Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 188408 times)

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Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1170 on: October 22, 2010, 10:44:23 AM »
Alfred, what's stopping you from attending an Orthodox church to find out for yourself what Orthodoxy teaches? What are you afraid of? The truth?


Icons stopped me. I flee idolatry. As I entered, I saw the icons, turned around, and left, never to return.

As you folks failed to prove your claim about icons, my decision not to enter remains in effect.

What I want to do to idols, is not something you would agree with.



The Iconic Image of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ scares you?

Prayer and fasting are in order, then please try again. What is stopping you, from our perspective, is likely a demon.

I think you should read the accounts of the 7th Ecumenical Council in detail. The issue of icons was thoroughly debated with both sides providing ample arguments based on scripture and history. It was a painstaking endeavour.

here is a link to some info.  http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/Ecumenical_Councils.htm#9

The decree of the Council for restoring icons to churches added an important clause which still stands at the foundation of the rationale for using and venerating icons in the Orthodox Church to this very day: "We define that the holy icons, whether in colour, mosaic, or some other material, should be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on the sacred vessels and liturgical vestments, on the walls, furnishings, and in houses and along the roads, namely the icons of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, that of our Lady the Theotokos, those of the venerable angels and those of all saintly people. Whenever these representations are contemplated, they will cause those who look at them to commemorate and love their prototype. We define also that they should be kissed and that they are an object of veneration and honour (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia), which is reserved for Him Who is the subject of our faith and is proper for the divine nature. The veneration accorded to an icon is in effect transmitted to the prototype; he who venerates the icon, venerated in it the reality for which it stands".  
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1171 on: October 22, 2010, 11:05:19 AM »
Alfred, what's stopping you from attending an Orthodox church to find out for yourself what Orthodoxy teaches? What are you afraid of? The truth?


Icons stopped me. I flee idolatry. As I entered, I saw the icons, turned around, and left, never to return.

As you folks failed to prove your claim about icons, my decision not to enter remains in effect.

What I want to do to idols, is not something you would agree with.



The Iconic Image of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ scares you?

Prayer and fasting are in order, then please try again. What is stopping you, from our perspective, is likely a demon.

I think you should read the accounts of the 7th Ecumenical Council in detail. The issue of icons was thoroughly debated with both sides providing ample arguments based on scripture and history. It was a painstaking endeavour.

here is a link to some info.  http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/Ecumenical_Councils.htm#9

The decree of the Council for restoring icons to churches added an important clause which still stands at the foundation of the rationale for using and venerating icons in the Orthodox Church to this very day: "We define that the holy icons, whether in colour, mosaic, or some other material, should be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on the sacred vessels and liturgical vestments, on the walls, furnishings, and in houses and along the roads, namely the icons of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, that of our Lady the Theotokos, those of the venerable angels and those of all saintly people. Whenever these representations are contemplated, they will cause those who look at them to commemorate and love their prototype. We define also that they should be kissed and that they are an object of veneration and honour (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia), which is reserved for Him Who is the subject of our faith and is proper for the divine nature. The veneration accorded to an icon is in effect transmitted to the prototype; he who venerates the icon, venerated in it the reality for which it stands".  

Scared is not how I would describe my reaction to icons or any images of God used in worship.

And you would not be pleased with my plans for them.

 7 For in that day every man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which your own hands have made unto you for a sin. (Isa 31:7 KJV)

The distinction between "honour (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia)" is irrelevant, God forbade every sort of icon of God, specifically ruling out icons made in human similitude which would include the incarnate body of Christ:

lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure (εἰκόνα), the likeness of male or female, (Deu 4:16 LXE)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline LBK

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1172 on: October 22, 2010, 11:08:51 AM »
Proof that you haven't bothered to read St John of Damascus' In Defense of the Holy Images, and proof you have refused to learn anything from the pages and pages of posts defending icons from the iconography thread you started.

You can't handle the Apostolic truth. You keep scurrying away from it.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 11:10:30 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1173 on: October 22, 2010, 11:39:45 AM »
Scared is not how I would describe my reaction to icons or any images of God used in worship.

And you would not be pleased with my plans for them.

In that case, by all means, please stay away from all Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran and Anglican churches, please!  There are already enough cases of vandalism out there.  :police:
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1174 on: October 22, 2010, 12:15:16 PM »
Scared is not how I would describe my reaction to icons or any images of God used in worship.

And you would not be pleased with my plans for them.

In that case, by all means, please stay away from all Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran and Anglican churches, please!  There are already enough cases of vandalism out there.  :police:

Your implied argument is "we aren't alone using images, therefore its ok."

BUT the premise of it is unsound because "two wrongs don't make a right."

Bad behavior does not justify bad behavior.

Even if John of Damascus' argument were sound, and it is not, icons are still to be rejected, because even if it could be shown they do not violate the letter of the law, they  certainly violate its spirit.

An analogy would be a husband who does sexual acts outside of marriage, but not sexual intercourse. Did he commit adultery? Most would say yes...most of us would consider "it wasn't adultery because sexual intercourse didn't occur" to be unsound, while keeping the letter, it violates the spirit of the law.



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1175 on: October 22, 2010, 12:50:05 PM »
Hence this foreknowing was ONLY for our benefit as there never was a time God when wasn't omniscient. Therefore its meant to reveal God is just to us, that He didn't elect anyone who didn't want to be selected...NEVER did He override free will.

To illustrate, suppose I had a fleet of cars and you question my choices, whether those cars are street capable.

I propose they be road tested, so YOU can see they are, I already know why I want them in my fleet, and it isn't for the reasons you would want them in yours. You don't know why I chose them, the only thing this road test will prove, is that they are worthy of being in my fleet according to YOUR standards, and therefore you cannot question my choice of them. I'm not telling you why I chose them, that is none of your business...its only relevant my choice was not unjust, I did no harm choosing them.


Analogy fail, road test of cars irrelevant, this is better analogy to why God would use His foreknowledge for apologetic purposes:

Therefore it would be very important God reveal His Elect will chose to be with Him, of their own free will, when their will is truly free to choose.

It does not follow this indicates merit in those elected, God clearly predicated His selection on His own will (Eph 1:5), and Mercy, and not upon anything "of yourselves", its a "gift" and not earned (Eph 2:8). To illustrate, suppose the loyalty of my family were questioned, that they only live with me because I am generous to them. So I allow them to be tested, I withdraw my generosity, to prove they willingly stay with me, not because of any selfish motive. They are not my family because they are willing, that had nothing to do with the fact they are my family. Rather I allowed the test (=foreknowledge in an alternate reality) to reveal their free will choice when its completely free and unhindered, to YOU.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 12:50:31 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1176 on: October 22, 2010, 01:05:50 PM »
Let us leave it up to God who He predestines. All of this useless rhetoric that you keep dishing out; we know our faith & do not consider yours but try not to judge it either. As St. Paul noted, "For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." (Romans 9:15, Exodus 33:19)...."Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens." (Romans 9:19). Maybe you ought to take the hint?
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1177 on: October 22, 2010, 01:34:00 PM »
To illustrate, suppose the loyalty of my family were questioned, that they only live with me because I am generous to them. So I allow them to be tested, I withdraw my generosity, to prove they willingly stay with me, not because of any selfish motive. They are not my family because they are willing, that had nothing to do with the fact they are my family. Rather I allowed the test (=foreknowledge in an alternate reality) to reveal their free will choice when its completely free and unhindered, to YOU.

If you're not generous to your family, why should they stay with you?  After all, they have to eat too!  :D
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1178 on: October 22, 2010, 01:48:44 PM »
Alfred, would you please provide a link to your church's statement of faith?

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1179 on: October 22, 2010, 02:03:15 PM »
""You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."-Exodus 20:4

“You shall make a mercy seat of pure gold, two and a half cubits long and one and a half cubits wide. “You shall make two cherubim of gold, make them of hammered work at the two ends of the mercy seat." -Exodus 25:17-18

“And you shall make a veil of blue and purple and scarlet yarns and fine twined linen. It shall be made with cherubim skillfully worked into it."-Exodus 26:31

"Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twisted linen and blue and purple and scarlet material; you shall make them with cherubim, the work of a skillful workman."-Exodus 26:1

"Now the Word of the LORD came to Solomon saying, “Concerning this house which you are building, if you will walk in My statutes and execute My ordinances and keep all My commandments by walking in them, then I will carry out My word with you which I spoke to David your father. “I will dwell among the sons of Israel, and will not forsake My people Israel.”
...So Solomon built the house and finished it...
...Also in the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olive wood, each ten cubits high.
Then he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved engravings of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers, inner and outer sanctuaries. 30He overlaid the floor of the house with gold, inner and outer sanctuaries.
...For the entrance of the inner sanctuary he made doors of olive wood, the lintel and five-sided doorposts. 32So he made two doors of olive wood, and he carved on them carvings of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers, and overlaid them with gold; and he spread the gold on the cherubim and on the palm trees." 1 Kings 11:30

"Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?-John 14:9

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."-John 1:14

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."-Colossians 1:14

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see
the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
-2 Corinthians 4:4

See? Prooftext wars are futile. You are not the appointed revelator of a self-interpreting document, you are a fallible man with an impaired spiritual eye just like us.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 02:04:06 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1180 on: October 22, 2010, 03:01:13 PM »

See? Prooftext wars are futile. You are not the appointed revelator of a self-interpreting document, you are a fallible man with an impaired spiritual eye just like us.


Alfred has said over and over that he thinks the Scriptures have a "clear meaning" on their own. He doesn't yet realize that his personal Christian background, the teachers he listens to (or reads), his own thoughts/heart/personal understanding, are interpreting the Scriptures for him. By way of example, the first church I started attending as an adult was protestant and very evangelical -- so of course the doctrines I believed in developed along the lines of praying a prayer of salvation, "once saved, always saved," believers baptism, etc. And when I read the Scriptures, it was with those eyes and understanding, so I saw the "clear meaning" of them to be along these lines. And then I proceeded in my Christian life to start studying the Scriptures on my own, developing personal doctrines that I became convicted of as well (wearing a head covering, not participating in Halloween, homeschooling our kids, church membership is not biblical, etc.). The turning point came when I realized that other people were studying these exact same things in the Scriptures and coming to different conclusions! I was convinced by studying 1 Cor. 11 word-by-word that women should wear head coverings in church services (not just have long hair).  And yet someone I knew did the very same study -- and concluded that long hair is the covering referred to (and others I know studied it and decided we didn't have to wear any kind of covering).  WHAT?! How could this be?  I started to understand that the Scriptures need an interpreter -- and what better interpreter than the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church? 

But until Alfred "gets" that, this discussion will continue on as it has ....

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1181 on: October 22, 2010, 03:39:09 PM »
Very true Thankful. I think it was ST Maximos that stated, Scripture has a veil over it and only the clean at heart can see it's true interpretation.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 03:39:29 PM by Demetrios G. »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1182 on: October 22, 2010, 05:44:40 PM »
Alfred, would you please provide a link to your church's statement of faith?


http://www.gracechurch.org/distinctives/

I disagree on filioque, and eschatology, otherwise what is there I believe also.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 05:48:00 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1183 on: October 22, 2010, 05:50:47 PM »
Forgive me Alfred for saying that you were a Mormon and a JW.   :angel:

Had you posted your Church's "statement of faith" in the first 100 posts of this thread, perhaps some of us would not have wasted our time dealing with you.

Speaking of MegaChurches - did you hear that the Crystal Cathedral declared Bankruptcy on Monday the 18th?

Quote
GARDEN GROVE – Crystal Cathedral Ministries, an Orange County landmark and megachurch founded by television evangelist Robert H. Schuller, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy Monday.

The cathedral owes about about $7.5 million to unsecured creditors. The bankruptcy filing seeks court protection from its creditors.

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1184 on: October 22, 2010, 06:09:26 PM »
Alfred, would you please provide a link to your church's statement of faith?
http://www.gracechurch.org/distinctives/

I disagree on filioque, and eschatology, otherwise what is there I believe also.

Thank you.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

What about the statement's eschatology do you disagree with?

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1185 on: October 22, 2010, 07:38:10 PM »
Alfred, would you please provide a link to your church's statement of faith?
http://www.gracechurch.org/distinctives/

I disagree on filioque, and eschatology, otherwise what is there I believe also.

Thank you.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

What about the statement's eschatology do you disagree with?

Like the Orthodox I believe in the intermediate state and that after death there is forgiveness possible for sins, Protestants including my church generally do not. They believe one's eternal fate begins immediately upon death.

Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe it possible an elect die unsaved, and in hades repent of their unbelief, and live according to God in the spirit, and in the Day of the Lord Jesus, be raised up into life, because they were written in the Lamb's book of life. The texts I base this on are:

Gospel not preached in vain to those who don't repent in this life, in death they recall the preaching and repent:
 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

The Rich man is an example of this:

No child of the devil would respond with love and concern for others, after being denied help:  

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.  
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.  
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.  
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:  
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.  
(Luk 16:24-28 KJV)  

 
Confirming this, no child of the devil calls Abraham their father, and that this was a genuine statement of belief, is confirmed by Abraham's acceptance...Also confirming this, the redeemed in heaven won't feel sorry for children of the devil being punished for their evil...they rather will rejoice. They wouldn't want to cross over unless it was to help someone who wasn't a child of the devil.  

Hence Paul says all Israel will be saved, even those who now, in this life, are enemies of the gospel:

 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
 (Rom 11:26-29 NKJ)

No salvation in Hades, they must wait to be raised up from it, in the day of the LORD Jesus. Here an incestuous church goer, whose sin is so great Paul doubts he is one of God's elect and therefore is not certain if his spirit will be saved...note "spirit may be saved":

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)  

 
That some of God's elect rise up from hades, into life, on judgment day, is negatively stated:  

 
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.  
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.  
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-15 NKJ)  

Therefore some of them were in the book of life and not cast into the lake of fire.  


The scriptures are quite clear on this, but alas, in some areas, Protestants failed to cast off old Catholic premises that prevent them from accepting these texts as written.

As I have stated more than once on this thread, there are no 100% correct churches in Christendom, even the church in the NT during the apostles, required constant correction---hence much of the NT was written correcting it. Once the apostles went to be with the LORD, the church tried to hinder the growth of error by appealing to church tradition...later the consensus of the fathers...It didn't work.

The only remedy for error is to go all the way back to the apostles via sola scriptura without compromise...

One final dispute I have with most if not all of Christendom, they hold to the theory revelation is progressive, and therefore will discount OT texts in favor of NT texts.

I reject that. I believe the Revelation in Genesis is on the same level as that in the book of Revelation. Never will the facts in either contradict, they always complement each other. That also affects my eschatology, unlike most folks, mine is 100% consistent with OT revelation.



Some more texts relevant to eschatology:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(1Pt 3:18-21 KJV) 

 

If Jesus "proclaimed doom" this would not be a "like figure" to the answer of a good conscience which now saves us. Peter cites the "worst group of sinners" to show Christ preached to all the human dead. These "spirits in prison" were the hybrid souls of angel-human offspring (Gen 6:1-7;2 Pt 2:4; Jude 6), the "men of renown" (Gen 6:4f) who schemed to contaminate the Seed of the woman (Gen 3:15) by corrupting his genealogy with angel DNA. This forced God to flood the entire earth to cleanse planet of the abomination. God blamed man for corrupting the image of God for he has dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26), the responsibility to say "no" was theirs. This is similar to Adam being blamed for the Fall, even though Eve initiated it. It was these "men of renown" who built PUMA PUNKU in Bolivia and like wonders in the ancient world. The hieroglyphics do not show UFO aliens or their technology being used to build them because they didn't. The men of renown built them.]

Jesus made His name known to the dead so they could repent. Compare the imagery in:

1Sam 2:4-10; 22:5-7; Psa 16:10-11; 30:3; 49:15; 56:14; 71:19-24; 88:1-18; 107:10-15; 116:3-9; 118:17-18; 142:1-7; Prv 5:22; Isa 4:4; 14:9-10; 24:22; 26:19-21; Lm 3:25; Eze 31:16-18; Hos 13:14; Jon 2:2-6; Mic 7:7-9; Zec 9:11;

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psa 16:10 KJV) 

 

Psa 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. 

 

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 

 

Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. 

 

Zec 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. (cf. Lu 16:24)   

 

Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. 

 

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 

(Jn 5:25-29 KJV) 

 

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)- (Eph 4:7-10 KJV) 

 

Compare: 

5 For the waves of Death compassed me. The floods of Belial assailed me. 

6 The cords of Sheol surrounded me; the snares of Death confronted me. 

7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, yea, I called unto my God; and out of His temple He heard my voice, and my cry did enter into His ears. 

8 Then the earth did shake and quake, the foundations of heaven did tremble; they were shaken, because He was wroth. 

9 Smoke arose up in His nostrils, and fire out of His mouth did devour; coals flamed forth from Him. 

10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and thick darkness was under His feet. 

(2Sam 22:5-10 JPS) 

 

« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:10:26 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1186 on: October 22, 2010, 08:06:59 PM »
Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ...

 :o

This is quite a shocking statement, Alfred -- is this really what you meant?  If so, surely you can understand why we here (and anyone, honestly) would have a hard time taking anything you say seriously.  If it's not, you're welcome to retract.  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:11:11 PM by Thankful »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1187 on: October 22, 2010, 08:17:19 PM »
Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ...

 :o

This is quite a shocking statement, Alfred -- is this really what you meant?  If so, surely you can understand why we here (and anyone, honestly) would have a hard time taking anything you say seriously.  If it's not, you're welcome to retract.  


I do not cite any credentials, or church tradition as my proof.

I cite scripture.

To prove any claim of that nature wrong, you must prove it by scripture.

I cited the texts Christendom REJECTS, which say the gospel is preached to the dead, that after destruction of the flesh, the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, which negatively say those written in the book of life, rise from hades in the Resurrection, into life.

Which none of Christendom believes, but clearly the apostles did, or they wouldn't have written these things.

I approach the data of scripture as a scientist would the evidence in creation, I discount nothing. If any fact doesn't fit a theory, its because the theory is wrong, never are facts wrong.

Scripture is truth, its not the product of private interpretation, its revelation from God who cannot lie or be mistaken...never is any detail of scripture, to be suppressed:

 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

 (2Pe 1:20-1 NKJ)

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:18:22 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1188 on: October 22, 2010, 08:21:21 PM »
Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ...

 :o

This is quite a shocking statement, Alfred -- is this really what you meant?  If so, surely you can understand why we here (and anyone, honestly) would have a hard time taking anything you say seriously.  If it's not, you're welcome to retract.  

 

I do not cite any credentials, or church tradition as my proof.

I cite scripture.

To prove any claim of that nature wrong, you must prove it by scripture.

I cited the texts Christendom REJECTS, which say the gospel is preached to the dead, that after destruction of the flesh, the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, which negatively say those written in the book of life, rise from hades in the Resurrection, into life.

Which none of Christendom believes, but clearly the apostles did, or they wouldn't have written these things.

I approach the data of scripture as a scientist would the evidence in creation, I discount nothing. If any fact doesn't fit a theory, its because the theory is wrong, never are facts wrong.

Scripture is truth, its not the product of private interpretation, its revelation from God who cannot lie or be mistaken...never is any detail of scripture, to be suppressed:

 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

 (2Pe 1:20-1 NKJ)

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

Evasion.  ;)  You didn't address my point (which is the shockingness of the statement that God has revealed something to solely to the apostles and you).

Besides ...

Quote
I cite scripture.

When we do this, we're accused of evasion.  So which is it?  Your brand of apologetics is confusing.  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:25:40 PM by Thankful »

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1189 on: October 22, 2010, 08:22:19 PM »
In other words, you believe your own interpretation of the Scriptures.

Just as you claim the Orthodox do.

Three months to get to that?  Jeepers.  ;D
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Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1190 on: October 22, 2010, 08:28:01 PM »
Alfred, would you please provide a link to your church's statement of faith?
http://www.gracechurch.org/distinctives/

I disagree on filioque, and eschatology, otherwise what is there I believe also.

Thank you.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

What about the statement's eschatology do you disagree with?

Like the Orthodox I believe in the intermediate state and that after death there is forgiveness possible for sins, Protestants including my church generally do not.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1191 on: October 22, 2010, 08:36:28 PM »
Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ...

 :o

This is quite a shocking statement, Alfred -- is this really what you meant?  If so, surely you can understand why we here (and anyone, honestly) would have a hard time taking anything you say seriously.  If it's not, you're welcome to retract.  

 

I do not cite any credentials, or church tradition as my proof.

I cite scripture.

To prove any claim of that nature wrong, you must prove it by scripture.

I cited the texts Christendom REJECTS, which say the gospel is preached to the dead, that after destruction of the flesh, the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, which negatively say those written in the book of life, rise from hades in the Resurrection, into life.

Which none of Christendom believes, but clearly the apostles did, or they wouldn't have written these things.

I approach the data of scripture as a scientist would the evidence in creation, I discount nothing. If any fact doesn't fit a theory, its because the theory is wrong, never are facts wrong.

Scripture is truth, its not the product of private interpretation, its revelation from God who cannot lie or be mistaken...never is any detail of scripture, to be suppressed:

 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

 (2Pe 1:20-1 NKJ)

 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJ)

Evasion.  ;)  You didn't address my point (which is the shockingness of the statement that God has revealed something to solely to the apostles and you).

Besides ...

Quote
I cite scripture.

When we do this, we're accused of evasion.  So which is it?  Your brand of apologetics is confusing.  

I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

I cited the texts the apostles wrote, that all of Christendom rejects...

Show me one Christian denomination that believes those scriptures as they are written.

Then I will have to include them the next time I say, "Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ..."


As for scripture quotes, when they are part of an evasion strategy to change the subject, I usually ignore it, because its just an evasion strategy..

I believe I discussed that just a few posts above this, even gave a Jehovah's Witness example...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:37:32 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1192 on: October 22, 2010, 08:37:07 PM »
Unlike anyone (except the apostles)...

As I have stated more than once on this thread, there are no 100% correct churches in Christendom...

The only remedy for error is to go all the way back to the apostles via sola scriptura without compromise...

From this, I can only conclude that from the time of the Apostles until today, you alone of all men are able to correctly interpret the Scriptures.  That is a remarkable gift!  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:50:37 PM by tuesdayschild »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1193 on: October 22, 2010, 08:41:00 PM »
Unlike anyone (except the apostles)...

As I have stated more than once on this thread, there are no 100% correct churches in Christendom...

The only remedy for error is to go all the way back to the apostles via sola scriptura without compromise...

From this, I can only conclude that, from the time of the Apostles until today, you alone of all men are able to correctly interpret the Scriptures.  That is a remarkable gift!  

Incorrect, never said that at all.

I have no doubt there are others who know these things...in fact, they will emerge soon:

 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: (Rev 7:4 NKJ)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1194 on: October 22, 2010, 08:41:23 PM »
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

Same exact thing and just as shocking.  And prideful, really, if you're honest. You're saying that only you -- of all the millions of Christians since the founding of the Church -- have been able to discover/understand/see this and put it in writing, or talk about it outloud?   ::)

It doesn't even matter what "this" is at this point -- to think this really discredits you.  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:42:15 PM by Thankful »

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1195 on: October 22, 2010, 08:41:55 PM »
Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ...

 :o

This is quite a shocking statement, Alfred -- is this really what you meant?  If so, surely you can understand why we here (and anyone, honestly) would have a hard time taking anything you say seriously.  If it's not, you're welcome to retract.  


I do not cite any credentials, or church tradition as my proof.

I cite scripture.

To prove any claim of that nature wrong, you must prove it by scripture.
Actually, we bear no burden to prove you wrong. You must prove yourself right. By coming to our forum with the mission of making us proselytes to your brand of Christianity, you have taken upon yourself the burden of proving your point of view effectively enough to convince us. As long as you fail to convince us to embrace your faith, you cannot claim any victory for your apologetics. There's no need for us to prove you wrong if you cannot prove yourself right.

BTW, since any old schmo can cite Scripture to prove his twisted interpretation of Scripture, mere citation (i.e., proof texting) of Scripture is not enough to convince us of the truth of your arguments.


I approach the data of scripture as a scientist would the evidence in creation, I discount nothing. If any fact doesn't fit a theory, its because the theory is wrong, never are facts wrong.
Then you must prove to us why we should accept your method of interpreting the Bible, even though we have historically rejected such a scientific approach.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:50:28 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1196 on: October 22, 2010, 08:50:42 PM »
I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

Same exact thing and just as shocking.  And prideful, really, if you're honest. You're saying that only you -- of all the millions of Christians since the founding of the Church -- have been able to discover/understand/see this and put it in writing, or talk about it outloud?   ::)

It doesn't even matter what "this" is at this point -- to think this really discredits you.  

You blather on, as though I should accept your opinion as fact.

I cited these texts, Christendom rejects....now PROVE your point...show me your church doesn't reject them, or any church:

Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe it possible an elect die unsaved, and in hades repent of their unbelief, and live according to God in the spirit, and in the Day of the Lord Jesus, be raised up into life, because they were written in the Lamb's book of life. The texts I base this on are:

Gospel not preached in vain to those who don't repent in this life, in death they recall the preaching and repent:
 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

The Rich man is an example of this:

No child of the devil would respond with love and concern for others, after being denied help: 

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 
(Luk 16:24-28 KJV) 

 
Confirming this, no child of the devil calls Abraham their father, and that this was a genuine statement of belief, is confirmed by Abraham's acceptance...Also confirming this, the redeemed in heaven won't feel sorry for children of the devil being punished for their evil...they rather will rejoice. They wouldn't want to cross over unless it was to help someone who wasn't a child of the devil. 

Hence Paul says all Israel will be saved, even those who now, in this life, are enemies of the gospel:

 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
 (Rom 11:26-29 NKJ)

No salvation in Hades, they must wait to be raised up from it, in the day of the LORD Jesus. Here an incestuous church goer, whose sin is so great Paul doubts he is one of God's elect and therefore is not certain if his spirit will be saved...note "spirit may be saved":

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ) 

 
That some of God's elect rise up from hades, into life, on judgment day, is negatively stated: 

 
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:12-15 NKJ) 

Therefore some of them were in the book of life and not cast into the lake of fire. 

Some more texts relevant to eschatology:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
(1Pt 3:18-21 KJV)

 

If Jesus "proclaimed doom" this would not be a "like figure" to the answer of a good conscience which now saves us. Peter cites the "worst group of sinners" to show Christ preached to all the human dead. These "spirits in prison" were the hybrid souls of angel-human offspring (Gen 6:1-7;2 Pt 2:4; Jude 6), the "men of renown" (Gen 6:4f) who schemed to contaminate the Seed of the woman (Gen 3:15) by corrupting his genealogy with angel DNA. This forced God to flood the entire earth to cleanse planet of the abomination. God blamed man for corrupting the image of God for he has dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26), the responsibility to say "no" was theirs. This is similar to Adam being blamed for the Fall, even though Eve initiated it. It was these "men of renown" who built PUMA PUNKU in Bolivia and like wonders in the ancient world. The hieroglyphics do not show UFO aliens or their technology being used to build them because they didn't. The men of renown built them.]

Jesus made His name known to the dead so they could repent. Compare the imagery in:

1Sam 2:4-10; 22:5-7; Psa 16:10-11; 30:3; 49:15; 56:14; 71:19-24; 88:1-18; 107:10-15; 116:3-9; 118:17-18; 142:1-7; Prv 5:22; Isa 4:4; 14:9-10; 24:22; 26:19-21; Lm 3:25; Eze 31:16-18; Hos 13:14; Jon 2:2-6; Mic 7:7-9; Zec 9:11;

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psa 16:10 KJV)

 

Psa 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

 

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

 

Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

 

Zec 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. (cf. Lu 16:24)   

 

Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

 

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(Jn 5:25-29 KJV)

 

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)- (Eph 4:7-10 KJV)

 

Compare:

5 For the waves of Death compassed me. The floods of Belial assailed me.

6 The cords of Sheol surrounded me; the snares of Death confronted me.

7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, yea, I called unto my God; and out of His temple He heard my voice, and my cry did enter into His ears.

8 Then the earth did shake and quake, the foundations of heaven did tremble; they were shaken, because He was wroth.

9 Smoke arose up in His nostrils, and fire out of His mouth did devour; coals flamed forth from Him.

10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and thick darkness was under His feet.

(2Sam 22:5-10 JPS)

 
The scriptures are quite clear on this, but alas, in some areas, Protestants failed to cast off old Catholic premises that prevent them from accepting these texts as written.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1197 on: October 22, 2010, 08:51:50 PM »
Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ...

 :o

This is quite a shocking statement, Alfred -- is this really what you meant?  If so, surely you can understand why we here (and anyone, honestly) would have a hard time taking anything you say seriously.  If it's not, you're welcome to retract.  


I do not cite any credentials, or church tradition as my proof.

I cite scripture.

To prove any claim of that nature wrong, you must prove it by scripture.
Actually, we bear no burden to prove you wrong. You must prove yourself right. By coming to our forum with the mission of making us proselytes to your brand of Christianity, you have taken upon yourself the burden of proving your point of view effectively enough to convince us. As long as you fail to convince us to embrace your faith, you cannot claim any victory for your apologetics. There's no need for us to prove you wrong if you cannot prove yourself right.

BTW, since any old schmo can cite Scripture to prove his twisted interpretation of Scripture, mere citation (i.e., proof texting) of Scripture is not enough to convince us of the truth of your arguments.


I approach the data of scripture as a scientist would the evidence in creation, I discount nothing. If any fact doesn't fit a theory, its because the theory is wrong, never are facts wrong.
Then you must prove to us why we should accept your method of interpreting the Bible, even though we have historically rejected such a scientific approach.

You can't prove yourself right, you aren't.

If you were, you would gladly do so.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1198 on: October 22, 2010, 08:55:24 PM »
Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ...

 :o

This is quite a shocking statement, Alfred -- is this really what you meant?  If so, surely you can understand why we here (and anyone, honestly) would have a hard time taking anything you say seriously.  If it's not, you're welcome to retract.  


I do not cite any credentials, or church tradition as my proof.

I cite scripture.

To prove any claim of that nature wrong, you must prove it by scripture.
Actually, we bear no burden to prove you wrong. You must prove yourself right. By coming to our forum with the mission of making us proselytes to your brand of Christianity, you have taken upon yourself the burden of proving your point of view effectively enough to convince us. As long as you fail to convince us to embrace your faith, you cannot claim any victory for your apologetics. There's no need for us to prove you wrong if you cannot prove yourself right.

BTW, since any old schmo can cite Scripture to prove his twisted interpretation of Scripture, mere citation (i.e., proof texting) of Scripture is not enough to convince us of the truth of your arguments.


I approach the data of scripture as a scientist would the evidence in creation, I discount nothing. If any fact doesn't fit a theory, its because the theory is wrong, never are facts wrong.
Then you must prove to us why we should accept your method of interpreting the Bible, even though we have historically rejected such a scientific approach.

You can't prove yourself right, you aren't.
That attempt to push the burden of proof onto us, when it is clearly you who bear the burden of proof, is an evasion tactic. You are evading the burden you have taken upon yourself by coming to this forum to convert us. You must convince us, so do so.

If you were, you would gladly do so.
Please don't project such motivations onto me. I act on motivations you are incapable of understanding unless I reveal them to you.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:00:30 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1199 on: October 22, 2010, 08:56:02 PM »
Unlike anyone (except the apostles)...

As I have stated more than once on this thread, there are no 100% correct churches in Christendom...

The only remedy for error is to go all the way back to the apostles via sola scriptura without compromise...

From this, I can only conclude that, from the time of the Apostles until today, you alone of all men are able to correctly interpret the Scriptures.  That is a remarkable gift!  

Incorrect, never said that at all.

I have no doubt there are others who know these things...in fact, they will emerge soon:

 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: (Rev 7:4 NKJ)

Actually, you did say that there are no others.  You even typed it in all caps:

I never said that at all, I meant UNLIKE ALL OF CHRISTENDOM, INCLUDING THE ORTHODOX, I accept what the apostles said.

So, until the other 143,999 make themselves known, you da man! 

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1200 on: October 22, 2010, 08:57:14 PM »
Alfred, would you please provide a link to your church's statement of faith?
http://www.gracechurch.org/distinctives/

I disagree on filioque, and eschatology, otherwise what is there I believe also.

Thank you.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

What about the statement's eschatology do you disagree with?

Like the Orthodox I believe in the intermediate state and that after death there is forgiveness possible for sins, Protestants including my church generally do not.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

You still have not answered this question, Alfred.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1201 on: October 22, 2010, 08:59:56 PM »
Unlike anyone (except the apostles), I believe ...

 :o

This is quite a shocking statement, Alfred -- is this really what you meant?  If so, surely you can understand why we here (and anyone, honestly) would have a hard time taking anything you say seriously.  If it's not, you're welcome to retract.  


I do not cite any credentials, or church tradition as my proof.

I cite scripture.

To prove any claim of that nature wrong, you must prove it by scripture.
Actually, we bear no burden to prove you wrong. You must prove yourself right. By coming to our forum with the mission of making us proselytes to your brand of Christianity, you have taken upon yourself the burden of proving your point of view effectively enough to convince us. As long as you fail to convince us to embrace your faith, you cannot claim any victory for your apologetics. There's no need for us to prove you wrong if you cannot prove yourself right.

BTW, since any old schmo can cite Scripture to prove his twisted interpretation of Scripture, mere citation (i.e., proof texting) of Scripture is not enough to convince us of the truth of your arguments.


I approach the data of scripture as a scientist would the evidence in creation, I discount nothing. If any fact doesn't fit a theory, its because the theory is wrong, never are facts wrong.
Then you must prove to us why we should accept your method of interpreting the Bible, even though we have historically rejected such a scientific approach.

You can't prove yourself right, you aren't.
That attempt to push the burden of proof onto me, when it is clearly you who bear the burden of proof, is an evasion tactic. You are evading the burden you have taken upon yourself by coming to this forum to convert us. You must convince us, so do so.

If you were, you would gladly do so.
Please don't project such motivations onto me. I act on motivations you are incapable of understanding unless I reveal them to you.

Your apologetic is one big evasion.

If you could prove anything you believe correct, wild horses couldn't stop you.

You don't try, because you can't, you aren't correct.

Not regarding anything I brought to the table to discuss, with scripture proofs proving what I say.

Your style is to endlessly cite something else, usually your low opinion of me, as though that saves the day for you.

It doesn't. Critical thinkers reading this thread, are shaking their heads at your evasions and constant ad hominem.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:02:34 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1202 on: October 22, 2010, 09:07:06 PM »
Alfred, would you please provide a link to your church's statement of faith?
http://www.gracechurch.org/distinctives/

I disagree on filioque, and eschatology, otherwise what is there I believe also.

Thank you.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

What about the statement's eschatology do you disagree with?

Like the Orthodox I believe in the intermediate state and that after death there is forgiveness possible for sins, Protestants including my church generally do not.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

You still have not answered this question, Alfred.

I attend when I can.

Now you have  another thing to condemn me for, I don't attend church 100%...gasp! The shock, the horror.

Do you attend every Sunday never missing a service. If so, do you want a medal or something?

Now about those texts of scripture I cited...don't they interest you even a little?


 24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! (Mat 23:24 NKJ)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:09:03 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline LBK

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1203 on: October 22, 2010, 09:08:20 PM »
Quote
Your style is to endless cite something else, usually your low opinion of me, as though that saves the day for you

Absolute rubbish. Many, many posters have countered your arguments head-on with relevant scripture, yet you have steadfastly chosen to ignore them, and evade the issue by going off on another tangent.

Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1204 on: October 22, 2010, 09:14:45 PM »
Quote
Your style is to endless cite something else, usually your low opinion of me, as though that saves the day for you

Absolute rubbish. Many, many posters have countered your arguments head-on with relevant scripture, yet you have steadfastly chosen to ignore them, and evade the issue by going off on another tangent.



Its called Bible hopping when you evade a text by citing other texts.

Jehovah's Witnesses are experts, much better at it than you folks.

You can't cite a text against one I cited, unless you prove it addresses the precise point of the verse I cited.

Otherwise you are evading the point.





Citing other texts, ignoring the points I made, is evasion, not sound refutation.

Its evasion strategy, used by all the cults. You cite a text, they  ignore it, and cite others they believe prove their point.

An analogy: You don't answer a question, with more questions.

To illustrate, if you tell a Jehovah's Witness Jesus is God, and cite John 1:2, that all things were created by Him and therefore He cannot be one of the things made, and he ignores that point and cites his favorite text, that the "My Father is greater than I"

He evaded your point.

ps: As Only God can compare Himself to God, Christ was well aware of who He is. AND as "greater" is not "better," the comparison is one of position, NOT nature so it does not prove Arius' point.

Moreover Christ's meaning is clearly as the Father He is the "Monarch of the Holy Trinity", thus "greater" than the Son positionally, but not "better in nature" as the Jehovah's Witness' argument requires for it to be correct. It is impossible the Father is "better" than the Son as there is only One infinite Substance that is God, and in it the Three Persons subsist equally.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:20:45 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1205 on: October 22, 2010, 09:17:40 PM »
Alfred, would you please provide a link to your church's statement of faith?
http://www.gracechurch.org/distinctives/

I disagree on filioque, and eschatology, otherwise what is there I believe also.

Thank you.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

What about the statement's eschatology do you disagree with?

Like the Orthodox I believe in the intermediate state and that after death there is forgiveness possible for sins, Protestants including my church generally do not.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

You still have not answered this question, Alfred.

I attend when I can.

Now you have  another thing to condemn me for, I don't attend church 100%...gasp! The shock, the horror.

Do you attend every Sunday never missing a service. If so, do you want a medal or something?

Now about those texts of scripture I cited...don't they interest you even a little?


 24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! (Mat 23:24 NKJ)

The texts you cited would interest me IF you obeyed Hebrews 10:25 and attended church faithfully each and every Sunday.  Now I see you are a hypocrite.  How can you expect me to believe you?

And, yes, I would like my medal.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1206 on: October 22, 2010, 09:22:54 PM »
Alfred, would you please provide a link to your church's statement of faith?
http://www.gracechurch.org/distinctives/

I disagree on filioque, and eschatology, otherwise what is there I believe also.

Thank you.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

What about the statement's eschatology do you disagree with?

Like the Orthodox I believe in the intermediate state and that after death there is forgiveness possible for sins, Protestants including my church generally do not.

Is this the church you attend every Sunday?

You still have not answered this question, Alfred.

I attend when I can.

Now you have  another thing to condemn me for, I don't attend church 100%...gasp! The shock, the horror.

Do you attend every Sunday never missing a service. If so, do you want a medal or something?

Now about those texts of scripture I cited...don't they interest you even a little?


 24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! (Mat 23:24 NKJ)

The texts you cited would interest me IF you obeyed Hebrews 10:25 and attended church faithfully each and every Sunday.  Now I see you are a hypocrite.  How can you expect me to believe you?

And, yes, I would like my medal.

Hah Hah! I knew you were fishing for more ad hominem...so did any critical thinkers reading this thread...we are having fun...

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1207 on: October 22, 2010, 09:25:05 PM »
Quote
Your style is to endless cite something else, usually your low opinion of me, as though that saves the day for you

Absolute rubbish. Many, many posters have countered your arguments head-on with relevant scripture, yet you have steadfastly chosen to ignore them, and evade the issue by going off on another tangent.


Not just relevant Scripture, but the Orthodox here have quoted from church fathers, spoken of the interpretations that the church functions with, talked about our tradition, defined terms (since we define many of the relevant terms differently), given examples, asked questions,  and more. It's hard to imagine what Alfred wants -- he just dismisses it all by saying it's not what he wants, then declares himself victorious, when not a one has been converted.    
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:27:46 PM by Thankful »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1208 on: October 22, 2010, 09:27:46 PM »
Quote
Your style is to endless cite something else, usually your low opinion of me, as though that saves the day for you

Absolute rubbish. Many, many posters have countered your arguments head-on with relevant scripture, yet you have steadfastly chosen to ignore them, and evade the issue by going off on another tangent.


Not just relevant Scripture, but the Orthodox here have quoted from church fathers, spoken of the interpretations the church functions with, talked about our tradition, defined terms (since we define many of the relevant terms differently), given examples, asked questions,  and more. It's hard to imagine what Alfred wants -- he just dismisses it all by saying it's not what he wants, then declares himself victorious, when not a one has been converted.    

Prove there exists one sound refutation for anything I have said here.

copy paste my argument, and the precise SOUND refutation of it.

Look up the word sound, the "refutation" must be relevant, material and competent to the point I made.

"SOUND... 5.a. Based on valid reasoning: a sound observation. See Synonyms at  valid. b. Free from logical flaws: sound reasoning. c. Logic. Of or relating to an argument in which all the premises are true and the conclusion follows from the premises. "-American Heritage Dictionary

You folks have NEVER given a sound refutation to any point I have made...if you did, I'd remember, because I enjoy that immensely, actually discussing the point. Its intellectually stimulating when it happens. Ad hominem is boorish by comparison.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:35:41 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1209 on: October 22, 2010, 09:35:20 PM »
Somebody did that earlier today and you dismissed it as evasive.  So why go through 1100+ posts trying to find something to satisfy you? If you show us something from the Scripture, telling us your opinion of what it means, and we show you Scriptures to refute that (because it says something different than your interpretation), why is that evasion?  It's addressing your point directly -- by showing your interpretation could possibly be wrong. 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:37:10 PM by Thankful »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1210 on: October 22, 2010, 09:37:21 PM »
Somebody did that earlier today and you dismissed it as evasive.  So why go through 1100+ posts trying to find something to satisfy you? If you show us something from the Scripture, telling us your opinion of what it means, and we show you Scriptures to refute that (because it says something different than your interpretation), why is that evasion?  It's addressing your point directly -- by showing you could be  wrong in your interpretation.

It was evasive, I proved that. You prove it wasn't. Copy paste it here, and indicate how my point was precisely addressed, use underline, bold or color to indicate the precise words answering my precise point.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:38:50 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Thankful

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1211 on: October 22, 2010, 09:43:07 PM »
Somebody did that earlier today and you dismissed it as evasive.  So why go through 1100+ posts trying to find something to satisfy you? If you show us something from the Scripture, telling us your opinion of what it means, and we show you Scriptures to refute that (because it says something different than your interpretation), why is that evasion?  It's addressing your point directly -- by showing you could be  wrong in your interpretation.

It was evasive, I proved that. You prove it wasn't. Copy paste it here, and indicate how my point was precisely addressed, use underline, bold or color to indicate the precise words answering my precise point.

It's back there a couple of pages ago.  It was today, so you shouldn't have a problem finding it.  It was about baptism and water and the Holy Spirit and being born again (you said being born again didn't mean being baptized, then it was shown via the Scriptures that it does).  I'm not going to repeat what's been told to you -- twice -- knowing you'll just dismiss it again by calling it an evasion.  I'm off to watch a movie with the family; then we'll do family prayers, and kiss an icon or two.  Enjoy your evening, Alfred.  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:44:07 PM by Thankful »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1212 on: October 22, 2010, 09:47:09 PM »
Somebody did that earlier today and you dismissed it as evasive.  So why go through 1100+ posts trying to find something to satisfy you? If you show us something from the Scripture, telling us your opinion of what it means, and we show you Scriptures to refute that (because it says something different than your interpretation), why is that evasion?  It's addressing your point directly -- by showing you could be  wrong in your interpretation.

It was evasive, I proved that. You prove it wasn't. Copy paste it here, and indicate how my point was precisely addressed, use underline, bold or color to indicate the precise words answering my precise point.

It's back there a couple of pages ago.  It was today, so you shouldn't have a problem finding it.  It was about baptism and water and the Holy Spirit and being born again (you said being born again didn't mean being baptized, then it was shown via the Scriptures that it does).  I'm not going to repeat what's been told to you -- twice -- knowing you'll just dismiss it again by calling it an evasion.  I'm off to watch a movie with the family; then we'll do family prayers, and kiss an icon or two.  Enjoy your evening, Alfred.  

You made a claim, but can't prove it. You are wrong. I already proved it was evasive...

As I said, never has any point I made been soundly refuted...there are only endless claims to having done so, never do any of you prove it. Your reply here is just the latest in an endless chain of unproven claims.

I'll make it easy for you...just reply to any point I make..."the refutation of that is in the public library...somewhere!"

Enjoy your movie...I hear Secretariat is quite good, Rush Limbaugh liked it...he's got good taste.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:56:45 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1213 on: October 22, 2010, 09:50:15 PM »
Alfred, what's stopping you from attending an Orthodox church to find out for yourself what Orthodoxy teaches? What are you afraid of? The truth?


Icons stopped me. I flee idolatry. As I entered, I saw the icons, turned around, and left, never to return.

As you folks failed to prove your claim about icons, my decision not to enter remains in effect.

What I want to do to idols, is not something you would agree with.



The Iconic Image of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ scares you?

Prayer and fasting are in order, then please try again. What is stopping you, from our perspective, is likely a demon.

I think you should read the accounts of the 7th Ecumenical Council in detail. The issue of icons was thoroughly debated with both sides providing ample arguments based on scripture and history. It was a painstaking endeavour.

here is a link to some info.  http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/Ecumenical_Councils.htm#9

The decree of the Council for restoring icons to churches added an important clause which still stands at the foundation of the rationale for using and venerating icons in the Orthodox Church to this very day: "We define that the holy icons, whether in colour, mosaic, or some other material, should be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on the sacred vessels and liturgical vestments, on the walls, furnishings, and in houses and along the roads, namely the icons of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, that of our Lady the Theotokos, those of the venerable angels and those of all saintly people. Whenever these representations are contemplated, they will cause those who look at them to commemorate and love their prototype. We define also that they should be kissed and that they are an object of veneration and honour (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia), which is reserved for Him Who is the subject of our faith and is proper for the divine nature. The veneration accorded to an icon is in effect transmitted to the prototype; he who venerates the icon, venerated in it the reality for which it stands".  

Scared is not how I would describe my reaction to icons or any images of God used in worship.

And you would not be pleased with my plans for them.

 7 For in that day every man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which your own hands have made unto you for a sin. (Isa 31:7 KJV)

The distinction between "honour (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia)" is irrelevant, God forbade every sort of icon of God, specifically ruling out icons made in human similitude which would include the incarnate body of Christ:

lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure (εἰκόνα), the likeness of male or female, (Deu 4:16 LXE)

BTW.. I prayed for you tonight in front of a Miraculous Myrrh Streaming Icon of the Mother of God, that you may be healed.

This icon is extremely fragrent and filled the Church with the smell of roses. Oil miraculously comes off of it and is collected at the bottom on balls of cotton. Here is some reading for you about this Icon:  http://www.orthodoxhawaii.org/icons.html

Why do you think some Icons stream fragrant Myrrh? Why are so many people healed of grievous sickness in front of them? Why are so many people brought to Christ after seeing one?

"From thy holy Icon, O Lady Theotokos, blessed myrrh has flowed abundantely.  Thou hast therefore consoled those, in exile, faithful unto thee, and hast enlighten the unbelievers by thy Son's light.  Therefore O Lady, with tears we bow down to thee.  Be merciful to us in the hour of judgment.  Lest having received thy mercy we be punsished as those who have been contempuous of it.  But grant us through thy prayers to bring forth spiritual fruit, and save our souls" -  Troparion to the Iveron Icon, Tone 7.
 
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1214 on: October 22, 2010, 09:57:59 PM »
Alfred, what's stopping you from attending an Orthodox church to find out for yourself what Orthodoxy teaches? What are you afraid of? The truth?


Icons stopped me. I flee idolatry. As I entered, I saw the icons, turned around, and left, never to return.

As you folks failed to prove your claim about icons, my decision not to enter remains in effect.

What I want to do to idols, is not something you would agree with.



The Iconic Image of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ scares you?

Prayer and fasting are in order, then please try again. What is stopping you, from our perspective, is likely a demon.

I think you should read the accounts of the 7th Ecumenical Council in detail. The issue of icons was thoroughly debated with both sides providing ample arguments based on scripture and history. It was a painstaking endeavour.

here is a link to some info.  http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/Ecumenical_Councils.htm#9

The decree of the Council for restoring icons to churches added an important clause which still stands at the foundation of the rationale for using and venerating icons in the Orthodox Church to this very day: "We define that the holy icons, whether in colour, mosaic, or some other material, should be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on the sacred vessels and liturgical vestments, on the walls, furnishings, and in houses and along the roads, namely the icons of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, that of our Lady the Theotokos, those of the venerable angels and those of all saintly people. Whenever these representations are contemplated, they will cause those who look at them to commemorate and love their prototype. We define also that they should be kissed and that they are an object of veneration and honour (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia), which is reserved for Him Who is the subject of our faith and is proper for the divine nature. The veneration accorded to an icon is in effect transmitted to the prototype; he who venerates the icon, venerated in it the reality for which it stands".  

Scared is not how I would describe my reaction to icons or any images of God used in worship.

And you would not be pleased with my plans for them.

 7 For in that day every man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which your own hands have made unto you for a sin. (Isa 31:7 KJV)

The distinction between "honour (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia)" is irrelevant, God forbade every sort of icon of God, specifically ruling out icons made in human similitude which would include the incarnate body of Christ:

lest ye transgress, and make to yourselves a carved image, any kind of figure (εἰκόνα), the likeness of male or female, (Deu 4:16 LXE)

BTW.. I prayed for you tonight in front of a Miraculous Myrrh Streaming Icon of the Mother of God, that you may be healed.

This icon is extremely fragrent and filled the Church with the smell of roses. Oil miraculously comes off of it and is collected at the bottom on balls of cotton. Here is some reading for you about this Icon:  http://www.orthodoxhawaii.org/icons.html

Why do you think some Icons stream fragrant Myrrh? Why are so many people healed of grievous sickness in front of them? Why are so many people brought to Christ after seeing one?

"From thy holy Icon, O Lady Theotokos, blessed myrrh has flowed abundantely.  Thou hast therefore consoled those, in exile, faithful unto thee, and hast enlighten the unbelievers by thy Son's light.  Therefore O Lady, with tears we bow down to thee.  Be merciful to us in the hour of judgment.  Lest having received thy mercy we be punsished as those who have been contempuous of it.  But grant us through thy prayers to bring forth spiritual fruit, and save our souls" -  Troparion to the Iveron Icon, Tone 7.
 

If we could trust signs and wonders, why did Christ say:

 24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Mat 24:24 NKJ)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)