Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 198220 times)

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1260 on: October 24, 2010, 01:58:26 PM »
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Mat 7:12 KJV)

In keeping with that, as I want all to speak truth of God to me, I must object to the idea this text is relevant to cigarette smoking:

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1Co 3:17 NKJ)

 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their own craftiness";
 (1Co 3:10-19 NKJ)

The context clearly shows Paul refers to false teaching, THAT is what defiles, the "wisdom" of this age that is not according to Christ. Paul is repeating what Christ said about this:

 16 So Jesus said, "Are you also still without understanding?
 17 "Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated?
 18 "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.
 19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.
 20 "These are the things which defile a man,
 (Mat 15:16-20 NKJ)

So I disagree with those Christians who would suggest cigarette smoking is defiling the temple of God.

It does not follow smoking is a good habit. I gave it up years ago, glad I did.





Glad we agree on cigarette smoking, but can we please discuss pipe smoking? Or are you going to remain ignorant of what I said - like you remain ignorant of what God said - to further you poor arguments?


You show the same "its not really smoking" reasoning the pharisees and scribes were famous for...its not really the gold of the temple  they swear by....

16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say,`Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.' (Mat 23:16 NKJ)

Smoking is smoking, but its your personal choice. I don't condemn you for it, in fact, I could care less. Its your choice.

Those folks who point to the poison in smoking, as though that defiles the temple of God our body, have a real problem...the air we breathe does the same, as well as the food we eat and the water we drink, it all contains poisons.

BUT more important, our final authority, our supreme authority, Christ, said what goes into the mouth does not defile...that ends the discussion for me.


AND you should revisit the post of mine you quoted here, I gave you a tip on how to easily quit smoking...it actually is easy, if you don't use will power.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 02:03:31 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1261 on: October 24, 2010, 02:02:34 PM »
Quote
"Concerning the charge of idolatry: Icons are not idols but symbols, therefore when an Orthodox venerates an icon, he is not guilty of idolatry. He is not worshipping the symbol, but merely venerating it. Such veneration is not directed toward wood, or paint or stone, but towards the person depicted. Therefore relative honor is shown to material objects, but worship is due to God alone.

We do not make obeisance to the nature of wood, but we revere and do obeisance to Him who was crucified on the Cross... When the two beams of the Cross are joined together I adore the figure because of Christ who was crucified on the Cross, but if the beams are separated, I throw them away and burn them."

"I do not worship matter, but the Creator of matter, who for my sake became material and deigned to dwell in matter, who through matter effected my salvation."
 —St. John of Damascus

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Seventh_Ecumenical_Council


Quote
Proof of the lawfulness of the veneration of icons was drawn from Exodus 25:19 sqq.; Numbers 7:89; Hebrews 9:5 sqq.; Ezekiel 41:18, and Genesis 31:34, but especially from a series of passages of the Church Fathers; the authority of the latter was decisive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Council_of_Nicaea
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 02:05:53 PM by biro »
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Offline dcommini

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1262 on: October 24, 2010, 02:04:17 PM »
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Mat 7:12 KJV)

In keeping with that, as I want all to speak truth of God to me, I must object to the idea this text is relevant to cigarette smoking:

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (1Co 3:17 NKJ)

 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their own craftiness";
 (1Co 3:10-19 NKJ)

The context clearly shows Paul refers to false teaching, THAT is what defiles, the "wisdom" of this age that is not according to Christ. Paul is repeating what Christ said about this:

 16 So Jesus said, "Are you also still without understanding?
 17 "Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated?
 18 "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.
 19 "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.
 20 "These are the things which defile a man,
 (Mat 15:16-20 NKJ)

So I disagree with those Christians who would suggest cigarette smoking is defiling the temple of God.

It does not follow smoking is a good habit. I gave it up years ago, glad I did.





Glad we agree on cigarette smoking, but can we please discuss pipe smoking? Or are you going to remain ignorant of what I said - like you remain ignorant of what God said - to further you poor arguments?


You show the same "its not really smoking" reasoning the pharisees and scribes were famous for...its not really the gold of the temple  they swear by....

16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say,`Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.' (Mat 23:16 NKJ)

Smoking is smoking, but its your personal choice. I don't condemn you for it, in fact, I could care less. Its your choice.

Those folks who point to the poison in smoking, as though that defiles the temple of God our body, have a real problem...the air we breathe does the same, as well as the food we eat and the water we drink, it all contains poisons.

BUT more important, our final authority, our supreme authority, Christ, said what goes into the mouth does not defile...that ends the discussion for me.



Glad we could clear that up, however I never even alluded to pipe smoking not being smoking; it is, that is why it is called smoking. I did allude to the fact that pipe smoking does not necessarily cause cancer or other harmful side effects.

This goes to show that you read into a lot of what was never written. If your reading comprehension of regular posts is this bad, how then can we trust your reading comprehension of Scripture? We can not.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1263 on: October 24, 2010, 02:10:44 PM »
"Concerning the charge of idolatry: Icons are not idols but symbols, therefore when an Orthodox venerates an icon, he is not guilty of idolatry. He is not worshipping the symbol, but merely venerating it. Such veneration is not directed toward wood, or paint or stone, but towards the person depicted. Therefore relative honor is shown to material objects, but worship is due to God alone.

We do not make obeisance to the nature of wood, but we revere and do obeisance to Him who was crucified on the Cross... When the two beams of the Cross are joined together I adore the figure because of Christ who was crucified on the Cross, but if the beams are separated, I throw them away and burn them."

"I do not worship matter, but the Creator of matter, who for my sake became material and deigned to dwell in matter, who through matter effected my salvation."
 —St. John of Damascus

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Seventh_Ecumenical_Council


Proof of the lawfulness of the veneration of icons was drawn from Exodus 25:19 sqq.; Numbers 7:89; Hebrews 9:5 sqq.; Ezekiel 41:18, and Genesis 31:34, but especially from a series of passages of the Church Fathers; the authority of the latter was decisive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Council_of_Nicaea

Icons are images also, and the text condemns the making of any kind of ICON of God.

As Jesus is God,  the prohibition applies to Him also:

LXT  Deuteronomy 4:16 μὴ ἀνομήσητε καὶ ποιήσητε ὑμῖν ἑαυτοῖς γλυπτὸν ὁμοίωμα πᾶσαν εἰκόνα ὁμοίωμα ἀρσενικοῦ ἢ θηλυκοῦ
 (Deu 4:16 LXT)

Nothing in the context implies the use of these images (whether for honor or worship) is relevant to this prohibition.

The text forbids making them, because they will become a snare for your soul, you will bow down and kiss the images, and that God hates.

The prohibition is NOT based on use, its a warning images will lead to idolatry, therefore the ban is for our sake,  every image possible for us to make of God, is forbidden, period.

 15 "Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
 16 "lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female,
 17 "the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air,
 18 "the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth.
 19 "And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the LORD your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage.
 (Deu 4:15-19 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 02:12:40 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1264 on: October 24, 2010, 03:47:05 PM »
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.

THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.

NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis-à-vis' any expositor in Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, that reply is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent, an evasion of the math proposed.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

Compare:

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
 (1Co 5:5 NKJ)


AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, and disagree with me, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 showing how it doesn't teach what I propose, and give another interpretation of the text I could discuss. ONLY AFTER you argue from it, another interpretation, you might cite other relevant texts in support of your interpretation and against mine.

You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.


Unfortunately, you don't get to set the rules of this game. If you're going to convince us of anything, you have to play by our rules.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1265 on: October 24, 2010, 03:51:01 PM »

Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.

Do we not? Is it not our duty, as Christians (especially as Orthodox Christians) to lead any stray sheep back into God's fold? Granted, Alfred has come into our forum claiming the want (need?) to proselytize and I do agree that it is he who should be convincing us of his POV, but should we not also try to convince him of our POV since I believe that Alfred is here as a cry of help to us. I think he is trying his best to dissuade himself of the Orthodox Church and I don't think it is working very well on his part. His clinging to his his view of Sola Scriptura (for it is indeed his view as I know plenty of other Protestants who ascribe to different views of SS) because it is his security blanket, if he were to let go and drop his security blanket he is afraid that he would be swept into this different world that is so out of his comfort level. Unfortunately, many Protestants fall prey to this same thing, they try so hard to break out of their comfort levels by doing different things such as food mission work, but when it comes to experiencing God in a different church they draw the line and refuse to break past this part of their comfort claiming that they do not want to fall prey to heresy not realizing that if they just let go of their security blankets and Fully Rely On God (to use a Protestant gimmick) that they would be opened up to whole, new, amazing, and fulfilling world where God is always present in our daily lives.  
Honestly, though, I've never heard of anyone who was argued into the Orthodox Faith. If you feel the need to try it, go right on ahead, but I fear that you may only be feeding Alfred's need to argue with us.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1266 on: October 24, 2010, 03:59:44 PM »

Now speaking to Alfred: Alfred, the question of how frequently you go to church and your motivation for going to church infrequently, if you do, are important to this discussion. If you go infrequently out of honorable reasons, such as distance from church or bad health, then your infrequent church attendance gives us no reason to condemn your arguments as the arguments of a hypocrite. But if you go to church infrequently out of laziness, then the charge of hypocrisy is indeed a legitimate judgment that makes your ranting on this board truly lacking in any authority.

I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.
Now that you've admitted this, if bogdan, tuesdayschild, et al., want to continue to press you on your apparent hypocrisy, then I'm not going to challenge them, since they are now totally justified to do so. Such ad hominem would be appropriate, since in our eyes your adherence or lack thereof to the exhortation of Hebrews 10:25 is central to your authority to teach us.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.
But if you wish to convince us, our standards are indeed very important. If you don't meet them, I'm not sure you have any authority in our eyes to lecture us. We don't grant you the authority to preach, "Do as I say, not as I do."

I grant I should attend more, its a great church, I only hurt myself not going.

But of much greater concern is bowing down before an image, and kissing it, as though God is pleased with such acts.

Your distinction between honor and worship is irrelevant, as is the argument a two dimensional image doesn't violate Deut 4:12ff----BUT The text rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.

Moreover it specifically rules out icons of God in the form of a man, and as Jesus is God and man, you are most definitely in violation.

The  "fine distinctions" you suppose allow you to violate the spirit of God's prohibition, but not its letter, are precisely the kind of reasoning condemned by Christ here:


 16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say,`Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
 17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
 18 "And,`Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
 19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
 20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
 21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
 22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
 (Mat 23:16-22 NKJ)

I never said I wouldn't end up in the Kingdom, in the "nose bleed" section of the arena, when the awards are given out.

But unless you repent of your idolatry, you won't even be in the stadium.

But you are re-hashing a settled issue. Today is the day we remember the Fathers of the 7th Ecumenical Council ( coincidentally) where the issue was closed once and for all. A private opinion like yours is simply and act of pride and misunderstanding at this late date.

The Christian Church has a mechanism for figuring out issues like veneration of icons. As you will recall from history, Iconoclasm enjoyed some support and caused much division and even violence. The Church didn't merely quash one side in favor of the other, it came together in Council. One Bishop, one vote. It sifted through every passage for and (seemingly) against. The Iconoclasts had full voice and put forward the exact same position you take fully and completely and without hindrance.  

At the end of the day, Iconoclasm did not hold up under the most rigorous scrutiny, by the most learned men, who were grafted onto the body of Christ thereby guided by the Holy Spirit.  Now, only people separated from the grace of God, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit cut off and adrift are left to to still take cheap shots based on  confused personal opinions.

Authentic Christianity is not a big pile of personal opinions. It is an organized religion with mechanisms to deal with important theological questions and with the full promise of the participation of God, as scripture makes clear.

Brother, you need to drop it revisit the subject and pray fervently for a fuller understanding.  
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 04:01:29 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1267 on: October 24, 2010, 06:18:13 PM »
I have documented from the Talmud

Again with the Talmud. You cite third-sixth century Jewish texts as authoritative, even while you reject the Fathers of the first and second centuries. As the Synodikon says, you don't know the difference between the Law and Grace, as evinced by your beating the dead horse of Deuteronomy 4:16.

Of course you neatly gloss over my and others' posts on the subject, instead attempting to obfuscate the issue once again with red herrings (i.e., the issue of smoking).

Quote from: Alfred Persson
You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.
We don't give a hoot what your interpretation of scripture says. But you have yet to demonstrate scriptural interpretation is the sole basis of theology, so why would it matter anyway?

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1268 on: October 24, 2010, 09:36:39 PM »
Of course I have no authority, never claimed any.

THIS (the following) IS a claim of authority:
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."
You claim that you alone interpret the Scriptures correctly, that no one person, no one church, not even all of Christendom does. And your presence on this thread is one big claim of authority, lest you wouldn't even be here.


I only speak the words of God in scripture. Its He who has the authority, Its His Word you are rejecting.
No, it is those passages from Scripture you have cherry picked to prove your unique interpretations of Scripture that you present here. We can read the Bible for ourselves to see what it says, and we have the Church to guide us. We don't need you and your efforts to upset the apple cart.

If you rejected my interpretation, appealing to the grammar and syntax, I would congratulate you on your obedience to the Word of God.
We reject your interpretation in part because you present yourself here as an arrogant blowhard. Such arrogance is not becoming one who truly possesses the Holy Spirit and the authority to teach.

But you don't care what the word of God says. To every quote of scripture, your reply is nothing more than ad hominem evasion. Your actions prove you don't care what God's Word the Bible, says.
Remember that we have no burden to prove anything to you. It is you who must convince us, and if your prooftexting from Scripture is enough by itself to show how foolish your interpretations are, what need is there to counter with Scriptural prooftexts of our own? We have nothing we need to prove to you.

NOT a claim to authority, its a claim to have proposed a unique interpretation of those precise areas, vis-à-vis' any expositor in Christendom today.

I haven't  heard anyone TODAY propose the elect can die unsaved, and repent in hell, and be raised up in the Day of the Lord Jesus.

However, it was the belief of the Jews in the Days of Christ, AND the belief of the apostles in the New Testament.

I have ZERO authority, when I cite Scripture, IT is my authority because it is God's Word. You are not rejecting me when you ignore the scriptures I cite and focus instead on something about me.

That is evasion of God's word.

When I propose 2+2=4, and you reply I don't go to church enough, that reply is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent, an evasion of the math proposed.

When I cite a scripture and point out this implies some rise from hell who were found written in the book of life (= "Elect") and therefore NOT cast into the lake of fire:

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 (Rev 20:15 NKJ)

Compare:

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
 (1Co 5:5 NKJ)


AND you focus on my poor attendance at church, YOU are evading the truth of Scripture.


If you cared what God's Word says, and disagree with me, then you would respond citing the grammar and syntax of Rev 20:15 showing how it doesn't teach what I propose, and give another interpretation of the text I could discuss. ONLY AFTER you argue from it, another interpretation, you might cite other relevant texts in support of your interpretation and against mine.

You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.


Unfortunately, you don't get to set the rules of this game. If you're going to convince us of anything, you have to play by our rules.

Your rules put the tradition of men above the word of God.

Can you show me one scripture that commands that...then you will have done much to prove your case.

Just one text that insists your tradition, your councils, are above scripture, to be heeded against scripture.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1269 on: October 24, 2010, 09:43:50 PM »
I have documented from the Talmud

Again with the Talmud. You cite third-sixth century Jewish texts as authoritative, even while you reject the Fathers of the first and second centuries. As the Synodikon says, you don't know the difference between the Law and Grace, as evinced by your beating the dead horse of Deuteronomy 4:16.

Of course you neatly gloss over my and others' posts on the subject, instead attempting to obfuscate the issue once again with red herrings (i.e., the issue of smoking).

Quote from: Alfred Persson
You do not because you don't give a hoot what scripture says.
We don't give a hoot what your interpretation of scripture says. But you have yet to demonstrate scriptural interpretation is the sole basis of theology, so why would it matter anyway?

Incorrect, I cite them as part of the context, not as an Christian authority.

The command against idolatry is still in effect:

 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (1Jo 5:21 NKJ)

Smoking is not a red herring, there are MANY who would consider that much more sinful than irregular church attendance. It served its purpose, he dealt with THAT issue directly, unlike scripture...proving he could focus on an issue, when he wanted to...when it was important to him...evidently scripture is not one of those things that inspires the same focus.

I never asked you care about my interpretation, the only authority is scripture. I am citing what I see in scripture...if you cared about scripture, you would cite what you see in the same text, to support your beliefs.

You ignore scripture, talk about my church attendance etc...proving you don't give a hoot what scripture says. Your actions speak louder than your words:

 8 `These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"

 (Mat 15:8-9 NKJ)







For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1270 on: October 24, 2010, 09:48:19 PM »

Now speaking to Alfred: Alfred, the question of how frequently you go to church and your motivation for going to church infrequently, if you do, are important to this discussion. If you go infrequently out of honorable reasons, such as distance from church or bad health, then your infrequent church attendance gives us no reason to condemn your arguments as the arguments of a hypocrite. But if you go to church infrequently out of laziness, then the charge of hypocrisy is indeed a legitimate judgment that makes your ranting on this board truly lacking in any authority.

I rarely go, only when I feel like it.

They may have removed me from the membership rolls, I was warned.

Its a great church however, spirit filled believers all active in the LORD.

And I go when I can, when I feel like, when its convenient.
Now that you've admitted this, if bogdan, tuesdayschild, et al., want to continue to press you on your apparent hypocrisy, then I'm not going to challenge them, since they are now totally justified to do so. Such ad hominem would be appropriate, since in our eyes your adherence or lack thereof to the exhortation of Hebrews 10:25 is central to your authority to teach us.

I don't meet your standards, that's all.
But if you wish to convince us, our standards are indeed very important. If you don't meet them, I'm not sure you have any authority in our eyes to lecture us. We don't grant you the authority to preach, "Do as I say, not as I do."

I grant I should attend more, its a great church, I only hurt myself not going.

But of much greater concern is bowing down before an image, and kissing it, as though God is pleased with such acts.

Your distinction between honor and worship is irrelevant, as is the argument a two dimensional image doesn't violate Deut 4:12ff----BUT The text rules out every kind of icon, and NOT once does it hint honoring them is an exception to this command no images of God be made.

Moreover it specifically rules out icons of God in the form of a man, and as Jesus is God and man, you are most definitely in violation.

The  "fine distinctions" you suppose allow you to violate the spirit of God's prohibition, but not its letter, are precisely the kind of reasoning condemned by Christ here:


 16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say,`Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.'
 17 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?
 18 "And,`Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'
 19 "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?
 20 "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it.
 21 "He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it.
 22 "And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.
 (Mat 23:16-22 NKJ)

I never said I wouldn't end up in the Kingdom, in the "nose bleed" section of the arena, when the awards are given out.

But unless you repent of your idolatry, you won't even be in the stadium.

But you are re-hashing a settled issue. Today is the day we remember the Fathers of the 7th Ecumenical Council ( coincidentally) where the issue was closed once and for all. A private opinion like yours is simply and act of pride and misunderstanding at this late date.

The Christian Church has a mechanism for figuring out issues like veneration of icons. As you will recall from history, Iconoclasm enjoyed some support and caused much division and even violence. The Church didn't merely quash one side in favor of the other, it came together in Council. One Bishop, one vote. It sifted through every passage for and (seemingly) against. The Iconoclasts had full voice and put forward the exact same position you take fully and completely and without hindrance.  

At the end of the day, Iconoclasm did not hold up under the most rigorous scrutiny, by the most learned men, who were grafted onto the body of Christ thereby guided by the Holy Spirit.  Now, only people separated from the grace of God, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit cut off and adrift are left to to still take cheap shots based on  confused personal opinions.

Authentic Christianity is not a big pile of personal opinions. It is an organized religion with mechanisms to deal with important theological questions and with the full promise of the participation of God, as scripture makes clear.

Brother, you need to drop it revisit the subject and pray fervently for a fuller understanding.  

You Orthodox are inconsistent. You profess loyalty to the consensus of the fathers, but reject their consensus "chiliasm" is correct doctrine.

You profess loyalty to councils, but only the first Seven.

Why only the first seven? Because after that, its your private interpretation they are wrong.


You schismed from the Catholic church, rejecting their councils, yet these are the same as the first seven, nothing materially different in their composition...in their stated authority.

And then you hypocritically decry those who don't heed the fathers and church councils!

Your claims  the fathers and church councils are authoritative is contradicted by YOUR inconsistency, YOU prove by YOUR actions neither the Fathers or church councils, are authoritative.


You only follow them when you want to, when you feel like it,  when its convenient, when its the group thing to do. BUT all the other councils after the first seven, all of a sudden they are wrong!

Sure they are, because you say so, right?

So your position is not only hypocritical, its unsound, you are walking talking evidence what you claim about the fathers and church councils, cannot be correct.

You certainly don't believe them, THAT you prove by your actions. Actions speak much louder than words.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 10:02:20 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1271 on: October 24, 2010, 09:50:55 PM »
You have no authority or credibility here anymore, Alfred. Do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with thy God.
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Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1272 on: October 24, 2010, 09:59:07 PM »
1 John 4

 1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.


Jesus is the image and likeness of God. To deny that God has come to us in the flesh is to deny the Incarnation. If God came in the flesh, he can be depicted. If you say that Jesus cannot be depicted, you are implying either that he was not the image and likeness of God, or that you are afraid of him. Which is it?

The Jewish law no longer has dominion over us. Jesus fulfilled the law, so Deuteronomy no longer applies. In the Old Testament days, it did, because Jesus wasn't here yet, and nobody had seen God at the time. Then Jesus came, and He is True God and True Man, so we can say that somebody looked at God and didn't die on the spot. So after the coming of Jesus, what was before that 'expired' like an old driver's license. We already showed that St. John of Damascus proved that, which reference was posted not only in this thread but in another as well. What's not to understand?

If you want to be Jewish, then go ahead and say that, and be that. But if you cannot accept the fullness of Christ, then he is not fully the Messiah to you.

That's your call.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 10:02:17 PM by biro »
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1273 on: October 24, 2010, 10:08:42 PM »
Incorrect, I cite them as part of the context, not as an Christian authority.

The Talmud was written 125-400 years after the last book of the NT, St John's Apocalypse. Post-Temple Rabbinic Judaism is completely different from Temple Judaism. Hellenized though it was in Christ's day, it was still totally different. The Talmud has nothing to say about Judaism contemporary to Christ.

So you're wrong. It's not part of the context, it is Judaizing.

The command against idolatry is still in effect:

 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (1Jo 5:21 NKJ)

idodulia ≠ idolatria
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 10:13:15 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1274 on: October 24, 2010, 10:12:11 PM »
1 John 4

 1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.


Jesus is the image and likeness of God. To deny that God has come to us in the flesh is to deny the Incarnation. If God came in the flesh, he can be depicted. If you say that Jesus cannot be depicted, you are implying either that he was not the image and likeness of God, or that you are afraid of him. Which is it?

The Jewish law no longer has dominion over us. Jesus fulfilled the law, so Deuteronomy no longer applies. In the Old Testament days, it did, because Jesus wasn't here yet, and nobody had seen God at the time. Then Jesus came, and He is True God and True Man, so we can say that somebody looked at God and didn't die on the spot. So after the coming of Jesus, what was before that 'expired' like an old driver's license. We already showed that St. John of Damascus proved that, which reference was posted not only in this thread but in another as well. What's not to understand?

If you want to be Jewish, then go ahead and say that, and be that. But if you cannot accept the fullness of Christ, then he is not fully the Messiah to you.

That's your call.

So you agree denying Jesus came in human flesh is antichrist, good.

3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

As it is forbidden we make any sort of Icon of God in human flesh:

 15 And take good heed to your hearts, for ye saw no similitude in the day in which the Lord spoke to you in Choreb in the mountain out of the midst of the fire:
 16 lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of EIKONA figure, the likeness of male or female,
 (Deu 4:15-16 LXE)

It follows all make who icons of God the Son do thereby deny 1)Jesus is God; 2)Jesus came in human flesh.

The only way an icon of God the Son be made, without contradicting De 4:15-16, is if Jesus is not God, or His incarnate flesh was unlike anything in creation.

All who venerate icons therefore deny the concrete reality of God the Son incarnate in human flesh.


The prohibition against idolatry is not "Jewish law," its still in effect, prohibited in the NT, contradicting any theory its "Jewish law":

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
(2Co 6:16-18 KJV)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 10:15:28 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1275 on: October 24, 2010, 10:15:41 PM »
The only way an icon of God the Son be made, without contradicting De 4:15-16, is if Jesus is not God, or His incarnate flesh was unlike anything in creation.


LOL. Nice false dichotomy.

Or if Deuteronomy 4:15-16 no longer applies.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1276 on: October 24, 2010, 10:20:43 PM »
Incorrect, I cite them as part of the context, not as an Christian authority.

The Talmud was written 125-400 years after the last book of the NT, St John's Apocalypse. Post-Temple Rabbinic Judaism is completely different from Temple Judaism. Hellenized though it was in Christ's day, it was still totally different. The Talmud has nothing to say about Judaism contemporary to Christ.

So you're wrong. It's not part of the context, it is Judaizing.

The command against idolatry is still in effect:

 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (1Jo 5:21 NKJ)

idodulia ≠ idolatria

Its context, not all of it, just those parts relating what happened in Jesus' Day. For example, the apostle Paul's teacher can be found therein giving opinions:

 40 And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying,

KJV  Acts 22:1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
 2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
 3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
 (Act 21:40-3 KJV)

The Talmud is just as much context, and perhaps more so, that Greek literature of the period. Reference to it is essential for the right understanding of some of Paul's idioms. For example:

 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Ti 2:15-1 KJV)

You try interpreting that with your gentile traditions, and church councils, and so prove the superiority of your traditions.

How precisely are women saved in childbearing, it does not seem to be the case:

18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
 (Gen 35:18-19 KJV)

AND why is her salvation dependent upon the continued faithfulness of her children...so she won't be saved if they are unfaithful...how is THAT teaching Christian?

Sola scriptura can easily interpret this texts, because we are open to the context, and the interpretation that best resolves the ambiguity, is consistent with the grammar and syntax, is the correct one.

BUT YOU are completely unable to interpret this verse, with your traditions and church councils.

Compared to a sola scripturaist , you are handicapped, crippled, unable to walk even with all your helps.


« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 10:30:04 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1277 on: October 24, 2010, 10:22:03 PM »
An icon is not an idol. The Greek text uses two different words for these things, because they are two different things.

The passage you cited referred to carved images. An icon is a painted, two-dimensional image, not a carved, three-dimensional one. It seems you don't even know what an icon is, or you want to change the definition to something it patently is not. The former is lack of awareness. The latter is just dishonest. There is no justification for you to do that.

You can't play with the dictionary, or the Bible. They are what they are, and they aren't what they aren't.

And you can play Reversi with the Seventh Ecumenical Council all you want, but it still concluded what it did, not the opposite, no matter how hard you wish.
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1278 on: October 24, 2010, 10:29:53 PM »
The only way an icon of God the Son be made, without contradicting De 4:15-16, is if Jesus is not God, or His incarnate flesh was unlike anything in creation.


LOL. Nice false dichotomy.

Or if Deuteronomy 4:15-16 no longer applies.

So Alfred, do you think the laws in Leviticus which prohibit eating shellfish and wearing clothes with two different types of cloth still apply? If no, why not?

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1279 on: October 24, 2010, 10:32:42 PM »
The only way an icon of God the Son be made, without contradicting De 4:15-16, is if Jesus is not God, or His incarnate flesh was unlike anything in creation.


LOL. Nice false dichotomy.

Or if Deuteronomy 4:15-16 no longer applies.

Of course it still applies:

 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
 (Act 17:29-30 KJV)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1280 on: October 24, 2010, 10:37:55 PM »
Again, an icon is not graven or carved. It is a flat painting.

Surely you know the difference between a statue and a carving?

There are two different words in the Greek text, because these are two different things.

Why are you trying to conflate two things which are not the same?

It's as if you're claiming that a car and a bus are the same thing, because they both have wheels. It's not a difference of opinion. You are trying to ignore or change the facts.

You can't do that.
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1281 on: October 24, 2010, 10:38:50 PM »
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Ti 2:15-1 KJV)

You try interpreting that with your gentile traditions, and church councils, and so prove the superiority of your traditions.

How precisely are women saved in childbearing, it does not seem to be the case:

18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
 (Gen 35:18-19 KJV)

AND why is her salvation dependent upon the continued faithfulness of her children...so she won't be saved if they are unfaithful...how is THAT teaching Christian?

Sola scriptura can easily interpret this texts, because we are open to the context, and the interpretation that best resolves the ambiguity, is consistent with the grammar and syntax, is the correct one.

BUT YOU are completely unable to interpret this verse, with your traditions and church councils.

Compared to a sola scripturaist , you are handicapped, crippled, unable to walk even with all your helps.


WTH are you talking about? What is this, The Da Vinci Code? Is that Tom Hanks in the shadows, spewing a bunch of crypto-nonsense? What you say above makes no sense at all.

I have a few passages from the Fathers I could share from their commentaries, but I don't feel like descending back into the mire with you. We don't need even more troll bait around here.

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1282 on: October 24, 2010, 10:40:14 PM »
The only way an icon of God the Son be made, without contradicting De 4:15-16, is if Jesus is not God, or His incarnate flesh was unlike anything in creation.


LOL. Nice false dichotomy.

Or if Deuteronomy 4:15-16 no longer applies.

Of course it still applies:

 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
 (Act 17:29-30 KJV)

Maybe you should go read the canons of the Seventh Council so you at least look like you know what you're talking about. You really have no idea what you're saying.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1283 on: October 24, 2010, 10:40:29 PM »
An icon is not an idol. The Greek text uses two different words for these things, because they are two different things.

The passage you cited referred to carved images. An icon is a painted, two-dimensional image, not a carved, three-dimensional one. It seems you don't even know what an icon is, or you want to change the definition to something it patently is not. The former is lack of awareness. The latter is just dishonest. There is no justification for you to do that.

You can't play with the dictionary, or the Bible. They are what they are, and they aren't what they aren't.

And you can play Reversi with the Seventh Ecumenical Council all you want, but it still concluded what it did, not the opposite, no matter how hard you wish.

An icon IS an image. The text forbids EVERY sort of ICON:

 16 lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of EIKONA figure, the likeness of male or female,
 (Deu 4:15-16 LXE)

That means two dimensional icons are also forbidden, ANY KIND of Icon.

As for Councils, magically they are right until the Seventh, then because you don't like what follows, you reject them.

Your actions speak louder than words...

Same with your professed loyalty to the consensus of the fathers, the earliest (Papias, Justin Martyr, Theophilus, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Caius according to Eusebius, Origin, Commodianus, Nepos accorinding to Dionysius of Alexandria, Victorinus, Methodius, Lactantius to name a few) ALL believed in the Millennial reign of Christ:




For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1284 on: October 24, 2010, 10:44:32 PM »
As for Councils, magically they are right until the Seventh, then because you don't like what follows, you reject them.

LOL! What?! We have tons of other councils afterwards, we just don't name them among the Great Ecumenical Councils. They are all in full force and effect. But I only need to name one to prove you wrong: Constantinople IV, 879-880.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1285 on: October 24, 2010, 10:46:05 PM »
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Ti 2:15-1 KJV)

You try interpreting that with your gentile traditions, and church councils, and so prove the superiority of your traditions.

How precisely are women saved in childbearing, it does not seem to be the case:

18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
 (Gen 35:18-19 KJV)

AND why is her salvation dependent upon the continued faithfulness of her children...so she won't be saved if they are unfaithful...how is THAT teaching Christian?

Sola scriptura can easily interpret this texts, because we are open to the context, and the interpretation that best resolves the ambiguity, is consistent with the grammar and syntax, is the correct one.

BUT YOU are completely unable to interpret this verse, with your traditions and church councils.

Compared to a sola scripturaist , you are handicapped, crippled, unable to walk even with all your helps.


WTH are you talking about? What is this, The Da Vinci Code? Is that Tom Hanks in the shadows, spewing a bunch of crypto-nonsense? What you say above makes no sense at all.

I have a few passages from the Fathers I could share from their commentaries, but I don't feel like descending back into the mire with you. We don't need even more troll bait around here.

Its a simple request. You claim Orthodox tradition is apostolic, that in the context of Orthodox Tradition, the NT can be correctly understood.

PROVE IT.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Ti 2:15-1 KJV)

Tell me what this apostolic teaching is, using your Traditions.


How precisely are women saved in childbearing, it does not seem to be the case:

18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
 (Gen 35:18-19 KJV)

AND how can her salvation depend upon the continued faithfulness of her children...why does Paul say she will pay for the sins of her children?

Sola scriptura can easily interpret this because we are open to the context, and the interpretation that best resolves the ambiguity, that is consistent with the grammar and syntax, is the correct one.

YOU Orthodox however, claim great things for your tradition, BUT is it really better than sola scriptura?

PROVE IT, Tell me what Paul meant.


If you persist on calling me names, its not I who be the troll.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 10:50:09 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1286 on: October 24, 2010, 10:52:13 PM »
PROVE IT.

I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request.

(Means "no".)

This is not a game of comparisons. Your goal was to come here and convert us to your heresy. You haven't done that. The most you can do is drag our beliefs through the mud. Yet you have nothing better to offer (i.e., you haven't proven Sola Scriptura to not be heresy), so why would I ever play your game?

If you persist on calling me names, its not I who is the troll.

« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 10:53:29 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1287 on: October 24, 2010, 10:53:17 PM »
As for Councils, magically they are right until the Seventh, then because you don't like what follows, you reject them.

LOL! What?! We have tons of other councils afterwards, we just don't name them among the Great Ecumenical Councils. They are all in full force and effect. But I only need to name one to prove you wrong: Constantinople IV, 879-880.

Which council declared the Roman Catholic pope infallible...copy paste the statement of your pope he agrees.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1288 on: October 24, 2010, 10:56:23 PM »
As for Councils, magically they are right until the Seventh, then because you don't like what follows, you reject them.

LOL! What?! We have tons of other councils afterwards, we just don't name them among the Great Ecumenical Councils. They are all in full force and effect. But I only need to name one to prove you wrong: Constantinople IV, 879-880.

Which council declared the Roman Catholic pope infallible...copy paste the statement of your pope he agrees.

We don't have a pope. Well, we do, but not in the sense you're thinking.

If the Romans declared their pope to be infallible, it was not at an ecumenical council. The See of Rome departed the Church in the 11th century. What they did afterwards is not ecumenical, because it was not an action of the oikoumenē.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 10:56:58 PM by bogdan »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1289 on: October 24, 2010, 10:57:05 PM »
As for Councils, magically they are right until the Seventh, then because you don't like what follows, you reject them.

LOL! What?! We have tons of other councils afterwards, we just don't name them among the Great Ecumenical Councils. They are all in full force and effect. But I only need to name one to prove you wrong: Constantinople IV, 879-880.

Which council declared the Roman Catholic pope infallible...copy paste the statement of your pope he agrees.
ummmm. What site do you think that you are on?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1290 on: October 24, 2010, 10:57:43 PM »
PROVE IT.

I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request.

(Means "no".)

This is not a game of comparisons. Your goal was to come here and convert us to your heresy. You haven't done that. The most you can do is drag our beliefs through the mud. Yet you have nothing better to offer (i.e., you haven't proven Sola Scriptura to not be heresy), so why would I ever play your game?

If you persist on calling me names, its not I who is the troll.



One of your icons?


You can't interpret the verse.

Just like Catholics, you are crippled by your dependence on men to understand scripture.

A novice sola scripturaist easily interprets verses that befuddle you completely, because he reads the text...while you must cast about in a nebulous tradition or in the often contradictory fathers for an answer...

If there were a TV game where one is asked "what meaneth this verse", you would embarrass yourself, never able to answer, while the child sola scripturist, would run rings around you, confidently revealing God's Word to the people.

I take your inability to interpret that ONE verse, as indicative the entire Bible is a parable to you. You just aren't in with the in crowd:

 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. (Luk 8:10 KJV)



« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 10:58:44 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1291 on: October 24, 2010, 11:00:42 PM »
I'm sorry, I can't answer posts that are incoherent.

On to other news, then.

I looked up the zip code of Alfred's church, Grace, which is in Sun Valley. That's 91352.

It just so happens, that's right down the road from St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, in Northridge (91325). It'll probably just take you a few minutes!

Stop by and say hello. I'm sure they love to meet people. Also, they certainly will be able to help you out with some explanatory material about icons, and very likely, a guided tour.

 :angel:
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist


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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1292 on: October 24, 2010, 11:02:29 PM »
As for Councils, magically they are right until the Seventh, then because you don't like what follows, you reject them.

LOL! What?! We have tons of other councils afterwards, we just don't name them among the Great Ecumenical Councils. They are all in full force and effect. But I only need to name one to prove you wrong: Constantinople IV, 879-880.

Which council declared the Roman Catholic pope infallible...copy paste the statement of your pope he agrees.

We don't have a pope. Well, we do, but not in the sense you're thinking.

If the Romans declared their pope to be infallible, it was not at an ecumenical council. The See of Rome departed the Church in the 11th century. What they did afterwards is not ecumenical, because it was not an action of the oikoumenē.

That's the ticket...they magically aren't ecumenical any more...even though they say they are...

Because you don't want them to be...

I see how this works...you can reject a council, and its OK, but if I do it, I'm wrong...

I get it...so will any reading this, who can still think for themselves.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1293 on: October 24, 2010, 11:05:46 PM »
I'm sorry, I can't answer posts that are incoherent.

On to other news, then.

I looked up the zip code of Alfred's church, Grace, which is in Sun Valley. That's 91352.

It just so happens, that's right down the road from St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, in Northridge (91325). It'll probably just take you a few minutes!

Stop by and say hello. I'm sure they love to meet people. Also, they certainly will be able to help you out with some explanatory material about icons, and very likely, a guided tour.

 :angel:

Thanks for the invite, but been there, done that. The icons prevented me from entering...no, they didn't force me out.

God did:

 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. (1Co 10:14 KJV)

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 (2Co 6:16-1 KJV)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 11:06:26 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1294 on: October 24, 2010, 11:10:16 PM »
As for Councils, magically they are right until the Seventh, then because you don't like what follows, you reject them.

LOL! What?! We have tons of other councils afterwards, we just don't name them among the Great Ecumenical Councils. They are all in full force and effect. But I only need to name one to prove you wrong: Constantinople IV, 879-880.

Which council declared the Roman Catholic pope infallible...copy paste the statement of your pope he agrees.

We don't have a pope. Well, we do, but not in the sense you're thinking.

If the Romans declared their pope to be infallible, it was not at an ecumenical council. The See of Rome departed the Church in the 11th century. What they did afterwards is not ecumenical, because it was not an action of the oikoumenē.

That's the ticket...they magically aren't ecumenical any more...even though they say they are...

Because you don't want them to be...

I see how this works...you can reject a council, and its OK, but if I do it, I'm wrong...

I get it...so will any reading this, who can still think for themselves.

Yes, the Church can reject a council. The Church is the Body of Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

But Alfred Persson is not the Church, so Alfred Persson cannot reject a Council that the Church says is Ecumenical.

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1295 on: October 24, 2010, 11:11:11 PM »
Alfred doesn't seem to have heard that the Orthodox and (Roman) Catholic Churches are separate, and have been since the 11th Century... oh, dear, this is a new level, even for this discussion.

 :o

Wow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Schism

https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist


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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1296 on: October 24, 2010, 11:14:37 PM »


One of your icons?

Ad Hominem attacks are prohibited here, so I will bind my tongue.

You can't interpret the verse.

Just like Catholics, you are crippled by your dependence on men to understand scripture.

A novice sola scripturaist easily interprets verses that befuddle you completely, because he reads the text...while you must cast about in a nebulous tradition or in the often contradictory fathers for an answer...

If there were a TV game where one is asked "what meaneth this verse", you would embarrass yourself, never able to answer, while the child sola scripturist, would run rings around you, confidently revealing God's Word to the people.

I take your inability to interpret that ONE verse, as indicative the entire Bible is a parable to you. You just aren't in with the in crowd:

 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. (Luk 8:10 KJV)



Congrats, you won, and I lost. So are you done now?

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1297 on: October 24, 2010, 11:16:56 PM »
As for Councils, magically they are right until the Seventh, then because you don't like what follows, you reject them.

LOL! What?! We have tons of other councils afterwards, we just don't name them among the Great Ecumenical Councils. They are all in full force and effect. But I only need to name one to prove you wrong: Constantinople IV, 879-880.

Which council declared the Roman Catholic pope infallible...copy paste the statement of your pope he agrees.

We don't have a pope. Well, we do, but not in the sense you're thinking.

If the Romans declared their pope to be infallible, it was not at an ecumenical council. The See of Rome departed the Church in the 11th century. What they did afterwards is not ecumenical, because it was not an action of the oikoumenē.

That's the ticket...they magically aren't ecumenical any more...even though they say they are...

Because you don't want them to be...

I see how this works...you can reject a council, and its OK, but if I do it, I'm wrong...

I get it...so will any reading this, who can still think for themselves.

Yes, the Church can reject a council. The Church is the Body of Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

But Alfred Persson is not the Church, so Alfred Persson cannot reject a Council that the Church says is Ecumenical.

Not according to the Catholic church, you aren't allowed to reject their councils at all.

Your position is indefensible, ultimately its YOUR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION the Orthodox church is the body of Christ.

You have no proof it is, nothing objective.

I look for objective facts that can be tested. I compare a church's claims, with what I know is the Body of Christ, revealed in the New Testament.

BOTH Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism fail the test.

Its why neither of you point to Scripture as proof of your dogmas. You can't, it contradicts them.

Its really that simple.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1298 on: October 24, 2010, 11:19:22 PM »
As for Councils, magically they are right until the Seventh, then because you don't like what follows, you reject them.

LOL! What?! We have tons of other councils afterwards, we just don't name them among the Great Ecumenical Councils. They are all in full force and effect. But I only need to name one to prove you wrong: Constantinople IV, 879-880.

Which council declared the Roman Catholic pope infallible...copy paste the statement of your pope he agrees.

We don't have a pope. Well, we do, but not in the sense you're thinking.

If the Romans declared their pope to be infallible, it was not at an ecumenical council. The See of Rome departed the Church in the 11th century. What they did afterwards is not ecumenical, because it was not an action of the oikoumenē.

That's the ticket...they magically aren't ecumenical any more...even though they say they are...

Because you don't want them to be...

I see how this works...you can reject a council, and its OK, but if I do it, I'm wrong...

I get it...so will any reading this, who can still think for themselves.

Yes, the Church can reject a council. The Church is the Body of Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

But Alfred Persson is not the Church, so Alfred Persson cannot reject a Council that the Church says is Ecumenical.

Not according to the Catholic church, you aren't allowed to reject their councils at all.

Your position is indefensible, ultimately its YOUR PRIVATE INTERPRETATION the Orthodox church is the body of Christ.

You have no proof it is, nothing objective.

I look for objective facts that can be tested. I compare a church's claims, with what I know is the Body of Christ, revealed in the New Testament.

BOTH Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism fail the test.

Its why neither of you point to Scripture as proof of your dogmas. You can't, it contradicts them.

Its really that simple.





More trolling.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1299 on: October 24, 2010, 11:25:55 PM »
Congrats, you won, and I lost. So are you done now?

No. I want to see proof interpreting scripture within Orthodox Tradition is superior to sola scriptura, which allows consideration of every possible interpretation, but insists only the one consistent with the grammar and syntax, is correct.

This isn't idle conversation, eternal destinies are at stake.

You folks consistently tell me to immerse myself in Orthodoxy, then I will  understand apostolic doctrine.

Prove it, you all are immersed in Orthodoxy, so it should be easy for you to explain the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Ti 2:15-1 KJV)

Tell me what this apostolic teaching is, using your Traditions.

Doesn't Paul teach we are saved by faith in Christ, how is it this woman loses her salvation if her children do not continue in the faith?

AND how precisely are women saved in childbearing, it does not seem to be the case in scripture or in reality:

18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
 (Gen 35:18-19 KJV)


So tell me what this verse means to one immersed in Orthodox tradition like yourself


If you can't interpret this verse, even though you all are immersed in Orthodox Traditions, then your claim I must be immersed first, so I can understand, was  a lie.



Proving you can interpret God's riddles is definitely an indication whether or not you have the Spirit of God, that is, if you are a member of the Body of Christ:

 11 "There is a man in your kingdom in whom is the Spirit of the Holy God. And in the days of your father, light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, were found in him; and King Nebuchadnezzar your father-- your father the king-- made him chief of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers.
 12 "Inasmuch as an excellent spirit, knowledge, understanding, interpreting dreams, solving riddles, and explaining enigmas were found in this Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar, now let Daniel be called, and he will give the interpretation."
 (Dan 5:11-12 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 11:34:15 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1300 on: October 24, 2010, 11:33:08 PM »
Again: the word "icon" is not the same word as "idol," whether you look at the Greek text or the English. You cannot conflate the two terms, any more than you can claim to find the definition for the word "apple" by pointing to the defintion of "orange."

Is this really all you have? Why do you think the majority of Christendom finds icons acceptable? Of the two billion Christians in the world, the majority come from churches which find icons acceptable. One billion Catholics, 250 million Orthodox, and many if not most of the Anglicans and Lutherans (although some of the latter use icons primarily in display, rather than veneration)-- that adds up. So, most Christians think icons are okay. Not only the Orthodox and Catholics accept them-- so do many Protestants. It has been pointed out repeatedly that iconoclasm is a heresy which was quashed hundreds of years ago, and that the reappearance of the idea is still a heresy, seen only in a small percentage of churches.

Sorry. You're still outside the fold. Why would you want to be like that? Do you think you're the only Christian ever? Then again, you have claimed to be the only person who believes what the Apostles wrote, as written, so I don't know where else you can go with this.  ??? I don't want to be like that. Make yourself humble, make yourself small-- don't be the sheep who wants to wander away from the flock. Be the one who wants the Good Shepherd to lead them.

I want to be in the fold, not in the outer darkness, where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1301 on: October 24, 2010, 11:37:03 PM »
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Ti 2:15-1 KJV)

You try interpreting that with your gentile traditions, and church councils, and so prove the superiority of your traditions.

How precisely are women saved in childbearing, it does not seem to be the case:

18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
 (Gen 35:18-19 KJV)

AND why is her salvation dependent upon the continued faithfulness of her children...so she won't be saved if they are unfaithful...how is THAT teaching Christian?

Sola scriptura can easily interpret this texts, because we are open to the context, and the interpretation that best resolves the ambiguity, is consistent with the grammar and syntax, is the correct one.

BUT YOU are completely unable to interpret this verse, with your traditions and church councils.

Compared to a sola scripturaist , you are handicapped, crippled, unable to walk even with all your helps.


WTH are you talking about? What is this, The Da Vinci Code? Is that Tom Hanks in the shadows, spewing a bunch of crypto-nonsense? What you say above makes no sense at all.

I have a few passages from the Fathers I could share from their commentaries, but I don't feel like descending back into the mire with you. We don't need even more troll bait around here.

Its a simple request. You claim Orthodox tradition is apostolic, that in the context of Orthodox Tradition, the NT can be correctly understood.

PROVE IT.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Ti 2:15-1 KJV)

Tell me what this apostolic teaching is, using your Traditions.


How precisely are women saved in childbearing, it does not seem to be the case:

18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
 (Gen 35:18-19 KJV)

AND how can her salvation depend upon the continued faithfulness of her children...why does Paul say she will pay for the sins of her children?

Sola scriptura can easily interpret this because we are open to the context, and the interpretation that best resolves the ambiguity, that is consistent with the grammar and syntax, is the correct one.

YOU Orthodox however, claim great things for your tradition, BUT is it really better than sola scriptura?

PROVE IT, Tell me what Paul meant.



Pop fly to left field!

First, how does Rachel's physical death in childbirth, a common occurrence until recent times and one St Paul and his readers would have known quite well, have anything to do with the I Tim passage you cite?  What exactly are you getting at here?  St Paul is not speaking of physical salvation and safety.

Second, what are you leaving out?

" I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.  Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve.  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.  Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control."

Seems to me that it is saying that child-rearing and good works are the proper ministry for women.  

What do my betters have to say?

'But how was Adam not deceived? If he was not deceived, he did not then transgress? Attend carefully. The woman said, "The serpent beguiled me." But the man did not say, The woman deceived me, but, "she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." Now it is not the same thing to be deceived by a fellow-creature, one of the same kind, as by an inferior and subordinate animal. This is truly to be deceived. Compared therefore with the woman, he is spoken of as "not deceived." For she was beguiled by an inferior and subject, he by an equal. Again, it is not said of the man, that he "saw the tree was good for food," but of the woman, and that she "did eat, and gave it to her husband": so that he transgressed, not captivated by appetite, but merely from the persuasion of his wife. The woman taught once, and ruined all. On this account therefore he saith, let her not teach. But what is it to other women, that she suffered this? It certainly concerns them; for the sex is weak and fickle, and he is speaking of the sex collectively. For he says not Eve, but "the woman," which is the common name of the whole sex, not her proper name. Was then the whole sex included in the transgression for her fault? As he said of Adam, "After the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come" (Rom. v. 14); so here the female sex transgressed, and not the male. Shall not women then be saved? Yes, by means of children. For it is not of Eve that he says, "If they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." What faith? what charity? what holiness with sobriety? It is as if he had said, "Ye women, be not cast down, because your sex has incurred blame. God has granted you another opportunity of salvation, by the bringing up of children, so that you are saved, not only by yourselves, but by others." See how many questions are involved in this matter. "The woman," he says, "being deceived was in the transgression." What woman? Eve. Shall she then be saved by child-bearing? He does not say that, but, the race of women shall be saved. Was not it then involved in transgression? Yes, it was, still Eve transgressed, but the whole sex shall be saved, notwithstanding, "by childbearing." And why not by their own personal virtue? For has she excluded others from this salvation? And what will be the case with virgins, with the barren, with widows who have lost their husbands, before they had children? will they perish? is there no hope for them? yet virgins are held in the highest estimation. What then does he mean to say?

Some interpret his meaning thus. As what happened to the first woman occasioned the subjection of the whole sex, (for since Eve was formed second and made subject, he says, let the rest of the sex be in subjection,) so because she transgressed, the rest of the sex are also in transgression. But this is not fair reasoning; for at the creation all was the gift of God, but in this case, it is the consequence of the woman's sin. But this is the amount of what he says. As all men died through one, because that one sinned, so the whole female race transgressed, because the woman was in the transgression. Let her not however grieve. God hath given her no small consolation, that of childbearing. And if it be said that this is of nature, so is that(1) also of nature; for not only that which is of nature has been granted, but also the bringing up of children. "If they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety"; that is, if after childbearing, they keep them(2) in charity and purity. By these means they will have no small reward on their account, because they have trained up wrestlers for the service of Christ. By holiness he means good life, modesty, and sobriety.' -St John  Chrysostom Homilies on First Timothy, Homily IX
 
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1302 on: October 24, 2010, 11:43:31 PM »
Congrats, you won, and I lost. So are you done now?

No. I want to see proof interpreting scripture within Orthodox Tradition is superior to sola scriptura, which allows consideration of every possible interpretation, but insists only the one consistent with the grammar and syntax, is correct.

This isn't idle conversation, eternal destinies are at stake.

You folks consistently tell me to immerse myself in Orthodoxy, then I will  understand apostolic doctrine.

Prove it, you all are immersed in Orthodoxy, so it should be easy for you to explain the apostolic doctrine in this verse:

Our immersion is irrelevant to you. You can't see if you don't open your eyes, no matter how well we explain what is in front of your face. You have to practice kenosis if you want to understand Orthodoxy, and you have demonstrated you are quite content with being full of yourself.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 11:45:09 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1303 on: October 25, 2010, 12:00:01 AM »
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Ti 2:15-1 KJV)

You try interpreting that with your gentile traditions, and church councils, and so prove the superiority of your traditions.

How precisely are women saved in childbearing, it does not seem to be the case:

18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
 (Gen 35:18-19 KJV)

AND why is her salvation dependent upon the continued faithfulness of her children...so she won't be saved if they are unfaithful...how is THAT teaching Christian?

Sola scriptura can easily interpret this texts, because we are open to the context, and the interpretation that best resolves the ambiguity, is consistent with the grammar and syntax, is the correct one.

BUT YOU are completely unable to interpret this verse, with your traditions and church councils.

Compared to a sola scripturaist , you are handicapped, crippled, unable to walk even with all your helps.


WTH are you talking about? What is this, The Da Vinci Code? Is that Tom Hanks in the shadows, spewing a bunch of crypto-nonsense? What you say above makes no sense at all.

I have a few passages from the Fathers I could share from their commentaries, but I don't feel like descending back into the mire with you. We don't need even more troll bait around here.

Its a simple request. You claim Orthodox tradition is apostolic, that in the context of Orthodox Tradition, the NT can be correctly understood.

PROVE IT.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Ti 2:15-1 KJV)

Tell me what this apostolic teaching is, using your Traditions.


How precisely are women saved in childbearing, it does not seem to be the case:

18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
 19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
 (Gen 35:18-19 KJV)

AND how can her salvation depend upon the continued faithfulness of her children...why does Paul say she will pay for the sins of her children?

Sola scriptura can easily interpret this because we are open to the context, and the interpretation that best resolves the ambiguity, that is consistent with the grammar and syntax, is the correct one.

YOU Orthodox however, claim great things for your tradition, BUT is it really better than sola scriptura?

PROVE IT, Tell me what Paul meant.



Pop fly to left field!

First, how does Rachel's physical death in childbirth, a common occurrence until recent times and one St Paul and his readers would have known quite well, have anything to do with the I Tim passage you cite?  What exactly are you getting at here?  St Paul is not speaking of physical salvation and safety.

Second, what are you leaving out?

" I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.  Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve.  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.  Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control."

Seems to me that it is saying that child-rearing and good works are the proper ministry for women.  

What do my betters have to say?

'But how was Adam not deceived? If he was not deceived, he did not then transgress? Attend carefully. The woman said, "The serpent beguiled me." But the man did not say, The woman deceived me, but, "she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." Now it is not the same thing to be deceived by a fellow-creature, one of the same kind, as by an inferior and subordinate animal. This is truly to be deceived. Compared therefore with the woman, he is spoken of as "not deceived." For she was beguiled by an inferior and subject, he by an equal. Again, it is not said of the man, that he "saw the tree was good for food," but of the woman, and that she "did eat, and gave it to her husband": so that he transgressed, not captivated by appetite, but merely from the persuasion of his wife. The woman taught once, and ruined all. On this account therefore he saith, let her not teach. But what is it to other women, that she suffered this? It certainly concerns them; for the sex is weak and fickle, and he is speaking of the sex collectively. For he says not Eve, but "the woman," which is the common name of the whole sex, not her proper name. Was then the whole sex included in the transgression for her fault? As he said of Adam, "After the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come" (Rom. v. 14); so here the female sex transgressed, and not the male. Shall not women then be saved? Yes, by means of children. For it is not of Eve that he says, "If they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." What faith? what charity? what holiness with sobriety? It is as if he had said, "Ye women, be not cast down, because your sex has incurred blame. God has granted you another opportunity of salvation, by the bringing up of children, so that you are saved, not only by yourselves, but by others." See how many questions are involved in this matter. "The woman," he says, "being deceived was in the transgression." What woman? Eve. Shall she then be saved by child-bearing? He does not say that, but, the race of women shall be saved. Was not it then involved in transgression? Yes, it was, still Eve transgressed, but the whole sex shall be saved, notwithstanding, "by childbearing." And why not by their own personal virtue? For has she excluded others from this salvation? And what will be the case with virgins, with the barren, with widows who have lost their husbands, before they had children? will they perish? is there no hope for them? yet virgins are held in the highest estimation. What then does he mean to say?

Some interpret his meaning thus. As what happened to the first woman occasioned the subjection of the whole sex, (for since Eve was formed second and made subject, he says, let the rest of the sex be in subjection,) so because she transgressed, the rest of the sex are also in transgression. But this is not fair reasoning; for at the creation all was the gift of God, but in this case, it is the consequence of the woman's sin. But this is the amount of what he says. As all men died through one, because that one sinned, so the whole female race transgressed, because the woman was in the transgression. Let her not however grieve. God hath given her no small consolation, that of childbearing. And if it be said that this is of nature, so is that(1) also of nature; for not only that which is of nature has been granted, but also the bringing up of children. "If they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety"; that is, if after childbearing, they keep them(2) in charity and purity. By these means they will have no small reward on their account, because they have trained up wrestlers for the service of Christ. By holiness he means good life, modesty, and sobriety.' -St John  Chrysostom Homilies on First Timothy, Homily IX
 

WHAT!

"Seems to me that it is saying that child-rearing and good works are the proper ministry for women.  "

THAT is what being immersed in Orthodox Tradition provides, a "seems to me" interpretation!

Wait one cotton picking minute...how is you talking like me, superior to me?

AS for your "betters", they seem just as confused:

Shall not women then be saved? Yes, by means of children. For it is not of Eve that he says, "If they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." What faith? what charity? what holiness with sobriety? It is as if he had said, "Ye women, be not cast down, because your sex has incurred blame. God has granted you another opportunity of salvation, by the bringing up of children, so that you are saved, not only by yourselves, but by others."

HOW is her salvation lost if they don't continue in in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Ti 2:15-1 KJV)

AND then he contradicts HIMSELF (see underlined words above), AND Paul saying:

Shall she then be saved by child-bearing? He does not say that, but, the race of women shall be saved

Paul (and he) most definitely said "she shall be saved", not "the race of women shall be saved", σωθήσεται  "she shall be saved" is third person singular.

Chrysostom contradicted both himself and Paul...

Is that the best you can do?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 12:03:48 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1304 on: October 25, 2010, 12:02:45 AM »
PROVE IT.

I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request.

(Means "no".)

This is not a game of comparisons. Your goal was to come here and convert us to your heresy. You haven't done that. The most you can do is drag our beliefs through the mud. Yet you have nothing better to offer (i.e., you haven't proven Sola Scriptura to not be heresy), so why would I ever play your game?

If you persist on calling me names, its not I who is the troll.



One of your icons?
Honestly, Alfred, that was quite rude. Feel free to argue against our tradition of venerating icons all you want, but please respect the fact that icons are sacred to us by not taking such puerile cheap shots at their aesthetics.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 12:07:31 AM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.