Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 191851 times)

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1305 on: October 25, 2010, 12:04:21 AM »
PROVE IT.

I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request.

(Means "no".)

This is not a game of comparisons. Your goal was to come here and convert us to your heresy. You haven't done that. The most you can do is drag our beliefs through the mud. Yet you have nothing better to offer (i.e., you haven't proven Sola Scriptura to not be heresy), so why would I ever play your game?

If you persist on calling me names, its not I who is the troll.



One of your icons?
Honestly, Alfred, that was quite rude. Feel free to argue against our tradition of venerating icons all you want, but please respect the fact that icons are very important to us by not taking such puerile cheap shots at their aesthetics.

Rude was posting it to me.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1306 on: October 25, 2010, 12:09:46 AM »
PROVE IT.

I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request.

(Means "no".)

This is not a game of comparisons. Your goal was to come here and convert us to your heresy. You haven't done that. The most you can do is drag our beliefs through the mud. Yet you have nothing better to offer (i.e., you haven't proven Sola Scriptura to not be heresy), so why would I ever play your game?

If you persist on calling me names, its not I who is the troll.



One of your icons?
Honestly, Alfred, that was quite rude. Feel free to argue against our tradition of venerating icons all you want, but please respect the fact that icons are very important to us by not taking such puerile cheap shots at their aesthetics.

Rude was posting it to me.
Maybe so, and the moderators will deal with it as they deem appropriate, but such rudeness done to you does not justify the incredibly ruder reply you shot back. IF the moderators deem it necessary to sanction the person who posted the picture of the troll, be advised that you will not be spared equal or harsher sanctions for your act of rudeness just because "he started it," especially since you could have used the "Report to Moderator" function to privately report the post you found so offensive.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 01:01:54 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1307 on: October 25, 2010, 12:20:25 AM »
St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church is a wonderful place.  They have a well-publicized Greek festival every year with delicious food, dancing and music.  Well worth a visit!
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1308 on: October 25, 2010, 12:32:16 AM »
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Ti 2:15-1 KJV)

You try interpreting that with your gentile traditions, and church councils, and so prove the superiority of your traditions.

How precisely are women saved in childbearing, it does not seem to be the case:

18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
 (Gen 35:18-19 KJV)

AND why is her salvation dependent upon the continued faithfulness of her children...so she won't be saved if they are unfaithful...how is THAT teaching Christian?

Sola scriptura can easily interpret this texts, because we are open to the context, and the interpretation that best resolves the ambiguity, is consistent with the grammar and syntax, is the correct one.

BUT YOU are completely unable to interpret this verse, with your traditions and church councils.

Compared to a sola scripturaist , you are handicapped, crippled, unable to walk even with all your helps.


WTH are you talking about? What is this, The Da Vinci Code? Is that Tom Hanks in the shadows, spewing a bunch of crypto-nonsense? What you say above makes no sense at all.

I have a few passages from the Fathers I could share from their commentaries, but I don't feel like descending back into the mire with you. We don't need even more troll bait around here.

Its a simple request. You claim Orthodox tradition is apostolic, that in the context of Orthodox Tradition, the NT can be correctly understood.

PROVE IT.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Ti 2:15-1 KJV)

Tell me what this apostolic teaching is, using your Traditions.


How precisely are women saved in childbearing, it does not seem to be the case:

18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
 (Gen 35:18-19 KJV)

AND how can her salvation depend upon the continued faithfulness of her children...why does Paul say she will pay for the sins of her children?

Sola scriptura can easily interpret this because we are open to the context, and the interpretation that best resolves the ambiguity, that is consistent with the grammar and syntax, is the correct one.

YOU Orthodox however, claim great things for your tradition, BUT is it really better than sola scriptura?

PROVE IT, Tell me what Paul meant.



Pop fly to left field!

First, how does Rachel's physical death in childbirth, a common occurrence until recent times and one St Paul and his readers would have known quite well, have anything to do with the I Tim passage you cite?  What exactly are you getting at here?  St Paul is not speaking of physical salvation and safety.

Second, what are you leaving out?

" I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.  Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve.  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.  Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control."

Seems to me that it is saying that child-rearing and good works are the proper ministry for women.  

What do my betters have to say?

'But how was Adam not deceived? If he was not deceived, he did not then transgress? Attend carefully. The woman said, "The serpent beguiled me." But the man did not say, The woman deceived me, but, "she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." Now it is not the same thing to be deceived by a fellow-creature, one of the same kind, as by an inferior and subordinate animal. This is truly to be deceived. Compared therefore with the woman, he is spoken of as "not deceived." For she was beguiled by an inferior and subject, he by an equal. Again, it is not said of the man, that he "saw the tree was good for food," but of the woman, and that she "did eat, and gave it to her husband": so that he transgressed, not captivated by appetite, but merely from the persuasion of his wife. The woman taught once, and ruined all. On this account therefore he saith, let her not teach. But what is it to other women, that she suffered this? It certainly concerns them; for the sex is weak and fickle, and he is speaking of the sex collectively. For he says not Eve, but "the woman," which is the common name of the whole sex, not her proper name. Was then the whole sex included in the transgression for her fault? As he said of Adam, "After the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come" (Rom. v. 14); so here the female sex transgressed, and not the male. Shall not women then be saved? Yes, by means of children. For it is not of Eve that he says, "If they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." What faith? what charity? what holiness with sobriety? It is as if he had said, "Ye women, be not cast down, because your sex has incurred blame. God has granted you another opportunity of salvation, by the bringing up of children, so that you are saved, not only by yourselves, but by others." See how many questions are involved in this matter. "The woman," he says, "being deceived was in the transgression." What woman? Eve. Shall she then be saved by child-bearing? He does not say that, but, the race of women shall be saved. Was not it then involved in transgression? Yes, it was, still Eve transgressed, but the whole sex shall be saved, notwithstanding, "by childbearing." And why not by their own personal virtue? For has she excluded others from this salvation? And what will be the case with virgins, with the barren, with widows who have lost their husbands, before they had children? will they perish? is there no hope for them? yet virgins are held in the highest estimation. What then does he mean to say?

Some interpret his meaning thus. As what happened to the first woman occasioned the subjection of the whole sex, (for since Eve was formed second and made subject, he says, let the rest of the sex be in subjection,) so because she transgressed, the rest of the sex are also in transgression. But this is not fair reasoning; for at the creation all was the gift of God, but in this case, it is the consequence of the woman's sin. But this is the amount of what he says. As all men died through one, because that one sinned, so the whole female race transgressed, because the woman was in the transgression. Let her not however grieve. God hath given her no small consolation, that of childbearing. And if it be said that this is of nature, so is that(1) also of nature; for not only that which is of nature has been granted, but also the bringing up of children. "If they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety"; that is, if after childbearing, they keep them(2) in charity and purity. By these means they will have no small reward on their account, because they have trained up wrestlers for the service of Christ. By holiness he means good life, modesty, and sobriety.' -St John  Chrysostom Homilies on First Timothy, Homily IX
 

WHAT!

"Seems to me that it is saying that child-rearing and good works are the proper ministry for women.  "

THAT is what being immersed in Orthodox Tradition provides, a "seems to me" interpretation!

Wait one cotton picking minute...how is you talking like me, superior to me?


Actually, I was giving you my private, sola-scriptura, interpretation.  One taking the verse into proper context, perhaps, but definitely fallible.  I wouldn't call myself "immersed" in Orthodox Tradition, I've only just started putting one foot in front of the other and eating solid foods recently.
  
And I have never made any claims of superiority to you, Mr Persson.  

Quote
AS for your "betters", they seem just as confused:

Shall not women then be saved? Yes, by means of children. For it is not of Eve that he says, "If they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." What faith? what charity? what holiness with sobriety? It is as if he had said, "Ye women, be not cast down, because your sex has incurred blame. God has granted you another opportunity of salvation, by the bringing up of children, so that you are saved, not only by yourselves, but by others."

HOW is her salvation lost if they don't continue in in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

You know, it never says that salvation will be lost, you are reading that into it.  What it does say is that for a saintly mother who rears her children to be good Christians salvation is most definitely assured.

Quote
AND then he contradicts HIMSELF  and Paul saying:

Shall she then be saved by child-bearing? He does not say that, but, the race of women shall be saved

Paul didn't say the race of women will be saved, he said "she shall be saved"  σωθήσεται  third person singular.

Chrysostom contradicted both himself and Paul...

St Paul goes from talking of Adam and Eve using proper names for each in verse 13 to using only Adam's name in verse 14 and referring to "the woman", just as he was referring to "the woman" learning in silence in verse 11, and wraps it all up by saying "she will be saved in childbirth" in verse 15.  This is a common rhetorical device of St Paul's and can be found throughout his writings.  Adam sins; "the man", being all men, dies.  

St Chrysostom explains this himself just before the sentence you picked out: "But what is it to other women, that she suffered this? It certainly concerns them; for the sex is weak and fickle, and he is speaking of the sex collectively. For he says not Eve, but 'the woman,' which is the common name of the whole sex, not her proper name. Was then the whole sex included in the transgression for her fault? As he said of Adam, 'After the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come" (Rom. v. 14); so here the female sex transgressed, and not the male."

As for the grammar of the Greek being used, St Chrysostom needed no lessons, especially not from us.
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Offline Melodist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1309 on: October 25, 2010, 01:34:28 AM »
No. I want to see proof interpreting scripture within Orthodox Tradition is superior to sola scriptura, which allows consideration of every possible interpretation, but insists only the one consistent with the grammar and syntax, is correct.

Sola scriptura doesn't give you any external rule of faith other than your own personal interpretation according to your own personal understanding. You are the sole judge and authority on how to interpret any given passage.

Quote
This isn't idle conversation, eternal destinies are at stake.

Idle doesn't mean "without purpose", it means "not accomplishing anything".

Quote
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Ti 2:15-1 KJV)

Tell me what this apostolic teaching is, using your Traditions.

Doesn't Paul teach we are saved by faith in Christ, how is it this woman loses her salvation if her children do not continue in the faith?

AND how precisely are women saved in childbearing, it does not seem to be the case in scripture or in reality:

The above has been discussed already.

Quote
18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
 (Gen 35:18-19 KJV)

Well seeing how the child was named "son of my sorrow" by his mother, and "son of my right hand" by his father, born in Bethlehem...

I would understand it as a prophecy that finds its fulfuillment in Christ being born in Bethlehem, it was prophecied by Symeon that a sword would pierce Mary's soul - ultimately fulfilled on the cross, and that Christ would ascend to the right hand of His Father.

Quote
So tell me what this verse means to one immersed in Orthodox tradition like yourself

I can be sure that this is not a bad interpretation because Christ's birth in Behtlehem, passion on the cross, and sitting at the right hand of the Father, are all taught in the NT, iconography, the weekly liturgy, patristic writings, and the prayers and hymns surrounding the celebration of the Nativity, Holy Week, Pascha, and the Ascension.

Quote
If you can't interpret this verse, even though you all are immersed in Orthodox Traditions, then your claim I must be immersed first, so I can understand, was  a lie.


Proving you can interpret God's riddles is definitely an indication whether or not you have the Spirit of God, that is, if you are a member of the Body of Christ:

 11 "There is a man in your kingdom in whom is the Spirit of the Holy God. And in the days of your father, light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, were found in him; and King Nebuchadnezzar your father-- your father the king-- made him chief of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers.
 12 "Inasmuch as an excellent spirit, knowledge, understanding, interpreting dreams, solving riddles, and explaining enigmas were found in this Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar, now let Daniel be called, and he will give the interpretation."
 (Dan 5:11-12 NKJ)

How do interpret 1Tim 2:4 and Rom 8:28-30 in context with each other?

What is there to stop someone from interpreting the phrase "firstborn of all creation" as meaning that Christ is a created being?

What is there to stop someone form interpreting Col 2:9 in a non-Trinitarian sense?

When did the Holy Spirit stop guiding the Church in its worship, preaching, writings, etc?
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1310 on: October 25, 2010, 10:09:51 AM »
No. I want to see proof interpreting scripture within Orthodox Tradition is superior to sola scriptura, which allows consideration of every possible interpretation, but insists only the one consistent with the grammar and syntax, is correct.

Sola scriptura doesn't give you any external rule of faith other than your own personal interpretation according to your own personal understanding. You are the sole judge and authority on how to interpret any given passage.

Quote
This isn't idle conversation, eternal destinies are at stake.

Idle doesn't mean "without purpose", it means "not accomplishing anything".

Quote
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Ti 2:15-1 KJV)

Tell me what this apostolic teaching is, using your Traditions.

Doesn't Paul teach we are saved by faith in Christ, how is it this woman loses her salvation if her children do not continue in the faith?

AND how precisely are women saved in childbearing, it does not seem to be the case in scripture or in reality:

The above has been discussed already.

Quote
18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
 (Gen 35:18-19 KJV)

Well seeing how the child was named "son of my sorrow" by his mother, and "son of my right hand" by his father, born in Bethlehem...

I would understand it as a prophecy that finds its fulfuillment in Christ being born in Bethlehem, it was prophecied by Symeon that a sword would pierce Mary's soul - ultimately fulfilled on the cross, and that Christ would ascend to the right hand of His Father.

Quote
So tell me what this verse means to one immersed in Orthodox tradition like yourself

I can be sure that this is not a bad interpretation because Christ's birth in Behtlehem, passion on the cross, and sitting at the right hand of the Father, are all taught in the NT, iconography, the weekly liturgy, patristic writings, and the prayers and hymns surrounding the celebration of the Nativity, Holy Week, Pascha, and the Ascension.

Quote
If you can't interpret this verse, even though you all are immersed in Orthodox Traditions, then your claim I must be immersed first, so I can understand, was  a lie.


Proving you can interpret God's riddles is definitely an indication whether or not you have the Spirit of God, that is, if you are a member of the Body of Christ:

 11 "There is a man in your kingdom in whom is the Spirit of the Holy God. And in the days of your father, light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, were found in him; and King Nebuchadnezzar your father-- your father the king-- made him chief of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers.
 12 "Inasmuch as an excellent spirit, knowledge, understanding, interpreting dreams, solving riddles, and explaining enigmas were found in this Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar, now let Daniel be called, and he will give the interpretation."
 (Dan 5:11-12 NKJ)

How do interpret 1Tim 2:4 and Rom 8:28-30 in context with each other?

What is there to stop someone from interpreting the phrase "firstborn of all creation" as meaning that Christ is a created being?

What is there to stop someone form interpreting Col 2:9 in a non-Trinitarian sense?

When did the Holy Spirit stop guiding the Church in its worship, preaching, writings, etc?

Just as I thought, you can't interpret the text, your tradition doesn't accomplish what you folks claimed, it did not reveal the apostolic doctrine in this verse.


If you can't interpret this verse, even though you all are immersed in Orthodox Traditions, then your claim I must be immersed first, so I can understand, was  a lie.


Proving you can interpret God's riddles is definitely an indication whether or not you have the Spirit of God, that is, if you are a member of the Body of Christ:

 11 "There is a man in your kingdom in whom is the Spirit of the Holy God. And in the days of your father, light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, were found in him; and King Nebuchadnezzar your father-- your father the king-- made him chief of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers.
 12 "Inasmuch as an excellent spirit, knowledge, understanding, interpreting dreams, solving riddles, and explaining enigmas were found in this Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar, now let Daniel be called, and he will give the interpretation."
 (Dan 5:11-12 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 10:17:00 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1311 on: October 25, 2010, 10:14:27 AM »
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.

THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.

NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis-à-vis' any expositor in Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, that reply is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent, an evasion of the math proposed.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

Compare:

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
 (1Co 5:5 NKJ)


AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, and disagree with me, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 showing how it doesn't teach what I propose, and give another interpretation of the text I could discuss. ONLY AFTER you argue from it, another interpretation, you might cite other relevant texts in support of your interpretation and against mine.

You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.


Unfortunately, you don't get to set the rules of this game. If you're going to convince us of anything, you have to play by our rules.

Your rules put the tradition of men above the word of God.

Can you show me one scripture that commands that...then you will have done much to prove your case.

Just one text that insists your tradition, your councils, are above scripture, to be heeded against scripture.

You certainly know by now that this is not so. The Bible is the centerpiece of Christian Experience. You draw on your own limited personal experience to interpret Scripture and we draw on all of Christian experience, which is guided by the Holy Spirit as promised...in Scripture.

The central message of Christianity is not "Every man For Himself" ;)

When Scripture is left to each individual to interpret and then reinterpret, over and over through all generations, it is then based on the whims and prejudices and cultural fads of Man. You are the poster child for that.

When it is understood through the lens of Holy Tradition as an organic part of Holy Tradition, you have a rock solid assurance that you are being handed off the message of the Gospels intact, with the original intent and not just the latest pop version.

You are smart enough to understand that.  
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1312 on: October 25, 2010, 10:15:50 AM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"? 

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1313 on: October 25, 2010, 10:21:15 AM »
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.

THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.

NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis-à-vis' any expositor in Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, that reply is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent, an evasion of the math proposed.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

Compare:

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
 (1Co 5:5 NKJ)


AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, and disagree with me, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 showing how it doesn't teach what I propose, and give another interpretation of the text I could discuss. ONLY AFTER you argue from it, another interpretation, you might cite other relevant texts in support of your interpretation and against mine.

You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.


Unfortunately, you don't get to set the rules of this game. If you're going to convince us of anything, you have to play by our rules.

Your rules put the tradition of men above the word of God.

Can you show me one scripture that commands that...then you will have done much to prove your case.

Just one text that insists your tradition, your councils, are above scripture, to be heeded against scripture.

You certainly know by now that this is not so. The Bible is the centerpiece of Christian Experience. You draw on your own limited personal experience to interpret Scripture and we draw on all of Christian experience, which is guided by the Holy Spirit as promised...in Scripture.

The central message of Christianity is not "Every man For Himself" ;)

When Scripture is left to each individual to interpret and then reinterpret, over and over through all generations, it is then based on the whims and prejudices and cultural fads of Man. You are the poster child for that.

When it is understood through the lens of Holy Tradition as an organic part of Holy Tradition, you have a rock solid assurance that you are being handed off the message of the Gospels intact, with the original intent and not just the latest pop version.

You are smart enough to understand that.  

I'm smart enough to know BS when I hear it.

If you can't interpret this verse (1 Tim 2:15), even though you all are immersed in Orthodox Traditions, then your claim I must be immersed first, so I can understand, was  a lie.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1314 on: October 25, 2010, 10:28:16 AM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"? 

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1315 on: October 25, 2010, 10:37:03 AM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 10:38:32 AM by tuesdayschild »

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1316 on: October 25, 2010, 10:56:14 AM »
Yes, Alfred, forget about attending an Orthodox (or Catholic) church.  Explain to us why you think it's perfectly OK not to regularly attend YOUR   OWN   CHURCH.
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Offline Melodist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1317 on: October 25, 2010, 11:35:11 AM »
Just as I thought, you can't interpret the text, your tradition doesn't accomplish what you folks claimed, it did not reveal the apostolic doctrine in this verse.

If you're talking about the verse about women being saved in childbirth, others have already given you the traditional interpretation of it. Salvation isn't simply a legal declaration, but a restoration to a right relationship with God. That means returning to doing what we were originally created to do and reflecting God's love.

If you're talking about the verse about Rachel, I gave you an interpretation, and made a point to keep that interpretation in line with what is taught by the Church.

Quote
If you can't interpret this verse, even though you all are immersed in Orthodox Traditions, then your claim I must be immersed first, so I can understand, was  a lie.

Proving you can interpret God's riddles is definitely an indication whether or not you have the Spirit of God, that is, if you are a member of the Body of Christ:

 11 "There is a man in your kingdom in whom is the Spirit of the Holy God. And in the days of your father, light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, were found in him; and King Nebuchadnezzar your father-- your father the king-- made him chief of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers.
 12 "Inasmuch as an excellent spirit, knowledge, understanding, interpreting dreams, solving riddles, and explaining enigmas were found in this Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar, now let Daniel be called, and he will give the interpretation."
 (Dan 5:11-12 NKJ)

Interpreting "God's riddles" doesn't mean anything without a standard by which to measure your interpretation. My standard is to look back and see how the Holy Spirit inspired and guided others throughout the entirety of Christendom, trust that God doesn't make mistakes, and trust that if people make mistakes in the Church that God will correct those mistakes. My faith is in God never leaving or forsaking His Church, what is your faith in?

Also, the ability to "solve riddles" is not necessarily a measure of one's personal holiness and closeness to God.

And as others have pointed out, Holy Tradition is not an all inclusive exhautive commentary on every single verse in Scripture.

One more thing, as you have stated that you are here for the purpose of converting others to your beliefs, I stand in agreement with others on here that you are the one that has to prove your beliefs. Attacking our beliefs doesn't really accomplish anything, because even if you can prove us wrong on any point (which you have yet to do), it still doesn't prove you right (which you also have yet to do).
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Melodist

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1318 on: October 25, 2010, 11:38:33 AM »
If you can't interpret this verse, even though you all are immersed in Orthodox Traditions, then your claim I must be immersed first, so I can understand, was  a lie.

Proving you can interpret God's riddles is definitely an indication whether or not you have the Spirit of God, that is, if you are a member of the Body of Christ:

 11 "There is a man in your kingdom in whom is the Spirit of the Holy God. And in the days of your father, light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, were found in him; and King Nebuchadnezzar your father-- your father the king-- made him chief of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers.
 12 "Inasmuch as an excellent spirit, knowledge, understanding, interpreting dreams, solving riddles, and explaining enigmas were found in this Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar, now let Daniel be called, and he will give the interpretation."
 (Dan 5:11-12 NKJ)

How do interpret 1Tim 2:4 and Rom 8:28-30 in context with each other?

What is there to stop someone from interpreting the phrase "firstborn of all creation" as meaning that Christ is a created being?

What is there to stop someone form interpreting Col 2:9 in a non-Trinitarian sense?

When did the Holy Spirit stop guiding the Church in its worship, preaching, writings, etc?
If you can't interpret this verse, even though you all are immersed in Orthodox Traditions, then your claim I must be immersed first, so I can understand, was  a lie.

Proving you can interpret God's riddles is definitely an indication whether or not you have the Spirit of God, that is, if you are a member of the Body of Christ:

 11 "There is a man in your kingdom in whom is the Spirit of the Holy God. And in the days of your father, light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, were found in him; and King Nebuchadnezzar your father-- your father the king-- made him chief of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers.
 12 "Inasmuch as an excellent spirit, knowledge, understanding, interpreting dreams, solving riddles, and explaining enigmas were found in this Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar, now let Daniel be called, and he will give the interpretation."
 (Dan 5:11-12 NKJ)
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1319 on: October 25, 2010, 12:32:31 PM »
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, aka Sherlock Holmes


As Euodia, Syntyche, Prisca, Phoebe and Junia were women who taught in the church and had authority over men, this text is not treating their role in the church.

Observe Paul commands men lift up holy hands, "without wrath and doubting."

8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting;

What an odd thing to say, why would Christians feel wrath and doubting? Because their wives had joined a women's libber cult and were carrying on improperly.

Although "men" and "women" are ambiguous terms, this context indicates Paul is speaking to "husbands" and "wives", hence the reference to childbearing which is metonymy standing for the role and duties of a wife in a godly marriage.


In marriage the man is the head of the house, its not proper she be in authority over a man. Paul points to the original marriage Adam and Eve for what is proper.

Evidently husbands were angry, Christ had liberated women, they were now leaders in the church (Euodia, Syntyche, Prisca, Phoebe, Junia, the elect lady) and some were prophets, prophets teach (1 Cor 11:5) and not a few were dressing improperly and upsetting church decorum with their abrasive questions (1 Cor 14:34-36)

Paul commands the men to stop being wrathful and doubting, "if this is what Christianity does to marriage, they can keep it."

Paul commands the women to repent, do what is proper for godly women, be in submission to your husbands.

8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting;
 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing,
 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.
 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:8-15 NKJ)

Many righteous women have died during childbirth, and salvation is by grace alone through faith, not having kids. That leaves this being figurative language, the singular "she" refers to the faithful Christian wife, looking at Eve as the example. She submitted to her husband, saving her marriage, and so also the wives in Ephesus, if THEY continue in faith love and holiness with self control, their marriages will be saved.

The goal was to stop making their husbands angry and doubting the faith. Wives must submit to their husbands:

35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 (1Co 14:35-37 NKJ)

Its shameful these woman's libbers disrupt the church with their questions, they are to keep silent in the church and ask their husbands at home. If any woman's libber wants to argue, recall Paul preached the word of God TO them, not the other way around. If you believe yourself a prophet, then you will agree what Paul says are the commandments of the Lord.

Compare:

NKJ  1 Corinthians 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.
 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.
 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.
 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.
 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.
 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.
 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man.
 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man.
 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.
 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord.
 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
 13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?
 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?
 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.
 16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.
 17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse.
 (1Co 11:1-17 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 12:34:56 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1320 on: October 25, 2010, 01:03:00 PM »
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, aka Sherlock Holmes

“Poor human reason, when it trusts in itself, substitutes the strangest absurdities for the highest divine concepts.” St. John Chrysostom
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1321 on: October 25, 2010, 02:13:54 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"? 

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

This is a new one for ya. Are you now claiming to have all of the powers of the holy spirit? Is that how saint Paul explained it in; :o
1 Corinthians 12
 7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1322 on: October 25, 2010, 02:22:19 PM »
The more posts in this thread, the greater is Alfred's victory via proselytizing ... Think about it....

Responding to Alfred is analogous to attending his Megachurch and explaining the Orthodox faith to thousands like Alfred who are "set in his/her ways" with the hope that one person would listen to the Orthodox Christian viewpoints expressed in this thread.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1323 on: October 25, 2010, 02:56:42 PM »
The more posts in this thread, the greater is Alfred's victory via proselytizing ... Think about it....

Responding to Alfred is analogous to attending his Megachurch and explaining the Orthodox faith to thousands like Alfred who are "set in his/her ways" with the hope that one person would listen to the Orthodox Christian viewpoints expressed in this thread.


Following your analogy, your failure to interpret 1 Tim 2:15 via your Tradition, in contradiction to claims it unveils apostolic doctrine, becomes exponentially greater because mega church is watching, learning en mass just how vacuous your claim for Orthodox tradition is.

Interesting theory, but I doubt any of them are reading this.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1324 on: October 25, 2010, 03:29:35 PM »

Following your analogy, your failure to interpret 1 Tim 2:15 via your Tradition, in contradiction to claims it unveils apostolic doctrine, becomes exponentially greater because mega church is watching, learning en mass just how vacuous your claim for Orthodox tradition is.

Interesting theory, but I doubt any of them are reading this.
Would you want them to do so? Would they see you as their leader and defender?

Alfred, you have said many things in your 700+ posts that are very good. You do have a sincere love for the Holy Scriptures, and you have worked hard to understand them. I recognize that and appreciate it. Unfortunately, your presentation style is argumentative and unloving. Undoubtedly, I, too, have written things here that after due consideration would wish to amend - though I don't intend to sift through all of these messages :).

I wish it were possible for us to have a healthy and profitable discussion, but I know there is nothing I can say that will meet your satisfaction. I will have to leave that to God.

You may be interested in the life of the Saint whose name you bear:
http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/s9centy.htm
Quote
Alfred the Great Oct 26 849-899. King of Wessex and all Orthodox England who defeated the Danish invaders and ensured the growth of the Church in England. A patron of sacred learning, Alfred the Great himself translated into English such works as the Dialogues of St Gregory the Great. His memory is held by many in great veneration as a patriot and model of Orthodox kingship.

Tomorrow I will be remembering both him and you in my prayers.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1325 on: October 25, 2010, 03:36:59 PM »
The more posts in this thread, the greater is Alfred's victory via proselytizing ... Think about it....

Responding to Alfred is analogous to attending his Megachurch and explaining the Orthodox faith to thousands like Alfred who are "set in his/her ways" with the hope that one person would listen to the Orthodox Christian viewpoints expressed in this thread.


Following your analogy, your failure to interpret 1 Tim 2:15 via your Tradition, in contradiction to claims it unveils apostolic doctrine, becomes exponentially greater because mega church is watching, learning en mass just how vacuous your claim for Orthodox tradition is.

Interesting theory, but I doubt any of them are reading this.



I need you to explain this to me slowly because I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

The Orthodox Church is not the Church of Holy Exegesis. You were given the Traditional understanding of that passage earlier. Did you not like it?
Not liking it or thinking it is incomplete is actually fine. It is not a passage central to the faith. You asked, we answered.. Where's the problem?


What has been passed down from the Apostles to their direct successors is the proper understanding of Salvation and how it has been won for us and how we participate in it. That includes how to properly Worship with the hope of conforming to the likeness of Christ and winning Eternal Life.  We got that part right.

The Church you occasionally attend is hardly worth showing up for  if all there to Christianity is memorization of free floating passages. After you have enough passages memorized or can learn your way around the internet to find what you need, I don't
think you need to show up anymore. The only reason is to maybe learn a few more passages or to hear the Pastor give his own personal interpretations. If you know more than he does, then that's clearly a waste of time. Perhaps coffee hour is the big draw.  

 Sitting home alone in your basement, cleaning your guns, memorizing Scripture and arguing with people on the Internet is no way to go through life son.   :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK-Dqj4fHmM
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 03:38:10 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline authio

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1326 on: October 25, 2010, 04:00:35 PM »
Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK-Dqj4fHmM

My whole life I strive for excellence in these three things.  Yet, I am still slim, sober, and competent.  All it took was this discussion to reveal this truth, and make my path straight.  It's like I'm a new man.
Christ is risen!
Cristo ha resucitado!
Христос Воскресе!
Χριστός Ανέστη!
 المسيح قام

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1327 on: October 25, 2010, 05:46:45 PM »
The more posts in this thread, the greater is Alfred's victory via proselytizing ... Think about it....

Responding to Alfred is analogous to attending his Megachurch and explaining the Orthodox faith to thousands like Alfred who are "set in his/her ways" with the hope that one person would listen to the Orthodox Christian viewpoints expressed in this thread.


Following your analogy, your failure to interpret 1 Tim 2:15 via your Tradition, in contradiction to claims it unveils apostolic doctrine, becomes exponentially greater because mega church is watching, learning en mass just how vacuous your claim for Orthodox tradition is.

Interesting theory, but I doubt any of them are reading this.

What I emphasized appears to be rambling on your part because it makes absolutely zero sense.

If I showed up at your Megachurch and started preaching the 1st Chapter of John, your pastors would quickly call the police and demand that I be removed due to trespassing.

I know a thing or two about non-denominational Megachurches ... I've been to this one on one occasion.  I know of others who were baptized at this one.  I even attended a high school graduation at this one.  At the latter one, she proclaimed herself an Apostle and the Church's website boasts of this Apostle's accomplishments.  Their two children now run the ministry which was started by their parents; however, in Orthodox Christian Churches, Bishops cannot marry and have children due to the inherent corruption of a Bishop's see becoming a hereditary title.

May God rest the souls of the late founder of the Jericho City of Praise and her husband and forgive their sins.


Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1328 on: October 25, 2010, 06:13:49 PM »

Following your analogy, your failure to interpret 1 Tim 2:15 via your Tradition, in contradiction to claims it unveils apostolic doctrine, becomes exponentially greater because mega church is watching, learning en mass just how vacuous your claim for Orthodox tradition is.

Interesting theory, but I doubt any of them are reading this.
Would you want them to do so? Would they see you as their leader and defender?

Alfred, you have said many things in your 700+ posts that are very good. You do have a sincere love for the Holy Scriptures, and you have worked hard to understand them. I recognize that and appreciate it. Unfortunately, your presentation style is argumentative and unloving. Undoubtedly, I, too, have written things here that after due consideration would wish to amend - though I don't intend to sift through all of these messages :).

I wish it were possible for us to have a healthy and profitable discussion, but I know there is nothing I can say that will meet your satisfaction. I will have to leave that to God.

You may be interested in the life of the Saint whose name you bear:
http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/s9centy.htm
Quote
Alfred the Great Oct 26 849-899. King of Wessex and all Orthodox England who defeated the Danish invaders and ensured the growth of the Church in England. A patron of sacred learning, Alfred the Great himself translated into English such works as the Dialogues of St Gregory the Great. His memory is held by many in great veneration as a patriot and model of Orthodox kingship.

Tomorrow I will be remembering both him and you in my prayers.


You recommended Orthodox tradition saying as I became immersed, I would understand. In essence, you promise the blind will see.

BUT when I ask those who have been immersed in Orthodox tradition, who presumably now see, to interpret an obscure verse, they cannot.

Therefore, it seems to me sola scriptura is by far the superior methodology to understand scripture, recall it is written:
 
And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)

As these obscure scriptures remain dark even after one has been immersed in Orthodox tradition, I fail to see how Orthodox Tradition is superior to sola scriptura, especially when, using sound principles of interpretation with critical thinking, sound deductive logic, sola scriptura can interpret the same verse your tradition cannot.

In fact, that often appears to be precisely what the Fathers are tying to do when they interpret scripture.

This is an overwhelming mass of irrefutable evidence sola scriptura is the correct way to God's truth, and your reliance upon Orthodox tradition is not.



Psa 25:14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.  

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.  



Especially as Scripture says following traditions of men is precisely why the scriptures become unclear:

13 Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
 14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden."
 (Isa 29:13-14 NKJ)

Why would I want to immerse myself in Orthodox tradition only to have the following happen to me:

Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.  
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.  
Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.  
Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.  
Jer 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:  
Mat 13:14-17 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:  
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.  
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:  
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.  
Rom 11:7-10 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded  


« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 06:24:31 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1329 on: October 25, 2010, 06:17:36 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

Alfred, please answer my question.

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1330 on: October 25, 2010, 06:26:56 PM »
You recommended Orthodox tradition saying as I became immersed, I would understand. In essence, you promise the blind will see.

BUT when I ask those who have been immersed in Orthodox tradition, who presumably now see, to interpret an obscure verse, they cannot.

Cannot, or will not?

If you are not capable of receiving the tradition because of your self-imposed blindness, why would our explaining it do you any good? Come and see the tradition for yourself. It's much more efficient to receive the tradition directly than to have us explain something you don't have a foundation to understand.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 06:29:27 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1331 on: October 25, 2010, 06:27:16 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

Alfred, please answer my question.

Already did, you don't like the answer. I haven't forsaken it, I still attend.

Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 06:27:46 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1332 on: October 25, 2010, 06:30:29 PM »
You recommended Orthodox tradition saying as I became immersed, I would understand. In essence, you promise the blind will see.

BUT when I ask those who have been immersed in Orthodox tradition, who presumably now see, to interpret an obscure verse, they cannot.

Cannot, or will not?

If you are not capable of receiving the tradition because of your self-imposed blindness, why would our explaining it do you any good? Come and see it for yourself.


Yes, lets remove me from the equation, that should make it easy for you to prove Orthodox tradition is far superior to sola scriptura.

Pick a text sola scripturaists seem unable to answer...and that your Orthodox tradition cleared up quite nicely.

Then you prove your tradition superior to sola scriptura.

AND you can't blame me for your failure.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1333 on: October 25, 2010, 06:32:51 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

Alfred, please answer my question.

Already did, you don't like the answer. I haven't forsaken it, I still attend.

Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)

Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I see, you rarely attend, but you still attend, is that it?  When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  

What question would you like me to answer?  

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1334 on: October 25, 2010, 06:37:49 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

Alfred, please answer my question.

Already did, you don't like the answer. I haven't forsaken it, I still attend.

Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)

Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I see, you rarely attend, but you still attend, is that it?  When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  

What question would you like me to answer?  

How is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1335 on: October 25, 2010, 06:40:02 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

Alfred, please answer my question.

Already did, you don't like the answer. I haven't forsaken it, I still attend.

Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)

Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I see, you rarely attend, but you still attend, is that it?  When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  

What question would you like me to answer?  

How is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

Are the scriptures dark to me?  Have I have claimed to be "one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?"  I think you will have a difficult time finding that in one of my posts.

Your turn: When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday? 

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1336 on: October 25, 2010, 06:41:00 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

Alfred, please answer my question.

Already did, you don't like the answer. I haven't forsaken it, I still attend.

Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)

Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I see, you rarely attend, but you still attend, is that it?  When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  

What question would you like me to answer?  

How is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

Are the scriptures dark to me?  Have I have claimed to be "one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?"  I think you will have a difficult time finding that in one of my posts.

Your turn: When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  


Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 06:42:58 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1337 on: October 25, 2010, 06:49:47 PM »
You recommended Orthodox tradition saying as I became immersed, I would understand. In essence, you promise the blind will see.

BUT when I ask those who have been immersed in Orthodox tradition, who presumably now see, to interpret an obscure verse, they cannot.

Cannot, or will not?

If you are not capable of receiving the tradition because of your self-imposed blindness, why would our explaining it do you any good? Come and see it for yourself.


Yes, lets remove me from the equation, that should make it easy for you to prove Orthodox tradition is far superior to sola scriptura.

Pick a text sola scripturaists seem unable to answer...and that your Orthodox tradition cleared up quite nicely.

Then you prove your tradition superior to sola scriptura.

AND you can't blame me for your failure.


Words could never describe something that needs to be seen. Would you marry a woman based on a written description alone? I don't think so.  ;)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1338 on: October 25, 2010, 06:53:18 PM »
You recommended Orthodox tradition saying as I became immersed, I would understand. In essence, you promise the blind will see.

BUT when I ask those who have been immersed in Orthodox tradition, who presumably now see, to interpret an obscure verse, they cannot.

Cannot, or will not?

If you are not capable of receiving the tradition because of your self-imposed blindness, why would our explaining it do you any good? Come and see it for yourself.


Yes, lets remove me from the equation, that should make it easy for you to prove Orthodox tradition is far superior to sola scriptura.

Pick a text sola scripturaists seem unable to answer...and that your Orthodox tradition cleared up quite nicely.

Then you prove your tradition superior to sola scriptura.

AND you can't blame me for your failure.


Words could never describe something that needs to be seen. Would you marry a woman based on a written description alone? I don't think so.  ;)

People do every day.

And your analogy is irrelevant to the point.

If Orthodox Tradition complements Scripture as the Orthodox claim, it will render the dark visible.

Sola scriptura, via sound hermeneutics and logic, does precisely that.

Therefore, Orthodox Tradition either bests sola scripture at making the dark visible, or it is inferior to it as a methodology to learn God's Word.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 06:55:30 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1339 on: October 25, 2010, 07:00:51 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

Alfred, please answer my question.

Already did, you don't like the answer. I haven't forsaken it, I still attend.

Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)

Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I see, you rarely attend, but you still attend, is that it?  When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  

What question would you like me to answer?  

How is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

Are the scriptures dark to me?  Have I have claimed to be "one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?"  I think you will have a difficult time finding that in one of my posts.

Your turn: When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  


Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I did answer your question, Alfred, but maybe I misunderstood you. How is it that you think the scriptures are dark to me?  Where in this thread or any other did I ever claim to be one of those to whom "it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God"?

Alfred, when was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  Please answer my questions, which are considerably more straightforward than yours.  Please do not allow me to draw my own conclusions about you, which I will have to do without your answers.

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1340 on: October 25, 2010, 07:02:39 PM »
Alfred, you have said many things in your 700+ posts that are very good. You do have a sincere love for the Holy Scriptures, and you have worked hard to understand them. I recognize that and appreciate it. Unfortunately, your presentation style is argumentative and unloving. Undoubtedly, I, too, have written things here that after due consideration would wish to amend - though I don't intend to sift through all of these messages :).

I wish it were possible for us to have a healthy and profitable discussion, but I know there is nothing I can say that will meet your satisfaction. I will have to leave that to God.

You may be interested in the life of the Saint whose name you bear:
http://www.orthodoxengland.org.uk/s9centy.htm
Quote
Alfred the Great Oct 26 849-899. King of Wessex and all Orthodox England who defeated the Danish invaders and ensured the growth of the Church in England. A patron of sacred learning, Alfred the Great himself translated into English such works as the Dialogues of St Gregory the Great. His memory is held by many in great veneration as a patriot and model of Orthodox kingship.

Tomorrow I will be remembering both him and you in my prayers.


You recommended Orthodox tradition saying as I became immersed, I would understand. In essence, you promise the blind will see.

-- big snip --

Rom 11:7-10 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded  



I'm really not sure what your lengthy message here has to do with my point, but thank you for at least noticing my message. I'll probably mention it again in the morning, but I do wish you a happy name day. Many years, Alfred!

As you may know, for the Orthodox, the liturgical day begins at sundown. Must be another one of our man-made traditions  ;).

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1341 on: October 25, 2010, 07:05:34 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

Alfred, please answer my question.

Already did, you don't like the answer. I haven't forsaken it, I still attend.

Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)

Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I see, you rarely attend, but you still attend, is that it?  When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  

What question would you like me to answer?  

How is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

Are the scriptures dark to me?  Have I have claimed to be "one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?"  I think you will have a difficult time finding that in one of my posts.

Your turn: When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  


Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I did answer your question, Alfred, but maybe I misunderstood you. How is it that you think the scriptures are dark to me?  Where in this thread or any other did I ever claim to be one of those to whom "it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God"?

Alfred, when was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  Please answer my questions, which are considerably more straightforward than yours.  Please do not allow me to draw my own conclusions about you, which I will have to do without your answers.



Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God (1Co 2:12 NKJ)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1342 on: October 25, 2010, 07:14:40 PM »
You recommended Orthodox tradition saying as I became immersed, I would understand. In essence, you promise the blind will see.

BUT when I ask those who have been immersed in Orthodox tradition, who presumably now see, to interpret an obscure verse, they cannot.

Cannot, or will not?

If you are not capable of receiving the tradition because of your self-imposed blindness, why would our explaining it do you any good? Come and see it for yourself.


Yes, lets remove me from the equation, that should make it easy for you to prove Orthodox tradition is far superior to sola scriptura.

Pick a text sola scripturaists seem unable to answer...and that your Orthodox tradition cleared up quite nicely.

Then you prove your tradition superior to sola scriptura.

AND you can't blame me for your failure.



Why would I be inclined to do such a thing? We don't treat the Bible like some sort of reference manual. That is not how Orthodox use the Bible. As you may have noticed by now, we're not really into systematic theology, at least not in the way that Western Christians are into it.

Which is why we have said from the start: your premises are all wrong. We are talking past each other because the Church approaches scripture a completely different way from you. You aren't getting the answers you want because you aren't asking the right questions.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 07:16:50 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1343 on: October 25, 2010, 07:17:36 PM »
You recommended Orthodox tradition saying as I became immersed, I would understand. In essence, you promise the blind will see.

BUT when I ask those who have been immersed in Orthodox tradition, who presumably now see, to interpret an obscure verse, they cannot.

Cannot, or will not?

If you are not capable of receiving the tradition because of your self-imposed blindness, why would our explaining it do you any good? Come and see it for yourself.


Yes, lets remove me from the equation, that should make it easy for you to prove Orthodox tradition is far superior to sola scriptura.

Pick a text sola scripturaists seem unable to answer...and that your Orthodox tradition cleared up quite nicely.

Then you prove your tradition superior to sola scriptura.

AND you can't blame me for your failure.



Why would I be inclined to do such a thing? We don't treat the Bible like some sort of reference manual. That is not how Orthodox use the Bible. As you may have noticed by now, we're not really into systematic theology, at least not in the way that Western Christians are into it.

Which is why we have said from the start: your premises are all wrong. We are talking past each other because the Church approaches scripture a completely different way from you. You aren't getting the answers you want because you aren't asking the right questions.

?? Your approach leaves you confused about the teaching in scripture, and you are OK with that?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1344 on: October 25, 2010, 07:25:57 PM »
You recommended Orthodox tradition saying as I became immersed, I would understand. In essence, you promise the blind will see.

BUT when I ask those who have been immersed in Orthodox tradition, who presumably now see, to interpret an obscure verse, they cannot.

Cannot, or will not?

If you are not capable of receiving the tradition because of your self-imposed blindness, why would our explaining it do you any good? Come and see it for yourself.


Yes, lets remove me from the equation, that should make it easy for you to prove Orthodox tradition is far superior to sola scriptura.

Pick a text sola scripturaists seem unable to answer...and that your Orthodox tradition cleared up quite nicely.

Then you prove your tradition superior to sola scriptura.

AND you can't blame me for your failure.



Why would I be inclined to do such a thing? We don't treat the Bible like some sort of reference manual. That is not how Orthodox use the Bible. As you may have noticed by now, we're not really into systematic theology, at least not in the way that Western Christians are into it.

Which is why we have said from the start: your premises are all wrong. We are talking past each other because the Church approaches scripture a completely different way from you. You aren't getting the answers you want because you aren't asking the right questions.

?? Your approach leaves you confused about the teaching in scripture, and you are OK with that?

No, not confused, just not an expert or knowledgable about everything. I don't put my faith in my personal interpretation of the Bible, that's for sure. Heaven help me if I should depend on my own wisdom.

My faith is in Christ, His Church, and the Holy Spirit who guides it. I don't have any particular need to understand every jot and tiddle of the Scriptures. Those whom God has established to teach, they will teach. It is my job in my present station in life to listen and learn, so I listen and learn. In the Church, it is not every man for himself, so we don't have to run ourselves ragged trying to become a jack of all trades and eke out the meaning of every passage.

We can't possibly understand it all ourselves anyway (to think otherwise is the height of arrogance). It is better to not try, rather to have faith in Christ. Being a good academic will not save us.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 07:27:51 PM by bogdan »

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1345 on: October 25, 2010, 07:28:52 PM »
You recommended Orthodox tradition saying as I became immersed, I would understand. In essence, you promise the blind will see.

BUT when I ask those who have been immersed in Orthodox tradition, who presumably now see, to interpret an obscure verse, they cannot.

Cannot, or will not?

If you are not capable of receiving the tradition because of your self-imposed blindness, why would our explaining it do you any good? Come and see it for yourself.


Yes, lets remove me from the equation, that should make it easy for you to prove Orthodox tradition is far superior to sola scriptura.

Pick a text sola scripturaists seem unable to answer...and that your Orthodox tradition cleared up quite nicely.

Then you prove your tradition superior to sola scriptura.

AND you can't blame me for your failure.


Words could never describe something that needs to be seen. Would you marry a woman based on a written description alone? I don't think so.  ;)

People do every day.

And your analogy is irrelevant to the point.

If Orthodox Tradition complements Scripture as the Orthodox claim, it will render the dark visible.

Sola scriptura, via sound hermeneutics and logic, does precisely that.

Therefore, Orthodox Tradition either bests sola scripture at making the dark visible, or it is inferior to it as a methodology to learn God's Word.
I didn't ask you about what people would do. I ask you what you would do. I doubt you would marry based on a description alone and that is exactly the point. You yourself have clearly stated that you need hermeneutics and logic along with sola scriptura. Rendering the sola from scriptura :laugh:. Hermeneutics is nothing more than your philosophical view imposed on the words. Your tradition.

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1346 on: October 25, 2010, 07:29:46 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

Alfred, please answer my question.

Already did, you don't like the answer. I haven't forsaken it, I still attend.

Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)

Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I see, you rarely attend, but you still attend, is that it?  When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  

What question would you like me to answer?  

How is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

Are the scriptures dark to me?  Have I have claimed to be "one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?"  I think you will have a difficult time finding that in one of my posts.

Your turn: When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  


Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I did answer your question, Alfred, but maybe I misunderstood you. How is it that you think the scriptures are dark to me?  Where in this thread or any other did I ever claim to be one of those to whom "it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God"?

Alfred, when was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  Please answer my questions, which are considerably more straightforward than yours.  Please do not allow me to draw my own conclusions about you, which I will have to do without your answers.



Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God (1Co 2:12 NKJ)

I will freely admit that do not know all things.  (You may draw whatever conclusions you like from that.)  For instance, I do not know when you last attended church. 

Prove to me that "you know all things" (1 John 2:20) by telling me when was the last time you attended church.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1347 on: October 25, 2010, 07:37:01 PM »
You recommended Orthodox tradition saying as I became immersed, I would understand. In essence, you promise the blind will see.

BUT when I ask those who have been immersed in Orthodox tradition, who presumably now see, to interpret an obscure verse, they cannot.

Cannot, or will not?

If you are not capable of receiving the tradition because of your self-imposed blindness, why would our explaining it do you any good? Come and see it for yourself.


Yes, lets remove me from the equation, that should make it easy for you to prove Orthodox tradition is far superior to sola scriptura.

Pick a text sola scripturaists seem unable to answer...and that your Orthodox tradition cleared up quite nicely.

Then you prove your tradition superior to sola scriptura.

AND you can't blame me for your failure.



Why would I be inclined to do such a thing? We don't treat the Bible like some sort of reference manual. That is not how Orthodox use the Bible. As you may have noticed by now, we're not really into systematic theology, at least not in the way that Western Christians are into it.

Which is why we have said from the start: your premises are all wrong. We are talking past each other because the Church approaches scripture a completely different way from you. You aren't getting the answers you want because you aren't asking the right questions.

?? Your approach leaves you confused about the teaching in scripture, and you are OK with that?

No, not confused, just not an expert or knowledgable about everything. I don't put my faith in my personal interpretation of the Bible, that's for sure. Heaven help me if I should depend on my own wisdom.

My faith is in Christ, His Church, and the Holy Spirit who guides it. I don't have any particular need to understand every jot and tiddle of the Scriptures. Those whom God has established to teach, they will teach. It is my job in my present station in life to listen and learn, so I listen and learn. In the Church, it is not every man for himself, so we don't have to run ourselves ragged trying to become a jack of all trades and eke out the meaning of every passage.

We can't possibly understand it all ourselves anyway (to think otherwise is the height of arrogance). It is better to not try, rather to have faith in Christ. Being a good academic will not save us.

Fair enough. BUT as we both are here for apologetic purposes...I wonder at your reluctance.

Lets reverse it. If you asked me to prove sola scriptura superior method for learning scripture, to following tradition, I will gladly produce examples where Orthodox tradition failed to clarify a text, perhaps citing the confusion on it among the fathers and Orthodox, AND where sola scriptura, using sound principles of hermeneutics, interpreted the text according to its grammar and syntax.

THAT would prove which method is better for learning God's truth. God's Word is Truth:

"Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. (Joh 17:17 NKJ)

It is via correct understanding of God's Word, that we are sanctified, that is, separated from what is impure.

God speaks to me via the scripture, uncovering secret sins, errors in thought:

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
 (Heb 4:12-13 KJV)

If I can't understand the Scripture, that ceases.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1348 on: October 25, 2010, 07:40:30 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

Alfred, please answer my question.

Already did, you don't like the answer. I haven't forsaken it, I still attend.

Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)

Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I see, you rarely attend, but you still attend, is that it?  When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  

What question would you like me to answer?  

How is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

Are the scriptures dark to me?  Have I have claimed to be "one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?"  I think you will have a difficult time finding that in one of my posts.

Your turn: When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  


Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I did answer your question, Alfred, but maybe I misunderstood you. How is it that you think the scriptures are dark to me?  Where in this thread or any other did I ever claim to be one of those to whom "it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God"?

Alfred, when was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  Please answer my questions, which are considerably more straightforward than yours.  Please do not allow me to draw my own conclusions about you, which I will have to do without your answers.



Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God (1Co 2:12 NKJ)

I will freely admit that do not know all things.  (You may draw whatever conclusions you like from that.)  For instance, I do not know when you last attended church. 

Prove to me that "you know all things" (1 John 2:20) by telling me when was the last time you attended church.

You still aren't answering HOW (or WHY) you don't know these things from God given to His children to know, by His Spirit:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

How is it YOU don't know these things freely given to us by God?
 (1Co 2:12 NKJ)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1349 on: October 25, 2010, 07:44:18 PM »
Alfred, I was going to drop this, but there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand. An answer may help me understand the way you interpret the Bible.


I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.

It is written:

not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching (Heb 10:25 NKJ)

So I have not forsaken it by any means.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.

You claim regular faithful church attendance is our standard, but it appears to be a pretty straightforward reading of the text. You say that you rarely go to church, and that when you do, it is only when you feel like it, when it is convenient. That sounds to me like "the manner of some," since there are many who say they are Christians but who attend church rarely, when it is convenient to them.

So how do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

I haven't, and you haven't supported your claims Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable. I was told regular attendance at an Orthodox church, immersion in the tradition, would unveil apostolic doctrine.

But when I ask you interpret this verse, prove your claims, you fail to unveil the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:15 NKJ)

Being you are a regular church goer, this should have been no problem for you.

Why is it a problem, doesn't Orthodox tradition make apostolic doctrine knowable, as you and others claim?

I never said "Orthodox tradition makes apostolic doctrine knowable."  You must have me confused with another member here.

I am not following the discussion you are having with others about 1 Tim. 2:15.  It does not interest me as much as your interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:15 Heb 10:25 (Edit: Oops!).  Alfred, simply saying that you haven't forsaken assembling together does not make it so, especially when you admitted in the same virtual breath that you have forsaken it.

How do you figure that you "have not forsaken it by any means"?  

Alfred, please answer my question.

Already did, you don't like the answer. I haven't forsaken it, I still attend.

Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)

Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I see, you rarely attend, but you still attend, is that it?  When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  

What question would you like me to answer?  

How is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

Are the scriptures dark to me?  Have I have claimed to be "one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?"  I think you will have a difficult time finding that in one of my posts.

Your turn: When was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  


Now you answer my question, how is it the scriptures are dark to you?

And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' (Luk 8:10 NKJ)


Aren't you one of those it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?

I did answer your question, Alfred, but maybe I misunderstood you. How is it that you think the scriptures are dark to me?  Where in this thread or any other did I ever claim to be one of those to whom "it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God"?

Alfred, when was the last time you attended church?  Did you attend on Sunday?  Please answer my questions, which are considerably more straightforward than yours.  Please do not allow me to draw my own conclusions about you, which I will have to do without your answers.



Not so fast, you didn't answer. HOW is it you don't know? Don't you have the Holy Spirit? How is it you don't know?

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
 (1Jo 2:20 NKJ)

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God (1Co 2:12 NKJ)

I will freely admit that do not know all things.  (You may draw whatever conclusions you like from that.)  For instance, I do not know when you last attended church. 

Prove to me that "you know all things" (1 John 2:20) by telling me when was the last time you attended church.

You still aren't answering HOW (or WHY) you don't know these things from God given to His children to know, by His Spirit:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

How is it YOU don't know these things freely given to us by God?
 (1Co 2:12 NKJ)

Well, since I have already admitted that I do not know all things, maybe I do not know the answer to your question.

But I am sure that you think that you do know all things, such as the date of your most recent church attendance.  Or maybe you do not know all things, after all.  If not, what does that say about you?