Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 198230 times)

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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1080 on: October 21, 2010, 09:58:10 AM »
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If I doubt the teaching, I want to see it taught in Denominationally accepted literature.

The "denominationally-accepted literature" which is beyond reproach and beyond question or argument is the hymnography of the Orthodox Church. Orthodox iconography is the pictorial equivalent of this. Both sources draw extensively from scripture, far, far more than you realise.

But then, as you have never set foot inside an Orthodox church to hear what is read, said and sung during its cycle of services (and have shown no sign at all that you have any intention to do so), and you condemn icons and their veneration as idolatry, I doubt if you would find even these sources credible or convincing.


Nonsense, you have your doctors of Orthodoxy, John of Damascus is one among many. Popes, etc you can cite as well as the OrthodoxWiki.

You want "plausible deniablility," as do many Catholic apologists. Argue anything under the sun that seems to contradict something I said, and then I waste my time refuting it...only to learn no one actually believes such nonsense.

No that's not it. We do not hold that any Church Father in particular is infallible. We are guided by their consensus, not any of them individually. Because of this, we frown upon prooftexting, which is precisely what you are asking us to do.

You continue to hold up this fallacy: that if we do not offer prooftexts, you don't believe it's truly Orthodox and we're simply keeping plausible deniability. Well, you misunderstand the way we do theology. The problem is not with our answers, rather it is with your expectations.

To gain a feel for the Fathers and their consensus, you must read the Fathers extensively. You must be praying your daily rule, reading scripture, and immersing yourself in the divine services. It helps to have been chrismated.

But you are not willing to even go to one service, much less go to many services so you begin to understand it, which shows your intellectual dishonesty. You don't really want to understand Orthodoxy, even for the sake of finding ways to convert us to your views. It would seem you are here to lob grenades at us, and nothing more.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 10:02:09 AM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1081 on: October 21, 2010, 10:39:19 AM »
Quote
If I doubt the teaching, I want to see it taught in Denominationally accepted literature.

The "denominationally-accepted literature" which is beyond reproach and beyond question or argument is the hymnography of the Orthodox Church. Orthodox iconography is the pictorial equivalent of this. Both sources draw extensively from scripture, far, far more than you realise.

But then, as you have never set foot inside an Orthodox church to hear what is read, said and sung during its cycle of services (and have shown no sign at all that you have any intention to do so), and you condemn icons and their veneration as idolatry, I doubt if you would find even these sources credible or convincing.


Nonsense, you have your doctors of Orthodoxy, John of Damascus is one among many. Popes, etc you can cite as well as the OrthodoxWiki.

You want "plausible deniablility," as do many Catholic apologists. Argue anything under the sun that seems to contradict something I said, and then I waste my time refuting it...only to learn no one actually believes such nonsense.

No that's not it. We do not hold that any Church Father in particular is infallible. We are guided by their consensus, not any of them individually. Because of this, we frown upon prooftexting, which is precisely what you are asking us to do.

You continue to hold up this fallacy: that if we do not offer prooftexts, you don't believe it's truly Orthodox and we're simply keeping plausible deniability. Well, you misunderstand the way we do theology. The problem is not with our answers, rather it is with your expectations.

To gain a feel for the Fathers and their consensus, you must read the Fathers extensively. You must be praying your daily rule, reading scripture, and immersing yourself in the divine services. It helps to have been chrismated.

But you are not willing to even go to one service, much less go to many services so you begin to understand it, which shows your intellectual dishonesty. You don't really want to understand Orthodoxy, even for the sake of finding ways to convert us to your views. It would seem you are here to lob grenades at us, and nothing more.

Nonsense, asking one prove what they say is believed by the Orthodox is not asking for proof texts, a simple statement by an Orthodox authority, someone the Orthodox respect as Orthodox, a pope or theologian, is sufficient.

Frankly, the constant "we believe generally in a consensus blah blah" is to me, just an evasion. Either you state your belief clearly, or you are hiding what you believe.

Christ didn't preach "a general consensus that requires one attend service,"  neither did His apostles or the fathers for that matter.

Perhaps you agree with some here,  they refuse to state what they believe to me because they won't cast their pearls before swine.

But I suspect these have another motive, they are terrified I will dispense with their unscriptural novelties so easily their heads will spin like that little girl in the Exorcist.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 10:44:41 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline LBK

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1082 on: October 21, 2010, 10:52:55 AM »
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Nonsense, you have your doctors of Orthodoxy, John of Damascus is one among many.

Indeed St John is a very important saint - a staunch defender of icons, and a great many of his hymns, proclaiming and espousing the Orthodox faith, are a permanent part of the Orthodox liturgical cycle, chanted and sung in every Orthodox church in the world to this day. His iconographic and hymnographic works are stuffed full of scripture and references to the teachings of the Apostles.

You refer to him as a "doctor of Orthodoxy", yet you have not ceased to repudiate and denigrate what he has to say.

You claim to be "primitive Orthodox", yet you thumb your nose at every effort by honest and knowledgeable Orthodox folks who have expressed so much of what the Church teaches, and have even pointed you in directions for you to seek out more, such as attending Orthodox church services.

You claim to be "no novice" at apologetics, yet your intellectual honesty and depth has been shown time and again to be sorely lacking. When your fallacies are exposed, you fall back on the old "I'm a happy martyr" routine. Sorry, son, that won't wash.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1083 on: October 21, 2010, 10:54:41 AM »
I like the fact you don't have a magisterium ruling on all  things, that certainly is far better than what Catholics do. But it makes those who rail against Protestant diversity of thought somewhat hypocritical...you can hold different opinions, but we can't?
Alfred, you are very right that individual Orthodox Christians do have varying opinions about many things. However, the difference is this: we try to seek consensus with each other, which means consensus with what has always been taught. In the final analysis, we know that we must submit to what the Church (by which we mean, of course, what is generally known as the Orthodox Church - though labelling it as such is a modern necessity) teaches. There will be divergence of opinion, but we don't hold to the idea that it is acceptable to have a variety of churches to meet individual whims. Yes, sometimes there are schisms, but we all find those unfortunate, rather than rejoice that everyone's needs are being met one way or another, as is the general rule in most of Protestantism.

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I asked for Official views meaning what is genuine views, because some of the theories proposed seemed too odd to be Orthodox. As you point out, how would I know. I don't, hence my request for "official views" which means quoting some Orthodox authority. You do have them, John of Damascus, various Popes...so don't deny there are generally accepted authorities you respect ARE Orthodox.
We don't trust ourselves to the teaching of any one person, no matter how well respected. We even admit that many of our greatest saints have their moments of error, and all must be eventually sorted out. Consensus really is the key word. It is the example given to us from the days of the Apostles themselves. Read Acts 15. A problem was brought to the Apostles. They listened attentively to human reasoning, they studied the Scriptures, they prayed. In the letter written to deal with the problem they wrote: "it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us" (v. 28, NKJV). The collective nature of this decision is important. Did everyone at that time agree? Common sense tells us that perfect agreement is very rare. But all did submit to the decision that the Church arrived at, and they did agree that they would act accordingly. Learning to submit is difficult.

Many of us have quoted Holy Scripture, the Fathers, and our hymnography to show you that we who participate here are not having secret meetings late at night in dimly lit rooms to develop novel theories  :). But we have been offended that instead of hearing you say, "That's interesting. I don't see it that way myself, but I understand that you have your reasons" we hear you say, "Unless it's something I personally agree with, it's wrong". I'm really not trying to be harsh, Alfred, but that is how you come across.

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Therefore I don't accept "xyz is what ABC Church believes" just because a poster says they do. If I doubt the teaching, I want to see it taught in Denominationally accepted literature.

That is reasonable. Your objection is not, you should be happy to prove your opinions aren't novel, not a discovery of yours, but are what is generally accepted as correct in Orthodoxy.

While I don't claim to represent any denomination, and some of the things I say ARE a discovery of mine, wherever possible, I am only too happy to cite accepted Protestant authorities,  or admit "its what I believe, don't know if others agree."
I do need to ask, what authorities of ours would you accept? When we do quote respected teachers such as St John of Damascus to whom you just referred, you have brushed off their teachings saying (simplified and paraphrased) "He's wrong - this is MY interpretation of the matter." If your goal is to learn what the Orthodox teach, it is not helpful to argue, though respectful requests for clarification are quite in order.

Once you demonstrate that you are really trying to learn what Orthodox Christianity teaches, and that you show you have grasped some of those concepts, most of us here would be quite happy to explore more with you.

About coming to understanding each other, I noticed in the Epistle reading for today (Colossians 4:2-9) that the Apostle Paul wrote: "Tychicus, a beloved brother, faithful minister, and fellow servant in the Lord, will tell you all the news about me. I am sending him to you for this very purpose, that he may know your circumstances and comfort your hearts...."(NKJV) The Apostle knew that what he had to say in his letter was not necessarily the final word. He needed more information and was willing to seek it out. Certainly an example for all of us.

It would be so much easier to have this conversation with just a table and a couple of cups of coffee between us instead of computer screens and uncountable miles of cyberspace. You would, I'm sure, notice the tone of my voice and my facial expressions that would tell you that I'd rather explain things to you about my faith than to argue about it.

I conclude some of you are afraid of stating your beliefs on any subject clearly because you fear retribution from your fellow religionists.

If you actually believe what Orthodox believe,  what is the consensus belief, then there is no problem finding an Orthodox authority, pope or theologian, who states the belief, precisely.

You folks have said some very peculiar things against the plain meaning of scripture, and when I ask you prove that actually is believed by other Orthodox, you decline with evasions.

I am not a novice at this, I am a seasoned apologist. I know the various debate tactics religionists use to defend their unscriptural novelties...the unwillingness to document a claim is actually taught by their particular denomination is characteristic of sophistry.



« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 10:58:29 AM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1084 on: October 21, 2010, 10:56:35 AM »
Quote
If I doubt the teaching, I want to see it taught in Denominationally accepted literature.

The "denominationally-accepted literature" which is beyond reproach and beyond question or argument is the hymnography of the Orthodox Church. Orthodox iconography is the pictorial equivalent of this. Both sources draw extensively from scripture, far, far more than you realise.

But then, as you have never set foot inside an Orthodox church to hear what is read, said and sung during its cycle of services (and have shown no sign at all that you have any intention to do so), and you condemn icons and their veneration as idolatry, I doubt if you would find even these sources credible or convincing.


Nonsense, you have your doctors of Orthodoxy, John of Damascus is one among many. Popes, etc you can cite as well as the OrthodoxWiki.

You want "plausible deniablility," as do many Catholic apologists. Argue anything under the sun that seems to contradict something I said, and then I waste my time refuting it...only to learn no one actually believes such nonsense.


Been there, done that. I'm not a novice at apologetics...and if you argue crap to me, and want I believe its Orthodox, be ready to prove it is.


Who or what is it that compels you to waste your time here refuting anything?

Nevermind.  You answered my question in replies #1081 and #1083.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 10:58:06 AM by tuesdayschild »

Offline LBK

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1085 on: October 21, 2010, 10:59:14 AM »
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Nonsense, asking one prove what they say is believed by the Orthodox is not asking for proof texts, a simple statement by an Orthodox authority, someone the Orthodox respect as Orthodox, a pope or theologian, is sufficient.

I'll say it again:

What the Orthodox Church teaches and proclaims is most clearly expressed in its liturgical services (Divine Liturgy, Vespers, Matins, Compline, etc), and, in visual form, in its icons. Individual fathers may well contradict each other (even saints are not infallible), but the liturgical material is the distillation, the essence, the core of scripture, patristic writings, of Apostolic teachings, and other accepted sources such as the ecumenical councils. Even the prayers in an Orthodox prayer book are stuffed full of scripture, they are not merely "the words of men".

Hymnography and iconography are the most accessible and clearest means what the whole Orthodox Church espouses and proclaims, irrespective of geographic location or jurisdiction. If one were to spend a year attending as many Orthodox services as possible, keeping one's ears open to what is read, chanted and sung, and one's eyes open to see the actions of clergy and to absorb what is depicted in iconography, one would learn practically all that was necessary about the faith. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

Good enough for you, Alfred?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 11:00:14 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1086 on: October 21, 2010, 11:19:40 AM »
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Ὅτι οὓς προέγνω, καὶ προώρισεν  (Rom 8:29 BYZ)

You are again misinterpreting scripture and giving it the meaning that fills your agenda. These words in our context mean before they were baptized onto Christ and not before they were born. Just like Christ will say I never know you at the judgment. He knew them and their works and said. Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Can you cite an authority in Orthodoxy who interprets Ὅτι οὓς προέγνω, καὶ προώρισεν as "baptized onto Christ".

Its such an odd interpretation, I really doubt that exegesis is "Orthodox."
How do you, who know nothing about Orthodoxy, define Orthodoxy that you are able to use this tactic to dismiss so much of what we say?

The interpretation seems odd, too odd for Orthodoxy,  BUT if you are saying it means precisely that, and others here agree...
Yes, much of Orthodox belief will seem too odd to be true to most who don't understand our love for paradox and divine revelations that don't fit your precise, logical molds. :)

The other thing you need to realize is that we Orthodox don't share the same insatiable attachment to credentials that you demonstrate here. We don't have an official, credentialed spokesperson for the Orthodox faith, such as you seek, since all Orthodox are authorized and blessed to present their faith to others by virtue of their baptism and chrismation. The real measure of whether some belief is Orthodox, then, is consensus, not the proclamations of some "official" authority. [rhetorical question]Is that which we proclaim here on this board the same faith all Orthodox around the world and through all ages proclaim?[/rhetorical question] If, then, you refuse to believe us, why should we think you would believe an "official" Orthodox "authority" if we presented one to you?

Here is just a small point along the same line. We see Protestantism and the Roman Catholic Church as nearly identical in insisting that there must be one single mouth through which Christianity is understood. For Catholics that one mouth belongs to the Pope and to Protestants, the Bible. For some reason they want one sole authority.  

We must not forget that Protestantism is a schism from the Roman Church so I assume this is where they picked this notion up but it is the same heresy, just in two different expressions.

Christianity is not a "Teaching", it is a way ( "Way") of life to be lived. If it was merely a Teaching then we  would all buy the book/manual and memorize it or find a Great Teacher to expound it. But in fact, Christianity is not confined to the rational mind (though it includes it of course). It is a transformative all encompassing  practice that leads us to the Likeness of God and then on the Paradise............  Welcome to Christianity.

And so, how do we know what is authentic? We can look back all through the history of The Church and see what has been universally accepted as Holy Tradition ( as opposed to local cultural traditions). For example, how do we to accept the identity of God in Holy Trinity?
 We can look back at a council of the Church and see it proclaimed and then accepted by all.  If we adhered to Sola Scriptura, we would not find a direct statement about the Trinity, it was deduced by the Church and then Proclaimed.

How then do we know how to understand various passages from scripture? Now we must look back and see if there is a consistent teaching among the Fathers of the Church and or see it expressed in our Services. For example : "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Does that mean Peter is the Rock or his Faith ? Some Fathers said one thing and some another. But over time we see that the large consensus was with Peter's faith as "The Rock" and so that is how it has come down to us today.

No one said this was going to be easy.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 11:49:54 AM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1087 on: October 21, 2010, 11:31:24 AM »
Alfred, just a couple of things:

1) I'm not Orthodox (yet! :D), but I know enough about it to know you are not going to find an Orrhodox "Pope" to give you your "definitive answers" - there is no Orthodox Vatican!

2) Others who've said you can't really understand Orthodoxy services are 100% RIGHT   ON!  The doctrines are in the hymns, the practices and the physical surroundings, not just in dry dusty books. 

I'm Byzantine Catholic, NOT EO - however we have similarities in our liturgies and devotional practices.  And it wasn't till I became a cantor and encountered the many and varied Troparia and Kontakia for each day that I began to understand that.  There's sooooo much you just can't get from any reference materials.

Go to an EO (or even an EC) church, Alfred!  It's the best school there is! :D
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1088 on: October 21, 2010, 11:36:40 AM »
Frankly, the constant "we believe generally in a consensus blah blah" is to me, just an evasion. Either you state your belief clearly, or you are hiding what you believe.
Like I said, it's your expectations that are wrong, not our explanations. You obviously don't understand Eastern thought, that much is clear.

There's no better school than immersion. This is how it has been done for 2000 years. So please, do what the mother of someone I know did when her son converted: Come to Orthodox services for one year. I dare you.

Christ didn't preach "a general consensus that requires one attend service," neither did His apostles or the fathers for that matter.
Please. There was no Church literature back then. Nobody owned their own Bibles. The New Testament did not exist, except in hand-copied letters that were passed from church to church. Where else would you hear the Gospel but in services? Guess what, that's still true today. If you don't come to church, you can't understand Orthodoxy, nor can you be Orthodox.

Christ and the Apostles taught that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth for good reason.

Perhaps you agree with some here,  they refuse to state what they believe to me because they won't cast their pearls before swine.

We're not Muslims; we don't have a concept of taqiyya. We're not misleading you. But as I said a few weeks ago in this thread, you have shown that all you want to do is come into this "house" and smash everything. You're not going to make anyone apostatize to your religion by doing that.

Effective missionaries first immerse themselves in the local people and come to understand what they're dealing with. But you are instead taking the destructive approach. We're not going to expose our beliefs to your venom. If you would cut it out with your prideful bloviations, maybe we could have a conversation, but you're not interested in a conversation.

But I suspect these have another motive, they are terrified I will dispense with their unscriptural novelties so easily their heads will spin like that little girl in the Exorcist.
::) Pride will not get you far with most Orthodox people.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 11:43:58 AM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1089 on: October 21, 2010, 12:23:39 PM »
The Orthodox don't believe there is a hell.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 12:24:32 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1090 on: October 21, 2010, 12:29:14 PM »
He will not answer the basics I have been listing for weeks now & instead keeps citing scripture to find some sort of silver bullet to prove himself right. Again, I will repeat our faith is lived out by knowing Jesus Christ as Lord & savior, the theology of the Nicene Creed (which he allegedly finds as "Biblical"), the 2 great commands to love god & neighbor (Duetronomy 6, Leviticus 19, Matthew 22:36-40, Mark 12 etc..), following the 10 commandments, prayer, fasting, alms giving (Matthew 6:1-18), the need to confess sin (1 John 1, James 5 etc..), the blessed Eucharist (John 6 etc..). You will probably argue the interpertation of these scriptures but will get nowhere doing it. This is our basic Orthodox faith given by Christ & we try to live it.
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1091 on: October 21, 2010, 12:34:07 PM »
The Orthodox don't believe there is a hell.


OH??? "The dead bodies of the ungodly will also be resurrected, but not in heavanly glory, for they will not be fashioned in the likeness of the glorious body of Christ, nor will they see the vision of God promised to believers, which is called the kingdom of God." "Let the wicked be taken away , that he behold not the glory of the Lord." (Isaiah 26:10, LXX). St. Gregory Palamas on redemption.
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1092 on: October 21, 2010, 12:36:30 PM »
The Orthodox don't believe there is a hell.


OH??? "The dead bodies of the ungodly will also be resurrected, but not in heavanly glory, for they will not be fashioned in the likeness of the glorious body of Christ, nor will they see the vision of God promised to believers, which is called the kingdom of God." "Let the wicked be taken away , that he behold not the glory of the Lord." (Isaiah 26:10, LXX). St. Gregory Palamas on redemption.

So St Gregory Palamas is an authority who knows what the Orthodox believe?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1093 on: October 21, 2010, 12:39:18 PM »
The Orthodox don't believe there is a hell.


THE HELL THERE IS!!! >:(

Otherwise, what you just said is a crock of BS, and you know it! So what are you trying to prove by lying about us?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 12:40:51 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1094 on: October 21, 2010, 12:40:55 PM »
The Orthodox don't believe there is a hell.


THE HELL THERE IS!!! >:(

Otherwise, what you just said is a crock of BS, and you know it!

Its my word against yours.

If you said my church didn't believe in hell, I quote it showing it does.

If you said Protestants didn't believe in hell, I could quote numerous authorities proving they do.

You say you can't do that same for Orthodoxy.

Ok..fine, they don't believe in hell.

If they did, they would say so in writing. Their teachers, popes and theologians, would teach it.

As you cannot find them saying it in writing, they don't believe in hell...only those who believe, put their beliefs in writing so their testimony can be used in any forum discussing belief.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 12:45:12 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1095 on: October 21, 2010, 12:41:53 PM »
The Orthodox don't believe there is a hell.



Troll.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1096 on: October 21, 2010, 12:42:14 PM »
The Orthodox don't believe there is a hell.


THE HELL THERE IS!!! >:(

Otherwise, what you just said is a crock of BS, and you know it!

Its my word against yours.
So prove your word.

That said, I agree with bogdan. You've taken to trolling, and you need to knock it off.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 12:43:19 PM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1097 on: October 21, 2010, 12:46:08 PM »
The Orthodox don't believe there is a hell.


THE HELL THERE IS!!! >:(

Otherwise, what you just said is a crock of BS, and you know it!

Its my word against yours.
So prove your word.

That said, I agree with bogdan. You've taken to trolling, and you need to knock it off.

Its my word against yours.

If you said my church didn't believe in hell, I quote it showing it does.

If you said Protestants didn't believe in hell, I could quote numerous authorities proving they do.

You say you can't do that same for Orthodoxy.

Ok..fine, they don't believe in hell.

If they did, they would say so in writing. Their teachers, popes and theologians, would teach it.

As you cannot find them saying it in writing, they don't believe in hell...only those who believe, put their beliefs in writing so their testimony can be used in any forum discussing belief.

The trolls are those who don't put their beliefs in writing...who want to say things, and never be held responsible for what they say.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 12:47:14 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline theistgal

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1098 on: October 21, 2010, 12:56:03 PM »
Wow, you just totally lost whatever shred of credibility you had left with that one, Alfred.  Sad.
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1099 on: October 21, 2010, 12:57:23 PM »
The Orthodox don't believe there is a hell.


THE HELL THERE IS!!! >:(

Otherwise, what you just said is a crock of BS, and you know it!

Its my word against yours.
So prove your word.

That said, I agree with bogdan. You've taken to trolling, and you need to knock it off.

Its my word against yours.

If you said my church didn't believe in hell, I quote it showing it does.

If you said Protestants didn't believe in hell, I could quote numerous authorities proving they do.

You say you can't do that same for Orthodoxy.

Ok..fine, they don't believe in hell.

If they did, they would say so in writing. Their teachers, popes and theologians, would teach it.

As you cannot find them saying it in writing, they don't believe in hell...only those who believe, put their beliefs in writing so their testimony can be used in any forum discussing belief.

The trolls are those who don't put their beliefs in writing...who want to say things, and never be held responsible for what they say.
No, in the Internet terminology being used here, trolling is the act of intentionally posting something provocative with the hope of causing the maximum disruption or argument. You appear to have started doing that with your recent departure from long, detailed posts in favor of curt one-lined accusations. (Technically, one could say that your entire presence on this forum has been nothing but one loooooooong act of trolling, since your posts have always been provocative, provocative enough to get us to engage you in one of the longest threads on this forum.) Just accept the fact that some here refuse to argue our faith with you, since you have shown absolutely no desire to know what we believe but have shown instead only the desire to tear down that which you do not understand. Accept the fact that we refuse to argue our faith with you and stop projecting onto us your speculations as to why.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 01:02:48 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1100 on: October 21, 2010, 12:59:56 PM »
If they did, they would say so in writing. Their teachers, popes and theologians, would teach it.

As you cannot find them saying it in writing, they don't believe in hell...only those who believe, put their beliefs in writing so their testimony can be used in any forum discussing belief.

The trolls are those who don't put their beliefs in writing...who want to say things, and never be held responsible for what they say.

Wow, so many assumptions. Your scholasticism and rationalism have truly come to the fore.

I say again: you do not understand Eastern thought, nor do you understand the culture the Bible came from. It's no wonder you misinterpret it.


those who believe, put their beliefs in writing so their testimony can be used in any forum discussing belief.

Further proof that this is all masturbatory for you.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 01:01:36 PM by bogdan »

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1101 on: October 21, 2010, 01:00:10 PM »
Wow, you just totally lost whatever shred of credibility you had left with that one, Alfred.  Sad.

Incorrect, its you folks who have lost all credibility. If your teachers, theologians, popes, etc...believed in hell, they would have written on the subject.

For you to say you can't quote an authority on subjects, that I have to go through months  of indoctrination at a church to learn what Orthodoxy believes..is not credible.

Your claim you can't quote Orthodox authority on any subject, is not credible.

Every religion has its doctors writing books on all these subjects...to claim you don't, is NOT credible.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 01:05:17 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1102 on: October 21, 2010, 01:05:16 PM »
They have written on the subject.  You may already be familiar with the book they produced - it's called "The Bible", and I believe you may be able to find a copy of it at Barnes & Noble. :laugh:
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1103 on: October 21, 2010, 01:07:22 PM »
Wow, you just totally lost whatever shred of credibility you had left with that one, Alfred.  Sad.

Incorrect, its you folks who have lost all credibility. If your teachers, theologians, popes, etc...believed in hell, they would have written on the subject.

For you to say that doesn't exist, that I have to go through months  of indoctrination at a church to hear it mentioned...is not credible.

Your assertion the Orthodox have no books out there discussing these things, and therefore they cannot be cited if asked to certify what you are saying, is Orthodox, is not credible.

Every religion has its doctors writing books on all these subjects...to claim you don't, is NOT credible.
Then why are you still here arguing with us? We're not here on this forum to convince you of anything, since we are Orthodox Christians on an Orthodox Christian discussion forum to discuss a whole variety of topics that have nothing to do with you, so I'm not sure we should even care whether you find us credible or not. On the contrary, you're here for the sole purpose of convincing us to embrace your point of view, so your credibility is what really matters here. If no one here can deem you credible, you have failed.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 01:08:05 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1104 on: October 21, 2010, 01:07:49 PM »
They have written on the subject.  You may already be familiar with the book they produced - it's called "The Bible", and I believe you may be able to find a copy of it at Barnes & Noble. :laugh:

Its not believable Orthodox teachers have not written anything on these subjects so they can be cited to confirm the odd and peculiar things some of you folks often say against the plain meaning of scripture.

Its not believable. Every religion has its teachers writing books, on the market, who can be quoted, to document xyz is believed by their particular group.



For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1105 on: October 21, 2010, 01:08:30 PM »
Wow, you just totally lost whatever shred of credibility you had left with that one, Alfred.  Sad.

Incorrect, its you folks who have lost all credibility. If your teachers, theologians, popes, etc...believed in hell, they would have written on the subject.

For you to say that doesn't exist, that I have to go through months  of indoctrination at a church to hear it mentioned...is not credible.

Your assertion the Orthodox have no books out there discussing these things, and therefore they cannot be cited if asked to certify what you are saying, is Orthodox, is not credible.

Every religion has its doctors writing books on all these subjects...to claim you don't, is NOT credible.

Did they have books and writings in the first century, aside from the scattered letters of Apostles (which few churches had)? No. People went to church and were "indoctrinated" by the bishop. They had no New Testament to read. They based their beliefs on what their bishop said.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1106 on: October 21, 2010, 01:10:23 PM »
They have written on the subject.  You may already be familiar with the book they produced - it's called "The Bible", and I believe you may be able to find a copy of it at Barnes & Noble. :laugh:

Its not believable Orthodox teachers have not written anything on these subjects so they can be cited to confirm the odd and peculiar things some of you folks often say against the plain meaning of scripture.
Maybe, then, it's your conception of the "plain meaning of Scripture" that's wrong and needs to be corrected.

Its not believable. Every religion has its teachers writing books, on the market, who can be quoted, to document xyz is believed by their particular group.
So don't believe us. I don't care.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1107 on: October 21, 2010, 01:13:07 PM »
So St Gregory Palamas is an authority who knows what the Orthodox believe?
Alfred, think about your wording for a moment. How would you respond to the question, "So who is an authority who knows what Alfred Persson believes?"

As I told you earlier, I wish we were face to face. I'm trying to believe that your question is honest - that you sincerely have never encountered St Gregory Palamas or his writings before.

St Gregory Palamas is indeed a highly regarded theologian, to the point that the Second Sunday of Great Lent is known as the Sunday of St Gregory Palamas.

Follow up to a post since I began this response:
Quote
only those who believe, put their beliefs in writing so their testimony can be used in any forum discussing belief.
Sorry, Alfred. You must be the only person I've encountered who believes that the Internet predates the Orthodox Church  :D.

BTW, what is it about hell that seems to have suddenly caught your fancy?

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1108 on: October 21, 2010, 01:14:35 PM »
Wow, you just totally lost whatever shred of credibility you had left with that one, Alfred.  Sad.

Incorrect, its you folks who have lost all credibility. If your teachers, theologians, popes, etc...believed in hell, they would have written on the subject.

For you to say that doesn't exist, that I have to go through months  of indoctrination at a church to hear it mentioned...is not credible.

Your assertion the Orthodox have no books out there discussing these things, and therefore they cannot be cited if asked to certify what you are saying, is Orthodox, is not credible.

Every religion has its doctors writing books on all these subjects...to claim you don't, is NOT credible.
Then why are you still here arguing with us? We're not here on this forum to convince you of anything, since we are Orthodox Christians on an Orthodox Christian discussion forum to discuss a whole variety of topics that have nothing to do with you, so I'm not sure we should even care whether you find us credible or not. On the contrary, you're here for the sole purpose of convincing us to embrace your point of view, so your credibility is what really matters here. If no one here can deem you credible, you have failed.

I'm here to discuss God's truth, I cite scripture to indicate what that is.

I don't say you must go to my guru, sit at his feet for months, and one day you will magically understand what I believe.

I quote my authority, its written down for all to see for themselves.

I never claimed authority, I cite scripture as the authority for what I say. It wouldn't matter what I am, it only matters if the scripture is cited properly.

You folks want to object to scripture, using whatever argument comes to mind, and not be held responsible....

You want to argue anything under the sun, against scripture, and not be called to account for arguing what the Orthodox do NOT believe.

I'm calling your bluff...you claim Orthodoxy disagrees with me...I say you are wrong, its only you who disagree with me. Prove that wrong if you can...cite an accepted Orthodox teacher on any of the disputes you had against my interpretation of scripture...there are pages of them...

Otherwise I believe THEY agree with me, against you...that's why you won't cite them.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 01:18:05 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1109 on: October 21, 2010, 01:17:00 PM »
They have written on the subject.  You may already be familiar with the book they produced - it's called "The Bible", and I believe you may be able to find a copy of it at Barnes & Noble. :laugh:

Its not believable Orthodox teachers have not written anything on these subjects so they can be cited to confirm the odd and peculiar things some of you folks often say against the plain meaning of scripture.

Its not believable. Every religion has its teachers writing books, on the market, who can be quoted, to document xyz is believed by their particular group.


Did world history begin the day Alfred Persson was born? You realize that all of these religions existed long before literacy was prolific, right? Back when things were passed orally? Most religions still operate that way.

Scholasticism brought in the academic study of religions. Protestantism is that academic study made into the religion itself. But Christ began the Orthodox Church long before that idea took hold. Yet somehow you think your modern standards were in place 2000 years ago, which is quite laughable.

Besides, until about 1500 years ago, written testimony was considered less reliable than oral testimony. It's easy to write out a bunch of rubbish (we've seen a lot of it here in this thread). It's hard to change the beliefs of the entire Church simultaneously.

Which is why heretics have always resorted to writing (i.e., the Gnostic Gospels)—it's the only way they could get their ideas out. Nobody who was a faithful Christian, going to church every day, would believe their nonsense. Yet writing is what Perssonism is based on. It makes me go "hmmmm".

Anybody can write down anything. What's real is the catholic faith, that which is believed in all places, at all times, by all. That is Orthodox Christianity.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1110 on: October 21, 2010, 01:22:09 PM »
They have written on the subject.  You may already be familiar with the book they produced - it's called "The Bible", and I believe you may be able to find a copy of it at Barnes & Noble. :laugh:

Its not believable Orthodox teachers have not written anything on these subjects so they can be cited to confirm the odd and peculiar things some of you folks often say against the plain meaning of scripture.

Its not believable. Every religion has its teachers writing books, on the market, who can be quoted, to document xyz is believed by their particular group.


Did world history begin the day Alfred Persson was born? You realize that all of these religions existed long before literacy was prolific, right? Back when things were passed orally? Most religions still operate that way.

Scholasticism brought in the academic study of religions. Protestantism is that academic study made into the religion itself. But Christ began the Orthodox Church long before that idea took hold. Yet somehow you think your modern standards were in place 2000 years ago, which is quite laughable.

Besides, until about 1500 years ago, written testimony was considered less reliable than oral testimony. It's easy to write out a bunch of rubbish (we've seen a lot of it here in this thread). It's hard to change the beliefs of the entire Church simultaneously.

Which is why heretics have always resorted to writing (i.e., the Gnostic Gospels)—it's the only way they could get their ideas out. Nobody who was a faithful Christian, going to church every day, would believe their nonsense. Yet writing is what Perssonism is based on. It makes me go "hmmmm".

Anybody can write down anything. What's real is the catholic faith, that which is believed in all places, at all times, by all. That is Orthodox Christianity.

Not credible a literate people not discuss their beliefs in writing. Not credible such a large branch of Christendom not have learned doctors writing on the various doctrines of the faith.

It is very believable you folks want to be free to argue anything that pops into mind, against anything I say, without being constrained by Orthodoxy. THAT is why you refuse to document the odd and peculiar arguments you sometimes raise, are actual Orthodox beliefs.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 01:22:54 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1111 on: October 21, 2010, 01:22:42 PM »
I'm calling your bluff...you claim Orthodoxy disagrees with me...I say you are wrong, its only you who disagree with me. Prove that wrong if you can...cite an accepted Orthodox teacher on any of the disputes you had against my interpretation of scripture...there are pages of them...

Otherwise I believe THEY agree with me, against you...that's why you won't cite them.


I have a wide range of patristic quotes about hell literally at hand. Pages 145-150 of this particular book.

But I'm not going to give it to you because you are using this issue to further your drama about Orthodoxy. You don't give a rat's behind about Orthodox views of hell. You are just trying to attack using whatever means you can. This is what you've latched onto today. Tomorrow it'll be something else.

Your intellectual dishonesty shows through at every stage of this meandering foolishness, and we are simply not interested in causing you to despair by saying more than you are able to hear.

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1112 on: October 21, 2010, 01:27:49 PM »
They have written on the subject.  You may already be familiar with the book they produced - it's called "The Bible", and I believe you may be able to find a copy of it at Barnes & Noble. :laugh:

Its not believable Orthodox teachers have not written anything on these subjects so they can be cited to confirm the odd and peculiar things some of you folks often say against the plain meaning of scripture.

Its not believable. Every religion has its teachers writing books, on the market, who can be quoted, to document xyz is believed by their particular group.


Did world history begin the day Alfred Persson was born? You realize that all of these religions existed long before literacy was prolific, right? Back when things were passed orally? Most religions still operate that way.

Scholasticism brought in the academic study of religions. Protestantism is that academic study made into the religion itself. But Christ began the Orthodox Church long before that idea took hold. Yet somehow you think your modern standards were in place 2000 years ago, which is quite laughable.

Besides, until about 1500 years ago, written testimony was considered less reliable than oral testimony. It's easy to write out a bunch of rubbish (we've seen a lot of it here in this thread). It's hard to change the beliefs of the entire Church simultaneously.

Which is why heretics have always resorted to writing (i.e., the Gnostic Gospels)—it's the only way they could get their ideas out. Nobody who was a faithful Christian, going to church every day, would believe their nonsense. Yet writing is what Perssonism is based on. It makes me go "hmmmm".

Anybody can write down anything. What's real is the catholic faith, that which is believed in all places, at all times, by all. That is Orthodox Christianity.

Not credible a literate people not discuss their beliefs in writing. Not credible such a large branch of Christendom not have learned doctors writing on the various doctrines of the faith.

It is very believable you folks want to be free to argue anything that pops into mind, against anything I say, without being constrained by Orthodoxy. THAT is why you refuse to document the odd and peculiar arguments you sometimes raise, are actual Orthodox beliefs.

OK, so your religion is not faithful to the Apostles' methods. Ours is. What is it to you?

Orthodoxy will not be measured against Alfred Persson's standard. Orthodoxy is the standard by which everything else is measured.

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1113 on: October 21, 2010, 01:28:34 PM »
I'm calling your bluff...you claim Orthodoxy disagrees with me...I say you are wrong, its only you who disagree with me. Prove that wrong if you can...cite an accepted Orthodox teacher on any of the disputes you had against my interpretation of scripture...there are pages of them...

Otherwise I believe THEY agree with me, against you...that's why you won't cite them.


I have a wide range of patristic quotes about hell literally at hand. Pages 145-150 of this particular book.

But I'm not going to give it to you because you are using this issue to further your drama about Orthodoxy. You don't give a rat's behind about Orthodox views of hell. You are just trying to attack using whatever means you can. This is what you've latched onto today. Tomorrow it'll be something else.

Your intellectual dishonesty shows through at every stage of this meandering foolishness, and we are simply not interested in causing you to despair by saying more than you are able to hear.

The consensus of the fathers is for a Millennial reign of Christ, yet the Orthodox do not believe.

Therefore citing the fathers proves nothing about Orthodox belief.

AND I recall asking where the fathers said some of the odd and peculiar things you folks have raised against a scripture, and got no response.

PS: I mentioned hell, just to see if an "authority" is quoted showing the Orthodox do believe in hell.

One was, proving you all can do it, if you wanted to.


The Orthodox don't believe there is a hell.


OH??? "The dead bodies of the ungodly will also be resurrected, but not in heavanly glory, for they will not be fashioned in the likeness of the glorious body of Christ, nor will they see the vision of God promised to believers, which is called the kingdom of God." "Let the wicked be taken away , that he behold not the glory of the Lord." (Isaiah 26:10, LXX). St. Gregory Palamas on redemption.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 01:33:10 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1114 on: October 21, 2010, 01:38:41 PM »
The consensus of the fathers is for a Millennial reign of Christ, yet the Orthodox do not believe.

LOL. Chiliasm is a heresy I studied extensively. I see you have shifted to yet another subject in your desperate struggle to keep this going. It's condemned in the Creed, specifically, but I don't feel like going any further down that rabbit trail right now.

It's sobering to think that, if you held these standards in ancient times, there's no way you would be a Christian. They kicked all the unbaptized out after the Gospel was read. You never would have seen the Eucharist, or heard the Creed. People converted without really knowing what they were getting into. That's because they had faith in a person, Christ. They were not trying to understand a philosophy, as you demonstrate you are interested in.



PS: I mentioned hell, just to see if an "authority" is quoted showing the Orthodox do believe in hell.

One was, proving you all can do it, if you wanted to.

We can, but we are disinclined to do so.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 01:39:39 PM by bogdan »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1115 on: October 21, 2010, 02:03:38 PM »
A video clip that sums up the essence of this thread:

"I am not arguing that with you!" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnLDMqPBeKQ

:laugh:
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 02:04:21 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline bogdan

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1116 on: October 21, 2010, 02:39:30 PM »
A video clip that sums up the essence of this thread:

"I am not arguing that with you!" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnLDMqPBeKQ

:laugh:

LOL. Exactly  ;D

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1117 on: October 21, 2010, 02:44:58 PM »
In Rom 8:29 (or Eph 1:4ff), Angels are not subjects of God's foreknowledge or predestination, neither text has angels being conformed to the image of Jesus or adopted as sons.


Ran out of edit time

Because once an angel falls there is no such thing as repentance for them. Predestination and foreknowledge for us is based on sanctification. You are missing the text by only isolating bits and pieces.  Now read; Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified<<<<<<<

Offline Marc1152

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1118 on: October 21, 2010, 03:30:14 PM »
Founder of Alfred's School of Logic.. Once your mind is made up, it's made up !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XCSmRgq18s

 
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1119 on: October 21, 2010, 04:41:15 PM »
I'm here to discuss God's truth, I cite scripture to indicate what that is.

I don't say you must go to my guru, sit at his feet for months, and one day you will magically understand what I believe.

Would this guru happen to be in a Kingdom Hall?  You've been very careful to replace Jehovah with God in your postings; however, I think you gave away your true beliefs.

I quote my authority, its written down for all to see for themselves.

So do those who see my father and leave behind New International Version Bibles, in Modern Greek.   :o

I never claimed authority, I cite scripture as the authority for what I say. It wouldn't matter what I am, it only matters if the scripture is cited properly.

You've lasted longer than most JWs who have visited this forum.  My father can talk to JWs; I have no patience for them.

I'm calling your bluff...you claim Orthodoxy disagrees with me...I say you are wrong, its only you who disagree with me.

I'm All in ... Call

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1120 on: October 21, 2010, 06:21:42 PM »
As you cannot find them saying it in writing, they don't believe in hell...only those who believe, put their beliefs in writing so their testimony can be used in any forum discussing belief.

Father Stephen Freeman's most recent blogpost discusses what the Orthodox really mean by 'to believe the truth,' and it's quite a contrast from your expectations. 

http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/believe-it-or-not/

You should at least appreciate that such a difference exists before you claim that we are hiding our belief.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1121 on: October 21, 2010, 06:55:42 PM »
DIODORE: This text does not take away our free will. It uses the word foreknew before predestined. Now it is clear that “foreknowledge” does not by itself impose any particular kind of behavior. What is said here would be clearer if we started from the end and worked backwards. Whom did God glorify? Those whom he justified. Whom did he predestine? Those whom he foreknew, who were called according to his plan, i.e., who demonstrated that they were worthy to be called by his plan and made conformable to Christ. PAULINE COMMENTARY FROM THE GREEK CHURCH.- Bray, G. L. (1998). Romans. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture NT 6. (235). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.

His regression failed in the end, he went forward rather than continue backward: It should have been "Whom did He foreknow? Those He Elected."

As Paul says, salvation is a gift of God and not based upon anything meritorious in us, God is NOT foreknowing those "who demonstrated that they were worthy.":

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Eph 2:8 KJV)

That election happened BEFORE foreknowledge is clear:

21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, (1Ti 5:21 KJV)

As the angels are neither "foreknown" or "predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son," election is separate from these acts.


And we see that progression here, election came before predestination, which according to Rom 8:29 (προέγνω καὶ προώρισεν) happened the same time as foreknowing:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 (Eph 1:4-5 KJV)

Were chosen "according to the good pleasure of His will," not because they "demonstrated that they were worthy."

Reliance upon tradition has clearly befuddled Orthodoxy so they cannot see the plan of God. Sola scriptura clarifies the entire matter quite easily.

Therefore Orthodox tradition is one of the mountains in God's path to Orthodoxy's heart.

 4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
 (Luk 3:4-6 KJV)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 07:24:51 PM by Alfred Persson »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)

Offline genesisone

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1122 on: October 21, 2010, 07:21:16 PM »
DIODORE: This text does not take away our free will. It uses the word foreknew before predestined. Now it is clear that “foreknowledge” does not by itself impose any particular kind of behavior. What is said here would be clearer if we started from the end and worked backwards. Whom did God glorify? Those whom he justified. Whom did he predestine? Those whom he foreknew, who were called according to his plan, i.e., who demonstrated that they were worthy to be called by his plan and made conformable to Christ. PAULINE COMMENTARY FROM THE GREEK CHURCH.- Bray, G. L. (1998). Romans. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture NT 6. (235). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.

His regression failed in the end, he went forward rather than continue backward: It should have been "Whom did He foreknow? Those He Elected."
Are you quoting Diodore (Diodorus) as an Orthodox authority? You might have noticed that he is not Saint Diodore. That's because he was declared a heretic for some of his teachings. Some of his work was highly regarded, but this is an example of the Orthodox habit of not trusting in just one person's teachings, but comparing them diligently with what the Church has learned to be true by its adherence to Apostolic teaching. You can research him as easily as I did. Until you named him, he was unknown to me, but five minutes of research showed me that I would have to watch carefully what I might take from his teachings.

The ACC is an excellent reference book, but it cannot be overemphasized that not all early Christian writers are Orthodox.

(I've told you before that I'm not getting into the election/foreknowledge/predestination issue, so no specific comment on the excerpt you quoted  :D )

Offline Tzimis

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1123 on: October 21, 2010, 08:52:05 PM »
Here is a reference from St. John Chrysostom:
Quote
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33). St. John Chrysostom continues this thought by saying, "Even if it were possible to figure out this question (of predestination), it would nonetheless be unlawful to desire to do so." For us it is sufficient to know these two clear, understandable, basic precepts: first, God desires that we be saved, for He loves mankind. Second, we can be saved, for we are free. Thus, the will of God and the desire of man make up predestination. God desires, and if man desires also, then he or she is already predestined.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/predestination.aspx

Offline Alfred Persson

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Re: Make God's path straight by being born again
« Reply #1124 on: October 21, 2010, 08:52:49 PM »
DIODORE: This text does not take away our free will. It uses the word foreknew before predestined. Now it is clear that “foreknowledge” does not by itself impose any particular kind of behavior. What is said here would be clearer if we started from the end and worked backwards. Whom did God glorify? Those whom he justified. Whom did he predestine? Those whom he foreknew, who were called according to his plan, i.e., who demonstrated that they were worthy to be called by his plan and made conformable to Christ. PAULINE COMMENTARY FROM THE GREEK CHURCH.- Bray, G. L. (1998). Romans. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture NT 6. (235). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.

His regression failed in the end, he went forward rather than continue backward: It should have been "Whom did He foreknow? Those He Elected."
Are you quoting Diodore (Diodorus) as an Orthodox authority? You might have noticed that he is not Saint Diodore. That's because he was declared a heretic for some of his teachings. Some of his work was highly regarded, but this is an example of the Orthodox habit of not trusting in just one person's teachings, but comparing them diligently with what the Church has learned to be true by its adherence to Apostolic teaching. You can research him as easily as I did. Until you named him, he was unknown to me, but five minutes of research showed me that I would have to watch carefully what I might take from his teachings.

The ACC is an excellent reference book, but it cannot be overemphasized that not all early Christian writers are Orthodox.

(I've told you before that I'm not getting into the election/foreknowledge/predestination issue, so no specific comment on the excerpt you quoted  :D )

Irrelevant, immaterial and incompetent. His argument here was sound, save the last, as I exposited.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)