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Author Topic: Anglican vs. Episcopal Church / Anglo-Catholicism  (Read 4097 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alveus Lacuna
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« on: August 21, 2010, 02:20:35 AM »

Can somebody please help me straighten all of this out? I always have assumed that Anglicans in the United States are called Episcopalian, but I have noticed a few parishes in my city that call themselves Anglican, and now I am completely confused. I also don't understand the Anglo-Catholic movement and its relationship to Canterbury.

For example, here is a local church that claims to be Anglo-Catholic:

http://www.stjamesanglican.net/

Yet they state on the website that they are not in communion with Canterbury, but do claim apostolic succession. Are they some kind of rogue group, or is this normal for Anglo-Catholics?

There's a lot on their website about the 7 councils of the undivided church, apostolic succession, and they even appear to have Orthodox icons on the sides of the altar. I'm intrigued and confused by this whole thing, so any explanation would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 02:20:55 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
Alveus Lacuna
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2010, 12:08:02 PM »

Likewise, do they pray to the saints? How "reformed" are they, exactly?
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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2010, 12:17:35 PM »

Can somebody please help me straighten all of this out? I always have assumed that Anglicans in the United States are called Episcopalian, but I have noticed a few parishes in my city that call themselves Anglican, and now I am completely confused. I also don't understand the Anglo-Catholic movement and its relationship to Canterbury.

For example, here is a local church that claims to be Anglo-Catholic:

http://www.stjamesanglican.net/

Yet they state on the website that they are not in communion with Canterbury, but do claim apostolic succession. Are they some kind of rogue group, or is this normal for Anglo-Catholics?

There's a lot on their website about the 7 councils of the undivided church, apostolic succession, and they even appear to have Orthodox icons on the sides of the altar. I'm intrigued and confused by this whole thing, so any explanation would be appreciated.

Within the past two years, following events that have been percolating in the Episcopal Church since 1979 and the ordination of women, 4 entire dioceses have left the Episcopal Church and formed the Anglican Church in North America.  They also united with various Anglican splinter groups going all the way to the Reformed Episcopal Church. 

Many of the Anglo-catholic parishes have joined this break-away group (and the Anglo-Catholic diocese of Fort Worth was a founding member), but as with Anglicanism itself the ACNA is still very much trying to straddle the line between both "Protestant and Catholic".  The inaugural meeting of the ACNA saw visits and talks from such differing people as Rick Warren and Metropolitan Jonah (whose speech actually got me out of my "fish or cut bait" mindset and into the Orthodox church).

Unfortunately, the ACNA still has the institution of woman priests, though IIRC bishops must be men.
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2010, 12:29:47 PM »

I should note as well the ACNA's rather strange place within the Anglican Communion- while it is not in communion with Canterbury, it is in communion with most of the conservative Anglican jurisdictions.
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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2010, 12:35:52 PM »

They are in communion with most of the Anglicans in the world while I don't think the Episcopal Church is any longer.

The anglican church and communion isn't probably what you would think of as a church. It is rather a big tent with people of various different faiths. Some are Anglo-catholics which are traditional believe in sacraments don't tend to believe in the 39 articles etc, than at the other extreme you have calvinists that don't believe in anything that is catholic and don't believe in sacraments or holy orders and do believe in the 39 articles and then their are many that are just plain old protestants they believe what ever they want. Hope this helps.

Also, there things that would stand out right away such as open communion, meaning any "baptized" christian can receive regardless of what they believe; Branch theory, and bapismal theology.
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« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2010, 01:44:34 PM »

They are in communion with most of the Anglicans in the world while I don't think the Episcopal Church is any longer.

The first part (They [the ACNA] are in communion...) is correct in terms of population, though I'm not sure if it's correct in terms of Anglican territories.  The second part (I don't think the Episcopal...) is harder to ascertain because no one really knows what "being in communion" in the Anglican Communion actually means! 
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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2010, 08:29:09 PM »

Likewise, do they pray to the saints?

Yes. They hold to much of those things that we have in common with Rome.

There are some Anglo-Catholics in the canonical Canterburian communion. On the other hand, there are some so Anglo-Catholic and oppose to the ordination of women that they left and formed their own independent jurisdictions in response to ECUSA starting to ordain women as priests in the mid 70's. This group appears to be of the latter type.
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« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2010, 05:01:18 AM »

I do know that more than a few of these "Anglican/Episcopalian" parishes have decided to join Holy Orthodoxy. Here in Denver, at least one of the Western Rite churches was a few years ago entirely Episcopalian, if not two entire parishes.

Perhaps the conservative views, the loose connection with the Anglican Church and the icons you point out signal them as potentially very close to the Church? It doesn't require many concessions for Episcopalians to become Orthodox. My best friend's father gifted him a Book of Common Prayer, and, really, it isn't much of a different liturgy than pre-Vatican-II Roman liturgy upon investigation. But I suppose it depends mostly on apostolic succession, which apparently the Orthodox Church accepts of many of them.

God works in mysterious ways, it has been said.
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« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2010, 07:44:23 PM »

I do know that more than a few of these "Anglican/Episcopalian" parishes have decided to join Holy Orthodoxy. Here in Denver, at least one of the Western Rite churches was a few years ago entirely Episcopalian, if not two entire parishes.

Perhaps the conservative views, the loose connection with the Anglican Church and the icons you point out signal them as potentially very close to the Church? It doesn't require many concessions for Episcopalians to become Orthodox. My best friend's father gifted him a Book of Common Prayer, and, really, it isn't much of a different liturgy than pre-Vatican-II Roman liturgy upon investigation. But I suppose it depends mostly on apostolic succession, which apparently the Orthodox Church accepts of many of them.

God works in mysterious ways, it has been said.

My impression of the whole High-Church Anglican movement is that it's basically Orthodox, at least on paper, with the only major difference being their ecclesiology. I've known more than one Anglican who was convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy, including an English bishop. (We were both part of a group visiting holy places in Russia.) He even believed he had seen an icon of Christ in Jerusalem moving its eyes! What kept him from converting was his high position in the Church of Engand.

I believe the Orthodoxification of the CoE goes back to the Oxford Movement, which involved a revival of the Fathers.
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« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2010, 08:05:20 PM »

What kept him from converting was his high position in the Church of Engand.
Orthodoxy doesn't accept high-positioned converts from the CoE? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2010, 08:25:21 PM »

What kept him from converting was his high position in the Church of Engand.
Orthodoxy doesn't accept high-positioned converts from the CoE? Roll Eyes
No, CoE pensions and Episcopalian retire funds prove quite an anchor. Once vested, many then convert.
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2010, 09:27:15 PM »

What kept him from converting was his high position in the Church of Engand.
Orthodoxy doesn't accept high-positioned converts from the CoE? Roll Eyes
No, CoE pensions and Episcopalian retire funds prove quite an anchor. Once vested, many then convert.

Yes, I think it had to do with losing his pension of he left the CoE.
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