathers...
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 05:58:27 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #153 on: September 02, 2010, 05:56:17 PM »
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.

The entire church labors under a misconception...that we must be very correct in doctrine to be saved...

When in fact all we need, is given to us by God. God puts the content of Peter's confession in our hearts and in our mouths:

 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 (Rom 10:5-10 KJV)

Then we are rewarded for how well we followed Christ, built upon the one foundation, with apostolic materials:

 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 (1Co 3:10-15 NKJ)

If they build upon the foundation of Christ (that flesh and blood did not reveal to them), buildings of straw, these shall be burned up in fire of God's testing, but they themselves will be saved, but as those who flee a burning house, with no possessions = no rewards.

Save salvation, for that is a gift from God and not of ourselves:

 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


So Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, and everyone who believes the others are going to hell, because they don't agree 100% with XYZ...are wrong...

God never trusted you folks would get it right.

The All knowing God who is Love knew you would all blow it.

Therefore you don't have to ask, who will ascend to heaven, to bring Christ down, or who will uncover Him from where He is hidden, simply throw yourself upon the mercy of Him in whom you live and move and have your being, and He will put the revelation of Christ, the PETRA upon which the church is built, in your heart and in your mouth.

Hence I don't see the need for your councils etc...especially as they bollixed everything up, except Athanasius that faithful servant.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 06:00:14 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #154 on: September 02, 2010, 06:00:33 PM »
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.





Look at it this way, Let's say I know very little of Carpentry,and I get a phone call from a major Hardware store,and they told me that I have won $20,000 worth of tools for Carpentry, you could say I was THOROUGHLY FURNISHED for any carpentry job I could ever do,but my with my in-experience of carpentry and woodworking would prevent me from doing a professional job,it is the same thing with your 2 Timothy analogy!!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #155 on: September 02, 2010, 06:10:41 PM »
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.

The entire church labors under a misconception...that we must be very correct in doctrine to be saved...
Seems like you're the one laboring under a misconception here.  For one, it's submission to Jesus Christ, not adherence to correct doctrine, that saves.  Additionally, the misconception under which you're laboring is the very same misconception of which you accuse us.  Otherwise, why in the world are you wasting so much of your time trying to teach us "correct" doctrine?

So the Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, and everyone believe the other is going to hell, because they don't agree 100% with XYZ...
What about you?  Aren't you here trying to save us from hellfire?  Why else are you so hellbent on converting us to your brand of Christianity?

BUT our Omniscient and Loving God never trusted you, or them, to get it right.
So He sent us you.  How spiffing! ::)

Therefore you don't have to ask, who will ascend to heaven, to bring Christ down, or who will uncover Him from where He is hidden, simply throw yourself upon the mercy of Him in whom you live and move and have your being, and He will put the revelation of Christ, the PETRA upon which the church is build, in your heart and in your mouth.
I got news for you, Alfred.  We already have thrown ourselves upon His mercy.

Hence I don't see the need for your councils etc...especially as they bollixed everything up, except Athanasius that faithful servant.
Got any more half-baked opinions you'd like to sell us?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #156 on: September 02, 2010, 06:23:40 PM »
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.





Look at it this way, Let's say I know very little of Carpentry,and I get a phone call from a major Hardware store,and they told me that I have won $20,000 worth of tools for Carpentry, you could say I was THOROUGHLY FURNISHED for any carpentry job I could ever do,but my with my in-experience of carpentry and woodworking would prevent me from doing a professional job,it is the same thing with your 2 Timothy analogy!!

Good argument, but it overlooks scripture making one "complete":

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete,
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

"may be complete" by scripture alone, without need for councils.

Recall what is written in verse 15:

15 ...the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

The Holy Scriptures are ABLE to make wise unto salvation...provided its testimony about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, is believed.

There again the sufficiency of scripture is taught, in Christ.



« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 06:25:12 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #157 on: September 02, 2010, 06:26:26 PM »
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.

The entire church labors under a misconception...that we must be very correct in doctrine to be saved...
Seems like you're the one laboring under a misconception here.  For one, it's submission to Jesus Christ, not adherence to correct doctrine, that saves.  Additionally, the misconception under which you're laboring is the very same misconception of which you accuse us.  Otherwise, why in the world are you wasting so much of your time trying to teach us "correct" doctrine?

So the Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, and everyone believe the other is going to hell, because they don't agree 100% with XYZ...
What about you?  Aren't you here trying to save us from hellfire?  Why else are you so hellbent on converting us to your brand of Christianity?

BUT our Omniscient and Loving God never trusted you, or them, to get it right.
So He sent us you.  How spiffing! ::)

Therefore you don't have to ask, who will ascend to heaven, to bring Christ down, or who will uncover Him from where He is hidden, simply throw yourself upon the mercy of Him in whom you live and move and have your being, and He will put the revelation of Christ, the PETRA upon which the church is build, in your heart and in your mouth.
I got news for you, Alfred.  We already have thrown ourselves upon His mercy.

Hence I don't see the need for your councils etc...especially as they bollixed everything up, except Athanasius that faithful servant.
Got any more half-baked opinions you'd like to sell us?

Nothing I do is half baked...

It is written:

 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
 (Rom 8:29-34 NKJ)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 06:29:06 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #158 on: September 02, 2010, 07:29:14 PM »
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?
We each have different learning styles.  That's why we Orthodox chant from the Scriptures, why we read the Scriptures in church, why we depend on patristic and conciliar interpretation of the Scriptures, why we have scenes from the Scriptures presented in icons, etc.

The entire church labors under a misconception...that we must be very correct in doctrine to be saved...
Seems like you're the one laboring under a misconception here.  For one, it's submission to Jesus Christ, not adherence to correct doctrine, that saves.  Additionally, the misconception under which you're laboring is the very same misconception of which you accuse us.  Otherwise, why in the world are you wasting so much of your time trying to teach us "correct" doctrine?

So the Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, and everyone believe the other is going to hell, because they don't agree 100% with XYZ...
What about you?  Aren't you here trying to save us from hellfire?  Why else are you so hellbent on converting us to your brand of Christianity?

BUT our Omniscient and Loving God never trusted you, or them, to get it right.
So He sent us you.  How spiffing! ::)

Therefore you don't have to ask, who will ascend to heaven, to bring Christ down, or who will uncover Him from where He is hidden, simply throw yourself upon the mercy of Him in whom you live and move and have your being, and He will put the revelation of Christ, the PETRA upon which the church is build, in your heart and in your mouth.
I got news for you, Alfred.  We already have thrown ourselves upon His mercy.

Hence I don't see the need for your councils etc...especially as they bollixed everything up, except Athanasius that faithful servant.
Got any more half-baked opinions you'd like to sell us?

Nothing I do is half baked...
And yet you failed to address the other issues I addressed earlier in my post, such as your slavery to the same misconception you accuse us of holding.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline DennyB

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #159 on: September 02, 2010, 09:21:03 PM »
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.





Look at it this way, Let's say I know very little of Carpentry,and I get a phone call from a major Hardware store,and they told me that I have won $20,000 worth of tools for Carpentry, you could say I was THOROUGHLY FURNISHED for any carpentry job I could ever do,but my with my in-experience of carpentry and woodworking would prevent me from doing a professional job,it is the same thing with your 2 Timothy analogy!!

Good argument, but it overlooks scripture making one "complete":

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete,
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

"may be complete" by scripture alone, without need for councils.

Recall what is written in verse 15:

15 ...the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

The Holy Scriptures are ABLE to make wise unto salvation...provided its testimony about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, is believed.

There again the sufficiency of scripture is taught, in Christ.





Of course scripture can make one wise unto salvation,and furnish one with ALL the nessessary tools for good works,but there are many who also mis-use these tools and twist scripture to their own destruction!!!

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #160 on: September 02, 2010, 09:39:30 PM »
I think the "complete" argument is weak because the verse need not be understood in the way that Alfred understands it.
Look, lets say that I have a "complete" set of tools. If you take my hammer away it is not longer complete. But giving the hammer back would make it "complete"; yet, it is not the only tool that makes the set complete. If any tool is missing, it is not complete.
The scriptures are similar. They are necessary for our faith to be complete. Yet they are not the only thing necessary for our faith to be complete. Holy Tradition and the experience of the Saints is necessary as well.
Keep this is mind,
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - 2 Thess 2:15   
Sounds like the bible explicitly rejects the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #161 on: September 02, 2010, 09:41:35 PM »
Alfred, I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. Most of the people here are very well educated in the Scriptures, theology, patristics, and Church history. You certainly are not going to convert anyone on this forum.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #162 on: September 03, 2010, 12:19:55 AM »
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.





Look at it this way, Let's say I know very little of Carpentry,and I get a phone call from a major Hardware store,and they told me that I have won $20,000 worth of tools for Carpentry, you could say I was THOROUGHLY FURNISHED for any carpentry job I could ever do,but my with my in-experience of carpentry and woodworking would prevent me from doing a professional job,it is the same thing with your 2 Timothy analogy!!

Good argument, but it overlooks scripture making one "complete":

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete,
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

"may be complete" by scripture alone, without need for councils.

Recall what is written in verse 15:

15 ...the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

The Holy Scriptures are ABLE to make wise unto salvation...provided its testimony about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, is believed.

There again the sufficiency of scripture is taught, in Christ.





Of course scripture can make one wise unto salvation,and furnish one with ALL the nessessary tools for good works,but there are many who also mis-use these tools and twist scripture to their own destruction!!!

It is written:

 5 and they said to him, Behold, thou art grown old, and thy sons walk not in thy way; and now set over us a king to judge us, as also the other nations have.
 6 And the thing was evil in the eyes of Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us: and Samuel prayed to the Lord.
 7 And the Lord said to Samuel, Hear the voice of the people, in whatever they shall say to thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me from reigning over them.
 (1Sa 8:5-7 LXE)

Again:

 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

How does the Spirit "bear witness?" Paul made this clear:

NKJ  Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,

God prefers one on one communication to our conscience...so we know what is right and wrong.

Its not verbal, and we can "get it wrong," but when we do, we "perceive" something is amiss, and that "doubt" should compel an investigation into the Scripture of Truth, God's Holy Word.

God does not desire Kings, popes, gurus...etc etc ad nauseam, reigning over us...He is our King.


LXE  Jeremiah 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be to me a people, and I will be to them a God: for they shall turn to me with all their heart. (Jer 24:7 LXE)


« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 12:22:22 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #163 on: September 03, 2010, 12:25:16 AM »
I think the "complete" argument is weak because the verse need not be understood in the way that Alfred understands it.
Look, lets say that I have a "complete" set of tools. If you take my hammer away it is not longer complete. But giving the hammer back would make it "complete"; yet, it is not the only tool that makes the set complete. If any tool is missing, it is not complete.
The scriptures are similar. They are necessary for our faith to be complete. Yet they are not the only thing necessary for our faith to be complete. Holy Tradition and the experience of the Saints is necessary as well.
Keep this is mind,
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - 2 Thess 2:15   
Sounds like the bible explicitly rejects the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.


Your analogy has an incompatible property, you have equipment being taken away, but that idea doesn't exist in the text, hence your analogy is nonanalogous.

Paul says Scripture equips completely, he can't be wrong about this, because that apostolic teaching is now scripture which means God also wrote it with him.

God can't be wrong, don't you agree?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #164 on: September 03, 2010, 12:29:25 AM »
Alfred, I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. Most of the people here are very well educated in the Scriptures, theology, patristics, and Church history. You certainly are not going to convert anyone on this forum.

I proselytize for Christ alone...not any church. I could care less if you remain Orthodox...or whatever...

KJV  Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20 KJV)

But He will never come in as long as images defile the house.


LXE  Ezekiel 8:6 And he said to me, Son of man, hast thou seen what these do? They commit great abominations here so that I should keep away from my sanctuary: and thou shalt see yet greater iniquities. (Eze 8:6 LXE)
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 12:46:16 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #165 on: September 03, 2010, 12:36:02 AM »
Alfred, I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. Most of the people here are very well educated in the Scriptures, theology, patristics, and Church history. You certainly are not going to convert anyone on this forum.

Indeed! Speaking for myself, as one not "well educated in the Scriptures, theology, patristics and Church history" (but who's learning), I would say that my faith in holy Orthodoxy has strengthened -- not diminished -- through these discussions with Alfred.  My passion for God and understanding of Him, and relationship with Him, and thankfulness for what He's done, and my desire to "press into that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me" through repentance, etc. are all growing through His established church. No more individual interpretations confusing everything with the myriads of opinion.  Glory to God for all things!  
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 12:37:24 AM by Thankful »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #166 on: September 03, 2010, 12:49:31 AM »
Alfred, I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. Most of the people here are very well educated in the Scriptures, theology, patristics, and Church history. You certainly are not going to convert anyone on this forum.

Indeed! Speaking for myself, as one not "well educated in the Scriptures, theology, patristics and Church history" (but who's learning), I would say that my faith in holy Orthodoxy has strengthened -- not diminished -- through these discussions with Alfred.  My passion for God and understanding of Him, and relationship with Him, and thankfulness for what He's done, and my desire to "press into that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me" through repentance, etc. are all growing through His established church. No more individual interpretations confusing everything with the myriads of opinion.  Glory to God for all things!  

My exegesis is the antithesis of confused, you should read it again.

Its much easier learning what God has to say in the Scripture, than listening to the often conflicting statements of the "fathers", who, by the way, never cite each other or any "reverend" as their authority...they cite scripture, or a universal interpretation of scripture, as their authority.

Much easier to let God instruct you via the scripture.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #167 on: September 03, 2010, 01:02:47 AM »
My exegesis is the antithesis of confused, you should read it again.

 :laugh:

You make God too difficult to know, Alfred. With you it's all about whether or not I can wrap my head around the words you are saying. I have to wade through pages and pages of text. Christ is not text -- he's a living, breathing person, whose "body" is the Church (also a living, breathing entity).  You don't seem to understand the simple equations of Christ = The Word (you speak as if text on a page is His Word), and The Church, Holy & Undivided = His Body. It's simple.  You make it too hard.    

Within this Church, His Body, He's right there, His way, all the time. We abide; He abides.  His Ark is a safe place -- it didn't crash in the first centuries as some suppose.  He is with us always, even unto the end of the age.  

God's best to you, Alfred.  
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 01:28:46 AM by Thankful »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #168 on: September 03, 2010, 01:19:35 AM »
I think the "complete" argument is weak because the verse need not be understood in the way that Alfred understands it.
Look, lets say that I have a "complete" set of tools. If you take my hammer away it is not longer complete. But giving the hammer back would make it "complete"; yet, it is not the only tool that makes the set complete. If any tool is missing, it is not complete.
The scriptures are similar. They are necessary for our faith to be complete. Yet they are not the only thing necessary for our faith to be complete. Holy Tradition and the experience of the Saints is necessary as well.
Keep this is mind,
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - 2 Thess 2:15   
Sounds like the bible explicitly rejects the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.


Your analogy has an incompatible property, you have equipment being taken away, but that idea doesn't exist in the text, hence your analogy is nonanalogous.

Paul says Scripture equips completely, he can't be wrong about this, because that apostolic teaching is now scripture which means God also wrote it with him.

God can't be wrong, ...
But you can.
Not all who wander are lost.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #169 on: September 03, 2010, 02:28:42 AM »
Again the preaching in the tradition of man is given to us divorced from holy tradition by inflating an aspect of heavenly worship within holy tradition counter to its meaning reduced to legalistic, justification of human reasoning. Case in point, "the cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 are reduced by individualist rationalization to an obituary listing by opinion that replaces their role within the scripture since it is their witness that assists us to "lay aside every weight and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2 in part).

The tradition of man being preached to us keeps boasting in the scripture that we do not follow scripture which is false and refernces to Calvin for wisdom are poison to us. To expand on the cloud of witness idea, if I was an Ethiopian Orthodox, this concept would be easily Biblically illustrated to me on the basis that the book of Enoch which is in the canon of their church states, "...I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, & praying for the sons of men.." (enoch 39:4). This is the understanding we see within the letter of Hebrews and the roll call given by St. Paul (which includes Enoch) in Hebrews 11 of the faithful witnesses in which the point culminates in Hebrews 12:1. The concept of the many habitations seems most similar to what the Lord says, "In My Father's house are many mansions..."in John 14:2.

Why Enoch is not universal canon, I do not know (it was lost for over 1000 years in many areas) but it was written before & attests to the revelation of the Son of God in many areas & clearly evident within holy tradtion & such attestation expressed in liturgical worship centuries prior to the codification of canon beats guess work of the apostolic faith expressed by a tradtion of man.

A self contradiction, decrying the "tradition of man" you bind yourself to Orthodox tradition, which realized its defects and sought to stabilize itself in the "consensus of the fathers."

Sola scriptura is the antidote for relying upon "the tradition of man," for the Bible is written by God.


.



So the same book that St. Jude quotes from in his epistle as scripture is a tradition of man. Why refer anywhere else to scripture & source other than your postings?

You assume he quotes Enoch, both could just as likely be citing the same tradition that is unknown today.

BUT lets assume you are correct, does it follow the book should be canon?

Paul quotes two "poets", Epimenides the Cretan (c. 600 B.C.) "For in thee we live and move and have our being” and Phainomena  a Cilician Aratus (born 310 B.C.) about Zeus: "for we are truly his offspring.”  

KJV  Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. (Act 17:28 KJV)  

Are these are to be made canon? Of course not, therefore neither should Enoch. The content of the book clearly conflicts with NT teaching.


 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)
U
Well there are different ways in which the Lord, St. Paul or writers in the Old Testament quoted and sometimes from outside the known canon. For ex. Joshua 10:13 (KJV), "And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher?..." By your logic I guess the writer of Joshua is being unscriptural & perhaps needs to consult you? I mean where is the book of Jasher to be found? You tell me that St. Jude is not quoting from Enoch? My 1st RSV Bible given to me in elementary Methodist Sunday school says otherwise. You say there is no revelation in Enoch that was written prior to the NT even though linkage was discovered between the scriptures?

For ex.
Revelation 20:11-13,15: "I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,...and I saw the dead small & great, standing before the throne; and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged out of these things that were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the deadwhich were in it, and death & hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Enoch 42:3, "He sat upon the throne of his glory, while the book of the living was opened in his presence, and while all the powers which were above the heavens sttod around & before him."

Enoch 50:1-2, "In those days shall the earth deliver up from her womb, and hell dekiver up from hers, that which is received, and destruction shall restore that which it owes. He shall select the righteous & holy from among them."

Enoch 54:12, "In those days shall the mouth of hell be opened, into which they shall be immerged; hell shall destroy & swallow up sinners from the face of the elect."

REvelation 22:1, "I saw a new heaven & a new earth, for the first heaven & the first earth were passed away."

Enoch 92:17, "The former heaven shall depart & pass away, a new heaven shall appear."

I cannot see how there is no progressive revelation from this work to the NT, especially to St. John the apostle who testifies to so much that is not recorded re the Lord (per John 21:25). In the 2nd epistle of John (vs. 12), " Having many things to write to unto you, I would not write with paper & ink.." In the 3rd epistle of John (vs.13), " I had many things to write, but I will not with ink & pen write unto thee:"

Most of us here have experienced the approach you give us in claiming what are tradtions of men vs. holy tradtition with the standard, "that's not in the Bible" text proof approach. Those who are unaware of Orthodox tradtion often righteously follow Christ guided by the Holy Spirit & reading the Bible. Perhaps more could perhaps be done by the Orthodox Church to evangelize in the west (I am deficient in this so I do not want to hypocritically criticise the church). But I have no idea of what you preach to us.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #170 on: September 03, 2010, 08:04:00 AM »

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete,
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

"may be complete" by scripture alone, without need for councils.

Recall what is written in verse 15:

15 ...the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

The Holy Scriptures are ABLE to make wise unto salvation...provided its testimony about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, is believed.

There again the sufficiency of scripture is taught, in Christ.
Alfred, you're still quoting 2 Timothy 3:16-17, and not only that but here you've unhooked the last part of verse 15 from the part about which I've been asking. What are the Holy Scriptures that Timothy would have known from childhood?

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #171 on: September 03, 2010, 08:10:43 AM »
Again the preaching in the tradition of man is given to us divorced from holy tradition by inflating an aspect of heavenly worship within holy tradition counter to its meaning reduced to legalistic, justification of human reasoning. Case in point, "the cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 are reduced by individualist rationalization to an obituary listing by opinion that replaces their role within the scripture since it is their witness that assists us to "lay aside every weight and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2 in part).

The tradition of man being preached to us keeps boasting in the scripture that we do not follow scripture which is false and refernces to Calvin for wisdom are poison to us. To expand on the cloud of witness idea, if I was an Ethiopian Orthodox, this concept would be easily Biblically illustrated to me on the basis that the book of Enoch which is in the canon of their church states, "...I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, & praying for the sons of men.." (enoch 39:4). This is the understanding we see within the letter of Hebrews and the roll call given by St. Paul (which includes Enoch) in Hebrews 11 of the faithful witnesses in which the point culminates in Hebrews 12:1. The concept of the many habitations seems most similar to what the Lord says, "In My Father's house are many mansions..."in John 14:2.

Why Enoch is not universal canon, I do not know (it was lost for over 1000 years in many areas) but it was written before & attests to the revelation of the Son of God in many areas & clearly evident within holy tradtion & such attestation expressed in liturgical worship centuries prior to the codification of canon beats guess work of the apostolic faith expressed by a tradtion of man.

A self contradiction, decrying the "tradition of man" you bind yourself to Orthodox tradition, which realized its defects and sought to stabilize itself in the "consensus of the fathers."

Sola scriptura is the antidote for relying upon "the tradition of man," for the Bible is written by God.


.



So the same book that St. Jude quotes from in his epistle as scripture is a tradition of man. Why refer anywhere else to scripture & source other than your postings?

You assume he quotes Enoch, both could just as likely be citing the same tradition that is unknown today.

BUT lets assume you are correct, does it follow the book should be canon?

Paul quotes two "poets", Epimenides the Cretan (c. 600 B.C.) "For in thee we live and move and have our being” and Phainomena  a Cilician Aratus (born 310 B.C.) about Zeus: "for we are truly his offspring.”  

KJV  Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. (Act 17:28 KJV)  

Are these are to be made canon? Of course not, therefore neither should Enoch. The content of the book clearly conflicts with NT teaching.


 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)
U
Well there are different ways in which the Lord, St. Paul or writers in the Old Testament quoted and sometimes from outside the known canon. For ex. Joshua 10:13 (KJV), "And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher?..." By your logic I guess the writer of Joshua is being unscriptural & perhaps needs to consult you? I mean where is the book of Jasher to be found? You tell me that St. Jude is not quoting from Enoch? My 1st RSV Bible given to me in elementary Methodist Sunday school says otherwise. You say there is no revelation in Enoch that was written prior to the NT even though linkage was discovered between the scriptures?

For ex.
Revelation 20:11-13,15: "I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,...and I saw the dead small & great, standing before the throne; and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged out of these things that were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the deadwhich were in it, and death & hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Enoch 42:3, "He sat upon the throne of his glory, while the book of the living was opened in his presence, and while all the powers which were above the heavens sttod around & before him."

Enoch 50:1-2, "In those days shall the earth deliver up from her womb, and hell dekiver up from hers, that which is received, and destruction shall restore that which it owes. He shall select the righteous & holy from among them."

Enoch 54:12, "In those days shall the mouth of hell be opened, into which they shall be immerged; hell shall destroy & swallow up sinners from the face of the elect."

REvelation 22:1, "I saw a new heaven & a new earth, for the first heaven & the first earth were passed away."

Enoch 92:17, "The former heaven shall depart & pass away, a new heaven shall appear."

I cannot see how there is no progressive revelation from this work to the NT, especially to St. John the apostle who testifies to so much that is not recorded re the Lord (per John 21:25). In the 2nd epistle of John (vs. 12), " Having many things to write to unto you, I would not write with paper & ink.." In the 3rd epistle of John (vs.13), " I had many things to write, but I will not with ink & pen write unto thee:"

Most of us here have experienced the approach you give us in claiming what are tradtions of men vs. holy tradtition with the standard, "that's not in the Bible" text proof approach. Those who are unaware of Orthodox tradtion often righteously follow Christ guided by the Holy Spirit & reading the Bible. Perhaps more could perhaps be done by the Orthodox Church to evangelize in the west (I am deficient in this so I do not want to hypocritically criticise the church). But I have no idea of what you preach to us.


Not unscriptural as reference to information is not claiming a teaching based on it is inerrant word of God.

Moreover, simply lacking the book of Jasher doesn't prove God and Paul wrong, both say scripture is ABLE to make wise unto salvation

The Greek preposition σοφίσαι εἰς σωτηρίαν (2Ti 3:15 STE) is "eis",  wise INTO salvation, not wise up to the door of salvation only.

The text specifies "through faith which is in Christ Jesus" thus identifying the "bare minimum of wisdom required to enter salvation," that one accept scripture's testimony Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God:

 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


I don't argue against all other books or tradition, these certainly can aid one's obtaining the correct answers. I unequivocally affirm scripture is ABLE to make wise INTO salvation, because God and Paul say so.


It is impossible you prove them wrong.


AND similarities between Bible books and non canonical books prove nothing, just as the similar rectangular shape of a car and similar materials doesn't prove its a child of the Empire State Building, or eyes, ears, nose and mouth men come from apes, or horses as our blood is closer to that of horses.

Therefore the missing book of Jasher, whose importance was likely was exhausted in the biblical reference, is immaterial.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 08:13:03 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #172 on: September 03, 2010, 08:16:20 AM »

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete,
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

"may be complete" by scripture alone, without need for councils.

Recall what is written in verse 15:

15 ...the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

The Holy Scriptures are ABLE to make wise unto salvation...provided its testimony about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, is believed.

There again the sufficiency of scripture is taught, in Christ.
Alfred, you're still quoting 2 Timothy 3:16-17, and not only that but here you've unhooked the last part of verse 15 from the part about which I've been asking. What are the Holy Scriptures that Timothy would have known from childhood?

The old testament, which makes Paul's statement even more sure. As the Old Testament Timothy knew as a child is able to make wise unto salvation, how much more is that true now that we have the Old Testament and the New Testament?

Contrary to the speculation of some, the addition of the NT doesn't indicate the OT was insufficient, just as the serving of more food at the end of a feast doesn't indicate the guests were starving to death.

NKJ  Isaiah 55:1 "Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price.
 2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
 3 Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live;
 (Isa 55:1-3 NKJ)
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 08:17:01 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline jnorm888

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #173 on: September 03, 2010, 10:49:53 AM »
It does NOT say that only scripture is the Word of God.

True, but why should I look elsewhere for the Word of God when it says its able to make me complete, thoroughly equipped?

IN other words, if I sit at the banquet, fully satisfied, should I go off into the desert in search of more food? Of course not.

BUT another scripture denies God's word is channeled through the church...

NKJ  1 Corinthians 14:36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? (1Co 14:36 NKJ)

God spoke through the apostles, not the church:

 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
 (Heb 2:3-4 NKJ)


If God were speaking though someone in particular, they would manifest the same miraculous signs the apostles and Christ did.

No signs...no successors to the apostles...no word of God being delivered:

NKJ  Jude 1:3 contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3 NKJ)

There aren't multiple deliveries...it was already delivered, "once" and then it was up to us to contend for that truth.

Not invent novel truths as the centuries came and went.





Look at it this way, Let's say I know very little of Carpentry,and I get a phone call from a major Hardware store,and they told me that I have won $20,000 worth of tools for Carpentry, you could say I was THOROUGHLY FURNISHED for any carpentry job I could ever do,but my with my in-experience of carpentry and woodworking would prevent me from doing a professional job,it is the same thing with your 2 Timothy analogy!!

Good argument, but it overlooks scripture making one "complete":

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete,
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

"may be complete" by scripture alone, without need for councils.

Recall what is written in verse 15:

15 ...the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Ti 3:15 NKJ)

The Holy Scriptures are ABLE to make wise unto salvation...provided its testimony about Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God, is believed.

There again the sufficiency of scripture is taught, in Christ.





Of course scripture can make one wise unto salvation,and furnish one with ALL the nessessary tools for good works,but there are many who also mis-use these tools and twist scripture to their own destruction!!!

It is written:

 5 and they said to him, Behold, thou art grown old, and thy sons walk not in thy way; and now set over us a king to judge us, as also the other nations have.
 6 And the thing was evil in the eyes of Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us: and Samuel prayed to the Lord.
 7 And the Lord said to Samuel, Hear the voice of the people, in whatever they shall say to thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me from reigning over them.
 (1Sa 8:5-7 LXE)

Again:

 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

How does the Spirit "bear witness?" Paul made this clear:

NKJ  Romans 9:1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,

God prefers one on one communication to our conscience...so we know what is right and wrong.

Its not verbal, and we can "get it wrong," but when we do, we "perceive" something is amiss, and that "doubt" should compel an investigation into the Scripture of Truth, God's Holy Word.

God does not desire Kings, popes, gurus...etc etc ad nauseam, reigning over us...He is our King.


LXE  Jeremiah 24:7 And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord: and they shall be to me a people, and I will be to them a God: for they shall turn to me with all their heart. (Jer 24:7 LXE)

Why do you keep refusing to check your interpretations with the church fathers and early christian witnesses?

You must believe that it's impossible for you to miss-read a text or something.

Do you believe your reading of Scripture to be infallible?

That's what it seems like to me.

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Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #174 on: September 03, 2010, 01:35:27 PM »
Contrary to the speculation of some, the addition of the NT doesn't indicate the OT was insufficient....
Alfred, you must know that I'm certainly not in that group. I'm quite aware of Jesus' exposition of the Scriptures (i.e. OT) to Cleopas and his companion on the road to Emmaus; and of Philip's explanations to the Ethiopian on the "Jerusalem to Gaza highway". Note, though, that in both cases, the Scriptures needed to be interpreted correctly.

One could more easily make the opposite argument, that because of the OT's sufficiency, the NT is redundant if not unnecessary. Let me say quite firmly that I am NOT making that argument. I do not support it. Just making a point, that's all.

But Alfred, now consider how verse 14 of 2 Timothy 3 connects to verse 15 (emphasis mine):
Quote
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15  and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (NKJV)

The Holy Scriptures were not the only source of learning for Timothy. In what do you suppose Paul was encouraging Timothy to continue in addition to what he knew of the Holy Scriptures?

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #175 on: September 03, 2010, 01:40:08 PM »
I think the "complete" argument is weak because the verse need not be understood in the way that Alfred understands it.
Look, lets say that I have a "complete" set of tools. If you take my hammer away it is not longer complete. But giving the hammer back would make it "complete"; yet, it is not the only tool that makes the set complete. If any tool is missing, it is not complete.
The scriptures are similar. They are necessary for our faith to be complete. Yet they are not the only thing necessary for our faith to be complete. Holy Tradition and the experience of the Saints is necessary as well.
Keep this is mind,
"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - 2 Thess 2:15   
Sounds like the bible explicitly rejects the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.


Your analogy has an incompatible property, you have equipment being taken away, but that idea doesn't exist in the text, hence your analogy is nonanalogous.

Paul says Scripture equips completely, he can't be wrong about this, because that apostolic teaching is now scripture which means God also wrote it with him.

God can't be wrong, don't you agree?
God can't be wrong, but Alfred certainly is.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #176 on: September 03, 2010, 01:41:46 PM »
Hey Alfred,

""Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." - 2 Thess 2:15
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #177 on: September 03, 2010, 01:54:09 PM »
I'll answer you, but first tell me this: where does the New Testament claim to be the sole, all-encompassing, and comprehensive source of history and doctrine from the Apostolic age, describing in indisputable detail every single important event or doctrinal detail? That is the crux of our problem. Until you can answer that, your arguments from silence are pointless, as you have not established that your position is anything more than a presupposition.

Because if the New Testament is not the sole, all-encompassing, comprehensive source for all things that you seem to imply that it is, the answer doesn't matter. If there is no record of that happening, we can't say if it did or not. We certainly cannot rule it out. If there is a record of it happening, you lose automatically.

In other words, first prove that the answer to the question is worth a hill of beans, and then I'll answer it. If you can't, then I won't.

I never said it did, BUT it claims to have everything necessary for my being completely equipped:

 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 (2Ti 3:15-1 NKJ)

In context it may be Paul says this about the Old Testament only. Therefore some argue Paul must be wrong as God added the New Testament later.

As God allowed Paul's words here, to become scripture, He set His seal upon it that He agrees with Paul 100%, as it became scripture, its God writing it too.

BUT God and Paul aren't wrong, consider this analogy:

It does not prove the guests of a banquet were starving to death, when the host offers them more food near its end.

The Old Testament is able to make wise unto salvation, therefore, how much more is Scripture able to completely equip for every good work, including teaching others true doctrine, now that the New Testament has been added!

Now answer my question.

(I think PeterTheAleut gave a fine response, but for my own part—)

No, actually it doesn't claim that. You are once again defaulting to reading the words through your bias.

The text does say that Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction. And because of that doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, he will be equipped.

The text does not say that the Scripture itself equips people. Rather they are equipped by these things that are derived from scripture. (We could get into a whole discussion about this by itself, but it's beside the point.)

My point is: even in this verse, which stands at the very pinnacle of the Sola Scriptura defense, the Bible does not claim to be all-sufficient or all-equipping. The Bible does not claim sole authority for itself, as you yourself admitted. Nor does it claim that every single doctrine and practice must flow from its pages. Therefore, whether prayers to the saints are in the Bible or not—it doesn't matter—it has zero bearing on the legitimacy of such a practice, because the Bible is not intrinsically all-encompassing and all-sufficient. If it was, it would say so.

Incorrect, the text says God wrote scripture IN ORDER THAT (hina) the man of God be complete.

You allege God failed in His mission.

I think that an odd place for a Christian to be.

No, it does not say that, Alfred. It says:

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

It is utterly nonsensical to interpret it the way you do. A man of God is not complete simply because he reads the Bible. A man of God is complete because his life is conformed to God's will. He conforms to God's will because he has learned doctrine, been reproofed, been corrected, and been instructed in righteousness. And Scripture is a profitable means to those ends, though it nowhere says it is the sole means.

As for God's failing his mission, I stand firmly on the truth that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. :)

Its nonsense to believe what it says?


 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
     ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

HINA, lit. "in order that"; "so that"

NAU  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

NIB  2 Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

All scripture is given....in order that the man of God may thoroughly equipped.


That's what it says, literally.




You still have not proven scripture's exclusivity, however.

You keep pointing to this verse, but it only means what you want it mean if it is read through your presuppositions. You are inferring that, because scripture helps us to be fully equipped, scripture is exclusive in that regard. But it doesn't say that, sorry.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2010, 01:57:13 PM by bogdan »

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #178 on: September 03, 2010, 02:04:16 PM »
I proselytize for Christ alone...not any church. I could care less if you remain Orthodox...or whatever...

You do realize Christ established a Church, right? It's not just "me and Jesus", despite what many demonic "gospel" tracts say.

The Church is the pillar and ground of truth, a title the Bible doesn't even claim for itself.

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #179 on: September 03, 2010, 02:10:27 PM »
Again the preaching in the tradition of man is given to us divorced from holy tradition by inflating an aspect of heavenly worship within holy tradition counter to its meaning reduced to legalistic, justification of human reasoning. Case in point, "the cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1 are reduced by individualist rationalization to an obituary listing by opinion that replaces their role within the scripture since it is their witness that assists us to "lay aside every weight and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2 in part).

The tradition of man being preached to us keeps boasting in the scripture that we do not follow scripture which is false and refernces to Calvin for wisdom are poison to us. To expand on the cloud of witness idea, if I was an Ethiopian Orthodox, this concept would be easily Biblically illustrated to me on the basis that the book of Enoch which is in the canon of their church states, "...I saw the habitations and couches of the saints. There my eyes beheld their habitations with the angels, and their couches with the holy ones. They were entreating, supplicating, & praying for the sons of men.." (enoch 39:4). This is the understanding we see within the letter of Hebrews and the roll call given by St. Paul (which includes Enoch) in Hebrews 11 of the faithful witnesses in which the point culminates in Hebrews 12:1. The concept of the many habitations seems most similar to what the Lord says, "In My Father's house are many mansions..."in John 14:2.

Why Enoch is not universal canon, I do not know (it was lost for over 1000 years in many areas) but it was written before & attests to the revelation of the Son of God in many areas & clearly evident within holy tradtion & such attestation expressed in liturgical worship centuries prior to the codification of canon beats guess work of the apostolic faith expressed by a tradtion of man.

A self contradiction, decrying the "tradition of man" you bind yourself to Orthodox tradition, which realized its defects and sought to stabilize itself in the "consensus of the fathers."

Sola scriptura is the antidote for relying upon "the tradition of man," for the Bible is written by God.


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So the same book that St. Jude quotes from in his epistle as scripture is a tradition of man. Why refer anywhere else to scripture & source other than your postings?

You assume he quotes Enoch, both could just as likely be citing the same tradition that is unknown today.

BUT lets assume you are correct, does it follow the book should be canon?

Paul quotes two "poets", Epimenides the Cretan (c. 600 B.C.) "For in thee we live and move and have our being” and Phainomena  a Cilician Aratus (born 310 B.C.) about Zeus: "for we are truly his offspring.”  

KJV  Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. (Act 17:28 KJV)  

Are these are to be made canon? Of course not, therefore neither should Enoch. The content of the book clearly conflicts with NT teaching.


 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)
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Well there are different ways in which the Lord, St. Paul or writers in the Old Testament quoted and sometimes from outside the known canon. For ex. Joshua 10:13 (KJV), "And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher?..." By your logic I guess the writer of Joshua is being unscriptural & perhaps needs to consult you? I mean where is the book of Jasher to be found? You tell me that St. Jude is not quoting from Enoch? My 1st RSV Bible given to me in elementary Methodist Sunday school says otherwise. You say there is no revelation in Enoch that was written prior to the NT even though linkage was discovered between the scriptures?

For ex.
Revelation 20:11-13,15: "I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,...and I saw the dead small & great, standing before the throne; and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged out of these things that were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the deadwhich were in it, and death & hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Enoch 42:3, "He sat upon the throne of his glory, while the book of the living was opened in his presence, and while all the powers which were above the heavens sttod around & before him."

Enoch 50:1-2, "In those days shall the earth deliver up from her womb, and hell dekiver up from hers, that which is received, and destruction shall restore that which it owes. He shall select the righteous & holy from among them."

Enoch 54:12, "In those days shall the mouth of hell be opened, into which they shall be immerged; hell shall destroy & swallow up sinners from the face of the elect."

REvelation 22:1, "I saw a new heaven & a new earth, for the first heaven & the first earth were passed away."

Enoch 92:17, "The former heaven shall depart & pass away, a new heaven shall appear."

I cannot see how there is no progressive revelation from this work to the NT, especially to St. John the apostle who testifies to so much that is not recorded re the Lord (per John 21:25). In the 2nd epistle of John (vs. 12), " Having many things to write to unto you, I would not write with paper & ink.." In the 3rd epistle of John (vs.13), " I had many things to write, but I will not with ink & pen write unto thee:"

Most of us here have experienced the approach you give us in claiming what are tradtions of men vs. holy tradtition with the standard, "that's not in the Bible" text proof approach. Those who are unaware of Orthodox tradtion often righteously follow Christ guided by the Holy Spirit & reading the Bible. Perhaps more could perhaps be done by the Orthodox Church to evangelize in the west (I am deficient in this so I do not want to hypocritically criticise the church). But I have no idea of what you preach to us.


Not unscriptural as reference to information is not claiming a teaching based on it is inerrant word of God.

Moreover, simply lacking the book of Jasher doesn't prove God and Paul wrong, both say scripture is ABLE to make wise unto salvation

The Greek preposition σοφίσαι εἰς σωτηρίαν (2Ti 3:15 STE) is "eis",  wise INTO salvation, not wise up to the door of salvation only.

The text specifies "through faith which is in Christ Jesus" thus identifying the "bare minimum of wisdom required to enter salvation," that one accept scripture's testimony Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God:

 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)


I don't argue against all other books or tradition, these certainly can aid one's obtaining the correct answers. I unequivocally affirm scripture is ABLE to make wise INTO salvation, because God and Paul say so.


It is impossible you prove them wrong.


AND similarities between Bible books and non canonical books prove nothing, just as the similar rectangular shape of a car and similar materials doesn't prove its a child of the Empire State Building, or eyes, ears, nose and mouth men come from apes, or horses as our blood is closer to that of horses.

Therefore the missing book of Jasher, whose importance was likely was exhausted in the biblical reference, is immaterial.

Your whole contention of "proving God or Paul" wrong is impossible since my point is to argue against what you preach not God's revelation to us preserved in the holy church. We all know Jesus Christ is Lord & Savior, the primacy of faith in the Gospels, we state our faith as noted in the Nicene Creed, we know the 2 great commands, we know the 10 commandments, the Lord's prayer, we are called to fast, pray, & give alms, to confess individually & to call our priest as our witness, to partake of the Eucharist, to pray the Lord of the harvest & evangelize if God deems us worthy. These are the core basics of our faith easily found in the Holy Bible you utilize to preach foreign doctrine us. You try to argue re the icons, or belief that the Theokos is ever virgin etc. are not "Biblical" according to your tradition or that aspects of revelation are not in conformity to God's revelation as given in the Holy Bible because basically you say so. It is the core basics of our living faith that will, but do not yet, lead to what St. Paul states in Ephesians 2:8-10 re salvation by grace, not by works but for good works. St. Paul also tells us, "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." (Phillipians 3:14). If you cannot see these as what are the Orthodox faith then you are clearly outside the church & preach foreign doctrine to us; a heretic (not an understanding I automatically have towards non Orthodox Christians).
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