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« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2010, 07:37:33 AM »

Well as you are thinking, do not think of us the easy way out and the wide gate and broad road.  If the Supreme Pontiff means so much to you, than you are compelled to accept his Corban factories. The Orthodox Church is not in the business of providing end runs around the Vatican's teaching on divorce (which much we agree with) and remarriage (where we differ, but not in the way you seem to think).

Thanks for the advice  Wink

Your mindset seems to be very traditional Roman Catholic in the way you deal with people.

a little less assumption and judgement, and you might actually come across as a friendly chap  Tongue
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« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2010, 07:38:59 AM »

I wonder if Dogma did a drive by......and just vanished...... Grin

 Cheesy
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« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2010, 07:43:35 AM »

“after the resurrection of our Savior from the dead and His assumption into heaven, the Apostles, who had been sent forth by Him, as He Himself had been sent forth by the Father, into all the world, and had received all authority to bind and loose and all the gracious gifts of the All-holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, they not only possessed the name of Apostle by virtue of the facts of themselves, but indeed even the name of Bishop (overseer) as sacred Epiphanius bears witness (Her. 27):  ‘First were Peter and Paul, these two Apostles and Bishops’” (Pedalion 2)


Dear FatherHLL

Accepting the above, during the meal at the shore - the other Apostles were present, and yet Our Lord said only unto Peter :-

St John 21

[11] Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land, full of great fishes, one hundred and fifty-three. And although there were so many, the net was not broken. [12] Jesus saith to them: Come, and dine. And none of them who were at meat, durst ask him: Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord. [13] And Jesus cometh and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish in like manner. [14] This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to his disciples, after he was risen from the dead. [15] When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.

[16] He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. [17] He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep. [18] Amen, amen I say to thee, when thou wast younger, thou didst gird thyself, and didst walk where thou wouldst. But when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and lead thee whither thou wouldst not. [19] And this he said, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had said this, he saith to him: Follow me. [20] Peter turning about, saw that disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also leaned on his breast at supper, and said: Lord, who is he that shall betray thee?


[21] Him therefore when Peter had seen, he saith to Jesus: Lord, and what shall this man do? [22] Jesus saith to him: So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee? follow thou me. [23] This saying therefore went abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die. And Jesus did not say to him: He should not die; but, So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee? [24] This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things, and hath written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. [25] But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.




[17] "Feed my sheep"... Our Lord had promised the spiritual supremacy to St. Peter; St. Matt. 16. 19; and here he fulfils that promise, by charging him with the superintendency of all his sheep, without exception; and consequently of his whole flock, that is, of his own church.



?

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« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2010, 07:48:57 AM »

Pope Saint Gregory the Great believed that the Blessed Peter had established
three Petrine Sees of equal authority - Rome, Alexandria, Antioch.

This Triptarchy existed prior to the now familiar Pentarchy, and it is connected
with a belief in a Petrine foundation for each of these three major Sees.


Note well what the Pope says here in his letter to Eulogius of Alexandria:

1. The parts where the Pope speaks of Alexandria and Antioch sharing
the keys with Rome

2. The parts where the Pope speaks of the equality of Rome and
Alexandria and Antioch

3. The parts where the Pope says that all three of these Sees form one
See of Peter over which the three bishops preside.

This letter of Pope Gregory the Great is one you'll never see quoted in Catholic literature
on Petrine authority and the Keys!  :-)

-oOo-

St Gregory I, Pope of Rome, Epistle XL, writing to Pope Eulogius
Patriarch of Alexandria.

"Your most sweet Holiness [Eulogius of Alexandria] has spoken
much in your letter to me about the chair of Saint Peter, Prince
of the apostles
, saying that he himself now sits on it in the
persons of his successors.

"And indeed I acknowledge myself to be unworthy, not only in the
dignity of such as preside, but even in the number of such as stand.
But I gladly accepted all that has been said, in that he has spoken to
me about Peter's chair who occupies Peter's chair. …And to him it is
said by the voice of the Truth, To thee I will give the keys of the
kingdom of heaven (Matth. xvi. 19). And again it is said to him, And
when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren (xxii. 32). And once
more, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou Me? Feed my sheep (
Joh. xxi.
17).

"Wherefore though there are many apostles, yet with regard to the
principality itself the See of the Prince of the apostles alone has
grown strong in authority, which in three places is the See of one.

"For he himself [Peter] exalted the See in which he deigned even to
rest and end the present life [Rome]
. He himself adorned the See to
which he sent his disciple as evangelist [Alexandria]. He himself
established the See in which, though he was to leave it, he sat for
seven years [Antioch]. Since then it is the See of one, and one See,
over which by Divine authority three bishops now preside, whatever
good I hear of you, this I impute to myself.”

 (Book VII, Epistle XL)



Dear Irish Hermit,

How does your quotation refute the Papacy ?


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« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2010, 07:51:30 AM »

Christ talked to Peter alone baceause the others did not disavow Him as Peter did and Christ ordering Peter to 'feed His sheep' made Peter to rennounce his triple betrayal. Other Apostles didn't need it.
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« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2010, 07:52:12 AM »

If I understand the Roman Catholic viewpoint correctly, it has nothing to do the following:

1) that St. Peter played a part in the founding the church in Rome

2) the See of Peter is at Rome

and it has everything do with:

1) Peter had the Keys to the Kingdom, and when he died, he established his 'Office' in Rome, so that is where the keys were left.  And this 'Office' of Peter is different than the 'See' of Peter, since as we know, Gregory already stated that the See of Peter includes the Sees of Rome, Antioch and Alexandraia...three Sees are One See of Peter.  But again, this would then be different from the 'Office' of St. Peter.

Is that correct?  Is the 'Office' of Peter different than the 'See' of Peter?




The Pope is also the "Bishop of Rome".

Other than that I can't really answer further.

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« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2010, 07:56:00 AM »

Christ talked to Peter alone baceause the others did not disavow Him as Peter did and Christ ordering Peter to 'feed His sheep' made Peter to rennounce his triple betrayal. Other Apostles didn't need it.


OK, I see your point. They all abandoned him though at the cross.   

The only ones who were loyal unto death were the Holy Theotokos, a young virgin boy and a Prostitute !



(Other than John the whole assembly of Bishops did a runner !  )
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Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2010, 07:58:43 AM »

Pope Saint Gregory the Great believed that the Blessed Peter had established
three Petrine Sees of equal authority - Rome, Alexandria, Antioch.

This Triptarchy existed prior to the now familiar Pentarchy, and it is connected
with a belief in a Petrine foundation for each of these three major Sees.


Note well what the Pope says here in his letter to Eulogius of Alexandria:

1. The parts where the Pope speaks of Alexandria and Antioch sharing
the keys with Rome

2. The parts where the Pope speaks of the equality of Rome and
Alexandria and Antioch

3. The parts where the Pope says that all three of these Sees form one
See of Peter over which the three bishops preside.

This letter of Pope Gregory the Great is one you'll never see quoted in Catholic literature
on Petrine authority and the Keys!  :-)

-oOo-

St Gregory I, Pope of Rome, Epistle XL, writing to Pope Eulogius
Patriarch of Alexandria.

"Your most sweet Holiness [Eulogius of Alexandria] has spoken
much in your letter to me about the chair of Saint Peter, Prince
of the apostles
, saying that he himself now sits on it in the
persons of his successors.

"And indeed I acknowledge myself to be unworthy, not only in the
dignity of such as preside, but even in the number of such as stand.
But I gladly accepted all that has been said, in that he has spoken to
me about Peter's chair who occupies Peter's chair. …And to him it is
said by the voice of the Truth, To thee I will give the keys of the
kingdom of heaven (Matth. xvi. 19). And again it is said to him, And
when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren (xxii. 32). And once
more, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou Me? Feed my sheep (
Joh. xxi.
17).

"Wherefore though there are many apostles, yet with regard to the
principality itself the See of the Prince of the apostles alone has
grown strong in authority, which in three places is the See of one.

"For he himself [Peter] exalted the See in which he deigned even to
rest and end the present life [Rome]
. He himself adorned the See to
which he sent his disciple as evangelist [Alexandria]. He himself
established the See in which, though he was to leave it, he sat for
seven years [Antioch]. Since then it is the See of one, and one See,
over which by Divine authority three bishops now preside, whatever
good I hear of you, this I impute to myself.”

 (Book VII, Epistle XL)



Dear Irish Hermit,

How does your quotation refute the Papacy ?




I was really addressing your question about the Keys, and the letter from Pope Saint Gregory shows that he did not see the Keys as belonging only to Rome and only to himself.

However, for those people who believe that the Keys belong only to the Papacy, Saint Gregory's words would be a refutation of that.

The Pope of Rome affirms that the Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria also occupies Peter's Chair just as he does.
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Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2010, 08:07:13 AM »

“after the resurrection of our Savior from the dead and His assumption into heaven, the Apostles, who had been sent forth by Him, as He Himself had been sent forth by the Father, into all the world, and had received all authority to bind and loose and all the gracious gifts of the All-holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, they not only possessed the name of Apostle by virtue of the facts of themselves, but indeed even the name of Bishop (overseer) as sacred Epiphanius bears witness (Her. 27):  ‘First were Peter and Paul, these two Apostles and Bishops’” (Pedalion 2)


Dear FatherHLL

Accepting the above, during the meal at the shore - the other Apostles were present, and yet Our Lord said only unto Peter :-

St John 21

[11] Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land, full of great fishes, one hundred and fifty-three. And although there were so many, the net was not broken. [12] Jesus saith to them: Come, and dine. And none of them who were at meat, durst ask him: Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord. [13] And Jesus cometh and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish in like manner. [14] This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to his disciples, after he was risen from the dead. [15] When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.

[16] He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. [17] He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep. [18] Amen, amen I say to thee, when thou wast younger, thou didst gird thyself, and didst walk where thou wouldst. But when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and lead thee whither thou wouldst not. [19] And this he said, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had said this, he saith to him: Follow me. [20] Peter turning about, saw that disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also leaned on his breast at supper, and said: Lord, who is he that shall betray thee?


[21] Him therefore when Peter had seen, he saith to Jesus: Lord, and what shall this man do? [22] Jesus saith to him: So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee? follow thou me. [23] This saying therefore went abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die. And Jesus did not say to him: He should not die; but, So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee? [24] This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things, and hath written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. [25] But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.




[17] "Feed my sheep"... Our Lord had promised the spiritual supremacy to St. Peter; St. Matt. 16. 19; and here he fulfils that promise, by charging him with the superintendency of all his sheep, without exception; and consequently of his whole flock, that is, of his own church.



?



Saint John Chrysostom speaks of the triple "Do you love me?" as balancing and cancelling Saint Peter's triple denial in the courtayrd when Christ had been arrested.    Look for his commentary on John 21.  It's bound to be on the Net on CCEL.

The triple "Do you love me?" was actually a moment of shame for Peter and that is why he does not rush in in his usual enthusiastic way and answer "Yes, Lord, I love you more than these."  Instead he replies with a much more subdued, and even kind of plaintive, "Lord, you know that I love you."

Why? Because our Lord is reminding him that at the last supper Peter had vainly boasted that he loved Him more than the other Apostles - and yet a few hours later his boast was proven to be empty and Peter committed an an act of betrayal and denied Christ in the courtyard of the High Priest.

Our Lord's triple question, "Do you love me?" is His compassionate way of cancelling the triple betrayal of Peter at the time of His trial and allowing Peter to redeem himself.  It was also His way of restoring Peter to the office of an Apostle, and I imagine that is why it took place in front of the Apostles so that they were aware of Peter's restoration as one of their number.
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« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2010, 08:09:22 AM »

OK, I see your point. They all abandoned him though at the cross.   

The only ones who were loyal unto death were the Holy Theotokos, a young virgin boy and a Prostitute !



(Other than John the whole assembly of Bishops did a runner !  )

Fear is not the same as active denial.

BTW Who was that prostitute?
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« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2010, 08:54:28 AM »

Well as you are thinking, do not think of us the easy way out and the wide gate and broad road.  If the Supreme Pontiff means so much to you, than you are compelled to accept his Corban factories. The Orthodox Church is not in the business of providing end runs around the Vatican's teaching on divorce (which much we agree with) and remarriage (where we differ, but not in the way you seem to think).

Thanks for the advice  Wink

Your mindset seems to be very traditional Roman Catholic in the way you deal with people.

a little less assumption and judgement, and you might actually come across as a friendly chap  Tongue

I haven't assumed anything.
Hi guys

Background: lapsed Catholic.  Disheartened by many things about the RC Church, main one being a lack of what you would call "ekonomia" to those that don't tick all the boxes.  but God help you if you married in good faith, had children and then got cheated on and dumped (divorced).  God help you if you want to remarry !


I am not divorced, but have fallen in love with and wish to marry a divorcee.....all my traditional Catholic insurances policies have gone to pot !  Cry  It is very easy to accept dogmas / doctrine if it hasn't personally effected you   Wink

I am attracted to many things about the Orthodox Church, but I have one main problem.............

I know that in "traditional Roman Catholic" circles find sanctimonyy quite popular, congratualing themselves on how the Vatican tribunal's don't allow divorce, while the Orthodox allow divorce and contraception (the two are always linked, at least in their propoganda). Somehow one can through the Corban factory multiple times and come out white as snow.  The Orthodox Church won't bless a marriage after the third time, whatever the reason for the end of the first two.

"God help you if you married in good faith, had children and then got cheated on and dumped (divorced)." Been there, done that."  My ex-wife insisted that she had to get married to her partner in adultery (who was also married, and attending the Vatican church) in church: it was important "to [her] that [they] get married before the altar of God....whether Orthodox or Catholic [sic]"  Her (Orthodox) father confessor told her not to come back.  He told me that it was "odd that she filed for divorce when" I "had all the grounds":"we're far, FAR beyond adultery."  In the meantime the secretary at work was also the victim of adultery, and yet he filed for divorce (and had police with flood lights etc. serve her).  In the settlement he was supposed to pay for the annullment, but he refused to cooperate when she got the paperwork.  When she went to talk to priest where the ex hubby was parish council member and other offices, the 'father" told her that if he had to discipline everyone who were committing adultery, he'd loose half the parish.  He remarried and now has a kid last I taked to her about it.

So you say that you are a disheartened follower of the Vatican, but yet speak of having "traditional Catholic insurance policies."  If you were "lapsed Catholic," what is the problem.  If lapsed, why would you care what the Vatican thinks, or have it bless your marriage?  If your intended still cares, then they have "accepted doctrines/dogmas that personally affect" her/him, in which case why aren't they dating?  It's not like, say, the Orthodox Church in America (where they don't bother with examining the dissolution of marriage, holding out the hope of reconiliation, unless a remarriage is contemplated), the Antiochean Archdiocese of North America (which a few years ago directed that before a remarriage the priest must first determine if the contemplated marriage arises from an affair of the first, in which case no marriage can be blessed) etc.  You can go to the Corban factory as soon as the divorce is finalized, and then go date with a "clear conscience" as much as you like.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2010, 08:59:18 AM »

Christ talked to Peter alone baceause the others did not disavow Him as Peter did and Christ ordering Peter to 'feed His sheep' made Peter to rennounce his triple betrayal. Other Apostles didn't need it.


OK, I see your point. They all abandoned him though at the cross.   

The only ones who were loyal unto death were the Holy Theotokos, a young virgin boy and a Prostitute !



(Other than John the whole assembly of Bishops did a runner !  )
"Very traditional Roman Catholic" circles make much of the number of times St. Peter is mentioned by name. Not so much about the fact that the largest number of those top billings deal with his denial of the Lord, IIRC the only story of St. Peter recorded in all four Gospels.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2010, 09:39:38 AM »

Well as you are thinking, do not think of us the easy way out and the wide gate and broad road.  If the Supreme Pontiff means so much to you, than you are compelled to accept his Corban factories. The Orthodox Church is not in the business of providing end runs around the Vatican's teaching on divorce (which much we agree with) and remarriage (where we differ, but not in the way you seem to think).

Thanks for the advice  Wink

Your mindset seems to be very traditional Roman Catholic in the way you deal with people.

a little less assumption and judgement, and you might actually come across as a friendly chap  Tongue

I haven't assumed anything.
Hi guys

Background: lapsed Catholic.  Disheartened by many things about the RC Church, main one being a lack of what you would call "ekonomia" to those that don't tick all the boxes.  but God help you if you married in good faith, had children and then got cheated on and dumped (divorced).  God help you if you want to remarry !


I am not divorced, but have fallen in love with and wish to marry a divorcee.....all my traditional Catholic insurances policies have gone to pot !  Cry  It is very easy to accept dogmas / doctrine if it hasn't personally effected you   Wink

I am attracted to many things about the Orthodox Church, but I have one main problem.............

I know that in "traditional Roman Catholic" circles find sanctimonyy quite popular, congratualing themselves on how the Vatican tribunal's don't allow divorce, while the Orthodox allow divorce and contraception (the two are always linked, at least in their propoganda). Somehow one can through the Corban factory multiple times and come out white as snow.  The Orthodox Church won't bless a marriage after the third time, whatever the reason for the end of the first two.

"God help you if you married in good faith, had children and then got cheated on and dumped (divorced)." Been there, done that."  My ex-wife insisted that she had to get married to her partner in adultery (who was also married, and attending the Vatican church) in church: it was important "to [her] that [they] get married before the altar of God....whether Orthodox or Catholic [sic]"  Her (Orthodox) father confessor told her not to come back.  He told me that it was "odd that she filed for divorce when" I "had all the grounds":"we're far, FAR beyond adultery."  In the meantime the secretary at work was also the victim of adultery, and yet he filed for divorce (and had police with flood lights etc. serve her).  In the settlement he was supposed to pay for the annullment, but he refused to cooperate when she got the paperwork.  When she went to talk to priest where the ex hubby was parish council member and other offices, the 'father" told her that if he had to discipline everyone who were committing adultery, he'd loose half the parish.  He remarried and now has a kid last I taked to her about it.

So you say that you are a disheartened follower of the Vatican, but yet speak of having "traditional Catholic insurance policies."  If you were "lapsed Catholic," what is the problem.  If lapsed, why would you care what the Vatican thinks, or have it bless your marriage?  If your intended still cares, then they have "accepted doctrines/dogmas that personally affect" her/him, in which case why aren't they dating?  It's not like, say, the Orthodox Church in America (where they don't bother with examining the dissolution of marriage, holding out the hope of reconiliation, unless a remarriage is contemplated), the Antiochean Archdiocese of North America (which a few years ago directed that before a remarriage the priest must first determine if the contemplated marriage arises from an affair of the first, in which case no marriage can be blessed) etc.  You can go to the Corban factory as soon as the divorce is finalized, and then go date with a "clear conscience" as much as you like.


Apologies - this obviously has effected you.


Also , I suppose I am outside of the RC tick list now, rather than lapsed.  I converted from atheism a few years ago, based on "The Keys".


Thanks for your input  ialmisry
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« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2010, 09:43:13 AM »

OK, I see your point. They all abandoned him though at the cross.   

The only ones who were loyal unto death were the Holy Theotokos, a young virgin boy and a Prostitute !



(Other than John the whole assembly of Bishops did a runner !  )

Fear is not the same as active denial.

BTW Who was that prostitute?

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« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2010, 09:55:25 AM »

Who on Earth put into your head the fact St. Mary Magdalene was a prostitute Huh
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« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2010, 10:06:55 AM »

Who on Earth put into your head the fact St. Mary Magdalene was a prostitute Huh

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09761a.htm


Does it scandalise you that the one who loved Jesus more than any other Apostle was a common prostitute ?

She was forgiven much, and loved much

Jesus loved the outcast and sinners....don't forget either that the Good Samaritan was a heretic !
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« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2010, 10:14:09 AM »

Anyway, back to the Keys.  I am only being honest,  people have made me rethink a few things, but I am still not convinced.

Seriously guys.

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« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2010, 10:18:07 AM »


Saint John Chrysostom speaks of the triple "Do you love me?" as balancing and cancelling Saint Peter's triple denial in the courtayrd when Christ had been arrested.    Look for his commentary on John 21.  It's bound to be on the Net on CCEL.

The triple "Do you love me?" was actually a moment of shame for Peter and that is why he does not rush in in his usual enthusiastic way and answer "Yes, Lord, I love you more than these."  Instead he replies with a much more subdued, and even kind of plaintive, "Lord, you know that I love you."

Why? Because our Lord is reminding him that at the last supper Peter had vainly boasted that he loved Him more than the other Apostles - and yet a few hours later his boast was proven to be empty and Peter committed an an act of betrayal and denied Christ in the courtyard of the High Priest.

Our Lord's triple question, "Do you love me?" is His compassionate way of cancelling the triple betrayal of Peter at the time of His trial and allowing Peter to redeem himself.  It was also His way of restoring Peter to the office of an Apostle, and I imagine that is why it took place in front of the Apostles so that they were aware of Peter's restoration as one of their number.


Very interesting...thanks for this Irish,
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« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2010, 10:42:42 AM »

I converted from atheism a few years ago, based on "The Keys".

Ah. Well that was an improvement.

As to the true meaning of the Keys and the Vatican claims thereon:
Oh, the Vatican says it quite clear in Lumen Gentium, as seen above.  Btw, Augustus only bore the title of Princeps "First Citizen," claiming that he was only the first servant of the state.  Everyone knew otherwise.

Wow. Lumen Gentium makes it pretty clear. The Pope (according to Catholic belief) does not merely hold a place of honor, but a primacy of power and universal jurisdiction.

That is not the belief of the pre-schism Church.
Amen! Amen! Amen!

This is the Faith of the pre-schism Church:
When he was Orthodox. We still would "follow" him, if he followed the Fathers. Let him confess the Orthodox Faith, and he shall be first.

St. Symeon of Thessalonica (15th cent., after the sack of Constantinople) writes:

One should not contradict the Latins when they say that the Bishop of Rome is the first. This primacy is not harmful to the Church. Let them only prove his faithfulness to the faith of Peter and to that of the successors of Peter. If it is so, let him enjoy all the privileges of pontiff ... Let the Bishop of Rome be succesor of the orthodoxy of Sylvester and Agatho, of Leo, Liberius, Martin and Gregory, then we also will call him Apostolic and first among other bishops; then we also will obey him, not only as Peter, but as the Savior Himself
.....
Usurping as his own possession the Catholic Church of Christ, by occupancy, as he boasts, of the Episcopal Throne of St. Peter, he desires to deceive the more simple into apostasy from Orthodoxy, choosing for the basis of all theological instruction these paradoxical words (p. 10, 1.29): "nor is there any reason why ye refuse a return to the true Church and Communion with this my holy Throne"...As to the supremacy, since we are not setting forth a treatise, let the same great Basil present the matter in a f'ew words, "I preferred to address myself to Him who is Head over them."..For all this we have esteemed it our paternal and brotherly need, and a sacred duty, by our present admonition to confirm you in the Orthodoxy you hold from your forefathers, and at the same time point out the emptiness of the syllogisms of the Bishop of Rome, of which he is manifestly himself aware. For not from his Apostolic Confession does he glorify his Throne, but from his Apostolic Throne seeks to establish his dignity, and from his dignity, his Confession. The truth is the other way... But if his Holiness had sent us statements concordant and in unison with the seven holy Ecumenical Councils, instead of boasting of the piety of his predecessors lauded by our predecessors and fathers in an Ecumenical Council, he might justly have gloried in his own orthodoxy, declaring his own goodness instead of that of his fathers. Therefore let his Holiness be assured, that if, even now, he will write us such things as two hundred fathers on investigation and inquiry shall find consonant and agreeing with the said former Councils, then, we say, he shall hear from us sinners today, not only, "Peter has so spoken," or anything of like honor, but this also, "Let the holy hand be kissed which has wiped away the tears of the Catholic Church."
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx

The best analogy I've ever seen is this:
Quote
Here it is obvious that the faith was kept at Rome, by those who resort there from all quarters. She was a mirror of the Catholic World, owing here orthodoxy to them; not the Sun, dispensing her own light to others, but the glass bringing their rays into a focus.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.iv.html
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« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2010, 10:58:32 AM »

Who on Earth put into your head the fact St. Mary Magdalene was a prostitute Huh

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09761a.htm


Does it scandalise you that the one who loved Jesus more than any other Apostle was a common prostitute ?

She was forgiven much, and loved much

Jesus loved the outcast and sinners....don't forget either that the Good Samaritan was a heretic !
 Smiley


Reread the article you have linked. Especially this:
Quote
The Greek Fathers, as a whole, distinguish the three persons:

    * the "sinner" of Luke 7:36-50;
    * the sister of Martha and Lazarus, Luke 10:38-42 and John 11; and
    * Mary Magdalen.

On the other hand most of the Latins hold that these three were one and the same. Protestant critics, however, believe there were two, if not three, distinct persons. It is impossible to demonstrate the identity of the three; but those commentators undoubtedly go too far who assert, as does Westcott (on John 11:1), "that the identity of Mary with Mary Magdalene is a mere conjecture supported by no direct evidence, and opposed to the general tenour of the gospels."
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« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2011, 12:26:04 PM »

Anyway, back to the Keys.  I am only being honest,  people have made me rethink a few things, but I am still not convinced.

Seriously guys.



And he speaks of Saint Andrew -"For the Son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master’s bosom, with much confidence, this man now comes forward to us now”

-Saint John Chrysostom, “Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 1.1”

quoted in Schaff, P, “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers” (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume XIV, p1.

Also at: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-1....htm#P175_1913

Forgive me...
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« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2011, 02:04:01 PM »

On this one:

This has been dealt with a lot (including on St. Chrysostom's words on St. James and St. John, in addition to St. Peter). For an example:
Witega, you seem to say the Fathers often understood references to Peter as meaning the whole group of Apostles.  Does that apply here with Chrysostom's quote?

I found this quote, on the topic of it not only applying to the whole group of Apostles, but also to the lowly bishop of a rural town way down in the stix of Upper Egypt:

Due to the ongoing debate on the Fourth Council, I by chance was reaquainted with a text I thought appropriate here.  It is from the "Life of Shenoute" by his disciple St. Besa.  St. Shenoute's writings were the examplar of Coptic literature, but his chief claim to fame was cracking his staff over Nestorius' head at the Council of Ephesus.  In one episode, "One day," Besa says, "our father Shenoute and our Lord Jesus were sitting down talking together" (a very common occurance according to the Vita) and the Bishop of Shmin came wishing to meet the abbot.  When Shenoute sent word that he was too busy to come to the bishop, the bishop got angry and threatened to excommunicate him for disobedience:

Quote
The servant went to our father [Shenouti] and said to him what the bishop had told him.  But my father smiled graciously with laughter and said: "See what this man of flesh and blood has said! Behold, here sitting with me is he who created heaven and earth! I will not go while I am with him." But the Savior said to my father: "O Shenoute, arise and go out to the bishop, lest he excommunicate you. Otherwise, I cannot let you enter [heaven] because of the covenant I made with Peter, saying 'What you will bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and what you will loose on earth will be loosed in heaven' [Matthew 16:19].  When my father heard these words of the Savior, he arose, went out to the bishop and greeted him.

 Besa, Life of Shenoute 70-72 (trans. Bell). On the context of this story see Behlmer 1998, esp. pp. 353-354. Gaddis, There is No Crime for those who have Christ, p. 296
http://books.google.com/books?id=JGEibDA8el4C

Now this dates not only before the schism of East-West, and the Schism of Chalcedon, but nearly the Schism of Ephesus.  Now Shmin is just a town in southern Egypt, and the bishop there just a suffragan of Alexandria.  So it would seem to be odd if the Vatican's interpretation of Matthew 16:19 were the ancient one why this would be applied to a bishop far from Rome, in a land where St. Peter never founded any Church.  But it makes perfect sense from the Orthodox interpretation of Matthew 16:19, and indeed, according to "the Catholic Encyclopedia," the overwhelming consensus of the Fathers.
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« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2011, 02:08:00 PM »

Anyway, back to the Keys.  I am only being honest,  people have made me rethink a few things, but I am still not convinced.

Seriously guys.



And he speaks of Saint Andrew -"For the Son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master’s bosom, with much confidence, this man now comes forward to us now”

-Saint John Chrysostom, “Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 1.1”

quoted in Schaff, P, “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers” (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume XIV, p1.

Also at: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-1....htm#P175_1913

Forgive me...
Actually, he is speaking of St. John.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf114.iv.iii.html
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2011, 03:03:33 PM »

Anyway, back to the Keys.  I am only being honest,  people have made me rethink a few things, but I am still not convinced.

Seriously guys.



And he speaks of Saint Andrew -"For the Son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master’s bosom, with much confidence, this man now comes forward to us now”

-Saint John Chrysostom, “Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 1.1”

quoted in Schaff, P, “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers” (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume XIV, p1.

Also at: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-1....htm#P175_1913

Forgive me...

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