Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 198426 times)

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Offline LBK

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1125 on: October 21, 2010, 08:59:41 PM »
Alfred, what's stopping you from attending an Orthodox church to find out for yourself what Orthodoxy teaches? What are you afraid of?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 09:00:15 PM by LBK »
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1126 on: October 21, 2010, 09:00:25 PM »
Wow, this thread started in high summer - now it's almost Hallowe'en and no one has budged.

And Christmas is just around the corner.

Just thought I'd point that out, in case anyone wants to give up the useless arguing and go Christmas shopping instead. ;)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1127 on: October 21, 2010, 09:05:41 PM »

Irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent. His argument here was sound, save the last, as I exposited.
I assume you're calling me incompetent. I expect an apology.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1128 on: October 21, 2010, 10:28:09 PM »

Irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent. His argument here was sound, save the last, as I exposited.
I assume you're calling me incompetent. I expect an apology.

You assume incorrectly, its your argument that is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent.

No personal insult stated.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1129 on: October 21, 2010, 10:50:13 PM »
Wow, this thread started in high summer - now it's almost Hallowe'en and no one has budged.

And Christmas is just around the corner.

Just thought I'd point that out, in case anyone wants to give up the useless arguing and go Christmas shopping instead. ;)

I'm in...bring on black Friday!  ;D

Offline LBK

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1130 on: October 21, 2010, 10:54:49 PM »
Alfred, what's stopping you from attending an Orthodox church to find out for yourself what Orthodoxy teaches? What are you afraid of?

*bump*
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Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1131 on: October 21, 2010, 10:55:56 PM »
I think he's afraid the Orthodox are really a cult and will brainwash him.  :D
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline biro

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1132 on: October 21, 2010, 11:04:09 PM »
I think he's afraid the Orthodox are really a cult and will brainwash him.  :D


What if he... enjoys it?   ???   :)
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist


Warning: stories have mature content.

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1133 on: October 21, 2010, 11:05:28 PM »
No danger of that, I suspect. ;)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1134 on: October 22, 2010, 12:53:11 AM »
Wow, this thread started in high summer - now it's almost Hallowe'en and no one has budged.

And Christmas is just around the corner.

Just thought I'd point that out, in case anyone wants to give up the useless arguing and go Christmas shopping instead. ;)

"Shopping is inconsistent with a heart of gold."-Neil Young
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline LBK

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1135 on: October 22, 2010, 12:55:06 AM »
Alfred, what's stopping you from attending an Orthodox church to find out for yourself what Orthodoxy teaches? What are you afraid of?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1136 on: October 22, 2010, 02:18:29 AM »
Wow, this thread started in high summer - now it's almost Hallowe'en and no one has budged.

And Christmas is just around the corner.

Just thought I'd point that out, in case anyone wants to give up the useless arguing and go Christmas shopping instead. ;)
I see you like to come visit this thread every so often. What's piquing your desire to keep coming back? ;)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 02:18:45 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1137 on: October 22, 2010, 04:50:51 AM »
I think he's afraid the Orthodox are really a cult and will brainwash him.  :D

must...eat...baklava!  :o

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1138 on: October 22, 2010, 07:57:51 AM »

Irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent. His argument here was sound, save the last, as I exposited.
I assume you're calling me incompetent. I expect an apology.

You assume incorrectly, its your argument that is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent.

No personal insult stated.

What argument? Are you under the false impression that everything is an argument? Here is what I wrote:
Quote
Are you quoting Diodore (Diodorus) as an Orthodox authority? You might have noticed that he is not Saint Diodore. That's because he was declared a heretic for some of his teachings. Some of his work was highly regarded, but this is an example of the Orthodox habit of not trusting in just one person's teachings, but comparing them diligently with what the Church has learned to be true by its adherence to Apostolic teaching. You can research him as easily as I did. Until you named him, he was unknown to me, but five minutes of research showed me that I would have to watch carefully what I might take from his teachings.

The ACC is an excellent reference book, but it cannot be overemphasized that not all early Christian writers are Orthodox.

(I've told you before that I'm not getting into the election/foreknowledge/predestination issue, so no specific comment on the excerpt you quoted   :D )
Alfred, you have asked us to show you who the respected teachers of Orthodoxy are and are not. My point was to show you that you do need to be careful about whom you quote, that's all. Do you want our help or not? Or is it true what others have said that you are a troll, seeking only to disrupt and disturb? It should be clear that I have been doing my best to give you the benefit of the doubt, but when you see an argument where there is none, what do you expect me and the others who read this to believe about you?

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1139 on: October 22, 2010, 08:14:26 AM »

Irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent. His argument here was sound, save the last, as I exposited.
I assume you're calling me incompetent. I expect an apology.

You assume incorrectly, its your argument that is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent.

No personal insult stated.

What argument? Are you under the false impression that everything is an argument? Here is what I wrote:
Quote
Are you quoting Diodore (Diodorus) as an Orthodox authority? You might have noticed that he is not Saint Diodore. That's because he was declared a heretic for some of his teachings. Some of his work was highly regarded, but this is an example of the Orthodox habit of not trusting in just one person's teachings, but comparing them diligently with what the Church has learned to be true by its adherence to Apostolic teaching. You can research him as easily as I did. Until you named him, he was unknown to me, but five minutes of research showed me that I would have to watch carefully what I might take from his teachings.

The ACC is an excellent reference book, but it cannot be overemphasized that not all early Christian writers are Orthodox.

(I've told you before that I'm not getting into the election/foreknowledge/predestination issue, so no specific comment on the excerpt you quoted   :D )
Alfred, you have asked us to show you who the respected teachers of Orthodoxy are and are not. My point was to show you that you do need to be careful about whom you quote, that's all. Do you want our help or not? Or is it true what others have said that you are a troll, seeking only to disrupt and disturb? It should be clear that I have been doing my best to give you the benefit of the doubt, but when you see an argument where there is none, what do you expect me and the others who read this to believe about you?

That's an argument, unsound ad hominem. It wouldn't matter if the man was Hitler, his exegesis is to be judged by its conformity to facts. Truth is by defintion, conformity to fact.

Irrelevant,  immaterial and incompetent is a phrase sometimes heard in court, popularized by a TV sitcom "Perry Mason", that sums up why an argument is to be rejected.

Any claim made about a person or thing, is an argument.

You were not insulted, you are owed no apology.

BUT the truth is owed an apology by most of you, the way you misdirect attention to me, or something you imagine about me, rather than treat the premises of my arguments. IN fact, I saw your claim of a personal foul in the same manner, more misdirection from the truth.

This is not about you, not about me, its about the truth, and if you folks can't handle the truth without getting personally offended, you aren't ready for prime time.

If any dispute this, the responses above this post are an overwhelming mass of irrefutable evidence my witness is true.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:25:14 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline LBK

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1140 on: October 22, 2010, 08:20:16 AM »
Alfred, what's stopping you from attending an Orthodox church to find out for yourself what Orthodoxy teaches? What are you afraid of? The truth?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:21:21 AM by LBK »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1141 on: October 22, 2010, 08:26:26 AM »
Alfred, what's stopping you from attending an Orthodox church to find out for yourself what Orthodoxy teaches? What are you afraid of? The truth?


Icons stopped me. I flee idolatry. As I entered, I saw the icons, turned around, and left, never to return.

As you folks failed to prove your claim about icons, my decision not to enter remains in effect.

What I want to do to idols, is not something you would agree with.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:28:32 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline LBK

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1142 on: October 22, 2010, 08:28:22 AM »
Alfred, what's stopping you from attending an Orthodox church to find out for yourself what Orthodoxy teaches? What are you afraid of? The truth?


Icons stopped me. I flee idolatry.

Just as I thought. You can't handle the truth.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1143 on: October 22, 2010, 08:39:04 AM »
Alfred, what's stopping you from attending an Orthodox church to find out for yourself what Orthodoxy teaches? What are you afraid of? The truth?


Icons stopped me. I flee idolatry.

Just as I thought. You can't handle the truth.

You are quoting a movie, fantasy.

Icons do teach a truth, about those who venerate them.

They testify the prototype is not nearby. If the prototype were present, no icon is needed. Therefore all who venerate icons of Christ are testifying Christ is not indwelling them.

As Christ's indwelling is what makes a person Christian:

 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (Col 1:27 KJV)

Therefore:

All who venerate icons are testifying they are not Christian.


Another truth icons teach, as Christ is God, and as an image of the similitude of God is forbidden to be made---Moses saw God's similitude and still forbade every sort of icon of God's similitude be made (Num 12:8 compare De 4:12ff):

All who venerate icons thereby deny God the Eternal Son Jesus came in the flesh.

The only way an icon of Jesus can be made without violating De 4:12ff is if 1)He is not God; 2)He did not come in human flesh.

For more, see my thread on icons.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29148.msg459378.html#msg459378
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:49:38 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1144 on: October 22, 2010, 08:49:57 AM »

Irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent. His argument here was sound, save the last, as I exposited.
I assume you're calling me incompetent. I expect an apology.

You assume incorrectly, its your argument that is irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent.

No personal insult stated.

What argument? Are you under the false impression that everything is an argument? Here is what I wrote:
Quote
Are you quoting Diodore (Diodorus) as an Orthodox authority? You might have noticed that he is not Saint Diodore. That's because he was declared a heretic for some of his teachings. Some of his work was highly regarded, but this is an example of the Orthodox habit of not trusting in just one person's teachings, but comparing them diligently with what the Church has learned to be true by its adherence to Apostolic teaching. You can research him as easily as I did. Until you named him, he was unknown to me, but five minutes of research showed me that I would have to watch carefully what I might take from his teachings.

The ACC is an excellent reference book, but it cannot be overemphasized that not all early Christian writers are Orthodox.

(I've told you before that I'm not getting into the election/foreknowledge/predestination issue, so no specific comment on the excerpt you quoted   :D )
Alfred, you have asked us to show you who the respected teachers of Orthodoxy are and are not. My point was to show you that you do need to be careful about whom you quote, that's all. Do you want our help or not? Or is it true what others have said that you are a troll, seeking only to disrupt and disturb? It should be clear that I have been doing my best to give you the benefit of the doubt, but when you see an argument where there is none, what do you expect me and the others who read this to believe about you?

That's an argument, unsound ad hominem. It wouldn't matter if the man was Hitler, his exegesis is to be judged by its conformity to facts. Truth is by defintion, conformity to fact.
Read my post again, Alfred. I specifically and very directly made no comment about the excerpt, and did point out that some of Diodore's work is highly regarded, so where is any ad hominem - directed against either you or Diodore?

Why do you ask for sources of our teachings? Giving you direction in this matter is proving to be a waste of time.

Quote
Irrelevant,  immaterial and incompetent is a phrase sometimes heard in court, popularized by a TV sitcom "Perry Mason", that sums up why an argument is to be rejected.

Any claim made about a person or thing, is an argument.

You were not insulted, you are owed no apology.
Thank you for the clarification.

Quote
BUT the truth is owed an apology by most of you, the way you misdirect attention to me, or something you imagine about me, rather than treat the premises of my arguments. IN fact, I saw your claim of a personal foul in the same manner, more misdirection from the truth.
If the "your claim" here is directed to me personally concerning my desire to help you verify your sources, then I am sorry that you feel offended. I trust that you will understand that I want you to be clear about all these things. You usually work hard to provide your sources (though as you have noticed we don't necessarily agree with your interpretations and conclusions about them  :) ), so I'm really trying to help you avoid dubious sources that will not help you in our discussions.

Offline LBK

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1145 on: October 22, 2010, 08:59:00 AM »
Quote
For more, see my thread on icons.
I've not only seen your thread on icons, but I was one of the first to contribute to it, and contributed several times. To whit, you wrote:

Quote
Perhaps this then:

I've heard folks get irrational when you attack their idols, they respond to reasoned argument with reviling etc.

Is that true?

My reply:

Quote
No, Alfred. Most of us try to be dispassionate and objective, using verifiable Orthodox tradition (scripture, the writings of the Fathers, the liturgical deposit of the Church, the resolutions of the Ecumenical Councils), as well as history.

There is nothing new under the sun. Iconoclasm is as old as Christianity itself, and keeps reinventing itself in the form of Calvinist prohibitions of images,  the Jehovah's Witnesses insistence that Christ was executed on a vertical pole, not on a cross, etc etc - yet iconography survives and thrives to this day.


Your reply:

Quote
I did not see reasoned argument in that quote...only a claim.

I would truly enjoy a dispassionate objective, and verifiable Orthodox response, citing the scripture we both love dear, how you suppose it contradicts my argument.

My reply:

Quote
You are the one who has raised the "idolatry" allegation against the Orthodox, by invoking St John of Damascus. If you wish to have a truly objective discussion on this matter, then take the time to read and absorb what St John has written in the defense of icons, as linked to by ialmisry. Here's another link, to an HTML of the same document:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/johndamascus-images.html#PART%20I

If and when you have read St John's work, then we might be able to have a proper discussion on the matter.

Yet, despite repeatedly demanding, on this, and other threads, we supply unquestioned sources of Orthodox doctrine, you continue to refuse to even consider them.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1146 on: October 22, 2010, 09:02:16 AM »
Quote
Nonsense, you have your doctors of Orthodoxy, John of Damascus is one among many.

Indeed St John is a very important saint - a staunch defender of icons, and a great many of his hymns, proclaiming and espousing the Orthodox faith, are a permanent part of the Orthodox liturgical cycle, chanted and sung in every Orthodox church in the world to this day. His iconographic and hymnographic works are stuffed full of scripture and references to the teachings of the Apostles.

You refer to him as a "doctor of Orthodoxy", yet you have not ceased to repudiate and denigrate what he has to say.

You claim to be "primitive Orthodox", yet you thumb your nose at every effort by honest and knowledgeable Orthodox folks who have expressed so much of what the Church teaches, and have even pointed you in directions for you to seek out more, such as attending Orthodox church services.

You claim to be "no novice" at apologetics, yet your intellectual honesty and depth has been shown time and again to be sorely lacking. When your fallacies are exposed, you fall back on the old "I'm a happy martyr" routine. Sorry, son, that won't wash.


Copy paste any argument of mine, that was soundly refuted, here, to prove your claim and disprove this claim:

Not one of my arguments have ever been soundly refuted on this board. They all have been evaded, by various misdirection strategies, ad hominem the usual device.


To disprove this claim of mine, and simultaneously proves yours, copy paste an argument of mine that was soundly refuted by someone here.


ps: To call John of Damascus a "doctor of Orthodoxy" does not imply his treatment is sound, its only a recognition of his status as an theologian in Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:10:37 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline LBK

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1147 on: October 22, 2010, 09:07:42 AM »
Quote
Not one of my arguments have ever been soundly refuted on this board. The all have been evaded, by various misdirection strategies, ad hominem the usual device.

There are none so blind than those who will not see.  ::)

You have repeatedly refused to even acknowledge the wealth of sound Orthodox material so many on this forum have posted, and have chosen to veer off into all sorts of ranting tangents, rather than properly engage in discussion.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1148 on: October 22, 2010, 09:11:45 AM »
Quote
Not one of my arguments have ever been soundly refuted on this board. The all have been evaded, by various misdirection strategies, ad hominem the usual device.

There are none so blind than those who will not see.  ::)

You have repeatedly refused to even acknowledge the wealth of sound Orthodox material so many on this forum have posted, and have chosen to veer off into all sorts of ranting tangents, rather than properly engage in discussion.


Copy paste any argument of mine, that was soundly refuted, here, to prove your claim and disprove this claim:

Not one of my arguments have ever been soundly refuted on this board. They all have been evaded, by various misdirection strategies, ad hominem the usual device.


To disprove this claim of mine, and simultaneously proves yours, copy paste an argument of mine that was soundly refuted by someone here.


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1149 on: October 22, 2010, 09:18:24 AM »
Quote
Ὅτι οὓς προέγνω, καὶ προώρισεν  (Rom 8:29 BYZ)

You are again misinterpreting scripture and giving it the meaning that fills your agenda. These words in our context mean before they were baptized onto Christ and not before they were born. Just like Christ will say I never know you at the judgment. He knew them and their works and said. Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Can you cite an authority in Orthodoxy who interprets Ὅτι οὓς προέγνω, καὶ προώρισεν as "baptized onto Christ".

Its such an odd interpretation, I really doubt that exegesis is "Orthodox."
How do you, who know nothing about Orthodoxy, define Orthodoxy that you are able to use this tactic to dismiss so much of what we say?

The interpretation seems odd, too odd for Orthodoxy,  BUT if you are saying it means precisely that, and others here agree...
Yes, much of Orthodox belief will seem too odd to be true to most who don't understand our love for paradox and divine revelations that don't fit your precise, logical molds. :)

The other thing you need to realize is that we Orthodox don't share the same insatiable attachment to credentials that you demonstrate here. We don't have an official, credentialed spokesperson for the Orthodox faith, such as you seek, since all Orthodox are authorized and blessed to present their faith to others by virtue of their baptism and chrismation. The real measure of whether some belief is Orthodox, then, is consensus, not the proclamations of some "official" authority. [rhetorical question]Is that which we proclaim here on this board the same faith all Orthodox around the world and through all ages proclaim?[/rhetorical question] If, then, you refuse to believe us, why should we think you would believe an "official" Orthodox "authority" if we presented one to you?

Here is just a small point along the same line. We see Protestantism and the Roman Catholic Church as nearly identical in insisting that there must be one single mouth through which Christianity is understood. For Catholics that one mouth belongs to the Pope and to Protestants, the Bible. For some reason they want one sole authority.  

We must not forget that Protestantism is a schism from the Roman Church so I assume this is where they picked this notion up but it is the same heresy, just in two different expressions.

Christianity is not a "Teaching", it is a way ( "Way") of life to be lived. If it was merely a Teaching then we  would all buy the book/manual and memorize it or find a Great Teacher to expound it. But in fact, Christianity is not confined to the rational mind (though it includes it of course). It is a transformative all encompassing  practice that leads us to the Likeness of God and then on the Paradise............  Welcome to Christianity.

And so, how do we know what is authentic? We can look back all through the history of The Church and see what has been universally accepted as Holy Tradition ( as opposed to local cultural traditions). For example, how do we to accept the identity of God in Holy Trinity?
 We can look back at a council of the Church and see it proclaimed and then accepted by all.  If we adhered to Sola Scriptura, we would not find a direct statement about the Trinity, it was deduced by the Church and then Proclaimed.

How then do we know how to understand various passages from scripture? Now we must look back and see if there is a consistent teaching among the Fathers of the Church and or see it expressed in our Services. For example : "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Does that mean Peter is the Rock or his Faith ? Some Fathers said one thing and some another. But over time we see that the large consensus was with Peter's faith as "The Rock" and so that is how it has come down to us today.

No one said this was going to be easy.

The only sound method for identifying authentic Christianity, is to compare whatever claims to be Christian, with the Christianity that is universally recognized as authentic revealed in the New Testament.

No one reading the NT thinks it describes a modern Orthodox service.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:19:46 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline LBK

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1150 on: October 22, 2010, 09:24:02 AM »
From the first page of this thread:

Quote
Yes, but it doesn't say baptizing them makes them born again, if it did, it would be scandalous for Paul to say:

 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, (1Co 1:14 NKJ)

Nor could Peter testify these were born again BEFORE they were baptized:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

 (Act 10:44-1 NKJ)

Thankful was but one respondent to this post of yours:

Quote
John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water. 

One of the verses you posted verifies this (the water aspect):
Titus 3:5 - "... According to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost." The Greek word for washing involves water. According to Strong's Concordance, the word loutron (washing) means "bathing, bath, the act of bathing."

There's also:
Ephesians 5:26-27 - "That he [Christ] might sanctify and cleanse it [the Church] with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Same Greek word (loutron) in this verse.

= = = = = = =
Quote
Nor could Peter testify these were born again BEFORE they were baptized:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
It doesn't say anything there about them being born again before baptism.  It says they received the Holy Spirit and were baptized (which, as we've seen means born again). When Peter saw that their faith was such that they wanted to become Christians, they right away became part of the Church through baptism (i.e., by being "born again").  These verses are actually proving the Orthodox point. 


This is just one example of the exposure and refutation of your fallacies and distortions.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1151 on: October 22, 2010, 09:25:56 AM »
The consensus of the fathers is for a Millennial reign of Christ, yet the Orthodox do not believe.

LOL. Chiliasm is a heresy I studied extensively. I see you have shifted to yet another subject in your desperate struggle to keep this going. It's condemned in the Creed, specifically, but I don't feel like going any further down that rabbit trail right now.

It's sobering to think that, if you held these standards in ancient times, there's no way you would be a Christian. They kicked all the unbaptized out after the Gospel was read. You never would have seen the Eucharist, or heard the Creed. People converted without really knowing what they were getting into. That's because they had faith in a person, Christ. They were not trying to understand a philosophy, as you demonstrate you are interested in.



PS: I mentioned hell, just to see if an "authority" is quoted showing the Orthodox do believe in hell.

One was, proving you all can do it, if you wanted to.

We can, but we are disinclined to do so.



Irrelevant to my point, the Orthodox do NOT follow the consensus of the fathers, they taught the 1000 year reign of Christ, the Orthodox do not heed that consensus.

You want I follow a rule YOU reject?

What law of logic makes that sound?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1152 on: October 22, 2010, 09:26:50 AM »
The only sound method for identifying authentic Christianity, is to compare whatever claims to be Christian, with the Christianity that is universally recognized as authentic revealed in the New Testament.

No one reading the NT thinks it describes a modern Orthodox service.

You obviously haven't read Revelation. Last time I checked, that book was part of the NT.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1153 on: October 22, 2010, 09:32:26 AM »
From the first page of this thread:

Quote
Yes, but it doesn't say baptizing them makes them born again, if it did, it would be scandalous for Paul to say:

 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, (1Co 1:14 NKJ)

Nor could Peter testify these were born again BEFORE they were baptized:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

 (Act 10:44-1 NKJ)

Thankful was but one respondent to this post of yours:

Quote
John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  

One of the verses you posted verifies this (the water aspect):
Titus 3:5 - "... According to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost." The Greek word for washing involves water. According to Strong's Concordance, the word loutron (washing) means "bathing, bath, the act of bathing."

There's also:
Ephesians 5:26-27 - "That he [Christ] might sanctify and cleanse it [the Church] with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Same Greek word (loutron) in this verse.

= = = = = = =
Quote
Nor could Peter testify these were born again BEFORE they were baptized:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
It doesn't say anything there about them being born again before baptism.  It says they received the Holy Spirit and were baptized (which, as we've seen means born again). When Peter saw that their faith was such that they wanted to become Christians, they right away became part of the Church through baptism (i.e., by being "born again").  These verses are actually proving the Orthodox point.  


This is just one example of the exposure and refutation of your fallacies and distortions.

Citing other texts, ignoring the points I made, is evasion, not sound refutation.

Paul would not thank God he didn't baptize them, if baptism were necessary for salvation. That point was NOT "soundly refuted."

Your next, the "washing" is figurative of the work of the Holy Spirit, not referring to literal water at all.

As for the last, receiving the Holy Spirit = born again, to deny that is to Christ's explicit teaching:

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (Joh 3:5-7 KJV)

The text expressly says they received the Holy Spirit "as we", the apostles. Nothing deficient about their receiving the Holy Spirit at all.

Not one argument of mine has ever been soundly refuted.

Keep looking, I dare you.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:37:23 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline LBK

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1154 on: October 22, 2010, 09:36:25 AM »
Quote
Citing other texts, ignoring the points I made, is evasion, not sound refutation.

Citing what other texts, Alfred? Thankful quotes from the NT, no less, in his rebuttal of your post.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1155 on: October 22, 2010, 09:40:28 AM »
Quote
Citing other texts, ignoring the points I made, is evasion, not sound refutation.

Citing what other texts, Alfred? Thankful quotes from the NT, no less, in his rebuttal of your post.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.



Its evasion strategy, used by all the cults. You cite a text, they  ignore it, and cite others they believe prove their point.

An analogy: You don't answer a question, with more questions.

To illustrate, if you tell a Jehovah's Witness Jesus is God, and cite John 1:2, that all things were created by Him and therefore He cannot be one of the things made, and he ignores that point and cites his favorite text, that the "father is greater than I"

He evaded your point.

ps: As Only God can compare Himself to God, Christ was well aware of who He is. AND as "greater" is not "better," the comparison is one of position, NOT nature so it does not prove Arius' point.

Moreover Christ's meaning is clearly as the Father He is the "Monarch of the Holy Trinity", thus "greater" than the Son positionally, but not "better in nature" as the Jehovah's Witness' argument requires for it to be correct. It is impossible the Father is "better" than the Son as there is only One infinite Substance that is God, and in it the Three Persons subsist equally.



« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 09:49:42 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1156 on: October 22, 2010, 09:47:55 AM »
I see. According to Perssonism, Alfred quoting scripture is proclaiming the truth, anyone else quoting scripture to refute Alfred's distortion of Orthodoxy is an evasion strategy.

Ri-i-i-i-ght. Just as black is white, and just as night is day ....
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Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1157 on: October 22, 2010, 09:54:32 AM »
Its evasion strategy, used by all the cults. ....  You don't answer a question, with more questions.

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things."  Matthew 21:24

You don't know your Bible very well, do you, Alfred?

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1158 on: October 22, 2010, 09:54:46 AM »
I see. According to Perssonism, Alfred quoting scripture is proclaiming the truth, anyone else quoting scripture to refute Alfred's distortion of Orthodoxy is an evasion strategy.

Ri-i-i-i-ght. Just as black is white, and just as night is day ....

You evaded my point, illustrating my point.

Thanks
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1159 on: October 22, 2010, 09:59:13 AM »
Quote
You cite a text, they  ignore it, and cite others they believe prove their point.

Perssonism in a nutshell. Couldn't have put it better myself.  :-*
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1160 on: October 22, 2010, 09:59:14 AM »
Its evasion strategy, used by all the cults. ....  You don't answer a question, with more questions.

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things."  Matthew 21:24

You don't know your Bible very well, do you, Alfred?

Christ's masterful crowd control tactics are to be studied, one cannot be a street preacher without learning from the Master how it is done, and especially how to defuse an angry mob.

But that is NOT an example of a direct answer.

They weren't really wanting an answer, they seeking reasons to accuse Him.

NKJ  Luke 19:47 And He was teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people sought to destroy Him, (Luk 19:47 NKJ)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1161 on: October 22, 2010, 10:02:49 AM »
Quote
You cite a text, they  ignore it, and cite others they believe prove their point.

Perssonism in a nutshell. Couldn't have put it better myself.  :-*

As I said, not once has any argument of mine been soundly refuted here.

You gave up looking, just as others did, when challenged to produce one example.

Thanks for proving my claim.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1162 on: October 22, 2010, 10:03:07 AM »
Quote
They weren't really wanting an answer, they were seeking reasons to accuse Him.

Yup. Which is exactly the raison d'etre of Alfred Persson on this forum: He accuses the Orthodox of not being Orthodox, and refuses to listen to anything they have to say in their defence. He's just here to lob his twisted grenades, not to learn about the Apostolic faith.
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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1163 on: October 22, 2010, 10:09:01 AM »
Quote
They weren't really wanting an answer, they were seeking reasons to accuse Him.

Yup. Which is exactly the raison d'etre of Alfred Persson on this forum: He accuses the Orthodox of not being Orthodox, and refuses to listen to anything they have to say in their defence. He's just here to lob his twisted grenades, not to learn about the Apostolic faith.


"If you ask a person what numbers make up twelve, taking care to prohibit him whom you ask from answering twice six, or three times four, or six times two, or four times three, 'for this sort of nonsense will not do for me,' --then obviously, that is your way of putting the question, no one can answer you."

Socrates to Thrasymachus in Plato's The Republic

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1164 on: October 22, 2010, 10:14:13 AM »
Quote
You cite a text, they  ignore it, and cite others they believe prove their point.

Perssonism in a nutshell. Couldn't have put it better myself.  :-*

As I said, not once has any argument of mine been soundly refuted here.

You gave up looking, just as others did, when challenged to produce one example.

Thanks for proving my claim.

The only thing proved is your own intransigence and blindness to reason and correction, and you have spectacularly failed in swaying the Orthodox folks here from their staunch and able defence of Orthodoxy, the faith given to the world by the Apostles. Perssonism is a one-man-band, yet another tiny protestant splinter among thousands of others.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 10:23:05 AM by LBK »
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Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1165 on: October 22, 2010, 10:16:45 AM »
Its evasion strategy, used by all the cults. ....  You don't answer a question, with more questions.

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things."  Matthew 21:24

You don't know your Bible very well, do you, Alfred?

Christ's masterful crowd control tactics are to be studied, one cannot be a street preacher without learning from the Master how it is done, and especially how to defuse an angry mob.

But that is NOT an example of a direct answer.

They weren't really wanting an answer, they seeking reasons to accuse Him.

NKJ  Luke 19:47 And He was teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people sought to destroy Him, (Luk 19:47 NKJ)

You said, "You don't answer a question, with more questions." You even called it a strategy of cultists. And I just proved from Scripture that Our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ answered a question with another question. Clearly, Mr. Seasoned Apologist, you are wrong. Will you publicly admit your error, or will you continue to be evasive?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 10:26:47 AM by tuesdayschild »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1166 on: October 22, 2010, 10:27:58 AM »
Its evasion strategy, used by all the cults. ....  You don't answer a question, with more questions.

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things."  Matthew 21:24

You don't know your Bible very well, do you, Alfred?

Christ's masterful crowd control tactics are to be studied, one cannot be a street preacher without learning from the Master how it is done, and especially how to defuse an angry mob.

But that is NOT an example of a direct answer.

They weren't really wanting an answer, they seeking reasons to accuse Him.

NKJ  Luke 19:47 And He was teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people sought to destroy Him, (Luk 19:47 NKJ)

You said, "You don't answer a question, with more questions."  And I just proved that Jesus answered a question with another question.  Clearly, Mr. Seasoned Apologist, you are wrong.  The question is, will you publicly admit your error?

Incorrect, in context Christ is NOT trying to answer their question...He successfully silenced them, its "masterful crowd control" by a street preacher of the first water.

And He was teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people sought to destroy Him, (Luk 19:47 NKJ)

 23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
 27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
 (Mat 21:23-27 KJV)

In Verse 27 expressly says He won't answer their question therefore you cannot use this as an example of answering a question.

It is an excellent example of mob control and joins that overwhelming mass of irrefutable evidence Christ truly is "The Master."


 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
 (Mat 23:9-10 KJV)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 10:31:45 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1167 on: October 22, 2010, 10:34:28 AM »
Its evasion strategy, used by all the cults. ....  You don't answer a question, with more questions.

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things."  Matthew 21:24

You don't know your Bible very well, do you, Alfred?

Christ's masterful crowd control tactics are to be studied, one cannot be a street preacher without learning from the Master how it is done, and especially how to defuse an angry mob.

But that is NOT an example of a direct answer.

They weren't really wanting an answer, they seeking reasons to accuse Him.

NKJ  Luke 19:47 And He was teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people sought to destroy Him, (Luk 19:47 NKJ)

You said, "You don't answer a question, with more questions."  And I just proved that Jesus answered a question with another question.  Clearly, Mr. Seasoned Apologist, you are wrong.  The question is, will you publicly admit your error?

Incorrect, in context Christ is NOT trying to answer their question...He successfully silenced them, its "masterful crowd control" by a street preacher of the first water.

And He was teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people sought to destroy Him, (Luk 19:47 NKJ)

 23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
 27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
 (Mat 21:23-27 KJV)

In Verse 27 expressly says He won't answer their question therefore you cannot use this as an example of answering a question.

It is an excellent example of mob control.


Jumping from Matthew to Luke to avoid dealing a plain and simple error is evasive, Alfred.  Just admit that you made a mistake.  Everyone makes mistakes, Alfred.  It's okay.  We won't think less of you.

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1168 on: October 22, 2010, 10:37:02 AM »
Its evasion strategy, used by all the cults. ....  You don't answer a question, with more questions.

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things."  Matthew 21:24

You don't know your Bible very well, do you, Alfred?

Christ's masterful crowd control tactics are to be studied, one cannot be a street preacher without learning from the Master how it is done, and especially how to defuse an angry mob.

But that is NOT an example of a direct answer.

They weren't really wanting an answer, they seeking reasons to accuse Him.

NKJ  Luke 19:47 And He was teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people sought to destroy Him, (Luk 19:47 NKJ)

You said, "You don't answer a question, with more questions."  And I just proved that Jesus answered a question with another question.  Clearly, Mr. Seasoned Apologist, you are wrong.  The question is, will you publicly admit your error?

Incorrect, in context Christ is NOT trying to answer their question...He successfully silenced them, its "masterful crowd control" by a street preacher of the first water.

And He was teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people sought to destroy Him, (Luk 19:47 NKJ)

 23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
 27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
 (Mat 21:23-27 KJV)

In Verse 27 expressly says He won't answer their question therefore you cannot use this as an example of answering a question.

It is an excellent example of mob control.


Jumping from Matthew to Luke to avoid dealing a plain and simple error is evasive, Alfred.  Just admit that you made a mistake.  Everyone makes mistakes, Alfred.  It's okay.  We won't think less of you.

Christ refuses to answer their question when they refused to answer His.  Why do you assume that He never intended to give them an answer?  Why do you think Our Lord was being deceptive, Alfred?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 10:38:10 AM by tuesdayschild »

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1169 on: October 22, 2010, 10:42:52 AM »
PetertheAleut - the reason I keep revisiting this thread? Same reason I watch reruns of "Scrubs" even though I've seen every episode:  In a turbulent world, it's comforting to see things that haven't changed! :D
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)