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Author Topic: Make God's path straight by being born again  (Read 57268 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alfred Persson
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« on: August 23, 2010, 12:40:55 AM »

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
 (Mal 4:5-6 KJV)

10 "For this is he of whom it is written:`Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.' (Mat 11:10 NKJ)
3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:`Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.'" (Mat 3:3 NKJ)

I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

I could care less if you remain Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant or whatever.

Elijah won't care what church organization you prefer, he will demand you remove every obstacle to God in your life.

Make His paths straight, you people.


You can't do that without Christ, without regeneration.

Contrary to what you have heard, being born again is not an intellectual exercise, its a partaking of divine nature, a regeneration that results in a "new creature":

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2Co 5:17 NKJ)

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. (Rom 8:1 NKJ)

So that is what this thread is about, being born again:

"Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.' (Joh 3:7 NKJ)

How does one know when they are born again? When you commune with Christ every day, all day, when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.


I know the orthodox aren't born again, that is proved by icon veneration. There is no need for an image, if the prototype dwells in you.

But lets not discuss icons here, lets discuss the indwelling of the prototype, ingesting Christ for regeneration:

53 I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

 (Joh 6:53-58 NKJ)


Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20 KJV)

Now what do the Orthodox believe about being born again? That baptism causes it? If that were so, how could Paul say:

NKJ  Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
 (Tit 3:5 NKJ)

NKJ  1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, (1Co 1:14 NKJ)

AND why is it apostolic doctrine baptism does not regenerate, only the answer of a good conscience does through the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit:

 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

So the new birth is an act of God's creation, not of sacrament or any ritual of man. Its by God's Word the heavens are made, and by His Spirit His armies:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
(Eph 2:8-10 NKJ)

What say the Orthodox?

« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 12:59:51 AM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2010, 12:52:43 AM »

I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

What say the Orthodox?

Here's what Christ said.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Alfred Persson
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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2010, 01:06:07 AM »

I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

What say the Orthodox?

Here's what Christ said.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

That is incorrect, in Aramaic "petros" is "firstborn" and so in context Jesus is saying "You are firstborn, and upon this specific point of truth you just confessed, I will  build my church."

It had nothing to do with Peter, he was the occasion for Christ to reveal the truth upon which the church is built.

But Peter is the "protos" (Mat 10:2), the "FIRSTBORN" of the confession Jesus is the Christ, hence he is given the keys and is first in all apostolic lists. But we all get the keys when we are born also, the key into heaven is the confession Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Peter is irrelevant to being born again. Rather it is this confession that results in being saved:

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)

 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:9-11 NKJ)

When you obey apostolic doctrine and confess Jesus publicly, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, then God's Spirit comes falls upon you, regenerating your soul, so that it now is a "new creature," and you thereafter walk by God's Holy Spirit:

 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
 (Rom 8:8-9 NKJ)

It doesn't matter what church you belong to, if your heart is unregenerate.

 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
 
(Joh 3:7-8 NKJ)


« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 01:12:13 AM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2010, 01:06:54 AM »

Christ said, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19
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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2010, 01:14:05 AM »

Christ said, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19

Yes, but it doesn't say baptizing them makes them born again, if it did, it would be scandalous for Paul to say:

 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, (1Co 1:14 NKJ)

Nor could Peter testify these were born again BEFORE they were baptized:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

 (Act 10:44-1 NKJ)
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2010, 01:32:43 AM »

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
 (Mal 4:5-6 KJV)

10 "For this is he of whom it is written:`Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.' (Mat 11:10 NKJ)
3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:`Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.'" (Mat 3:3 NKJ)

I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

I could care less if you remain Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant or whatever.

Elijah won't care what church organization you prefer, he will demand you remove every obstacle to God in your life.

Make His paths straight, you people.


You can't do that without Christ, without regeneration.

Contrary to what you have heard, being born again is not an intellectual exercise, its a partaking of divine nature, a regeneration that results in a "new creature":

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. (2Co 5:17 NKJ)

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. (Rom 8:1 NKJ)

So that is what this thread is about, being born again:

"Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.' (Joh 3:7 NKJ)

How does one know when they are born again? When you commune with Christ every day, all day, when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.


I know the orthodox aren't born again, that is proved by icon veneration. There is no need for an image, if the prototype dwells in you.

But lets not discuss icons here, lets discuss the indwelling of the prototype, ingesting Christ for regeneration:

53 I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

 (Joh 6:53-58 NKJ)


Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev 3:20 KJV)

Now what do the Orthodox believe about being born again? That baptism causes it? If that were so, how could Paul say:

NKJ  Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
 (Tit 3:5 NKJ)

NKJ  1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, (1Co 1:14 NKJ)

AND why is it apostolic doctrine baptism does not regenerate, only the answer of a good conscience does through the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit:

 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

So the new birth is an act of God's creation, not of sacrament or any ritual of man. Its by God's Word the heavens are made, and by His Spirit His armies:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
(Eph 2:8-10 NKJ)

What say the Orthodox?


Still attacking the straw men, Alfred?
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2010, 01:36:33 AM »

John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  Wink

One of the verses you posted verifies this (the water aspect):
Titus 3:5 - "... According to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost." The Greek word for washing involves water. According to Strong's Concordance, the word loutron (washing) means "bathing, bath, the act of bathing."

There's also:
Ephesians 5:26-27 - "That he [Christ] might sanctify and cleanse it [the Church] with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Same Greek word (loutron) in this verse.

= = = = = = =

Quote
Nor could Peter testify these were born again BEFORE they were baptized:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

It doesn't say anything there about them being born again before baptism. Huh It says they received the Holy Spirit and were baptized (which, as we've seen means born again). When Peter saw that their faith was such that they wanted to become Christians, they right away became part of the Church through baptism (i.e., by being "born again").  These verses are actually proving the Orthodox point.  
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 02:06:44 AM by Thankful » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2010, 01:50:40 AM »

John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, said you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  Wink
Yes.  St. John's Gospel is, in addition to being the most theologically perceptive of the four Gospels, also the most liturgically oriented.  What that means is that one must understand early Christian liturgy to interpret St. John's Gospel correctly.  Knowing this, St. John's reference to water and the Spirit can only mean baptism and chrismation.
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2010, 02:27:20 AM »

Alfred, can I be frank? Your posts here in these threads that you start are actually showing one of the main reasons why our family became part of the ancient Orthodox church this year. You live a tiring faith -- and I say that because I used to live it, too. You are one man with your singular ideas, and there are lots of individuals out there with their singular ("divine revelation of me") ideas. There are so many things one can look at to try and determine, "What do *I* believe about these things? What is my personal conviction in this area?" And some believe one thing about certain matters of the faith while others believe the complete opposite thing about those same exact matters of the faith. We could spend our whole lives working through all the various issues/doctrines/convictions. It's exhausting, spiritually and mentally.

We got to the point of asking ourselves, "Hasn't this been figured out, yet? It's been 2000 years afterall." Does God really want us to spend our lives deciding what we personally believe He meant when He said such-and-such, and then trying to convince others of the same? It was really sad, actually (let alone tiring), to live this way. Sad that the extent of the faith was using my mind to decide what I personally believed from issue to issue and trying my best to implement/walk in them (all the while hoping I was right in my interpretation).

What a relief to learn that God meant for the CHURCH to do all that -- and that they did all that in the first years of Christianity. God kept His Church strong, He developed it by His Holy Spirit (including, but not limited to, canonizing the Bible), and He is still with us to the end of the age. Now, instead of trying to figure it all out ourselves (according to the "divine revelation of me"), we can just rest and enter into IT.

During Divine Liturgy this morning I realized how, well, DIVINE it was that this was something God did in the Church 2000 years ago, and that we can just become a part of it -- AND that it's a "river" we cannot stop or change the course of or cause to dry up or any such thing. It's a glorious thing to be a part of. We were baptized in January and remain so grateful for what God has made available to sick and hurting humanity through the ark of salvation, the Church. Glory to God for all things.

I hope you will find Him, Alfred. He's where He said He would be -- in the Church He founded.
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2010, 08:44:34 AM »

I will dare to agree with the general exhortation of our concerned poster in the sense of following Christ in the cost of discipleship is what all Christians are called to do.
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2010, 09:09:53 AM »

Alfred, can I be frank? ...

I hope you will find Him, Alfred. He's where He said He would be -- in the Church He founded.
Alfred, I agree with Thankful. Unfortunately, all I'm hearing from you is a "clanging cymbal". The judgemental attitude you show with statements such as
Quote
I know the orthodox aren't born again, that is proved by icon veneration
contradicts the point you think you are making.

May God direct you through your studies and your zeal (both of which are commendable) to a truly Apostolic and Catholic and Orthodox faith in our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2010, 10:28:53 AM »

I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

What say the Orthodox?

Here's what Christ said.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

That is incorrect, in Aramaic "petros" is "firstborn" and so in context Jesus is saying "You are firstborn, and upon this specific point of truth you just confessed, I will  build my church."

It had nothing to do with Peter, he was the occasion for Christ to reveal the truth upon which the church is built.

But Peter is the "protos" (Mat 10:2), the "FIRSTBORN" of the confession Jesus is the Christ, hence he is given the keys and is first in all apostolic lists. But we all get the keys when we are born also, the key into heaven is the confession Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

My point was that you believe that everyone everywhere is wrong, which goes against the words of Christ Himself. My point had nothing to do with Peter and everything to do with the Church that he founded, which, according to the book of Acts, Peter played a prominent role in establishing. This is not a defence of the Papacy, it's a defence of the Church established on the day of Penetecost over which nothing can or will prevail. If you believe everyone is wrong, you believe that Church was overcome.

Quote
Peter is irrelevant to being born again. Rather it is this confession that results in being saved:

1Pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Col 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Read Romans 6. Please forgive me for not posting the entire chapter.

Quote
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)

 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:9-11 NKJ)

If you truly believed in Him, then you would have faith in His ability to lead, guide, and inspire, and protect His Church.

Quote
When you obey apostolic doctrine and confess Jesus publicly, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, then God's Spirit comes falls upon you, regenerating your soul, so that it now is a "new creature," and you thereafter walk by God's Holy Spirit:

Not according to the NT. No one in the NT brings themselves into Christ. Christ gave the Holy Spirit to the apostles. They baptized people, gave the gift of the Holy Spirit, healed people, etc. They ordained bishops, presbyters, and deacons in local churches and gave them the authority to do the same. Even when Paul had his experience on the road to damascus, he still had to be baptized into the Church. Even Apollos who recieved John's baptism of repentence and went around preaching Jesus as the Christ still had to be baptized into the Church.

Quote
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
 (Rom 8:8-9 NKJ)

It doesn't matter what church you belong to, if your heart is unregenerate.

I disagree. Christ said that the servant who knew the masters will and did not do it would receive more stripes than the one who didn't. But if you were to exchange the word "unregenerate" for "unrepentant", then I would agree that daily repentance and conversion is necessary and only condemnation can come without it.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2010, 12:32:27 PM »

John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  Wink

One of the verses you posted verifies this (the water aspect):
Titus 3:5 - "... According to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost." The Greek word for washing involves water. According to Strong's Concordance, the word loutron (washing) means "bathing, bath, the act of bathing."

There's also:
Ephesians 5:26-27 - "That he [Christ] might sanctify and cleanse it [the Church] with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Same Greek word (loutron) in this verse.

= = = = = = =

Quote
Nor could Peter testify these were born again BEFORE they were baptized:

 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

It doesn't say anything there about them being born again before baptism. Huh It says they received the Holy Spirit and were baptized (which, as we've seen means born again). When Peter saw that their faith was such that they wanted to become Christians, they right away became part of the Church through baptism (i.e., by being "born again").  These verses are actually proving the Orthodox point.  

47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

You don't suggest Peter wasn't born again, do you? That happens when you receive the Holy Spirit.

As for "born of water" that figuratively refers to the role water plays in cleansing in the LAW, and by extension, when we are baptized, cleansed. BUT Peter is very clear, the water does not save, the cleansing does not save, its the answer of a good conscience that saves:

NKJ  1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

KJV  1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

NET  1 Peter 3:21 And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you– not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God– through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

To be "born of water" is to be born of repentance, you repent, then are cleansed by water, as John the Baptist did:

 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. (Mat 3:6 NKJ)

Born of water = repentance & cleansing; born of Spirit = regeneration.

Don't confuse them, that would be a generalization fallacy.

You should have been able to deduce that from the expression "the washing of water by the word", obviously figurative, words do not literally wash anyone. The idea is the Word of God has special power to uncover sin in one's life, and once a person is made aware of their sin, they repent and are cleansed from it = washing of water by the word.
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« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2010, 12:42:36 PM »

Alfred, can I be frank? Your posts here in these threads that you start are actually showing one of the main reasons why our family became part of the ancient Orthodox church this year. You live a tiring faith -- and I say that because I used to live it, too. You are one man with your singular ideas, and there are lots of individuals out there with their singular ("divine revelation of me") ideas. There are so many things one can look at to try and determine, "What do *I* believe about these things? What is my personal conviction in this area?" And some believe one thing about certain matters of the faith while others believe the complete opposite thing about those same exact matters of the faith. We could spend our whole lives working through all the various issues/doctrines/convictions. It's exhausting, spiritually and mentally.

We got to the point of asking ourselves, "Hasn't this been figured out, yet? It's been 2000 years afterall." Does God really want us to spend our lives deciding what we personally believe He meant when He said such-and-such, and then trying to convince others of the same? It was really sad, actually (let alone tiring), to live this way. Sad that the extent of the faith was using my mind to decide what I personally believed from issue to issue and trying my best to implement/walk in them (all the while hoping I was right in my interpretation).

What a relief to learn that God meant for the CHURCH to do all that -- and that they did all that in the first years of Christianity. God kept His Church strong, He developed it by His Holy Spirit (including, but not limited to, canonizing the Bible), and He is still with us to the end of the age. Now, instead of trying to figure it all out ourselves (according to the "divine revelation of me"), we can just rest and enter into IT.

During Divine Liturgy this morning I realized how, well, DIVINE it was that this was something God did in the Church 2000 years ago, and that we can just become a part of it -- AND that it's a "river" we cannot stop or change the course of or cause to dry up or any such thing. It's a glorious thing to be a part of. We were baptized in January and remain so grateful for what God has made available to sick and hurting humanity through the ark of salvation, the Church. Glory to God for all things.

I hope you will find Him, Alfred. He's where He said He would be -- in the Church He founded.


You are projecting, my faith is not tiring at all. When the Holy Spirit fell upon me, as a warm wind, like oil on my head and face, my soul was regenerated into a new creature, over 30 years ago.

He never leaves me or forsakes me.


Moreover your reading comprehension needs improvement. God revealed to Peter Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
 (Mat 16:16-17 NKJ)

Or do you quibble with Christ?

Try reading what I wrote again, without assuming you know what I said before hand, it might help.


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« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2010, 12:53:57 PM »

John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, said you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  Wink
Yes.  St. John's Gospel is, in addition to being the most theologically perceptive of the four Gospels, also the most liturgically oriented.  What that means is that one must understand early Christian liturgy to interpret St. John's Gospel correctly.  Knowing this, St. John's reference to water and the Spirit can only mean baptism and chrismation.

Frankly, your ego is astounding, you know which Gospel writers weren't theologically perceptive?

If we must talk about perception, Christ isn't about liturgy:

 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
 26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
 (Mat 23:25-26 NKJ)

The Eucharist is not ritual, it teaches ingestion of Christ (cf John c. 6) entire, who He is, and all He taught, its not a ritual, its another way of saying:

 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 (Joh 3:5-7 NKJ)

You repent, believe Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God, confess that publicly, and selling all you own...to follow Him, that is ingesting Christ.


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« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2010, 01:01:33 PM »

I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

What say the Orthodox?

Here's what Christ said.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

That is incorrect, in Aramaic "petros" is "firstborn" and so in context Jesus is saying "You are firstborn, and upon this specific point of truth you just confessed, I will  build my church."

It had nothing to do with Peter, he was the occasion for Christ to reveal the truth upon which the church is built.

But Peter is the "protos" (Mat 10:2), the "FIRSTBORN" of the confession Jesus is the Christ, hence he is given the keys and is first in all apostolic lists. But we all get the keys when we are born also, the key into heaven is the confession Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

My point was that you believe that everyone everywhere is wrong, which goes against the words of Christ Himself. My point had nothing to do with Peter and everything to do with the Church that he founded, which, according to the book of Acts, Peter played a prominent role in establishing. This is not a defence of the Papacy, it's a defence of the Church established on the day of Penetecost over which nothing can or will prevail. If you believe everyone is wrong, you believe that Church was overcome.

Quote
Peter is irrelevant to being born again. Rather it is this confession that results in being saved:

1Pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Col 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Read Romans 6. Please forgive me for not posting the entire chapter.

Quote
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Joh 20:31 NKJ)

 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:9-11 NKJ)

If you truly believed in Him, then you would have faith in His ability to lead, guide, and inspire, and protect His Church.



Not talking about church organizations...My post is about being born again.

I know icon venerators aren't born again, if the prototype dwelt in them, they wouldn't need images to speak to Him.

So here I am, talking about being born again, having Christ near, indwelling, rather than far away.


 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart,`Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
 7 or, "`Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:5-11 NKJ)

You don't have to ask who will go to heaven, to bring God's Word down to you, nor who will uncover it, and bring it to you.

For in God you live and move and have your being, so He is not far from any one of us.

God Himself will put His Word in your mouth and in your heart, if you repent, and earnestly desire to confess Jesus publicly before angels and men.

THEN God puts His revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, in your heart, and in your mouth, and confessing it, you are saved. Past tense, or rather, a completed action.




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« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2010, 01:10:37 PM »

I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

And that's why you're starting up your new religious affiliation? Will Elijah care about that one either?

Could you ego get any more inflated?

Stop throwing all your Bible verses at me. The Church that canonized them went astray, so I don't have to recognize their authority.

Stay tuned to get my newly restored Gospel, written on golden tablets which I am currently translating:


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« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2010, 01:17:16 PM »

When you obey apostolic doctrine and confess Jesus publicly, that He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, then God's Spirit comes falls upon you, regenerating your soul, so that it now is a "new creature," and you thereafter walk by God's Holy Spirit:

Not according to the NT. No one in the NT brings themselves into Christ. Christ gave the Holy Spirit to the apostles. They baptized people, gave the gift of the Holy Spirit, healed people, etc. They ordained bishops, presbyters, and deacons in local churches and gave them the authority to do the same. Even when Paul had his experience on the road to damascus, he still had to be baptized into the Church. Even Apollos who recieved John's baptism of repentence and went around preaching Jesus as the Christ still had to be baptized into the Church.

Quote
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
 (Rom 8:8-9 NKJ)

It doesn't matter what church you belong to, if your heart is unregenerate.

I disagree. Christ said that the servant who knew the masters will and did not do it would receive more stripes than the one who didn't. But if you were to exchange the word "unregenerate" for "unrepentant", then I would agree that daily repentance and conversion is necessary and only condemnation can come without it.

Precisely according to the New Testament, in God we live and move and have our being, therefore He is not far from any one of us:
27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
 28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said,`For we are also His offspring.'
 (Act 17:27-28 NKJ)

We do not require someone bring God's truth to us from heaven, or uncover it from some hiding place on earth, God Himself puts the revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, in your heart and in your mouth, when you repent and earnestly desire Him as LORD over you and all you possess:

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart,`Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
 7 or, "`Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:5-11 NKJ)

That God providentially uses preachers to make you aware of this Gospel of truth doesn't make them a part of the process of salvation, just as a waiter isn't part of your meal.

And if that waiter won't bring you the food, there is always another who will.

As for the servant beaten with many stripes, he couldn't have been born again, for there is  now no condemnation for them who walk after the  Spirit:

NKJ  Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 (Rom 8:1-8 NKJ)
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« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2010, 01:25:40 PM »

Since you preach to us, what do you say of the cost of discipleship? Do you have the level of courage it takes if necessary? Do you know the level of courage of another believer? While Peter fulfilled it as an apostle, did he not first fail at the crucufixion of the Lord? Is this so easy to determine? Do we all have the courage of Sts. Polycarp, Thekla, Ignatius etc..??
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« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2010, 01:39:54 PM »

Precisely according to the New Testament...

Assembled by image-needers, not as pure as yourself. You should write a better book.
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« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2010, 02:15:47 PM »

John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, said you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  Wink
Yes.  St. John's Gospel is, in addition to being the most theologically perceptive of the four Gospels, also the most liturgically oriented.  What that means is that one must understand early Christian liturgy to interpret St. John's Gospel correctly.  Knowing this, St. John's reference to water and the Spirit can only mean baptism and chrismation.

Frankly, your ego is astounding,
Yes, I know, but do you know the meaning of the imperative, "Physician, heal thyself!"?  Or the parable of the black pot and the black kettle?  I'm not the one who goes to discussion forums of other non-Orthodox Christian faiths to preach Orthodoxy to them while I totally ignore the arguments they put forward to defend their faith and boast of the rhetorical superiority of my logic.

you know which Gospel writers weren't theologically perceptive?
I'm not saying that the other Gospels were NOT theologically perceptive, so you've no need to put words into my mouth.  All of the Gospels are theologically perceptive; it's just that, by way of comparison, the Gospel of St. John shows itself more theologically perceptive than the others.

If we must talk about perception, Christ isn't about liturgy:

 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
 26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
 (Mat 23:25-26 NKJ)
Those verses don't prove your point.  Besides, if Christ isn't about liturgy, why did He, as the pre-incarnate Son of God, reveal the liturgy of the tabernacle to the Hebrews and command them to build their whole life around it?

The Eucharist is not ritual, it teaches ingestion of Christ (cf John c. 6) entire, who He is, and all He taught, its not a ritual, its another way of saying:

 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 (Joh 3:5-7 NKJ)
Again, those verses don't prove your point.  They don't have anything to do with your point.  So what IS your point (in trotting them out)?  BTW, whose interpretation of those texts are you presenting here?  You may certainly believe you're only presenting to us what the Bible says, but I know better.  The Bible says whatever we mean it to say.

You repent, believe Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God, confess that publicly, and selling all you own...to follow Him, that is ingesting Christ.
That's an interesting definition I've never seen before, not even when I was a Bible-studying Protestant.  Where'd you come up with that?  Who taught it to you?
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« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2010, 02:38:38 PM »

John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, said you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  Wink
Yes.  St. John's Gospel is, in addition to being the most theologically perceptive of the four Gospels, also the most liturgically oriented.  What that means is that one must understand early Christian liturgy to interpret St. John's Gospel correctly.  Knowing this, St. John's reference to water and the Spirit can only mean baptism and chrismation.

Frankly, your ego is astounding,
Yes, I know, but do you know the meaning of the imperative, "Physician, heal thyself!"?  Or the parable of the black pot and the black kettle?  I'm not the one who goes to discussion forums of other non-Orthodox Christian faiths to preach Orthodoxy to them while I totally ignore the arguments they put forward to defend their faith and boast of the rhetorical superiority of my logic.

you know which Gospel writers weren't theologically perceptive?
I'm not saying that the other Gospels were NOT theologically perceptive, so you've no need to put words into my mouth.  All of the Gospels are theologically perceptive; it's just that, by way of comparison, the Gospel of St. John shows itself more theologically perceptive than the others.

If we must talk about perception, Christ isn't about liturgy:

 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
 26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
 (Mat 23:25-26 NKJ)
Those verses don't prove your point.  Besides, if Christ isn't about liturgy, why did He, as the pre-incarnate Son of God, reveal the liturgy of the tabernacle to the Hebrews and command them to build their whole life around it?

The Eucharist is not ritual, it teaches ingestion of Christ (cf John c. 6) entire, who He is, and all He taught, its not a ritual, its another way of saying:

 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 (Joh 3:5-7 NKJ)
Again, those verses don't prove your point.  They don't have anything to do with your point.  So what IS your point (in trotting them out)?  BTW, whose interpretation of those texts are you presenting here?  You may certainly believe you're only presenting to us what the Bible says, but I know better.  The Bible says whatever we mean it to say.

You repent, believe Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God, confess that publicly, and selling all you own...to follow Him, that is ingesting Christ.
That's an interesting definition I've never seen before, not even when I was a Bible-studying Protestant.  Where'd you come up with that?  Who taught it to you?

God taught it to me, via the scripture, the entire context is about belief in Christ, true belief, one that ingests His teachings completely, not superficially:

NKJ  John 6:1 After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias.
 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased.
 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples.
 4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.
 5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat?"
 6 But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do.
 7 Philip answered Him, "Two hundred denarii worth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may have a little."
 8 One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to Him,
 9 "There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two small fish, but what are they among so many?"
 10 Then Jesus said, "Make the people sit down." Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
 11 And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples to those sitting down; and likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted.
 12 So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, "Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost."
 ...

24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You come here?"
 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,`He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says,`I have come down from heaven '?"
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 48 "I am the bread of life.
 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
 (Joh 6:1 NKJ)


« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 02:40:37 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2010, 02:47:40 PM »

God taught it to me, via the scripture,
Do you know how many false teachers say exactly the same thing?  What makes you so sure you're not just another one of them?
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« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2010, 02:51:21 PM »

Alfred, may I ask, what do you think about the so-called Oneness Pentecostalism? The reason I am asking is that the adherents of this movement have the same tendency you show: pick a great number of quotes from the Bible and support their "idea" that there is no Trinity.
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« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2010, 02:54:22 PM »

God taught it to me, via the scripture,
Do you know how many false teachers say exactly the same thing?  What makes you so sure you're not just another one of them?
because you (Mr. Persson) have posted enough to demostrate that you are.

Via what scripture?  The Gnostic Gospels?
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« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2010, 03:14:12 PM »

John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, said you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  Wink
Yes.  St. John's Gospel is, in addition to being the most theologically perceptive of the four Gospels, also the most liturgically oriented.  What that means is that one must understand early Christian liturgy to interpret St. John's Gospel correctly.  Knowing this, St. John's reference to water and the Spirit can only mean baptism and chrismation.

Frankly, your ego is astounding,
Yes, I know, but do you know the meaning of the imperative, "Physician, heal thyself!"?  Or the parable of the black pot and the black kettle?  I'm not the one who goes to discussion forums of other non-Orthodox Christian faiths to preach Orthodoxy to them while I totally ignore the arguments they put forward to defend their faith and boast of the rhetorical superiority of my logic.

you know which Gospel writers weren't theologically perceptive?
I'm not saying that the other Gospels were NOT theologically perceptive, so you've no need to put words into my mouth.  All of the Gospels are theologically perceptive; it's just that, by way of comparison, the Gospel of St. John shows itself more theologically perceptive than the others.

If we must talk about perception, Christ isn't about liturgy:

 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
 26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
 (Mat 23:25-26 NKJ)
Those verses don't prove your point.  Besides, if Christ isn't about liturgy, why did He, as the pre-incarnate Son of God, reveal the liturgy of the tabernacle to the Hebrews and command them to build their whole life around it?

The Eucharist is not ritual, it teaches ingestion of Christ (cf John c. 6) entire, who He is, and all He taught, its not a ritual, its another way of saying:

 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 (Joh 3:5-7 NKJ)
Again, those verses don't prove your point.  They don't have anything to do with your point.  So what IS your point (in trotting them out)?  BTW, whose interpretation of those texts are you presenting here?  You may certainly believe you're only presenting to us what the Bible says, but I know better.  The Bible says whatever we mean it to say.

You repent, believe Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God, confess that publicly, and selling all you own...to follow Him, that is ingesting Christ.
That's an interesting definition I've never seen before, not even when I was a Bible-studying Protestant.  Where'd you come up with that?  Who taught it to you?

God taught it to me, via the scripture, the entire context is about belief in Christ, true belief, one that ingests His teachings completely, not superficially:

Physician, heal thyself.

Quote
NKJ  John 6:1 After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias.
 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased.
 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples.
 4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.
 5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat?"
 6 But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do.

NKJ John 14:7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Quote
7 Philip answered Him, "Two hundred denarii worth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may have a little."
 8 One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to Him,
 9 "There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two small fish, but what are they among so many?"
 10 Then Jesus said, "Make the people sit down." Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
 11 And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples to those sitting down; and likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted.
 12 So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, "Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost."
 ...

24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You come here?"
 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs,


Quote
but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,`He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.[/b]

Quote
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
 40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says,`I have come down from heaven '?"
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 48 "I am the bread of life.
 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

Quote
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64"But there are some of you who do not believe.[/color][/b]" For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
 (Joh 6:1 NKJ)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 03:22:12 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2010, 04:10:08 PM »

God taught it to me, via the scripture,
Do you know how many false teachers say exactly the same thing?  What makes you so sure you're not just another one of them?

I cited the text, highlighted the precise words, guess the proverb is true, you can lead 'em to water, but can't make 'em drink


NKJ  John 6:1 After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias.
 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased.
 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples.
 4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.
 5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat?"
 6 But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do.
 7 Philip answered Him, "Two hundred denarii worth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may have a little."
 8 One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to Him,
 9 "There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two small fish, but what are they among so many?"
 10 Then Jesus said, "Make the people sit down." Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
 11 And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples to those sitting down; and likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted.
 12 So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, "Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost."
 ...

24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You come here?"
 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,`He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says,`I have come down from heaven '?"
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 48 "I am the bread of life.
 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
 (Joh 6:1 NKJ)

« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 04:11:28 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2010, 04:12:52 PM »

John 3:5 - "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus himself says, when asked about being born again, said you can't enter the Kingdom of God without water baptism. The Greek word for "water" in this verse means .... water.  Wink
Yes.  St. John's Gospel is, in addition to being the most theologically perceptive of the four Gospels, also the most liturgically oriented.  What that means is that one must understand early Christian liturgy to interpret St. John's Gospel correctly.  Knowing this, St. John's reference to water and the Spirit can only mean baptism and chrismation.

Frankly, your ego is astounding,
Yes, I know, but do you know the meaning of the imperative, "Physician, heal thyself!"?  Or the parable of the black pot and the black kettle?  I'm not the one who goes to discussion forums of other non-Orthodox Christian faiths to preach Orthodoxy to them while I totally ignore the arguments they put forward to defend their faith and boast of the rhetorical superiority of my logic.

you know which Gospel writers weren't theologically perceptive?
I'm not saying that the other Gospels were NOT theologically perceptive, so you've no need to put words into my mouth.  All of the Gospels are theologically perceptive; it's just that, by way of comparison, the Gospel of St. John shows itself more theologically perceptive than the others.

If we must talk about perception, Christ isn't about liturgy:

 25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.
 26 "Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.
 (Mat 23:25-26 NKJ)
Those verses don't prove your point.  Besides, if Christ isn't about liturgy, why did He, as the pre-incarnate Son of God, reveal the liturgy of the tabernacle to the Hebrews and command them to build their whole life around it?

The Eucharist is not ritual, it teaches ingestion of Christ (cf John c. 6) entire, who He is, and all He taught, its not a ritual, its another way of saying:

 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you,`You must be born again.'
 (Joh 3:5-7 NKJ)
Again, those verses don't prove your point.  They don't have anything to do with your point.  So what IS your point (in trotting them out)?  BTW, whose interpretation of those texts are you presenting here?  You may certainly believe you're only presenting to us what the Bible says, but I know better.  The Bible says whatever we mean it to say.

You repent, believe Jesus the Christ, Son of the Living God, confess that publicly, and selling all you own...to follow Him, that is ingesting Christ.
That's an interesting definition I've never seen before, not even when I was a Bible-studying Protestant.  Where'd you come up with that?  Who taught it to you?

God taught it to me, via the scripture, the entire context is about belief in Christ, true belief, one that ingests His teachings completely, not superficially:

Physician, heal thyself.

Quote
NKJ  John 6:1 After these things Jesus went over the Sea of Galilee, which is the Sea of Tiberias.
 2 Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased.
 3 And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples.
 4 Now the Passover, a feast of the Jews, was near.
 5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat?"
 6 But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do.

NKJ John 14:7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Quote
7 Philip answered Him, "Two hundred denarii worth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may have a little."
 8 One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to Him,
 9 "There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two small fish, but what are they among so many?"
 10 Then Jesus said, "Make the people sit down." Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
 11 And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples to those sitting down; and likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted.
 12 So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, "Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost."
 ...

24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus.
 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "Rabbi, when did You come here?"
 26 Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs,


Quote
but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
 27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."
 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 30 Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?
 31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written,`He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
 32 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33 "For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, give us this bread always."
 35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.[/b]

Quote
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
 39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
 40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven."
 42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says,`I have come down from heaven '?"
 43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves.
 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
 45 "It is written in the prophets,`And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
 46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
 48 "I am the bread of life.
 49 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
 50 "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
 51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."
 52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?"
 53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?"
 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you?
 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

Quote
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
 64"But there are some of you who do not believe.[/color][/b]" For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?"
 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
 70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
 (Joh 6:1 NKJ)


AHHHHOOOGHHHHH....the pain...the icons are killing me....

Not.
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« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2010, 05:38:33 PM »


AHHHHOOOGHHHHH....the pain...the icons are killing me....

Not.

I believe the icons are there to illustrate and instruct.  You know, kind of like the Gospel.

Speaking of the Gospel...

I cited the text, highlighted the precise words, guess the proverb is true, you can lead 'em to water, but can't make 'em drink

Wonder what's in those words you didn't highlight?

Let's take a look...


 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

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« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2010, 06:12:22 PM »

God taught it to me, via the scripture,
Do you know how many false teachers say exactly the same thing?  What makes you so sure you're not just another one of them?

I cited the text, highlighted the precise words,
So what?  Anyone with an agenda that motivates proof texting can do that.  It doesn't prove anything.

guess the proverb is true, you can lead 'em to water, but can't make 'em drink
Particularly if the water stinks, like the river that runs through the heart of my town.
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« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2010, 08:05:32 PM »

AHHHHOOOGHHHHH....the pain...the icons are killing me....

Not.

II Cor. 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. 12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same icon from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.  4:1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the icon of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2010, 08:08:12 PM »

Precisely according to the New Testament...

Assembled by image-needers, not as pure as yourself. You should write a better book.

He is writing a book. Better is another matter.
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« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2010, 08:35:44 PM »


AHHHHOOOGHHHHH....the pain...the icons are killing me....

Not.

I believe the icons are there to illustrate and instruct.  You know, kind of like the Gospel.

Speaking of the Gospel...

I cited the text, highlighted the precise words, guess the proverb is true, you can lead 'em to water, but can't make 'em drink

Wonder what's in those words you didn't highlight?

Let's take a look...


 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."



Then Christ contradicts Himself:

63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

But if we accept Christ's words as He meant them, then His words are spirit and they are life, not a cannibalistic ritual.

A Christless Christianity is not life, its death.

The sense of it is carried over in many different ways:

NKJ  James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 (Jam 2:26 NKJ)

In other words, dead Orthodoxy does not save:

18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-- and tremble!
 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
 (Jam 2:18-20 NKJ)

James refuted the Rabbinical style argument in two different ways:
1)Belief in Orthodox monotheism does not save demons, they don't have works, therefore neither will it save you;
2)Faith can exist without works as documented by the demons, they believe so strongly they tremble, yet have no works.


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« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2010, 08:41:13 PM »

I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

And that's why you're starting up your new religious affiliation? Will Elijah care about that one either?

Could you ego get any more inflated?

Stop throwing all your Bible verses at me. The Church that canonized them went astray, so I don't have to recognize their authority.

Stay tuned to get my newly restored Gospel, written on golden tablets which I am currently translating:



LOL. Don't let Lucy Harris get it.
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« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2010, 09:15:23 PM »


AHHHHOOOGHHHHH....the pain...the icons are killing me....

Not.

I believe the icons are there to illustrate and instruct.  You know, kind of like the Gospel.

Speaking of the Gospel...

I cited the text, highlighted the precise words, guess the proverb is true, you can lead 'em to water, but can't make 'em drink

Wonder what's in those words you didn't highlight?

Let's take a look...


 54 "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 55 "For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
 57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
 58 "This is the bread which came down from heaven-- not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."



Then Christ contradicts Himself:

No, you just misrepresent Him, like the gnostics before you.  They too denied that the Word took flesh and dwelt among us. Some people can't learn from the mistakes of others.

Quote
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 24:36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

Quote
But if we accept Christ's words as He meant them,

We do, but you with the rest of the gnostics do not. As St. Ignatius (who knew St. John) stated to the Church of Smyrna a few years after St. John sent Revelation to them:
Quote
I Glorify God, even Jesus Christ, who has given you such wisdom. For I have observed that you are perfected in an immoveable faith, as if you were nailed to the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, both in the flesh and in the spirit, and are established in love through the blood of Christ, being fully persuaded with respect to our Lord, that He was truly of the seed of David according to the flesh, Romans 1:3 and the Son of God according to the will and power of God; that He was truly born of a virgin, was baptized by John, in order that all righteousness might be fulfilled Matthew 3:15 by Him; and was truly, under Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch, nailed [to the cross] for us in His flesh. Of this fruit we are by His divinely-blessed passion, that He might set up a standard Isaiah 5:26, Isaiah 49:22 for all ages, through His resurrection, to all His holy and faithful [followers], whether among Jews or Gentiles, in the one body of His Church.  Now, He suffered all these things for our sakes, that we might be saved. And He suffered truly, even as also He truly raised up Himself, not, as certain unbelievers maintain, that He only seemed to suffer, as they themselves only seem to be [Christians]. And as they believe, so shall it happen unto them, when they shall be divested of their bodies, and be mere evil spirits. For I know that after His resurrection also He was still possessed of flesh, and I believe that He is so now. When, for instance, He came to those who were with Peter, He said to them, Lay hold, handle Me, and see that I am not an incorporeal spirit. And immediately they touched Him, and believed, being convinced both by His flesh and spirit. For this cause also they despised death, and were found its conquerors. And after his resurrection He ate and drank with them, as being possessed of flesh, although spiritually He was united to the Father.  I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that you also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from those beasts in the shape of men, whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with; only you must pray to God for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance, which, however, will be very difficult. Yet Jesus Christ, who is our true life, has the power of [effecting] this. But if these things were done by our Lord only in appearance, then am I also only in appearance bound. And why have I also surrendered myself to death, to fire, to the sword, to the wild beasts? But, [in fact,] he who is near to the sword is near to God; he that is among the wild beasts is in company with God; provided only he be so in the name of Jesus Christ. I undergo all these things that I may suffer together with Him, Romans 8:17 He who became a perfect man inwardly strengthening me. Philippians 4:13 Some ignorantly deny Him, or rather have been denied by Him, being the advocates of death rather than of the truth. These persons neither have the prophets persuaded, nor the law of Moses, nor the Gospel even to this day, nor the sufferings we have individually endured. For they think also the same thing regarding us. For what does any one profit me, if he commends me, but blasphemes my Lord, not confessing that He was [truly] possessed of a body? But he who does not acknowledge this, has in fact altogether denied Him, being enveloped in death. I have not, however, thought good to write the names of such persons, inasmuch as they are unbelievers. Yea, far be it from me to make any mention of them, until they repent and return to [a true belief in] Christ's passion, which is our resurrection.  Let no man deceive himself. Both the things which are in heaven, and the glorious angels, and rulers, both visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ, shall, in consequence, incur condemnation. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Matthew 19:12 Let not [high] place puff any one up: for that which is worth all is faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred. But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the very flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Quote
then His words are spirit and they are life,

His are. Yours aren't.

Quote
not a cannibalistic ritual.

The Bloodless Sacrifice.

Quote
A Christless Christianity is not life, its death.

The sense of it is carried over in many different ways:

NKJ  James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 (Jam 2:26 NKJ)

In other words, dead Orthodoxy does not save:

Live Orthodoxy is the only thing that does save.

Quote
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-- and tremble!
 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
 (Jam 2:18-20 NKJ)

James refuted the Rabbinical style argument in two different ways:
1)Belief in Orthodox monotheism does not save demons, they don't have works, therefore neither will it save you;
2)Faith can exist without works as documented by the demons, they believe so strongly they tremble, yet have no works.

You are disagreeing with your "apostolic" authority.
Are you still using this rule on what is "apostolic"?
Lets see you claim to be in apostolic sucession & yet say that someone (me) who finds an apostolic source as evidence of a veneration practice by apostolic Christians of the remains a martyred apsotolic Christian & that I trust these people as observing proper Christian burial rite as relying on unreliable hearsay?

The Church is Apostolic (ecclesia apostolica) inasmuch as all its members to the Last Day come to faith in Christ through the Word of the Apostles (John 17:20: πιστεύσοντες διὰ λόγου αὐτῶν εἰς ἐμέ) and cling to the Word of the Apostles (Acts 2:42: προσκαρτεροῦντες τῇ διδαχῇ τῶν ἀποστόλων), and this over against all departures from the truth of Scripture. Rom. 16:17: “Avoid them,” namely, those who “cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned.”
Pieper, F. (1999). Vol. 3: Christian Dogmatics (electronic ed.) (411). St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House.
1999? That's only 1900 years too late to be in contact with an Apostle to receive their teaching.

President Pieper also comes nearly 1800 years too late too.


Like you, he was sent by no one sent by the Apostles, hence not sent by Christ, therefore not sent by God.

Odd that you should stand on him as an authority, as he was not only a confessional Lutheran, but one who held "quia subscription" to the Book of Concord, one of the examples of the tradition the Protestants supposedly don't have and don't follow. Roll Eyes
http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=10741
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessional_Lutheran#.22Quia.22_versus_.22Quatenus.22_subscription

Quia means he held, and required, the belief that the Book of Concord did not contradict Scripture, and because ("quia") of that, one must subcribe to its teachings.
Why Bible-Believing Lutherans Subscribe to the Book of Concord
http://www.wlsessays.net/node/385
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« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2010, 11:43:01 PM »

Not talking about church organizations...My post is about being born again.

In Acts, Christ identified Himself with the Church. You can't have one without the other, you have to accept both. There is a word for when you seperate someone's head from their body - decapatation. This is exactly what you are doing when you remove the Head from the operation of the Body. The fact that you have no faith in the Body says something about your faith in the Head. You are "born again" when you are grafted into Christ, which is when you are baptized, which is into the Body -the Church. How you view the Church has everything to do with rebirth and regeneration - which is done in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Quote
I know icon venerators aren't born again, if the prototype dwelt in them, they wouldn't need images to speak to Him.

So here I am, talking about being born again, having Christ near, indwelling, rather than far away.


 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart,`Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
 7 or, "`Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:5-11 NKJ)

You don't have to ask who will go to heaven, to bring God's Word down to you, nor who will uncover it, and bring it to you.

For in God you live and move and have your being, so He is not far from any one of us.

God Himself will put His Word in your mouth and in your heart, if you repent, and earnestly desire to confess Jesus publicly before angels and men.

THEN God puts His revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, in your heart, and in your mouth, and confessing it, you are saved. Past tense, or rather, a completed action.

First, you can't presume to know the spiritual state of us "icon venerators" by your own standards. If you truly believe that nonsense about salvation being a completed thing in the past, then by your own standards many of the idolatrous icon venerators on here are saved, regenerate, and have Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling by your own standards. A number of people on here, myslef included, have come from backgrounds that taught that same thing. I will use myself as an example. I was "saved" in a baptist church 13 years ago. I was "born again". It was a completed action and it is done and finished. So by your own standards, I can venerate all the icons I want and not have to worry because I am "saved" and the action is already completed so I'm OK because I have my "fire insurance".

Second, I hope the illustration above shows you why it is total nonsense to say that salvation is strictly an event that is fully completed in the past. This goes against the whole idea that in Him we live and move and have our being. Salvation isn't just something you get and then you just have it like a picture you hang on your wall. It's like a pair of shoes that you have to get up in the morning, put them on, and then continue to walk in them.

Third, confessing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and believing it does absolutely no good if you're not even attempting to live according to that confession and belief. No one ever fully lives up to that because we're all a bunch of sinners, but one has to continually labor and struggle to be conformed to Christ.

Fourth, not one single person is recorded as becoming a Christian in the way you describe. Everyone is baptized. With the exception of those in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, there is not a single person who is received into the Church otherwise. Not Paul. Not Apollos. Not even the gentiles who miraculously recieved the Holy Spirit whe Peter preached, even they were baptized. The question was asked to Peter "what must we do to be saved" and the answer was believe and be baptized. It wasn't "just make a public confession that you believe", it wasn't "just believe", there was no "come up here and say a prayer accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior". It's just not there.

Fiifth, you're not looking at it in the context of loving God and neighbor with everything you have. If you truly loved God, you would wanna draw as near to Him as possible using everything available. How can someone say they love Christ wholly, but at the same time not want to live within the context of His Body, the Church, which he purchased with His own precious Blood.
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« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2010, 11:56:31 PM »

Precisely according to the New Testament, in God we live and move and have our being, therefore He is not far from any one of us:
27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
 28 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said,`For we are also His offspring.'
 (Act 17:27-28 NKJ)

We do not require someone bring God's truth to us from heaven, or uncover it from some hiding place on earth, God Himself puts the revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, in your heart and in your mouth, when you repent and earnestly desire Him as LORD over you and all you possess:

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart,`Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
 7 or, "`Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:5-11 NKJ)

That God providentially uses preachers to make you aware of this Gospel of truth doesn't make them a part of the process of salvation, just as a waiter isn't part of your meal.

And if that waiter won't bring you the food, there is always another who will.

As for the servant beaten with many stripes, he couldn't have been born again, for there is  now no condemnation for them who walk after the  Spirit:

NKJ  Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 (Rom 8:1-8 NKJ)

Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

1Cor 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

1Cor 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

1Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Jude 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
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« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2010, 12:11:05 AM »

Alfred, may I ask, what do you think about the so-called Oneness Pentecostalism? The reason I am asking is that the adherents of this movement have the same tendency you show: pick a great number of quotes from the Bible and support their "idea" that there is no Trinity.

They are heretical, I blame icons for their error, they combine the whole Christ, body soul, divinity, in one tiny image.

They certainly don't get their error from scripture, or do you accuse God of writing to confuse them?
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« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2010, 12:15:00 AM »

I warned all I proselytize for Christ, not any denomination as none of them are right, all have gone astray.

And that's why you're starting up your new religious affiliation? Will Elijah care about that one either?

Could you ego get any more inflated?

Stop throwing all your Bible verses at me. The Church that canonized them went astray, so I don't have to recognize their authority.

Stay tuned to get my newly restored Gospel, written on golden tablets which I am currently translating:



LOL. Don't let Lucy Harris get it.


Its sad...when I recall John of Damascus, all he wrote, and compare  his output with your icon copy paste, that says nothing important.

Its sad.

Why not try citing scripture or the fathers, anything of value...comedy central?...
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« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2010, 12:47:37 AM »

Not talking about church organizations...My post is about being born again.

In Acts, Christ identified Himself with the Church. You can't have one without the other, you have to accept both. There is a word for when you seperate someone's head from their body - decapatation. This is exactly what you are doing when you remove the Head from the operation of the Body. The fact that you have no faith in the Body says something about your faith in the Head. You are "born again" when you are grafted into Christ, which is when you are baptized, which is into the Body -the Church. How you view the Church has everything to do with rebirth and regeneration - which is done in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Quote
I know icon venerators aren't born again, if the prototype dwelt in them, they wouldn't need images to speak to Him.

So here I am, talking about being born again, having Christ near, indwelling, rather than far away.


 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart,`Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
 7 or, "`Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:5-11 NKJ)

You don't have to ask who will go to heaven, to bring God's Word down to you, nor who will uncover it, and bring it to you.

For in God you live and move and have your being, so He is not far from any one of us.

God Himself will put His Word in your mouth and in your heart, if you repent, and earnestly desire to confess Jesus publicly before angels and men.

THEN God puts His revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, in your heart, and in your mouth, and confessing it, you are saved. Past tense, or rather, a completed action.

First, you can't presume to know the spiritual state of us "icon venerators" by your own standards. If you truly believe that nonsense about salvation being a completed thing in the past, then by your own standards many of the idolatrous icon venerators on here are saved, regenerate, and have Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling by your own standards. A number of people on here, myslef included, have come from backgrounds that taught that same thing. I will use myself as an example. I was "saved" in a baptist church 13 years ago. I was "born again". It was a completed action and it is done and finished. So by your own standards, I can venerate all the icons I want and not have to worry because I am "saved" and the action is already completed so I'm OK because I have my "fire insurance".

Second, I hope the illustration above shows you why it is total nonsense to say that salvation is strictly an event that is fully completed in the past. This goes against the whole idea that in Him we live and move and have our being. Salvation isn't just something you get and then you just have it like a picture you hang on your wall. It's like a pair of shoes that you have to get up in the morning, put them on, and then continue to walk in them.

Third, confessing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and believing it does absolutely no good if you're not even attempting to live according to that confession and belief. No one ever fully lives up to that because we're all a bunch of sinners, but one has to continually labor and struggle to be conformed to Christ.

Fourth, not one single person is recorded as becoming a Christian in the way you describe. Everyone is baptized. With the exception of those in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, there is not a single person who is received into the Church otherwise. Not Paul. Not Apollos. Not even the gentiles who miraculously recieved the Holy Spirit whe Peter preached, even they were baptized. The question was asked to Peter "what must we do to be saved" and the answer was believe and be baptized. It wasn't "just make a public confession that you believe", it wasn't "just believe", there was no "come up here and say a prayer accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior". It's just not there.

Fiifth, you're not looking at it in the context of loving God and neighbor with everything you have. If you truly loved God, you would wanna draw as near to Him as possible using everything available. How can someone say they love Christ wholly, but at the same time not want to live within the context of His Body, the Church, which he purchased with His own precious Blood.

Not one scripture quote, not even a citation of a father, nothing but your claims of this and that. I claim you are wrong...so now we are even.

1)One can reason from an effect to its cause.

 Orthodox statements affirm icons convey veneration to the prototype, or somehow veneration given to them passes to the prototype. Either way, one must conclude the prototype is not present, if he were, then no icon would be needed.

2)Your concept of church is deficient, you believe its only the Orthodox church. But Paul didn't believe that. He knew schism would occur, and the church would splinter:

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 (1Co 3:10-15 NKJ)

Some churches have apostolic doctrine, gold, others rely on traditions of men, straw. When God tests these structures, the ones made of straw are burned up, but those in them, if they are on the foundation of Christ, are still saved, yet it will be as though they fled a burning building, with only their salvation intact, no rewards.

So you have a defective view of the church, God is infinite, and can save many more people than you give Him credit for:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
(Rev 7:9-10 NKJ)

3)You claim I decapitated Christ's body, that is impossible,  its absurd. Better get a new illustration.

4)According to apostolic doctrine, confessing Jesus is the Christ saves, salvation is a whole lot of Good:

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 (Rom 10:9-10 NKJ)

Paul didn't qualify salvation, no caveat, no "but" in the text. Paul didn't say "you will be saved IF, and ONLY IF you can follow all the rules after the confession, even after you die, if you have one bad thought on the way to heaven, its to hell you will go! And once in heaven, you better not slip up...salvation can be lost forever, and its to hell you be hurled.

Hasta la vista baby! Fat chance you'll last very long.


4) 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 (Act 10:44-47 NKJ)

God doesn't have to wait for a confession, He knows the hearts. Your idea they have to wait for baptism to enter the church is contradicted by these, they drank of the One spirit before being baptized, that made them member of Christ's church before baptism, totally refuting your claim.

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:13 NKJ)

Spirit baptism,  not water baptism, which does not save:

NKJ  1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
 (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

When the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, then the conscience gives a good answer, the person repents and believes, THEN one enters the church.

They don't have to wait for your water.

5)It is you who limit God's salvation to a few, not me. That's not very loving of you.


« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 01:00:04 AM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2010, 12:53:58 AM »

LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them. 

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? Cheesy
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« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2010, 12:57:39 AM »

Not talking about church organizations...My post is about being born again.

In Acts, Christ identified Himself with the Church. You can't have one without the other, you have to accept both. There is a word for when you seperate someone's head from their body - decapatation. This is exactly what you are doing when you remove the Head from the operation of the Body. The fact that you have no faith in the Body says something about your faith in the Head. You are "born again" when you are grafted into Christ, which is when you are baptized, which is into the Body -the Church. How you view the Church has everything to do with rebirth and regeneration - which is done in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Quote
I know icon venerators aren't born again, if the prototype dwelt in them, they wouldn't need images to speak to Him.

So here I am, talking about being born again, having Christ near, indwelling, rather than far away.


 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."
 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart,`Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
 7 or, "`Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
 (Rom 10:5-11 NKJ)

You don't have to ask who will go to heaven, to bring God's Word down to you, nor who will uncover it, and bring it to you.

For in God you live and move and have your being, so He is not far from any one of us.

God Himself will put His Word in your mouth and in your heart, if you repent, and earnestly desire to confess Jesus publicly before angels and men.

THEN God puts His revelation Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, in your heart, and in your mouth, and confessing it, you are saved. Past tense, or rather, a completed action.

First, you can't presume to know the spiritual state of us "icon venerators" by your own standards. If you truly believe that nonsense about salvation being a completed thing in the past, then by your own standards many of the idolatrous icon venerators on here are saved, regenerate, and have Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling by your own standards. A number of people on here, myslef included, have come from backgrounds that taught that same thing. I will use myself as an example. I was "saved" in a baptist church 13 years ago. I was "born again". It was a completed action and it is done and finished. So by your own standards, I can venerate all the icons I want and not have to worry because I am "saved" and the action is already completed so I'm OK because I have my "fire insurance".

Second, I hope the illustration above shows you why it is total nonsense to say that salvation is strictly an event that is fully completed in the past. This goes against the whole idea that in Him we live and move and have our being. Salvation isn't just something you get and then you just have it like a picture you hang on your wall. It's like a pair of shoes that you have to get up in the morning, put them on, and then continue to walk in them.

Third, confessing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and believing it does absolutely no good if you're not even attempting to live according to that confession and belief. No one ever fully lives up to that because we're all a bunch of sinners, but one has to continually labor and struggle to be conformed to Christ.

Fourth, not one single person is recorded as becoming a Christian in the way you describe. Everyone is baptized. With the exception of those in the upper room on the day of Pentecost, there is not a single person who is received into the Church otherwise. Not Paul. Not Apollos. Not even the gentiles who miraculously recieved the Holy Spirit whe Peter preached, even they were baptized. The question was asked to Peter "what must we do to be saved" and the answer was believe and be baptized. It wasn't "just make a public confession that you believe", it wasn't "just believe", there was no "come up here and say a prayer accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior". It's just not there.

Fiifth, you're not looking at it in the context of loving God and neighbor with everything you have. If you truly loved God, you would wanna draw as near to Him as possible using everything available. How can someone say they love Christ wholly, but at the same time not want to live within the context of His Body, the Church, which he purchased with His own precious Blood.

Not one scripture quote, not even a citation of a father, nothing but your claims of this and that. I claim you are wrong...so now we are even.

1)One can reason from an effect to its cause.

 Orthodox statements affirm icons convey veneration to the prototype, or somehow veneration given to them passes to the prototype. Either way, one must conclude the prototype is not present, if he were, then no icon would be needed.

2)Your concept of church is deficient, you believe its only the Orthodox church. But Paul didn't believe that. He knew schism would occur, and the church would splinter:

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
 (1Co 3:10-15 NKJ)

Some churches have apostolic doctrine, gold, others rely on traditions of men, straw. When God tests these structures, the ones made of straw are burned up, but those in them, if they are on the foundation of Christ, are still saved, yet it will be as though they fled a burning building, with only their salvation intact, no rewards.

So you have a defective view of the church, God is infinite, and can save many more people than you give Him credit for:

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
(Rev 7:9-10 NKJ)

3)You claim I decapitated Christ's body, that is impossible,  its absurd. Better get a new illustration.

4)According to apostolic doctrine, confess Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God does a whole lot of Good:

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 (Rom 10:9-10 NKJ)

I don't see Paul qualify this salvation, there is no caveat...no you will be saved "IF you can follow all the rules after the confession, after you die faithful, then and only then will you be saved, provided you don't think any bad thoughts, ever."

4) 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
 (Act 10:44-47 NKJ)

God doesn't have to wait for a confession, He knows the hearts. Your idea they have to wait for baptism to enter the church is contradicted by these, they drank of the One spirit before being baptized, that made them member of Christ's church before baptism, totally refuting your claim.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:13 NKJ)

Spirit baptism,  not water baptism, which does not save:

NKJ  1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
 (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

When the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, then the conscience gives a good answer, the person repents and believes, THEN one enters the church.

They don't have to wait for your water.

5)It is you who limit God's salvation to a few, not me. That's not very loving of you.



Matt 7:21- Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" shall enter the Kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Matt 7:26- But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine and does not do them will be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand.

Matt 28:19- Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Mark 16:16- He who believes and is baptized will be saved
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« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2010, 01:02:41 AM »

LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them.  

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? Cheesy

Nope---correctly interpret scripture and I will be pleased, I promise.

By the way, what are you looking at? The Garden I bet....
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« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2010, 01:08:52 AM »

Matt 7:21- Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" shall enter the Kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Matt 7:26- But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine and does not do them will be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand.

Matt 28:19- Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Mark 16:16- He who believes and is baptized will be saved

Its the will of the Father we believe in Jesus:

 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
 (Joh 6:28-29 NKJ)

Mat 16:16 doesn't teach baptism is necessary for salvation, it only says it happens among those who really believe. In Mark's day, any Jew getting baptised was forsaking all he owned, to follow Christ. So baptism is being use "adjectivally" to modify belief, it indicates true belief is required, the kind of belief that will follow Christ wherever He goes.

That this is so is proved by the text itself:

 16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mar 16:16 NKJ)

Only non belief condemns.

If not being baptized condemned, then it would have been listed twice, just as belief is.
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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
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« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2010, 01:11:03 AM »

LOL ... when someone replies to you WITH Scripture verses you either ignore them or assert they have misinterpreted them.  

When someone replies to you WITHOUT Scripture verses you complain that they have nothing to back up their statements.

Is the heat getting to you, Alfred? Cheesy

Incorrect, correctly interpret scripture and I will be pleased, I promise.

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:


      “ He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
      And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
       So He opened not His mouth.
       33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
      And who will declare His generation?
      For His life is taken from the earth.”

34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Acts 8:30-38
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"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
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